#but there are definitely many more through both s1 and s2

[sage-is-in-fact-very-tired]

you know. you know I know a fair few of us headcanon c!sherbert with like. actual wings. that don't move like eyltra. and move like birb. and um. did you know, that bird wings can't fly great in the rain because the pockets between feathers that are normally filled with air that allow them to be light and allow them to fly get filled up with water and it severely weighs them down. did you know that it makes it harder to fly. did you know that through a good chunck of seasons 1 and 2 it was fucking raining. did you know that in high-stress situations sherbert had used their wings to get away quickly. did you know that that would be much harder with this headcanon. did you know that volatile visions can be made much angster upon this realization-

[vidavalor]

Near the end of S2, two plots from S1 are directly referenced, so they'll be fresh in our minds as clues to what is happening in the S2 finale. While different plots, they actually have something rather interesting in common that could hint at the reason why it is these two plots we need to remember.

The first storyline is Gabriel not knowing that he was dealing with Crowley and not Aziraphale during the body swap.

What's interesting about this reference is that it is specifically about the body swap plot from Gabriel's perspective. Whether he figured it out or not between the seasons is unknown but, by the end of S2, we now know that since Gabriel has his memories back, he can put together what Crowley told him and he definitely knows now. What's the point here?

Gabriel thought he knew who he was looking at in S1 but it took until the following season for him to be told he didn't.

Hmm... hold that thought while we look at the other referenced plot...

That's the bookshop fire.

Aziraphale refers to it directly when explaining to Nina about the fire in the shop being the reason why they now have so many fire extinguishers. The reference here, though, is that the one having greater difficulty dealing with the fire and who is the reason for the battery-operated candles and fire extinguishers is the one who saw it happen and that's Crowley.

This is where these two, referenced plots start to have something in common...

Crowley's confusion during and immediately after the fire is regarding who is responsible for it. He thinks Aziraphale dead because he can't sense him and the shop is ablaze, leading Crowley to think that it was likely demons at the behest of Satan who did this. He's not entirely sure but when we see him soon after, he's drunkenly recounting how he wound up getting involved with Lucifer, indicating that he thinks Satan took Aziraphale from him.

Unlike the Gabriel story with the body swap, this question is answered almost immediately for Crowley so the story can go forward for the rest of the season. Aziraphale appears to Crowley and explains that he was discorporated.

So, we have two plots from S1 directly referenced ahead of the end of S2-- and both of those plots come down to having the identity of someone backwards.

Gabriel thought he was looking at the angel Aziraphale, but it was really the demon Crowley. Crowley thought it was Satan who took Aziraphale and the bookshop from him, but it was really The Metatron.

Crowley. Thought it was Satan. Who took Aziraphale and the bookshop from him. But it was really The Metatron.

And Gabriel thought he had identified the being in front of him as an angel... but it was really a demon.

In the mirrored S2, those are some pretty big hints that the being identified as The Metatron who just took the bookshop and Aziraphale is really Satan.

There's also writers-stand-in character Furfur whose only contribution to the group scene is to remind the audience to remember a specific part of the Job minisode from back at the start of the season:

The bit where it was an example of Hell doing Heaven's punishing for them.

Furfur then also draws another paralleling line between Job and Aziraphale by saying Job was a lovely man Furfur never met, which is a dialogue callback to this bit in 1941:

The bit where Hell walked through the door.

Are you totally sure this is The Metatron?

Or is it more likely that Bildad had the season endgame foreshadowed for us nicely back at the start?

[iridescenttttttt]

This includes s5 spoilers!!

I think we as a fandom should talk more about how sun wukong has absolutely no self preservation, and how he has been self-sacrificial since season 1. Hi, my name is iridescent, and in this essay-

ok but in all seriousness, I have evidence from every season of him doing this, and I will be analyzing it and informing about it Meticulously.

I also have a couple of tangents about him protecting MK in here. I just like the detail of him always doing that, especially considering how he does it.

it wasn’t just season 5 where he was willing to sacrifice himself, season 5 was just the only season where it was outright blatantly stated that he was going to sacrifice himself.

