#aro erasure is obviously bad

[princsstwilightsparkl]

saying "if aroace people can date, then can lesbians date men?" is absolutely aphobic narrative btw!

[evamaury]

RANT!!

i hate that the one time aro/ace stuff is being recognized as an orientation is to excuse aro/ace erasure by saying that aroace ppl can still date and what not

like… yeah we can… but the character is clearly repulsed 😭 whenever something is implied for a characters sexuality, everyone immediately says it’s canon unless the implication is that the character is aromantic/ asexual repulsed istg

usually ppl say that talking abt this sorta stuff is pointless because the fandom will just do whatever they want anyway, and you’re right, but that doesn’t mean that i’m not allowed to feel upset?? like let me speak my truth girl

i can literally go on a whole tangent with how i feel abt everything just in relation to this. aro/ace ppl have had such bad and minimal representation for like ever so it just feels so invalidating seeing a once in a life time occurrence of an aro/ace character being a thing just to be dwindled down into an allonormative character all under the guise of “aro/ace ppl can still date / have sex!” like, obviously, but you’re missing the point.

tbh, i feel like we just need more aro/ace repulsed characters in general just because romantic and sexual relationships are so normalized and just EVERYWHERE.

like i would love demi, grey, aego characters and so on but the world is just not ready for characters lacking/ not feeling romance and sexual feelings yet so baby steps i suppose

also before anyone comes at me for “invalidating” aspec ppl im literally asexual and cupioromantic myself sooo 🤓

[sukunasbabygirl]

I didn’t want to say this because I felt really bad over being to pushy but I realised that with this it’s okay to be pushy.

What I’m talking about is the erasure of Hunter’s bisexuality.

I know that a lot of people may not have noticed it and aren’t aware of the bi flag pictured on Hunter’s stitched shirt. It’s easily missed, and I get that! But I also think that some people are just openly ignoring it, which is deeply frustrating.

I myself am guilty of calling it ‘implied bisexuality’ because I was scared people would argue that it’s not been verbally confirmed. However, when Eda’s box had the bi flag on it, I’m pretty sure that most people accepted that as Bi Eda being canon, and those who didn’t had to put on the clown makeup because it later got verbally confirmed. Luz also has a bi flag on her hat too!

With this in mind, Hunter should be accepted as a canonically bi character. The crew wouldn’t just put a bi flag on his shirt for no reason if we look at the previous two examples. Side note that with headcanons such as Aro/Ace/Aroace Hunter, that’s fine as he can still be bi with those labels!! But headcanoning Hunter as gay for example while being aware of this bi confirmation and actively ignoring it… that’s biphobia.

The negative part of me thinks the ignorance to Hunter being bi may also stem from how bi men are treated in general (I am a bi man myself and oh boy… it isn’t good) but that’s a topic for a whole other day.

Also I’m aware one argument is that he also put the Japan flag on that shirt so obviously he has no clue what those flags mean. Maybe Hunter just likes anime and/or thinks Japan is cool, or maybe he just thought the flag was neat etc etc, but the crew wouldn’t put a pride flag for no reason, and we see the lesbian and bi flag in the scrapbook later on so it’s safe to assume Hunter is familiar with the flags.

I think another argument is the flag colours are off but… yeah that’s still the bi flag. They wouldn’t use those colours in that order, even if the purple is way lighter, accidentally. That was intentional.

Please if you see this post all I’m asking is you do acknowledge Hunter’s canon bisexuality and stop making excuses to erase it. Please.

[aroaceconfessions]

I keep seeing the same confessions on here that basically boil down to "You think YOU have it bad? well actually WE have it worse!!! WE are ACTUALLY OPPRESSED by people like YOU" and i think that these posts, while obviously fueled by strong emotions of feeling as if they are being ignored or erased, are missing the bigger picture of us all being oppressed from many different angles. For example: Sex/Romance repulsed aros and aces are facing intense mistreatment from allo people. They get called sex negative and freaks and are told "everyone likes sex/romance" "You're a heartless monster if you don't love!" "you'll find the right person who will fix you" "it sounds like a medical disorder" and a plethera of sexist, ableist, and other such things. This caused Repulsed aro and aces to separate themselves. They begin to actively show hatred for these things besides repulsion because they are constantly being forced upon them and told they are wrong. which then leads to the idea that anyone who doesn't feel this way is actively against them and part of the group that's hurting them. This of course isn't the case but this leads into the problem that Sex/romance favorable (not positive. Positive/negative and favorable/repulsed are two separate things) have within the community, which is being told they aren't actually ace or aro for being favorable/wanting romance and sex. Now this is very obviously wrong. it pushes actual ace and aro people out of their own community and isolates them. It doesn't help that this can also be used against them in terms of allos using them as a talking point and excuse to erase aromantic and asexual characters by completely misunderstanding sex/romance favorable and identities that have the chance of feeling sexual/romantic attraction (such as Grey or Demi) and this isn't a fault of these identities but it is often attributed to them and they are made to be "part of the problem" when they themselves are the ones facing the same problem as everyone else in the community, which is erasure and their identities not being taken seriously.

Idk i think there's a larger conversation to be had here about how a specific oppression of one part of the community had lad to a wider oppression coming from within the community against it's own memebers when in reality the ones who are really causing all the problems are the amatonormative allo society that doesn't care about any part of our community in the grand scheme of things. And yes, both groups should be allowed to express how their specific mistreatment hurts them and the figuration with that but attacking one part isn't going to make allos take anyone more seriously.

sorry this is long I've just seen an influx of submissions to this account that are like this and I think everyone needs to slow down, take a deep breath, and just think about why such infighting is happening before joining in on it. The truth is we are all facing the same oppression, no one group is the cause of said oppression, we are all just being hurt in different ways and we should help each other rather than add to that hurt.

[afooldyedinfolly]

No actually I’m gonna make my own post because I really need us to remember this.

Aro community, and especially aroallo community, I understand that we’re frustrated by intracommunity issues pertaining to erasure, sex-shaming, and general aroallophobia within the greater aspec community, and especially towards alloaces who often perpetuate the whole ‘we can still feel (romantic) love!’ thing, or the idea that they’re purer than allos for it (which tbh i think for a lot of them is a trauma response to living in a society that shames them for not being available to their partners or ‘maturing’), but I NEED you to remember that the average alloallo do not actually view alloaces with the same rose tinted glasses that alloaces talk about themselves.

The vast majority of alloallos do not think alloace= good, aroallo=bad. They think we’re BOTH broken, just in different ways. One is pitiful, the other is dangerous. Neither of us are in good standing.

Do you have ANY idea how many alloaces I know who’ve suffered corrective rape from ‘well meaning and concerned’ partners????  Like any fucking idea????? It’s quite frankly fucking HORRIFIC. I know this is something all LGBT+ people face and obviously don’t have statistics, but the sheer fucking number of alloaces I’ve heard share stories about this specific subsection of corrective rape is just. Beyond horrific.

Like. I need us to remember that all of us are struggling. All of us are hurt by an amatonormative and allonormative society. The erasure and aroallophobia in the community is unacceptable, obviously, but we cannot turn around and pretend like alloaces have it soooooo much better than us for whatever little shred of awareness others have of them, or for whatever perks they may have for being a figure of pity rather than a figure of fear.

[drowninginredink]

Okay rant time. Because if you're following me, you at least tolerate my aro bullshit. I'm going to say things I really shouldn't say, at all, ever, because I am just done. You have been warned. If you're offended by it, that is your fault. I am going to mention specifics and let me be clear. No one has done anything wrong. But people do hurt me without meaning to and without doing anything that's objectively bad and I'm just tired of biting my tongue. I don't feel seen or heard, and I'm feeling like maybe if I just shout a little louder that will change. I'm probably wrong, but ignoring these feelings hasn't worked, so I've got to try something else.

I just. I'm sick of it. Sick of always starting out loving fics in the beginning, when we're in the friends portion of friends-to-lovers, and then inevitably, no matter how much I'm in love with the whole fic, it always turns romantic eventually and my affection diminishes. And sure, that doesn't make me not like it, or hate it, but now I'm looking at all these feelings I don't experience and feeling like an alien. Again. For the millionth time.

