#anti Aerys II Targaryen

[the-daily-dreamer]

The targaryen ruled 130 years without dragons. And the most capable kings were all targaryen. After them it was a decline for the throne. Robert, joffrey, tommen, cercei were all sith ruler .

I see targ stans are investing in high quality air to fill their heads lol

But anyways. “The most capable kings were all targaryens”. You know who else were targaryens? The worst rulers of Westeros. Robert, Cersei, Joffrey, and Tommen aren’t even close to the worst kings and queen to rule. And bringing them up as evidence to show that the targaryens are good is so disingenuous.

Maegor the Cruel, Aegon the Unworthy, The Mad King Aerys, Rhaenyra (yes, I know that’s controversial), and Daenerys (yes, I know that’s even more controversial) are all far FAR worse than anyone you mentioned.

Maegor killed his wife and her entire family. He was a usurper (apparently it’s good when the targs you like do it lol), a kinslayer (also a thing only good when it’s targs you like doing it), raped and tortured many people, wiped out entire houses, killed any and everyone that he saw in any way as deserving, and created a huge war with the faith of the seven.

Aegon the unworthy was corrupt and lazy and legitimized his bastards leading to the blackfyre rebellions that led to endless bloodshed for 5 generations.

Aerys was so bad he had a rebellion staged against him that ended his family dynasty. He burned fathers and sons together. He tortured people and burned them alive. He abused and raped his wife when he would burn people alive. He wanted to kill the entire city of kings landing.

Rhaenyra (who like it or not went down in history as one of the worst rulers) known as maegor with teats taxed her people to starvation. She had daily executions. She had knights inquisitors hunt down and punish people.

Daenerys burnt down kings landing, was complicit in the rape and enslavement of hundreds, ruined city economies so badly slavery was a better option, then profited from said slavery, abandoned the people she conquered (no doubt ensuring they will be enslaved much more harshly after supporting her), raped a “free” slave that she admits still acted like a slave because that’s all she knew, oh yeah and again, SHE BURNT DOWN KINGS LANDING. And this is after the people you listed.

And this isn’t including non Targaryen rulers that ruined lives like the blackfyres. Or rulers that are bad but weirdly beloved like Aegon I who basically conquered people by threatening to kill them and everyone they loved, subjugating a country for hundreds of years.

The best rulers I admit were Targaryens. But that’s because they were the only rulers save for 4 people. Of those four, two were bad and two were incompetent. Not nearly the sadistic “mad” people I described above. And funnily enough, as soon as a Targaryen came back to power…things got worse again. Funny how that is.

Oh and by the way. Going with the histories of Westeros. Guess who is among the best rulers according to small folk Aegon II and Alicent. Seethe :)

[johannawesterling]

I just remembered that Benjen was twelve years old when Robert's Rebellion happened. He would have been the Stark in Winterfell during the actual war. And then when it was over, he probably didn't understand for a long time why his father, Brandon, and Lyanna were not coming home.

[atopvisenyashill]

If Jaehaerys was all about minimizing the power of Targaryen daughters but marrying them off to less-than-ideal suitors (love that idea), how do you think that applies to the match of Rhaenys and Corlys? Does it, even? Or does it need to, given expected Rhaenys's station at the time? He says she couldn't have picked a better man.

And, also, do you think this can be applied to Daemon's match with Rhea?

LETS DIG INNNN okay this got so longgggg but i was trying to be fair while also discussing like, so much sex crime-

So like the post said re: Alyssa & Baelon’s marriage, I think there's some interference from Alysanne here. Especially early on in their marriage, before she's made it clear that she can in fact live without his ass, I think we have several cases where he's ~indulging~ Alysanne's more romantic ideas about what ruling should look like and what being a targaryen should be about. Giving her wins that ultimately don’t cost him much (before she starts asking for things he doesn’t approve of).

I think by the time Rhaenys marries Corlys, Jaehaerys has already written her off as a potential heir, but if he denies her marriage to Corlys, that risks not only pissing off Corlys - who imo already has A Whole Thing about being Just As Valyrian As The Targaryens, so he will take offense - but also tips Alysanne off to the fact that he has no intention of letting the crown pass to Rhaenys or her sons. He knows this is a sore spot for her because she insisted that little Daenerys be considered crown princess and heir over Aemon, and Jaehaerys already brushed her off about that. So if he tries to marry Rhaenys off to like, a Tully who already has three heirs or some random Darry, Alysanne is going to argue that Rhaenys deserves a much loftier match given her status, and get really paranoid about why Rhaenys is getting a shitty match. I think he's trying to put off naming Baelon as his/Aemon’s heir for as long as possible because he knows it's going to be a fight, especially given that Alysanne is usually the one in charge of marriages, and this has precedent (that marriages are the Queen's domain - Visenya and Rhaenys made marriage matches as well).

But also. I think (and I can't believe I'm gonna do my man Ned dirty like this) that like Ned (bleh), Jaehaerys learns the "wrong lesson" from his sister. Rhaena married extremely beneath her and that caused major problems for her, so Jaehaerys is making sure that Rhaenys doesn't marry far beneath her as well. Because see, Rhaena spends much of her life miserable, without a direction in life, without even a castle to her name that she can hide out in. Everything that is hers is actually Jaehaerys' and it eats away at her until the day she dies. Beyond that, keeping Rhaena on as a guest is expensive because people want to see her, because she comes with her own household, and because she has a whole ass dragon that needs to be fed. So even if she wanted to live off the goodwill of others, that goodwill runs out quick due to logistics. She only gets Harrenhal because Maegor Towers is sickly and the last of his line, and even then, it's not really hers - it belongs to the crown.

I think Jaehaerys looked at how unhappy she was and what a huge pain in the ass it was, and figures he needs to give Rhaenys a consolation prize in a way he doesn’t need to give to the younger daughters, bc they never had a chance to inherit. Rhaenys has assumed the crown will pass if not to her then to her son, as has Alysanne, and I think its likely Aemon and Jocelyn also assumed that the crown would pass to Rhaenys' eventual son. Jaehaerys can’t just deny her all the trappings of being crown princess/mother to a king and expect her to take it lying down. And to be clear, I do think there’s some emotional aspect to this - I think he did feel guilty over stealing Rhaena’s crown and throne even if he felt he was doing it ~for the good of the realm bc Aegon had died. When Rhaena makes her “you are rhaenys i am visenya i have always known this” comment, she nails the dynamic, but I think Rhaena being the ~rejected bride~ does hurt Jaehaerys - she deserved, in his eyes, to grow old with their brother and have the power of a queen consort. BUT. At the same time, he’s a raging violent misogynist who believes Alysanne is the only exception to her gender, that it is simply right and natural that a woman only derives power from her husband. It’s why Baelon gets to claim Balerion when he’s young, but Alyssa is barred until her wedding. A dragon is a responsibility, a realm is a burden, and in his eyes Alyssa Velaryon, Rhaena, and Visenya all failed to live up to the challenge. So yes, he wants something good for Rhaenys - he wants her to have a happier life than Rhaena did, and he’s willing to gamble just like he did with the Baelon/Alyssa marriage, and indulge Rhaenys and Alysanne in giving her a dragon and a husband who could back her claim because she needs something to keep her calm when he inevitably usurps her, in contrast to the way Rhaena had absolutely nothing to distract her from her misery. And his gamble pays off is the thing - he neutralizes her dragon and her husband bc Corlys is off fighting still when the announcement is made, and Rhaenys is heavily pregnant and probably not really riding Meleys. He figured - bc of his love for Alyssa, Alysanne, and Rhaenys, however goddamn deranged and ultimately meaningless that love is - that he could move the pieces enough to get the outcome he thought was best and he was right!

For Daemon's part, I do think this is part of why Alysanne ships him off to the Vale yes. Notable to me that every marriage match does have a seat of their own, even if it's not an important one, unlike second son Androw Farman - Daella would have gotten the Eyrie, Viserra would have gotten White Harbor, and while none of Saera's matches were lofty they were all heirs with nice enough seats. But Daemon would run into a similar problem where it would be too expensive to keep him around if he marries some random noble lady living with her dad, but if he marries too high up that’s just as bad, so giving him an heiress and then kicking him the fuck out is a good way to deal with him.

