#but like less monster attraction more hes generally demonically aligned????

[waywardsalt]

sitting huddled in my little writers hut trying to piece together what kinds of effects i want bellum’s possession to have on linebeck

[alovelyburn]

I was wondering who your top five favorite Berserk characters are and why you like them? My bad if you’ve gotten this ask before.

Not in a few years! 1-3 are easy for me, it just gets tough after that because at that point there are a lot of characters I like without any of them standing out as particularly more amazing than the others.

...this is very long.

Guts Despite I guess being more of a vocal Griffith advocate, Guts is actually my favorite character not just in Berserk but in Manga as a whole, and arguably in..... fiction. I mean I can't think of anyone I like more offhand, anyway. As for why... I'm generally fond of the kind of character that he is: a complex personality with a lot of heavy issues, rage and emotional struggles. If you look at any media with a Guts-like character I probably like them - Auron, Senji Kiyomasa, Jason Todd, whatever, they're just my kind of thing but Guts is really the granddaddy of that type and he's more nuanced and interesting than any of the other ones I've personally run across. Jason kind of skirts close sometimes but it depends on the writer... and Western franchise comics are just less consistent by nature. There's also the Punisher but he's a homicidal maniac.

So, even though I like this type in general, it's sort of rare that they're the actual protagonist right, like usually the protagonist is some teenager and the broody complicated guy is like the mentor, or a scary guy they have to deal with or, in the case of a romance usually the love interest. That doesn't stop them from being fun characters that I like, but it does tend to limit how much exploration they get.

I appreciate that he's a protagonist who isn't always a nice or admirable person - that he makes mistakes and hates himself for it, that he sees his own monstrousness and struggles to control it and sometimes gives in to it (or even makes use of it). And the coexistence of his sometimes seemingly contradictory traits - his protectiveness vs the way he hurts people, his desire to belong vs his tendency to abandon, his insecurity and his cocky swag, his uncertainty vs his steel will - also makes for a multifaceted personality. Miura said he designed characters with a mind toward what they'd bring out in Guts and as a result, Guts has a lot brought out in him, I guess. Generally speaking the more complicated a character is the more interested I'll be in them anyway. This is something that's going to come up with Griffith as well, but I also have an attraction to moral ambiguity. I genuinely believe he's capable of being just as cruel, just as monstrous, as Griffith ever was (and vice versa) - and in a lot of ways we've already seen him do that - it's just that I guess a lot of people don't register it that way because his specific priorities better align with their sympathies and also he's the protagonist so people will tend to side with him anyway. But that... doesn't change that he's a person who will use a child as monster bait, or that he sexually assaulted a woman he's supposed to be protecting, or that he let the pilgrim camps around the tower of conviction get sucked into hell in order to get his ex back. It doesn't change that he's selfish and cruel sometimes.

Traditionally I also tend to be drawn to characters who kind of defy I guess stereotypical gender...norms? Guts in a lot of ways is a classic masculine type, but I appreciate that he isn't the no-emo badass that, I guess, he gets perceived as by some people. I love that he cries more than most of the characters in the series, or that his primary motivation is heartbreak over Griffith betraying him. That his rage is more cope than anything else.

I always say he'd reconcile with Griffith if he had a chance, as we know, but if you think about it that's kind of a dick move, I mean Griffith did feed the Hawks to demons and rape Casca in front of him. But that doesn't mean I dislike that I feel he'd do it, on the contrary, that just makes his emotional workings more interesting to me because it's a little desperate and sad, and a little selfish and monstrous, and I think he'd... know that it was a dick move and that he's a little pathetic for being willing to do it. And I think he'd struggle with it and hate himself for it. But I still think he'd do it. Which is interesting to me.

I also love that he's not motivated by romance. It's a rare gem of a thing, and I mean I do obviously believe he has romantic feelings for both Casca and Griffith, but even with that being the case I don't think his romantic feelings for either are his true motivators - he's not attached to Casca just because she's the woman he was planning to be with, he's attached to her because she represents the Hawks in his head. And while his feelings for Griffith have a romantic component I do think it's just one color in a massive storm of feelings. I always think Griffith is in love with Guts, whereas Guts loves Griffith which includes also having romantic feelings for him but it's not necessarily the primary driving force in those feelings.

Also, I really love a stone-cold badass. I've never been a person who automatically gloms onto the underdog, I guess; I know a lot of people are inherently turned off by overpowered characters or characters who rarely lose or whatever, but that just doesn't bother me, I love watching a character cut through an army solo, it's just fun for me.

Along the same lines, I love that he's relentless and can't and won't be stopped. This is kind of an interesting one because I feel like for a lot of people a big chunk of his appeal is that he is always kind of struggling against larger forces and he gets fucked up and he takes hits but keeps going. Whereas for me, the part that appeals to me is just... that he keeps going, whether that means fighting and fighting and never taking a hit or taking hits and getting back up is less important to me than the fact that he's always continuing to go.

And I like the way he mouths off to gods and demons.

Griffith Even though Guts is my favorite, I do actually think Griffith is Miura's master creation. The subtlety of his characterization, the ambiguity that sometimes ripples back just enough to reveal the edge of this vast and complicated personality and the way the reader is left to connect the dots is really fascinating to me - though I do wish people were better about connecting the dots instead of drawing over them.

I say this a lot, but Griffith is the one who actually embodies the reasons I love Berserk the work itself, the world, the philosophy behind it, etc. That someone like him can break is evidence that anyone can break. That someone as good as he is can be cruel is evidence that anyone can be cruel. That someone as terrible as he is can be kind is evidence that anyone can be kind. He encompasses the breadth and depth of humanity in Berserk's world, in all its beauty and all its hideousness.

I love every Griffith, though I do think all of them are distinct in their own ways.

During the Hawks Era, there is a certain innocence to him that persists despite the things he sees and does. He is... childish, I mean honestly, when I think about Griffith in the Golden Age this is maybe the main thing that comes to mind? Because he can be the adult in the room, he can be the genius strategist, the brilliant combatant, he can be serious when he needs to but these are all roles, and when his guards are down (mostly around Guts) his reserve melts and he's expressive and silly and playful and ultimately his self-image is literally that of a barefoot child.

That kind of informs a certain earnest purity that comes through in the way he sees the world and the feelings he has about things or people, and the specifics of the ambitions he holds. Even some of the things that people use against him - the piles of corpses you could say - are things that by the standard of the day really aren't anything he needs to feel bad about, but he's tormented by them to the point where guilt ultimately becomes arguably the driving force behind his actions more than the original ambition that created those corpses to begin with.

I think in the end, what drove Hawks Griffith was still a kind of kid looking at the castle kind of idealism - the dream of self-discovery intermingled with the yearning to build the kind of world that wouldn't make people go through the things he did. The issue is that in a more realistic world, as Berserk has tended to be (magic and stuff aside), that is hard to sustain.

You know what he reminds me of? For anyone familiar with Fate/ there's a thing about Artoria/Saber where she became a martyr to her own Kingdom because she ended up living for the country and sacrificing for the country which made her increasingly dehumanized and Gilgamesh, charmer that he is, realizes she's trying to carry the world on her shoulders he basically determines that she's inevitably going to be crushed under the weight of her own self-imposed burden, which he thinks is hot. Aside from the hotness of it, that always reminded me of Hawks Griffith - the way he tried to carry the Hawks on his back and never let them see that he was imperfect, the way he lived to maintain that image so they had something to believe in, and the way it strained the man underneath.

And that! Is! FASCINATING, look as much as I love Guts for being basically made of steel, I also love Griffith for not being as mentally resilient as Guts is - in fact so many of the reasons I glommed onto Griffith are the direct opposite of reasons I love Guts - so much of Griffith's character is driven by his feelings for Guts, especially during the Golden Age, and I find that to be just as fascinating as Guts' romantic ambivalence. In so many ways Griffith seems larger than life and inhumanly perfect - invincible like he can withstand anything, but all that strength can't hold him up when his heart breaks. In the end its his fragile human heart that is his downfall every time. And the breakable interior underneath his epic hero exterior makes for an interesting cocktail.

This is getting too long so I'm going to try to be brief with Neo - obviously he embodies the larger cosmic themes of Berserk even more than Hawks Griffith does - but I also find him fascinating as the fallout from everything that went on with Hawks Griffith. Because Griffith tried so hard to be a person who lived for his dreams and wasn't battered about by his emotions but he couldn't manage it and so when he's remade in the image he desires he becomes the thing he wanted to be, and its beautiful and epic and inspiring but also kind of hollow and sad. Griffith lives in the fallout from making the wish with the consequences he didn't expect, and it's interesting because it's not wholly clear how much he realizes what he's lost - how much he feels it - until the external imposition of factors that bring his emotions back full force for those shreds of time between transformations.