(^Image taken from S1 EP9, Macaque)

this image in and of itself is fairly minor. Because we know he’s going to be okay. he is immortal, and compared to MK, an explosion most definitely will not do much, if anything, to him. and I’m sure he’s fully aware of this (which is probably part of the reason he shields MK with his body so much, there are SO many example of him doing this)

Still, even the fact his immediate instinct was to throw himself in harms way to protect MK is pretty sacrificial in and of itself. I’m 100% certain that even if it could hurt him, he would still protect MK like this.

(^ image taken from S2 EP10, this is the end)

Wukong here is visibly weakened and injured. It was stated early in season 3 that he was weak, and even at the end of season 2, we could tell. ESPECIALLY when he grabbed MK and escaped from LBD on his nimbus cloud. By the time they found their friends, it was deteriorating, and they quiet literally crash landed onto the ship.

But despite his obviously weakened state, he was still throwing himself in front of MK, protecting him from harm, and shielding him with his body. His first thought was to throw himself in harms way, and this time, there is a very real possibility that he probably can get injured! He’s weak, his powers are failing, there is no way he would have the energy to fight LBD. Not in the state he is in at this very moment, and MK isn’t, either. He knows this- I know he does, because instead of picking a fight, he grabs MK and runs. He even admits that he isn’t in any shape to face her. However, even though he knows he would hardly be able to put up a fight as it stands right now, he is still willing to throw himself in front of MK. (Which also directly supports what I said above! It does not matter if he can get hurt if not, he will still put himself in harms way to keep MK safe)

Similarly to above, he was fully willing to find and reforge the samadhi fire on his own, despite his weakened state- to keep the others out of harms way, because they are mortal and he is not. Still, even despite him being immortal, he’s trying to reforge the samadhi fire- one of the rare things that has the ability to actually hurt him. Wukong knows this, and he is still willing to do this alone. Even though he is obviously injured, and weakened, and there is a very real possibility the samadhi fire could kill him, he is willing to do this on his own. Because they are mortals- if the fire can kill him, then it can definitely kill them, too.

(^ Image taken from S3, EP1, on the run)

season 3 is, in my opinion, where his self-sacrificial tendencies and complete lack of self preservation becomes a lot more obvious. So, fair warning, season 3 is probably going to be a long one.

Wukong is fully willing to risk himself to get the map. And it isn’t like he doesn’t know the risks of forcing his way through the Barrie. Ne Zha even warns him, and says that if he forces his way through the barrier, they could both be destroyed. And honestly? If Wukong wasn’t, like, 7x immortal, there is a very real possibility that he would’ve been destroyed, then and there. And while, yeah, Ne Zha didn’t die, either, he also wasnt the one actively breaking through the barrier. I’m sure if Ne Zha was the one breaking through, he probably would’ve died. Even then, Wukong was severely weakened after this (as seen and talked about above!), he knew the risks and he still took them. He knew he could die, but if it meant saving the world and keeping MK and his friends safe? He would do it. And, again, even after being fully aware of his weakened state, he immediately ran to the protection of MK as soon as he realized he was in danger.

(^images taken from S3 EP10, The Samadhi Fire)

I’ve already talked about how often he is shown to use his body to protect MK from danger, but here, specifically, I want to mention be we are specifically shown a scene of him moving his arm to protect MK from danger. Especially considering the danger is the samadhi fire- something that can actually harm him. This is different from most other times he’s doing this, because this time, he can actually get hurt.

This is one of, in my opinion, one the most obvious examples of him being a self sacrificing idiot with very little self preservation (/aff)

his entire plan, from the very beginning, was to try and take the samadhi fire out of Mei (because he never wanted her to be harmed- he’s spent the entirety of season 2 and 3 trying to protect MK and his friends, he never one intentionally hurt them) and put it in himself. Think about that. The samadhi fire is something that can harm him- kill him, and he knows that. He knows that extremely well. His entire plan could lead to his death, and he’s aware of that. And the same thing goes for when he was getting the map in the first place- both times, he was fully aware that there is a possibility he could die from this. He doesn’t care, though. If it protects the people he cares about, he’s going to do it- even if he dies in the process.

once again, we are specifically shown a scene of him trying to protect MK. His immediate thought has always been to take the brunt of the fire, and keep MK from danger- I fully think, had there not been a shock factor to MK literally running straight in, he would have ran in after.

