#but amity and hunter have so much in common as well

[ferretwhomst]

thinking so hard abt how belos and odalia played similar roles in hunter and amity's lives

they're pathetic excuses for parental figures, bringing up children and expecting them to live up to their own personal "blueprints" for them, stripping them of their autonomy in different ways.

in hunter's case, he's forced to be belos' idealized version of caleb without even knowing it. the golden guard's uniform has stayed mostly the same through time, which shows us that belos doesn't see them as individuals who deserve to be recognized as such, moreso as expendable objects. this one betrayed me? this one failed the task i assigned? no problem! i'll just kill them and make a new one. plus, hunter unknowingly faces additional pressure due to the fact that he looks more like caleb than the other grimwalkers.

in amity's case, odalia is obviously trying to turn her into a mini-version of herself. she takes away mostly everything that makes amity similar to her dad- she forces her to dye her hair the same mint green color, she puts more pressure on amity to perform well than the twins (which leads her to grow resentful towards them, which in turn allows for odalia to control them more easily. divide and rule and all that) and don't even get me started on how deeply invasive that whole amulet business was.

then there's shots like THIS featuring the Shoulder Touch of Manipulation TM

which just... parallel each other so eerily. i can't stop thinking abt it. both belos and odalia are behaving as if they're acting in hunter and amity's best interests when really they're only using them for their own selfish motives (the whole "i can't let the same happen to you" thing from belos as if he isn't willing to murder hunter the second he begins to deviate from his will, and odalia cutting amity off from all positive outside influences- ie anyone who could empower her, anyone who could make amity believe that she deserves better than how her parents treat her- under the pretence of "protecting" her). i'm eating drywall right now.

[mdhwrites]

Owl House tries to be critical of religious thinking and thought processes but the ending unfortunately supports the notion as well as the writing do you have the same thoughts as well?

It's not the ending that ruins this. The WHOLE SHOW is terrible at this. The reason why is obvious as well: The show is too busy mocking modern society and late stage capitalism for its villains, if it's mocking anything, to have time or room to say anything about dystopians, puritans or religion.

Just to make this point quickly: The first time we EVER hear about the Titan in any sort of context that implies even reverence is the S1 FINALE. It is only first brought up as the reason how Belos came to power: His ability to hear the Titan. Before then, the Titan is maybe used to replace God in common expletives but that's it. It's just the place they live in so supposedly one of TOH's main critiques takes an ENTIRE. SEASON. to show up.

However, it's not just how long it takes for people to start even mentioning it that's the problem. It never gains a foothold. People don't do things for the Titan. They do things for Belos. There's like maybe a half dozen LINES in the entire show that have anything to do with religious allegory besides the fact that witch hunts were religiously motivated. Maybe closer to a dozen because of Hunter's ramblings during Hollow Mind but that is ONE episode for the majority of any talk about this.

And it's not just that she show fails to depict a religion. Allegory exists for a reason. But... What is the faith then? The Coven System is MUCH closer to a stratified class system, or a communist economic system, that it literally ever comes to being a religion. It's basis might be in that but no one treats it that way. It's just a job and what you decide to specialize in.

The wild witches being absent is another part of this that also explains why it's absent. Eda doesn't get bothered by... Anyone? In the entire show? about being a wanted criminal. Covention is the absolute closest the show ever comes to having anyone besides the EC give a shit. In that one, people at least squint at her but despite her suspicious behavior, they don't do more than that. That is actually pretty accurate to how someone in the US might act in the modern day... But not in a dystopia. Especially not a religiously motivated dystopia.

A common factor between religious zealots and dystopias is the CONSTANT PARANOIA. The fear that is put into them of the other. How they are directed to destroy ANYTHING that is against the doctrine. This is why Christianity has had SO MANY SCHISMS because a single question for the faith will cause some people to lose their minds! The witch trials, no matter where they were, were often motivated by fear of demons and empowerment of others and used to keep those who might be shaking things up down, using both genuinely held beliefs and those that could be manipulated to cause the masses to agree that the person had to die. Even from a less extreme perspective, these same ideas are used to discriminate, alienate and attack.

However... That doesn't happen. Just because Eda is nice, to a couple people, an entire mob of loyal citizens is able to be rallied to go against the ONE LAW of the Isles. There is no belief there. There is no indoctrination there. If the Isles actually cared about the Titan, Eda should be fucked. Luz should cast a glyph in front of Amity and TERRIFY her because, as Amity puts it, "I've never seen someone cast it like that."

And the funny thing is, this would have made Luz's character climax statement ACTUALLY WORK. If everyone was terrified of her simply because she chose a different path, had to do things differently and was just inherently different, she could be a great stand in for all the effort so many marginalized people have to put in. All this work just to be understood against held beliefs that don't reflect reality. Held beliefs that only exist to prop up the status quote.

But that would mean making the Isles an inherently hostile place. To make Luz have to work for EVERY. SINGLE. INCH that she gains. And, well, the writers weren't interested in that. They weren't interested in a struggle. Instead, they were interested in the story of a young bi teenager going to a fantasy world and living out her dreams.

So sure, her literally being blessed by God to enact his will against his enemies is AWFUL. It explicitly makes it so that she is actually just Belos but she actually DOES hear the Titan! So you know, just don't believe in false prophets but prophets do exist and you should follow them unquestionably.

However, the problem starts LONG before then. Like almost any problem with TOH honestly.

======+++++======

I have a public Discord for any and all who want to join!

I also have an Amazon page for all of my original works in various forms of character focused romances from cute, teenage romance to erotica series of my past. I have an Ao3 for my fanfiction projects as well if that catches your fancy instead. If you want to hang out with me, I stream from time to time and love to chat with chat.

A Twitter you can follow too

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[flower-boi16]

Lily Orchard's Takes on "Racism" in The Owl House Are Garbage and Here's Why

Hello. You may know me as the guy who made two whole posts debunking Lily Orchard's takes on Hunter. Although those posts are not perfect and I do think there are some things I could add or change about them, they still hold up as I still stand by every single point I made in them.

But to say that Lily's bad Owl House takes end with Hunter would be a lie. There is this particular narrative about both TOH fandom and the show itself that she tries to paint that really pisses me off, that being the whole "Racism" narrative. I talked about it briefly in my second Hunter post but this narrative has so much objectively wrong with it that it's best to make a whole post refuting it. Here I'm going to go over Lily's takes on three characters that she primarily uses to push this whole racism narrative; Amity, Hunter, and Luz. Without further ado, let's begin...

NOTE: This post is LONG. Like, very very very very long. Its the longest post I've ever made and the longest essay I have ever posted on the internet. If you don't want to read all of that then just skip to section 7 where I have a TLDR for those who don't want to read an 8375-word long post that takes at least almost a full hour to read. So...ya, let's begin.

1. Lily Orchard's Takes on Amity are Garbage and Here's Why

I'll be covering Lily's Video "An Incoherent Discussion About Main Characters" mainly TOH segment as its the video where she talks the most about Amity. This is where the problems with Lily's narrative begin, that being; Lily saying that white characters are popular because of white favoritism rather than the fact that they are actually well written characters.

Oh, you thought Hunter was the only character Lily accused people of being racist for liking, ya, no. In the beginning of the TOH segment, Lily tries to argue that there's no reason for the fandom to love Amity so much because she (supposedly) has little depth as a character....

"At this point, Amity had no depth outside of being the bully, It's only until a month later that that would change. But the fandom latched onto Amity the moment she was introduced and hyped her up incessantly. with only a few clips where her ego is bruised and nothing else. And the thing is, Amity had nothing to her at this point. It's a common complaint from people that the fandom reduces Amity these days to just gay panic and shipping, but as of season 2, that is what she is, love interest, abusive parents, and that's it"

"Amity is a one-note character, and I don't say that as a bad thing characters fit the role that they were made for and there really isn't anything wrong with that. Amity is an obstacle for Luz to overcome and then her love interest and then occasionally gets a few moments of depth."

This is...objectively incorrect. Note I was not in the fandom at the time season 1 was airing (I only got into The Owl House when the show had already ended) however, Lily tries to act as if Amity is a character with little depth and that the fandom has no reason to like her so much. This is likely done so Lily can gaslight you into thinking she has a point so she can paint the TOH fandom as racist. Amity does go through character development throughout the show, as in season 1 she gradually becomes a better person and even makes amens with Willow after cutting her off during childhood.

She has a lot of moments of depth in episode Convention, Lost in Language, Understanding Willow, Escaping Expulsion, Eclipse Lake, and Reaching Out that develop her as a character. These aren't just "a few moments of depth". Amity is a developed character, the fandom has a reason to like her. And maybe people latched onto Amity because they liked the idea of an enemies-to-lovers romance?

Again, I wasn't in the fandom at the time, but Lily doesn't consider any of these reasons that people may like Amity so she could try and paint Amity as a 1-dimensional character when really people like Amity for being a well-developed character and Lily's arguments that she is one note are just objectively incorrect. She's a girl raised in a prestigious and high-class family who has to meet high expectations from her parents and bullies people she can't feel any weakness, and was forced to cut off her childhood best freind because she wasn't strong enough for them.

However, throughout season 1 she becomes a better person thanks to Luz, makes amens with Willow and stands up to her abusive mom in Season 2, and in Season 2 Amity still has episodes developing her with conflict with her parents, she's not just Luz's girlfriend. This is a well-developed and three-dimensional character here, and there's a reason why Amity is a fan favorite in the fandom. But Lily ignores all of that depth and character development in favor of painting Amity as one-dimensional so her racism narrative could look like it holds more water than it actually does.

And for the "abusive parents" stuff Lily says this:

"Amity's relationship to her parents and her perfectionism only ever come out in the third act of any other episode with the exception of Escaping Expulsion and Eclipse Lake. Amity's abusive home life is a plot device more than anything else, something another character pulls on to get the story going, and the solution is almost always insultingly easy, and she's only ever brought into an episode because Luz drags her into it"

Once again...this is objectively incorrect. Amity still has a lot of episodes exploring her character as I already stated so the first sentance is already false. But then Lily says that Amity's abusive home life is a...plot device? Um, no? Its not a plot device, its an aspect of Amity's character that the show is dedicating episodes to exploring. And "the solution is almost always insultingly easy"??? What do you mean by "the solution is almost always insultingly easy"?? Lily doesn't give any examples here, she just says something critical and you're supposed to just accept that.

And now...we get the moment you've all been waiting for:

"So why do people get upset at the idea that Amity is just reduced to love interest when that is literally her role in the plot? Well, (and if this gets posted on The Owl House subreddit then uhh please cover your ears you delicate little flower children) white favortism"

And now we have Lily trying to paint the TOH fandom as racist for liking Amity.

"It's been a common refrain for a while that the show has a white and the fandom makes it worse. Amity was the first instance of that"

Ok so 1. The show doesn't have a "white favoritism" problem, this is something I'll get into more later but the reason why Amity gets focus is because she objectively has more importance than to the plot thank Willow and Gusm being Luz's love interest. And I already talked about the real reasons the fandom likes Amity that don't have anything to do with racism.

"When she first appeared in I Was A Teenage Abomination, the fan base instantly started hyping her up as the greatest thing since Eda the owl lady. They immediantly projected every fucking thing on the sun onto her, and Lumity was birthed from this"

What if people just again, like the idea of an enemies-to-lovers romance between her and Luz? And I don't think I've seen ANY ONE project things onto Amity, again there are clear reasons to like these characters. Then Lily says this:

"That was all it took. It's by sheer fucking luck that Dana was going in this direction with them anyway because there was zero basis for any of this. Amity was a minor antagonist at best, and Willow was the main spotlight of I was a Teenage Abomination"

"Zero basis for any of this"? Again, Lily is acting as if there aren't any reasons to like Amity when as I already explained there clearly is. And if she means no basis for Lumity then...Lily, Lumity was clearly being set up a lot throughout the first season. Its not exactly hard to see that.

"There's no reason for people to go absolutely this crazy over her when Willow was right there. Hell throughout season 1 Willow had more grounds for a romantic relationship then Amity did. But Willow was chubby and Korean and Amity was not and not"

I don't know about you but I'm pretty sure a lot of reasons for people liking Amity more than Willow is because they find Willow and Gus to be less developed than Amity, which is a perfectly fine opinion to have. Once Again Lily ignores reasons people may prefer Amity over Willow in favor of just jumping straight to racism instead. And there also isn't as much of a hyper-fixation on Amity as Lily says there is, yes she's a fan favorite character but characters like Luz are still very popular.