I'm sick of every fic that I see people cooing over being romantic. Especially when it's too romantic for me to even do my usual thing of reading it anyway and just trying to enjoy what I can. I'm just so sick of seeing everyone worship one particular person on here (and this is not to call them out. They have done nothing wrong. And if you're mutuals with me, I can promise you it isn't you) when they write stuff that's so romantic it sent me into a crisis because normally I do not think about how everyone else thinks so fundamentally differently to me. But I could not even comprehend these feelings they had a character experience and had to ask a friend if allos actually feel that way. It was a good fic, and it wasn't their fault because everyone has a right to write whatever they want, but it wrecked my shit and not in the good way. And just, seeing everyone talk about how that fic was great murders me because it is just proof that the entire world is not like me and does not understand me.

I'm tired of people telling me that they would never write the relationships that are the ones I want. I shouldn't say that, because everyone has a right to write whatever they want, and you all are perfectly nice people who I don't want to piss off and who are my mutuals and are my friends even, but goddamn I'm sick of pretending that it doesn't absolutely fucking kill me that you all look at the kind of relationships I want to have, and the kind of life I want to live, and you cannot put yourself in my shoes for even a thousand words. You can't comprehend living like me. Do you know how much of a slap in the face that is? That you can't even try it once? Do you know how many times I've written romantic shit? But you can't even think about living like I intend to live. For my entire fucking life. I know I shouldn't feel entitled to anyone writing anything but goddamn I'm sick of swallowing my feelings when I'm expected to empathize with romance all the time, but people can say "yeah I'd never ever write that" to my face as if that's a decent thing to say and they don't expect me to be hurt and offended. And I know I'm a dick for that because it is awful to expect anyone to write anything but... The fact that people can say that to my face and expect me to be perfectly understanding. No. Actually. It hurts.

AND THEN SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING I SHOULD LIKE, SHOULD LOVE, IS EXACTLY THE THING I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR PEOPLE BESIDES JUST ME TO DO... AND THEY DO AN AROMANTIC ERASURE. BECAUSE ONLY ASEXUALS EVER EXIST. GOD FORBID. DIDN'T YOU KNOW THAT ACES EXCLUSIVELY INVENTED AND POPULARIZED QPRS? WELL OF COURSE THEY DID, BECAUSE EVEN IF AROMANTICS LIKE THEM TOO, THE ONLY AROMANTICS THAT EXIST ARE AROMANTIC ASEXUALS, OBVIOUSLY.

I just. I'm not going to stop doing any of what I'm doing. I still will be out here writing and reading and pushing my aro agenda. I probably should pull away from fandom if it's causing me this much grief... But to do what? Take in normal media that's also allo as fuck? Listen to all my music that's also about romance? Watch movies and TV shows with romantic subplots to ignore? Stop writing things that make me genuinely happy? Expect people to read my fics but not read anyone else's? Stick to the same 3 podcasts that used to be pretty much the only media I was taking in and maybe now I'm realizing that's because they are all very platonic in vibe?

And it also doesn't help that according to that poll this fandom is apparently 50% arospec and yet I see no one else complaining. Ever. And to be fair, I guess I didn't either before this post. I guess you all must just be biting your tongues like me. Well. For the moment I'm done. And if anyone actually read this and heard me and can relate, please do feel free to let me know I'm not alone, because I sure fucking feel it. I shouldn't feel it. I've seen the kudos numbers on my aro fics. Kudos numbers that high should prove something. But they don't apparently. Apparently I just think every one of them is an alloromantic who is glad to read about my experience for one story, but then goes back to their little lives of only thinking about romance.

I just. I'm tired of writing my own representation. I want someone else to do it too. Someone who I didn't have to ask to do it. I appreciate everyone who does encourage me or take my prompts or enthuse over my headcanons and fics but I am still very aware that I had to be the person to think of it first.

I like writing. I can't stop. I don't know what I'd do with myself if I stopped. Well, I do know. I'd go back to what I was doing before, which was mostly spending too much time playing video games on my phone. I like being creative with my time instead. I just wish I didn't feel like an outsider in my own community. I wish I didn't have to start a whole project to make space for myself. I wish I didn't feel obnoxious for talking about being aro every other word because hey, this fandom is apparently 50% aro, and all of the rest of them can shut up about it and enjoy fics like a normal person.

But how can I shut up and enjoy fics like a normal person when no matter what fandom I venture into, it's all romance and I'm not a normal person about romance at all? Some aros fucking love shipping! And I'm not even fucking romance repulsed, so I should have a better tolerance! I can deal with romance! I even like it sometimes, even if truthfully what I probably really like is the sexual and emotional connections between the characters. But it just... I guess I'm tired of tolerating it when it would be nicer if I could either like it or never read it again.

And then my friends say things like "just so you know, this fic might be too romantic for you" and I get annoyed by that, too, because I don't want to be seen as someone who can't tolerate romance like a normal adult, and because I do like a lot of things in romantic fics. They often have really good connection and sexual dynamics and emotional dynamics, even if I can't get behind the sappy stuff and that does taint it for me. I'm not just going to avoid them because then I'm missing a whole lot of good shit and there's not exactly much left when you take it all out. But then I bitch and react badly when stuff is romantic. Because apparently I can't just be fucking happy.

I don't know. We live in an alloromantic world. And I had been doing a fantastic job of really enjoying life because I just wasn't noticing that. But now I do see it. And I can't unsee it. And I wish I could. And I've been trying to vent to people, and they're nice... But I just get the feeling that none of them really feel the way I do, even when they're aro or arospec too. So I guess I decided maybe I should try shouting into tumblr instead.

And I know this post is going to bite me in the ass really hard when the people I'm ranting about read it, and I should just talk to them like an adult, but I just can't ever see those conversations ending in any way that I'm satisfied with. They end with me just having to say that I'm an asshole for being insulted by the fact that they won't write what I'd like to see. So instead I'm doing this and hoping they don't click read more. Stop being my friend for it. I don't blame you.

[thegeminisage]

Why do you tag aro posts with asexuality? I don't want to seem rude but Aros deal with a lot of erasure already from alloromantic aces :/

hi anon

asexuality/aromanticism as we know it rn is still a really new deal. back when i began blogging about all this (and even longer ago when i first began learning about asexuality) “aromantic” wasn’t a thing - or if it was, it wasn’t a thing i knew about. for a long time, the split attraction model wasn’t like a Big Deal to the ace community - you had your aces who didn’t like romance (and they were “all the way” ace) and your aces who did (and they were in the gray area lumped in with demisexual people, and gray aces were also not a thing people were really into? ironically we got called fakers and broken and the like, gatekeeping on AVEN was really ugly back then). that is totally different to how we do it now! which i think is good! the way we do it now is better probably! stuff changes!

but. i’ve had this blog for 8 or 9 years. i think i opened it up in 2010. the ace flag itself is only officially like 8? i think? years old. like just impress upon you how NEW stuff is and how OLD i am and how i was existing being my beautiful asexual self on tumblr before we even had a FLAG

so yeah, in my mind, aro & ace were just two variations of the same thing. i IDed primarily as asexual (and still do) and that’s how people referred to aspec folks as a whole so that’s the tag i used

changing tags on this hellsite is impossible. there’s a couple of extensions and websites that will give it a try BUT i have had very little luck with them when it came to tags with lots of posts and tags that are common words. one time i tried to replace my tag for a single word - i don’t remember what it was - and every time that word appeared in any tag whether it was with words or not it got replaced with the entire long phrase, which was a NIGHTMARE to clean up manually. another time i tried to change my personal tag, but the site kept running out of steam before it got to the end. it’s a big blog. something like 97k posts. i think my asexuality tag is like 50 or 60 pages long. i’m sure as fuck not changing those manually, and i’m too leery of automated tag changers not working and forcing me to clean up messes to do it in an automated way, so i’m stuck with this one if i want everything in one place ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

fwiw, i would love for my tag to be “aro & ace” or something like that. on posts with a lot of aro content i try to say in my tags “sorry thats my default tag it would be aro & ace if this site didn’t suck” but uh sometimes typing a disclaimer on every single post gets exhausting and so then i Dont! sorry. i am only one mortal imperfect human being who gets tired of typing shit sometimes

[hua-mo-jin-is-a-cutie]

Okay so while I'm thinkin about TOH I want to talk about something that's been bugging me for a while now. And like I just want to preface this by saying this is my opinion and your opinion can be different this really isn't super deep. 