Farnese She's been my third favorite for... ages. That said, she's not Guts or Griffith so I don't have as much to say about her. I just think she's an interesting character - the changes that take place in her as she tries to reinvent herself are really cool to me.

If you line the events we know up chronologically you get a pretty cohesive story about this emotionally abandoned girl who cycles through various forms of trying to locate herself and her place in the world and forming kind of frantic dependencies on various copium flavors until she is ultimately forced to face the lie that her life had been, at which point she has to start over from nothing. I think that's a cool and very human story. Also, it's interesting to me to see this person who, when we first meet her, seems so powerful (in a political sense) and determined have all those masks torn down until you see the terrified lost person inside all the trappings... and then to see her build herself back up, but in the way she chooses and through the means she desires, having finally been untethered from the obligation and demands of her family or the church.

Farnese is kind of a normal person to me, you know? Like Guts and Griffith are Epic Heroes - they're Made Differently in that heroic form. And people like Serpico are kind of skirting the edges between normal and epic - I'd call him kind of a normal hero as opposed to an epic hero and then there's Farnese who is very cool yes, but ultimately also a basically normal person. And watching her grow and adjust in this world that is deeply hostile to normal people - not just the Berserk world as a whole but the specific path that she goes onto by following Guts - is A+ entertainment for me. It also makes her admirable, because she was born to such extreme wealth and could have had such an easy life if she decided to put her tail between her legs and run home, but she didn't.

So... yeah I mean I think it's a good arc.

From here the short list was Charlotte, Serpico, Zodd and Rickert.

Charlotte I talked a lot about why I like her so much pretty recently, but to quickly recap... I enjoy watching her develop from a sheltered shy shrinking violet into someone who is, while still very gentle and quiet, far stronger and more resilient than one would have expected. I love that she has these progressive views - I assume she got most of them from her father who was quite progressive as well before he lost his damn mind, but it means she and Griffith are aligned on a lot of political views.The risks she takes to save Griffith, the way she loves him even when he's lost everything and can't talk anymore, the way she's able to fight off the King without assistance and protect herself for the year that follows... it works for me. She's a different type of character than someone like Guts or even someone like Farnese, and of course she doesn't get a lot of screentime since she's a relatively small character, but I've seen a lot of growth in her. I also think she's adorable and her romantic fantasy version of the world is kind of... just. Interesting. It's interesting when one character is in a different genre of story than everyone else, I don't know.

Rickert He stole Zodd's spot. Mostly because I always like that "last of the old Guard" type of character, and I find his emotional struggle where Griffith is concerned really interesting. In a lot of ways it echoes Guts' struggle, albeit without the UST. The bit where he smacked Griffith - that whole scene and everything leading up to and after it, is one of my favorite parts of the series - I love that despite knowing what Griffith has done, he still wavered on the edge of whether to stand with him or not. I also love that he decided not to, and that at the same time he still holds his reverence and love for the Griffith who used to be, even though he can't accept the Griffith who is. Even then after that, he's still reluctant to believe Griffith would have him killed - which I think he's right to doubt, because I'm so sure it was Locus who did that. Anyway, he doesn't do much - rather he does a fair amount but he does it in spurts and then vanishes for years at a time - but I'm always glad to see him when he shows up.

Serpico is still on the edge for me right now, but I've been warming to him more during the current reread, I guess because I had to think about him more than I normally do. So I wouldn't be shocked if he eventually overtook Charlotte or Rickert - not sure which. I just need to see more of him/think more about him to get a sense of where he falls for me.

I also think that if we get the full backstory on Skull Knight and Void there is a high chance that they'll just knock the bottom two off entirely and give me a legitimately solid Top 5 instead of, honestly, a Top 3 + extras.

[missroserose]

all you touch and all you see

“So...why are we here?”

A moment of silence.  Fingers tighten around a trendy reusable mug.  Green eyes flick up, meet his, far more sincere than he could have imagined, even a week ago.

“I can’t explain it.  I’m just...more myself, when you’re around.”

Sam Wesson is dreaming.  Well, half-dreaming; awake enough that he can tell that he’s lying in bed on sheets with some ridiculous thread count, covers bunched around his legs, the cool constant breeze of the ceiling fan blowing over his sleep-warm chest.  At the same time, he’s sitting in the passenger seat of an old muscle car, rain tapping on the roof and hissing beneath the tires.  The thrum of the V8 permeates his whole body as he flips through papers, research for the next job.  The automatic reverse on the tape deck clicks over, and Sam wonders how many times Dean’s played this exact Led Zeppelin album on this very deck.  A hundred?  A thousand?

Dean.  Dean is there in both worlds, beside him.  He glances over to where this Dean is squinting through the rain.  Takes in his scruffy jacket and worn shirt, hair standing on end in places, the ketchup stain on his jeans from his lunchtime drive-through burger.  It’s such a contrast to the Dean beside him in the bed, the Dean of suspenders and suits and Brylcreemed hair, the environmentally conscious vegetarian Dean who wouldn’t be caught dead driving a car that got fewer than thirty miles to the gallon.  

And yet, there are tells.  Little commonalities, signs that the two of them aren’t as different as they might look.  The way their eyes narrow slightly when faced with something they don’t immediately understand.  Their absolute disdain for talking about feelings any more than strictly necessary.  Their unbridled fierceness when they take on a threat, corporate or noncorporeal.

The way they both love Sam.  Fierce.  Devoted.  Protective to a degree that makes Sam wonder, sometimes.  Or would, if he weren’t every bit as smitten.

Sam isn’t sure what to say to that.  It’s disconcerting, seeing Dean in casual clothes—still natty in a sweater and slacks, but his hair is carefully (and attractively) mussed, his posture a fraction looser.  He keeps quiet, keeps his face open.  Knows, somehow, that this is the best way to keep people talking.

“You bring out something good in me.  If I’m going to keep climbing the corporate ladder, I need someone to help me remember I'm not actually in hell, you know?”

Sam can’t blame Dean for staying at Sandover, not really.  He’s on the fast track, in a position most people their generation would kill for.  Especially with the economy the way it is, steady jobs with good salaries and benefits are nothing to sneeze at.  Working as an executive is prestigious; it’s not like he was a cubicle jockey, subject to the indignities of unflattering uniforms and unsavory coworkers.  Dean is on his way up.

Sam, meanwhile, was on his way out.

The week after his slightly dramatic walkout, he’d been making serious plans to go hunting alone.  Spent his days poring over newspapers, looking for strange deaths or weird occurrences; imagined sniffing out supernatural threats, saving people.  He applied for a loan for a car—found a great deal on a Dodge Charger—and dedicated an afternoon to looking up supplies he might need to kit it out properly.  It was terrifying and exhilarating reading, realizing how much might be out there, how many beings he had yet to encounter, how much studying there was to do.  What to look for, what to pack, where to even begin.

Perhaps most saliently, his dreams—the strange, inexplicable dreams that had haunted him during his entire three weeks at Sandover, where he hunted things, where Dean was his partner, continually present—had stopped.

Then Dean Smith had called and asked him for coffee.

Dean’s eyes meet his again, just briefly, before dropping, a charmingly bashful smile spreading over his face.  “Look, I’m not asking you to marry me or anything,” he says, rubbing the side of his neck, looking away.  “It’s just, if you wanted...I think we could have a good time together.”

They do have a good time together—it’s a little surprising, really, the uptight executive and the slacker cubicle jockey pairing off.  But they share a love of bad action movies, and a passion for video games; Sam hasn’t had his ass kicked so thoroughly and consistently in Halo 3 since college.  But even beyond that, it was like their rhythms are aligned; they fall into cohabiting in Dean’s tiny apartment almost immediately, as if they’re already entirely used to living in each others’ pockets.  Work during the day.  Chores on weekends. And at night—

Well, of course, there’s the chemistry.  The sheer blinding-white magnesium-flame heat of the two of them together, as bright-burning as it is undeniable.  The way Dean’s eyes, green as his own, darken, pupils dilating, when Sam stands just a little too close.  The pulse-pounding rush of need that hits him when Dean’s mouth curls up at one corner in just the right way, the way that indicates Sam is about to come harder than he ever has in his life.  The soft, broken noises he knows Dean makes, that they both make, when they teeter together on the edge, a bare breath from tipping over, entwined.

“I know you don’t think this is our life.  What we’re meant to be doing.”  The words give the air around them strange twin taste—resigned and relieved, both.  “But Sam—it’s a good life.  It’s the life I’ve wanted, the one I never thought I’d be able to have.  God knows my dad didn’t think I’d make it.  Nobody did.  But here I am.”  His eyes meet Sam’s again.  “Here we are.”