The rest of the segment really is not worth talking about. Basically after this point Lily just keeps on trying to reinforce her objectively wrong narrative of "Amity is liked because of white favoritism", her saying that she thought Eda was the main character instead of Luz, and she also talks about Luz and Hunter here but that'll be covered in their respective sections.

So Lily's whole narrative about Amity being liked because of "white favoritism" is wrong, there are real reasons that people like Amity, Lily simply chooses to ignore that because that would break her narrative. Now that we have that out of the way, let's talk about the next character Lily uses to push this whole racism narrative (and the most obvious).

2. Lily Orchard's Takes on Hunter are Garbage and Here's Why - PART III (...kind of)

Again, I've already made two whole posts debunking Lily Orchard's critiques of Hunter so go read those if you want the full analysis on why Lily's takes on this character are completely wrong, but in the second section of Part II I talked about Lily's whole narrative about Hunter's fans that she tries to paint, that they are racist and only like Hunter for being white. She does basically the same thing she did for Amity; ignore the reasons why people may like a character in favor of painting the fandom as racist, and she also tries to act as if Hunter is only liked because people push headcanon's onto him. I'll just paste this piece of text here since I already refuted it in my second Hunter post;

"In her video talking about Hunter, Lily says that the fandom only likes Hunter in spite of how he's written, which is basically her saying "if you like this character you actually don't like him...or your just racist". Ok so, I don't want to talk about this that much here, however, it's worth noting that Lily constantly calls people who like Hunter racist purely for liking a character she doesn't that also happens to white, which is a major yikes, as there are reasons that Hunter is well-liked in the fandom beyond his race. But Lily's response to that is "If you like Hunter you only like him because you push fanon ideas onto him when he's really a shallow poorly-written character".

Let me tell you why people like Hunter; he's a boy who was indoctrinated and raised his whole life into believing he was doing the right thing and that Belos loves him, and for his whole life he was had to prove his worth to the EC or he's just worthless, and a lot of people also see Hunter's arc as him realizing he was being abused. None of this is stuff that the fandom is making up, these are literally things that are communicated in the show itself, Lily is just choosing to ignore that just so she can paint this narrative that TOH fandom is a bunch of racists because they like Hunter, completely ignoring how people can have different tastes and opinions than each other. Oh ya, and someone did point this out to Lily once in a tumblr ask...Lily responded by saying "no" and then went on another rant about how the fandom is racist for liking Hunter and sidelines Gus and Willow, and says that if Hunter was black, people would ignore him like they do with Gus and Willow...that speaks for itself. I could not find a screenshot where Lily said this, but I do know that she did say that in response to an anon poking a hole into her narrative, which just shows how she reacts to criticism."

Like with Amity, Lily constantly acts as if there aren't any reasons for people to like Hunter, and the reasons people do have are just things that people make up through headcanons, when this is objectievely false. There are clear reasons for people to like Hunter, but Lily ignores that in favor of painting this narrative that Hunter fans are racist. She even calls than misogynistic and homophobic in her video on Hunter without showing any evidence of that. And NONE of the anons she showed say anything like Lily described.

She keeps on reinforcing the narrative that Hunter fans only like him in spite of how he's written rather than the idea that he is written well, which is objectively false because again, there are reasons to like Hunter as a character, and all of Lily's takes on him are just objectively wrong. This is just Lily treating her opinions like they are facts in a very narcissistic and smug way.

But again, I've already refuted this point so let's get into the other point about Hunter that Lily tries to use to push this whole racism narrative; that being that Hunter overshadows and sidelines the non-white characters and gets too much screen time.

"Season 2 only made this worse with the introduction of Hunter, who as a character has an effect on the fanbase comparable to Audo and Ren. Overshadowing every other character and causing white girls to squee about how much of a good boy he is, even though he definitely isn't one"

I already talked about how Hunter doesn't take up as much screen time as Lily likes to think he does in my first Hunter post, but I'll just put some comments that I got from my first Hunter post as they debunk Lily's whole take her pretty well:

"Hunter having dynamics with the rest of the cast is a good thing and while him, it’s not being “stapled” into them, he’s just interacting with them in a fucking episode. He parallels all of the main four teens in some way so it makes sense. Plus, he’s only in half or less of the season 2 episodes and wasn’t in season 1, he didn’t get the luxury of low-stakes filler episodes so he kind of has to make a mark during the episodes he’s in. Which is why he’s usually the focus or at least major in them, that’s understandable and he’s compelling enough to justify it."

"I'll never understand the criticism of a character taking screentime away from others, if this character is considered by the writers to be more important than others, then they have to feel like they really do matter, that's normal."

The reason why Hunter gets a lot of focus isn't because of racism, its because he's an important character and he doesn't even appear in that many episodes so he kinda of needs to make a mark in the ones that he's in, especially in season 2B where the show got cut short so the show needed to try and dedicate as much of its time to developing the character it just introduced in the first half of the season as much as it can while still developing the other characters and progressing the plot.

Also, here's a fun fact; as two comments on my second Hunter post pointed out, Hunter is a character that can ONLY work if he's white, because he is a clone of a 1600s witch Hunter. Just a little tid-bit I thought I'd mention.

Hunter doesn't sideline characters as much as Lily likes to think he does, in Hunting Palisman, Hollow Mind and Thanks to Them he gets paired up with Luz, the main character who is also a black girl who gets an equal amount of screen time with Hunter. This is an extension of the whole "Hunter is stapled onto other characters" criticism Lily has, where she complains about...Hunter being paired up and interacting with other characters. Again, I already covered this stuff in my two Hunter posts, but Lily's whole problem here is simply that Hunter is in an episode, regardless of the reason.

And we all know that Lily is entirely biased to hate Hunter purely for being an "angsty white boy" so I think I'm done here. Again, go check out my two Hunter posts if you want to see go more in-depth on this whole "Hunter takes up too much screen time" criticism.

But in short; Hunter does not take up as much screen time as Lily says he does, and the reason the show focuses on him is that he has more importance to the plot than Willow and Gus, and because he needs to make a mark in each episode he's in, and once again there are reasons for people to like Hunter that are not related to "white favoritism". Again, go check out my posts on Lily's critiques on Hunter if you want me to go more in-depth. But now, let's get into the final character that Lily tries to use to push this whole narrative, and that is...

3. Lily Orchard's Takes on Luz's are Garbage and Here's Why (short version)

Let me just say, Lily's takes on Luz, specifically her trauma...are awful. They are almost as bad as her takes on Hunter, and I'm actually planning on making a whole post refuting Lily's critiques of Luz like I did with Hunter, but for now, let's just talk about the whole narrative she tries to paint with how Luz's trauma is received; this time I'll be covering the Luz segment of her fandom torture video.

But lets cover the Luz part of the Discussion of Main Characters video first before get into that. Don't worry, this will be quick. Here Lily constantly tries to argue that people want to ignore Luz in favor of Amity and Hunter but they can't because she is the main character

"But the thing is, while Amity and Hunter caused Willow and Gus to be completely sidlined, (and even their episodes in season 2 have generally just been them playing second fiddle to one of those two) neither of them have managed to sideline Luz. Amity's entire role in the story is to be a supporting character to Luz everything she does is to help and further Luz's goals and Hunter is an antagonistic force in Luz's story, trying to stop her efforts because they interfere with the goals of emperor Belos."

"Amity is the supporting character and love interest, and Hunter is the villain. And I imagine that is something that probably sticks in the craw of the Amity-Hunter hype train, they fact that they can't just ignore Luz like they clearly want to because the characters they like come with Luz attached as a default."

Not only does Lily not give ANY evidence to support her narrative, she's also just... objectively wrong. Luz is a beloved character in the fandom, there's tons of videos about her that get a shit ton of views, there's a lot of fan art and fan works around Luz, etc etc. People who like Amity and Hunter probably also like Luz a lot too. Just look at the Luz Noceda Tumblr tag and you'll see that it has more followers than either of any of Hunter and Amity's tags do.

Lily does not give any evidence to support her whole narrative and acts as if the TOH fandom really wants to ignore Luz, but as I already said Luz is still a beloved and fan-favorite character within the fandom, its not exactly hard to see that. Just because people like Amity and Hunter doesn't mean they secretly dislike Luz or something, that's just stupid.

I could go on and on about this but you get my point; Lily's entire narrative that she tries to paint that People want to ignore Luz is just straight-up false and she does not support her claim with any evidence whatsoever.

But now, let's get into the real meat of things; the narrative that Lily tries to paint in her Fandom Torture video. Again, Lily's takes on Luz's trauma are just as awful as her takes on Hunter but I'll only focus on the racism narrative she tries to paint, that being that the fandom likes watching 14-year-old black girls suffer I'm not joking. This is the narrative that Lily actually tries to paint;

"But the truth is...ya fandom does love this shit. They love watching characters' angst forever. They love their three thousand-word slow-burn hurt with no comfort fix. They love watching characters suffer especially if they're women, and especially if they're black, and Luz is both."

.......Lily, fuck you. This is a lie, a straight-up lie. Lily is trying to trick you into thinking that the TOH fandom are sadistic monsters who enjoy watching 14-year-old girls who are also black suffer, and not only is that objectively incorrect, it's also just...so unbelievably gross given the real reasons why people like Luz's depression arc.

Do you want to know why this pisses me off so much? The actual reason why people like Luz's trauma arc isn't because they enjoy watching children suffer, its because aside from it being a realistic and believable depression arc, it also resonates with a lot of people. No joke, apparently there are a lot of people who relate to Luz and see themselves through her. Dana created a depression arc for a character that ACTUAL PEOPLE WITH TRUAMA AND SELF-LOATHING ISSUES CAN RELATE TO.

NOT TO MENTION the fact that a lot of people in the fan base actually sympathize with Luz her and her self-loathing issues. Luz's trauma arc is well-received because it was able to resonate with a lot of people, and the fact that Lily chooses to ignore that in favor of painting the TOH fandom as a bunch of racists who enjoy watching black women suffer is just...disgusting. Fuck you Lily, and I mean that very sincerely.

Oh wait, cuz I'm not done with this! Hunter, a character that has gone through just as much trauma as Luz, and whose trauma is also well received by the fandom as well, Lily just ignores. So its bad when Luz gets traumatized and people like it but when the same happens to Hunter it's ok? Oh wait, I forgot, Hunter is a white boy and Luz is a black girl, that's the difference.

Lily, I'm so fucking sick of your double standards. So its bad when a fandom likes a black girl getting traumatized but when it's a white boy you don't complain and don't go and call them racist? That's stupid.

You probably already get my point by now so I'll just end this section here; Lily's whole narrative of the TOH fandom liking Luz being traumatized because they are sadistic monsters who enjoy watching black girls suffer is both flawed and disgusting, so is her narrative about the fandom wanting to ignore Luz in favor of other characters which is also objectively incorrect. But wait, there is one last video of Lily trying to push this narrative that I have not mentioned yet...

... it's the white favoritism video mentioning Hunter

4. The White Favoritism Video is Garbage and Here's Why

So for this post I decided to go ahead and watch Lily's white favoritism video, specifically the Hunter segments. I went into this video with very low expectations, expecting it to just be Lily repeating the same points she already made over and over again. And...holy shit. This video is AWFUL. Like I knew it was going to be bad, but I was not ready for the amount of bullshit Lily was going to spew. I was left completely shocked and speechless by the end of the second segment at what Lily just said in those two segments.

Time for me to tear apart both of these awful segments. Let's start with the first one, and only 16 seconds in after reinforcing her whole "Hunter is only liked because of fandom shit" narrative, Lily already starts talking bullshit:

"Even his rebelling against an abuser in the canon is undercut by the fact that it's basically a preordained destiny because every golden guard has betrayed Belos."

WHAT????! Hunter would have never betrayed Belos in the first place in if the events of Hollow Mind had never happened, hell when Luz and Hunter saw the memories of Belos doing evil things Hunter constantly tried making excuses for Belos and spent most of it being in denial. And we don't even KNOW anything about the golden guards, maybe they could've eventually realized on their own that Belos was evil, that doesn't undercut Hunter breaking from his abuser!