 TOH SPOILERS 

 so.

 Huntllow

             Hunter x Willow has kinda blown up into a big thing recently and like... I dunno. I don't mind it. I don't think it's bad or anything, in fact it's kind of sweet in it's own way. I'm not one to really care about what other people ship, I'm not even mad about things like fucking Lunter (which I don’t like, but I don’t think it’s as bad as people make it out to be. It’s not lesbian erasure to ship a bisexual girl with a boy just because she’s in a commited relationship with a girl in canon. I’m happy to be getting the wlw representation, but luz would be no less queer for liking a boy and besides... it’s a ship... not canon. As long as people shipping Lunter aren’t being blatantly homophobic I see no problem with it existing.)

               I just... okay so Hunter is really not in a position to be in a romantic relationship with the current state of canon. Obviously you can ship Hunter with people, again I do not care, but I just can't really do that. Not with how he is now and what he's been through. Like Hunter isn't even in a healthy enough place to ask for help from people, he doesn't think he really has friends. When he ran from the coven, everyone in the fandom thought he was either going to end up at Willow's place or run into Darius, but that isn't what happened.  And really? We should have seen that coming. If he'd run into Darius the kid would've spiraled even further into panic because for all he knows Darius works for Belos. He wouldn't want to burden Willow, he CANNOT fathom asking for help from anyone.  

             So what does he do instead? He tries to find a safe place in secret. He knows he'll be somewhat safe at Hexide, but he also doesn't tell anyone he's there. He breaks in in secret and stays hidden. He can't trust anyone. A lot of people have been posting things like "Huntllow canon!!" while presenting screenshots of him blushing around her. I would like to take a moment to remind you that Hunter does not know what being loved and respected feels like.  He also shares a common trauma with Willow, they've both been called the same in universe slur. He relates to Willow and respects her a lot. I'm not sure if he considers Willow a friend yet, but if not her certainly wants to. Whether or not he has a romantic crush, I doubt it would be obvious to him if he did. Hunter likely has trouble understanding any of his feelings for the new and kind people in his life. He's never had people like that before, people who care about him truly.  And sure, he only seems to blush around Willow, maybe he does like her or think she's pretty or cool or whatever, but even still, getting into a romantic relationship right now would be a really bad idea considering he is only just now learning to trust people. If he can't even maintain friendships, a romantic relationship would be exceedingly taxing for him. What Hunter really needs is a solid group of friends to learn how to trust before he gets into anything romantic. 

 Again, if you like Huntllow, more power to you. I'm not trying to put anyone down and invalidate their feelings about a ship, I just wanted to share my 2 cents. My opinion is not the end all be all and I'm sure I'm projecting a bit onto Hunter as well. Had to hold myself back from bringing up the complexities of being under the  ACE/ARO umbrella and how it could also relate to Hunters relationships because at that point it really truly is just my own headcanons and projections. Huntllow is fine, I just personally would rather see Hunter get a healthy support system FIRST.

[dr-fumbles-mcstupid]

Happy pride month everyone! A friendly reminder that I identify as asexual aromantic. There is a lot of bullshit discourse in the Lgbtqia community about a lot of things. One of those things is that Aro & Ace people don't belong, they aren't discriminated against. Or they aren't "actually queer."

Fun fact #1. I first heard the term asexual as a 22 year old. I found it through a fanfic online, it was so underrepresented I didn't know it was a thing. No form of published media had ever told me about it, no person I knew had ever used the word. To this day

in popular media, off the top of my head I can think of 3 asexual characters, only one of which identifies as aromantic. Jughead from Archie comics (but not in Riverdale, because aro/ace isn't part of LGBTQ+ so it isn't erasure right?), Todd from BoJack Horseman, and apparently there was an ace character in the SYFY channel series lost girl.

Fun fact #2, I went on a few dates with a guy at the age of 20, it didn't go any further. He apparently told people I slept with him. I found out my older sister was close friends with a mutual friend of his, and when Briana (my sister) spoke up to that friend and said that was 100% a lie because she knew I did not (we didn't talk about a lot of sex things, but I think she had an inkling about me being ace even then), her close friend said that I had obviously lied to mysister becuase no one got to the age of 20 without having sex.

Fun fact #3, our whole society is really based upon the ideas of cohabitation and romance in particular. Almost all forms of media portray romance, and it often shows that a person isn't happy, or that their life hasn't really started until they find their perfect romantic partner. Leaving out how toxic that is to people romantically inclined (the need to constantly be with a partner, making it seem like you need to find 'the one', bad portrayals of what a relationship should actually be) it is incredibly disheartening to an aro person, and it makes it much much harder for non aro people to relate to, or even comprehend aro people.

Fun fact # 3b, a number of years ago a close friend of mine started a new relationship and had been in the "puppy love" phase where They dropped everyone but their Significant other for almost 7 month. I asked Facebook what the normal timeline for 'puppy love' or what they thought it should be was. Almost 99% of people said that when they met their significant other, or when they got married they dropped Almost all of their non familial aquentences including friends. People argued that this was normal and expected. They believe that once they found their romantic love that no other relationships were needed

Fun fact #4, I don't identify as sex repulsed, talking about sex or even engaging in sex with others, doesn't disgust or trigger me. Despite this people often treat me as ignorant of sex, and sexual urges, Sex Ed in general, and even if I was, like so what? Where this gets worse, is there is a perception that I am inoocent, or infantile becuase I haven't had the experience of sex, or have no desire to. This goes to relationships as well. I did have one serious relationship, and I dated people casually as well. Even if I didn't I am a smart person, romantic relationships are built on the foundation of compatability, honest open conversation, and friendship. I know this Even though I don't want a romantic partner. 😱 I still like movies and books with romance in them!!! 😱 I understand the concept of romance!!! 😱 You don't have to treat me like an idiot, or think I can't have advice for you/somone who is in a relationship!

Fun fact #5, I experience multiple micro aggressions every day, even from friends and family members. Every time I go to a new therapist I will mention being asexual, and their response will be "well that is probably because of your medication." I know some medications can erase your libido, but I have been on over 20 different medications over a period of 15 years. I still have a libido (sexual desire does not = sexual attraction, look up sex favorable and sex repulsed asexuals). I will explain this to them and yet every therapist I have ever had has still tried to persuade me that I was wrong about this.

People in my life will make jokes about me going on dates or meeting the mother of a friend becuase you know, I'm obvs gonna fall in love! People can't be friends, and "I don't think aromanticism is a thing." On the other side of the spectrum I have a few friends who say they support me, but then whenever I say "Chris Hemsworth is so attractive" or "She-Hulk is Bae, 10/10" , they automatically use it as ammo for discourse on why "maybe you are confused?". Being able to tell that someone is aesthitcally pleasing does not = sexual attraction. Even aro and ace people talk in this manner a lot becuase of fandom and online discourse, and how people Interact in general.

And finally, if I was wrong and I am just confused and not "really aromantic or asexual becuase it is just a mental or physical disease" (it's not) how does this hurt me or you? I am happy without sex or a romantic partner, I would be fine living the rest of my life without it, friends are enough! (although a queer platonic partner would be 👌👌👌). Even if I was misinformed and misguided (I am not), It isn't hurting anyone.

TLDR, #Aromantic and #Asexual people are #LGBTQIA, we are discriminated against, and it is a valid identity. The more you know #Pride2019

[magicofthepen]

Tell us about Making Out Is Not a Healthy Coping Mechanism and Aro Solidarity: That Platonic Fake Married Fic, please?

Send me a WIP doc title (list here) and I’ll talk about it!

I love that you asked about these two because they’re both Romana and Narvin fics, but quite different takes on their relationship!

The quick explanations (I’m gonna put the long ramble-y ones under a cut):

Making Out Is Not a Healthy Coping Mechanism: Narvin/Romana, post-Devil You Know. Stressed, grieving Time Lords are trying to run the CIA in the middle of a war, there are the added factors of Narvin’s exhausted anger and Romana’s exhausted guilt around Leela’s mission, everyone is very bad at talking about anything. They end up kissing rather by accident, and it’s very emotionally fraught and no one wants to think about or discuss the implications. 