BUT. I actually do have a conspiracy theory here that something happened at KL that caused a huge stir within the family and Alysanne dealt with it by shipping Daemon off. What happened? Well...obviously I think Viserys and Daemon got caught fucking lmao, I call myself a Visaemon truther for a reason. I do also think there's a chance that Alysanne suspected Daemon was fucking around with Gael as well - they're only a year apart, they grew up in King’s Landing together, Gael & Alysanne have been back at court a few years, Targaryens love to do that stuff, etc. I’m not saying he IS the father, the timeline is close enough that they could have fucked around but not close enough to have gotten her pregnant - he marries Rhea in 97 and Gael disappears from court in 99. But my other conspiracy about Jaehaerys being the father does kinda fit this too - that Alysanne noticed something was up but suspected the wrong man. I don't think Alysanne would ever want to even entertain the thought that Jaehaerys was raping one of her daughters, even if she realized what he had done to Alysanne herself was rape. Much easier to blame it on/suspect eternal Problem Child Daemon, especially if he's also being groomed by fucking Viserys; he's already an oversexed lecher who seduced gentle, married Viserys away from sweet Aemma, what else isn't he capable of? (and the double tap there of like, hypersexualization of bisexuality + Alysanne’s complete refusal to deal with how unhappy she is with Jaehaerys equals, to me, her constantly punishing her children and grandchildren because she can’t punish Jaehaerys, and proving this point to herself that she couldn’t have been manipulated into marrying him because look, her daughters are marrying the same way as well. And if she suspects even subconsciously that Jaehaerys is raping Gael? And punishes Daemon for ~seducing~ her poor sweet innocent Gael and stealing away Viserys from his sweet innocent wife Aemma? yeah that tracks with how she treats Saera and Viserra).

um tldr i think jaehaerys simply gambled that he could still control the situation when it came to defanging rhaenys, but also knew he couldn’t just give her nothing, if not for sentiment sake, then at least for logistics sake and to avoid a small rebellion, so when rhaenys & alysanne float the match, he can’t say no to it, so he just controls it. and i do think alysanne sent daemon off to the vale in part to defang him as well, yes, in addition to my not insane i’m right conspiracies about exactly what was cookin in king’s landing circa 97-99 ac (it was a lot of sex crimes, that’s what was cookin).

[themockingpoint]

“Well Brandon was an idiot and started threatening to kill the prince! What was Aerys supposed to do?”

Can anyone here actually convince me that if Brandon showed up acting like Ned when demanding his sister back that the same thing wouldn’t have happened? Does anyone here think that Aerys wouldn’t have still executed Brandon horribly anyway?

[agentrouka-blog]

Interesting that wildfire is called cousin of dragonflames yet no one noticed it.

(post referenced)

Well, it's buried in a supplementary worldbuilding book, so it's hardly required reading for the main series, but the context is pretty illustrative.

In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

Frustrated, Aerys turned to the Wisdoms of the ancient Guild of Alchemists, who knew the secret of producing the volatile jade green substance known as wildfire, said to be a close cousin to dragonflame. The pyromancers became a regular fixture at his court as the king's fascination with fire grew. By 280 AC, Aerys II had taken to burning traitors, murderers, and plotters, rather than hanging or beheading them. The king seemed to take great pleasure in these fiery executions, which were presided over by Wisdom Rossart, the grand master of the Guild of Alchemists...so much so that he granted Rossart the title of Lord and gave him a seat upon the small council.

His Grace's growing madness had become unmistakable by that time. From Dorne to the Wall, men had begun to refer to Aerys II as the Mad King. (The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II)

He tried to hatch dragons from stone eggs and only turned to wildfire because that didn't work out? Because he really had wanted a dragon?

What's that, Aegon "Egg" V Targaryen tried the same thing in order to be able to enforce his political reforms?

...the blood of the dragon gathered in one... ...seven eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king's own septon had warned... ...pyromancers... ...wild fire... ...flames grew out of control...towering...burned so hot that... ...died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman... (The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V)

I'm sure it means absolutely nothing.

Dragons are good. Dragons born from murdering slaves are used to fight slavery, after all. Beside them eating little children, of course. Point is, they are good. People who hatch them from stone by murdering slaves are also good and not at all prone to dangerous fire incidents.

Wildfire is the real problem. Cersei or JonCon are totally going to burn KL.

Not the daughter who managed to do what daddy couldn't.

[yourlocalnetizen]

Stop comparing Prince Duncan to Rhaegar!

Their situations are not alike at all!

Duncan's mother & father married for love.

Rhaegar's didn't.

Rhaegar was married with kids.

Duncan was not.

Duncan had two adult/nearly adult brothers in line after him.

Rhaegar's only brother was a child and his son was an infant.

It's true Duncan T has some flaws and was absolutely selfish by choosing love but in his position it really didn't look like anything could go wrong, and nothing would have gone wrong if his nephew Aerys wasn't a madman.

Rhaegar had a wife from a powerful family and the woman he choose to pursue was from a powerful family and she was engaged to a man from a powerful family. Rhaegar knew he was going to piss of some powerful people.

[sheisbeautyweareworldass]

jae ii is almost as bad as jae i just for that stupid “every time a targaryen is born” line alone

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Hello Bamfsteel. I have been following your blog for over a year now but I realize I haven't commented or reblogged much (I kinda avoid online interaction because I'm terrified of accidentally offending someone). But I cannot express how much I love your blog, and admire you for carrying on despite the hate you get from antis. I was already ambivalent about Daemon, but you got me rooting for him... and for Daena, Rohanne, and Aegor, the last of whom in particular is basically unanimously hated by the fandom (hell, one random tvtropes page even called him worse than Aerys the Mad King)!! So I'm grateful for your blog and hope you keep posting.

Anyway, as a fan of both the Blackfyres and Arthuriana, I'm currently planning to write an Arthurian retelling of Daemon I's life and was wondering about how he chose his sigil/heraldry. Twoiaf says that he simply reversed the Targaryen colors because that's what all bastards do. But I don't know if there are any other examples of this happening in canon.

On the contrary, I recall Jon saying to Arya in AGoT: "Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister."

So now I wonder if the 'black dragon on a red field' was actually Daena's personal coat of arms, and Daemon simply chose it after Aegon's acknowledgement as a symbol of defiance and loyalty to his beloved mother. I love the notion that the chivalrous-to-the-last-breath Daemon Blackfyre didn't care all that much for his terrible and blatantly unchivalrous 'father' and instead everything he did, from winning the squires tourney to rebelling against Daeron, was his way of making his mother proud and atoning for all the humiliation she had to suffer due to his birth.

Sorry for the long ask. I am just excited to meet a fellow Blackfyre fan :)

Hello, thesupercat. Thank you for the long ask, and putting up with my slow responses over the past year. I have a little more free time/motivation to write recently, so I’m trying to answer more questions. I’m glad that my posts could bring your fandom experience some happiness. If you ever write the Arthuriana about Daemon I, don’t be afraid to send me a link.

TWOIAF and Dunk actually have different origins of the Black Dragon sigil; Dunk claims “the arms of House Targaryen had borne a three-headed dragon, red on black. Daemon the Pretender had reversed those colors on his own banners, as many bastards did.” (The Sworn Sword) but TWOIAF actually says “Reversing the colors of the traditional Targaryen arms to show a black dragon on a red field, the rebels declared for Princess Daena's bastard son Daemon Blackfyre, First of His Name, proclaiming him the eldest true son of King Aegon IV, and his half brother Darren the bastard.” (TWOIAF Darren II) What a lot of antis miss in their analysis of Daemon and Aegor is conflating their actions with that of what the Reds said their supporters did (if Daemon didn’t create the sigil, it could be evidence that the rebellion wasn’t premeditated, which I believe) I actually had an interesting debate about which version of the origin of the sigil was more logical with someone (I’d taken Dunk’s word to be true), but it’s actually more interesting if the rebels came up with it, because you’re right (no matter what the wiki has to say about it) the reversed sigil color scheme alone doesn’t actually indicate illegitimate origin: it requires that and a diagonal (usually red) slash, called in heraldry a “bend sinister” (which was used in real life illegitimate sigils, like the cadet branches of the House of Bourbon, Conti and Condé). There are multiple examples of illegitimate sons/their descendants using the reversed colors of their father’s house and the bend sinister: Walder Rivers and Walder of Woodmere (a silver castle on a blue field and a red bend sinister, for Frey), and the cadet branch houses Oldflowers (ten white hands on a green field and a red bend sinister, for Gardner), Vikary (quartered with a white lion on red crossed by a gold bend sinister, for Reyne), and Bolling (quartered with a gold stag on a black field and an orange bend sinister, for Durrandon). The other illegitimate children whose sigils are described are variations on a family sigil without the inverse colors (Aegor Rivers, Brynden Rivers) or something completely different (Benedict Justman, Blackshield). Far from being a simple sigil that marks being illegitimate Targaryen, the black-dragon-on-red-field is a symbol of anti-Targaryen defiance that rejects the “bend sinister” marker for a different lineage of dragon (a cat of a different coat, I guess), which makes a lot of sense if you consider the war was due to disgust at the current Targ regime. Daemon technically had the right to use the Targaryen sigil proper since he was legitimized (look at the Velaryon boys), but I’m certain Da3ron would’ve forbid him because that would be “putting him on princely level” never mind that he is a prince as Daena’s son and Yandel knows this; he might’ve actually used a different style of arms before the First Blackfyre that we don’t know of (same with Aegor, who got the black wings on his Pegasus sigil due to House Blackfyre; I headcanon him using a plain blue field during his youth, for the Riverlands), or even the sigil we know of with the bend sinister (which the rebels removed acclaiming Daemon their legitimate king waging war against an illegitimate usurper; also as a Targaryen bastard, Da3ron could’ve had the same sigil as Daemon which the rebels wouldn’t have wanted). But, you seem to be correct that whoever created the sigil put more thought into it than “reversed color scheme is what all illegitimate children do”.