Those beautiful manicured hands on him feel right in a way Sam’s never experienced before.  It’s not even sexual, not really—the sensation is there as much when Dean musses Sam’s hair as it is when Sam is shaking apart with Dean knuckle-deep inside him.  There’s just something about the two of them together that’s...centering.  Liminal.  Like they form their own shelter, the eye of the hurricane when the chaos of the world is howling around them.

Sam asked Dean once if he felt the same. Dean had quirked a brow at him, given a little smile—”What, like some kind of past life thing?  You going to start telling me we’re soulmates?  Whatever you say, Samantha—” and yet there’s something in the way he touches Sam at times.  Reverent.  Almost disbelieving.

Like Sam, too, is something Dean had never thought he’d be able to have.

“I’ve got some connections at my old firm.  I can make a few calls, get you an interview for a decent job.”  He takes a drink of coffee, forcing a pause; shielding himself for a moment from Sam’s reaction.  “I know it’s not your dream.  But you could stay.  With me.”

And yet, in a way, it is Sam’s dream.  Because Sam’s been having dreams again, almost from the day of that fateful coffee date.  Dreams where he and Dean do everything together that Sam had imagined, had read about.  Where they hunt demons, vampires, demigods—creatures that make Old Man Sandover look like something out of Beetlejuice.  Where they spend what feels like half their life in the boredom of long drives or library research sessions, punctuated by the heart-pounding adrenaline rush of a hunt, a fight.  Where he and Dean save each others’ lives over and over, where they would die for each other, probably will sooner rather than later, but where they’re alive now, where they retreat victorious with whiskey or beer to their shitty motel room—

Somewhere more private.  Lips swollen from kissing.  A hand on the side of his face, long fingers threaded in his hair.  Green eyes on his once more, open, honest.  Vulnerable.

“I’d like you to stay.  God, Sam—please.  Stay.”

—and where they never, ever touch.  

So Sam took the job.  Let the loan application lapse, eventually deleted the various websites on ghosts and mythology and monsters from his bookmarks.   He spends his days working in IT security, which is at least more interesting than tech support—it turns out he has a knack for breaking into systems, for getting into places he’s not supposed to be, for ferreting out information companies would prefer remain hidden.  And his nights—well, if spending his nights in Dean Smith’s bed (and on his couch, and over his desk, and in his office chair, and) is the consolation prize for growing up and letting go of childish dreams, it turns out adult life has its perks as well.

He takes one last look at the scruffed-up Dean—still pretty, Sam thinks, fondly; there’s just no way to make a face like that look common—and lets the dream fade.  The vibration of the engine, the hiss of tires on wet asphalt, even the dry-dusty smell of the Impala’s heater all grow distant; Sam moves his fingers, stretches, moves just enough to scoop his lover into the crook of his shoulder.  Dean nuzzles him, murmurs a few nonsense syllables, and sighs, settling back into sleep.

Sam takes a deep breath through his nose.  Hair pomade.  Cologne.  Sweat.  Dean.  It makes him happy, in the kind of way that leaves his chest a little tight, that brings tears to the corners of his eyes.

Most people don’t even get one life with Dean.  He gets two.  Gets to tread the thin line between them, the one where Dean is his perfectly ordinary lover, and the one where he’s—both more, and less.

As dreams go, he’ll take it, and be grateful.

[somnilogical]

transgenderer: okay so you know the trope where when you get too much eldritch knowledge and suddenly you start seeing giant monsters everywhere that are invisible to everyone else? that’s what being a trans woman is like.

this cluster of abilities keeps being instrumentally useful to model for reasoning about transfems. promethea and bendini independently talked about this:

[08:56] Bendini: This sounds like parody, but with californians it is difficult to tell

[image of fb post:

Daniel Powell: That report claims both that all entrances were blocked and also that a police vehicle entered and exited the camp; was that because the police vehicle was capable of offoad movement that typical vehicles are incapable of? My heart goes out to the kids on the high course who were subjected to unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering as a result of seeing people in Guy Fawkes masks, and all the people who had their personal liberty violated.

Like Reply 11h]

[09:02] Bendini: also this is a lot less credible if you haven't forgotten what happened with Brent

[09:02] Bendini: regardless of whether Anna is secretly a transphobe

[09:03] Bendini: rather than just scared of one particular trans person

[09:03] Bendini: the same sort of defence was trotted out for brent, and he was guilty

[09:05] Bendini: yeah, ziz is crazy and a lot of stuff posted is just ramblings

[09:06] Bendini: but I can see the model of everyone being sufficiently cowardly that the crazy bring forward the accusations before the courageous do

[09:23] promethea: gotta love how nobody can quite agree exactly how the people involved are Bad and Evil but people are nonetheless confident that they are schizophrenic/narcissistic/abusers/violent and must be confined and put on chemical mind control

[image of fb post:

Romeo Stevens: I'd recommend whomever has comparative advantage to familiarize themselves with the narcissism/bpd/aspd cluster, more evocatively called energy vampires. Such people are not stable and can grow violent when they are deprived attention they believe they are entitled to. The book Character Disturbance is fairly good for a start. It is a known falilure mode for communities of people who have faced their own social isolation to fail at filtering. To be clear, such people deserve compassion, but they need professional help. They don't benefit from a bunch of people whose time is valuable (one of the reasons they are attracted to such people because more validation) paying attention to their narratives.

9h Edited]

[09:24] promethea: there's been an awful lot of "not saying, but just saying" of a type that screams of monkeyball hysteria and attacking any characteristics that can be painted as vulnerabilities open for attack

[09:26] promethea: (also Ben the reason why you find Ziz's blog full of "just ramblings" is that you have a particular neurotype that is very... I don't have a good value-neutral way of expressing the difference but maybe "mundane" as opposed to "eldritch")

[09:35] Bendini: yeah the idea of someone saying get professional help is a strong sign they have not thought through what they are saying

[09:36] Bendini: like, a quick glance at what professional mental health treatment looks like in the US (therapy in the UK is afaik good for low hanging fruit, but not much else)

[09:37] Bendini: "these people should be reported to the mental health authoritities to be dealt with"

[09:37] Bendini: "Uhhh, I mean get the compassion they need"

[09:38] Bendini: I have to say, you would be the first person in the history of ever to call my neurotype mundane

[09:39] Bendini: I see what you are getting at

[09:39] Bendini: but it is like, how many standard deviations of weirdness are you on

[09:39] Bendini: and I said most, not all

[09:40] promethea: I think it's more like what direction your weirdness is in; "grounded" or "basic bitch" were other words I considered

[09:40] promethea: it's similar to the difference between EAs who want to find out how to best help the global poor, and the ones who get very preoccupied over whether insecticides are causing catastrophic suffering

[09:43] Bendini: "tethered to reality, somehow" would be an alternative

[09:45] Bendini: I think it's due to having like 50% really normie emotions

[09:45] promethea: "tethered to consensus reality" is how I'd adjust that phrasing

[09:46] promethea: it may be something to do with a sense that the world is fundamentally sane but just really bad at its job, vs the world being fundamentally insane and only aligned with the actual reality by little more than grace of gnon

[09:49] promethea: and probably some kind of a fundamental unshakeable-to-barely-shakeable prior rather than something that responds to ordinary reasoning

[09:50] Bendini: what do we mean by fundementally sane vs insane here?

[09:51] promethea: good catch, that's a nightmare to unpack

[09:53] promethea: a lot of the early LW stuff is comparatively eldritch in this sense, especially for the context of not having had LW yet

[09:56] promethea: in an environment where being trans isn't normal trans people have a certain inherent eldritch-ness, but a person fitting neatly into a third gender social role in a culture where that has always been a thing is not eldritch in that way

[09:57] promethea: it's the difference between "other people are trying their best even if their best isn't that good" vs. "other people are systematically gaslighting you about everything until proven otherwise"

[10:01] Bendini: ah

[10:02] Bendini: I'd put the difference down to people being really really crap at explaining things because the message is in there but it's between the lines

[10:02] Bendini: not intentionally, but because they don't know how else to do it

[10:03] promethea: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/sYgv4eYH82JEsTD34/beyond-the-reach-of-god this is probably the most explicit work by EY on what I've been calling the eldritch

[10:04] Bendini: and if you don't have enough of the fuzzy experience knowledge to do it, following what they are saying will be experienced as gaslighting

[10:04] promethea: and specifically, Beyond the Reach of God is trying to shake a component of the fundamental sense of security and move people towards the eldritch side

[10:05] Bendini: this sounds like the fundamental autist experience which cleaves into paranoia or extreme submissiveness to authority

[10:08] promethea:

I'd put the difference down to people being really really crap at explaining things because the message is in there but it's between the lines

not intentionally, but because they don't know how else to do it

and if you don't have enough of the fuzzy experience knowledge to do it, following what they are saying will be experienced as gaslighting