Aro Solidarity: That Platonic Fake Married Fic: Narvin & Romana, set shortly after Enemy Lines, a combo of "accidentally getting stuck in a fake married situation apparently counts as workplace bonding?” “I don’t typically headcanon Romana as aro but I could totally see it and I really want to write about it!” and “I don’t typically headcanon Narvin as aro but I could totally see it and I really want to write about it!”

The (very) long ramble-y versions: 

Making Out Is Not a Healthy Coping Mechanism

I love exploring time gaps in Romana and Narvin’s relationship (that nine month gap between Forever and Emancipation where they’re on their own as President and Chancellor! that Enemy Lines to Time War gap where they clearly build a really great partnership in the CIA together!), but one of the gaps I haven’t written a fic about yet is the time between The Devil You Know and Desperate Measures (I’ve referenced that time frame in my Time War 3 fic, but I haven’t actually Gotten Into It).

Because the ending of The Devil You Know is extremely tense, and we never really see that immediate interpersonal fallout? So I want to write something set in this time frame, when they’re both stressed and terrified for Leela, but they can’t really lean on each other because Narvin’s angry at Romana for pushing for the mission and Romana’s blaming herself for pushing for the mission (“What have I done?”), but they’re both putting up a We Have a Job To Do front and pretending they’re okay at work and.....yeah.

There’s also been a certain degree of unspoken romantic attraction between them for a while (perhaps they haven’t even admitted it to themselves) because navigating their professional and personal relationship is complicated enough as it is without introducing another element. Also they’re both very good at “let’s shove feelings down and not talk about them.” (I have so many takes on Romana and Narvin’s relationship, but during Time War I get such simultaneous “old married couple” and “haven’t actually admitted to feelings” vibes from them, and I want to write about that.) 

So they’re both very isolated and hurting in their own ways and there’s this background unaddressed Thing between them, and eventually everything just comes to a head. And I haven’t actually written this fic yet, I just have notes and keep playing through this scene in my head in different ways, so I don’t know the details about what will happen? Not sure if there’s going to be a proper fight, if they’re actually going to get into the blame question around Leela’s disappearance, not sure how much of that grief they’re actually going to show? 

The bottom line is: they end up crossing paths in Leela’s rooms (where they both occasionally go to have an emotional breakdown), they’re exhausted and every emotional boundary they need to keep up because they work together is crumbling away, and they end up kissing. But it’s not exactly a positive development, more of a “this is easier than talking” sort of thing. Also I haven’t decided what their exact relationships with Leela were (in the context of this fic), but either they were each in a relationship with Leela or they each have feelings for Leela but never admitted it? But regardless, they both Know that the other has feelings for Leela, and so there’s an added dynamic of them both thinking “obviously this means nothing to you because it’s not me you’re interested in, and you’re only doing this because you’re missing her, and so obviously I’m going to pretend it means nothing to me, too.” So it’s just poor communication bad times all around!

I don’t actually know how/if this resolves? I don’t think they’d have a proper conversation at this point in the audios, but I’m not sure if I’m just going to end this fic on “welp that happened” or if there’s going to be some kind of emotional shift/release of tension somehow? (There will probably need to be because their relationship in Desperate Measures and TW2 is quite good overall, so I probably won’t leave things in this tense place?) But again, this fic isn’t written yet, so everything is pretty up in the air. 

Aro Solidarity: That Platonic Fake Married Fic

Arguably, this is more of a concept than an actual wip, but even though I may never actually write it, I do love it dearly? 

I’ve been wanting to write something with aromantic Romana for a while - and this might sound strange coming from me, aka someone who’s written a variety of shippy Romana fic and can very easily interpret her feelings and relationships with other characters as romantic, but I so often have multiple contradictory headcanons for characters that live in different pockets of my brainspace. 

My aro Romana thoughts are mainly fueled by series 4, because whenever marriage/romance comes up around alternate versions of herself, she’s always fairly surprised and baffled and gives the impression that it’s not something she’s ever considered? And in general, she’s kinda awkward and uncomfortable whenever there’s flirting happening (which could just be the circumstances or her personality, but could also be interpreted as her not clicking with romantic gestures). And of course while fandom ships her with many characters in the dw universe, she’s never stated to be romantically interested in anyone (well. I suppose that depends on your thoughts about how canon the Prime computer ads are, but putting that aside.......). Not that there has to be overt evidence for headcanons, but I do think there’s a solid canon-based argument for aro Romana, you know? 

And part of me really likes the interpreting Romana’s friendships as totally platonic because the intense Friendship-as-Love-Story journey is there already, that’s what the audios are giving us! And I don’t really see that kind of centering of deep, spend-the-rest-of-my-life-with-you friendship in media and it’s so good! (Related point (I know I say this a lot, but it bears repeating): I do very much ship the ot3, but am also very much into reading all of the main trio’s relationships as totally platonic – and I never actually want those relationships to be romantic in the audios themselves.) And I’ve had Thoughts for a while about how for Romana the big important line is between professional and personal relationships, and whether the personal relationship is romantic or platonic is probably less significant. So I could see her as someone who either doesn’t experience romantic attraction at all or just doesn’t distinguish between romantic and platonic attraction. What’s important is the distinction between professional relationships and intimate personal relationships – separating out the nature of that personal intimacy isn’t really something she does?

So anyways, I’ve been wanting to write something that explores Romana being aromantic, but for a while, I didn’t really have a vision for what kind of fic I wanted to write? 

Separately, I’ve had the “platonic fake married” idea kicking around in my head for a while. The “post-Enemy Lines” time period is so fascinating to me when it comes to Romana and Narvin’s relationship because somehow they go from “Romana’s just swooped in and taken Narvin’s job that he’s worked hard for his entire life” to the genuinely solid friendship and team dynamic we see in the Time War audios? So I’m fascinated by that journey from things probably being very emotionally fraught and a lot of tension and stepping on each others’ toes to working really well together. And somehow, at some point, my brain went: what if new CIA Coordinator Romana and Deputy Coordinator Narvin who aren’t getting along very well accidentally end up in an off-world situation where they have to pretend to be married? (My brain also went: I’m not sure I could handle writing the secondhand embarrassment of this situation, but also I’m very into the idea of a Narvin & Romana platonic fake married fic that ends up functioning as a “how do we save our friendship?” story.)

And then more recently, I realized I also really wanted to write something with aromantic Narvin. There aren’t necessarily specific moments fueling this headcanon (as much as with Romana), but it definitely comes from a similar “I really like interpreting Narvin’s friendships as totally platonic because the intense Friendship-as-Love-Story journey is there already!” place. 

You know that “I have feelings for you” / “The feeling was “friendship” but neither had ever experienced it” quote? Yeah, that pretty accurately captures my thought process when it comes to aro Narvin. He genuinely doesn’t seem to have experienced friendship before Romana and Leela, so it’s very plausible to me that he assumed he was experiencing romantic attraction at some point but nope, he just really loves his friends and is experiencing really intense platonic affection for the first time. (This is also me going ‘I know this is a wildly unpopular opinion, but I’m totally down to interpret Erasure as platonic.’)

Anyways, at some point recently all three things fused together in my brain, and I went: what if new CIA Coordinator Romana and Deputy Coordinator Narvin who aren’t getting along very well end up in a situation where they have to pretend to be married.....and also they’re both aromantic? Writing a fic like this feels like an excellent opportunity to actually sit down and have a think about ‘what are the cultural associations and expectations around romance on Gallifrey?’ (‘what does being aromantic mean by Gallifreyan standards?’) And ‘what are romantic associations and expectations on whatever planet they’re on?’ And the potential bonding experience of two aromantic people trying to navigate those layers of expectation, while also grappling with the interpersonal tension in their friendship and slowly learning to communicate better in the process....this is a very interesting story to me!

No, I have not actually figured out the details of the off-world diplomatic situation/mission they would accidentally end up in that would require this, and thus I probably won’t get around to it for a while. Also this would probably be a longfic and I’m trying to stick to a ‘one big project at a time!’ rule, and my current big project is the post-Time War fic, and then fantasy au has been waiting its turn for so long (and actually has, y’know, plot points). But I simply love this concept, and so I’m keeping the doc in case I maybe figure out a way to keep the fic short, or get a particularly good idea and decide that I really want to write it? (But also – if someone else wants to run with this concept, please do!)

