#anti viserys is always real though

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

"You told me it was our duty to hold the realm united against a common foe. By naming me heir, you divided the realm. I thought I wanted it. But the burden is a heavy one. It’s too heavy. If you wish for me to bear it, then defend me. And my children." 

Episodes 8

What is your opinion on this speech?

Rhaenyra is absolutely correct that Viserys divided the realm when he named her heir, despite telling her it was her duty to hold the realm united, and that he placed a heavy burden on her shoulders and didn't do a whole lot for her in terms of practical support. I think it's interesting that the show chose to highlight how neither Rhaenyra nor Aegon particularly want to rule. I think for show!Rhaenyra, it makes a good deal of sense. I always got the sense that if Viserys had disinherited her, show!Rhaenyra's pride would be wounded, but she would probably be at least a tiny bit relieved. It's that same pride that won't let her just admit that it might not be worth it, that maybe she'd rather just step back (and there's a cut dialogue with Daemon in which she voices these doubts to him and he immediately shuts her down saying she's weak like Viserys... hm!). In light of this, it isn't particularly out of character for show!Rhaenyra to be considering the peace offer Otto delivers (book!Rhaenyra is another story, she has no doubts and does not give a fuck about keeping the realm united, she wants to win, period). She has a good life on Dragonstone, her kids are out of the public eye and aren't facing accusations of bastardy, and Daemon has his dragon hobby to keep him occupied. She doesn't need the throne, and if it's not actually that important to Viserys, then he should just say so. If he really wants her to be queen and has a good reason for it, then do something. She has a point.

That said, if Rhaenyra doesn't want the burden, she can give it up at any time, and if she actually does want to be heir, she's not doing herself any favors either. She is the one who stayed away, who went to Dragonstone and was absent from court while the green council built up their power base. And while yes, Dragonstone is the official holding of the heir to the throne, most heirs split their time between King's Landing and Dragonstone because it's important for the heir to learn the workings of the realm and to make connections and alliances. Dragonstone is only a few hours away on from King's Landing on dragonback, and it's a relatively small holding with only a few villages, so it's not as if it requires its prince or princess to be in residence at all times. Aside from that, Rhaenyra also had three bastard children and put them in the line of succession, which she knew was going to cause problems (and in this, Viserys did offer her a ton of support, including allowing his own son's maiming to go unpunished and Vaemond to be killed to maintain that lie). So it kind of goes both ways. Rhaenyra acts like she doesn't really care all that much about being heir beyond the validation it gives her, that she is the favorite child, the one he chose, and Viserys stubbornly keeps her as heir but does nothing to shore up her claim or mitigate the threats against her, and it's divided the realm despite Viserys insisting the realm must remain united, so what are we actually doing here? I liked this scene, I think it reveals a good deal about show!Rhaenyra's mindset.

I think if done well, the show can have Rhaenyra really spiraling due to grief and rage, going from feeling like she should preserve the peace and that maybe it isn't worth it, to feeling like she has to win out of spite (and I think this can apply to both sides. You have Otto and Rhaenys giving Alicent and Rhaenyra similar speeches in the trailer) and a desire for vengeance. I don't... hate this? But the show has to stop giving Rhaenyra the chosen one rightful heir halo and admit that she doesn't go to war for the good of the realm, but for her own very personal reasons.

[cowboysanddragons23]

Debunking Rhaelya shippers' arguments:

-"Dorne doesn't frown on polygamy.": Dorne is very sexually liberal in many things, but polygamy is not one of them. They are still a class society (ex. Oberyn would never marry Ellaria even though he genuinely loves her, Quentyn Martell was a virgin and Arianne would never marry Daemon Sand.) and polygamy is illegal under the eyes of the Old and New Gods and since Jaehaerys I outlawed it and for a very good reason.

-"Elia and Rhaegar had an agreement about his affair with Lyanna." "Elia would have been ok with Rhaegar going with Lyanna." "Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife along with Elia.": Elia would have never agreed to Rhaegar cavorting with Lyanna, because that would be giving her enemies a recently sharpened sword to murder her and her children, as she knows that the cause of the Blackfyre Rebellions was the anti Dornish sentiment towards Myriah Martell and her son Baelor. Also, Maegor was the last Targaryen king who attempted enforced polygamy having a dragon and even he couldn't make the Faith bow. Rhaegar has no dragons to inspire obedience.

-"Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love." "Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story." "Rhaegar would have been a great king." "Rhaegar would care about Jon." "Rhaegar and Lyanna could have been a great king and queen.": There is no evidence that points out that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, aside from the testimony of Barristan Selmy (who was never at the Tower of Joy, thus he doesn't know what truly happened). Rhaegar was Summerhall made flesh; obsession with prophecies, grandiose plans to save the world and willingness to sacrifice women into its altar. He took Lyanna because he wanted to prove that the prophecy that led to his birth was real and that the sacrifices his family made were worth something. Whatever fondness he had for Lyanna, his Third Head of the Dragon always came first. Rhaegar and Lyanna wouldn't have been good parents to Jon, because the former would give up on him from birth because he isn't the Visenya he wanted and the latter would be too young to be a mother (Viserys II and Larra Rogare everyone?). And besides, thousands died for it and the same happened when Duncan Targaryen married Jenny of Oldstones (who are exactly the romantic love story Rhaelya is erroneously interpreted as). Rhaegar is too obsessed with prophecies and Lyanna is utterly disinterested in ladylike pursuits.

[horizon-verizon]

The show really wants us to empathize with both Rhaenyra and Alicent but the women so far have been nothing but peace loving no matter the circumstances and they seem downright incompetent. Because the show doesn’t seem to have caught up on the fact that war is unavoidable at this point. Lucerys and Jaehaerys were murdered, civilians are dying, armies are out in the field… like it’s over.

The show is very much aware of that fact though. Even in the council scenes, as Rhaenyra admits Alfred Broomes a sexist and an asshole but he’s not entirely wrong when he criticizes Rhaenyra. Its that frustration at her own passivity and indecision that pushes her to to be more decisive. None of the council scenes involving Alicent and Rhaenyra are played entirely straight, council members can be sexist and be assholes but their not entirely wrong. Cristin in his convo with Alicent was insanely patronizing but again he’s not entirely wrong. They’re trying to show how women are dismissed by the sexist men on their councils but at the same time... the men actually have very valid reasons to be dismissive. I’m a woman but I wouldn’t listen to Alicent or Rhaenyra either. So far they’re both total liabilities who make one ridiculous decision after another.

These men are wrong in how they exclude women on anti women principle alone, which is what they are doing. The men were obviously out of line & sexistly-motivated, but I'd argue that the scene that the bulk of the wrongness of the "not played straight" Rhaenyra's side than Alicent's. And the men are at least not coming from a totally bad place when they want action from Rhaenyra.

The episode made as if Rhaenyra not being on Syrax to burn soldiers and wage war was a more so a sexistly-motivated thing whereas it was more bc she is a monarch with no battle or war-command experience like Rhaenys. Aegon was just flambroiled alive and nearly taken out and if Aemond or Daeron had not existed or were too young, it would have made the greens so much more vulnerable. They already have taken that hit, but it would have been even worse.

Whereas with Alicent, a queen dowager and then queen Consort--not a Queen Regnant or the person these people are fighting to make the next monarch--is of course going to be less able to pushback aaginst the men that would try to deny her involvement and desires to strategize their next moves. Alicent being a liability as Cole says she is him projecting even as she is also responsible for him not being at his post to protect her grandson and entire family, but it doesn't stop that the reason why Alicent can be ignored is not bc of lack of will or intelligence but position and not actually having a truly loyal attendant/knight by her side who she could trust to unquestionably go for her interests alone and use violence against other men to do so. To sublimate his own desires.

Yes, it is true that Alicent hasn't actually done much before the war to improve the realm while she was on council as Alysanne did before Otto came back. She had little to no real impact on the council's decisions and actions, there is no scene that shows such in HotD. She kept trying to say Daemon was responsible for the Stepstones instead of building fortifications like Rhaenyra said they should out of pure spite, which is basically her saying they should do nothing abt the Stepstones. She herself worked to get Otto back bc she felt she was not taken seriously by Rhaenyra and the rest of the court. It was always Otto who directed her and the green's plans and directed the council after Viserys died. Yes this is all true, but the real reason why this scene made more sense to convey her limits as a woman is that she has no backup resources not the actual position to be be expecting to assert her will and almost demand for acceptance of her leadership. Rhaenyra is already in a leader's seat...look at your circumstances and act like one.

Also Rhaenyra's going to Alicent out of a stupid hope to make things stop (for why did she even think Alicent could do anything?!) as well as her allowing them to talk over her while being NOT a Queen consort like Alicent when bk!Rhaenyra likely would never except maybe from Corlys is ridiculous. She wants to do something with Maidenpool, don't allow them to roll over you and give those orders if you think they are needed so bad! Other than that, Lucerys was Aemond's kin, this is a major taboo, she is well within her rights to wage war for that alone in this society, nvm the wanting to claim back her seat and birthright.

So I think that we agree on the observation of why no one would follow Rhaenyra, but when it comes to Alicent there was just little way for her both as a Consort/Dowager to assert herself as Rhaenyra could and should, as Rhaenyra could have like GoT Dany (not ASoIaF Dany, I mean the show, and not the Dany who still reopens the fighting pits).

[darklinaforever]

Received above this post :

It's crazy to be so narrow-minded and stupid, under a post that explains the real canonical reasons for the Rhaenyra & Laenor marriage... Namely that they were forced by Viserys, in order to repair his stupidity with Laena. Viserys was not obligated to marry Rhaenyra after the Daemon affair. He was the dragon. He could do anything. But he chose to marry off his daughter by force. (And in the book, Viserys engaged her a few years after the Daemon affair, proof that yes, the two things have nothing to do with each other) Moreover, once again, the only man that Rhaenyra would have wanted to marry was Daemon, we all know that (she literally fiddles with the necklace he gave her while she sees suitors), and Viserys would never have agreed. Then, what is this hatred that Rhaenyra rejects suitors who do not interest her, especially in a period where she actually has the right to do so ? When she doesn't have the right, the antis are angry. When she has the right, they still are ! The antis just want to spew their hate on Rhaenyra for free, whether it makes sense or not (it's like the constant reminder that she was stupid to go live in Dragonstone, even though it was her duty as heir to the throne)... And it's crazy to hate someone so much a woman seeking sexual freedom. Just crazy. The only one they always seem to have in their mouths is that Rhaenyra wants to fuck. As if wanting sexual freedom was horrible ! I guess they just wanted her to suffer quietly as a woman ? They're a mess. Anyway, admire the stupidity of this post ! How dare Rhaenyra take her marriage prospects seriously ?! Instead of just marrying someone random ?! 😂 And here is a post which brings together all my opinions (through other small posts) on the case of the Rhaenyra & Laenor marriage :

[ilynpilled]