I'm thinking more of the thing about "seek professional help"

[10:09] Bendini: the yud post does not

[10:09] promethea: a mundane interpretation is "professional help isn't actually that helpful but I don't know that" while an eldritch interpretation is like "these people should be reported to the mental health authoritities to be dealt with"

[10:09] Bendini: as I'm rereading it

[10:10] Bendini: I do not believe the world is just

[10:10] Bendini: or that things will work out fine in the end because they always do

[10:11] Bendini: given, y'know, that I used to be a prepper

[10:15] Bendini: also I may have figured out how to reconcile "anna is a transphobe and admitted it outright" with what has been said

[10:16] Bendini: which I suspect pete knows based on what he said, but he doesn't say it outright

[10:18] promethea: "eldritch" isn't about just-world beliefs, it's closer to "a quality that makes one faster to disalieve things like just-world or other aspects of consensus reality"

[10:21] Bendini: I think there's some conflation between beleif in verbal consensus reality and belief that you can anticipate what other people will do probabalistically

[10:22] Bendini: I do not beleive in the former, but I think I had enough natural talent at the latter to reach a kind of escape velocity

[10:24] Bendini: i.e. have enough to build on/enough peices of the jigsaw put in that I could keep filling it in

[10:26] promethea: it's not about "eldritch means you can't model other people"

[10:29] promethea: if anything, mundane models are the ones that are sacrificing modeling ability

[10:30] promethea: ...seeing patterns where people insist is only noise but that noise just so happens to be awfully conveniently shaped...

[10:30] Bendini: if I am defined as the non-eldridch side, this sounds like something that could be falsified

[10:31] promethea: I'm feeling like this is a beautiful meta-level illustration of the difference between the neurotypes but way less useful on the object level or to someone who doesn't already have an unspeakable sense of what the difference is

[10:33] promethea: I don't know how to get the qualia across to someone who doesn't already have the thing and be thus able to possibly grok it from what I'm vaguely gesturing at

[10:34] Bendini: is there a way to demonstrate information transmission between 2 eldridch people?

[10:36] promethea: ziz's blog has a lot of content that makes perfect sense to people who have a quality that's probably strongly aligned with eldritch, but apparently looks like ramblings to people who don't

[10:38] promethea: some things are just ordinarily difficult to understand in that they require a lot of work, while others are actually mind-bending to properly comprehend, and eldritch minds are more bendy in that way?

[10:41] promethea: which also increases vulnerability to infohazards, cognitohazards, overfitting, demonic possession and generally going nuts, but the idea that eldritch is inherently less sane only applies to socioculturally mediated definitions of sanity

[10:42] Bendini: my immidiate reaction to "socioculturally mediated definitions of sanity" was "yes, and creditworthyness is a social construct"

[10:43] promethea: if reality is less well-matched with consensus reality then the bendiness of eldritch minds means that they can more easily construct accurate maps of the territory

[10:44] Bendini: can you think of a way to compare viewing that map to the territory?

[10:44] Bendini: as in, not being able to show the map is a given

[10:45] Bendini: but the outputs of the map

[10:47] promethea: seeing power, seeing prejudice and bias, seeing other things polite society pretends aren't real...

[10:49] promethea: and it's polite society all the way down

[10:49] Bendini: that's not really what I meant

[10:50] Bendini: I mean for example, using the ability to see those things to predict other things in a way that can be isolated from fuzzy confirmation bias

[10:51] Bendini: like I can very much believe ziz's blog is relatable and intuitive to you

[10:52] Bendini: and you have to do less interpretive labour to get a true insight from it

[10:53] Bendini: but the thing I'm pointing at as ramblings is seperate from that

[10:58] promethea: would it make sense if I rephrased it as "less cognitive filtering"? being able to see more signal in noise, especially where the signals are something you aren't supposed to be seeing for some reason or another, but at the cost that you're more likely to see signals where there is only noise

[11:02] Bendini: that makes sense

[11:03] Bendini: but it assumes that all people who don't do the eldrich thing can't go down the abstraction ladder

[11:04] promethea:

can't go down the abstraction ladder

can you elaborate?

[11:04] Bendini: what is salient to someone isn't completely a choice

[11:05] Bendini: but what you notice is based on what you've learned is useful to pay attention to

[11:07] Bendini: I could say something about forests leaves and trees

[11:07] Bendini: but it would be a bit cliche

[11:08] Bendini: something that might sink in would be more like someone paying attention to what is going on at the binary level as bits are moving between the hard drive memory and cpu

[11:09] Bendini: yes, it is useful to know what is going on so you understand other things

[11:10] Bendini: but hyperfixating on that while you are writing code on a much higher level of abstraction

[11:10] Bendini: in a sense, you are "seeing things that others have been trained not to see"

[11:10] Bendini: or don't understand

[11:10] Bendini: but doing that on a frame by frame level rather than an intutive "you know what's up" kinda level

[11:11] Bendini: is going to result in glaring errors from the stuff you aren't paying enough attention to

[11:15] promethea: it's not autism except possibly to the degree that autism weakens one's priors

[11:16] Bendini: agree, there are plenty of basic bitch autists

[11:17] Bendini: but like, the autistic catgirl cluster

[11:18] Bendini: it is a recurring pattern that some of them obsess over social reality in the way ziz does, yet keep getting into abusive relationships which were predictable from the outset

[11:18] Bendini: which idk, maybe this is a bit of a basic bitch take here

[11:19] Bendini: but this seems like the opposite of what should happen if they had reached the higher plane of knowledge that cannot be explained in words

[11:20] promethea: I'm not expecting all men to be able to do twenty pull-ups just because testosterone improves upper body strength

[11:22] promethea: the "eldritch" neurotype might also be called "psychoticism" but in the sense of a personality trait like extroversion and not in the sense of mental illness

[11:22] Bendini: no, but if those men claim to be much stronger because they have the magical testosterone elixir

[11:22] Bendini: and they keep getting beaten up by 5ft anorexic girls

[11:23] Bendini: at what point do you say "no, you do not have the thing you claim to have"

[11:30] promethea: no what I've been trying to say is that there appears to be a neurotype-level difference in how people process some types of information with predictable (in terms of not requiring loads of epicycles) upsides (having an easier time making accurate models where they contradict consensus reality) and downsides (having an easier time making inaccurate models where they contradict consensus reality)

[11:30] Bendini: the psychotiticism framing does help explain part of it

[11:31] Bendini: but that feels like the motte

[11:31] Bendini: it's the bailey I have trouble with

[11:31] promethea: I can't comment on the precise situation with the Bay catgirls because I'm not familiar enough with it to feel comfortable making non-obvious inferences

[11:33] Bendini: okay

[11:33] Bendini: I wonder how my experiences with psychedelics map into this though

[11:34] promethea: a bit of a shitpost-y formulation might be that high psychoticism-as-a-personality-trait is like having the safety guards off the [insert power tool that best fits the analogy] of your mind; it makes it easier to make some cuts that you'd otherwise struggle with, but it also makes it easier to cut things you wouldn't actually want to cut like yourself

[11:34] promethea: psychedelics would be expected to increase psychoticism-as-a-personality-trait

[11:35] Bendini: you'd expect them to do it while on them though

[11:35] promethea: both temporarily (very strongly) and permanently (from what it seems)

[11:35] Bendini: I seem to get neither in some important ways

[11:36] Bendini: like certain kinds of art and music

[11:36] Bendini: it was a sanity check of sorts

[11:37] promethea: (this also fits with my experience that when my dopamine levels are increased I get better at the thinks but also more likely to be overconfidently wrong, and that most antipsychotics are dopamine antagonists, etc.)