There are two women described as having personal arms: Rhaenyra Targaryen and Barbrey Dustin, ruling ladies with important family connections. The Targaryen sigil is also often personalized to distinguish between brothers and cousins (Aerion, Prince Daeron, Valarr, Maekar all have variations on dragon position, color, borders, number), though usually not for the king or his heir except in civil war conflicts (both Rhaenyra and her brother Aegon II have variations on the Targaryen sigil. Which I guess makes sense why Daemon’s supporters wanted a separate Blackfyre sigil). Daena was also acclaimed queen by some, and according to a GRRM answer wanted to be queen, so it’s possible she had a variation on the Targaryen sigil as personal arms. It’s interesting that the most popular variation on using house sigils is when the person wants to honor their mother’s family: Harras Harlaw (Serrett peacock), Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella (Lannister lion, which Jon thinks is overly proud), Cleos Frey (Lannister lion), Benfrey Frey (Rosby chevronnels), both Big and Little Walder (who quarter the Frey castles with sigils of their mother’s and grandmother’s families), and Harry Hardyng (quartering the diamonds of Hardyng with 2 Falcons for his Arryn grandmother and 1 broken wheel for his Waynwood mother) all incorporate their mother’s/grandmother’s family sigils to show their high lineage. Even Rhaenyra Targaryen quartered her two red dragons with the Arryn falcon for her mother and the silver seahorse for her first husband. It’s entirely possible Daena, famous for wearing black during her youth and twice uncrowned, incorporated a black dragon into her personal arms (though I like to think she also incorporated the Velaryon seahorse for her mother’s family, to better differentiate herself from the “usurper branch” of Viserys II), and Daemon accepted the nickname “the Black Dragon” partly to honor her (the connection between them wearing black was one of my earliest hc posts). That Daemon’s descent from Daena is emphasized in the same sentence as his supporters creating the black-dragon-on-red-field banner could be seen as connecting the reversal of “traditional Targ arms” to her, as being “Targaryen on both sides” was used at least in Rhaenyra’s case as a mark of better legitimacy. Tl;dr if you want to say that Daemon’s battle sigil is a black dragon to honor Daena, there’s enough symbolic connections considering other examples of personal/illegitimate arms to make that argument, especially for a fanfic.

I hope you have a good rest of your day. My askbox is always open if you have more questions, though response time may be slow.

[lives4lovesworld]

This meta will highlight GRRM own bias and double standards when it comes to his (= the narrative's) judgement of Aerys II Targaryen, as well as the insincerity of the fandom's obsession and exaggeration of Aerys II's "madness" and cruelty.

GRRM singles Aerys out in his cruelty and has it directly linked to his unstable mental state, which is quite ironic(?) if one i) actually consideres how normalized violence, collective punishment and arbitrariness in ASoIaF world is. Yet few and far between are actually mad, and even fewer dubbed as such, and ii) puts his in direct comparison to other characters, which are never condemned as much as Aerys (if at all) by the narrative. And the fandom naturally doubles down on GRRM hypocrisy (given how anti!Targaryen it is) and insists to exaggerate Aerys's madness in every sense to one up against Daenerys Stormborn.

Aerys is condemn for his preferred method of execution. The fandom even goes so far to write numerous metas arguing death-through-fire somehow is crueler, worser and morally more appaling than any other method, especially when it's a Targaryen monarch to use it. This absurdity as already been refuted a couple of times in the context of defending show!Daenerys burning large parts of her enemies in the field, instead of the having her men exclusively killing them in battle. But as always it falls on deaf ears, since this hypocritical fandom holds Targaryen (and only Targaryens) to modern standards, to the point where they are condemn for executing their enemies. PERIOD.

And Aerys is the biggest victim of this absurdity. Both within the fandom (since nobody cares for him, no one defends him in pointing out the double standards) and narrative (since Daenerys has, unlike what the fandom conjuncts out of thin air, never burned anyone but Mirri Maz Duur and is a rescuer above all so GRRM obviously does and can not condemn her for deeds she didn't commit).

For example, he and Stannis Baratheon have both burnt their hands for "bad counsel during the war". Qarlton Chelsted was burned for his objection against Aerys's plan to torch King's Landing and Alester Florent for the letter that offered Stannis's full surrender (x) to House Lannister, after his lethal demise at the Blackwater (x). Stannis's hand was even his kin (through marriage) and in killing him, he committed one of the gravest crimes in their world. Yet Stannis is neither condemn as "mad" for the execution nor for the kinslaying nor the style of said execution.

The only thing GRRM seems to condemn Stannis for are his reasons behind all of his "sacrifices"; which is to misuse the power of death for his own personal gain. Be it to murder Renly to avoid defeat, take a rival out and gain his army, for favorable winds for his expedition, put a stop to the blizzard or gain dragons/be Azor Ahai. Although all of Stannis's misfortunes in his failing campaign for the Iron Throne (his demise at the Blackwater, his inability to gain anyone's genuine support, House Karstark's betrayal and the blizzard) could be interpreted as narrative punishment, Stannis's reputation (as a righteous, capable man) within the narrative never suffers.

The fandom as well has no qualms how Stannis let his uncle be burned alive in order. Especially, those that refuse to accept that Stannis is in fact NOT Azor Ahai, do not even condemn for that. It's excused as "means to an end" or "products of his time". Another prime example of the fandom's blatant hypocrisy and double standards one might add; While members of House Targaryen are condemn for the use of magic, especially blood sacrifices, and Daenerys is even accuse of burning people alive and kinslaying without this being the case, Stannis is allowed to utilize (blood and dark) magic, (consider) murder and burn people as he pleases, (consider) kinslaying (nephew, brother uncle-in-law and in the future his own daughter) and still be proclaimed the Right Man to Rule™ and altruistic TKwC.

Somehow in the fandom's nonsensical moral belief system Aerys depriving sadistic pleasure in watching men burn makes it apparently morally more appaling than Stannis's religious frantic, megalomaniac reasoning ("for the greater good") behind his executions (and given the fact that he is in fact NOT Azor Ahai/The Chosen One one could argue all these sacrifice are completely in vain.)

Aerys's cruelty is not unique for the ASoIaF world. And more importantly, I would dare to say that most of his "atrocities" such as i) the annihilation of House Darklyns and Hollard ii) the maiming of Ilyan Payne iii) his execution of Brandon Stark, Rickard Stark and their escort and his call for Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon's heads and iv) him prohibiting Elia Martell and her children to leave King's Landing, would not be seen as one of a madman, if Aerys's mental decline would have NOT been as apparent.

i) Lord Deny seized his King, killed his escort and subjected Aerys to torture for about half a year and threatened to have him killed in hopes to get the desired charter for Duskendale granted, that had been denied.

This was unprovoked high treason and broke all the laws such as the sacred guest right, the king's peace and all vows to obey and defend the king. How exactly should a king have dealt with such an uprising and insult to his person and political power? Which ruler would have suffered such grand affront, without exerting harsh punishment? Which ruler could have even allowed himself to be merciful, if it meant he will be seen as a weak king, signaling to the rest of the realm that one can take the king captive and hold hostage and get away with it?

To put in perspective; Robert Baratheon brutally smashed Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, burnt their homes, broke their castles, raped and murder the common folk and lastly gave Balon's last son as hostage to Eddard Stark to secure Balon's submission (x) after his elder brothers were slain. House Reyne and House Tarbeck were both in debt to House Lannister. Soley to restore House Lannister's prestige, Tywin demanded immediate repayment from them, (hostages if it was not possible). Both houses refused. Despite Tytos Lannister settling the matter, Tywin deliberately provoked both houses by ordering their respective lords to answer to Casterly Rock for their crimes. When refused, Tywin (without the leave of his lordly father!) raised an army and started his war of annihilation. The ruins of these houses' castles were left as reminders of the fate that awaits those who scorn the power of Casterly Rock, and "The Rains of Castamere" was written as a tribute to the event. Stannis Baratheon considered torching and raiding Claw Isle as punishment for its Lord bending the knee in captivity and House Stark extinguished House Greystark when it rose in rebellion together with House Bolton.

None of these extreme violent acts are deemed as "[their] terrible revenge" nor are these men seen as mad, cruel or unfit. And mind you, no one of these men experienced captivity and torture on their own person.