Kinda unfair/or unpredictable question but do you think at some point in the next books Jaime and Daenerys will interact to a higher degree? Or better question -- do you think that's a good idea? Jaime has so much personal trauma with the Targaryen family, it feels like it may be realistic to have a meaningful conversation with Dany. (If he's surviving his current predicament which I think he will :P) Though maybe it'd just be beneficial for Jaime, and Dany is not interested in dwelling on it

and i find it interesting that this jape is in the chapter where all this significant rhaegar talk happens:

all this could mean nothing, and these things are hard to predict, and i think the show especially offers very little in this regard considering how much the stories of these two in specific were shifted in certain directions, so this is all i am gonna say anon: i do think the set up for an interaction can be interpreted from the text. dany is “rhaegar returning” in some form, so maybe there is more to that “talk that never was” than just tragic irony. when and how and exactly what it would mean for them at that point? idk. i just think jaime (and only jaime, as he would likely be the last living “monster from viserys’ stories about RR” by that point: not only was jaime kept closer bc he was a hostage, but barristan doesn’t really dwell on rhaella’s abuse, and it is possible that he will not live to be the one to communicate the extent of the ‘real aerys’ to dany, he was dancing around it in the text so far thats fs + brienne knows about the wildfire plot but that would be significantly less personal, same with the pieces just being put together after KL goes up in flames imo, which they likely will be, but i just think it would be missing that ‘personal layer’) holds information that dany does want to learn, and him telling her could bring a lot of things full circle for them as characters (+dany and rhaella have a number of parallels, and i do think that piece of information for example, as painful as it is, would hold significance to her and her understanding of her family other than just a form of closure, especially relating to a major theme concerning the downfall of house targaryen and the abuse and oppression the women faced from their male counterparts following jaehaerys’s rule, the dance, complete patriarchal hegemony etc. and that whole downfall did culminate in aerys and everything he represents, and her experience with viserys is also an extension of all that). idk if jaime is meant to confess the wildfire/kingslayer thing in specific to anyone other than brienne (from a more thematic perspective), but who knows, especially if he does live past a KL going down in flames scenario, which is possible because there is a set up for him wielding widow’s wail which is there rn. the whole rhaegar motif in jaime chapters was always something that i found interesting (i have a very specific interpretation of a parallel/anti-parallel with the children that i think is actually unrelated to dany/jon etc, but i am too lazy to get into that right now.) but yeah he is the pov character with the second most mentions of rhaegar by name in the text as he is a key manifestation of guilt, the first one being dany obviously. if not, then george has bran + magic to get that info to dany ig. we will see in like 20 years lol

[esther-dot]

Lyanna and Elia death actually hit the readers with emotions. Both were innocent who died because of others actions. We get to know about them more from their close families and friends and we sympathize with them. The way Ned, Oberyn and Doran mourn them leaves impact. Ned tore down the tower of Joy and commit treason to protect Jon. Oberyn risk his own life to seek justice for his sister. Yet same can't be said about Rhaegar because the people and his family has no real connection or emotions with him. Viserys never really told Dany about Rhaegar being a brother. Dany is obsessed with the idea of Rhaegar who she don't know. Jon Con who is obsessed with him had no real connection with him.

(prev ask)

They really do! Martin did a very good job conveying horror and grief over their fates. I won’t insert the quote about Elia, it’s so deeply disturbing, and the image of her babies before the throne… devastating. Everyone talks about Ned's trauma for a reason, even though we're books past his last breath, his memories of Lyanna's death, his inner torment, they're haunting.

Tbh, I'm gonna happily hate on Rhaegar regardless of where Martin takes things, so I have to really work to be unbiased. But, when I look at certain elements that pop up in Jon’s chapters that are meant to reach back into pre-canon and bring Rhaegar into the story, I’ve evolved how I read it, and don’t think Martin was writing Rhaegar as a sadistic fuck. I have to think, given the contradictory pictures we're given, that Martin is writing about what he repeatedly has written about. What do we do with people who are several things, different things, all at once?

The Hound saves Sansa, then threatens her life. Tyrion is a villain who chooses to not have sex with Sansa because he can't ignore her fear. Jon sees Ygritte weep over a song and the fate of giants, smile at him, and then callously murder an innocent man before nearly killing Jon. Martin believes in what I’ve called “expansive” characterization. They characters are multifaceted not to make us ignore one side, but to ask us to develop our ability to feel fear and compassion, to feel warmth and a chill, to find things to love and hate in the same place.

I admire that and think it's crucial not only to fully enter the characters' worlds and POV, but to be able to embrace the anti war theme. The books have so much more meaning when I accept that I love Ned, I believe the Westerosi were right to overthrow the Targs, but from Dany’s perspective, she is right to despise Starks. Her family was killed. To have Targs and Starks alike think of what Elia’s babies suffered with horror, even while they are on opposing sides of the war, that’s the truth about the war, isn't it? What we're meant to find at the heart of it all? It is tragedy for everyone. That’s what makes the series anti-war, it has to avoid glorifying violence, not just say it’s sad to lose—it must still be awful to win. When Maester Aemon mourns the death of his family, desperately wants to save Daenerys, I am meant to feel the tragedy in this, listen to the pain on both sides.

(I mean, I'm hardcore anti targ and all they represent, but I'm talking about what I believe Martin ideally wants)

As much as I believe Jon will have strong negative feelings about Rhaegar's choices, horror even, I can't imagine that Martin will write Jon's feelings as entirely one-note. He's gonna introduce some conflict, he always does. We don't yet know what that might be, but when I was rereading the Mance meeting, saw how Mance and Jaime both had a connection to Jon's central struggle, realized how the Rhaegar-esque aspect of Mance was associating Rhaegar to it all...well, I did entertain the thought that Rhaegar's actions can be read as a parallel to Jon's theme:

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. (AGOT, Jon VIII)

Obviously, this is primarily about Jon, I expect it to play out in Jon’s story, but it does sound Rhaegar-esque. Jon might have been that baby to Rhaegar.

That would mean we condemn him for how he failed Elia and the babies, his kingdom, that Jon would still that horror, but would prevent Jon from being able to completely despise the man, as he too has felt torn between vows and love.

(insert my caveats re: prophecy baby, being very much at peace with Rhaegar bleeding out etc)

The pain comes in with complexity, and I think that’s what Martin wants even if I’m personally unmoved by it.

[mesillusionssousecstasy]

HOTD: Ryan Condal & Sara Hess

I do think the recent interviews from Sara Hess and Ryan Condal were condescending and patronizing, as though fans are unable to understand nuance and complexity and the term “morally grey”... Completely conflating the issue to mask a larger, more legitimate concern. “He’s not Ned Stark or Han Solo” or humans aren’t so “absolute”, when we all understand perfectly human nature. It’s very insulting. The audience understands that he has dark traits, we have literally seen him commit atrocities at various points in the season, however, he does also have the capacity for good, with one of his redeeming qualities over the course of the season being love of family. All season long, viewers have witnessed his devotion and loyalty to family and those he cares most for, and have been told this by writers, directors, and actors... to see the culmination of the argument between him and Rhaenyra was a bit jarring because there had been no prior build up to it based on what was previously established regarding their specific relationship dynamic. Especially coming from episode 8 when Daemon was supportive of Rhaenyra and her children’s claims, backing them every step of the way (even over his own daughters), with nary a hint of envy or jealousy. Defending her name openly in court.  

Completely get that there is a dark side to love, it isn’t always pretty and pure. Sometimes it’s ugly and toxic, particularly when it involves two passionate people... and sometimes emotions become especially heightened when it involves grief and heartbreak. But still, that scene felt very inconsistent with everything we knew and saw up until then. Ryan was the one who said that Daemon especially loved Rhaenyra... and we saw that special connection onscreen. And they have deliverately cut scene that would show a different side: one hugging daughters, another comforting Rhaenyra after she delivers a stillborn, for example. The wording used to describe his character and that moment by Sara and Ryan were just not congruent.

I see the arc they’re trying to take with this. It gives Jaimes Lannister parallel. They want to make him the unlikeable asshole, take him down a dark path before “redeeming” his character, and ingratiating him to the fanbase. The difference is, however, (and perhaps this wasn’t considered), Jaime was part of a reviled family and his primary love interest (Cersei) was highly unlikeable. With Daemon, on the other hand, a great portion of the fandom love Rhaenyra - particularly casual show viewers, who represent most of the audience and haven’t read the source material -, and by default, side with the Blacks which by nature, extends to Daemon as well. We enjoy the relationship dynamic with Rhaenyra, his unwavering support of her. The show asked the audience to heavily invest in the romance. And through that, despite his misdeeds, we saw the good in him as well. In his love for Rhaenyra and Viserys both. Not to say Daemon doesn’t stand on his own as a character, he does 1000%. But it is to recognize also the power of association as well as the natural draw of the anti-hero’s and our fascinations with characters neither wholly good and bad. Perhaps because it comes across as more real and we recognize elements of ourselves in their complexity?

If Jaime was still an asshole, but a Stark or paired with a more well liked love interest from the beginning, would the initial perception of his character have differed? One thing I do find strange though are the scenes they decided to delete from the plot leak. Script leaks mentioned scenes of Daemon comforting Rhaenyra and having the kings guard swear at her birthing. Also, it indicated the beach scene was supposed to perhaps be more extensive? And though there was an argument, it never once mentioned physical violence. Mind you, these scripts came from the same place as the ones from the previous episodes which were always accurate and on point. The minor discrepancies between the episode 10 script leaks and the released version, with the moments of Daemon showing evident care and grief being the only ones removed, is weird. It makes me wonder if their decision to not include them was out of recognition of Daemon’s unexpected popularity and a need to portray him more harshly heading into next season.

[jinxedwood]

The House of the Dragon: The Princess and the Queen. Part 1 of 2

I have so much to say about episode 1x06, I didn’t know were to start. So I decided to make my comments chronologically…I guess? (I tried to, I really did, but then I started  hopping around to other scenes that I thought linked up…and things got chronologicalish?) . 

Also, I’m going to post this in two parts over the next few days because this thing turned into a BEAST. Also, I’m quite blunt with my opinions here, so I have tagged everything with anti tags because I have something negative to say about just about everyone and I appreciate the fact that some days you just want to look at the pretty.  

Please excuse the typos. I know they’re there. I can’t see them...but I can sense them.

The House of the Dragon: The Princess and the Queen. Part 1 of 2

We open with Rhaenyra giving birth to her third child. I was struck by how intimate, almost claustrophobic the scene is, but the smile, that moment of genuine joy on her face as she was handed her child was lovely. I also noticed she was attended by a Septa and I presume a midwife, and there wasn’t a Maester in sight and I wondered if they were specifically barred from the room. It would make a kind of sense. Aemma’s fate was sealed the moment the women were sent from the room and the Maesters took over and I’m sure that was lesson Rhaenyra learned well.. 

And then the doors opens, letting a chill light into the cocoon of joy, and Rhaenyra learns that the queen had commanded to see the baby at once. You can see the following scene in two ways. You could say that Rhaenyra’s pain and discomfort as she climbed the steps was all her own doing, that the Queen mere wished to see the baby and hadn’t requested her presence as well, but as this demand was clearly a power play, you could also say Rhaenyra couldn’t trust the queen alone with the child.

Personally -  I don’t think she thought Alicent would physically hurt the child - at least not at this stage -  but a sly comment here or there could do irreparable damage to the pretence that that Rhaenyra’s children were Laenors instead of Harvin Strong’s. One that Viserys is holding onto for dear life. 