[11:38] Bendini: if I cannot see mediocre art as anything more than mediocre art while I'm hallucinating, it really isn't a case of me not being open to it

[11:39] Bendini: it's a case of wine in expensive bottles

[11:40] Bendini: I do think I have had some changes though

[11:40] Bendini: more sympathy to points of view people cannot express verbally

[11:46] promethea: I don't think "finding deep meaning in mediocre art" is any kind of a necessary characteristic of increased PAAPT (psychoticism-as-a-you-know-what), especially given that "mediocre art actually has deep meaning when on drugs" is the social reality

[13:28] Bendini: I mean more the ability to be open minded and see the beauty in things

[13:28] Bendini: because I could totally see the beauty of a brick wall

[13:28] Bendini: just some girl showed me her pretty mediocre drawings

[13:29] Bendini: and I was pretty speechless because the mediocrity was the salient characteristic

[13:30] Bendini: I find it suspends judgement for a longer period

[13:31] Bendini: but when my mind speaks out to me my concience is much louder

[13:32] Bendini: this does not seem to be the standard reaction to psychadelics

[13:32] Bendini: the basic bitch lurks deep in my lizard brain

(dont agree with all of promethea's characterization of the phenomena; but its clearly seeded from looking at the same phenomena that i am. bendini does not get whats going on at all here.)

ive referenced leveraging this to do what seems impossible or unpredictable to normies as creepy transfem mind powers. then people are like 'saraaah ccc somni said trans women have creepy mind powers thats crazy talk right?' and sarah c's like 'well yes its true trans women have a high iq'.

but this is kind of eliding over different kinds of intelligence as neurotypes and collapsing it all into "iq". transfems and ashkies arent just generically "intelligent" theres specific neurotypes behind the inteligence. like for ashkies the sort of things that get recorded in metrics are high "verbal" iq and "math" iq and average "spatial" iq. thats a specífic signature.

see: http://web.mit.edu/fustflum/documents/papers/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf

"high intelligence" can look like hyperlexia and it can also look like dissociative mind powers that let people see through the matrix and be unnervingly good at reasoning over embeddings of yourself.

like as intelligence increases, general capacity at solving problems increases. but maybe you shunt symbols instead of rotate objects to solves a problem. which affects what kinds of problems you can easily solve, given some are more amiable to one approach over another. there are many instances where visual proofs without words are much shorter than doing lots of algebra and vice-versa.

these specificities allow high-inteligence subpopulations to collude within neuroclades along these lines of similarity. downstream of this is that a lot of ppl accuse both jews and transfems of conspiracy and being "friends" with each other when a lot of mutual information comes from neurotype similarity not meeting and deciding on a plan. (thats not to say, you know, that there are never meetings about how to take over the multiverse...)

its amusing how like transfems will talk with each other about stuff and then ppl will be like "arghh!!! my eyes! this writing is painful static! its an infohazard!! its a glitch in the matrix!! AIEEEEGYRGHLSMERGLEGLunk pshhhur" and then say they dont understand what you are saying but it probably means you are a creepy violent misogynistic deeply sick male who is experiencing a psychotic break or something. give me tokens of submission to prove me wrong. if you were really prosocial youd drop this act right now and "act like a human".

part of the reason im writing this is reading things like:

<<promethea: gotta love how nobody can quite agree exactly how the people involved are Bad and Evil but people are nonetheless confident that they are schizophrenic/narcissistic/abusers/violent and must be confined and put on chemical mind control>>

has a healing quality. like i independently derived this. people keep trying to erase these simple shapes of how things fit together. try to destroy peoples ability to build common knowledge and talk with each other. the authoritarians dont usually try to give good excuses about why they pretend its wrong besides saying "its absurd". when you are in a prison planet surrounded mostly by people who have decided to be cops or submit to them, reading this is like:

https://youtu.be/DSTknzzBT9Y

you have to fractally reason through warpy things like people distantly noting "patient appears to be suffering from delusions of persecution'. and people trying to tell you that you are psychotic when like hi im writing this and not "psychotic". and you dont even have the social reality of people doing actual info-processing and at the end saying "well yeah its pretty obvious you arent suffering from a psychotic break, weird that anyone would claim that".

what you have is people giving you strange looks and acting like what youve written is a tear in the fabric of reality releasing trillions of shrill screams from a place beyond time.

its not because they dont understand, its because they have chosen not to. with different social groups of humans, different things elicit this response. like in a plural server i joined i talked about maybe there could be something in between being plural and being a singlet and they acted like id spoken static until someone said "oh thats [short handle for this concept]" and then everyone relaxed and stopped acting as if they couldnt understand what i was saying because there was no longer any local social threat to dynamically processing this information in front of other humans. they learned from the exclaimer that it was a Thing in their culture.

when people cant anticipate a priori where dynamically processing information in front of a lot of people will land them wrt the local overton window, as a solution they will just refuse to do this. one way to refuse to do this is to say "im sorry i dont understand what you are saying its like painful static. ack! stop trying to explain i dont want to understand it might turn me evil or something!!" which is an accurate assessment if they were coerced into using the words good and evil to mean alignment and disalignment with local social consensus respectively.

like the strategy of people who want to contain those floricdly hemorrhaging eldritch knowledge all over the place is to have a constarnt investment of authoritarian power to suppress this:

<<Reject invest-y power. Some kinds of power increase your freedom. Some other kinds require an ongoing investment of your time and energy, and explode if you fail to provide it. The second kind binds you, and ultimately forces you to give up your values. The second kind is also easier, and you'll be tempted all the time.>>

https://squirrelinhell.blogspot.com/2018/01/superhuman-meta-process.html

unlike true things which will keep reforming and can be lazily evaluated from looking around you with no memory. you dont need as much energy poured into constantly refreshing the cache of who you are supposed to pretend is having a psychotic break.

the authoritarian strat loses out in the long term against anarchist cooperation between agents that have learned enough to be able to consistently exploit their knowledge of Dread Horrors of the Abyss. who no longer need to dodge bullets.

[impracticaldemon]

What's your opinion on heichi and okichi?

Thank you for asking, Anon-san! (I’d actually been thinking about these two pairings recently).  I’ve now rewritten my answer for HeiChi four times - in between drafting my new Teachings of Demons chapter - which is why I’m a few days late responding.  Basically, I have mixed feelings about both OkiChi and HeiChi, but for totally different reasons.  The whole response needs to be cut down more, but alas, I’m out of time! Gomenasai.

Standard disclaimer:  I truly don’t mind other opinions/views on pairings, unless they’re hurtful or disrespectful.  Different people like different things, and I’m good with that.  I’ve written solid stories for all the original Hakuouki characters, and that’s how I show my belief that all the characters and pairings have value.

OkiChi:  

Summary ~ I still don’t really ship OkiChi, because I struggle a lot with the threats and put-downs early to mid story, and because I think Souji is too emotionally invested in Kondou to be a good partner for Chizuru.  The power imbalance is especially problematic in this route, because Souji deliberately points out Chizuru’s weaknesses on several occasions (for reasons - he’s a complicated guy - but still, not cool). That said, OkiChi makes for an interesting and dramatic relationship and story, and the second half of the route is rather lovely, as well as moving. A pairing where Chizuru has to provide a ton of affection/reassurance just to create the relationship - but the upside is high.  Hakuouki Shinkai (KW & EB) does a better job of providing a transition/basis for Chizuru going from “I’m terrified of him” to “I love him”.

HeiChi:

Summary ~ Objectively, I see this as a cute ship, with a number of things going for it; that said, HeiChi doesn’t resonate with me personally.  I like Heisuke, and I like Chizuru, but… I don’t feel the romantic chemistry. That’s probably on me, but it’s not that I haven’t thought about it.  I just think Heisuke is more complicated than he appears.  His gorgeous sunshine smile hides pain and indecisiveness.

Pros:  Heisuke is kind to Chizuru almost from the start, he’s friendly (she needs that so much!), the power imbalance is much less, and he likes her a lot. They have more in common than the others.  He clearly matures over the route. There is open love, trust, and support later in the route, and it’s very sweet.  Cons:  Heisuke has a lot of growing up to do, and while he’s very sincere, he’s also very self-focused (for perfectly normal reasons). His choice to go with Itou always struck me as very telling. Totally different from OkiChi, but still has a real turning point mid-game. There’s a lot going on with Heisuke, much of which conflicts with having a real awareness of Chizuru until much later (and only after being forced out of his own head a little).   

[More discussion of both pairings below the cut]

My subjective opinion on OkiChi (i.e., how I react personally) is far less negative than it once was.  Part of the change is getting to know so many interesting and well-spoken people who love both Souji and OkiChi (waves ♥), and part of it is that Kyoto Winds provided a slightly softer take on the initial relationship.  I can write OkiChi, it just means I have to make an effort with my head-space to do it justice.

For me, OkiChi stands or falls by whether you find Souji, and Souji’s brand of teasing, to be attractive.  It doesn’t work for me, because although I can see that some of what Souji does stems from genuine vulnerability - or just a sense of fun - I personally react badly to teasing of almost any kind from somebody in such an unassailable position of power. When part of that teasing involves threats of bodily harm, I kind of check out.  

I’m also uncomfortable with OkiChi because Souji uses put-downs that add to Chizuru’s already significant insecurity about being a burden - he tells her to eat up “even though she’s a freeloader” who does nothing to earn her food (a big deal at the time), and he calls her “useless” more than once.  This bothers me more than it does other people.  Bottom line:  Souji needs a lot of reassurance and no-demand affection, and Chizuru has to be very consistent and very forgiving. Her character is capable of it, and it’s not an uncommon otome set-up, but it’s not for me, and I’m not convinced that it’s good for Chizuru (in the short to medium term).