Then Lily says this:

"Furthermore Hunter ended up being the vector for a lot of people to start caring about Willow, Daruis and Camila, insofar so they could be used to bolster Hunter's character with romance and adoption respectively before this point these characters were ignored or in some cases vilified"

I don't really know about Willow but for Darius and Camila this is just wrong, from what I've heard Camila starting getting popular once the episode Yesterday's Lie premiered, and the reason Darius was vilified before Any Sport in a Storm is because...in he was a villain in the show until this episode showed us he may not be. This isn't racism, Darius's last appearance before this has him as an antagonist, that's why he was "vilified" before Any Sport in a Storm. The rest of this segment is not worth talking about, its just Lily reinforcing her broken narrative about Hunter only being liked because of fandom stuff when that's literally not the reason why he's well-liked as I already explained so now let's move onto the second section...

....the second section is actually worse than the first one. The amount of bullshit Lily was speaking during that three minutes gave me a stroke. So Lily actually starts off by acknowledging the accusations she has been that she only hates Hunter for being white and would've liked him if he was black (which is an undisputed fact), since she constantly complains about him being a boring white boy. How does she respond to this? Does she try to refute this in some way?

....No. Instead, what Lily says next left my jaw wide open as I tried to process wtf I just heard. This is what Lily says:

"When I started criticizing Hunter it came around the time I became a lot more vocally invested in non-white characters and some people in a prime example of desperately trying to give me what they think is a taste of my own medicine came up to me and said with whole pussy "If Hunter was black, you'd like him" with a very simple truth, "If Hunter was black, you wouldn't" "

Holy shit. When I heard this I was at a loss of words. Do I even need to explain why this is awful? Not only is Lily once again accusing Hunter fans of being racist to further her narrative, not only does Lily not even TRY to refute the idea that she dislikes Hunter for being a white boy, but she also even says that if Hunter was black, people wouldn't have liked him...even though Luz, a black girl, is a beloved character in the fandom. Lily cannot gaslight me into thinking otherwise.

Lily then continues to push this idea that if Hunter was black, people wouldn't have liked him:

"If Hunter was black the fandom would not have ignored every skleazy thing he does, like his supposedly best episode according to fangirls that established Huntlow as a ship where...he uses the power the state to kidnap several children and force them to join the magic Gestapo. They would not view this action equally if dark-skinned and stop writing that well actually comment you will not convince me that they would. "

Hmm gee Lily I love how you ignore...

The fact that Hunter meant well and didn't know what he was doing was wrong as he thought that he was doing his friends a favor by getting them into the emperor's coven because of his indoctrination so thus he doesn't exactly know any better.

(And most importantly) The fact that Hunter realizes what he did was wrong and not only takes full responsibility of his actions but also goes out of his way to fix his mistake and get his friends out a situation he put them in AND risked his position as the golden guard AND ALSO was willing to take a lethal strike from Darius just so he could fix his mistake, something that is pretty selfless if you ask me (go check out this post if you want a more in-depth rebuttal to this bullshit claim. It's not directed towards Lily but it basically addresses Lily's whole statement)

Ya Lily I love how like all Hunter critics you just completely ignore that. Now Lily is trying to push this whole "racism" narrative even further, not even trying to give a counter argument to the rebuttles Hunter fans give and just calls them racist by saying "If Hunter was black, you wouldn't be defending him". That's not a good counterargument Lily.

THEN LILY SAYS THIS:

"Furthermore the main issue with Hunter is that the story spends a lot of time with him but spends no time developing him outside of making goofy faces for the internet"

hiuodshuviusdhfiudhfiudshfiuhqweqweqwe HUH?!?! The show doesn't develop Hunter as a character?!?! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!?! ARE WE WATCHING THE SAME SHOW!?!? Either Lily's is THAT illiterate of she's deliberately lying. The show DOES clearly spend time developing Hunter, especially in Eclipse Lake, and the very episode that Lily criticized earlier, Any Sport in a Storm where Hunter goes through development and learns to make connections with others and has real friends.

HE GOES THROUGH AN ENTIRE ARC OF BREAKING FROM HIS ABUSER!!!! And no Lily you are not going to gaslight me into thinking that was all just fanon, because its not, its literally communicated within the show, you're just fucking lying. Do I even need to refute this point anymore? Anyone who's watched the show would now this is completely false so lets just move on to the next thing Lily says:

"Making him black wouldn't fix these problems, it would exacerbate them, because now you have a black character you are doing nothing with yet proudly displaying you are doing nothing with him, and that's a problem because its now the third time you've done that"

Shows a picture of Gus and Skara

Ok, so...

The show is clearly doing things with Hunter, I already refuted this stuff in my two Hunter posts

Oh, I'm sorry Lily, didn't you say that Hunter being black would make him more interesting?

Skara is a MINOR CHARACTER that doesn't have any real importance to the plot, yet you want to show to focus on her just because she's black? What???

Also, remember the Skara thing for later btw.

"But all this distracts from the real problem, Hunter is only allowed to get away with being such a nothing burger of a character, despite taking up so much screen time because he's white and male. This is the only element of his character that people like and everything else is fanon that they made up. What little there is to his character is just ideas that were stolen from Luz and Amity and yet Hunter eclipses them both in popularity"

Do I need to explain why this point is garbage? This whole narrative that Lily tries to craft revolves around the idea that Hunter is flat and boring and has nothing to his character and nothing to him and isn't interesting and everything that people like about him is just fanon, and ANYBODY who watched the show would know that this is completely objectively wrong.

Lily, will you please stop trying to fucking gaslight people into agreeing with you? Hunter is an abused boy who was groomed and indoctrinated into believing he's doing the right thing and then breaks from his abuser and ends up finding real friends. This is not fanon, these are things being directly communicated within the show, you can not gaslight me into thinking otherwise Lily. The fact that Lily just straight up says that Hunter is only liked for being a white male reinforces the already broken narrative she has about Hunter fans. And once again Luz and Amity are still incredibly popular characters, I don't think I need to talk about this further. This point sucks, lets move onto the next thing Lily says:

"Ironically The Owl House goes to make Hunter a useless non-character because all of his acts of rebellion end up being underwritten by the fact that every golden guard has turned on Belos in the same way. So Hunter isn't even operating on his own accord its just gut instinct"

Lily, can you go five seconds in this video without saying something extremely stupid? Like I already said Hunter wouldn't have betrayed Belos if the events of Hollow Mind hadn't happened because he wouldn't have a reason to, he wasn't just going to wake up one day and say "I'm going to betray Belos for no reason at all!". Also, I'm sorry Lily, wasn't one of your complaints about Hollow Mind that Hunter was in denial for most of the episode??? HOW TF could you THEN turn around and say "Hunter's acts of rebellion were just gut instinct" like??? Hunter spent most of Hollow Mind IN DENIAL of the idea of Belos being evil, just because the other golden guards betrayed Belos doesn't mean its just "gut instinct", their genetic clones, not reincarnations.

And like I already said, we don't even KNOW anything about the golden guards, maybe they could've eventually realized on their own that Belos was evil, that doesn't undercut Hunter breaking from his abuser. Sigh let's just move on...

Now Lily's talking about Skara yaaaaaaaay

"Meanwhile if you like a character who isn't a white guy just because you vibe with them your expected to answer for it. Hunter stans can freely fawn over a character just because he's pasty and blonde as long as they invent pages upon pages of cope. But If I like a character just because their VA is cool and I vibe with their energy I'm expected to justify that like I'm in fucking court. I quite like Skara because her design is cool Kimberly Brooks is one of my favorite VA's and I like this little quasi-recovery arc she's got going on in the background. But butthurt Hunter stans angry about my criticism of the character and always throw that back in my face because those shallow surface-level traits of the character are things I call them out for focusing on"

So now Lily is addressing the whole Skara allegations except she didn't mention what people like me are accusing her of; liking Skara for being a black girl. Call it uncharitable, but Lily has constantly complained about Hunter being a "boring white guy" and explicitly stated that making him black would make him more interesting, and when asked how to fix Skara she basically said to make him a black girl, and since Skara (a black girl) is a character that Lily heavily hyper-fixates on AND straight up replaced Hunter's name with in the season 2 round up video AND since IN THIS VERY VIDEO Lily complains about Skara not getting enough focus despite the fact the show has no reason to focus on her because she's a side character with little importance to the plot, Lily has not beaten the allegations that she hates Hunter for being a white guy and likes Skara for being a black girl.

I'll admit in my second Hunter post I was a bit too uncharitable towards Lily since she has now at least given actual reasons for liking Skara, however Lily has still not beaten the accusations she's getting over liking Skara for being a black girl. There's so much evidence that points towards that and Lily hasn't refuted it at all. Also remember when Lily complained about Skara being another black character who the show did "nothing with"? Well, now she says this:

"This ignores the fact that Skara is a tertiary character and is therefore allowed to be mostly surface level. Hunter is a main character with the exact same level of depth as a background character."

So you admit that Skara is a tertiary character and thus doesn't have much importance yet earlier you complain about the show not focusing on her more??? What????

"You can argue that this is because the show was canceled but when you spend eight episodes doing nothing to progress a character the problem isn't that didn't have enough time"

I'm sorry EIGHT?! Hunter's arc throughout season 2 spans over the course of five episodes, not eight. And once again Hunter isn't doing nothing here the show is developing him as a character every time he appears, but again I already refuted this in my first Hunter post.

After this point, Lily stops talking about Hunter and goes on about how female and non-white characters are nit-picked and people act like you the weird one for not caring about their nitpicks and continues reinforcing her already broken narrative...and also makes a star wars comparison, so the rest of this segment isn't really worth talking about because it's based on points and arguments that I've already refuted. Besides this section is getting long enough already so I'll just end it here.

Good GOD that video was awful. Like, I already had low-expectations going into it expecting to just be Lily repeating the same shit over and over again...and it was, but it was also Lily making some of the WORST critiques of this show I have ever seen. Lily, how do your takes on Hunter STILL suck? The whole narrative Lily tries to build is based on points that anyone who watched the show and payed even a little bit of attention to it would know is completely objectively false.

Literally every single thing Lily says here has something wrong with it, I was NOT ready for the bullshit this video contained...

But ya, you probably get the gist now; this video is awful, and I've now gone through every single point Lily has made about racism in The Owl House and refuted each of them...

...But I'm still not done. Because there is a certain trend I've been noticing throughout these three videos, especially the first and third one...

5. Gaslighting

These next few sections are probably going to be a lot shorter since this abomination of a post has gone on for long enough already, so sections 5-7 will hopefully be quicker. Anyways, a common tactic I've seen Lily use during these videos is gaslighting. This is a manipulative tactic that she uses to try and make it sound like she has a point but when you really look at it, she doesn't.

We can see this with her insisting that Hunter and Amity have no depth where she boils them down to simple character traits (or just straight-up lies) to make them sound shallow. She especially does this a lot with Hunter with the entire narrative of "Hunter is only well-liked because of fanon stuff" which anyone who watches the show would know is objectively wrong. Then there's the whole "spite-based enjoyment" she tries to paint with him, where Lily says that Hunter fans only like Hunter in spite of how he's written. And in her Hunter video she...says this:

"There are a lot of Reylos in Hunter's fan base who are obscenely racist misogynistic and homophobic. And I sure as fuck am not counting them In who I'm talking to today. Hunter is a magnet for fandom racism and misogony, but today I'm talking past those people to people with a very sincere love for the character. You don't love this character for how he's written. You love him in spite of how he's written. And you should be upset that his potential is routinely squandered in favor of just making more shots about him moping and sulking. You should expect better. Everyone would have BETTER if did not waste time on this character doing fucking NOTHING."

Typing that as I listened to Lily's video pissed me off. This narrative is entirely broken once you factor in how all of Lily's takes about Hunter are complete garbage, but even worse, Lily is trying to gaslight Hunter fans who are going to watch her video by saying "If you like this character, you actually don't like him cuz I said so"

Fuck right off Lily. There are real reasons for people to like Hunter that are not fanon things that are being made up, stop trying to gaslight Hunter fans into agreeing with ffs.

Lily also does this a lot with Amity too, insisting that she's just a one-note character with little to her and there is no reason for people to like her so much, when that is not true at all. There are actual reasons people have to like these characters that are NOT being made up unlike what Lily is trying to gaslight you into believing her. This is an incredibly manipulative and condescending way to frame your arguments, that if YOU like a character you actually don't and you should stop pretending that you do.