Again, in this scene he has no self preservation, and he is very self sacrificial. His entire plan from the very beginning hitched on having a weapon, something powerful enough to stop the lady bone demon, except that plan has failed, and now, there is no weapon. So his new solution? Stop LBD himself.

If he was truly confident he could beat her again, then why did he go looking for the samadhi fire, instead of going to immediately fight her and stop her? He’s desperate, he knows how bad the situation is, and he still isn’t sure if he can even beat her. He’s still willing to try, if it means protecting MK and his friends, and saving the world. He’s going into the fight. Alone. No backup, no plan, no samadhi fire. (And we know this goes wrong, too) He is fully aware of this! He knows he’s going into a fight he’s might not come out of. Everyone else knows this, too- Ne Zha even points out the chances of him surviving are slim.

(^ image taken from S4, EP1, familiar tales)

once again, his immediate reaction (even when being faced with his trauma) is to protect and save MK. He knows what the scroll is, and he knows what’s going to happen if he gets stuck inside of it- despite that, he still sacrifices himself to ensure MK doesn’t get stuck inside of the scroll. He lets himself get sucked into it. He is willing to face all of the mistakes he’s made and the trauma he’s endured to protect MK from having to go through the same.

WARNING YOU ALL AGAIN!!! S5 SPOILERS BEGIN NOW!!

Let’s all be honest here, they’re both lacking in the self preservation department. They are not lacking in the self sacrifice department, though, I’ll tell you that much! This entire fight, they are very blatant about how they are, quite literally, fighting over who gets to sacrifice themself. There isn’t much to say here that wouldn’t be stating the obvious- neither of them want eachother to sacrifice themselves, they both want to be the sacrifice.

TLDR: Sun Wukong has been self sacrificial and has had a disregard for his own preservation since we were introduced to him. This has only become more apparent as he grew closer to MK, and as his character has developed.

is all of this already very obvious? Mmmaybe???? I’m not too sure. Did I make a couple of reaches a couple of times? Mmmmmmmaaaaaybe. Is this an excuse to infodump and talk about sun wukong? Yeah. Am I sorry? No.

[genericpuff]

I was kind of curious: What do you think of Persephone's therapy scenes in episodes 160-161?

I personally liked them, but you and many other LO critics always seem to see things that totally flew over my head (I mean that in a positive way).

I think the idea behind them was fine, just the execution that felt really half-baked. Rachel doesn't like scenes to sit too long so the therapy scene, of course, wound up being rushed in the course of 2-3 episodes (meaning she had to have Persephone dump everything all at once) and while Persephone's dialogue is handled relatively well, the direction of the scene itself feels entirely mismanaged (which is both a side effect of Rachel's directionless writing and the fact that she clearly doesn't want to do more than one of these kinds of episodes so she needs to speedrun it).

TRIGGER WARNING: Discussion concerning sexual assault ahead!

Like, let's start with Persephone's intent in going to therapy. Wanting to pursue therapy doesn't just happen suddenly, there's usually a "trigger event" to make someone realize "I need help", whether it be hitting rock bottom or even just going "I feel like I don't have the skills or tools necessary to deal with what I'm dealing with, I need a professional opinion".

Despite Eros advising her to go to therapy all the way back in S1 to address her assault-

-she actually finally goes to therapy in S2 not to address the assault, but to address... how she feels insecure in comparison to Hera who she just found out Hades had a long-term affair with??? At least that's definitely the implication.

And then of course the therapy session itself segues immediately into "Persephone is a high achiever and it's because of her mom being overbearing" which Rachel doesn't connect at all to either the SA or her feeling insecure compared to Hera (which, by the way, barely even has anything to do with her, but she didn't - and still doesn't - have the emotional maturity or self-respect to realize that Hades is a serial cheater-)

That's where the first therapy episode cuts off, and then the next episode immediately opens with Persephone writing her entire backstory on a whiteboard, so we can assume time has passed and she's talked about everything from her childhood up until this point.