My objective opinion is that the initial part of the relationship is still highly problematic (for the reasons given above), but I can see it happening, as long as you assume a significant romantic and physical attraction on the part of Chizuru to Souji, despite his behaviour (which she describes as frightening).  Once Souji starts to trust Chizuru - which is a realistically slow process, but happens reasonably early on an unconscious level - he finally starts to see her more as a person than as a threat.  Eventually, he becomes genuinely devoted to her, even to the point of screwing up by not killing Kaoru when he first has the chance (with horrible results, but it shows a massive shift on Souji’s part in terms of how much he cares about Chizuru’s happiness).  

I also agree with those who’ve noted that Chizuru is tremendously important to Souji / Souji’s story.  His bad endings are very bad, and all too believable; Chizuru’s uncompromising, steady-as-a-rock affection and belief in Souji’s importance and good character are pretty much all Souji has to go on after Kondou-san dies. It makes the route rather different than the others, because Souji abandons the Shinsengumi completely at that point (after punching Hijikata, ofc), and makes Chizuru the focus of his actions and future plans. 

Things that make Chizuru’s initial (and necessary) early crush work for me:  (1) Souji is unusually attractive in a tall, well-built, emerald-eyed way, and has the classic “bad boy” charm and mischievous sense of fun; (2) Souji is an emotional guy, and I headcanon Chizuru as highly empathic - consequently, Chizuru is able to sense his carefully-hidden wounds when most don’t - this gives her the impetus to keep trying to reach out to him in the face of death threats, put-downs, and rejection; (3) Souji is interesting, and Chizuru is shown to have a lot of curiosity; (4) Chizuru is a loyal little soul, and admires loyalty - Souji’s loyalty to the Kondou-san would go a long way with her; (5) Chizuru notices the things Souji does that don’t entirely align with his “kill you any day now” rhetoric - including saving her life when she first goes on patrol with him.

So:  I don’t ship OkiChi, but I mind it less now, and have some solid strengths to build on when writing.

Assuming you’re still reading… >_

HeiChi:

I have oddly mixed feelings about HeiChi.  I say “oddly”, because this should be an obvious (i.e., good) ship, even aside from being a canon / main route.  Short answer:  HeiChi makes a lot of sense to me, and Heisuke’s a good guy, but I think this pairing is more complex and maybe a bit less perfect than it appears (which is pretty human).  It’s not a personal favourite (subjectively), but they’re very sweet. ♥

Longer answer:

Heisuke is very taken with Chizuru early on, and he is the closest to her in age. [Saitō and Heisuke are both 19, but Saitō gives every impression of being at least a couple of years older.]  Among the positives: Heisuke comes across as the cheerful one of the bunch, and he definitely has the most brilliant smile; he also conveys a sense of innocence and optimism.  He helps Chizuru to feel less lonely.  Main points:  Heisuke treats Chizuru well, and looks out for her; he enjoys and seeks out her company; there is noticeably less of a power imbalance between them than with the others.  Heisuke is the one who most obviously cares about protecting Chizuru’s innocence (something which he also tried to do for Ibuki Ryunosuke).

So why am I ambivalent?

[Time passes while Imp tries to write and rewrite this part of her answer.]

… Okay, here’s what I’ve got:

Heisuke lives a lot inside his head, for all that he appears to be action-oriented.  He’s outwardly cheerful, but inwardly trying desperately to makes sense of his life, his feelings, and his ambitions.  He can be very sweet and generous, but also very inward-looking and at times melodramatic.  

Despite having some kind of romantic or affectionate feelings for Chizuru early on, Heisuke chooses to leave the Shinsengumi with Itou on a permanent basis roughly two years after Chizuru arrives.  While he regrets leaving Chizuru, that regret feels very muted to me. Heisuke’s conversation with Chizuru before he leaves is mostly about himself and what he’s doing; it reflects his main preoccupation, which boils down to figuring out what’s important to him through the exercise of his own judgment.  

I think the game has it right - that’s where he’s at, and staying with the Shinsengumi would be a mistake.  He needs to get away from the two older “brothers” who tend not to take him seriously, and “parent” Hijikata, who ends up scolding a lot, and truly doesn’t have time to listen to his inward struggles.  Heisuke only comes back to the Shinsengumi under adverse circumstances (even though he’s disenchanted with Itou after a while, he stays loyal to his choice until the next-to-last minute), and he subsequently becomes preoccupied with being a “monster”. My point is that there isn’t a lot of room for him to focus on Chizuru in there.  He thinks she’s cute, and nice, and should be treated better; he worries about her, and still wants to be with her and give her what comfort he can.  But his ability to fully perceive what she’s dealing with is restricted.

Ultimately, Chizuru is the one to save Heisuke, by dragging him out of his fugue and forcing him to pay attention to things outside his developing self-loathing.  She slaps him because he keeps trying to make decisions for her about how she feels, and what’s best for her, and he’s still not seeing the full/real Chizuru.  After that, Heisuke begins to be more thoughtful (not just affectionate), and agrees to lean on Chizuru more, which is good for both of them.  Chizuru makes sure that Heisuke understands that to her he’s an important person, and somebody she relies on. 

Final verdict:  It’s a cute ship, with lots of potential to be very loving. It doesn’t have serious negatives, although for me it lacks something romantically for quite a long time.  Heisuke struggles with a lot of insecurity, and tends to alternate between looking inward for “the answers”, and looking outward for validation. That makes him easy for many of us to relate to, but puts a lot of burden on Chizuru.  Even after all of this, I don’t know what part of my reaction to HeiChi is personal bias/preferences, and what part is based on objective analysis.  I do know that it’s both.

To those who have come this far, thank you for reading!  I hope that I didn’t disappoint too many of you with my rambling.  In my defense, my inability to keep things simple means I can write my stories from different perspectives and keep them consistent!

~ Imp

[zippdementia]

Part 81 Alignment May Vary: Mirrors of the Abyss (Pissed Off Librarian)

The next part of our adventure is taken from Mirrors of the Abyss, by Ryan Durney. I highly recommend it as a rare high level adventure. Very much worth a purchase. I will be covering huge aspects of it and it will not be spoiler-free, though it is a random enough adventure that there is PLENTY we won’t see on this playthrough and some additional material for our own story. Art is taken directly from the module and is illustrated by Ryan Durney. The purpose in using it here is to show off how beautiful and professional the product is, not to claim such images as our own. I sincerely hope it inspires you to purchase the product!

Chamber 12: Her Library

The third chamber the players end up in is a library. It has multiple challenges but only one is absolutely mandatory and that is finding the “key” to escaping the room. Is it buried in the stacks of books here? Is it hidden among the artifacts laid out on the ground floor? Or is it forgotten on the third floor, where crates of ancient relics and do-nothing items are carelessly piled up on top of each other?

I’m not going to say, because my players haven’t found the way out yet in our game.

An optional challenge here awaits them at the librarian’s desk, where an attractive woman is reading and writing something in a huge journal on the desk in front of her. While Carrick, Remus, and Milosh go to check out a huge painting of the entrance to the Tomb of Horrors that is on display in the south of the room, Daymos and Imoaza go to greet the librarian.

Daymos approached the woman and gave her a wide smile. “Hello! Perhaps you could tell us where we are?”

The woman looked up and didn’t smile back. “Name and layer of the Abyss?”

“Uuuh, you mean where we are now? Vulgarea, the---”

“No, of course not where we are now. I need to know where you come from. Which layer? What is your lordly name?”

Daymos briefly looked over his shoulder at Imoaza for assistance but she just stared straight ahead. He swallowed and turned back.

“I come from between layers, from the realm of Ia’fret. I am the new lord of his domain.” It wasn’t too much of a lie, Daymos did consider himself the master of that realm. But would this being think that marked him as a proven Demon Lord?

The dice rolled across the table and... no, even with Daymos having advantage on the roll, she did not think that this qualified him as a Demon Lord. The woman rose up from the desk, rose up to seven or eight feet tall, and now they could see that her lower body merged into that of a massive serpent.

“She’s a Marilith!” Daymos hissed to Imoaza, “and a powerful one at that! Possibly a general of the Abyss, maybe one of Shaktari’s from the 531st layer.”

“That’s nice,” Imoaza said. “Do you know how to defeat her? The Weave is strong about her. She’ll be immune to our elemental magic!”

“Then it’s a good thing I don’t rely on such childish magic,” Daymos said. “Just don’t stay close, those blades will tear you apart!”

The Mar1ilith stretched out six arms, four of which she had tucked behind her back before. They grabbed six blades off the wall behind her and her tail flicked backwards to grab a seventh. Then she smiled at last and said, “Let’s see if I still know how to use these.” She whistled and suddenly a swarm of three dozen quasits, impish looking creatures wearing maid outfits and wielding tiny brooms, appeared on the stairs and began chittering excitedly.