When one such reported that the captain of the Hand's personal guard, a knight named Ser Ilyn Payne, had been heard boasting it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms, His Grace sent the Kingsguard to arrest the man and had his tongue ripped out with red-hot pincers. - TWoIaF; The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

ii) The maiming of Ilyan Payne is seen as way too extreme even for ASoIaF (only exclusively by the fandom) and as "Aerys being unable to hear the hard truth", despite a monarch (unfortunately) being well in his rights to teach his subject "respect", if he openly mocks his better, extreme violent punishment from a ruler being normalized as sign of strength and a warning to any potential rebels.

The crimes everything boils down to;

The full depth of King Aerys's madness was subsequently revealed in his depraved actions against Lord Stark, his heir, and their supporters after they demanded redress for Rhaegar's wrongs. Instead of granting them fair hearing, King Aerys had them brutally slain, then followed these murders by demanding that Lord Jon Arryn execute his former wards, Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. - TWoIaF; The Fall of the Dragons: Robert’s Rebellion

iii) While the inverse-annals are clearly baised, GRRM has made it clear that Aerys is responsible for the rebellion (x), and that his call to execute them all was another product of his cruelty and paranoia. Which omits any nuance the situation had such nuances as;

Brandon and Rickard were on their way again back to Riverrun for the impending wedding between him and Catelyn Tully, when word reached Brandon of Lyanna's supposed abduction by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Brandon, along with his squire Ethan Glover, Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, and Jeffory Mallister, rode to King's Landing immediately. Upon entering the Red Keep, Brandon shouted for Rhaegar to "come out and die". Rhaegar was not present, however, and Brandon and his companions were arrested by King Aerys II Targaryen and charged with plotting Rhaegar's murder. - awoiaf.westeros.org; Aerys II Targaryen: Year of the False Spring 

A paramount lord and his heir barging into the royal court of a king (half of which would rather dethrone him and most did not see him as the ruler of the realm) and brazenly demand the crown prince's head BASED ON RUMORS alone in front of said court. For a supposed crime that stands in direct contrary to what is known of said heir (x, x, x).

While it's a well established fact that this fandom only intrest is to present House Stark as poor, oppressed, altruistic and wronged victims and House Targaryen as the evil warmongering lunatics, it is still mind blowing to see people glorify Brandon's stupidity as Protective Big Bro Thang™, talk how he should have escape the situation unscattered (because they believe the starks are the Main Characters™ and should have all the Syndromes (like plot armor) of one) and his execution being yet another uncalled atrocity of Aerys's madness, when Brandon literally has committed high treason through his rash actions. Even Catelyn call Brandon's action "rash" and his would-be father-in-law Hoster Tully called him a "gallant fool" for it.

A highborn father that would have politely ask them to lay out their complains (again) behind closed doors so he might calmly listen to these allegations and their wish to see his oldest one dead after the spectacle of their entrance, has yet to be named by obnoxious neutrals and "intellectuals" preaching such scenario as the solution to this fiasco.

Realistically speaking, what should Aerys have done with a paramount lord, his heir and their escort breaking the king's peace and threatening House Targaryen's power by demanding the Crown Prince's head? Insulted this gravely that they about to rise in rebellion with mighty allies. When it comes to this situation Aerys had been caught between a rock and a hard place;

He could have a) dismissed the accusations, let them go home and have the realm think of him as weak. Home to their seats, where hot headed Brandon would have likely raised the north in rebellion anyway and whose brother's foster brother Robert Baratheon would have likely joined him for his wounded pride. Risk the riverlands to stand with them as well for their siege lord's daughter Catelyn would have wed Brandon Stark. Possibly the Vale too, for Jon Arryn's beloved forster son's brother has raised in rebellion and his bride is Lord Tully's other daughter and Brandon Stark's sister in law. Or b) use this incident to dispose his 'disloyal son', so his chosen heir Viserys would have less threats in his ascend on the throne later on, yet simountanastly signaling the realm that one can demand a Targaryen prince's head based on rumors alone. Establishing a most dangerous precedent for the future of House Targaryen.

What might have salvage the situation without an all-out-war or an unacceptable, most dangerous precedent for House Targaryen('s might) would have been to dismiss the accusations. Instead of summoning the fathers of the escort and executing them all along with Rickard and Brandon, he should have send them to the Wall (which would have made Eddard Lord of Winterfell) and send for Benjen Stark as cupbearer or squire at the court (so he might functions as hostage over the North).

And even this might have not have worked for i) it would have been still a too mild punishment for conspiring to murder the Iron Throne' heir and ii) for they could have just refuse to take the black once at the Wall, return to Winterfell with the help of the Night Watch and call to war anyway (though House Tully and Arryn might have been more reluctant to join them in such a scenario)

Do these nuances make Rickard, Brandon and Co's execution less gruesome and the call for Eddard and Robert's death morally justified? No, but they show that they could have been committed by a sane sovereign too. But instead of being seen as actions of a madman they would have been seen as too-harsh (failed) precautions. (IMO Tywin and Stannis would act the same way in such a situation with the big difference that they would be cold and caculative, whereas Aerys had become aroused)

Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. - TWpIaF; The Fall of the Dragons; The End

iv) Same with iii) if one was to look at the political situation (especially before the rebellion) and analyze Aerys's actions without dismissing them all as one kf a deranged lunatic, this particular action was actually quite savvy.

Prior to the rebellion, the royal court had been devided into two parties; the king's and the prince's;

Chief amongst the Mad King's supporters were three lords of his small council: Qarlton Chelsted, master of coin, Lucerys Velaryon, master of ships, and Symond Staunton, master of laws. The eunuch Varys, master of whisperers, and Wisdom Rossart, grand master of the Guild of Alchemists, also enjoyed the king's trust. Prince Rhaegar's support came from the younger men at court, including Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, and Ser Richard Lonmouth. The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince's confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia's uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. But the most formidable of all Rhaegar's friends and allies in King's Landing was surely Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. - TWoIaF; The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Essentially the Second Dance of Dragons was brewing;

To Grand Maester Pycelle and Lord Owen Merryweather, the King's Hand, fell the unenviable task of keeping peace between these factions, even as their rivalry grew ever more venomous. In a letter to the Citadel, Pycelle wrote that the divisions within the Red Keep reminded him uncomfortably of the situation before the Dance of the Dragons a century before, when the enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra had split the realm in two, to grievous cost. A similarly bloody conflict might await the Seven Kingdoms once again, he warned, unless some accord could be reached that would satisfy both Prince Rhaegar's supporters and the king's. - TWoIaF; The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring  

So contrary to the fandom's insistence of Aerys's reason behind his prohibition for Elia and the children to leave the capital being unreasonable paranoia or malice (or even godamn racism??), Aerys was smart. By ensuring that they were located in the capital, he gave the dornish forces a reason to defend it (essentially ensuring his survival) then had Elia and the children been safely in Sunspear or Dragonstone, they would have had no reason to continue to fight (and be slowly overrun) for the defense of King's Landing if the only one remaining there was the king that had disinherited Rhaegar's entire lineage and proclaimed Viserys his heir after Rhaegar death at the Trident (ergo putting an end to Dorne's hope to size the Iron Throne through a Martell-Queen Consort and later a half Martell-king).

Also contrary to the fandom's insistence on how Aerys's cruelty and paranoia breaks even Westeros's norm in taking hostages in war, even from his supposed allies and families (through marriages) is not unusual; the kings of the Winter are known to have taken child hostages to secure their subjects' submission, Quentyn had been given to Lord Yronwood as "blood debt" by Doran Martell. Theon had been taken hostage by Eddard Stark to ensure his father's submission. The Redwyne twins have been taken hostages by the Lannister court to ensure their father's loyalty (to lend them his fleet in their war). Where is the condemnation for them? Also contrary to the fandom's insistence highborn hostages, especially those who are considered family members are also not treated badly. They experience most of the privileges their birth and status grants them. Cases such Sansa in King's Landing and Jaime in Riverrun are the expection, not the rule.

But what is to expect from a fandom that lays the blame for Elia Martell and her children's gruesome murders on Aerys Targaryen (her father-in-law and their grandfather) and Rhaegar Targaryen (her by-then dead husband and their father) instead on the heads of the rebels like the liege lord of the men to commit the murders (Tywin Lannister) or the self-styled king (Robert Baratheon) who sanctioned these murders later (going so far as to making mentioned liege lord his father-in-law)?

Aerys II Targaryen has always been exclusively presented by the fandom as this horrendous sadistic monster without a heart. Every act of his a epitome of stupidity and cruelty with Aerys's madness as an inevitable by-product from coming from an incestuous union, despite this not supported being the text.