And it’s on this journey we meet Laenor. It’s strange, I see a lot of people saying Laenor isn’t properly supportive of Rhaenyra in this scene. I don’t see that at all. I see the real, organic bickering you see in any genuine family relationship. Rhaenyra is in pain and snippy. Laenor is stressed and his head is all over the place as a result. His mouth is literally running off before his brain can catch up and the expression on Rhaenyra’s face says it all.

I also think that what we initially see as his disengagement from Rhaenyra and the children ,is in actual fact the signs of a man newly in love again. I think this is why, although Rhaenyra gets exasperated with him and later snaps at him that he can’t go to war with his new lover, she also doesn’t try to squash the romance or contradict Laenor when he calls their third child Joffrey - although she complained about it afterwards - because I think this is probably the first time he’s been in love since Joffrey died.  

Alicent has changed over the years. Always a little conservative in her thinking, this has hardened into self righteousness that reminds me a little of Otto’s. Of course, this level of righteous indignation has to come with a little self denial. Although I think we see this latter trait slowly stripped from her as the episode continues. 

In this scene though,  she finds herself partially foiled by not only Rhaenyra’s presence but Leanor’s , although she can’t help her parting barb to Laenor. I think the fact that the barb didn’t land as heavily as she thought it would is the moment Alicent’s frustration with the situation began to ratchet up. Alicent carries her prejudices around with her like they’re precious truths. She looks at Rhaenyra’s children and only sees bastards. She literally finds it difficult to see them as real human beings, never mind children and she genuinely can’t understand why Visery’s doesn’t see it the same way. 

We can see other examples of the double think that comes with a rigid belief system . We see a scene where Alicent reprimands Sir Crispin Cunt (sorry not sorry) for calling Rhaenyra a cunt, but in practically the same breath voices her opinion that her children should be named bastards and Rhaenyra  punished (in other words, executed)  Alicent’s belief system allows her not to see any hypocrisy in this.

Also, for all we call Targaryen’s mad and wild, there is a hardocre pragmatism built into them that Alcent really can’t wrap her head around. Of course, Visery’s knows Harwin is the father of Rhaenyra’s children, and he really doesn’t give a shit. They’re still Rhaenyra’s children. Alicent genuinely doesn’t understand why Visery’s is getting angry at her rather than condemning Rhaenyra’s actions and outing his grandchildren as bastards. She really hadn’t got the memo yet that, while Visery’s wouldn’t say it out loud like Daemon would, he has as little regard for the morality of the situation as his brother. His daughter made a political marriage with little chance of issue and made other arrangements to make sure she had heirs.  As far as he’s concerned the only problem is that his wife and her followers won’t shut up about it . 

In this sense, Alicent is flying a lot closer ot the wind than she realises. After all, it was Otto’s blindness to this aspect of Visery’s personality that lost him his place as the hand. VIsery’s smiles and plays nice for the Maesters,  and the beliefs they uphold, but in a lot of ways that belief is as paper thin as Daemon’s. The Targaryens conversion to the Seven had always been a matter of politics rather than faith.  

[And this is one of those moments where I veer wildly off on a tangent, because I realised I went on and on about Alicent’s failings but didn’t bring up any of Rhaenyra’s  -because, boy, does she have them! But her biggest one is her ARROGANCE.  

Like her father, Rhaenyra hasn’t gotten the memo yet  that things have changed thanks to the concessions Jahaery’s made during  his reign. Not only did he choose to renounce his traditional beliefs and faith in favour of the Seven, he allowed the Maester’s to decide on his succession, something his wife never really forgave him for. 

One of this things that is usually left unsaid about the Targaryens is that, while the people they ruled in Westeros were extremely Patriarchal, they were less so, and their views on sexual relationships were a lot more more fluid.  Both men and women were dragon riders and went to war. Polyamorous marriages were accepted, and women held positions of great power before the rule of Jahaery’s  In fact, while the histories (sic), describe Aegon as the king, and Visenya and Rhaenys as his wives, there is enough information there to assume that it was in fact Visenya who was the de facto ruler and Aegon her beard. This ambiguity around gender is reflected in the Valyrian language, which has not one, not two, but FOUR genders

Yeah, yeah, I’m getting to the point.

The point is,Viserys and his family are the first generation to deal with the fallout of Jahaery’s decisions, but they had deluded themselves into believing nothing had changed. They carried on as they always had, ignoring the Westorosian (?) customs they felt shouldn’t apply to them. In a sense, they remind me of the British Royal family after the Civil war, It took them a couple of generations to realise that they’d been neutered as well.

I mean, yes, I’m not saying that Rhaenyra should have forced Laenor to sleep with her to produce heirs (because - lets be clear - not having heirs wasn’t an option for her. She needed them to hold onto her claim to the throne.) but she could have at least picked a lover who looked a little like him! That would have been the clever thing to do.Instead she just did what she wanted and expected everyone else to go along with it - and a generation before, she probably would have gotten away with it! But the moment Visery’s married Alicent and made her queen, he let in Westeros behind the curtain, and closed the net tighter around the Targaryen reign.. 

Rhaenyra should have been smart enough to see that she didn’t have the absolute power her forebears had, that she couldn’t just browbeat the court into ignoring how she flouted Westorian culture. There is a definite culture clash going on here, but the Targaryen’s had never been on the sharp edge of that until now. 

So yeah, Rhaenyra is suffering from an epic amount of self delusion here and, in that, she and Alicent are a pair - perhaps even intentionally? Are they supposed to represent the aspects of their culture, both the good and bad?

Anyways, tangent done. ]

[But also another - short - tangent. I’ve read a lot commentary  that seems to conclude Alicent’s belief that her child should be on the throne, and her consequent actions, are vindicated and caused by the fact that Rhaenyra's children are bastards.

I think this conclusion tends to varnish over Alicent’s hypocrisy and the fact she already committed herself to putting her son on the throne before Rhaenyra was even married, never mind had her first child. Even if Laenor had been the children’s father, Alicent would still have striven to put Aegon on the throne. The Dance of the Dragons was always going to happen, only the outcome was in question.]

We cut to the dragon pit. I found this bit fascinating. But I had a lot of questions. What is the language the trainer is speaking? It sounds like Valeryian but I could be wrong. If it is, then something is going very wrong with these kid’s education if the language has to be translated for them. Another example of the Hightower/Maester influence, perhaps?  Maybe as an Irish person I’m reading too much into this, but I always view a language dying  out from one generation to the next as very sad. I can’t help but view it as one of the thousand cuts to what is left of the Valeryian culture. 

(But - also - why the fuck isn’t Rhaenyra teaching them the language if the Septa/Maesters aren’t? Has she stopped speaking it? Has VIserys?)

The kids are being typical kids, even when they’re being cruel. I know they’re setting up a storyline for Aemond here, so I’m paying attention. The kid definitely has second son syndrome!

We cut back to Alicent and Helaena. Is it just me, or is Helaena coded as neurodivergent? It’s a fantasy world, and I ain’t a doctor, but I thought I saw a few indicators of autism in her behaviour. I especially honed in on the fact she didn’t make any eye contact with her mother, and flinched when Alicent touched her. I felt for Alicent here. She’s trying to connect with her daughter but doesn’t have the tools to do so.

Their moment is interrupted when Aemond is brought into the room, a little worse for wear. 

Also, because of the Aemond comment, we now know Helaena is a dreamer.  (Spoilers, sweetie) 

And then we arrive at the scene I already discussed above, because I can never do anything chronologically, no matter how hard I try. It’s interesting that we’re back in the room they had their first conversation in, when she had been sent there by her father in her mother’s dress. We can reallly see how much the power dynamics have changed. Her frustration is already high here. She began the day believing that this was the day Viserys would at last see things her way but he’s (wilfully) refusing to engage. 

Next she meets up with Ser Crispin Cunt (still not sorry) to vent, and perhaps got more in return than she bargained with. She reprimands him…but. 

And here is the thing with Alicent, her frustration with VIserys is blinding her to the fact that while her husband isn’t listening to her, her vassals are. There was perhaps a hint of wisdom in Viserys’ words. She should be more careful of her words.  The consequences of this conversation with Cristin is the first example of this, but there is of course more to come. 

We cut to Daemon, and at first everything seems well in his life. He had a wife who is also a Dragon rider and of Valeryian blood, something he always hankered for. They have two daughters and a third child on the way, and he’s just  been made a generous offer to settle in Pentos at the feast after his and Laena’s demonstration on Dragonback. He even seems to be discreetly propositioning one of the servers, at least that was the impression I got from the cheeky expression he got in turn. .(Daemon is officially bi. I’m calling it.)

But the feast is then done, and we begin to see the cracks. 

I think it’s so sad Rhaena has equated Daemon’s lack of attention with love. Baela has more of his time, true, but I don’t think that’s what’s going on here. I genuinely think Daemon is depressed and just dragging himself through the day. He managed to summon the energy to help his oldest because he thinks she has the greater need because she has a dragon to bond to. 

For that she needs training and knowledge of High Valeryian and Daemon feels it’s his duty to provide her with that because they don’t have Dragon pit trainers and Maesters at hand. He’s literally homeschooling her. (Also, interesting, in the light of my earlier my earlier comments on  language and culture. Daemon is impulsive but he isn’t an idiot. He’s actually paying attention to his children’s education)  

But the love and attention that both Baela and Rhaena probably need, the gentle rough housing, the silly jokes, listening to their tales and woes? Daemon isn’t present enough in their lives to give them that. Daemon isn’t present enough in any sense of the world. 

We get the impression from Laena that this hasn’t been true the entirety of their marriage, however, and I can’t help but feel that one of the core reasons she wants them to return home is because she believes Daemon would fare better there. She’s worried about him. She’s trying to chivvy him out of his low mood. 

It doesn’t work. He gives her the silent treatment and she’s familiar enough with the tactic to know what it means.

Again I’ve seen some weirdly negative commentary about this scene. Daemon may not be in love with Laena but i think there is genuine affection there. HIs disinterest in his marriage and life is not caused by his relationship with his wife but his depression. 

And it is here that I’m going to sign off on part one. I’ll be able to post part two in a couple of days. 

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

Hi! I don’t know if you have covered this before but do you think Jon/Dan was toxic and abusive? I feel like it was. Like the scene in Mareen where Danny tells Hizdar she has suitor on his knees was foreshadowing. ☹️I think it’s partly Dany never knowing healthy love relationships. I’m not excusing her behaviour but I think it’s a contributing reason.

Hey, Nonnie! So sorry for the delay in my response. I started to answer and had written you back a 10,000 word essay lol but then realized I didn't really answer your question so I scrapped it. And instead wrote you another 10,000 word essay LOL. Sorry! This got long.

I'll be honest, idr if I have gone into this before but no worries, I will go into it here. =)

I do feel that the relationship was toxic and abusive. One of the things I've always stood by when I've been asked why I'm anti-Jonerys (besides Dany becoming a tyrant and the KL massacre) is that the relationship was not good for Jon or Dany. Though I do think the toxicity and abuse of power was coming strictly from Dany's side. Some might disagree and say Jon was manipulating Dany the whole time (if they're willing to admit that pol!Jon or something was there that got dropped in the end) which is also not healthy but their argument gets lost in the context. Had Jon been manipulating her to get some form of power, then yes. But that wasn't why he did it as we know and he tried to do it in the kindest way possible, which falls in line with what Kit said about Jon in season 7. But, regardless, the relationship overall wasn't healthy and really helped to contribute to both of their downfalls in the story.