Then we get Chiron asking Persephone... what could go wrong if she leaves TGOEM??

Even though we never saw any of the actual sequence so it just feels like a question that's coming out of nowhere? Like did Persephone say during that schpeel that she wanted to leave TGOEM? Isn't that something we should have seen to connect these two trains of thought?

Ah, right, because we have to get into Hades. Because this comic fails the Bechdel test so hard it can't even have a character talk about their trauma or childhood without it seguing into "well there's this one specific main character guy I just really wanna sleep with-"

Don't get me wrong, if Rachel is trying to "deconstruct purity culture" here, I can get her angle with this, if Persephone has been "groomed her entire life" to be an eternal maiden then there's clearly some thought processes about sexual attraction there that are being challenged by her attraction to Hades. But it just feels so rushed purely for the sake of getting her through her trauma and childhood problems and everything that Rachel tacked onto her backstory (in an attempt to make her seem more than just a self-insert) so that Rachel can get her back on track to sleeping with Hades, the one and only man she's clearly ever felt sexual attraction to enough to want to leave TGOEM and question her entire childhood.

And then we get this and I just-

Like first of all, again, Persephone being a complete airhead and not realizing that it has less to do with her possibly being an inadequate partner and more to do with Hades being a serial cheater who also used her as an emotional affair partner;

but ALSO the fact that the conclusion is some "eureka" moment of "you're a bad decision maker" ??? I was a fan of the comic still when this scene happened and even I went "huh?"

Like she doesn't bother to try and connect it to everything she just learned and said about her childhood and how she wants to be the "perfect daughter" who will make everyone happy, Chiron just reduces it to "oh you just suck at making decisions". As if "sucking at making decisions" isn't like, a reactionary extension of deeper problems. She's treating it as if Persephone is some "puzzle" to be solved and her being a "bad decision maker" was the answer when it's undoubtedly just one of many side effects of her upbringing. It feels like she's addressing the cough and not the virus.

Also a little off topic but-

Gotta love how we've never seen Persephone actually employ this homework from her therapist because she's constantly stapled to Hades and the only thing she cares about is his happiness. Literally, I don't think Persephone could possibly answer that question because she's never been independent enough to even learn what makes her happy - she's jumped from wanting to make her mother happy to wanting to make Hades happy but we're supposed to condemn the former and celebrate the latter.

Buuut of course we don't get her answering that question because again, Rachel can't spend more than 30 seconds on a single scene because that would demand too much writing and thought from her. So we cut to Hera having a discussion with Asclepius regarding her scars re-opening, yadda yadda.

By the time we cut back to the therapy session at the start of the next episode (that's three episodes that have been spent basically accomplishing nothing because none of the thought threads tie together in a meaningful way beyond what the audience has to assume) Chiron is conveniently wrapping things up and it's then and only then does Rachel try to actually incorporate the SA plotline that was Persephone's ORIGINAL MOTIVATION in going to therapy.

Now, the scene for the most part is fine, I don't really like how the therapy session was written leading up to it, but her describing her freeze response and how she feels guilty she couldn't "fight back" is a very real feeling that I can definitely say was well written.

My one gripe with it though - and sure, this might be nitpicky, but here me out - is this:

I don't particularly like that Chiron the therapist just found out about her patient being a rape victim - someone who's also said she doesn't like people grabbing her / touching her without her consent - and then decides the best course of action is to comfort her... while touching her.

Now I want to make it perfectly clear, it's not against the law or even the code of ethics to make physical contact between a therapist and their patient. Loads of patients have made breakthroughs with their therapists that have called for hugs and while some therapists may not be okay with it, there are definitely therapists who are who fully understand that hugs in those moments are the best thing for a person. But it's still a general boundary that is there and even with patients who aren't victims of SA, consent needs to be asked for / given.

So Chiron just... coming over and touching Persephone on the knee, while undoubtedly seen as a "warm and comforting act" by those who have had similar sessions with their own therapists or even just those who have no clue and see it on the surface level as being "sweet", really irks me, because it just seems so tone deaf to do with a character like Persephone who is supposed to be a victim of having her bodily autonomy taken away from her.