This has been such a long answer to your ask, whoops, but thank you so much for giving me the excuse to ramble on about all of these things!!

[mindareadsoots]

So. Peridot.

sigh, this is gonna be a mess.

So, in case you hadn’t heard, Maya Petersen said on twitter this morning that Peridot is aro/ace according to “Word of St Paul”

My opinion, honestly, is that it’s not really evident in the show so you can headcanon Peridot however you want, and that could be the end of the post right there. Full stop.

As for Lapidot, I don’t see how this post changes anything. Lapis is also adverse to fusion, so accepting that Peridot is aro/ace doesn’t even change their dynamic all that much (although put a pin in that for later, because we’re going to have to come back to that). And anyways, Word of God can not and does not stop people from shipping things.

But much like Peridot’s character development, ending things there would be abrupt and unsatisfying, so we’re going to go deeper than that.

Asexuality and Fusion

The big elephant in the room that I want to get out of the way first is that I don’t have a problem with Peridot being aro/ace. There’s some evidence for it (and some against it, but we’ll get to that later), and overall I like it as a character beat for her. It’s a fairly rare bit of representation, so it’s nice to see.

However, I have a HUGE problem with them tying asexuality to Peridot’s disinterest in fusion.

Fusion has always been much more than an analogue for sex. If it wasn’t, then we’d be talking about how Steven and Connie are too young for fusion, and Steg is incestuous. And we don’t want to go down that road. That’s a dumb road.

Fusion can represent loving (Garnet), platonic (Smoky Quartz), or familial relationships (Steg). It can represent budding relationships (Stevonnie) or alliances of convenience (Bluebird Azerite).

Fusion is a versatile metaphor, but it’s that very versatility that works against it when connecting it to asexuality. Because now you’re basically saying that aro/ace people can’t have any meaningful relationships, and that’s clearly not the message that they want to send with Peridot. This could be cleared up if Peridot’s stance on fusion and what it means for her relationships with others was actually examined in the show, but it hasn’t been.

Word of God vs The Work Itself

So is Peridot a good representation of asexuality within the show itself?

On the whole? Maybe, but at best it’s unclear.

That’s why I can’t say whether or not Peridot discovering her asexuality is a good or satisfying character beat in the show. It’s not in the show at all! If you’re looking for representation, we can do better than this. This show has done better than this.

The only scene you can really point to where Peridot shows an aversion to fusion is in Log Date, when Garnet offers to show Peridot what fusion is like with a firsthand experience. 

This moment later got a callback in one of the children’s books talking about fusion, complete with the alien boxers she wore in that same episode.

The problem is that this scene happens very, VERY early on in Peridot’s character development. Log Date was a flashback episode to before Message Received, so Peridot still considered herself loyal to Homeworld at that point. That whole scene - indeed, that whole episode - was about Peridot experimenting and learning how to be more than just a tool for Homeworld. She didn’t have her meep morps yet. She didn’t have her metal powers yet. 

In fact, after Too Short to Ride came out, I remember seeing speculation that Peridot was afraid that she couldn’t fuse and so she broke off with Garnet out of embarrassment.

More importantly, it would have been wrong for Peridot to fuse right at that moment, regardless of her sexuality. She was still getting to know the Crystal Gems. She didn’t have an established relationship with Garnet or really anybody in the cast at that point, so seeing her fuse then would have been meaningless. The scene very clearly set up fusion as something for Peridot to explore later, once she has found somebody who she is ready to fuse with.

And shortly after that episode, Peridot would meet...

Lapis

Let’s call a spade a spade. The real reason why people are upset about Peridot being labeled ace is because of Lapidot, and I think that’s a perfectly valid reaction. It isn’t ace-phobia or erasure to say, “Word of God tried to sink my ship, and I don’t like it.”

I’m not going to go through all of the moments hinting at a romantic interest between Lapis and Peridot, but, ya know...

They’re there.

And they were clearly put there on purpose, as expressed by storyboarder Jesse Zuke back when they were working on the show. 

In truth, I’m not interested in re-litigating whether or not their relationship actually became a true romance, because it’s irrelevant. Either way, the most important relationship the two of them had was with each other. Peridot being ace doesn’t take way from that, but it does leave Lapis in an awkward spot in one specific way.

As I mentioned at the top of the post, Lapis has displayed an aversion to fusion, which could make her perfectly compatible with an aro/ace Peridot. However, there’s one very important difference. Unlike Peridot, who came into her asexuality from thoughtful introspection (or so we’ve been told) Lapis’s problem with fusion comes from a traumatic experience. She isn’t aromantic by choice, it’s a wound that’s still fresh.

So - and again, this question applies whether you ship Lapidot romantically or not - if Lapis is working through the trauma of a bad fusion experience, but the character she’s closest to doesn’t want to fuse, then where does that leave her?

This comes back to that first big problem with the tweet, which is that this shouldn’t be a problem. There is no reason why Peridot can’t have a platonic fusion with Lapis while being aro/ace, but it’s clearly not going to happen in SUF, and it doesn’t sound like it’s going to happen ever.

There are other candidates, of course. Lapis also has a very close and trusting friendship with Steven, she seems to be getting along well with Bismuth in the limited time we’ve seen them together, and in Why So Blue, she even made a potential new friend in fellow Lapis “Freckles” Lazuli. 

But even so, the most on screen relationship development she’s gotten has been with Peridot, and now that character development is just kind of in limbo.

In Conclusion

I don’t really have a conclusion.

I just wanted to convey that this whole situation is kind of a hot mess.

I really would like to see more aro/ace representation, and if any character in SU was going to get that label, then Peridot would be a good candidate, but this was just a bad way to get there.

It’d be one thing if we actually had an episode about Peridot exploring her asexuality. Then we could actually judge how well it plays out. Now it’s just sort of vaguely unsatisfying and it’s left a lot of people arguing about what they think it means for Peridot and the characters around her.

That’s almost certainly intentional on the part of the writers. The crew has said that they don’t want to lock down any canon ships (besides Garnet, obviously) because they don’t want to ruin headcanons. And the whole point of the episode Little Graduation was that Steven (and by extension, the audience) is not necessarily privy to every character development that happens off-screen, but you can’t say that, and then also put your thumb on the scale with tweets like this.

Honestly, I’m expecting the followup tweet any minute now of, “Don’t harass people for shipping/not shipping Peridot,” because tweeting out character details after the fact is just kicking the hornet’s nest. Maybe we’ll get a graphic novel or something where Peridot outlines what fusion means to her, but until then, let people ship what they want, and be good to each other.

[bananonbinary]

i think ive decided not to give a shit about what people write in fanfic. like obviously i’ve felt that way for a while about like, dark content and shit, but i’ve been thinking about “erasure” and the nature of “transformative works” and. idk. if u wanna write an au where a gay character is bi or a bi character is aro or whatever, as long as you AREN’T trying to say that the actual text never contained the representation it did, i.....well i won’t read it, and i guess i probably still feel its a bit of an odd and maybe somewhat inflammatory choice, but i won’t hate you for it.

i’ve just been thinking a lot about fanfic, and how it’s basically just a very public “hey dude what if this situation?” conversation, so i don’t know if it’s fair to make any hypotheticals off limits full stop. obviously individual fics can and do make awful and bigoted choices, but the mere thought exercise of “What if i changed this one thing about x character, how would that affect the story and world?” doesn’t seem all that inherently bad to me.

[a-spec-community-issues]

Hey, I'm an ace person, and pretty romantic. I've been actively learning more about aros after not understanding at all for ages and just never ever talking about it because it was awkward and I knew nothing. Now, because I think my queerplatonic partner miggght be aro, I want to really know it and be a great ally, even if they aren't. My issue is that I'm not sure what counts as arophobia. I know the really obvious stuff, but like what's the more small and insidious stuff to watch out for?

Arophobia By My Aro Friend!