Aerys Targaryen was not born that way. His mental state in his later years was a product of the immense trauma he experienced throughout his entire life; from witnessing the death of his entire family when he was 15 years old, to being powerless as he and Rhaella were forced to suffer still births, miscarriages and dead babes in the cribs to his imprisonment and torture in Duskendale (x). The justified constant fear of being dethroned by his own son (x) and the feeling of never being deemed worthy or competent enough by others to the point where he not even seen as The King (x) likely only added to his instability and cruelty.

His paranoia, especially concerned Tywin Lannister and Rhaegar Targaryen, was also anything but irrational; Aerys was not in the wrong to mistrust Rhaegar as he later planned to dethrone him, which could only result in Aerys’s death should Rhaegar wish to ascend the throne as comfortable as possible. Nor for being wary of Tywin Lannister, who gambled with his life at Duskendale in hopes to get Rhaegar on the throne with his daughter as his queen. (x)

Aerys was not a fool to prevent Tywin from becoming Rhaegar’s father-in-law. Before the rebellion, they were the biggest threats to Aerys’s reign. Not only did he prevent an alliance between his two greastest threats, in giving Rhaegar Elia Martell to wife. The princess to the least densly populated kingdom (which is quite hated by the more "civilized" southern kingdoms such as the Dornish Marches, Reach and Stormlands for their blood feuds (x,x)) and with a small army, he also prevented Rhaegar from gaining exponentially more support had he married a noble daughter from a house with more wealth, resources and men (like Cersei Lannister)

And mind you (!) had Steffon Baratheon succeeded in finding a "maid of noble birth from an old Valyrian bloodline" in the Free Cities, Aerys would have given Rhaegar's a woman to wife that has absolutely no ties to any kingdom (which would have given him no political advantage beside whatever wealth her family would have had across the sea) and who would bee seen as 'foreign stranger', similar to Larra Rogar, Viserys II's wife.

Such a choice at the time was politically quite savvy: His supposed heir secured the succession without shifting the power balance too much by preventing Rhaegar from amassing even more support through an more politically advantageous match. That this choice later on backfired in the face of an external political threat (e.g. the rebellion) was unforeseeable and unfortunate.

Jaime's rise to a kingsguard was as well a less then perfect solution by Aerys for his (justified) fears; in appointing Jaime as kingsguard he had gained the most valuable hostage against any possible rebellion from Tywin Lannister, but he also had to endure Tywin's son day and night as shadow. Aerys seemed to have played by the motto "keep your friends close, but your foes closer" with Jaime as he had previously done with Tywin, whom he had refused to dismiss as Hand or accept his resignation (x, x) and suffered greatly from it (at first mentally, later with his life). (x)

As said, the reason why I wrote this meta was to showcase the imsincerity of the fandom's obsession and exaggeration of Aerys II's "madness" and cruelty, as well as to point the nuances that are often overlooked simply because Aerys was mad.

Afterall, how comes that Aerys's cruelty and madness is more empathized than anyone else's by the fandom? Where does the intrest and obsession for it as well as the need to deliberately twist Aerys's relatively peaceful reign (x, x) into one of terror unseen before come from?

Simple because Aerys's cruelty and madness must be given such great narrative and political importance, and his reign must be one of the darkest times yet, so when dany antis proceed to write their "metas" of how of Daenerys will be rejected by Westeros, never know home or love, become the-hidden-mad!queen-all-along™ and step into her father's foot steps by torching King's Landing and committing mass murder, have a "basis". The first one is even more ridiculous considering that Rhagear was beloved during his days, and is still, despite actually living under Aerys's roof till his 16th birthday, unlike Dany.

Nothing more, and one knows so because the same people won't predicted the same for their tool-character "Aegon VI" who is the Mad King's supposed grandson and son to Prince Rhaegar, whom most of them condemn just as harshly for whatever headcanon (pRophECy oBbsEsSed, vIsenYa) that has been treated as canon for too long. Not to mention that there is an abundance of characters whose fathers were horrible, yet there aren't daily posts on a character's utter mental decline based upon their father's flaws. (bioessentialism)

In conclusion and defense of Aerys II Targaryen; i) he is as much of a victim of tragedy and cruelty than he was an enabler, ii) his paranoia was not unreasonable iii) his cruelty is not at all unique for the medivial ASoIaF world nor in comparison to other characters. In fact neither his paranoia nor his cruelty makes him stand out in his madness, but rather his manic-depressive behavior iv) how his mental state does not render all of his decisions as one of a mad man.

I would also like to say that a forced abdication of Aerys decided by a Great Council with Rhaegar ascending the throne would have neither be the perfect solution as it is often presented. Had his abdication gone relatively smoothly (which would NOT have necessarily be the case (x)) it would shaken the laws and rules of Westeros to its core.

As the first Great Council had done it, it would have given the lords of the realm again the idea and power to decide who is to rule them. Which would have not be the positive, progressive, humanitarian step towards democracy as most mistake it but path a way of war and instability ambitious, vile lords would have misused for their own gain yet again.

If the first Great Council had established an iron precedent on the matter of succession, than such a second one (in which the lords could abdicate their rightful king because they are not content with him) would have path the way for any man to inherit his male relative's position if he manges to convince enough of his subjects to abdicate their current sovereign and put him as his heir (as son, brother, nephew, grandson etc...) through bribery and whatnot.

An era of chaos unseen would follow. Just imagine what the lords of the realm would have done with a king like Aegon V that would robb them some of their absolute power through his reforms. It would hollow out the crown of any power to protect and serve the small folk (be it through humanitarian reforms, against its lords or plan costly, necessary infrastructure)

The wars such as the Wot5K are a direct result of the illegitimacy of Robert's rebellion and how it had shaken Westeros's laws. Instead of the once rather cemented hereditary monarchy, Robert opened the door for Westeros to be wreaked by every sovereign that believes he can muster enough manpower to establish himself a self-styled King. (x)

IMO instead of gathering a Second Great Council, Rhaegar honestly should have just found a discreet way to have his father's poisoned. Although this would have been OCC for noble, valiant Rhaegar and quite harsh to expect from a son to do to his father (no matter their estranged relationship) it would the most practical decision.

[bbygirl-aemond]

you mentioned in your post about alyn and addam’s heritage about the blood correlating with commanding dragons.

so you mean that since they have less targaryen blood they can command their dragons less? how would that work with daenerys?

i always took it as less of they can’t control their dragons and more of showing that dragons are still sentient beings with their own thoughts and wills so it’s interesting to see other peoples thoughts on the storms end scene.

bc i don’t think “controlling” your dragon is as cut and dry as a lot of people make it out to be. it’s not like mind control. idk i’m always intrigued to hear your thoughts on stuff.

This actually brings me to a point I've been wanting to make for a while! Daenerys's bond with her dragons is not a dragon-rider bond as we see with all previous Targaryens. Remember that dragons did not choose to serve House Targaryen; they were forced to by magic. In a way, they're just a cog in the machine of slavery that was Old Valyria. It's actually more significant for Daenerys not to have enough Targaryen blood to rely upon this old magic, because it means her dragons are not slaves to blood magic. They don't serve her because they're forced to; they serve her because they want to. Why? Because she's their mother. Let's discuss:

Daenerys is tied to her dragons in several different ways that are all very deliberately unrelated to her having Targaryen blood. This is again meant to emphasize and re-emphasize that we are not looking at a Targaryen dragon-rider bond, but something else entirely. Something new.

First, Daenerys hatches her eggs in a blood ritual that she completes intuitively. This is literally unheard of. Countless other Targaryens (Aegon II, Aegon III, Viserys II, Aegon V, Duncan, Aerys II, etc.), all with many times more concentrated blood than Daenerys, have tried and failed. I mean, Aegon V and Duncan literally died trying to hatch eggs. Before Daenerys, the only thing that ever hatched a dragon egg was its dragon parent. Even in Old Valyria it's unheard of. So Daenerys was able to hatch her dragons, to literally bring them to life, and not because of her Targaryen blood.

Second, Daenerys literally breastfeeds her dragons in the books. Like, she's still producing milk because of her recent birth, and right after the baby dragons hatch she puts their mouths to her breasts and they actually drink her milk. Again, no Targaryen has ever done this, not even back in Valyria. This is just another way that Daenerys's bond to her dragons is separated from her Targaryen blood and predecessors.

Third, Daenerys is more likely than not meant to be Azor Ahai, or the Prince(ss) Who Was Promised. Think of Melisandre's description of Azor Ahai: "born again amidst salt and smoke to wake dragons out of stone." Daenerys is called "Stormborn" for a reason; she was born in salt and smoke. And she woke three dragons out of fossilized (stone) eggs. Azor Ahai is tied to super old magic that predates the Targaryens and even Old Valyria: the Empire of Ghis. So let's add this to the list of ways in which Daenerys's relationship to her dragons is specifically contrasted against Targaryens.