That's an interesting observation there, Nonnie, and I do tend to agree with you. Like you said, it doesn't excuse her actions but I do think part of it is that she never knew a healthy relationship or type of love. The purest form of love that she has known is absolute devotion from her followers and from men who were blinded by her beauty and in awe of her.

This is just pure conjecture on my part, but I do believe her abusive past with Viserys helped to contribute to that rage she had. As if each time it happened, it stoked the fire within her. I'm not saying it's the sole factor but I think it definitely added to it. She had never known any kind of love before that. She was simply a pawn, a piece to be traded, based on her looks and relation to Viserys.

Then she was with Drogo, which she ended up turning to her advantage. I do think she loved him, possibly as much as he loved her, but as we know it didn't equate to how much she loved Jon. I almost wonder how the relationship between Drogo and Dany would have gone had he survived. Like I would almost have loved to have seen S8 Dany and S1 Drogo together for a moment, to see if she would have kept him as her husband or he also would have become a threat, because she wasn't willing to share the throne. But I digress. While they loved each other, I think that love was slightly tainted due to its beginnings (her being essentially sold to him) and the fact that she had to utilize the knowledge Doreah taught her in order to change the dynamic between them. In that scene linked, to me, it's yet another foreshadowing clue/inside look into Dany's character. "Are you a slave, Khaleesi? Then don't make love like a slave." And then Dany flips her somewhat aggressively onto her back, which catches Doreah pleasantly off guard. But this also shows what Dany's real motive was. She said she wanted to please Drogo, which is why Doreah is instructing her, but ultimately she wanted to turn things to her advantage (which in this scenario, who could blame her?) so that love that develops between Dany and Drogo started a trend of the love of the so-called men in her life. Drogo has this absolute devotion to her (moon of my life), he doesn't behave like any other Khal when it comes to their wives and/or women, and she basically tames him so to speak. To his own detriment, which leads to his downfall and his death.

Then you have Jorah who she never got involved with but he had his own absolute devotion to her and was willing to do anything for her. He kidnapped Tyrion to get back in her favor and goes to find a cure for greyscale so he can go back to serving her because she tells him she needs him. She loved him in her own way, but she never returned the feelings he had for her. But she still had his devotion and he was someone she ultimately trusted and kept close. This farewell scene is very telling imho of the dynamic between them as well of his devotion. A lot of people focus on Dany's farewell to Jon for various reasons, as well as the looking back trope, but to me this was the most important piece:

Jorah was going to say something but she puts her hands into his, letting him know silently that she needs him and to return to her. Jorah sees Jon coming and kisses her hand before withdrawing. But this very image is of someone subservient to someone else. He may not be on his knees doing this but he doesn't need to be; she already has his devotion. So as pure as this love is that he has for her, it's not requited and there is a power dynamic between them. Which is a shame because I dare say that I think had Dany returned his feelings at all, he might have been a healthier love interest for her (later on in the series I mean) and would have been able to temper her impulses. And I only say that because of this scene:

He not only convinces her to let up on Tyrion slightly but also to try and talk to Sansa. And here Dany, while lying through her teeth (about Tyrion stealing Jorah's position; thankfully her manipulation tactic doesn't work here), is not acting as his queen so to speak. (and even notice that she ends up walking away from the open fire, ending up on the other side of the room, which is interesting because Dany was facing the fire when Jorah walked in - very powerful statement the show is making here; the blocking of this scene was super important)

Then you have Daario. Daario who betrayed the other Second Sons' leaders for her and immediately bends the knee, helps her take Yunkai, and begins advising her on how she must rule. He makes a valid point that she needs to know the land she is going to rule (a precursor to the whole Westeros arc) but he also sees who she really is and encourages her to be the dragon basically. He loves her and while she has affection for him and despite getting involved with him, she doesn't return the feelings. But in this relationship, you have the power dynamic at play as well as his absolute devotion.

Then you have Tyrion. Tyrion who considers himself to be a smart man and see through people easily. While he convinces Dany not to execute him once Jorah delivers him to her, as he starts advising her, he begins to have faith in her. He believes she is the answer to the shit world they're in and wants her to make a better world for them all. And in the course of this, he falls head over heels in love with her. He is the antithesis of Jorah. He has devotion to Daenerys but it's not absolute, and Dany knows that. Hence the constant contention between them once things in Westeros starts going sideways. Tyrion saw through her, knew what she was, but he convinced himself that he could guide her and temper her impulses. So he couldn't be wrong and he loved her. This line he says to Jaime isn't just about Jaime and Cersei; it's also about Tyrion and Daenerys and the current dynamic they're in. "You always knew exactly what she was. You loved her anyway."

(I couldn't find the scene of Tyrion walking through the destruction of the battle in 7x05)

From Jaime/Tyrion seeing the destruction to seeing Cersei/Dany, all paralleled. Even this:

Not only does this form of love contribute to Tyrion's downfall (and he obviously didn't learn his lesson from Tysha or Shae), but it also leads to his family and house being wiped off of the map and contributes to the KL massacre. Dany didn't return his feelings but she had a form of affection for him, which lessened the more and more the chasm between them grew. (I have a post I'm currently working on that goes into this more, about Dany's expectation of absolute devotion, including giving up family; I hope to finish it soon and post it) The more and more mistakes Tyrion made that she did not want to forgive. Her line to Sansa in 8x02 proves exactly why she kept him around. "I didn't ask him to be my Hand simply because he was good. I asked him to be my Hand because he was good, and intelligent, and ruthless when he had to be." And we all know how this relationship ended. That Tyrion literally embodies "Duty is the death of love".

And then we have Jon (sorry it took me so long to get here, Nonnie). Jon would have been good for her as well, but not as much as Jorah I don't think. Their relationship, as brief as it was, started on warring power dynamics (mostly on her side), abusive power dynamics (again, from her side), and manipulation (from both). As we all know, that's not a recipe for a healthy relationship. A lot of Jonerys shippers like to point to Dany's proposal in the 8x06 throne room scene as to how this power dynamic between them would have balanced out, but they always miss three big things: 1) Jon was not going to last had he accepted that proposal (she was going to eventually kill him), 2) there was already an abusive power dynamic at play, & 3) this proposal did not happen in a romantic type setting (or even a peaceful or mellow one), it literally took place in a destroyed throne room while the ashes of those burned alive swirled in the air around them. It was not going to be a happy ending for this pairing even if Jon had never grabbed that dagger.

And sure enough, since the relationship started, it has been beyond toxic. I admit, it was more subtle in the beginning, but it definitely became more and more overt as the show continued on. To the point where we now have some very big examples: 8x04, 8x05, and even 8x06 (though this one I would say is more related to the throne and the power struggle than their relationship tbf).

8x04:

Here Jon mentions Jorah at first (because Dany is basically Jon's Jorah in that dynamic but also because Dany wants Jon to be her next Jorah, but one she loves back). Then we get her admitting she loves him and then this breakdown:

Jon kisses Dany but he subtly moves her away from the open fire

Dany begins to try to undress Jon & only then does he return the favor

Jon stops kissing her and moves away (notice how this only happens once she's where he's moved her)

Dany then goes into her spiel about how she wishes she could forget, how she wishes Jon hadn't told her the truth (the audience's initial impression is that it's about how the truth affects their relationship in the love/sex aspect) and how she sees how many people love Jon compared to her

Jon tries to assure her that he doesn't want the IT & she tells him to never tell anyone who he really is

Jon makes it clear that he wants to tell Sansa and Arya who he really is and Dany doesn't like this due to Sansa because it will threaten her claim to the IT; she begs Jon not to tell anyone & when he tries to assure her that everything will be okay, she goes cold (aka comes out of her manipulation attempt) and basically threatens him with "I've just told you how" (and the implied '...or else') & leaves

For me, the most important lines to focus on here are:

"If I didn't know, I'd be happy right now." -> Dany only focusing on how she feels about this situation

"I told you I don't want it." "It doesn't matter what you want. You didn't want to be King in the North. What happens when they demand you press your claim and take what is mine?" -> not only is this foreshadowing for what ultimately would happen to Jon had Dany survived but it also is once again, all about her; not to mention, she now knows the IT isn't hers but in her mind "mine" -> "Dragons don't understand the difference between what is theirs and what isn't." (7x07)

"You can say nothing. To anyone ever. Never tell them who you really are. Swear your brother and Samwell Tarly to secrecy and tell no one else." -> as if this isn't bad enough just by itself, we've seen Jon's struggle throughout the series as a bastard who wanted nothing more than to be a Stark, to have this identity and be embraced as something more than a bastard - we've seen him work hard and how he has moved up the ranks so to speak - we've seen the toll it takes on him to be something he's not (aka his wildling arc, to me it's no coincidence that he falls in love with Ygritte, someone who knows who he really is, a crow, and loves him anyway; and even this hidden thing he has during his Dany arc) - so for her, his only other relative on that side of the family, to deny his identity and want to keep it hidden all because of who he is (which is literally a parallel for the bastard part of his story, like Cat hating him because of his birth, something that can't be helped & is not his fault), as we know for a relationship that's a HUGE red flag - some may say Dany is thinking proactively and politically and to an extent, they're correct, but for the relationship to thrive, both people have to be getting what they need and validate the other - not to mention, Jon is on his knees during this part while she leans over him, gripping his face & saying this, this very image is an abusive power dynamic at play (which is exactly why Jon gets to his feet, he is stunned that she's telling him to deny himself basically)

"Even if the truth destroys us?" "It won't." "It will." -> tbf, Dany is right here but not just the truth about who Jon is, it's also about the truth of Jon "kindly manipulating" her; however, the truth about who Jon is only being told to his other family shouldn't matter here and here's why: Cersei broke the wheel so to speak by becoming the first Queen of the 7K (which is why Dany is so anxious to get her off the throne btw, Cersei beat her to the punch on that one & it doesn't bode well for her destiny and making impossible things happen). Jon's claim, while being strong, doesn't automatically mean that it usurps Dany's now because he's a man. The only way his claim is a threat to her now is because she's a "foreign invader" and like she says in this scene (and in 8x05), Jon has love (and a healthier form of that devotion) where she doesn't. Dany knows if the truth gets out, Jon will have more support and people will want to see him on the IT besides Sansa or any of the Starks. So here we have manipulation coming from Dany (which we already had in this scene, like the hand grabbing for instance, but here it's extremely overt) in order to keep him quiet so she can still "take what is mine". (and the begging him is part of this) And the manipulation as we know isn't healthy either, from either of them tbf, but her endgame is definitely different to Jon's, as well as the means they take to go about achieving them.

"We can live together." "We can. I've just told you how." Her tone and expression changes on a dime here and becomes cold and flat. We then see them break apart and she leaves. -> this is a threat, she's telling him 'don't say anything or else' because of the fact that she says "We can. I've just told you how" after he says "And they are my family. We can live together." And obviously, if there's threats present in a relationship, this is another HUGE red flag and this does not lead to a happy ending. This is toxic and abusive, especially since the threat implies possible bodily harm to Jon or his other family should he tell his sisters the truth about himself.