Fuck off Lily. The show DOES clearly use Hunter to his fullest potential, anyone who watches the show would know that, stop trying to gaslight people with your terrible arguments. Again, read my posts on Lily's takes on Hunter if you want the full context of why none of her takes on him are good, but needless to say Lily really likes to gaslight people into agreeing with her here and that is a VERY manipulative way to frame your arguments.

Oh wait, I'm still not done...because now its time to talk about...

6. "Dana has a white favoritism problem" & Lily's Hypocrisy

Yes, you read the title of this section correctly. In Lily's TOH season 2 round-up video, she says this:

"I know we're all being very charitable to Dana but I think we all need to address the elephant in the room is that The Owl House fandom has a big white favoritism problem and SO DOES DANA"

"Dana is not doing anything to help if anything she's actively making it worse and I feel somebody probably needs to probably sit her down about that and just be like "hey Dana, stop""

.......there is no other way to look at this. There is no other way to interpret this, Lily is accusing Dana of being racist. Now, complaining about a show focusing on white characters too much despite any other reasons a show may have for focusing on these characters beyond racism is one thing, but to accuse somebody of bigotry for focusing on two white characters, ignoring any reasons the show may have for focusing on them beyond racism is just...

I don't even know how to even say it, it's just gross. Once again, there are reasons why Dana chooses to focus on Amity and Hunter as I've already explained, but Lily ignores those reasons and just casually calls Dana racist. Oh, and I'm sorry Lily, but if Dana supposedly had a white favoritism problem, why tf would she make a black Latina girl the main protagonist??? And also develop st. black latina girl a lot throughout the series making her a three-dimensional and well-developed character that a lot of people love and relate to?

Lily ignores all possible reasons that Dana may have for focusing on Amity and Hunter just calls her racist. Wow, as I couldn't have hated you more Lily. Oh wait, but I'm not done with this section, no no.

Now I'm going to be discussing Lily Orchard's hilarious hypocrisy here. I find it incredibly funny how Lily constantly accuses the TOH fandom and Dana of racial bias when she literally hates a character (Hunter) for being a white male. And when she constantly fetishizes black people and explicitly stated once that Hunter would have been more interesting if he was black. I can guarantee you that if Amity and Hunter were black and Luz, Willow and Gus were all white, Lily wouldn't complain about them taking up too much screen time like she currently does, you can't convince me that she would.

Lily so desperately wants to convince us how racist the TOH fandom and Dana are yet she hates a character for his skin color and gender and constantly complains about him being a "boring white guy". This comment from my first Hunter post sums it up best:

"Lily really just desperately needs a character to channel unjustified negativity into so she can act better than the fans who like that character. She found reasons to hate Amity that way too in season 1. She gets obsessive about how the series "could be better" (i.e. the series should do the specific thing that SHE wants even if it's not the creator's vision) and when things don't turn out that way she gets... weird.

Like she shipped WilLuz and was butthurt that the fandom mainly saw Willow and Luz as just friends and recognized that Dana was emphasizing Amity crushing on Luz ... but Lily was like, "How dare they ship Lumity and not WilLuz! This is the racist fandom hating PoCs!!!" without self-awareness to see that no one was being racist but her for assuming that people only shipped a thing they liked because one character looks Caucasian.

She'd get on her high horse and accuse Dana of "white favoritism" for having Amity be important and making the fandom like her... like, the leaps and bounds Lily will go through to turn herself into "the most noble person" in a fandom is shameless. She also would rip on Amity for being derivative of Malfoy or the spoiled girl from Little Witch Academia... when that character trope is what Amity was subverting by showing that Amity had depth beyond her snobby/type-A first impression since after her first impression she almost immediately started to show layers to her character.

I feel like Lily only stopped being so negative to Amity because even she had qualms against crapping on Amity when a) she realized that complaining about Amity being a bully long after Amity had since stopped and atoned for that behavior was getting really old, and b) shitting on one half of Lumity when it was probably one of the biggest, most wholesome LGBT couples in modern animation would be a hard sell for Lily (who as an LGBT person should be less harsh on earnest representation from an LGBT creator).

Along comes Hunter and Lily can't exist without having a designated hate-sink so she projects all her dislikes into Hunter for merely existing. His design being light-skinned and handsome was enough to repel Lily. Him being a genuinely good person who had a troubled life but still perseveres to protect the relationships he's forged... he's pretty much a perfect addition to the cast that kind of adds a missing quality to the series (like how Toph in Avatar the Last Airbender was kind of the special spice that elevated the series for the better by being added to the cast). But ignore all the good his character brings because he's a caucasian-ish character who used to be tricked into being on the bad-side. I'm also sure Lily was furiously spewing venom when she saw that Willow was paired with Hunter, since Lily wanted Willow to be with Luz."

Lily, if you constantly accuse people of being racist for liking a character you don't and also accuse the creator of being racist as well, but solely hate a character for being a white male, then I'm sorry, but nobody here is being racist except for you. (I could also mention her star wars fic but this post is getting long enough so let's just end it here)

7. Conclusion

TLDR for those who don't want to read this entire post:

There are clear reasons why people may like Amity and Hunter that have nothing to do with racism at all

There are also clear reasons why the show may want to focus on these characters due to them being important to the story

Luz is a beloved fan-favorite character and Lily does not give any good evidence to suggest otherwise.

Lily's take that people like watching black women suffer and that's why Luz's truama arc is well-received is completely false as it is well-received due to being able to resonate with a lot of people.

The white favoritism video is fucking awful

A majority of Lily's arguments are just her trying to gaslight you into agreeing with her

Lily complains about the TOH fandom and Dana having racial biases when she is racially biased herself

Lily Orchard remains my most hated YouTuber. She's a shit critic and an even shittier person, and I sincerely hope that one day, Lily's entire channel gets terminated and wiped off the face of the internet, because people like her do not deserve a platform. She has not improved and I don't think she EVER will. Thanks for reading this entire post, and...bye.

[thevoidstaredback]

So, I assume cores are like a ghosts version of autistic special interests, and assumedly not everyone becomes a ghost?

But what if Jack does, his core could be ghosts itself, and is one of the strongest fresh ghosts to be out there, one worthy of rivalling king Danny.

Oo! I like this. I haven't gotten too far into any world building, but let's see if we can do this some justice. I haven't ever written Jack, so this might be absolutely horrible. Also, most of my knowledge is purely fanon or what I made up on the fly.

Idk if this is what you wanted, but I hope you enjoy it nonetheless. <2

Jack Fenton had always loved ghosts. His parents read him ghost stories and myths and legends when he was growing up, his sister was very into the dark and macabre, and his brother even took him ghost hunting a few times!

Yes, the Nightingale family had been witch hunters, but an interest change came with the name change. It was a package deal, really. One that know one really registered until much later down the line.

At the end of his senior year, Jack meet Madeline. If you asked her, it was love at first sight. If you asked him, it was love at first fight.

Maddie, as she liked to be called, had been raised by her grandmother. The woman taught Maddie everything she knows about the supernatural, claiming to be a medium. No one ever believed her.

Jack had a friend throughout high school named Vlad. Vlad was, in every sense of the word, paranoid. He had measures against everything supernatural, metaphysical, real, ect. If you could think of it, he probably had something to counter it.

The three made quite the team in college. Maddie and Jack had applied to the same colleges, only going to the one that accepted them both. Vlad followed after them, saying that he didn't trust Jack to leave him on his own.

"Ridiculous!" Jack had whispered to Maddie, "He just doesn't like being alone."

Ghosts were the common interest between the three, having grow up around some kind of exposure, so when someone offhandedly mentions a theoretical way that a living being could enter the Realm of the Dead, well, they had to see if it was actually possible.

Which leads them to nearly twenty-three years later. Their research had gotten Vlad hospitalized, so he wasn't there to share in the success, but that hadn't stopped Jack and Maddie. They'd worked for years to build a portal into the Afterlife for the opportunity to study a real life ghost.

Their research, of course, had been shunned in many occult circles, but that's okay. Those guys were all quacks and crazies anyway. Who needs their approval?

Ghosts were the emotions of a formerly living being that had imprinted themselves on ectoplasm. The proof? There was a ghost attack on their college during their junior year. Everyone thought they had staged it because no one saw the ghost, but Jack, Maddie, and Vlad knew. They had gathered the small bit of glowing green goo to study it.

That glowing green goo had been what had powered up the portal when they got it build. They used it like a battery.

So why hadn't it worked?

Well, it worked eventually, but why had it taken nearly four hours after the initial activation of the portal?

Regardless, they had been right and now Amity Park was full of proof to prove themselves to everyone that had ever laughed at them! If only Vlad could've shared in the glorious moment. He's not dead! They just...lost contact shortly after Danny was born.

Jumping forward almost two decades, Jack and Maddie were sat down by their children, Jasmine and Danny. Apparently, Danny had been the one to activate the portal by dying. It was...a lot to process, but they were happy he had come to them, even if it had taken two years.

It made them rethink a lot of their thoughts over the years. But, you can't really teach an old dog new tricks, no matter how much you explain and demonstrate it.

They didn't hurt Danny! God, no. They'd already done that enough.

No, Jack and Maddie redoubled their efforts to study ghosts with the added intention of understanding them.

Everyone in Amity Park know that there's at least a 90% chance they'll become a ghost when they die. That is quickly lowered to a 50% chance when the understanding that intent matters in all situations, even death. Those who want to rest won't come back as a ghost. Those who have something to finish or do have a bigger chance of coming back. Maybe not with all their memories, but they might.

Maddie, when she died of a combination of radiation - because ectoplasm is barely radioactive, but consistent exposure for most of her life doomed her - and old age, wanted to rest. She had done enough in her life, so she was ready to leave it behind.

Jack, when he died of the same combination with the addition of pneumonia, wanted to be with Maddie. But he also wanted to finally finish what he and Maddie and Vlad had started all those years ago.

Upon his death, Jack remembered a conversation he'd had shortly after Danny had come clean about being Phantom.

"Dann-o?" Jack had asked one morning.

"Hey, dad," Danny had tried to smile, but he seemed so tired. He was always tired. Had he always been this tired? Was this a new thing? Jack was horrified that he didn't know.

Jack had sat down next to his son on the couch, not too close as to be imposing, but close enough to be comforting. "What's wrong?"

Danny took a very long time to answer, words seeming to fall apart in his mouth. "Are you and mom going to keep trying to capture ghosts?"

Jack blinked. Why wouldn't they? There was still so much to know! So many theories to prove or disprove! So much locked potential that no one was ever going to look into again simply because no one else thought it possible!

"I mean-" Danny scrunched his nose in thought, trying to piece the words together in a way that someone who couldn't read his thoughts or be in his head could understand. "You and mom have worked to study ghosts for basically your whole lives. But, now that you know I am one, are you going to stop? Like, are you going to stop hunting them - us - down? Are you guys going to keep trying to hurt us?"

Oh. Oh. He's- Danny, he's- he's worried that they'll hurt him? "Oh, Danny," he said, "It was never our intention to hurt you."

"But-!"

"But we can't just drop everything. We've been doing this our whole lives almost, like you said. What are we supposed to do if we stop it all?"

Danny didn't say anything. In fact, he looked devastated. Why..?

Oh. Oh.

"It's not like that!" Jack was quick to say, "We're-we're not going to hunt ghosts any longer. If anything, we'll probably just want to ask some questions? I don't really know. I'll have to talk to your mom about it some more, but- We don't want to hurt you, Danny. It was never our intention."

Danny had been very quiet and a bit distant for the rest of the week after that. Unless, he'd always been like that? But he opened back up a little while later.

Jack and Maddie had never really completed their research on ghosts, so it's no surprise that one of them would come back as the thing they spent their lives after. But now came the question of what Ghost!Jack's obsession is.

It's usually seen as insensitive to ask a ghost what their Obsession is. But, if you know what their Obsession is, most are beyond thrilled to share it with you, basically info dumping everything they know about the subject, sharing related items, and learning more with you. It's a fun experience for all involved, especially if two or more ghosts have the same or similar enough Obsessions.

Really, it shouldn't have been a surprise that Jack Fenton's Obsession was Ghosts, considering his life.

Once that was a widely known fact, though, some began to wonder what his core and powers would be. Aside from, of course, the basic power set that all ghosts get when they become a ghost.