“a lot of arophobia is subtle

things that at first you night not even bat an eye at. since i dont know specifically what it is the anon already knows, ill just go down a laundry list. another thing to note is that not a whole lot of arophobia is explicit, or even intentional. someone may say something arophobic without even knowing aromanticism exists. im of the opinion that bigotry can be accidental.

an obvious one would be dehumanisation. The obvious "we can still love!" And "love is what makes us human!" Are common examples. but smaller ones like implying life can't be fullfilling without a partner, or that love is inevitable, and to a degree concepts like soulmates can be hurtful to aros. and expecting everyone to want such things is hurtful. the idea that casual sex is bad is also one that hurts aros- most of all non-ace, and especially alloaros (like myself). there seems to be this idea some people have, ive noticed, that romance = consent. which is hurtful not only because sex outside of romance can be consensual, but also cause it implies that those who are romantically involved will always consent, but that's a tangent i dont have time for right now. acknowledging that romance isn't a prerequisite for happiness for everyone, in general, is a good way to be supportive of aros.

a less obvious example of arophobia is erasure.

and this partially ties into one of the things ive mentioned just a bit earlier, but we'll get to that. erasure comes in many forms. obviously there's just,,, ignoring and not listening to aros. but there's a bit more to it than that, and this is a point i find very interesting considering how prevalent it is in aspec communities. It sounds simple enough to say "acknowledging that aromanticism and asexuality are different is a good thing", but that means a lot of things. it means not using asexual as an umbrella term for the whole aspec community. it means not thinking of aromanticism as a subdivision of asexuality. it means genuinely considering it as its own standalone identity that can exist apart and separately from asexuality. it means not putting content exclusively about asexuality in aromantic tags, and it means not tagging content exclusively about aromanticism with ace tags. acknowledging that they are not one and the same. however this also means avoiding misplaced division. it means acknowledging that we share terminology. it means not writing "arophobia/aphobia" or "arospec/aspec", which excludes us from our own communities. cause aphobia means both arophobia and acephobia, and aspec means both arospec and acespec. you can see how writing aromanticism separatlye from the rest of the aspec community alienates us. acknowledging that aromanticism and asexuality are separate is good

and this partially ties into one of the things ive mentioned just a bit earlier, but we'll get to that. erasure comes in many forms. obviously there's just,,, ignoring and not listening to aros. but there's a bit more to it than that, and this is a point i find very interesting considering how prevalent it is in aspec communities. It sounds simple enough to say "acknowledging that aromanticism and asexuality are different is a good thing", but that means a lot of things. it means not using asexual as an umbrella term for the whole aspec community. it means not thinking of aromanticism as a subdivision of asexuality. it means genuinely considering it as its own standalone identity that can exist apart and separately from asexuality. it means not putting content exclusively about asexuality in aromantic tags, and it means not tagging content exclusively about aromanticism with ace tags. acknowledging that they are not one and the same. however this also means avoiding misplaced division. it means acknowledging that we share terminology. it means not writing "arophobia/aphobia" or "arospec/aspec", which excludes us from our own communities. cause aphobia means both arophobia and acephobia, and aspec means both arospec and acespec. you can see how writing aromanticism separatlye from the rest of the aspec community alienates us. acknowledging that aromanticism and asexuality are separate is good.”

To add onto this, not everything about soulmates- like how soulmates can be friends or the idea that soulmates aren’t just romantic are nice- and some Aros like it. Sometimes Aros are so romance-repulsed and wouldn’t consider QPRs dating and others call it dating. Viewing QPRs as Romantic can make an aro uncomfortable or comparing it to romance.

And shitty formatting is Tumblrs issue, but arophobia from the Ace-Spec community is often as my friend said, Erasure. And I spent like three days wondering how to rewrite this and decided I wouldn’t. This works out for it.

If anyone has anything to add on, reblog the post.

- Mod D

(This ask is old, figured it was necessary to post though.)

[saltyaro]

topsydead a réagi à votre billet “Arophobia and the ace community: a few bullet points”

I'm alloace. I haven't seen this behavior in other alloaces but it is concerning and I accept the call to action. It's clear that people don't understand the SAM and don't acknowledge aros. What can I do to help?

You probably don’t realize you see it because you’re not the...target? of arophobia, but I would be very surprised if you’ve actually never encountered it! Maybe you’re really lucky.

I’m glad you’re willing to challenge this habit, but I’m afraid I won’t be able to give you concrete advice. I’ll try though.

From my point of view, because ace people are oppressed under our society’s assumption that everyone feels sexual attraction, and are often seen as subhuman because of that, there’s this kinda desperate desire to be seen as still valuable “despite” the lack of sexual attraction. As a result, alloaces kinda rely on their romantic attraction to gain “approval” from other people and society. That’s because romance is seen as the most important thing in people’s lives, so, from an ace’s point of view, it makes sense to...double efforts, to “make up” for the lack of sexual attraction? I think it’s important to first realize “why” amatonormativity and arophobia are so rampant within alloace’s communities. Of course, that it’s something understandable, doesn’t mean it should stay that way. That’s my hypothesis on the matter: not necessarily that the alloaces’ arophobia is stronger than in the general population but rather, that the emphasis on romance and amatonormativity is pushed more obviously. If that makes sense. So, the arophobia is extremely visibly and harmful to us (especially because of our shared spaces).

So yeah that’s the way I do things, I try to understand the systems behind things. This is the first step, now what to do?

I’d say, try to train yourself to recognize the assumptions of romance. Try to do a parallel with the sexual assumptions, the systems are very similar. Not going to lie, this is gonna be difficult, because amatonormativity is very strongly ingrained in us, to the point where we perpetuate it without ill intent. It’s pretty sneaky. For an example, you can take the sentences like “we can still love!” as part of this shit. The concept of soulmates, is another instance (yes, even when people try to argue soulmates can be platonic, doesn’t change anything). Or, the constant invisibilization of aroaces/using them as tokens. Everyone’s different, but as a general way of thinking, it’s pretty disrespectful to assume aroaces prioritize their ace identity and will relate to alloace posts. Idk, I’m not ace (i used to identify as aroace though) so it may not be my place, but back when I was in the ace community, everything just seemed so...focused on being in a romantic relationship while ace. It’s not bad to have these resources, they’re needed, but if your blog/activism focuses on that, then it’s not “ace activism” but “alloace activism”. Nothing wrong with that, just, don’t pretend any ace can relate. Aroaces can’t, and I’m sure a lot of non-Sam aces can’t either. Basically, does the post (or anything of the sort) assume “ace” means “alloace”? If yes, then it’s alienating. 

Those behaviours are also harmful to non-ace aros, of course. Because we’re sibling-communities, and (allo?)aces have more visibility than us. If someone places romance over any other kind of relationship, this is amatonormative. Beware of that, don’t ignore it. Obviously no one can be on edge 24/24 but it would be nice to have some alloaces challenge those thoughts!

Basically, before you can do anything, I think it would be useful to read through some aro blogs! There’s mine of course, but I’m a non-sam aro so it could be cool to also read from aroaces and alloaros. We all have different experiences with the ace community. 

Challenging those thoughts takes a lot of work. Stop putting romance on a pedestal, challenge any relationship hierarchy that pretends to be universal - it’s fine if it’s personal I guess but not if it’s supposed to be the norm - and challenge the very idea that what makes us humans is love. Regardless of the type of love I’d say. 

As another example, when you have an ace character in some kind of media with no explicit romanticism...don’t assume they’re alloace. If you know the content the character it’s from, read critically. Maybe there’s no answer but there often is. I’m thinking Jughead, who’s either non-sam ace or aroace, but without romantic feelings anyway. When shitterdale straightwashed him a lot of people were like “he can still be ace! We can still love!” when...yeah, but he’s supposed to be aro to. The “ace” part wasn’t what we were worried about. Same thing happened with (I think, don’t take my word on that) Raphael from Sh/adow hunte/rs, and again, the alloace community rejoincing for the ace rep. How shitty is it to rejoice over the erasure of an aro character? This second example wasn’t great rep from the start apparently, but yeah. Still an asshole move. I also think it’s important to be critical of how all ace rep either is, or is washed to be, alloace rep. Alloace rep is cool and important, but not at the expense of aroaces. Also, I think it’s worth mentioning that aro characters aren’t made to be alloaros so there’s definitely a double standard. Bo/jack for an example, “became” alloace when a lot of aroaces related to him at first. That’s what he was coded as but the ace community pushed against it and the creator decided to make him allo (probably in good faith!). 