And then of course they gave us the contrast in these two images to show us exactly who is leading this abusive power dynamic here (as well as showing us the contrast between the two characters since they're two sides of the same coin):

For 8x05, I already went into this a bit here, so I won't go into it too much but we see the abusive power dynamics come sharper into focus, becoming more overt. We see that Jon is actually afraid of what she's going to do when he refuses her advances and makes it obvious that his love devotion for her doesn't run as deep as he had been trying to portray (though we don't find out until 8x06 that his fear is not just about what will happen to the North or Bran or Arya but to Sansa, since Sansa was the biggest threat to her besides Jon himself). It becomes about fear at that point, which Dany basically says herself at the end of the scene, and once that's in the mix (which it already was but the show made it extremely obvious here in this moment), there's no hope for that relationship.

And this scene is also meant to link (as a parallel and contrast) to the 8x04 scene above since they have the open fire, Jon trying to placate her, and how Dany initiates the physical intimacy while also the mention of the truth, Sansa, and "I don't want it" comes into play.

The other scene in 8x05 that I think shows deeper into their relationship is this one:

Even though this is about Varys, some important lines are said:

"There's something you need to know." "Someone has betrayed me." "Yes." "Jon Snow." -> without Tyrion saying anything & her knowing nothing, she automatically assumes that it's Jon (this is not a truly romantic relationship nor is all of this suspicion healthy) - talk about toxic (and while Jorah may have betrayed her in the past & she feels Tyrion is betraying her consistently, Drogo and Daario never betrayed her so yes she may deal with betrayal constantly but there was no reason to assume that about Jon other than paranoia/worry about the truth getting out) -> this points to that Jon is already layered heavily in suspicion in her mind and foreshadows what would have happened to Jon had she survived (she had Jon there at Varys' execution for a reason; the show had Jon there purposely despite the whole Northern army traveling timeline thing they had going on)

"He knows the truth about Jon." "He does." "Because you told him. You learned from Sansa. And she learned from Jon. Though I begged him not to tell her. As I said, he betrayed me." -> even though Tyrion has just told her that it's Varys who has betrayed her, her focus is once again on Tyrion, Sansa, and Jon, with Jon being the worst since he told the truth though she "begged" him not to -> this all ties into the absolute devotion she expects even when it comes to someone's family; had Jon stayed with Dany & accepted her proposal, not only would he have eventually been executed but he would have had to give up the Starks, literally and figuratively, especially Sansa; isolating one from one's family/loved ones is obviously toxic and leads to abuse (if it's not present already)

Then we have the 8x06 scene that I think was foreshadowing Jon's eventual demise itself:

(and funnily enough, right after Dany walks away, Arya shows up & warns Jon about this very thing happening as well as mentioning how Sansa won't accept Dany as queen; "And I know a killer when I see one")

and the bonus is this look when Dany has walked away (before Arya shows up):

(he looks like one smitten kitten, doesn't he?)

So it definitely was toxic and abusive, and it was never going to have a happy ending. Even if the KL massacre didn't happen, let's say. They set it up this way from the get go:

In 7x02, when Dany summons Jon, she makes it very clear that Jon is to come to Dragonstone so an alliance can be brokered (as is indicated by Melisandre, though tbf to Mel, she said Dany should meet Jon and hear what he has to say so there goes Dany taking the words and running with it for her own gain, yet again) but he is to bend the knee first and foremost.

In 7x03, we see Jon and Dany meet for the first time, but we also see something else happening here:

1) Drogon intimidates Jon and Co by flying directly over them (quick side note here: one of the various reasons I'm looking forward to HotD is because I'm pretty sure they're going to be getting into just how much the dragons are bonded with their riders and how they represent them, like Daemon's dragon - this was something that was sorely lacking in GoT and only if people watched behind the scenes do they see David talking about it at the end of season 5 when Drogon saves Dany & in that deleted scene where Jon asks Dany how to control Rhaegal - I'm excited because this is definitely something from the world of the books & if any GoT GA watch HotD, they will finally understand just how much Dany controlled Drogon & how much he represented her)

2) Jon's boat is taken away when it doesn't need to be (they literally could have moved it further up the beach so it wouldn't wash away but the show chose for us to see Jon noticing how his boat is taken away & it plays into Jon now being a prisoner & unable to leave) - while the disarming makes sense, the boat relocation does not, especially since the Dothraki are used to do it (and not the Unsullied - very purposeful - the Unsullied aren't there to make war, they're following orders, the Dothraki are Dany's bloodriders)

3) The first shot we get of Dany (from Jon's POV) is this:

While it makes sense for Dany to make this impression, it doesn't make sense if they're going for the romance angle, despite the rough start they may have at first. If Dany was meant to be seen by Jon as regal, someone to believe in, a powerful but just queen, this shot was the wrong way to go about it. (and we all already know, this show definitely made choices)

4) In Dany's intro scene to Jon, when she doesn't get what she wants (him bending the knee), she instead becomes displeased & threatens him with "As far as I can see, you are the enemy to the North." (which calls back to Jon and Sansa's convo in 7x01 above Winterfell) & then making this point again with "It's also fair to point out that I'm the rightful queen of the Seven Kingdoms. By declaring yourself King of the Northernmost Kingdom, you are in open rebellion." (after Jon literally just explained that the Northern lords put their trust in him to lead them and he would do so as best as he could)

5) Jon likens Dany to Cersei (the enemy to the South that Sansa had been mentioning in 7x01) with "The only reason I can see is you don't want to kill thousands of innocent people. It's the fastest way to win the war but you won't do it which means at the very least, you're better than Cersei." (so now, based on the dialogue itself, we have the setup of them being on opposing sides, and that Dany is indeed an enemy though Jon tries to smooth this over - and now looking back, it's easy to connect the dots even more to that 7x01 scene, since the show was trying to tell us about Dany being another threat in addition to the NK)

6) Dany's speech to Jon in this scene shows who she really is (when she talks about faith, you see a glimmer of that simmering rage shining through) & how she views herself through the lens of how others have viewed her so far, her so-called believers. You can see Jon taking this in (that's not an impressed or awe-struck look he has as shippers claim) and then puts it to her point blank: "You'll be ruling over a graveyard if we don't defeat the Night King." (I really do believe he sees her for exactly what she is in this moment but he needs her help with the NK)

7) When Varys speaks to Dany and basically sends Jon and Davos to rest in their rooms, Jon asks "Am I your prisoner?" He puts voice to everything that this scene has set up to this moment. And she replies with "Not yet." But after everything we've seen, we know he is (because let's face it, Dany wants her northern kingdom, she's not sure exactly yet what she's facing as far as his following goes and how devoted they might be to him, he's not looking at her with awe and wonder like so many others have done, she just lost the Greyjoys and Dorne, and compared to her other Westerosi allies he's showing up asking for help versus the others showing up to help her go for the IT no matter their agendas of revenge)

8) In this scene with Tyrion, not only do we have Jon looking out over the sea (I would say almost longingly), he says point blank: "I'm a prisoner on this island." There it is. He's her prisoner. (and people wonder why he agreed to go beyond the Wall later on after getting the dragonglass lol) And Tyrion confirms this: "I wouldn't say you're a prisoner on this island. You're free to walk the castle, the beaches, to go wherever you want." But Jon isn't having it: "Except to my ship. You took my ship." So Tyrion tries again: "I wouldn't say we took your ship." And Jon shuts him down: "I'm not playing word games with you." And there it is for the audience in a few lines: Jon is Dany's prisoner and he's not allowed to leave, Jon and Tyrion know it, and Tyrion is trying to get Jon to play ball for Dany's benefit. And Jon is refusing to: "I'd like to leave." But Tyrion insists, accesses Jon through his mentioning of the North and his title (aka the trust the North put in Jon). But the line that Tyrion says that is so telling (about Jon and Dany themselves) it's chilling: "Sometimes there's more to foreign invaders and Northern fools than meets the eye." That line, now knowing what we know, sets up the foreshadowing for both of their characters but also their relationship and its dynamic perfectly. And Tyrion's line of "Maybe you are a Northern fool" sets up how Tyrion sees Jon in this dynamic with Dany, that he believed that Jon was really in love with Dany. This episode was written by D&D; these lines were very purposeful & now looking back, you can see it was the setup for the J/D relationship.

9) In this scene where Jon & Dany talk, it starts out with Jon stopped on the stairway, watching a dragon fly overhead. In this shot, we can also see Dany is further down the stairwell, at the Wall, watching them as well. This sets up exactly how Jon is viewing her (as the dragon or something that appears scary and intimidating) as does the beginning dialogue from Jon saying the dragons are amazing things to see. Then we have the conversation where Dany asserts her position as Jon asserts his, both are faced away from each other (in opposition to one another) except when they are asserting their positions, and the attempt to find a common ground by both of them (him mentioning the dragons; her mentioning his brothers) fails. They only are facing each other again when Dany capitulates about the dragonglass. After Jon thanks her, she turns away from him again. He tries once more and asks "So you believe me then about the Night King and the Army of the Dead?" She doesn't answer this but tells him "You'd better get to work, Jon Snow." And he walks away. Because in the throne room scene in this episode, she called him Lord Snow (purposely demoting his title because she is asserting herself as Queen) and he called her Your Grace. So for her to say "Jon Snow" instead of "Lord Snow" demotes him back to his full bastard status that he had in the beginning of the series. And this is why Jon walks away in the fashion he does. So even before their relationship begins, even before this attraction pops up that Davos mentions in 7x04, Dany had already introduced the abuse of this power dynamic and eventually this will become toxic.

10) The cave scene was not only meant to attempt to get Dany to understand the very real threat the world is facing but also shows how Dany uses this moment to her advantage in order to get Jon to bend the knee. It's still about the IT for her & her being in power.

11) In this scene, Davos tries to get him and Jon out of the situation with "You'll want to discuss this amongst yourselves" which Dany immediately denies "You will stay." There was no reason for Jon or Davos to be a part of this conversation, especially since technically Jon and Dany aren't allies yet and Jon has not bent the knee. It's not smart to have things you're discussing with your advisors in front of people who are technically not on your side and could pose a real threat. Even Varys looks surprised that she orders Jon and Davos to stay. But she does this because it's manipulation and slight intimidation. Some might look at her asking Jon's advice as her valuing Jon's opinion, but ultimately she doesn't take it. We see her use Drogon and her army to attack (and burn) the Lannister army on the Gold Road. And we also see her impulsively burn all the food in the midst of the battle. She wanted them, more specifically Jon, to see her rip Tyrion apart (because Tyrion has that link to Jon; he vouched for him in addition to Melisandre & he and Jon have a history) because she's angry and she wants them all to know it. Notice how when the camera is on Tyrion after Dany turns around to unleash on him, in the background Jon takes another step back to get closer to Davos. Varys also takes a step back, as does Missandei and even Davos himself. Tyrion is the only one who doesn't, but he keeps his eyes down as she verbally tears into him. Only in the next shot of him do we see his eyes meeting Dany's but then dropping again. When she says "Our enemies? Your family, you mean. Perhaps you don't want to hurt them after all", the camera is then on Jon, Davos, and Missandei, but the focus is Jon. Because it will come down to Jon's family (Sansa) and Dany herself. That if Jon doesn't give Dany the absolute devotion she's looking for, he will also be in danger himself (without the parentage reveal even). Manipulation and intimidation.