Again, it's a small criticism, and undoubtedly a nitpick in the eyes of some, but a simple "can I give you a hug?" from either Chiron or Persephone would have gone a long way in accomplishing Persephone's need for consent and bodily autonomy a lot more than just having Chiron come up and touch her leg without her consent. Please, for the love of god, let Persephone have some autonomy, asking for consent doesn't ruin the moment.

And that's pretty much it, Persephone talks about how she feels like she's tethered to Apollo, and Chiron assures her that's not the case, session over, Persephone goes outside to Hades aaaand notice how we never actually tackled that "I feel insecure because of my partner having former partners?" thing? Notice how the best we got was her talking about her fears of being an "inadequate partner" which focused entirely on her not being "enough" for Hades and being a "bad decision maker" rather than pointing out 1.) Hades' own faults in being a serial cheater that would undoubtedly contribute to her insecurities and 2.) what Persephone could do for Hades rather than what Hades could do for Persephone? It's always "I don't know if I'm good enough for him" and never "I don't know if he's good enough for me."

Yet another F-- on Lore Olympus' Bechdel test. Every single thing tacked onto Persephone's backstory is meant purely to get her with Hades - TGOEM is just an obstacle preventing her from having sex with Hades, the assault is just a framing device to show how much "better" Hades is for Persephone than Apollo, her overbearing childhood is just to show how much more "free" she is now that she's not living with her mother and is living with Hades instead, etc.

No agency, no autonomy, no character, even when it tries.

[lizard-queen-izzy]

OK! WE'RE DOING THIS!

Everyone shut up and sit down. I'm talking about TMA. I am listening through for the first time, I'm through S1 and halfway through S2, and I already have many Thoughts. Today, we will be focusing on my evil ship thoughts, because I missed my chance when this was coming out so now I will subject you all.

I know Jon and Martin get together at some point, and yknow, that's all fine and good.

BUT I WANNA TALK ABOUT JON AND TIM, OK?

There is so much potential for something there, and they would be so incredibly messy after the S1 finale.

[I've lightly scrolled through the jontim tag, and I truly don't think there's enough of you talking about how tragic they are. Platonic or romantic, they're so so sad.]

They both worked in the research department before Jon was made Head Archivist, and even though they definitely weren't close, they were definitely friendly. My Firm Belief is that Jon was the only one who took Tim seriously despite his more lax attitude, he saw his strong work ethic and his dedication and treated him accordingly. And Tim was the only one who listened to Jon, the only one who thought he had anything to add and took his suggestions.

I believe they were hired around the same time, and once they met there was a silent understanding that they were there for eachother. It was nice to just have someone in their corner in this new environment.

When Jon got promoted to Head Archivist, he was adamant about Tim being on his team, because he knew Tim would help get the results needed. [I have a whole, how everyone got assigned to the team timeline thought out but that's not why we're here]

Tim is the only member of his team who Jon doesn't think would have written Antonio Blake's statement as a joke to scare him. Which means he trusts him the most out of all of them. Which wouldn't be as important if he showed distaste for them equally, but he regards both Tim and Sasha highly, and only really seems to have an issue with Martin at this point. So why would he trust Tim to not have written it but not Sasha? Unless he's known him the longest and has reason to put that faith in him.

AND THEIR CONVERSATION AT THE BEGINNING OF MAG 33?? You're gonna listen to that, the first time we as the audience meet Tim, and tell me you don't hear how much these two care for eachother? Even when Jon starts getting upset/loud, he calms quickly for Tim, and doesn't let himself fully yell at him. He also leaves it up to Tim to fix the mistakes, an example of him trusting Tim's judgement and work. And Tim is so calm with him! The man keeps getting worked up and starting to get loud, but Tim stays calm and let's him self correct and say what he needs to before proceeding himself. He knows Jon is stressed and has a lot on his plate. He knows these mistakes needed to be discussed with him and corrected somehow, but he's still not going to force Jon to re-record the statements if he really doesn't want to, he's willing to find another solution. And then he leaves to go work on it so Jon can get back to recording the statement.