Cores and powers go hand in hand with a ghost's Obsession. Sometimes they amplify one another, sometimes they compliment one another. Very rarely are they the same thing.

For example, King Phantom's core is ice, his Obsession is protection, and his powers relating to that of ice, mostly offensive and defensive focuses. Ember's core is fire, her Obsession music, and her powers are similar to those of the sirens of myths.

You get the idea.

Then again, the Fenton Family has never been normal, has it? Not even as far back as when they were the Nightingale Family.

King Phantom had figured out one day what his father's powers were, and, consequently, his strength. It was an accident, really! They hadn't seen each other in a while, and Jack's hugs were already monstrously strong before he'd become a ghost-

Who knew that ghosts could get shattered spines?

Jack Fenton, upon becoming the very thing he'd spend his life dedicated to, gained the ability to copy another ghost's power via manipulation of his core.

While most ghosts' cores were a single solid substance like ice or fire or shadows, Jack's core was ectoplasm. Able to change and adapt to his needs, not set in any one way.

Phantom was beyond glad his father, who became known as The Professor, was on his side.

Storyboard

[101flavoursofweird]

Willow & Darius: Rebels of the Group

I’ve been thinking about this for ages…

How Willow is meant to mirror Darius here! It’s really funny, considering how Darius became the Abomination Coven Head. The track Willow struggled so much with in the past…

The pair don’t seem to have that much in common on the surface, but Willow’s goal upon receiving her palisman was to protect everyone she loves. Darius’ priorities are "to help people and to care for those that he loves." I know, ‘protecting loved ones’ is a common character trait, especially in The Owl House, but the fact that this is said by/said about Willow and Darius has to count for something.

Both are willing to sacrifice themselves/surrender if it means saving their friends.

Willow trains hard to get strong. Darius is strong. (In magic and judging by his muscles!) Both are incredibly powerful in their chosen magic track.

Willow is said to be the leader (by Boscha, no less!) of her friendship group. Darius is a— if not, the main— leader in the Rebellion against Belos. He’s the one organising the game plan for the Day of Unity.

It might not seem so at first, but Willow is a rebel, just like Darius, and she encourages others to go against the Emperor’s wishes. Remember when Willow stood up onstage, defended Eda before her petrifaction, and stirred up the crowd into agreeing with her?

Willow might have started out meek and not wanting to draw attention to herself, but as the show goes on, we see she actually has a chaotic side. She was the one ordering the Emerald Entrails to land Darius’s airship when he captured them. She could be just as much of a rebel as Darius! In the Human Realm, we see her poking customers with a devil staff and stealing her costume from a shop. (Well, she tried to pay for it with a snail coin…)

Willow vows to get some revenge on Belos before she leaves the Human Realm. It’s never stated aloud by Darius, but I’m sure he resents Belos for what happened to the Previous Golden Guard (Darius’s mentor), and his rebellion stems partly from this need for revenge.

Darius and Willow each have beef with the Blight family. Darius used to be friends with Alador, but then fell out with him at some point as they got older. (Did Odalia have anything to do with their separation, perhaps…?) Willow was friends with Amity when she was younger, until Amity’s parents ordered her to dismiss Willow for being ‘weak’. Thankfully, Willow forgave Amity, and Darius made up with Alador.

Both Willow and Darius have a habit of bottling up their trauma and hiding it from others. Rather than talk to Hunter about his lost mentor, Darius treated Hunter like an annoyance (Darius must have been grieving, yes, but Hunter didn’t know this) until Hunter defied the Emperor’s Coven and got out of the castle. Willow doesn’t go as far as neglecting her friends, but she did distance herself from them when she was upset in For the Future. And in Understanding Willow, we see how much anger she’s been harbouring for years after being picked on by Amity and her friends.

We don’t see Darius playing Grudgby or Flyer Derby, like Willow, but we do see him attending the Bonesborough Brawl when Alador wins. Both seem to understand the importance of self care after working hard!

Obviously, both Willow and Darius care about Hunter, and they help guide Hunter away from Belos.

If Willow had remained in the Abomination Coven and she’d ended up working for Darius… I think the two of them would have got along well. Willow would have been his apprentice in the Rebellion

[caramel-ribbons]

Huntlow is such a great dynamic. Like, they don’t have the pacing and icon status of Lumity or the history and angst of Raeda, but what they share in common with all these ships is their payoff.

Huntlow pays tribute to the character development of both Hunter and Willow in a way no other relationship in the Owl House does. When Luz and Amity meet, they’re still flawed. Luz is still oblivious and naive. Amity is still perfectionistic and cruel. They spend so much time together, recognizing their own shortcomings as well as each others, and this acknowledgment of who they used to be and who they became through each other, is the foundation of their relationship. Luz learns to accept herself and be vulnerable and Amity learns to express herself, quirks and all, and accept unconditional love from another person.

Raeda is, in many ways, the perfect relationship dynamic. Two characters who’ve been together for so long, they know the other better than they know themselves. They have all these memories from when they were kids, and despite experiencing so many ups and downs in their relationship, they still care for each other. Even after Raine breaks up with Eda and begins distancing themselves from Eda during season 2B, Eda still knows how much Raine cares for her. They know each other on a deeper level than most ever will.

But Huntlow? They didn’t meet the other when they were at their lowest. Willow didn’t meet Hunter when he was the Golden Guard, and Hunter didn’t meet Willow when she was “half-a-witch”. They only know each other for who they are now, not the labels people projected onto them or the expectations assigned to them.

Hunter was forced to be stoic and strong, but around Willow, he can be awkward. He can be sweet. Willow became shy and insecure because she was bullied for her abomination magic. But now, she’s a plant witch, an athlete. One of the best plant witches, actually, as well as the captain of a sports team she created. Hunter has only ever know Willow for her strength, her fortitude, and her self-assurance.

Thankfully, this part of the fandom has shrunk considerably, in fact, it was never big to begin with, but I do still see people who dislike Huntlow because they feel it’s rushed, and they’re allowed to feel this way. But Huntlow only feels rushed in part because of Disney’s cancellation of the Owl House, but mostly because of how their relationship begins. When they first meet each other, Willow is a “captain” and Hunter is just Hunter. Luz is the one who sees most of Hunter’s unfavorable moments. His obedience to his abusive uncle and loyalty to the coven system, and every other character besides Hunter remembers when Willow was the meek and timid witch who had no voice and could barely do magic. Seeing two characters who meet after they’ve overcome so much and after they’ve discovered so much about themselves feels antithetical to most relationships in this show.

There’s also detractors specifically because of Hunter’s trauma. They don’t feel comfortable seeing him enter a relationship when he’s still unpacking Belos’ physical and emotional abuse. It’s fair, but what people don’t seem to understand is that traumatized people have partners. Victims and survivors of abuse enter relationships. If Owl House has taught anyone anything about love, it’s that love doesn’t cure, but it does change, even heal. Trauma shouldn’t prevent people from having healthy relationships, in fact, they need healthy relationships just as much as anyone else, if not more. Support helps the recovery process. Yes, the media has enforced toxic portrayals of romantic relationships, and yeah, many stories, particularly made for movies and for television, present love as this magical force that melts cold hearts and purifies dark souls. But, there is still a place in media for the representation Huntlow offers of abuse victims and their journey to recovery.

[secretly-of-course]

hi!!!! i need to know your opinion on this but do you think hunter knows he has a crush on willow/what a crush is? and do you think willow has a crush on hunter? i need your huntlow opinions 😌🤌🏼

hi!!! I want you to know I have been looking forward to answering this ask all day 🥰

*slams fists on the table* NOW LET'S DO THIS THING

Now we KNOW that Hunter has a crush on Willow. I mean just look at this boy and tell me he isn't completely smitten. But does HE know? That's a bigger question.

[ID: a screenshot from the episode "Thanks to Them," showing Hunter wearing his Cosmic Frontier cosplay and smiling and blushing at Willow (out of frame).]

For starters, I believe that Hunter does in fact know what a crush is, at least in the text book sense. He reads a lot, so it would be likely that he has encountered romance in some form through that. We know at least he likes Ruler's Reach, which despite King's edits we know still had some of Luz's influence. Also, fans who know Star Trek have pointed out that the character Hunter's blorbo is a parody of is married to a botanist so there's no way he would miss that.

Since it's common for teens to have one-sides crushes on adults in their lives like teachers or friends' older siblings, I used to head canon that when Hunter was younger he could have had baby crush on Steve or someone (bi hunter rights!) but since in "Thanks to Them" Hunter specifies that he wasn't allowed to interact much with the other scouts I now find that to be unlikely. Willow is most likely his first crush.

As for being AWARE of his crush, let's look at the timeline.

In Labyrinth Runners, Hunter is already showing signs of his crush on Willow though I don't think he is aware of what his feelings mean yet at this point. He blushes at her, he tries to make himself somewhat presentable for her, but he doesn't really know why.

[ID: Two screenshots from Labyrinth Runners. In the first, Hunter is blushing while looking straight ahead. The second shows the moment immediately after where Gus confers with who he believes to be Willow while in the background Hunter is seen awkwardly brushing dirt off his cloak.]

But fast forward to Thanks To Them? I think he knows by now. For this reasoning I point to the "Buff Brains" scene.

[ID: Two screenshots from Thanks to Them showing the hexsquad minus Luz in their shack. In the first, everyone is cheering and posing triumphantly all except for Hunter who is standing with his arms limply by his sides as he looks at Willow flexing and blushes from his cheeks to his ears. The second image is nearly the same except now Hunter has raised his arms to cheer with the group.]

Hunter doesn't just get distracted by Willow's muscles here, he catches himself getting distracted, which leads to him snapping himself out of it and adding on his awkward "HA HA YEAH" several seconds after everyone else has gone quiet. Hunter here to me seems like he is trying (and failing, bless him) to keep it cool, as opposed to in LR when he made no such attempts, because at that time he wasn't aware he had to. Whether or not he came to this conclusion on his own or had help from Gus or Amity is a question for fan fiction.

Now the next part of your question, does Willow have a crush on Hunter? Absolutely.

But Secretly, you say, how can you be so sure of this when Willow has never blushed at Hunter? Well I'm here to say she doesn't have to, and why? Because of Raeda.

When just looking at Hunter's side of things, or looking at our canon blushy couple lumity, it can be easy to say that only blushes equal crushes, but this isn't always the case.

Enter Raine. Raine does not typically blush at Eda, even when she blushes at them, but no one in the fandom doubts that they are in love with her.

Raine and Willow are actually a really interesting comparison because for the most part they only blush when they are embarrassed. Raine especially blushes when they are on stage.

[ID: two screenshots, the first of which is from "I Was A Teenage Abomination" and shows Willow with bright red cheeks as Amity mocks her poor abomination skills. The second is from "Eda's Requiem" and shows Raine looking red and embarrassed after Eda mocked them in front of the BATs.]

The only time I could find Raine blushing at Eda was in this flashback, and they only did it AFTER they were caught being flirty not while they were LITERALLY CARESSING EDA'S HAND suggesting they were more embarrassed about being caught than anything else. And even that blush was nothing compared to how red they get on stage.

[ID: Two screenshots from the flashback in "Eda's Requiem," showing young Eda and Raine sitting on their hilltop. In the first, Raine is shown adjusting the position of Eda's hand on her lute, while in the second Raine has pulled away and is looking to the side awkwardly with a slight blush on their face.]

Willow and Raine will literally be holding the object of their affection in their arms and not blush.

[ID: The first is a screenshot from "King's Tide" and shows Willow smiling softly while carrying a Hunter over her shoulder as she has just caught him in midair. Hunter is blushing but Willow is not. The second is a screenshot from "Eda's Requiem" and shows Raine carrying Eda bridal style while she proudly holds up a glyph. Raine is smiling but not blushing.]

Willow and Raine will BLATANTLY flirt without blushing.

[ID: the first is a screenshot from "Thanks to Them" and shows Willow standing in a doorway while winking and pointing at Hunter (out of frame). The second is a screenshot from "Eda's Requiem" and shows Raine reclining while smirking and pointing at Eda (out of frame).]

They also have these fond smiles that are reserved just for the object of their affection.

[ID: the first is a screenshot from "Clouds on the Horizon" the moment after Hunter and Gus have just done their special handshake. Luz looks extremely confused as she looks at them but Willow looks at them with soft eyes and smiles fondly. The second is a screenshot from the flashback of "Eda's Requiem" and shows young Eda and Raine on their hilltop while Eda plays her lute. Raine is leaning their head on their knee and looking at Eda with soft eyes like Willow's and a fond smile on their face.]