Lastly, Daenerys is specifically meant to be like the anti-Targaryen. She's set up as the Breaker of the Wheel, with the Wheel literally being created by Aegon the Conqueror and the Targaryen Dynasty. She is distant enough from the hellhole that was Old Valyria, and she grew up underprivileged enough, that she has things like empathy and understanding for the smallfolk that we've never seen from Targaryens in power before. So of course her bond with dragons would be different from the Targaryens who came before her. Everything about her is meant to be different from those who came before her; that's the entire point of her character arc so far.

TLDR: Daenerys isn't a dragon rider in the sense of a Targaryen dragon rider. She isn't relying on the Valyrian blood magic that all of our faves in HotD are relying on. That's what makes her so powerful, and so unique: her power over dragons is not because of her Targaryen blood, but in spite of it.

For who else but the Breaker of Chains would wield the power of dragons not because she forced them, but because she loved them and let them choose her first?

[warsofasoiaf]

At the moment, Jamie is the only one left who played a direct role in the downfalls of House Targaryen. Robert, Eddard, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, even Tywin are all dead and gone. Which means if Jamie ever fell to the hands of Aegon or Danaerys, then all their wrath would fall on him.

I don't think that's the case for either candidate

Aegon VI and Varys are going to hold that Aegon is a worthy king and thus, separatist sentiment of any kind is wrong. Varys would likely believe that anyone who believes that someone *else* holding the authority to determine the virtues of a ruling king to be a threat to his own designs of a perfect prince.

Dany specifically views any anti-Targaryen sentiment as illegitimate. So even if the North wishes to hold their idea of "The King in the North" or the Riverlands wishes to find the heirs of Robb Stark as the legitimate King of the Trident, that would be considered unacceptable to Daenerys's eyes. To Daenerys, the overthrow of Aerys II was illegitimate - she is the rightful heir of the entire Seven Kingdoms. So I don't agree that she'd only focus upon Jaime - she'd be happy to prosecute Starks that maintained the legitimacy of Robb's kingdom and out of a sense of inherited guilt for overthrowing Aerys, because accepting that the Targaryens were worthy of overthrow would mean accepting the legitimacy of the Baratheon regime, which she is unwilling to do.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

[goodqueenaly]

Viserys said "Dragons did not mate with beasts of the field" and was a creep to Dany. Daemon Blackfyre felt entitled to having Princess Daenerys as his bride. Is it possible that Aerion, who saw himself as a dragon reborn, thought he was "owed" a marriage with one of his sisters? The timing of Egg's birth makes me wonder if Dyanna had him so close to Daella's age so Maekar would betroth Daella to Aegon instead of the sadistic Aerion.

Do I think that Aerion might have assumed, or even demanded, that he would marry one of his sisters out of an inflated sense of Targaryen superiority? I think it’s certainly possible. That Aerion was willing to torture his younger brother using the tradition of Targaryen incestuous marriage as the basis of his threat may well suggest that Aerion harbored some resentment or jealousy at Egg’s (again, for now only theorized) betrothal to Daella compared to his, Aerion’s, lack of a similar incestuous betrothal. Nor can it be understated the level to which Aerion embraced the arrogance of Targaryen royal superiority (and, of course, married that arrogance to his personal sadism), with Aerion viciously attacking Tanselle for (as he saw) insulting House Targaryen with the dragon death in her puppet show and asking for Dunk’s head because Dunk dared to lay hands on one of the blood royal. At the same time, there is nothing as yet to suggest that Aerion necessarily knew that he would not be married to a sister - if Daella were (again, speculatively) Egg’s fiancée, there might have remained the possibility in Aerion’s mind that he could marry Rhae - nor indeed any suggestion that Aerion actually demanded or expressed the opinion that he was actually owed one of his sisters in marriage. 

Do I think Maekar and Dyanna specifically conceived Egg out of a desire (by one or both parents) to keep Aerion from marrying Daella? I personally doubt it. Even if Dyanna and/or Maekar thought that it would be expected of them to marry their new daughter to one of their own sons - already an uncertain conclusion when Daeron II had moved away from incestuous marriages for his sons - and even if either or both wanted to avoid betrothing Aerion and Daella (assuming that Aerion had by then demonstrated his true sadistic nature to one or both of his parents - again, uncertain when Aerion was said to be all smiles around his father) - there was nothing to say that Maekar and Dyanna would or could not have then betrothed young Daella to Daeron or even Aemon (not yet destined for the Citadel when Daella was born, given that he was sent when he was 10 and that Aemon was himself only a year older than his sister). Nor do I think there is anything particularly suspicious or intriguing about the birth dates of Maekar and Dyanna’s children: Daeron and Aerion were around one to three years apart, Aerion and Aemon somewhere between four and eight years apart, Aemon, Daella, and Egg each a year apart, and then Rhae somewhere between a year and nine years younger than Egg (although I’d personally guess on the closer end of that spectrum, given their interactions in childhood). Rather than trying to fix the record, as it were, to prevent an incestuous union for Aerion, Maekar and Dyanna were, I think, simply having children in the ordinary course of (at least apparently) amicable Westerosi marriages. 

It’s worth pointing out, of course, that Aerion did go on to marry a relative - not a sister but a cousin, Daenora, the daughter of his paternal uncle Rhaegel. It remains to be seen exactly why Aerion married Daenora, and indeed what any of the parties involved felt about the union. Was this a compromise with Alys Arryn when Maekar came to the throne - that while Daeron would marry Kiera of Tyrosh (thus, perhaps, preserving the anti-Blackfyre Tyroshi alliance), Aerion would marry Aerys I’s sometime heiress, giving her a mainline royal marriage while not making Daeron’s claim depend on Daenora? Was this Alys’ own ambition coming to the fore, perhaps after Daeron’s death (maybe around the mid- or late 220s AC) - seeing that, with the late heir’s only child being a “simple” girl, the path was open to have a grandson via Daenora sit the Iron Throne? Was this Aerion’s own desire, to seize the nearest Targaryen relative he could in order to assert the superiority of the Targaryen line (and his superiority within that line)? Was this a move of desperation on the part of Maekar - that Aerion’s deplorable behavior (made more public, perhaps, after he killed Haegon Blackfyre following the latter’s surrender in the Third Blackfyre Rebellion) had cooled the desire of aristocratic Westerosi families to seek a marriage with him, and that cousin Daenora was simply the only choice available and willing to marry him (and provide male heirs where Daeron the Drunken had not)? The marriage could have been made for any of these reasons, any combination of these reasons, or completely different reasons; we shall have to wait for Fire and Blood Volume 2. (But somebody stop me before I start wildly speculating on Alys Arryn as a figure like Mahaut of Artois in The Accursed Kings.)

[thephantomcasebook]

https://www.tumblr.com/blog/view/thephantomcasebook/698079592334901248

woah thank you for this explanation. the brothel queens part is so vile and disturbing, i doubt theyll include it in the show (though, its seasons away so it really just depends on how they plan on evolving rhaenyras character) but just knowing that alone makes me really question how people can be so vehemently team black and act so morally superior for it.

Yeah, there's a really weird mass-psychosis going on right now in "The House of the Dragon" fandom.

People don't seem to grasp the idea that Rhaenyra will become a monster and is remembered in the books - both "A Song of Ice and Fire" and "Dunk and Egg" series - as an absolute tyrant of which many future Targaryens, including Daenerys and Egg (Aegon V), are ashamed to be her direct descendants.

Tyrion - in the books - gives a TED talk about the failings of Viserys in placating Rhaenyra's sins and transgressions and how it contributed into making her a monster ... and that Cersei was heading down that same road with Joffery if they don't do something about it.

I will bring a caveat that the "Brothel Queen's" incident is pushed off as speculation. However, whether it was true or not, the Realm itself and - most importantly - the people of King's Landing believed it to be absolutely what happened. So much so, that when Daeron is allegedly murdered while on the march to King's Landing to rescue Alicent, the people straight up rise up and riot because they wanted justice for Helaena and Alicent but when the one person - their hero- who could've given it to them was murdered, they all decide to do it themselves.

Tens of thousands of people died storming the Red Keep and the Dragon Pit ... but they didn't care. Cause they wanted Rhaenyra to pay for what they assumed she did to Helaena and Alicent.

Also, non-book readers need to be aware that "Fire & Blood" is wholly Team Black Propaganda based in the fictional circumstances in which it is written. That is during the worst of the madness of King Aerys II - just before Robert's Rebellion. Which means that any anti-Targaryen or anti-Black sentiments would be seen as treasonous and would mean that the Maester writing "Fire & Blood" for VIserys and Daenerys would be burned alive by Wildfire.