So yeah, maybe try to react when alloaces get angry when people draw pride art and. Draw the ace flag as a single person, because again “ace” doesn’t mean “alloace”. The “ace” community is shared by allo aces, non-sam aces, and aroaces. 

Please be aware if you see di/s/k h/orse things, when ex/clusio/nism is discussed, of the aromantic erasure that always happens. Even when the ex/cl/u mentions aros, the inc/lu’s answer systematically ignores that part. There was this survey last year, on this topic, and it was shown that people who include aces do not necessarily include aros. Of course, I didn’t see any alloace mention that, even though they showed the results to be all “see everyone/most people think(s) we belong!”. Without mentioning that very important and very telling aspect. I would have loved it if an alloace had mentioned it, and had tried to open a discussion about it! But I didn’t see it happen. I know this is a very specific example, but basically, I think what would be nice, would be for some alloaces to stick for us aros whenever something like that happens. I’m not saying to actively look for such things, but if you follow ace blogs, you’re going to see it happen. 

Oh and also, I don’t know what’s your stance on this, so I’m going to write it just in case but. “Aspec” means aro + ace. It comprehends everyone: non-sam aro, non-sam aces, aroaces, allo aros, and allo aces. It’s not the same as “acespec”! It’s really erasing us aros whenever someone uses “aspec” to mean “acespec”, it’s alienating us from our own community. There’s the aro community, the ace community for our specific, different needs, but the aspec community is supposed to be our shared community so. Definitely “call out” (by that I mean comment on) people who do that! They may not have bad intents but the result is still here, and it’s just. Spreading everyday, and pushing aros further under the bus.

So yeah all it boils down to is, try and comment/reblog posts that antagonize us? Within the limits of your energy and mental health of course. And maybe try to spread knowledge about what amatonormativity is (I have a tag but you can also google it, there’s an easy to find definition), why it’s harmful, and how it operated, within the ace community. As an alloace, maybe you’ll get more attention than aros (whether we’re also ace or not, people don’t listen to us). I personally think it would benefit everyone (including alloaces) to get rid of amatonormativity but for now, pointing it out - whether for yourself or in a more public manner - should be a good beginning. 

I...hope this answers your question? 

[fandomshatelgbtqpeople]

There’s a post that’s been bothering me for literally four years. It managed to somehow be both homophobic and transphobic and the (very popular) social justice blogger who made it never got any serious blowback. I’m going to post a screencap of it here, but I won’t say who it’s from because it was four years ago. What I will say is that as far as I know, they have never addressed it or apologized despite having been asked more than once, never did anything about all the people in the notes using it as a reason to be homophobic, and that they are still a pretty popular, well regarded blog.

This post was made in response to part of an old conversation that got dragged up. It was one of those things that’s like, maybe this was okay, maybe it wasn’t, depending on the context, which I’ve never been able to find. The person who originally pulled it up was a transphobe who was talking about “biological sex,” so I don’t trust their judgment or intentions, but a broken clock is right twice a day, so it’s possible that something actually homophobic was said. I haven’t posted it here because that would just be taking it out of context again and as OP has pointed out, that isn’t helpful. Here’s the part of their response that deals with monosexuals and making assumptions about people’s gender. The rest of the post talked about why taking the comment out of context didn’t accurately represent their feelings and how the conversation had also been about biphobia and bi erasure, and that’s all fine.

It starts out fine (making assumptions about someone’s gender and anatomy based on their appearance is cissexist and we should all try not to do it), but it turns into “and I don’t do that because I’m bisexual.” Which like, you’re a cis woman so yes you fucking do. I’m nonbinary and I still do it sometimes. And then there’s that line at the end about how gay and straight people’s orientations are based on assumptions about people’s gender and anatomy. 

I’ll note that they were talking about monosexuals, which includes lesbians, gay men, and all straight people and was also read like it was directed at people who were doing it out of ignorance rather than malice, so this post was not specifically about terfs and isn’t really applicable to them at all because they know exactly what they’re doing. Terfs were also considered just as bad in 2015 as they are now, so if that comment had been about terfs, they could have said that and it would have gotten them off the hook with the people who were calling them out in good faith.

They then wrote out a longer explanation about what their current feelings were on the subject. This is broken up into two images just because it was too long to screencap at once. I haven’t removed anything. The first post and second reblog are the OP:

They later edited the post twice--once to specify that they were only talking about cis monosexuals and once to add “and sometimes also bi and pan people do this too,” which did little to address the fact that this post was literally claiming that being gay or straight was inherently problematic and that bi and pan people were automatically less transphobic by virtue of their sexual orientation and just ended up implying that it’s only okay to be gay if you’re trans (because I guess that means you’re woke enough to stop yourself from being attracted to people on sight?). Here’s 

Four years ago, I wasn’t really able to articulate a response that cut to the root of why this post bothered me so much more than any other homophobic or transphobic bullshit and to navigate around the fact that there are parts of it that I genuinely agree with (most of the stuff about anatomy), but I’m older and more practiced now, so here we go.

This post is based on a number of incorrect assumptions:

That gay people can’t find someone they’re not attracted to aesthetically pleasing to look at

That gay people are, across the board, only attracted to certain genitalia and base their sexual orientations off that

That gay people’s thoughts immediately jump to sex the first time they’re attracted to someone

That the only way to be bi is to be attracted to every gender

That gay people base their assumptions about people’s gender on whether they’re attracted to them

That still being willing to have sex with someone after finding out you were wrong about their gender makes your assumption less transphobic

They were not willing to listen to any of the gay people in their notes trying to explain to them that this isn’t actually how being gay works at all or any of the bi, pan, or trans people who called them out for being way out of their lane. The only person they responded to at all was a trans lesbian who pointed out that they hadn’t ever specified that they were only talking about cis gay people (that person also pointed out several ways in which the post was homophobic, none of which were addressed beyond “that’s not what I meant”). 

Basically, the thesis statement here is, “Gay people’s attraction is based solely around sex and genitals and none of them are attracted to trans people, but bi and pan people are attracted to everyone so we don’t make as many assumptions about people’s gender, and when we do it’s less problematic.” Which is obviously very false for multiple reasons. 

I’m going to go through all of these assumptions and talk about the underlying thought processes underpinning them and how they’re even more insidious than they seem on the surface. 

1. Gay people can’t find someone they’re not attracted to aesthetically pleasing to look at

This is actually one of the more benign assumptions and what it really comes down to is not understanding that thinking, “That person is hot” isn’t the same thing as thinking, “I would be interested in pursuing a sexual relationship with that person” (which also isn’t necessarily the same thing as thinking “I would be interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with that person” but this post completely ignores that romance might be part of being gay--we’ll get to that later). It’s really just a fundamental misunderstanding about what sexual attraction is and how it works. 

2. Gay people are, across the board, only attracted to certain genitalia 

The obvious thought process underlying this attitude is that you have to be attracted to women in some capacity to want to date and trans man and vice versa for trans women. There are two possible assumptions that could be causing this. The first is that all gay people (and all straight people) are transphobic and only care about genitalia. The second is that a trans man who hasn’t had bottom surgery isn’t really enough of a man for someone who’s only attracted to men to want to have sex with him, and the same for trans women. You’re either being homophobic or transphobic here. 

In fact, what it really reveals about OP is that, regardless of their self-righteousness on this topic, they are the one equating being attracted to women with being attracted to vaginas and being attracted to men with being attracted to penises. That’s not to say that there isn’t a transphobia problem in gay communities, but the implication here is that these are the objective definitions of being a lesbian and a gay man respectively. There are definitely cis lesbians who date trans women and cis gay men who date trans men. 

OP assigned a transphobic, incorrect definition to gay people and then based a lot of their argument on that. We see this a lot in ace discourse (”it means not wanting to fuck”) and in bi vs pan discourse (”it excludes nonbinary people”). It would be a problem if it was true, but it’s not, and while there are people who ascribe to that definition, those people wrong. There are lots cissexist bi and pan people who equate gender and genitalia until told otherwise, and it’s not less transphobic when they do it. It’s a transphobia problem, not a being gay problem.