Damn, these spot the difference games are getting tough!

And just for fun, let's compare Hunter and Eda.

These two blush early and often.

[ID: The first is a screenshot from "Any Sport in a Storm" from the moment after Willow refers to "Caleb's" next day off. Hunter looks back at her with Flapjack on his shoulder and has a slight blush on his cheeks. The second is from "Them's The Breaks Kids" from the moment after Teen Raine has just done an impressive grudgby move. Teen Eda stands holding the ball with a light blush on her cheeks.]

I mean look at them.

[image ID: the first is a screenshot from "Labyrinth Runners." Willow has pulled Hunter in for a group hug with her and Gus. Hunter is blushing deeply and has a confused and distressed look on his face. The second is a screenshot from "Eda's Requiem" and shows Eda smiles and blushing while Raine extends their hand to her.]

In addition, we know Willow goes completely FERAL when Hunter is in danger.

[ID: two screenshots from "Clouds on the Horizon." The first shows an angry looking Willow, surrounded by vines she has summoned and eyes glowing with green magic and spell circles around her hands. The second shows Willow frantically trying to start the air ship to go after Hunter who she believes has been kidnapped while Amity tries to assist while also telling Willow to slow down.]

Of course, Willow is a protective spirit by nature, but we've never seen her act so rashly to protect her other friends, not even Gus or Luz. Because if you recall, to protect her friends Willow thinks she must be both strong and wise. It would have been wiser to take a minute to come up with a plan to retrieve Hunter before jumping in, it was not so wise to try to commandeer and airship that she has no idea how to fly. This is significant because Willow's emotions are so strong here they are overpowering the part of her that's usually rational and likes to think things through before acting. She cares about Hunter so much.

So in conclusion, Willow definitely likes Hunter back. She at least is more likely to actually be aware of her feelings from early on though, since unlike Hunter she had normal social interactions growing up and is more likely to be familiar with the subject of crushes.

Thanks so much for asking!

[avatarmerida]

Sweet Things

Writing pointless huntlow fluff in preparation for For The Future, indulge me.

---

“Wow Willow, you really went all out with the florals!” Luz exclaimed as she opened the door for the plant witch and her impressive selection of dahlias in every possible color.

“Thanks!” Willow said brightly, setting them down to go prepare a vase. “They reminded me of your mom’s tablecloth I found in the hall closet so I thought it would be a fun addition to our special dinner for tonight!”

“It’ll be like an explosion of color!” Luz exclaimed, examining the colorful folded fabric Willow had placed on the counter. “We haven’t gotten to use that tablecloth in awhile, it’s got a huge rip on the side from when I tried to use it as a parachute.”

“Oh, I didn’t even notice,” said Willow, making a mental note to ask about that story later on. “Well, I bet Hunter could fix it.” She finished filling the case with water and called out to the next room. “Hey, hon?”

“Yes?” Came Hunter’s voice, quickly followed by him sticking his head in the doorway.

“Do you think you could fix the tear in the table cloth for me? I wanna make the table look fancy and it matches the flowers I made for the center piece perfectly.”

“Of course!” Hunter said brightly, walking over to take the fabric from the counter. He gathered some sewing supplies from the drawer in the kitchen and set up at the kitchen table as he accessed the work that needed to be done.

“Yay! Thanks so much,” said Willow with a smile, placing the flowers in the vase and admiring the presentation. “I’m gonna go finish up some things outside then I’ll be back to help set the table.”

As Hunter and Willow went to carry on with their tasks, Luz said at the counter wondering if she had misheard Willow. As Hunter focused on his repair work, Luz looked at him with confusion as though an explanation was in order. After a minute, he looked up to find her eye on him and offered her his own look of confusion. “What?”

“Willow just called you ‘hon.’” She stated as though he wasn’t aware.

“Yeah?” he said, not seeing her point. “It’s short for Hunter, like Hun-ter.”

“Are you sure it’s not short for ‘honey?”

“I mean, she calls me that sometimes too,” he said nonchalantly. “But, I guess that’s not technically short for Hunter since it’s the same amount of syllables.” 

“Hunter, Willow is not calling you honey because it’s short for Hunter.”

“I know, I just said it’s the same amount-.”

“No dude, I think she means honey likes actual honey.”

Well, maybe? I guess it’s probably because my hair is yellow which is the same color as honey.” Hunter reasoned. “I mean, her palisman is a bee so it makes sense she would know a decent amount about that.”

“Hmmm maybe,” said Luz, not convinced. “But I think it’s because she thinks you’re so sweet just like honey.” She reached out to pinch his cheek and used the baby voice she would speak to King with. “Aww, look at you! Willow’s widdle honey baby boy.”

“Stop that!” he said, turning his face away from her. “It’s probably just because she really likes bees-.”

“Or because she really likes yoooou.” said Luz, not convinced or willing to be wrong about this. “Alot of people call someone honey when they’re, ya know, more than friend.”

The tips of Hunter’s ears turned bright red at the suggestion.

“W-w-well that’s just silly!” He said, not sounding like he believed his own words. “I’ve never heard you and Amity call each other that!”

“No, but she calls me her batata which means sweet potato,” said Luz.

“Do... all terms of endearment have to be food related?”

“I mean, I guess not?” said Luz. “But honey is a pretty common one.”

“What are... other common ones?” Said Hunter clearing his throat, trying to seem like he was focused on his sewing and internally hyperventilating about how oblivious he possibly was.

“Whyyyy?” Asked Luz with a smirk that seemed to read his mind.

“No reason, just curious,” he lied, as there very much was a reason.

“I dunno like ‘sweetie’ I guess?” Luz racked her mind for a list of examples.

Hunter squeaked. Luz looked over and saw he had stabbed himself with a needle, as though something about what she said had distracted him.

She gave a little gasp. “Does she call you sweetie?” Luz asked, raising her eyebrow.

“Sometimes?”

“Hunter!”

“She calls me a lot of things!” He said, sucking on the tip of the finger he has stabbed. “I mean, okay, she calls me flower names-.”

“What? Like what?!”

“She calls me daffodil, sometimes...” Hunter said quietly, the redness from his ears spreading to the rest of his face. “And like, sunflower I guess. But it’s not-.”

“Well you can’t deny that Willow loves flowers,” teased Luz with a smirk. ”Awww, are you her little flower?”

“Wellmaybeiamandyourejustjealous.” Hunter mumbled quickly and almost too quietly.

“What was that?” Luz joyfully inquired.

“Maybe I am and you’re just jealous,” repeated Hunter, not looking at her as he tried to focus on threading his needle. “I mean, you can’t expect me to believe that Willow doesn’t give nicknames to anyone else.”

“There’s a difference between a nickname and a term of endearment.”

That much Hunter did know. He knew what titles commanded respect and which ones were meant to ridicule. The only other nicknames he had received had been negative or ironic, two things Willow was definitely not towards him. He knew the nicknames she gave him came from a place of admiration, but he never dared to dream that it was such a... unique admiration.��

“So like, someone would use these terms for someone they... liked?” Hunter asked carefully. 

“More than just liked.” Luz said. “Like, liked-liked.”

“Sometimes like which times?” Hunter asked urgently. “Like, is it possible it’s just a coincidence and it’s just purely platonic because Willow just has a vast knowledge of plants that resemble my hair color?”

“I mean, some people use them that way, yeah,” said Luz trying to hide the delight she took in Hunter’s panicked expression. “But I’ve never heard Willow call anyone else ‘honey.’ In fact, I think that’s what her dads call each other. Ya know, her dads who are in looove.”

“So that could be... why.” Hunter said slowly, unable to deny that it made sense. Unable to deny that he was kind of glad that it did.

“Do you have any nicknames for her?” Luz asked, putting her hand under her chin as she took delight in watching Hunter process this new possibility.

“I mean, I call her Captain but that’s more her title than a nickname,” said a Hunter, searching his mind. “Should I have one for her?”

“I mean, if you want to, yeah,” said Luz. “It’s not like a requirement or anything but it could be a cute way to let her know that you like her too.”

“I’m not... very good nicknames,” admitted Hunter and Luz noted happily that he did not deny the implication that he liked Willow. “Most of the ones I've given have had more literal connotations and not in a nice way. And I’ve never really had a reason to use a term of endearment, what are some good ones?”

“My dude, you’ve come to the right place,” assured Luz, pulling out her phone where she kept a list in her notes for just such an occasion.

-

Hunter sat at the table looking down at his hands as he practiced what he wanted to say in his head. When Willow walked through the door he stood up, holding the folded tablecloth close to his chest as she reentered the kitchen, trying to seem relaxed.

“Oh, uh hi!” He said as though he had not been waiting for her to return. He held the result of his labor out to her. “I finished the tablecloth. Good as new.”

“Oh no, it’s even better!” She smiled, taking it from him to admire the skillful repair. She unfolded it and twirled around the kitchen with it like she had just been given a gown for the ball.  “Now it’s got that special Hunter touch, thanks so much buttercup!”

“Of course!” He said, taking the use of the word as a sign to test the waters. “Anytime... babe.”

Willow stopped spinning as her ears perked at the word and she quickly turned her head from admiring the craftsmanship to looking at him in slight disbelief. “What did you say?”

Hunter gulped. Maybe she really just hadn’t heard him?

“I said, uh, anytime babe.” He repeated quicker, leaning against the doorframe hoping it sounded more natural this time as he landed the sentiment with finger guns. He tried not to linger on the word so it wouldn’t seem like her was trying so hard but he did want her to notice so she would notice that he noticed that she-

“Oh, yeah,” Willow cleared her throat. “That’s uh, that’s what I thought you said.” Her voice seemed labored, as though she was trying to adjust her breathing. “Well, uh thanks again... uh Hunter.”

Just Hunter? No marigold? No honey? Not even dandelion? Titan, he had ruined everything! Why had he listened to Luz? Willow hadn’t been calling him those things because she liked him more than a friend! She was just being creative! 

“Of course, of course,” he said, now seeing it was his turn to steady his breathing. “Maybe we should uh, start setting up the table? Camila will be back with the take out soon.”

“Yeah, I wonder if we’ll need any sugar.” Willow pondered, still learning when sugar was needed and when salt was meant to be put out. 

“Any what?” Hunter asked as though she had not finished her thought.

Willow looked at him with a raised eyebrow before she understood what he thought he had heard her say. “Oh no, I meant actual sugar,  like for the table.” Willow clarified, a soft crimson dancing across the bridge of her nose as she realized he had a reason to be confused; she had called him that numerous times.

“Right, right yes of course,” said Hunter, embarrassed trying to look busy as he fetched the plates from the higher cabinet. “But um would you... like if we put sugar on the table? Like, would you say that you... like sugar?”

“Well yeah, I like sweet things,” she said as she gathered the forks and knives. She looked across the table at him, meticulously placing the plates an even distance from each other. Clover flew over and sat atop his head, resting peacefully like Hunter was the sweetest smelling flower she had ever come across. Hunter was so used to this action by now that it did not deter his focus and he subconsciously reached up and scratched her head with his finger and the palisman nuzzled against it affectionately. “You of all people should know that.”