12) Which makes absolute sense to Jon's reaction (or lack of one) to the news of Arya and Bran here. I know people wondered why he didn't react more but the show purposely had Jon's emotional reunion with Bran in 8x01 (& then his private emotional reunion with Arya in the same episode) to show us that Jon obviously cared. He didn't want Dany to see back in 7x05. Which is interesting because technically in 7x06, when Jon bends the knee, that's when his more personal manipulation of Dany starts. But here, the manipulation (to get off of Dragonstone and back North) has already begun. He still wants her as an ally, still needs her help with the NK, but here I don't think he planned to kick that manipulation up a notch. Not until he saw the dragons in action. And in this scene, we see Jon trying to get her to let him go but she comes up with reasons why he can't (and as we start to see, this is to the beginning of developing feelings she has for him). It's only when Tyrion comes up with the Wight plan that Jon agrees to go (once again, trying to get off this island but get Dany as an ally), and when she refuses, he asserts himself again. And this time, she capitulates. The fact that he had to fight for his freedom so to speak, speaks volumes once again to their dynamic.

13) This last scene before Jon leaves Dragonstone, everyone talks about the lack of a look back to Dany from Jon but also about the infamous words Jon says to Dany: "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come, Your Grace." But more importantly, he says this in response to her "I've grown used to him". She is making her interest in him obvious in that moment, to the audience and to Jon, and he instead replies with the infamous line said between enemies. Very telling for how their dynamic is not only viewed by Jon himself but by the writers as well.

So, it was all set up from the get go. And like you mentioned, the foreshadowing of Dany and what she expected in her relationships after Drogo, that scene with Hizdahr was very telling. And we literally see that play out with Jon. So, I absolutely agree with you, Nonnie.

I also agree with you that Dany never knew healthy relationships or even knew what love was. Take her dragons for example. I'm not saying she didn't love them but she definitely used them as weapons long before season 8. I remember watching 3x01 and being shocked at what she says to Jorah about the dragons, after watching the dragons flying overhead fondly.

"They're growing fast."

"Not fast enough. I can't wait that long." (as she's literally stroking Drogon and he's enjoying the attention from his mom - this is part of the reason I don't hate the dragons btw or blame them, it was Dany and the Targaryens that turned them into weapons)

I remember seeing that at first watch and being like 'but they're your children! Wtf?' But it was just one of many things that didn't add up about her (until they did). Plus, my thinking is: Sis, I'd like to see you try to take KL without the Unsullied, the full Dothraki force, and at least one grown dragon. Stannis had an army (and ships) and wasn't able to get it done. What makes you think you would have? Sorry, I digress, but I get irritated when I watch that scene, and slightly protective (I have a thing with fictional animals, I guess).

And she seems to agree with me. "I need an army." (and she looks irritated as she says this while watching Drogon fly off which again made me go 'wtf', almost as if it was the dragons' fault for taking too long to grow)

So even though these dragons are her 'children and the only children' she will ever have, she also views them as weapons. A means to get her what she wants and to instill fear in those she means to rule slaughter and whoever stands in her way. Tbf to Dany, she never knew her mother and she wasn't raised with love, but like you said, Nonnie, it doesn't excuse her actions.

She definitely had no reference point for a healthy and loving romantic relationship since she had never been in one. But again, no excuse. While I can appreciate what she was trying to accomplish, or maybe it's more appropriate to say what she was selling to her believers, she absolutely went the wrong way about it and it should have been no surprise to anyone that things never worked out for her in the romance department. Especially since Jon was never going to be one of those blind followers.

Toxic. And abusive.

Thank you for the ask, Nonnie! I hope I was able to answer you with this 300 page paper LOL. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day!!! <3

[irhinoceri]

Not to be overly critical, but....

I’m about 3 hours into The Stolen Throne, and just got to Rowan’s introduction. First thing she does is punch Maric in the face with an armored gauntlet.

Right. I know she’s his eventual queen (and gets weirdly killed off between novels--since I’ve already listened to The Calling) so this introduction made me pause my audiobook and heave a deep, weary sigh.

First off, I do not understand Gaider’s characterization of Maric. I just don’t. I’m trying to remember back to his portrayal in The Calling and the Until We Sleep comic, and I don’t recall him being a buffoon, but this book is like “Maric is a useless clown who is entirely unprepared to be king” and it’s like the most uncharitable interpretation of Alistair only it makes NO SENSE.

Alistair wasn’t a leader because he was a bastard who was raised with no direction -- no one involved in his upbringing had any real idea that he would be in line for the throne because despite living in a brutal medieval fantasy world, no one expected Cailan to die without an heir. (In the game it’s hinted that Alistair is given the beacon lighting task specifically to keep him away from the battle so that if Cailan fell he would still be alive, but that’s 20 years too late to start planning ahead, of you ask me!)

Anyway, it’s understandable that Alistair isn’t “king material” and has to undergo a character journey (pushed along by your warden and others) in order to grow into someone who will take responsibility. (Shut up Dragon Age Inquisition, I see you trying to retcon that and would like to show you my gauntleted fist). It’s understandable because of his backstory. Raised not to be a king or leader of any kind, actually raised by people who didn’t care about him at all, who even were openly hostile towards him and tried to get rid of him. His joking and self-deprecation and unwillingness to step up and be a leader are all ways to hide insecurity and loneliness and the fact that he has never been loved or respected by anyone. I mean, Fuck Eamon and Isolde Guerrin, and fuck Maric too! Fiona entrusted you with her only son and you fucked up Maric, you fucked up!

Anyway.

Why is Maric an Alistair 2.0? Why the fuck is the son of the Rebel Queen so ill-prepared? I haven’t gotten a satisfactory answer and it’s been 3 hours. Like, I would understand if he were a pampered prince archetype who has been too busy enjoying being rich and privileged to put in the work necessary, that’s a good condemnation of monarchy in general, why someone is deemed fit to rule a nation just because of their parentage, etc. etc.

But let’s consider that his entire life up to this point has been one of exile and war. Yes, the novel makes it clear that he had some privilege because there were always people in Ferelden who support the Rebel Queen and give them a place to live. Much like Daenerys and Viserys Targaryen in Game of Thrones. Unlike the Targaryens, though, Maric still has his mother (father?) and grandfather growing up, and unlike the Targaryens, the Theirins are out of power because they were conquered by an invading empire, they were not deposed in a civil war caused by their own cruelty/madness. So even though Viserys and Daenerys didn’t end up making the greatest leaders (fuck you, GoT, never forgive, never forget) that’s not to say that I think it’s a 1:1 correlation and Maric couldn’t have been raised with his future Kingship in mind.

Anyway, I’m rambling, but I’m just so frustrated with how for 3 hours I’ve just been listening to how useless a king Maric is because he was completely unprepared for his mother to die. She was a great woman, a queen who inspired loyalty and led a rebellion, but she didn’t bother to prepare her son to take her place?? He should have been her second in command at this point! Really now.

If this whole thing was a condemnation of monarchal rule I’d be a little less irritated but I don’t feel like it is, I feel like this is all just a character flaw for Maric to give him an arc. And the problem is that I already witnessed and participated in this arc with Alistair. I was already in Loghain’s shoes playing as the Warden. And you know what, it was Better that way.

Side note, I am starting to realize why I’ve seen people who are pro-Loghain and Anora and hate Alistair/klill him/exile him (or at the very least don’t choose to make him king and have him stay a warden) cite The Stolen Throne as reasons why the Theirin line needs to end. When I played Origins I definitely saw Alistair as needing to rise to the occasion etc. etc. etc. but it’s like.... woof buddy... you really do come from a long line of idiots. I am so sorry.

I did like Maric in The Calling, though. I’m struggling to remember why, but I recall him being depressed and suffering from PTSD so that’s probably a big part of it. The Calling was just Maric and Fiona being sad and doing some sad fucking in the Deep Roads and I was like “Yes, Very Sad People Fucking. My Kink.”

(Joking.. sort of... but broken people finding some solace in one another? Chef’s kiss.)

Oh my god I nearly forgot what I originally meant to rant about.

As irritating as it has been to listen to the Maric and Loghain show, the fact that Rowan fucking decks Maric the instant she shows up in the novel pissed me the fuck off.

This is a guy whos mother was brutally murdered in front of him, has been on the run, got blamed for getting Loghain’s father killed even though Gareth was the one insisting on sacrificing his life for the glory of Fereldan Kings, and had to make a deal with a witch just to survive.... and Rowan’s reaction upon seeing him (knowing that his mother is dead) is to.... punch him?

And I’m supposed to go HUR HUR HUR, here’s a Strong Female Character. That’s right, Loghain, get a hard on for this Strong Female Character who just punched a man who was not threatening her at all, in the face, with a METAL fist because... he’s annoying? He talks too much? He DESERVED to get hit by his future wife because..... reasons!

IDK. I can’t stand Loghain, either. His PoV is very anti-elven and anti-mage (shocker) and I’m wondering when we’re going to get to the part that makes people into Loghain stans.

Anyway, I love Dragon Age.

[coffereadsasoiaf]

I agree with you. If GRRM ever manages to finish the books, he’ll give it more sense. Dany’s story would’ve been great to show that so much power shouldn’t be given to anyone. That while kings and queens can exist, every monarch or ruler should be responsible with the power they have. But instead all they did was shocking the fans and ended up not delivering her arc properly. Anyway, enjoy the books! In my opinion, ACOK is nice but ASOS is more engaging. Just a thought :)

Totally agree anon. I would have been totally on board with an anti-hero arc about her having too much power (because of the dragons) and losing her initial mission to free people from slavery to power for power’s sake. But even though there might have been a couple of “precedents” in her ruling of Mereen, those moments alone were not enough development to tell this arc. They should have worked much harder in both season 7 and 8 to actually have her take actions that would demonstrate she was losing her focus, instead they had her making always the right decision, choosing the welfare of the many over her own goal to get to the IT, listening the her advisers and generally being very balanced overall. And then the narrative punished her for these decisions with loss and unwarranted betrayal and “people not loving her” (despite the fact she had just helped save humanity) and they told us instead of showing us that she was gonna lose it and that this pain was enough to make her burn a city of innocents alive when she had already conquered what she wanted with basically 0 casualties. 

And not only the narrative did not stand on its own, but the “receipts” that D&D then gave in their interviews just proved that they have no idea what they wanted to write (the most disappointing of course being Dany not crying in front of Viserys dying… what the fuck). Which to me is also very clear because after the turn, in the throne scene there’s not even a proper dialogue with Jon about it. For the longest time I was confused as to why didn’t Jon actually ask her “why did you do it when you had already won?” and now I know why: because D&D didn’t know the real reason and they couldn’t have written it, so they had Jon just accept those two delusional sentences she says and then kill her (and this is another thing I hated, the way they had Jon kill her.. not simply by taking out his sword and doing it, but embracing her, kissing her, declaring his love and loyalty to her and doing it when she is in his arms??? why??? there’s no one in the room, just kill her and that’s it! why do you have to create this romantic scenery?? and Drogon not trying to kill Jon.. I mean I better stop cause I could continue forever). I’m sorry for rambling, I have lots of thoughts on the show ending because even though I could see it wasn’t perfect, the last two seasons really drained my love for the story out of me:( the positive thing is that now I’m reading the books :D

About Clash and Storm: I hear all the time that Storm is the best of the series, so I cannot wait!! I know there’s gonna be a lot of really interesting stuff (and that RW… I really REALLY wanna read it even though I know it will break my heart)! And thanks for the massage anon! 💕

[horizon-verizon]

I think Aemond is an interesting character. I enjoy his character even though I don’t agree with his goals because I’m Team Black. However, I do think one thing that people forget while judging Rhaenyra’s reaction to him losing his eye is that Luke literally said “He was going to kill Jace” after the fight. Rhaenyra heard that. She also heard that Aemond called them bastards, which is not just an insult, but is something that can very much threaten their lives

So yes Aemond is her brother, but she has heard that her brother threatened her children in two different ways, so of course she prioritizes her children and wants to find out where Aemond heard the rumor so she can shut that person down and protect her children

Rhaenyra is a mother first and foremost, and she heard that Aemond was about to kill Jace which is why Luke cut his eye in defense of his brother. I don’t for a second believe that Rhaenyra actually wanted Aemond tortured. She just wanted Viserys to do what he did, ask him where he heard the rumor, so she could shut down the source of the rumor once and for all

Anon is referring to the ask HERE.