3. Gay people’s thoughts immediately jump to sex as soon as they’re attracted to someone

So this is just blatant sexualization of gay people, and it really explains a lot of about the first two assumptions. Being gay is all about sex, so if you’re gay, you can’t possibly think someone is hot without immediately thinking about what they look like naked and how you want to have sex with them. And of course because being gay is all about what kind of sex you want to have, your attraction must be defined by the genitalia of your partners. 

It should go without saying that this is really homophobic. Even for gay aros, this isn’t how it works. I guess I can understand how if you’re equally attracted to everyone, you might not understand how gender plays a roll in attraction outside of thinking about sex, but it does, and that you don’t get it doesn’t excuse this. It just means you shouldn’t have been talking about it.

4. The only way to be bi is to be attracted to every gender

 There are a couple of assumptions that could be underlying this. The possibility that’s most charitable to OP is that they are attracted to every gender and assume that that’s the only way to be bi. This is the only option that avoids exorsexism, but it is biphobic. 

The second possibility is an assumption that nonbinary people don’t exist. Therefore, the only way to be bi is to be attracted to both men and women. This is extremely exorsexist for obvious reasons. 

The third is a little more complicated, but it’s basically an assumption that being attracted to nonbinary people doesn’t, on it’s own, make someone bi. So, a person acknowledges that nonbinary people exist but basically thinks that either, because nonbinary people span so many identities, it’s impossible to be attracted to them if you’re not attracted to everyone. So a bi woman who’s attracted to nonbinary people and women shouldn’t exist because some nonbinary people identify so close to being a man that you couldn’t be attracted to them if you weren’t attracted to men. This is where the fetishization argument that a lot of exlusionists use comes from (I’m not saying that OP is an exclusionist, this is just the underlying ideology they use), and it ignore the fact that identifying as being attracted to women and nonbinary people doesn’t mean you’re attracted to ALL women and nonbinary people. It just means you can be attracted to women and nonbinary people.

Another possible mindset underlying that assumption is that if you aren’t attracted to everyone, the nonbinary people you’re attracted to must be so close as to be indistinguishable from whatever binary gender you’re attracted to, and therefore don’t count as being a different gender. That mindset stems from not thinking aboit nonbinary genders as being as legitimate or meaningful as binary genders and from seeing nonbinary people as basically whatever binary gender you think they’re closest to (”If you’re a bi woman who is attracted to men and nonbinary people, you’re really straight because your nonbinary partner looks like/acts like/is basically a man”). This is again exorsexist for reasons that should be obvious. 

5. Gay people base their assumptions about people’s gender on whether they’re attracted to them

This is the assumption that gay people go: 

I’m attracted to this person -> They must be a man/woman

rather than

I think this person is a man/woman -> I’m attracted to them

This frames gay people’s attraction as the reason the assumption about someone else’s gender is being made, and not the fact that we were all raised in a cissexist society. It’s also lets cis bi and pan people completely off the hook cissexism. If gay people’s assumptions about other people’s gender is caused by or is somehow made worse being attracted to them, then bi and pan people should be basically immune because they’re attracted to everyone (according to OP).

The mindset underlying this assumption is that there are people that you are innately attracted to and gay people are just attempting to shape their sexual orientation around their best guess at who those people are. Therefore, everyone is... I don’t know, varying degrees of bi I guess?... and gay people (and straight people) are just the transphobes who assume they know what everyone’s gender is, while bi and pan people are enlightened enough to realize they don’t. OP claimed in the notes that they weren’t saying monosexual orientations don’t exist, but if the point your making is that monosexual orientations are based solely around an assumption that’s probably wrong, then that is what you’re saying. And they definitely didn’t correct the first reblogger, who was unequivocally saying that.

It completely ignores the probability that a person’s attraction would disappear after finding out the person’s gender was actually not compatible with their sexual orientation, or the possibility that a gay person might know someone at least well enough to have some idea of what their gender is before becoming sexual attracted to them (because, as we’ve covered, just thinking someone is hot isn’t the same as attraction, and many gay people aren’t fantasizing about sex with complete strangers). Unless we’re talking about a closeted trans person, you usually don’t have to know someone that well to know what their gender is.

Shocker: most assumptions about people’s gender are made because they “look like” one of the binary genders, have certain secondary sex characteristics, have a traditionally masculine or feminine name, use he/him or she/her pronouns, or have a certain gender marker on their driver’s license. These are all things that bi and pan people are equally susceptible to. 

6. Still being willing to have sex with someone after finding out you were wrong about their gender makes your assumption less transphobic

It super doesn’t. You still made the assumption. Framing it this way implies that transphobia is all about whether you would be willing to have sex with a trans person. I shouldn’t need to explain why that’s bad.

In conclusion

I want to mention that OP clarified that they weren’t try to say that everyone is bi in a reblog, but if that’s genuinely true then... I honestly don’t know how this post made sense to them. The point is either “people only think they’re gay or straight because they’re making assumptions about other people’s genders” OR “gay people want to have sex with strangers and that’s problematic (but it’s fine if a bi or pan person does it).” Which is a great example of someone setting a standard that requires huge changes from others but none from them and then getting self-righteous because other people don’t meet it (surprise surprise, the post I was referencing when I brought this up yesterday was from the same OP). 

Anyway, regardless of which is true, it’s wrong. This post is homophobic, transphobic, and also erases a lot of bi experiences, and I still can’t believe that so many people just let this go unchecked when it happened.

mod k

Note: I better not catch a single one of you using this post as an excuse to be biphobic. 

[soacethetic]

Hi I just wanted some clarification but I’m a trans bi ace and I don’t see how cishet ace/aros should belong in the lgbt community? Like there isn’t any common ground and I’ve had cishet aces/aros that would interrupt me when telling me they are getting grossed out when I would gush about my same gender crushes or when I talk about trans issues. It made me feel more alienated than feeling apart of something. & the allo privilege seems really homophobic when comparing a lgbt with a cishet acearo

Hey Nonny! I’m gonna assume this is genuine and answer accordingly. But for anyone with similar discourse questions, looking through my blog or pm-ing me would probs be easier. Bc this will be long.

The argument for inclusion really doesn’t centre on cishets of any kind - it’s whether asexuality and aromanticism, on it’s own merits, should be included. The argument for that is that the lgbt+ community is for non-straight orientations (of which aspec IDs are) that are marginalised under cisheterosexism (of which aspec IDs are. We face high rates of sexual harrasment, familial rejection and mental illness that are comparable to bi people, and well above the Straights. We also face pathologisation, dehumanisation, corrective assault and bad media rep/erasure. Trans aces are more likely to face rejection by doctors than non-ace trans people. Life satisfaction is comparable to other lgbt people, and lower than the Straights. This is all not accounting for additional orientations — just aspec identities).

Obviously the exclus argument is that aspec identities aren’t discriminated against ~enough~ (which seems a cruel argument, given we are discriminated against. nevermind it also defines our community by suffering) or that the community is for sga and trans people only (this is something that started on tumblr and changes depending on who’s arguing - truscum say sga and dysphoric, for example. transphobes say just sga. it’s a gross simplification that ignores inclusive lgbt orgs, nonbinary orientations, queer history and non-US countries).

As for your other points, I’m seriously sorry that the cishet aces/aros you know are so shitty, but ultimately shitty individuals should never be taken as representative of an entire minority group. Keeping bigots away should be priority in any group, and it’s good to remember that cishet aces/aros would only be welcome in ace/aro specific groups or events welcome to even CishetTM Allies. They won’t be entering trans or gay specific spaces anymore than cis people would be entering trans specific spaces.

One last thing, ‘allo privilege’ is a term that means nothing. It’s not a cohesive oppression/privilege dynamic as it only applies to cishets, not lgbt people. ‘Allosexual/romantic’ should only be used as a synonym for ‘non-ace/aro,’ not as some kind of privilege indicator -in that (incorrect) context it would, as u said, be homophobic.

Obviously u don’t have to like or associate with cishet aces/aros. U don’t have to be a part of the ace/aro community if you’d rather not. But exclusionary rhetoric is at best, pointless, and at worst, damaging to not only the minority group being targeted, but other groups that could be ‘mistaken’ for the enemy (like with pan, nonbinary, nondysphoric, queer, sometimes even bi people). So in my opinion, keeping the option for aces/aros open is simply more beneficial than not.