“It’s been a while since we’ve had some fun,” the Marilith said. “Let’s smash open those artifacts and show them their power, dies.”

This combat is a cool one, and a deadly one. The Quasits are interested in moving around the room and picking up players, then chucking them into different artifacts, most of which have some negative effect associated with touching it. They also can turn invisible as a free action when they move, basically guaranteeing them advantage on their first hit each turn. They auto-grapple if they hit, which then lets them use their second attack to hurl a player at an artifact.

The Marilith is a powerhouse at close range, able to pull off 4 attacks each turn, plus a 5th with her tail as a reaction that also throws players around like the Quasits. She has advantage on saving against magical effects and has an automatic and FREE chance to block all melee strikes aimed at her, even when blinded or restrained! She is immune to basic elemental damage (fire, ice, lightning) and non-magical damage. Her damage isn’t great (2d8 for each successful strike, no bonus) but she hits pretty easily and each time she hits a random effect is triggered, indicating which of her seven legendary swords she is striking with. None of these are good: probably the most banal heal her for a little damage or force the target to try and block the next attack aimed at her. One steals items. The nastiest add a ton of damage, all but guarantee a critical strike, throw the players around, or let the sword rise up and attack on its own next turn, adding a FIFTH attack to her already deadly arsenal. Oh, and she can move 45 feet on her turn AND teleport up to 100 feet as a free action. So you can’t escape her.

So this could be a TPK, if the players aren’t prepared. Or it could be a very fun, tactical fight, if they are.

In one of my recent Adventurous Appetizer episodes I talked about how a good fight is one in which the players understand their options. I like to take my own advice (that way, I know at least SOMEONE does) and I recognize that this fight, what with all the crazy abilities and advantages the Marilith and Quasits have, could be a very frustrating one if the players aren’t aware of their options or the situation. So I give them some information. First of all, I warn them that this creature is melee proficient, just driving home something that would be obvious to their characters but maybe not to us playing with figurines on Roll20. Don’t rush this creature, or do so at your own peril!

Then I turn to all of the players and ask them if they have any abilities they want to use to try and determine good tactics here or get more information. Carrick and Milosh play their characters well, saying they wouldn’t know anything here. I give them two fate points, bonus points they can apply to their rolls to make them better, for roleplaying appropriately. Daymos has demon lore from being a hunter of demons these last few decades and so I let him roll to determine that the Marilith is a high ranking one and is probably going to have a lot of abilities normal monsters would not (this sets them up not to be taken off guard when she starts blocking all over the place). Lastly, I let Imoaza roll arcana to see if she can detect the Weave around the Marilith, which she succeeds at, and thus gets to tell the party the Marilith is immune to basic elemental damage, potentially saving them a wasted turn trying to attack her that way.

Not only does this get everyone prepped for the fight, but it also lets them play their characters and use skills that further develop their personalities and strengths.

And with that, we leap into the fight!

Fighting the Marilith General

I think this fight goes really well. The Marilith and her Quasits roll really high on Initiative, but the Marilith decides to spend the first turn trying to charm Imoaza with a high level charm spell instead of attacking. She wants Imoaza to tell her her name, which if successful will lead to something special I’ve added to this fight. I’ve taken the Marilith character and, based on her described bookishness, decided to add in some naming magic, in particular one spell that will send Imoaza, er, somewhere else for the length of this battle, if only she can get her true name. As a bonus, the spell is high enough level she can try to charm Daymos as well, who is next to Imoaza. But both attempts fail. The Marilith could pull away at this point, but she wants the players to close in and attack her at melee range, so she waits here to see what they will do, confident in her high movement abilities to chase them down if they run. The players play this smart, though, and back away, using their long range spells and actually achieving quite a bit of damage. And so on the second round, the Marilith unleashes her full force.

There’s some rounds of trading blows that I won’t go into details about, but I will cover the basics. The Marilith and the Quasits don’t get great rolls, so their effectiveness is limited. The Quasits are at least able to focus on Imoaza and drive her away from participating much in the combat, ending up tossing her in a artifact of acid (taken from the Temple of Elemental Evil). The Marilith ends up rolling the same sword over and over and it is one of the less deadly ones: the one that forces players to try and block attacks for her. Because my players are pretty fast and the save is a dexterity save, they end up being able to dodge out of the way after being compelled to take hits for her. The one time it would be very useful is when Carrick fails a roll and is about to block a magical strike from Imoaza using Crown of Stars that would be 5d12 damage, but an inspiration reroll and a fate point saves him and deals some good damage to the Marilith (I’m admittedly a little sad about this, I love when plans turn to shenanigans!)

The big turning point is when Daymos taps into some of his most powerful magic and whips out Prismatic Ray. It’s a gamble: some of the rays do damage the Marilith is immune to. But it pays off when he rolls the blindness function, which severely limits the Marilith’s ability to target appropriately and hit a target for a turn. She calls out to her Quasits to point her to a target, but they can’t spot Daymos, so they aim her at Milosh instead. Because of her disadvantage, she ends up missing almost all of her attacks against him and she can’t use teleport because she can’t see! 

A lot of stuff happens when she recovers from this. She targets Milosh and Carrick, while her Quasits go to distract Daymos. And in targeting Milosh she finally lands a good strike with her tail, cutting him and throwing him into the painting of the Tomb of Horrors, which sucks him inside...

Milosh finds himself on the top of a hill which is turning into an avalanche of stone and rubble, bearing him down towards a mouth constructed roughly of black stone in the ground beneath him, the smiling visage that marks the entrance to the Tomb of Horrors. The mouth grins then horrifically begins to move, opening to reveal a pit in the earth made of pure darkness. Milosh tumbles towards this hole of annihilation...

Meanwhile, with one party member out of the way, the Marilith prepares to unleash all of her strikes on Carrick and hopefully remove him from combat. But rather than flee her, Carrick does the brave thing and leaps directly at her, amazingly dodging her counterstrikes, getting underneath her insane defenses, and going to town on her, inflicting two massive hits that take her to the point where she decides to flee. Only one player will get the chance to go before she disappears by teleporting away from the arena, and that player is currently stuck in a painting...

Milosh was falling and he wasn’t very happy about that. Thinking fast, he turned his arm into the grappling hook feature and fired to the side, catching a piece of huge rubble. He then leaped and fired again. Almost as if he were willing it to happen, another chunk of rubble flew from the hilltop and gave him a platform, then another, and another, until Milosh was leaping up a set of improvised stairs, each step collapsing underneath him as he ran and leaped and reached for something that seemed just beyond his reach... and then he was back, back in the world of Vulgarea, emerging from the painting to see the hissing serpent tracing a pattern in the air. Something magical, for sure, and he didn’t give her time to finish. Loading his drill, he pressed forward and slammed into her side. She shrieked in pain and rage and turned to slice at him, at which point he rolled to the side, underneath the swinging of three blades. He tried to strike again, but was blocked by the tail sword. He then took a risk: he grabbed the tail, let it lift him up, and let go to land on the Marilith’s undefended side. Then he drove his drill into her back and activated it. Flesh and blood and bone ground together and sprayed around him and the Marilith screamed as her Abyssal form was decimated and her soul shunted back into the long chain of reincarnation that it would take for her to regain her form, if ever she actually did. Her last action was to reach out towards her distant desk on which her thick book still lay.

Milosh gets a bonus to his gun arm after this fight by absorbing the data from the Marilith’s wild blocks and swings. His gun arm comes equipped with its own spell slots and abilities that cost a certain number of slots. This ability costs 2 and creates a wall of blades around him that greatly boosts his AC (+1 for each of the swords, and there are four of them) and can harm creatures that fail their melee attacks against him. Failed strikes by either melee or ranged remove a blade (and a +1 to the AC) and Milosh can also grab a blade and use it as a bonus attack. Pretty cool (if I do say so myself). His gun arm slots recover after a short rest.

The great thing about this fight is that I think it was a legitimate challenge. The players don’t take a ton of damage and Remus heals them up afterwards (he is able to access some of his Paladin magic, though it is very limited). But the risk was there: the challenge came from having to think smart and dip into their wide repertoire of abilities and magic spells. Which is how it should be at high level: you have lots of options, you need to be given opportunities to use them! Most importantly, I feel like everyone had a chance to shine and do something cool, whether it was Carrick getting to go toe-to-toe with the Marilith and succeed, or Milosh cutting her down in a glorious final moment (which was very close: he had to use an inspiration to reroll that final melee attack, avoid her responsive block, and then do enough damage to kill her... he did literally JUST enough).