And Tim telling Jon he doesn't understand the filing system and Jon explaining it calmly to him, admitting he doesn't really get it either but that's how it is.

You also have to see my vision for how the S1 finale effects them. A traumatic experience where they were both scarred mentally and physically in the same ways. Something that should have brought them even closer, maybe finally made them feel comfortable being proper friends outside of work. But they both react to it SO differently. And that is the beginning of their downfall. That is the beginning of the end.

Because Jon spirals. He stops trusting everyone. He pushes them all away and starts crossing boundaries. HE SPIES ON TIMS HOUSE. And he can't even calm down long enough to see why this bothers his coworkers. Why this hurts Tim.

The beginning of S2 from Tim's perspective is awful. Your first friend in this workplace is overworking himself, throwing himself back into work the second he's cleared physically well enough to go back. But he clearly hasn't moved past it, and you can't blame him for that. Everyone copes differently, but then he turns on you. He stops trusting you, starts pushing you away, starts spying on you. Can you imagine how much that hurts? To have the first person in this terrifying new job who ever put their trust in you, who ever believed in you, to turn on you just when you need them the most.

THEY ARE SO FUCKING MESSY. GOD.

Anyway. I very well may be back with more JonTim thoughts as I continue to listen. But this is what I have for you today.

[magicwhiskers29]

This is. Something of a nonsense post, I think, but I wanted to ramble about who MK classifies as his "many, many dads" in s5e3's gag about the snakes. (I haven't seen further than this ep yet, so please no spoilers!)

Like, obviously there's Pigsy. We've known MK definitely sees him as a father since s2e1, where he calls him Dadsy. This is only affirmed again and again by later seasons, with stuff like s4 explicitly saying Pigsy raised him, and Pigsy calling him son (whilst he's asleep, so MK doesn't hear, but still) in s5e1. No one is arguing at this point that Pigsy counts.

Then... Well, I feel like the next obvious choice is Wukong, and that is already a lot more... Complicated. Obviously a lot of people (myself included) do see Wukong as something of a father figure for MK. He mentors (that should probably be in quotation marks because of how not good at it he is, but ah well) MK to help with his new powers (nominally) that his other family, like Pigsy, just can't really, because Wukong's the only one with similar abilities. He looks out for MK and often tries to shield him from even knowing that there is a greater danger -- his role in the story is that of a mentor, but when you break it down, it can sound fatherly.

But does MK see it this way? It's explicitly prompted in s4, when Mei and MK talk about the prospect of Wukong being his biological father. MK denies it outright, but only on the grounds that Wukong would have told him, if it were true. It's his trust in Wukong that makes him not believe it, not the fact that he personally thinks it wouldn't make sense, or that he doesn't see Wukong that way.

As a counter point, I've seen some people say the s5 scene where he acknowledges that they're all Wukong's friends (after they rebuild his house) is confirmation that MK sees him as a friend, or potential equal -- that they're buds, not father and son. And like, they are buds! They are friends! But I don't think the narrative wants us to view them as equals, or that close to that, because they are explicitly still mentor and student. Wukong is still the one giving MK advice through the next few episodes. MK loses the fight against Wukong at the beginning of s5e1 to show that, whilst they both hold back, Wulong still beats him, even if only just.

Wukong even calls him kid, just like Pigsy does! And I know that's part of his branding, but... It's not his name. Mei doesn't call him that, and she's his best friend. There are supposed to be parallels drawn between Pigsy and Wukong's behaviour, in regards to MK.

So especially with the season 4 conversation about Wukong as MK's dad still up in the air and not fully answered, on account of Wukong not having the answers, it seems, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume MK is including Wukong in his "many, many dads". He's also saying the line to Wukong, so...

And then... Tang? For one, Tang and Pigsy often act like they're married, with the way Tang hangs around the noodle shop (below literally where Pigsy and MK live) and has been, as such, telling MK stories since he was a child, being particularly relevant here, I think. Like, whether or not you think Pigsy and Tang are romantically involved, or just long-time friends, Tang has also been there for MK for a while.