[huesofgoldensun]

Okay so my Huntceda/Luz and Hunter ship is canon compliant. A summary of it is: Hunter and Luz through the canon events developed mutual feelings. Luz still loved Amity ofc, and Hunter knows she's taken + Willow and him having that chemistry made him more uncertain despite the feelings being there. Luz pushes the feelings down because Amity is her first relationship + that bisexual fear of your sexuality not being taken seriously if you're with someone of a different gender. As they grow up, she's very close with hunter, and he is with her. Nobody thinks anything of it because all of the crew are pretty close. But they're both the only odd ones out so far as doing magic. Neither of them can perform magic normally. :readmore:

Amity and Luz have some common interests (the azura books, magic) but they're eachothers first loves. It's all new. We've seen the issues in their relationship throughout most of the last season, and meta-wise Amity became not much beyond supportive gf who blushes. In my huntceda set up Willow and Hunter don't date until like a few months before the finale when we see them together. It lasts about a year before they mutually break up. Luz and Amity's breakup is an attempt at a collected one but it doesn't end up being that. It's the product of a lack of trust, growing apart and Luz developing her relationships outside of Amity. All of them being just as excitable and caring from Luz's end. She also has a tendency not to really confide in Amity which makes her much more frustrated with Luz because she's supposed to be her girlfriend. Luz tends to curl in on herself in times of trouble, or figure it out on her own, but Amity assumes she'll be sought out, so is often unaware of the issues Luz is struggling with. This is where those mutual repressed feelings crop up because Hunter tends to seek out Luz when she's off on her own. And she ends up turning to him for support for those stressors. Amity and Luz both still love Alura, and grudgby. But outside of magic they tend to lack things to discuss or keep conversations going. Which isn't noticeable for a long time since they're both really into the books and analyzing them. Luz also tends to get Jealous of Amity because of how together she often seems, as well as wondering if Amity could do better. (hormones, teenage stuff). Her conflicting feelings, wishing for more support, as well as the slow diverging of their interests (especially with Vee being in the picture as her legit sibling, and likely spending more time in the human realm) I don't see them ending up together forever. Also because this show has a real 'your first love is your real forever one true love' bias and that's...... not realistic. So they have a huge blowup fight that starts as a reasonable, kind of backpedally request for a break, which then escalates on Amity's end, and then on Luz's end in response. Their friends are sure it's just a couples spat and they'll reconcile. They don't. At least not at first. (they eventually become friends again, but it blows up pt. 2 when Luz and Hunter finally address their feelings after about a year and a half.) Willow initially sided with Luz, but when that happens Willow ends up going with Amity/siding with her in the dispute. Gus is confused and acts as a messenger before getting fed up with his friends constantly dragging him into stuff. Willow is really hurt by it, Amity is hurt by it. Both Hunter and Luz feel guilty but also REALLY care about each other and both are so lost on what to do. They initially agree not to officially be anything until they can figure it out. Luz is conflicted on her feelings, Hunter is not. Willow is wonderful and pretty, and badass and cool but just not who he really had those intense feelings for. Luz DEEPLY cares for Amity still, but it's just... not how she used to feel. They became more different than they were similar. And that's normal, but she still struggles a lot with it because they're all meant to be a team. Luz and Hunter ultimately end up coming back together officially but quietly. It takes a while before everyone is talking fully again. It causes a lot of friction before Luz eventually breaks down and it brings everyone streaming in together because of the front she was putting up to try to seem together.

[purpleamethy]

Pokémon Horizons and The Owl House have so much in common.

We have:

Gibeon = Belos (the bad and mysterious boss).

Amethio = Hunter (a mysterious boy who works for him, dedicated to his job, who respects his boss, he's a villain but has redeeming qualities, fights the good guys for his boss and he's kept in special consideration by him, apparently).

Spinel = Kikimora (close to the boss, he hates Amethio like Kikimora hates Hunter, we don't know if it's for the same reason but the point still stands).

Amber = idk he is pretty strange, he could end up being a Darius (if it turns out he cares about Amethio) or he could be a Terra or an Adrian (if he turns out being just evil).

The Explorers = well obviously the other members of the Emperor Coven.

The RVT = Luz, Amity, Gus, Willow, Eda, Raine, King, Darius, Camila and pretty much all the good guys group.

Terapagos = The Collector, idk why it gives me those vibes lol.

Lucius = Caleb.

[five-rivers]

Rumors of the Woods of the Kingdom of Amity

@modordracena @gamma-radio

AO3

.

There were rumors about the woods of the kingdom of Amity.  You could hear them at any inn or tavern you went to in any town within a hundred miles of Amity’s border.  You could hear them from storytellers and mendicants begging for their meals.  You could hear them whispered between children trying to scare one another, or old women doing the same.  

They went like this:  

The woods were home to bandits, displaced and deserting soldiers from beyond the southern sea.  Hungry people, some of them, desperate for money and not seeing any other way to it.  Well fed brigands, by other accounts, gone fat off the misfortune of others.  

There was a horrid beast in the woods, a chimera or dragon the likes of which had rarely been seen outside of ancient heroic legend.  It stalked anyone who entered the woods, and if you were unfortunate enough to be selected as its prey, you would never be seen again.  

The trees moved on their own, others said.  They whispered to one another.  They had eyes.  Sometimes, they had teeth.  They would lead you astray, if they could.  Move while you weren’t watching.  Confuse your path.

Or, perhaps, it was the ghost fire that danced between the trees that misdirected travelers and led them to uncertain dooms.  They were more common in swampier lands, marshes, bogs, and the like, but who knew the preferences of ghosts except for ghosts themselves?

But, no.  The woods were haunted, yes, but by the pale ghost of a child, murdered before his time.  Or was it the ghost of a young man?  If you were polite, he would lead you to safety.  But if you asked too many questions…

But they also went like this:

Once, the Conqueror King swept across the land with his thrall armies, seeking to make all the kingdoms of the world his own.  He marched into the woods of Amity.  He did not march out.

The woods were large enough not only to lose armies in, but towns, cities, kingdoms.  And, for those brave enough to dare them and the kinds of risks always associated with ruins, kingdoms’ ransoms.  Assuming, of course, that those kingdoms did not still live, in one fashion or another…

The princess would disappear into the woods for days on end, not to be found unless she wished it.  She would return with flowers in her hair and fruit in hand, no matter the season, her secrets kept tight behind smiling lips.  

Some said there were elves and goblins in the woods.  Small, clever folk who would trade the fantastic for the mundane, blessings for curses, memories for skills, truth for lies, and other, stranger things besides.  

Other rumors spoke of the oldest tree in the forest, and how it had been grown from a cutting of the tree of life itself.  They said the waters of the pool it grew by could take you to strange lands, body and soul together.  

And, as with any rumors, many of them were false.  Much… but in this case, not all.  

.

“Hey, Tucker.”  

The felter’s apprentice jumped about a foot, then craned his neck to look up and backward at the branch Danny was currently lounging on.  “I hate it when you do that.”

Danny grinned and propped his chin up on his hand, clearly displaying his unnaturally white teeth.  Especially the canines.  “Really?  I love when you do that?”

“What?  Jump out of my skin.”

“Maybe,” said Danny, his smile inching just a little wider, until it was at the edge of what was possible for a human face.  He could take it wider, if he wanted.  He didn’t. “Aren’t you going to ask me how I am?  Aren’t you going to ask me what I’ve been up to?” 

“I know what you’ve been up to, you menace.  It’s not like the bounty hunters you’ve been tormenting have been quiet.”

“Aw, you love me.  It’s Walker’s fault anyway, not mine.  Nothing’s making him send anyone.”

“Isn’t he, like, your grandfather or something?”

Danny shrugged and stretched languidly, like a cat, and reversed himself on the branch, fingers growing into claws so he could climb his way down the tree until he was sitting on a particularly prominent root.  Not the ground.  He tried to avoid that, when at all possible.  His tail lashed back and forth.  

“But that’s not all that’s been happening.”

“Oh, gods, please tell me you haven’t started another bizarre rumor.”

“Are they really rumors if they’re true?” asked Danny.  

“Ninety percent of them are crap.  There aren’t any elves in here, or magic immortality trees.”

“Well, I suppose that’s a matter of opinion,” said Danny, tilting his head to one side.  

“Your curse doesn’t count.”

Danny made an offended noise in the back of his throat.  

Tucker sighed.  “Is this something we’ll need Sam to fix?”

“Why do you assume there’s something to fix?  Why do we need Sam to fix it?  She’s the one who broke things in the first place.”  Danny tsked, then put on a disturbingly accurate impression of Princess Samantha of Amity, “Why don’t you look in the mysterious pool, Danny?  Why don’t you try out the red vial, Danny?  I want to see what will happen, Danny.”

“She didn’t say that.”

“That’s not what I remember,” huffed Danny, turning around. “Maybe I should just do this by myself.”

“Okay, okay, I give up.  What have you been up to?”

“The tops of the trees!”  Danny burst out laughing.  

“Wow… it’s just like the same joke you’ve told a thousand times,” said Tucker.  “But, seriously.”

“Seriously,” repeated Danny, “I found the Labyrinth!”

“Wait, really?”

“Yeah!  The part of the Deep Woods it was in finally opened–  Hey, where are you going?”

“I’ve got to get Sam,” said Tucker, walking quickly the way he’d come.  

“Well, yeah,” said Danny, crawling back up into the trees and bounding along tree branch by tree branch, “I want her to come, too, exploring weird ruins is kind of her thing, but you don’t have to–  Tucker!”  The plaintive cry was more of a shriek than anything else.  Tucker skidded to a stop.  “You know I can’t leave the woods.  Don’t you at least want to know where the Labyrinth is first?”  

Tucker skidded to a stop.  “Yeah, sorry, buddy.  But I just realized–  The reason for all the weird cursed weather lately.  The frogs and toads and all that.  There was something in the Labyrinth that could do that, I remember reading about it.  If someone got into the Labyrinth before you…”

“They could have gotten it,” concluded Danny. 

“Sam needs to know.”

Danny clacked his claws against the branch he was sitting on.  “Alright,” he said.  “I guess I’ll need to go into the Labyrinth to talk to the spirits there.”  They’d be old ones, slow with age and memory, bound to tree and stone and the ancient meanings carved into once-worshiped rock.  

“Yeah?  But you were going to, anyway, weren’t you?”

“With you guys,” said Danny, “and it’s no fun if it’s work.”

“Yeah… sorry about that.  Look, how about after all of this, we go chase down the river-spire and see if we can’t find those ice sprites again?”

Danny’s ears pricked forward, fur shivering out of his skin at the remembered winter-chill.  He soothed them away.  Stupid shape shifting not working right.  

“Promise?”

Tucker hunched his shoulders slightly.  “Well, we’ll try, anyway.”

A little too wise to the ways of creatures like Danny to trust even Danny with a promise.  Too bad.  Danny chittered, then shrugged.

“I’ll take it.  You know how to call me once you get Sam.”

“You say that like I didn’t just do it ten minutes ago.”

Danny shrugged.  “Hey, you never know.  Humans have bad memories.  That’s why there are all those rumors.”

[jess-the-vampire]

Probably an uncomfortable request, but could you please explain why Hunter is not popular because of supposed “white favoritism” or other such nonsense?

Well, ok, i'm not going to assume there aren't fans who might indeed act this way about the characters of the show, because I'm sure there are.

The show isn't perfect in itself, i feel the criticism aimed at some of the poc cast is fairly justified.

I do, however, think it's a bit unfair to claim that hunter's race was the only reason he's popular though. I mean, that kinda assumes hunter has nothing about his character that would appeal to others and i disagree.

I mean, take it from my perspective, as someone who is fascinated and invested in hunter, philip, and caleb as characters, all white characters.

What got me invested in the show was their interpersonal drama, all the tragedy and heartbreak and emotional chords personally hit with me. I tend to love stories like hunter's in shows, he's not the first character I've enjoyed with similar arcs and growth, and philip's fascinating character evolved from tragedy and what happens when the worst kinda people are left to hate without anyone to help them grow.

all of this appeals to me, and it most likely would have still appealed to me had they not been white. (Though, they are the only characters in the show that had to be white given the historical aspect)

I'm sure it's similar for a lot of others, hunter has a lot of the most compelling lore, and his story resonates with people (Let's be fair here, people tend to latch onto abused angsty characters). Like, c'mon now, hunter, belos and caleb had SO much lore about them in the fandom that most of the rest of the cast don't have, it's understandable why they got so much attention when they were so tied into the backstory and lore of a show. Of course people are screaming about hunter being a clone, it's a massive reveal and extremely dark! people eat that stuff up!

I think we just gotta remember people will have different things that appeal to them in characters, a character that might appeal to you, might not be for someone else. Even if hunter's story wasn't to your taste, it was for others, and i think we should understand that before assuming he has no other appeal to an audience then his skin.

I mean, amity is a fan favorite as well, and given she's also been accused of the same favoritism, it would be fair to assume she's also a favorite character of mine right? i mean, if logically, the only reason i feel this way about the tragic trio is their skin, then i should like amity more then characters like luz for example.

Except no, i've never been really big on amity, i think the mean girl turned good trope has just never been a trope that appeals to me that much. It certainly is a popular one, i think because people love redemption stories and once again, latch onto abused angsty characters, but she wouldn't personally rank my top 5 favorites in the show.