With the Marilith dead, the swords are the players’ to claim (we’ll cover those in a later session, the players don’t have time to examine their abilities just now). The Quasits flee and now the real challenge is made clear to them...

Esheballa’s Taunt

The fox statue made a grinding sound of stone snapping as it twisted its features into a canine grin and began to speak: “There is only one way out of this chamber and you have limited time to find it. I hope you don’t mind if I remove your ability to breath...” and with that, as the statue’s laughter slowly strained the limits of the stone and ripped apart its face, pussy blood-red and green liquid began to ooze from the statue’s teats, poised over the laughing, hungry statues of the babies feeding there. The ooze hit them and sizzled and the air began to smell acrid...

The first obstacle here was facing the Marilith. The fight was avoidable, but they fought and won, so we go onto the second part of this puzzle: finding a way out. I’ve added to this based on the players’ actions in previous sessions. For when Imoaza goes to examine the book the Marilith pointed at, the one on her desk, she finds a set of instructions there for entering the book, where the Marilith has been keeping victims trapped using their true names. And the last name on the list...

“Shit,” Imoaza says, showing the others. “It’s Hecate.”

Next time, it’s all about Not Waking the Demi Lich, in part 3 of Mirrors of the Abyss.

[dragon-above]

Spider Lords - the Veiled Fang

In the Age of Demons, before the Rajahs fell to the power of the dragons, Dharvos, a Spider Lord of secrets and deception, was loyal to the wyrms. However, Dharvos was a cunning and manipulative spy, and infiltrated the ranks of the rakshasa lords. Respected as a powerful assassin, Dharvos easily siphoned demonic secrets to the dragons. When the Age of Demons ended and the dragons turned on the Spider Lords, Dharvos fled to Khorvaire, building a lair in the Seawall Mountains of what is now southern Breland. For centuries he waited, watching as the great empire of the giants rose and fell. Soon the next great empire of Eberron established itself, and Dharvos recognised this time as an opportunity to re-establish his power. As the Empire of Dhakaan grew, Dharvos relocated to the great metropolis of Ja’shaarat, where be began to weave his web of intrigue. The great spider lord soon gained a foothold in the ever growing Shaarat’khesh, the Silent Blades. Just as Dharvos’ subtle power among the goblinoids had grown to rival those of the great generals, the Daelkyr came, and his achievements were burnt to ashes. Dharvos did not reveal himself by opposing the aberrations of Xoriat. Instead, he laid low until the great conflict was resolved. Ever patient, the spider lord maintained his home in the depths of Duur’Shaarat until the human settlers claimed the territory and began to raise the towers that would eventually become the great metropolis of Sharn. The next event to capture the attention of Dharvos came one and a half thousand years ago, the War of the Mark. As with the other Lords of False Presage, Dharvos despises the Prophecy, and the emergence of the dragonmarks proved its strength. When the Lady of Plague stood strong against the Dragonmarked Houses, Dharvos saw the aberrant dragonmarks as a sign of a weak, failing Prophecy. Devoting much of his time to research into these arcane marks via his followers, Dharvos began to unlock the secrets of aberrant and pure dragonmarks alike. The differences between the aberrant and pure marks have Dhavros fascinated, and he has begun to capture vulnerable excoriates for his studies. To this day Dharvos continues his research, and anonymously channels wealth to the mysterious House Tarkanan. To provide him with information and assets, Dharvos created a secret guild of assassins and spies known as the Veiled Fang. Throughout its time on Khorvaire, the Veiled Fang has integrated itself into hundreds of organizations across the continent. Though its headquarters are in Sharn, the Veiled Fang is an international power with subtle motives. The structure of the Veiled Fang is simple. Dharvos is the undeniable leader of the organization, with a triumvirate of generals beneath him leading projects within different organizations. These four beings, as far as Dharvos knows, are the only creatures that know the true nature of the Veiled Fang. Beneath the triumvirate begins the web of intrigue. The agents commanded by the triumvirate believe themselves to be members of other organizations, from the Order of the Emerald Claw to the Tyrants. Some of these underlings may even be members of the true organization as well, unknowingly serving two masters. The current triumvirate includes Yin (doppelganger rogue 5/assassin 2), recently favoured for its integration into the ever elusive House Thuranni, and its bitter rival Jekka (female aranea illusionist 4/ rogue 3), chosen after revealing a hole in the Aurum’s tight security. The third member’s identity remains a mystery even to Jekka and Yin. When interacting with organizations or even single creatures, Dharvos prefers to use the many arms of the Veiled Fang than his own potent abilities. Having taken advantage of the spilt within House Phiarlan to acquire agents within House Thuranni, the spider lord has now infiltrated almost every Dragonmarked House, and it is likely that Dharvos will use the perceived power and safety of these organizations to contact individuals. Because of his reliance on the organizations of Khorvaire, the vast majority of Dharvos’ minions, indirect or otherwise, are humanoids or shapeshifters. Dharvos, the Veiled Fang Spider Lord Rogue 5 / Assassin 4 Huge Magical Beast Hit Dice: 16d10+48 plus 9d6+27 (194 hp) Initiative: +9 (+5 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative) Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 30 ft. (6 squares) Armour Class: 19 (-2 size, +5 Dex, +6 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 19 Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+39 Attack: Bite +29 melee (2d6+13 plus poison) Full Attack: Bite +29 melee (2d6+13 plus poison) Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Poison, web, minions, hypnosis, sneak attack +5d6, spell-like abilities, spells, death attack Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., damage reduction 10/targath, evasion, improved uncanny dodge, low-light vision, tremorsense, nondetection, poison use, spell resistance 17, trapfinding, trap sense +1, uncanny dodge, +2 save against poison Saves: Fort +15, Ref +25, Will +15 Abilities: Str 29, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 23, Wis 22, Cha 21 Skills: C Bluff +17, Diplomacy +33, Disguise +13, Gather Information +17, Hide +27, Intimidate +17, Listen +34, Move Silently +35, Search +18, Sense Motive +34, Spot +34 Feats: Die Hard, Dodge, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Spring Attack, Stealthy ========================================= Environment: Any Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 22 Treasure: Double Standard Alignment: Lawful Evil Dharvos speaks the language of the Spider Lords as well as Quori, Giant, Infernal and Draconic. Combat The White Spider prefers to fight from the shadows, using his spell-like abilities to conceal himself, then immobilizing his enemy with his web. He will then use either his poison or his hypnosis and remove the foe from his presence alive. The White Spider kills only when absolutely necessary, using its minions and evocations to be rid of the danger. Hypnosis (Su): A combination of the Spider Lord’s unusual language and subtle hypnotic patterns in its eyes allows it to seize the mind of weaker beings. This hypnosis is a full round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, and can affect all creatures within 30ft with up to half the HD of the Spider Lord. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 23 Will save or be affected as if by a charm monster spell. In addition, affected creatures with less than 6 HD are subject to a daze effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 21, initial and secondary damage 2d6 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based. Minions (Ex): Tiny spiders are attracted to the lair of the Spider Lord, and using a hypnotic language the Spider Lord can call these spiders to swarm against its foes. Three times per day as a standard action, a Spider Lord can call 2d6 spider swarms to fight for it. The swarms gather in areas chosen by the Spider Lord on the Spider Lord’s next turn, but cannot be more than 60 feet from it. The spider swarms fight to the death unless otherwise instructed by the Spider Lord. Web (Ex): The Spider Lord often waits in a web suspended above its lair, then lowers themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. The Spider Lord can also throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the Spider Lord. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check DC 21 or burst it with a Strength check DC 25. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus. The Spider Lord often creates sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 50 feet square. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has 14 hit points, and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—. The Spider Lord can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web. Nondetection (Sp): The Spider Lord is subject to a permanent nondetection effect as the spell, except that no checks are allowed to bypass the effect. Spell-like Abilities:At will – message; 3/day – invisibility, darkness; 1/day – prying eyes, sending. Caster level 16th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Trapfinding (Ex): Dharvos can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a DC higher than 20, can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps and bypass traps without disarming them. Evasion (Ex): Dharvos can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Trap Sense (Ex): Dharvos has an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving him a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Dharvos retains his Dexterity bonus to AC even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Dharvos cannot be flanked. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack Dharvos by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least thirteen rogue levels. Death Attack (Ex): If Dharvos studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (Dharvos’ choice). While studying the victim, Dharvos can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the Spider Lord or recognise him as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 20) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6+4 rounds. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once Dharvos has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the Spider Lord does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack. Poison Use (Ex): Assassins are trained in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade. Spells: Dharvos casts spells as a 4th level assassin. Typical Assassin Spells Known (5/3; save DC 16 + spell level): 1st—feather fall, ghost sound, obscuring mist, sleep; 2nd—darkness, invisibility, pass without trace.