MK does call him "Mr Tang" for a while, which isn't overly familiar, but... What else would he call him? The show isn't literally telling us that Pigsy and Tang are married, or anything close to such, so MK doesn't know him as well as Pigsy. It's polite. And MK tends to call most people by a title in the early seasons -- "Mr Tang", "Monkey King", most villains with a title... He usually calls people directly by the name for two reasons: he's very close and familiar with them (Like Pigsy or Mei), or he's belittling them because he's not at all close with them (Red Son in s1, or Macaque in s2, plus other villains that he uses no title for). He also tends to be more respectful towards people he looks up to or is intimidated by, so... DBK, who is just terrifying, in s3, Tang ,who taught him about JttW, in early seasons, and Wukong, who is his hero.

That's a lot of ramblings to say that I think including Tang isn't a stretch. This is a joke line, so I think we can assume MK is being loose with his classifications.

Is three "many, many"? I wouldn't exactly say so, but our other candidates are er.... Sandy? Macaque? To address both of those...

MK only meets Sandy in the pilot, and seems to view him as first a family, and then a personal, friend. The narrative frames Sandy as that kind of guy that gets called "Uncle or Aunt whatever" because they're a friend of your parents, in my opinion. He's an adult authority figure who looks out for MK, so if that's the definition then... Sure? Maybe MK is being extremely loose with who he counts, and since we've already seen the line between friend and family for him be extremely blurred, we could say for sake of argument that Sandy is one of his "many, many dads".

But Macaque? Oof, that's more complicated. If we just say that all of MK's male mentors are his father figures, then sure, go nuts. Macaque is one of his "many, many dads", but... The extent to which MK actually sees him as a legitimate mentor, and most certainly a father, could definitely be called into question.

In season 1, he does until the Macaque attacks Wukong. Then he sees himself as having been tricked, and the lesson he learns is related to Wukong. In other words, he largely discounts Macaque's work.

In season 2, he explicitly only calls Macaque his teacher to demean him. (Macaque: "A good kid with a really terrible teacher." MK: "I thought you were my teacher?") He is definitely bitter over the events of Macaque's two episodes up to this point, and make sure Macaque knows that. Macaque probably does legitimately see MK as his student of sorts, but son? Hm...

In season 3, Macaque spends most of it working for the main villain. So, uh. Not much father-son bonding happening there. He fights MK multiple times, and only teams up with him once he can get away with it. Macaque presents himself as very distant whilst they're all planning in the s3 specials, and his snarky mask is up in full force, but I do think he does really bond with MK in the final battle. Here, him calling MK kid or kiddo feels more along the lines the genuine affection that Wukong and Pigsy use it for, rather than demeaning.

In s4, he goes out of his way to help MK in one of his darkest moments, and even confronts parts of his past with Wukong for MK. He also once again participates in the final battle. (To help them.) By this point, it's undeniable that Macaque really does care about MK, and if you wanted to read that as him seeing MK as some kind of son, then I would say power to you. I don't know if that's really how I see it, but there is something there.

The issue? It's not "does Macaque see MK as a son?", it's "does MK see Macaque as a father?". My opinion is that MK sees Macaque as, at best some kind of shady uncle, but I don't want to understate the fact that the two of them do still grow closer. Maybe for the sake of the joke, MK includes Macaque, because his behaviour's been similar to Wukong's recently. (Though it is worth noting that MK doesn't see stuff like the Macaque-Wukong conversation in s5e1) I think I'll just have to leave this one more open ended.

And now I've spent way too long analysing what is almost certainly just a gag line directs as a bit of a wink and a nudge at the audience. Oh well.