A Little More from Episode 7:

Aemond: Then you should've claimed her! Maybe your cousins can find you a pig to ride. It would suit you. ( yells, fight*)

Aemond: Come at me again and I'll feed you to my dragon! (more yelling and fighting)

Aemond: You will die screaming in flames just as your father did! Bastards.

Lucerys: My father's still alive!

Aemond: He doesn't know, does he, Lord Strong?

Yeah, anon. Whether or not Aemond was actually going to seriously hurt either of Jacaerys or Lucerys at that moment, whether or not he had his rock down as he threatened the others *EDIT*(he actually picked up the rock a 2nd time)*EOE*:

his threat to have Vhagar kill them

the vivid imagery of a dying man in flames

serious insult of “bastard” (as an insult alone, it’s a word with similar value as someone calling a woman a “cunt” in the U.S.)

PLUS the already existing rivalry (that’s never delved into in the show because of the jump cuts)

PLUS how they were fighting in the moment, thus the high volatility 

PLUS if he and they all always duked it out  (in those jump-cut scenes), and the V boys hheard Aemond say this thing that Jace would have been sensitive to (episode 6, Rhaenyra answers him whether Harwin is their dad)

He felt that Aemond was a real threat then. Whatever we the audience think, he had very good reasons for feeling so. With the boys already having real beef, for years, why wouldn’t Lucerys feel that Aemond would seriously hurt them? 

Plus, they were younger than Aemond, so they will have much less control over their emotions and fight/flight response.

I also do not think that either Show! or Book!Rhaenyra desired to seriously harm Aemond. It’s about priorities, and one’s own children will always come first. 

Some people feel that Rhaenyra has to be over-accommodating towards absolutely everyone else except herself all the goddamn time--at risk to herself and her kids. 

It’s like people expect her to look at her own kids as if they are less then, that she should look at herself as “impure” or evil for not following terrible, unfair, and discriminatory rules set against her. they want her to feel guilt and shame, hang her head and submit to others’ attacks because she’s wrong and they’re right.

But wouldn’t that make her into a horrible mother, to do nothing?! Rhaenyra is damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t even with some green stans, some Rhaenicent stans, or anti-Targs. 

Why don’t they say that Alicent shouldn’t have charged Lucerys--a boy much younger than her own son--and try to take out his eye? Lucerys is the blood nephew of her own son. And her husband’s grandchild. It isn’t about blood relations and family affection for her son but because she hated Rhaenyra.

It’s sexism and misogyny from her as well as from the groups I listed. 

I really can’t believe that if Rhaenyra was a man and the male heir apparent, and if {male-Rhaenyra} decided to hide the fact that his firstborn was not his wife’s, that people would cry: “Well he should have scolded his child and considered how much Aemond wanted his compassion and treat him as his real blood brother. He’s being so unfair!” (He would have a much easier time anyway since no one would question him as hard as they do Rhaenyra for choosing to just never reveal that his child was not his wife's in the first place. Because his position as a male heir wouldn't be as questioned because of his maledom, definitely not in any way the same as Rhaenyra is...which is the point of the Dance's conflict!)

No, anon, some people--including the dudebros who hate Rhaenyra and love or approve of Alicent--would say {male-Rhaenyra} was a pathetic little bitch boy, or call him “weak” for not challenging Alicent directly or for even “indulging” in Alicent’s call for his child to have his eye taken in recompense.

[hamliet]

I take immense solace in the fact that everyone across the board, save the "Dany is Hilter" assholes, think that Daenerys's Heal Face Turn from light gray anti-heroin into psycho murder bitch was entirely entirely unconvincing. The people have spoken and They. Did. Not. Buy. It. They see it as an insult to a great character and, perhaps more importantly, the audience. I say that because it will effect how this show and Daenerys lives in the popular consciousness moving forward. (1/2)

(2/2) I think that people will still say Dany is still a great character who was ruined by two hacks and everyone is waiting day by day for GRRM to give us all the “real story” and people will see the last two seasons as badly written fanfic.

Right? Lol at least we’re in solidarity!

Yeah, it’s currently sitting at 49% on Rotten Tomatoes. No GOT episode has ever fallen so far; precious few fall below 90. It deserves to be lower, imo, because even though it was well-directed, that was a lot of gratuitous horror, some sexual assault for no point other than to just to go out the same way GoT came in, and some honestly poor CGI when the Dragon flew over the Iron Fleet. But Sapochnik did what he could with it, I guess, though I do not give him a pass for his role in it. 

So yeah. I, too, have a sense of schadenfreude when I see it falling so low. It’s what it deserves. I agree with you that Dany is a great character who deserves better, and my motto is “do it for her” right now. I don’t have a lot of hope for their prequels and won’t be watching unless people I trust convince me they’re excellent. 

It was just so bad. So bad. I can’t buy it–the show seems like it gaslighted Dany into insanity. There was nothing in the actual show to suggest Dany was going insane. The Viserys thing–well, Arya, Sansa, Jon, Ned, etc. were similarly cold when executing terrified people. Why were we to see Dany as different from those heroes? 

You can’t encourage your audience to see a character as a hero for ten years and then be like SURPRISE VILLAIN. It doesn’t work that way, especially when there is no logic to it, and when they so cruelly totted out the pregnancy red herrings.

I want to talk about this, because of how painful this is for me in particular. Red herrings only work in fiction when you have something more satisfying to offer your audience. To directly allude to a Jonerys pregnancy at least four times last season and to have the directors even laugh and comment “we’ll see about that!” when Dany says she can’t have kids in a commentary… they knew what they were doing. Why tease hope when you would have known by that point? 

Look, infertility is awful. I have not actively tried to have kids, but I most likely have endometriosis (you can’t confirm it except with surgery) which might make it hard to get pregnant, and I want to be a mom more than anything. Women without kids are often portrayed as crazy and evil in media, and this compounded that, and to tease us with a miracle, with the Breaker of Chains breaking the curse a witch set on her, teasing us so deliberately to the point where it wasn’t subtle at all that she would conceive a baby with Jon… and then to be like LOL NAH she’s insane. That hurts. That is cruel. 

I really hope this isn’t GRRM’s ending. I hope he’s an elaborate clown who will be like I LIED TO THEM BECAUSE I SAW THEM FOR CLOWNS HERE’S THE REAL ENDING because I will gobble it up if so. 

But I’m afraid this madness schtick might be GRRM’s last twist too. Could they really get away with changing that much? If they did, then justice for GRRM. But I’m not so sure. I do think that if Dany goes mad in his books, it’d be well written character wise since he is good with characters, but I am fairly critical of ASOIAF and always have been, and knowing this is a fave of mine’s fate would probably keep me from reading. Unless I hear it’s different from the fandom! There’s a ton of fat especially in books 4 and 5, a lot of sexual violence that isn’t necessary (Lollys Stokeworth I’m so sorry sweetie), and there is a bumbling structure that meanders too much. If Dany goes insane at the end of it, there… is absolutely no structure at all no matter how well he pulls it off, and I’m just. I’m tired. I don’t want another book about the infertile abused woman going insane just like her daddy and being put down like a mad dog by her lover. 

GRRM’s MO with ASIOAF has been subverting expectations. If this is his ending, he did not subvert them. He just imposed a fairly common ending on his beloved characters, so it’s mediocre and average at best. Othello this is not. 

[renaissansu]

In another life with maybe 3 seasons more instead of just this 1 or perhaps a change of the past few seasons, i could understand D&D's justifications for everything happening. But with the way it is, there are no stakes- nothing to fight for, no one to support or hate aside from the fact that we've known them for the past 8 seasons, no change in character development, no reason to care who sits on the iron throne- left at this point. I don't even care about watching the final episode except for the fact that I've been this invested for 9 years that I can't not watch it.

Lemme just summarize the three people done the dirtiest this past ep. (warning, it’s long yall) maybe i should put a keep reading thing here LMAO

1. Jaime - Jaime has always been one of my favorite characters.  In the beginning, he was this king-slayer whose reputation he both embraced and deconstructed through his wittiness and apathy toward anything regarding the iron throne.  He goes as far as to sit on it just to prove how much he doesn’t want it.  He unraveled the expectations of knighthood and chivalry while somehow being the luscious caricature of a knight.  I liked that he never really took anything too seriously except for perhaps one could dub his “fatal flaw,” his love for Cersei, which was both disgusting and intriguing.  But, throughout the seasons we see Jaime as a much more complex man than the lovesick man he is when he pushes Bran out the window.  He’s also the only source of kindness among monsters who treated Tyrion as a monster, he’s capable of (AT THE VERY LEAST) showing affection and care toward Brienne while simultaneously respecting her as a woman and a knight, he feels remorse toward pushing Bran and sympathizes with Catelyn when she loses Ned, and so many more small examples.  He’s the type of character who’s done so many shitty things but he’s not a shitty person, though he perhaps believes he is.  It was as if his exchange with Tyrion and him killing Euron was meant to remind us of that only to mimic Bran’s words to Theon or Arya’s “thank you” to Sandor.  As if he, like the other two, are redeemed in their misdeeds and die as good men.  However, Jaime dying after going back to Cersei is not a way of showing how our fatal flaw consumes us or that people don’t always change.  It is not even an attempt at shock value because it’s so obvious that it’s his flaw.  It’s simply just boring and an erasure of his character arc.  He’s not even the one to convince Cersei to ring the bells and surrender... what was even the point of tyrion telling him that besides to tell the audience of what the bells mean... like... we woulda been knew by him saying the same thing to Daenerys.  Somehow Jaime saying “Cersei always called me the stupidest lannister” is supposed to ignore all of the other Good Things he’s done and just say, oh he’s just a stupid fool in love with the wrong woman.  WHICH HE IS NOT.