Same could go for eda, or lillth, who are white coded, but also not personally my favorites even if i understand their popularity.

i resonate with luz the most of the cast, and have probably the most in common with her, and i think she would rank above those three even if she's not my favorite character overall in the show.

I think we gotta look at these things with some nuance sometimes, just like how people who love philip as a character are not evil monsters and can have many reasons to enjoy his character, same goes for hunter that has nothing to do with his race.

you're not a bad person if your favorite character in a show just happens to be a white one, sometimes that just means they're a well written character who works for you and that's just it.

i think that favoritism should indeed be called out, especially when it's warranted, and of course it could play into why the show is the way it is or why the fandom is the way it is so i can't dismiss it entirely.

But we also shouldn't state it as a fact either, not without more compelling evidence at least.

And if you ask me at least, i think it does a disservice to hunter to think he of all characters has nothing else going for him.

[lollytea]

Controversial opinion off anon edition: I do not like the Hunter vs Amity trope. The genuine versus, like Amity and Hunter not being able to stand in a room together type of genuine. I like the idea of Amity and Hunter having an unspoken understanding of each other, since they came out of similar situations where someone else was trying to tell them how to be. They both managed to break free of it and find themselves. A common reason I see for the trope is “Hunter threatened Luz in front of Amity and she could never forgive that after trying to offer him friendship” but nearly everyone has threatened Luz after an offer, he’s not somehow special or held to a different expectation.

Another reason why I want them to be friends instead is because I hc Amity and Hunter as autistic and, being autistic myself, I think it’s funny when they hate crime each other. Literally every time I think of them going at it I picture the 2020 meme on Twitter about “girls w autism vs guys w autism”.

YEAH. In fairness I don't really see people putting any genuine animosity between Amity and Hunter in their content lately. It used to be a huge thing but has died down a significant amount. But yeah it's just. They like each other, man. Hunter has liked Amity since he met her. Eclipse Lake is a very funny rewatch if you focus on how Hunter just seemed to decide that Amity was his new bestie, undeterred by the fact that she was adamantly rejecting it.

I cannot imagine Amity possibly holding the terrible things Hunter did against him. Because Amity understands exactly why he did them more clearly than anyone else could. She understands just how desperate and scared you get when you're under your abusive parent's thumb and the terrible decisions you make as a result. Why would Amity blame him? She's been him.

I DO think that their relationship is initially a little awkward tho. Especially from Hunter's end. While Amity thinks everything's gucci between them, he still feels guilty and embarrassed over what he did to her in Eclipse Lake and assumes she still resents him over it. She doesn't. Like it never even crossed her mind that this would be a thing that he's worried about. She knows he's a lot like her so she tries to look out for him and treat him how she would like to be treated.

That's always been my interpretation of how they both behaved in TTT during the cosplay scene. Amity is a former mean girl. She used to be soooo blunt and judgemental. And you can see her struggling not to give her honest opinion on Hunter's fit. Because Amity doesn't want to be mean. She's nice. She wants to be nice. However....she knows damn well that if that boy steps out in public looking like that, somebody is gonna bully him (because in another universe SHE'D bully him) so she'd prefer to avoid that. So she tells him to change as politely as she can.

Meanwhile, Hunter agrees to change immediately, despite Willow and Gus ADORING his fit, despite HIM adoring his fit, and Willow begging him to keep it on. Hunter listens to Amity over Willow. Think about that for two seconds and wonder why that is.

In my opinion, he's tiptoeing around her. He's trying to keep the peace. He tried to kill her and threatened her girlfriend. He's gonna do whatever the fuck Amity Blight tells him to with a smile on his face. Amity is none the wiser.

However I don't imagine this will last much longer. They're absolutely going to become much more comfortable with each others after the events of the series and won't be nearly as awkward and careful.

Amity and Hunter are both very high strung, opinionated, passionate people. I know that if there was ever a topic they disagreed on, they would go to war over it. I'm talking a full blazing shouting match in Camila's living room. They're besties <3

[myohmyimanxious]

The Owl House headcanons part 2! Let's go!

- Luz and Hunter have fought each other so many times that at this point everyone ignores them until it stops

- There's never a winner (it's Luz, she wins)

- The adults have a bet on how long it will take willow to ask hunter out

- But only Alador bets that Hunter will ask out Willow

- And the look on his face when he raked in the money is so smug that Darius has to be held back from punching him

- Hunter is very confused and willow is too enamoured with him to care but is secretly plotting

- Gus and hunter took a long time to perfect their handshake

- Gus and matty are the kinda couple who just have to look at each other to get a message across

- It infuriates those around them

- Luz and amity do eventually get their mundane slice of life date in the human world

- It was a cute picnic by a lake at sunset, willow made a load of flowers for them to give each other too!

- Gus and Hunter are autistic

- Alador is deaf in one ear after an accident in his workshop

- As he's a grimwalker Hunter has inherited some of Caleb's personality traits as well as physical traits the most common and obvious being the way he 'mothers' his younger siblings (Gus, I'm talking about Gus)

- They also lay in the same position that Caleb took his last breath in when asleep. It scares Gus and Luz beyond words before the open up to Hunter about it

- Because he was made hunter is acc closer in age mentally to Gus maybe even younger

- Caleb was one of the local executioners before leaving for gravesfield, but was known to be forgiving and rarely believed that the 'criminals' deserved such a death, so like many at the time, he made Philip pull the legs of the victims to make the deaths quicker and painless as well as sometimes as a way of earning a few extra coins

- Gus and Hunter have inside jokes that make no sense and will laugh so hard they cry and honestly the rest of the group are just glad they're laughing

- Hunter can't stand going into churches bc of the religious element of Belos' abuse

- Willow punches people when she's excited and it hurts but she doesn't mean for it to

- Hunter has many bruises bc of this but won't say anything bc he's a himbo

- Raine and Eberwolf will tease and prank Darius relentlessly given the chance

- Eberwolf will also bite peoples ankles if they don't like them or if they want attention

- Philip was very much a shy child and scared of everything, and was badly bullied as a result. This spurs him to be the man we know him as now

[princess-of-the-corner]

Crossover minecraft: Pirates vs. Cowboys

Rarity's (cowboy) outfitters

Rarity: well darling, I suppose I can understand your thoughts on the matter.

Luz (undecided): *frustrated, downcast* the themes here are just setting me to be forced onto one side! Magic shows up more readily in pirate stories! Sea hags, sirens, it's a common thing! But on the cowboy side... well...

Rarity: ah, yes the issue of cultural values... but Amity has managed to pull off her western flair quite well.

Luz: yeah, but part of that is she likes working with the techies, the industrial revolution sorta stuff. *aside* and she looks adorable in both the southern Belle dress and her train engineer outfit, gosh.

Rarity: *smug smile* one of my finer works, yes

Luz: but she doesn't have to worry about her magic messing with character for it, cause her magic fits in!

Rarity: and your other friends?

Luz: Willow and Gus joined up with Captain Panthera , and Hunter is being a sky pirate with Jack and Doctor Doof.

Rarity: well that's one way of actually making the conflict work.

Buford, distantly: think fast, fashionista!

*cannon firing*

Luz taps her staff on the floor, turning her staff into a lacrosse stick, catching the cannonball as it flies through the saloon-style doors of the shop, and flings it back twice as fast

Buford:...oh boy.

*SPLUT*

Rarity: I think you just solved where Pinkie's missing party bombs went...

Doc; *suddenly there behind the counter* for Pete sake girl, just make a pistol grip wand and go with a poncho instead of wizard robes. Ya don't have to overthink it.

They're having so much fun

[astrolavas]

What do you think hunter and amity dynamic might look like? Are they always going to hate each other or do they have a chance to become friends

see, here's the thing; i don't think they hate each other.

i feel like that is.... a very common interpretation of their dynamic; where they both hate each other and amity still doesn't trust hunter and says only bad things about him and absolutely despises him, etc. etc. meanwhile in reality it's...... really nothing like that.

like, i love the idea of them having a playfully-mean/bickery kinda friendship, where they constantly tease each other about stuff and embarass each other and take playful jabs at each other. it's SO funny, it's so entertaining to think about. but at the end of the day amity... isn't actually Mean, like she's trying rly hard not to be, that's the whole point of her character development from s1 to s2; she herself says that she wants to be nicer to people like luz is. she definitely isn't cruel or hateful, or anything of the sort, like some amity and hunter content seems to make her out to be, so???

like, sure, they're definitely not FRIENDS-friends at the moment, they only really interacted in eclipse lake and then only as part of the group, so they don't really... have an established friendship dynamic.

like, for example, when it comes to willow and gus, hunter spent lots of time with them, serious situations as well as some fun/downtime moments included. they played flyer derby, they connected over personal stuff, they fought together, they spent at least a whole week bonding as friends and getting to know each other; they're close. hunter sees them as his friends and he still hasn't shared the truth about himself with them because he's that worried that they reject him for it and he loses them. he went his entire life having no people who'd genuinely care about him; he knows what that's like, and now that he sees how good it feels to have friends, he desperately doesn't wanna go back to the point when he was all alone. he cares abt his friendship with gus and willow, a lot.

and then, when it comes to hunter and luz, they didn't get to actually do anything fun and chill as of yet, all the situations they were in were, in one way or another, somehow related to survival or missions or fighting or running for their lives, but they're also very much visibly friends. it's hard to describe their relationship in short cuz it's FULLLLL of little nuances and the way it progresses is also so, so good; the way it seems like luz is the only one looking for friendship while hunter is only annoyed by it, even though deep down he still hopes to make a connection, even though he wants friends. the way he immediately drops calling luz "human" and starts calling her by her name right as he finds out the truth about belos. how they trust each other with their secrets, how luz offers hunter to stay at the owl house, how she never treats him as the enemy even when he's on belos' side because she knows it's more complicated than that, how they both went through a deeply traumatic event together and they're the only two people who actually understand what it was like. so hunter and luz's friendship still lacks those...... light-hearted "we're hanging out and having fun" moments but they very much are, also, friends.

now, as for amity and hunter, there's....... eclipse lake. they have a lot in common and they bonded while talking about their experiences as well, and amity offered hunter her hand (and really hoped he'd take it), but their interaction ended in a fight and, even though hunter was genuinely thankful that she gave him the key and he expressed it, they just...... didn't have the chance to get the closure about what happened. so while they're in the same friendgroup and, thus, friends by association, there's still something lacking before they can call themselves friends. (actually, just in general, i'd say amity is, out of the entire hexsquad, the most "disconnected'' person from the rest of the group... surprisingly. i feel like her dynamics with others could be more explored and it'd be beneficial if she got to bond with everyone separately as well, but that's a whole 'nother topic so.... moving along)

i feel like there would be some awkwardness/tension between her and hunter if they were to be left alone, since they hadn't had a real one-on-one talk since the whole eclipse lake situation, but once they got over it and maybe had some occassion to bond with each other more, maybe even find some mutual interests, they could definitely become friends.

and when it comes to all the "amity hates hunter and is suspicious of him and will never forgive him" stuff; even before, amity would trust luz's (and willow's and gus') judgement. i doubt she'd think he was still about to betray them or would be actively hostile towards him, especially not NOW, after everything that's happened. she sees what he went through, she knows his situation (not fully but frankly she still knows enough for it to matter and be worrying), she knows he's with them now. she's not distrustful of him, she doesn't think he's gonna stab everyone in the back.

i feel like post-eclipse-lake/pre-hollow-mind there might've been some bitterness left, from the fact that she gave him a chance but he didn't take it, and the whole fight, and what he said about luz, and just that whole.. situation; but even then, never like……. actual hate. amity saw (at least to a degree) what kinda situation hunter was in and could relate, saw how desperate he was and that he was troubled, and even when he WAS on belos' side, neither luz nor amity treated him as an "evil villain"; they were still sympathetic. i think, for example, in labyrinth runners she might've been a little suspicious of his true intentions at first, because she had only known him as the golden guard who'd do anything to come out victorious after all, but since willow and gus vouched for him and she saw that he wanted to help, she definitely didn't actually.. continue be distrustful of him. if anything, we saw alador accuse hunter of "being eager to return to belos" but nothing of the sort from amity.

so like, i feel like there might be some kinda unresolved thing between them and they definitely need to talk, and i DO love the idea of them having a very teasy/bickery dynamic, but there aren't any like…… held grudges or hostility or anything of the sort between them. just some awkwardness and unfinished matters. not friends yet but... possibly, in the future.