Therefore there isn't any nuance to Alicent's prospective. She is an evil-stepmother and pious hypocrite who was getting fucked by Ser Criston Cole in the corner of the yard and had bondage parties where everyone had a turn with her. Aemond is a anarchist psychopath who marries an evil white witch. Helaena is a fat and soft weirdo. Aegon II is a drunk whoring wastrel. And Daeron is barely covered other than he is very valiant and honorable, he loves his mommy a great deal, he's one of the best Battle Commanders in the history of Westeros, and he was a cunning warrior.

Therefore, "The Brothel Queen's" incident in which Alicent and Helaena are gang raped is brushed off as "hearsay" despite both the realm believing it and the person who gave the account of the incident being one of the more reliable sources in the chronicles.

As to what the show will do ... I mean, it depends.

A lot of covering for Rhaenyra and making her seem the progressive girl-boss heroine of "House of the Dragon" came from the heavy handed political bend of Miguel Sponchnik. It was that fuck-head who basically created the mass-psychosis of zealous and cult like Alicent hatred and Rhaenyra worship. He interfered a lot with the writing and set the tone for the series to make the show a feminist message about how men keep powerful women down. Which is a complete contradiction of the source material.

George R.R. Martin has said repeatedly that the story of the "Dance of Dragons" is about how anyone and everyone can be corrupted by power - regardless of gender.

Luckily Sponchnik got shit-canned by Warner Brothers - probably at the behest of the writers who were tired of his personal politics handcuffing them from telling a nuanced story.

I think stuff like Laenor not being murdered and Daeron being left out of the first season was Sponchnik's doing in order to create mass sympathy for Team Black. By making Rhaenyra seem like a progressive heroine with only good kids and righteous tolerance they're trying to put the white hats on Rhaenyra and Team Black.

Meanwhile they left out Daeron - The Jon Snow of "The Dance of Dragons" - and I think if Sponchnik hadn't been fired Daeron wouldn't have appeared at all. Because, he - along with Jace - are the only clear cut heroic figures of the "Dance of Dragons".

He also changed the circumstances of Criston Cole killing Joffery Longmoth'. in the book it's a fair fight during a tourney bout that Ser Joffery takes too far and Criston defends himself accordingly. Meanwhile, in the show, Criston just straight up murders Ser Joffery. Thus, it's Sponchnik dog whistling and manipulating progressive viewers and media into hating Criston for murdering a gay person and - by association - hating Alicent who saves Criston and puts him by her side.

Hopefully now that the dip-shit has been fired, we can get an unencumbered writer's room that can bring out the humanity of the Greens and let the the Blacks have a dark side that evolves into true evil (which they become in the end)

[thesilverlady]

Unpopular opinion: i don't think that Aegon was a ra**t and an enjoyer of child fighting pits or abuses his wife in the book and i say this a someone who prefer Rhaenyra and team black in general. Helaena and Aegon shared a bed together+ Helaena was said to be a happy and joyful princess+ she has never said or hinted at anything that imply she is being abused like Naerys+ if Aegon ii is an abusive husband Grrm will not shy away from pointing that out, he has pointed out that Aegon iv , Aerys and Robert are shitty husbands.

Aegon was said to be creep with servants in his wedding day which is despicable but not in the same level as a serial p*edo rap**t like in the show. That's come directly from mushroom and he is known for lying alot+ was in dragonstone at that time. So for the showrunners to go with mushrooms testimony about aegon is just weird especially when they talk so much about how they want to portray everyone as grey and sympathetic but then they destroyed Daemon's complexity and "greyness" so who knows 🤷🏻

"please don't take this as an attempt to justify the greens i am just trying to be as objective as possible with them especially Aegon"

hi! first of all I also try to be objective with all the characters so don't worry, I complitely understand where you're coming from.

Let's break down a little bit about what you said about Aegon, shall we?

I definitely don't believe he was abusive the way the mad king was with his wife for instance (I've seen this comparison both from anti Aegon + ppl who ship Helaena with other characters). There isn't a single hint that Aegon was abusive or shitty with his wife. infidelity or indifference are not abusive characteristics and in the f&b they end up having 3 children, and as you said grrm doesn't shy away from mentioned how terrible soem marriages are. Both the marriage of Helaena/Aegon and Viserys/Alicent was fine.

I suppose, from another perspective, we could come up with the excuse that since jaehaerys had deformities and jaehaera was reported to be "slow" (+she was a girl) they could have been pushed to try for another "better" child, hence leading to Maelor.

But still, I simply cannot imagine book Aegon II to be raping, and beating his own sister. It's purely a fanon interpretation that lot of fans like going with for their own reasons.

Now, when it comes to him being generally a rapist with his servants/whores I'm very conflicted. Like you, i used to believe that it could be an exaggeration. Mashroom melodramatises everything, and the Septon - while he's technically team green in the story he's still a maester and an anti targaryen like all maesters are so it's not like he's more reliable by any means.

However, I've listenered many arguments from the other side (that does view him as a rapist) and they have some valid points; like him being told he occasionally harassed servants couldn't be a "one time" thing. Sure the word rape isn't used in the context (i suppose in modern terms SA is more appropriate) but who is to say he would only "touch" once and let go? He was a man in a position of power still.

You see, I started thinking about Aegon position's pre-war; he grew up with his mother and grandfather whispering about Rhaneyra who - as a woman - was made heir and was technically in the position that by misogynistic westerosi standards should have been his, his father showed more favoritism to his nephews (Viserys adored Aegon's children too but I imagine Alicent wouldn't point that out). While we're told he was "lazy" it's impossible to not imagine his pride and ego being hurt from being so very obviously casted aside as a firstborn son.

From a course I've done in gender studies, as well as personal research, studies show that rapists have some common characteristics such as:

- a lack of empathy - narcissism - feelings of hostility towards women

There are also several types of rapists:

- opportunistic rapist: who seizes any chance for sexual gratification, such as the loss of self-control on the part of their victim under the influence of alcohol. - sadistic rapist: whose motivation is to humiliate and degrade victims - vindictive rapist: who has anger and aggression focused directly toward women. Such a rapist believes he is permitted to sexually attack women because he feels he has been hurt, rejected or wronged by women in the past

and many more. So with that being said, I did change my mind and started viewing him as a rapist in the book.

Honestly, I think the bigger problem are the feelings of shame the fandom brings to people who continue to like characters like these. Perhaps, a part of myself had originally wanted to come up with reasons to view him as a non-rapist so I wouldn't feel guilty about finding him interesting. At some point I reminded myself that you can like the most angelic character and fandom space will find a way to insult you, so Aegon being a rapist shouldn't be a reason for you to be "forbidden" from liking him. He's not even the worst asoiaf character in terms of crimes. Some people are salty because of the growing fanbase - which I understand, because some stans are delusional.

Now in regards of him being a pedo, it's something I actually don't agree with. It's extremely disappointing how such terms are heavily thrown left & right without thinking of the context and worldbuilding of asoiaf-verse

The pedo accusation comes mainly from this part:

The Testimony of Mushroom claims Ser Criston found the young king-to-be drunk and naked in a Flea Bottom rat pat, where two guttersnipes (<-term for poor/homeless children) with filed teeth were biting and tearing at each other for his amusement whilst a girl who could not have been more than twelve pleasured his member with her mouth

I've seen the take that Aegon gets off from seeing kids fighting one another, but i just think this comes from someone who simply hates him to the core. He was there for entertainment, he was drunk, and had 0 care about being seen in sexual acts at a public place.

The fact that so many people have been surprised at the existence of the fighting pits is a bit shocking because in the books we see fighting pits in the Slaver Cities of Astapor, Meereen, and Yunkai. So it's nothing knew. Sure, the whole thing is disgusting but so are many other things in asoiaf verse so idk what people are expecting.

Now the bigger issue is the girl who we're told by mushroom she's 12 and gives Aegon a blowjob. As you mentioned mushroom is known to be lying and at the time he was in Dragonstone,so how could he even know?

In another ask, I mentioned how I don't side completely with either mashroom or the Septons because I believe the truth is most likely somewhere in the between.

Septon Eustace called what mashroom said an "ugly picture" but admitted that Aegon was in fact found with a "paramour" and he insisted she was a well cared daughter of a wealthy trader.

Now, Septon Eustace's bit is also rather... convenient, wouldn't you say? First of all he doesn't mention the girl's age, makes a reference to her wealth to make the situation seem better, which is very suspicious

As I said, my interpretation is somewhere in the between; maybe the girl could have been a simple daughter of a poor trader and Eustace added the "wealthy" part so the girl wouldn't be seen in a disadvantageous position. Maybe she was 14 or older and Mashroom reduced the number to make it more shocking and worth of gossiping etc

Of course one could say that even if that was the case, 14 is still a child. And to that, I have to remind everyone that while that's the case for our world, asoiaf has more gray areas. Here it's mentioned how technically coming of age is 16,but we've seen many cases both in f&b and in asoiaf of girls having ahd their period much sooner and getting married/having children because of it. So, if that girl had "bloomed" by westerosi standards then she was technically "of age"

As for the show portrayal, I honestly cannot understand what they had in mind with Aegon, because on the one hand they portrayed him as whiny & depressed, abused by Alicent and Otto and ignored by Viserys - which of course makes the audience sympathizes and then they turn it around and he's suddenly a shitty husband according to Helaena and a rapist who his mother covers for.