2. Cersei - Unlike Jaime who only loves Cersei, Cersei, as many in the show have reiterated and BEAT WITH A CLUB this season, only cares about her children.  This was what made her such an empowering (though immoral ofc) character as she stood behind Joffrey’s cruelty and transformed into a monster herself as Tommen and Myrcella die, leaving her childless.  Cersei is cruel, methodical, and in some ways trigger happy, but she’s not afraid to die (like when she’s about to murder-suicide herself and tommen in s2).  Of course no one wants to die, especially a mother about to have a child with the only man she ever loved and the only man who has given her children, but her screaming “I don’t want to die” at the end of the episode was so ludicrous i actually laughed.  You’re meant to hate cersei, and we got that throughout the past 4 seasons.  She’s a Bad Woman and a Bad Queen.  We get it.  She needed to be this powerful force in order for it to make sense that she’s the final boss so to speak, not the Ice King (don’t even get me started on how rushed that ending was... but yaaaas Arya is That Bitch).  The series has been building to her defeat and the reclamation of the iron throne... only to be thwarted in her quick death with the love of her life Jaime.  I personally didn’t need her to be killed by Arya or like idk stabbed in utter anguish by Jaime (though that woulda been more fulfilling tbh), but her death was so... anti-climactic.  I wasn’t shocked, I wasn’t satisfied.  I was just left with, oh Cersei dies because Danerys wants the city to burn.  

For Cersei and Jaime both I question why make characters so complex and tortured, only to kill them without reason or stake? This is not like Catelyn and Robb whose deaths were both shocking AND vital to the plot.

3. Daenerys - Let me preface this by saying I’m a Sansa stan, take that as you will.  I’ve never been a huge fan of Daenerys, though I love her character design and totally understand why so many people love her.  Sansa and Daenerys to me could have been the greatest companions to each other, but instead they became rivals.  Sansa is wary of outsiders and justifiably so, but she’s not spiteful anymore than any other westerosi toward the Targaryens.  Her dislike of Daenerys seems to function only to warn the audience that Dany may not be as good as we think and I’m not buying it.   Much like Sansa, she starts as a naive girl who’s thrown into these shitty environments by men forced to adapt and overcome.  Both of them grow up very quickly to realize that the world isn’t the pretty box of fine silks and handmaidens they grew up with.  But, unlike Sansa, I personally never thought that Daenerys lost all of her innocence.  Where Sansa has grown hard and unforgiving, Dany wants freedom above all else- though somtimes perhaps this came in the form of revenge.  She’s fought for the underdogs, she’s the breaker of chains, the mother of dragons, and she’s literally EARNED everything she owns.  She maybe a Targaryen, but her position of power was NOT inherited like her mad father’s and her recent ancestors.  I just can’t for one second fathom why it’s supposed to make sense that she’s becoming a mad queen just because of the fact she’s a Targaryen, especially since Jon is also half-targaryen and like only her father was a very very bad ruler (i mean lets be real have we forgotten how bad Robert or Joffrey were at this point and they AREN’T targaryens).  To me, Daenerys is still fighting because she wants and knows she can challenge/redeem the misdeeds of her father.  She wants to return the stasis.

In some ways, sure, her becoming a Mad Queen only helps to boost Jon’s true right to the throne and becomes yet another obstacle in his way to getting there.  Looking at Dany’s character, I can somewhat understand why they went into portraying her as becoming a mad queen. However, I really don’t find it making sense to have her turn immediately just because she wants revenge for two of her closest advisers/friends (one of which is not even killed by a Westerosi).   Daenerys has been that character to me that I love because she’s powerful and unapologetic, but I have sensed a bit of unease in her naivety of sorts (understandable considering she’s had like no positive representations of what a queen or king does i.e. only having her father or robert to go by) in her dealing with the masters over the unsullied and burning men at qarth.  To me, those are way more bigger indications of her subtle character flaws as a queen than her killing her brother like what??? if i were her i’d kill her brother after viserys said “i’d let the whole khalasar and their horses fuck you” LIKE???? WHAT??? Emilia Clarke does an amazing job of portraying Daenerys’ pain at being in love but unloved, and utterly alone in a foreign land.  It’s just so dirty and disheartening to see yet another strong (in all definitions) female character subjected to demonizing emotions which will be her downfall.  I mean, I’ll even agree that I never really saw her to be the one sitting on the iron throne. To me she doesn’t even need to be on the throne to have a good ending because she’s been a great conquer and not a queen.  We never got to really see what happens to the cities she frees in Essos beyond providing her with an army.  But, can’t she be the one person in GOT to realize that winning the throne is one thing and ruling it is another? She could have understood the one thing that Robert Baratheon failed to recognize.  Can’t I just imagine Dany yielding the surrender of kings landing or something and defeating Cersei with Jon only to have an Arya “that’s not me” moment while about to sit on the throne and Jon becomes the king IDK (i’m looking to you LOTR)  ANYTHING besides what’s happening to her...

I think what bothers me the most is that I don’t even have to watch D&D’s explanation at the end of each episode because I can tell exactly why they think everything they’re doing is good, even though it’s such bad writing.  I don’t want to hate on GOT because I do think that the show is overall great/deserving of its success and has well-written parts.  I respect all of the actors/actresses, crew members, writers and episode directors, even D&D for bring us this amazing show, I just feel slighted that things could have been so much better if we were offered perhaps more seasons to develop these arcs or were better leading up to these moments. 

TL;DR GOT has been great to me these past 9 years, but I’m ready for it to be over

but also...

[howlandreads]

“When You Play The Game of Thrones, You Win or You Die.”

Though the phrase “Game of Thrones,” is used semi-often in the books, 14 times roughly, it’s only used a handful of times in the show.  I think there’s some foreshadowing behind this decision.  In the books, the phrase is used to refer to the broad relationship between rulers, their people, and those trying to depose them, but in the show, the phrase is used sparsely, and is almost always used to refer to one specific person’s ambitions for the Iron Throne or a Kingship. In the books, the phrase most likely won’t prove true, since thousands of people are considered to be playing the game of thrones, but D&D’s limited use of the phrase in the show allows it to turn into an accurate prediction, since the only people left playing the show’s definition of the game of thrones are Jon, Cersei, Dany, and to some extent, Euron.

Since Euron is clearly a peripheral character, who really has no chance to sit on the Iron Throne or claim a real kingship, this post will focus primarily on Jon, Cersei, and Dany.

I think the season 8 winner of the “Game of Thrones,” will be Jon, as he’s the only one of the three that I view as not having immense foreshadowing for an eventual death.  I’ll start with Cersei, since she has the most death foreshadowing:

The most obvious of all the death foreshadowing for Cersei is clearly the Valonqar prophecy:

“’Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,“ she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.’"

- Cersei Lannister VIII, A Feast For Crows

This prophecy pretty much confirms Cersei’s death.  Other evidence for her soon-coming death is that Westeros can’t last much longer while Cersei is alive.  Her paranoia and general governing incompetence can’t be sustained by the realm much longer.  One of the best examples of Cersei’s incompetence is when she tortures the Blue Bard into falsely confessing to having slept with Margaery, and even encourages him to change his story when she’s displeased with his original confession:

"’The truth.’" Wat looked at her with the one blue eye that Qyburn had left him. Blood bubbled through the holes where his front teeth had been. "I might have . . . misremembered.’"

- Cersei Lannister IX, A Feast For Crows

Torturing the Blue Bard into a confession that falsely incriminates Margaery is peak petty and reckless Cersei.  She hardly even considers how destabilizing her actions will be for the realm. Actions like this, combined with her burning of the Tower of the Hand and general disregard for the conditions of her people, mean Cersei can’t survive much longer or else Westeros won’t be able to recover.

Onto the foreshadowing of Dany’s death - the first of which being her House of the Undying prophecy about three betrayals:

“’. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love.’”

- Daenerys Targaryen IV, A Clash Of Kings

Though it hasn’t been confirmed, Dany believes the first two betrayals to have happened already – Mirri Maz Duur’s blood magic being the first and Jorah’s spying for gold being the second, which just leaves the third betrayal for love. Since Dany has just one betrayal it seems it can be assumed that it will be the worst, especially since love is widely considered to be one of the most powerful motivating forces.  Martin seems to share this belief, especially when you consider this quote from Maester Aemon:

“’We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.’”

- Jon Snow VIII, A Game Of Thrones

Since love is such a powerful motivator, this betrayal could easily be severe enough that it leads to Dany’s death.

The next bit of foreshadowing for Dany’s death is this quote from A Dance With Dragons:

“Dragons plant no trees.”

- Daenerys Targaryen X, A Dance With Dragons

This quote clearly implies that Dany has no intentions of maintaining a kingdom, and also seems to imply that she has no intentions of living long passed her youth. This mentality fits with Dany’s ambitions as a conqueror, and how she’s never been able to govern anywhere long-term. Much like Cersei, Dany also shares a general incompetence for ruling, and Westeros wouldn’t last long under her reign, either.

The last bit of foreshadowing I’ll mention for Dany’s death is her increasingly similar character traits to her dead relatives, particularly Aerys and Viserys. Characters are constantly comparing Dany to her father, and the similarities are only growing stronger as her tendency to burn people alive grows more apparent.  Her burning of the Tarlys in particular parallels Aerys, since it was the burning of a father and son.  

Dany’s parallels to Viserys also point to her eventually meeting an end similar to his. Though Dany is nowhere near as despicable as Viserys was, she has still done some troubling things that are reminiscent of him.  The first of which is her adopting of the concept of waking the dragon.  Throughout the first book, Viserys constantly uses this phrase to justify his abuse of Dany and others:

“Her brother hurt her sometimes, when she woke the dragon.”

- Daenerys Targaryen I, A Game Of Thrones

"’You woke the dragon," he screamed as he kicked her. "You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.’"

- Daenerys Targaryen II, A Game Of Thrones

By the time Daenerys has reached A Dance With Dragons, she has adopted the phrase and no longer views it negatively:

“Daenerys pushed her hair back. "Find these cowards for me. Find them, so that I might teach the Harpy's Sons what it means to wake the dragon.’"

- Daenerys Targaryen I, A Dance With Dragons

Clearly Dany is embracing the cruelty of her brother, and is surrendering to her darker impulses.  

I think Dany becoming a Mad Queen similar to Aerys and Viserys was all foreshadowed at the end of A Game of Thrones during her dreams when she seems to be being chased by a dragon:

“Suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.”

- Daenerys Targaryen IX, A Game Of Thrones

I view this as symbolism of Dany’s Targaryen madness slowly pursuing her and eventually over taking her.  Since Aerys and Viserys were killed by those who were tired of their privileged attitudes, madness, and tyranny, as Dany grows more and more similar to them, she will suffer a similar fate.

Onto the last of the contenders in the game of thrones – Jon.  Though there are loads of theories that involve Jon dying in the end, I just don’t see it happening.  Jon is the most capable leader of the three, and since he’s already died once, another death would be incredibly anti-climactic.  

Though GRRM usually avoids tropes, I think he’s intentionally used Jon as a way to deconstruct the “Savior Trope”.  I believe Jon will end up being Azor Ahai, but since he’s a complicated and at times morally grey character, he isn’t just a run of the mill fantasy protagonist. Jon also won’t fit the typical “Savior Trope” mold since he won’t be the only character that plays an important role in bringing Westeros to peace.  GRRM has been sure that characters like Bran and others will be incredibly important to the story’s end game, so no one character will be a savior.

Since GRRM has gone to so much trouble to use Jon to deconstruct the “Savior Trope”, I don’t think he’d see it as predictable or unrealistic for Jon to either end up on the Iron Throne or King in the North.

Out of Jon, Cersei, and Dany, Jon is the only capable leader and deserves to win the Game of Thrones.