To me it seems like they couldn't make up with their minds about how his character should be because while you can convey sympathy for a terrible character (perfect example is Viserys, Daenery's brother) it seemed like they couldn't find the connection between the two to make a proper image of him.

As for Daemon I agree with you they destroyed his complexity and made him a piece of crap whose sole focus is his brother and his niece, but I gotta say, while I know the showrunners have mentioned they want to "portray everyone as grey and sympathetic" in the show, i think their result is more "men are evil and women are victims" because they suck big time at writing and have misunderstood completely the themes from f&b

[sarcasticsweetlara]

What crown would Aelinor Penrose wear?

Aelinor would use the crown of the Good Queen Alysanne.

Aelinor Penrose is a character that even though has not been truly explored, she is one of the most interesting ones.

A great example is how Aelinor being related to the Targaryens is a good example.

If Aelinor does indeed have Valyrian blood, then just like with Alyssa Velaryon, they both had connections and blood ties to House Targaryen even though they belonged to different Houses. However, more than trying to find a bride with Valyrian features, Aelinor Penrose was chosen for the reputation of her House.

If King Daeron II had only been concerned with getting Valyrian-looking grandchildren he could have looked only for Velaryon brides for his sons or great-granddaughters of his great-aunt Rhaena; instead Daeron was more focused on looking for alliances. Aelinor Penrose may have been chosen as House Penrose was respected and was part of the Stormlands where the majority of the Marcher Houses are, as Daeron II was trying to secure the support of the Marcher Lords once again as many of them seemed to prefer Daemon Blackfyre's Anti Dornish sentiment over Daeron's peace terms as King Daeron II had a Dornish wife: Myriah Martell, and wedded his sister Daenerys to the Prince of Dorne Maron, the brother of Myriah.

And one would think, why give the (possibly looking like) Valyrian - Marcher bride to the second son instead of the first son who by the way looks more Dornish than Targaryen? That's because as the firstborn son Baelor needed to cement his position with the Marcher lords by marrying the daughter of an important Marcher Lord, and he got what he needed with Jena Dondarrion as the daughter of the Lord of Blackhaven as the Dondarrions were more inside the border than the Penroses; and if in any case something happened to both Baelor and Jena, Westeros would still get a Marcher queen in the form of Aelinor Penrose.

That's why Daeron searched for Marcher maidens as wives for his two oldest sons, and it's also probable Daeron gave one of his Velaryon cousins as a bride for a Marcher House, like House Caron.

House Penrose is noted for their erudites and their vast knowledge and how much they invert on it as well as aiding House Baratheon in the Marches, note the Marcher lords were not particularly happy with having a Dornish queen and Daeron knew he would need a lot to improve those relationships, so Aelinor's marriage to Aerys' I Targaryen must have been like a double checkmate.

We don't know what exactly Aelinor looked like, maybe she did have the Valyrian look or maybe not but even if Aelinor does not look like a Targaryen or is not a Targaryen, her family history speaks a lot, and therefore could be used to enhance the Targaryens who still dominate Westeros whether they have dragons or not, having a special card of legitimacy against the Blackfyres.

Aelinor must have been part of the Court as a noble lady who would have eventually been chosen to be a princess consort. Queen Myriah could have had her as her lady-in-waiting and maybe that's why people in later generations thought she was Aerys' sister, as Myriah and Aelinor must have been close.

Credit to @alaynasansa and @tumbledrylowwest

Using the crown of Alysanne would be a symbol for Aerys' reign as Aerys I Targaryen is legitimate and that they are the rightful monarchs and will give the realm peace after all their suffering.

We don't know from what parent exactly whether Aelinor has Valyrian blood or if Aelinor being Aerys' cousin is through simply being the biological niece of Ronnel Penrose the second husband of Princess Elaena Targaryen, and then her uncle Ronnel was wed to Princess Elaena Targaryen and that's how their lines are parallel.

Also, maybe Larra Rogare's sister Marra - who had been noted to be an erudite and deeply active in politics - had married into House Penrose and eventually Marra's great-granddaughter Aelinor would marry her cousin Aerys.

After all, House Rogare did have an impact within the Targaryen family: they gave them new riches to both House Targaryen and House Velaryon, they seemed to have helped diminish the tension of Dorne with the rest of Westeros for a while due to the respective marriages of Drazenko Rogare with Aliandra Martell and that of his niece Larra with Viserys II Targaryen.

Either way valyrian genetics seem to be quite different from the other ones, being stronger in some cases and prevailing, while being run over in others either by intermarrying or even magic as it was that way they began claiming dragons; it seems that whether Aelinor had Valyrian features or not, many thought of her as a Targaryen; Marra's children must have grown up speaking both the Westerosi Common Tongue and High Valyrian as well as the Low Valyrian dialects of Lys, Tyrosh and Myr.

Just like Alyssa Velaryon (Queen Alysanne's mother) had been seen as the best match for Aenys due to her heritage, it was the same for Aelinor with Aerys; and similarly to Alysanne her marriage was a matter of great importance for the realm.

Aelinor must have been deeply respected as a lady, since it seems the smallfolk and lords never said anything bad about her in the court regarding her role as queen (note: not as the queen consort, as what made Aerys' council tell him to divorce her was the fact Aerys did not seem to be physically attracted to her), unlike with her husband who was criticized for his passive role during all his reign.

Once her uncle Ronnel married Princess Elaena Targaryen, then it would be fair to say House Penrose would be proud to say they have royal blood tied to them through two marriages. Aelinor Penrose was known as the Maiden Queen, but there was more to her. There was pride, intellect, practicality and a sense of security that it's fair to say she's one of the most interesting queens as she was visually and to some degree culturally a Targaryen and a Penrose as well. Similar to Edgar II Ætheling and/or Queen Margaret of Anjou, her family would be set apart but still be considered royalty. And even then, Aelinor would like to show everyone that she has noble blood and is part of the royal family and should be respected as such.

Aelinor would like to reflect her entire heritage through her whole life and even if she didn't have children with Aerys she would want the people to know she is the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, that her husband's claim is legitimate and that her subjects will have peace.

Edited: 25 February 2024

[kellyvela]

"His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong."- Jaime(AFFC II). "She is the widow of a Dothraki khal, a mother of dragons and sacker of cities, Aegon the Conqueror with teats."- Tyrion(ADWD VII). Another parallel between Cersei and Dany.

That’s an anti-parallel. Cersei compares herself to Tywin (which, to those around her, is a joke), while Dany is compared to Aegon by others.

Hello Anon:

That's not from Cersei's POV, it's from Jaime's POV, those are his thoughts. Jaime thinks that's what Cersei thinks of herself:

"I govern the realm."

Seven save us all, you do. His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted. She had been giddy as a maiden when she learned that Stannis had abandoned Dragonstone, certain that he had finally given up the fight and sailed away to exile. When word came down from the north that he had turned up again at the Wall, her fury had been fearful to behold. She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience. "You need a strong Hand to help you."

—A Feast for Crows - Jaime II

So, it is a parallel.

But in any case, we do know who is the one always associating herself with Aegon the Conqueror:

I am blood of the dragon, she told herself. I am Daenerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone, of the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror.

—A Game of Thrones - Daenerys II

She lifted her head. "And I am Daenerys Stormborn, Daenerys of House Targaryen, of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and old Valyria before them. I am the dragon's daughter, and I swear to you, these men will die screaming.

—A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"Remind your Good Master of who I am. Remind him that I am Daenerys Stormborn, Mother of Dragons, the Unburnt, trueborn queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. My blood is the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, and of old Valyria before him."

—A Storm of Swords - Daenerys II

Do you want more Cersei/Dany parallels??? I'm going to give you more!

Tyrion also compares Cersei with one of the ancestors that Dany prides to be associated with:

Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys. She never forgets a slight, real or imagined. She takes caution for cowardice and dissent for defiance. And she is greedy. Greedy for power, for honor, for love.

—A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VI

So, Dany is proud to share blood with Maegor the Cruel, and Tyrion compares Cersei with Maegor as well... Do you know who else is compared with Maegor?

The girl that they once cheered as the Realm’s Delight had grown into a grasping and vindictive woman, men said, a queen as cruel as any king before her. One wit named Rhaenyra “King Maegor with teats,” and for a hundred years thereafter “Maegor’s Teats” was a common curse amongst Kingslanders. —Fire & Blood

Yes! Rhaenyra Targaryen, who is part Daenerys and part Cersei.

Don't you love how compelling George's writing is?

Thanks for your message :)