[onewingedsparrow]

I gotta talk about one of my favorite details in RiD 🔥It's a moment that puts the story in storyboarding! While this is only one of many such moments throughout the show, this one is definitely more, ahem, in your face :) than some other, more subtle parallels. This moment is split between two scenes; the first in S2E2, "Overloaded, Part 1"; the second is the bookend partner to that, coming in S2E2, "Overloaded, Part 2." (Spoilers for S1 and S2 below, obviously) Also, I suppose I should warn that this is a long post, because I have many words about this :)

By the end of the first season, Bumblebee has proved himself the worthy leader Optimus always knew he could be. 'Bee has overcome Megatronus, saved the Allspark from merging with the Antispark (and thus, spared both Earth and Cybertron from imploding), and even found a catchphrase that fits his leading style! Yay! What a great way to end a season. After such a high point in his life, however, the writers know that to start the next season off, they need Bumblebee to face a particularly rough challenge. If he's going to keep growing as a character, as a leader, he can't always be riding the high of victory. He needs a new catalyst. Therefore, Season 2 starts off by throwing him a curveball: a Decepticon from his past, that once injured him severely in the war, infiltrates the scrapyard pretty much immediately after Optimus, Bumblebee's greatest support, has vanished through the ground bridge.

When this Decepticon, Overload, arrives, Bumblebee recognizes him instantly. His entire demeanor darkens with rage so suddenly that Grimlock and Strongarm can't help but notice.

The Bee Team will learn later on that Bumblebee has a personal score to settle with Overload, but for now, they can only watch as their normally levelheaded leader throws himself at Overload, fists flying. While hand to hand combat isn't unusual for Bumblebee, in this moment, it feels wrong for him to launch into that—given all the times prior where we've seen him first, coolly and calmly, take a step back to handle an active Decepticon threat. Not to mention, Bumblebee makes no move to brandish either his gun or his Decepticon Hunter; he just wants to punch this 'Con's lights out. Overload beat him up in the past, and he wants to return the favor. The first occasion where Bumblebee punches Overload, the perspective feels extremely familiar. The camera doesn't need to show off this particular view to show Bumblebee's anger, per se, but the makers of the show choose to position the camera like so. Clearly, the storyboard wishes for us to recall a scene we've seen before. It didn't take me long to think of it: the first time we see Bumblebee fighting in TFP! This screenshot on the right is from the very first episode, "Darkness Rising, Part 1." When Arcee needed backup against Eradicons, Bumblebee came and decked Steve right in the face. Bam. Look at those sparks flying! (I'll get to that later.)

What is most interesting to me about this moment in RiD as compared to the moment in TFP is: in RiD, Bumblebee should be exemplifying how he's gained valuable combat experience since his younger days. However, in TFP, when Bumblebee punched Steve, his motion was very precise, very direct. in RiD, when Bumblebee tries to punch Overload, his arms swing far looser, far wider than that.

It's a bit easier to see in motion, so if you're curious, I highly recommend watching the episodes yourself.

Notice how TFP Bumblebee, Scout Bumblebee, uses his left arm to map out his bullseye, preparing his right arm to swing in for a tightly controlled punch. He's aiming before he launches, whereas RiD Bumblebee, Warrior Bumblebee, mind you, isn't taking time to aim. He's just firing punches willy-nilly, because he's fragging mad. He doesn't care about accuracy; he cares about hitting Overload as hard as he can, as fast as he can. It's such a wonderful way to convey just how upset Bumblebee is regarding Overload; his battle style is reverting back to his rookie days. He's subconsciously slipping into bad habits because his hurt has taken the psychological wheel, and his emotions can't throttle back so long as that's driving him. Even if you're unfamiliar with the parallel scene from TFP, the animation of RiD makes it clear to the viewer's eye that something about Bumblebee's fighting style is off. And, if the big, sweeping motions perhaps aren't obvious enough to the viewer, Overload easily dodges or deflects most of Bumblebee's wild attacks, making it strikingly clear. In watching the RiD scene and the TFP scene side by side, you may also have noticed that the TFP punch is far more satisfying, because we get to hear the big metal KAPOW as Bumblebee clocks Steve's face. This sound effect, combined with the shower of slow motion sparks, invigorates the viewer because look at how cool Bumblebee is! Wow! What a spectacle! Epic!

With Overload, however, we receive no such hype. No sparks go flying, even when Bumblebee manages to land a hit, because we're not supposed to feel that this battle is going well. We're supposed to feel a little uncomfortable, like we can sense something is missing, something is wrong, because Bumblebee isn't at the top of his game, and he won't be, so long as he remains lost in his anger. Ah, but fortunately for our favorite Prime in Disguise, this isn't the end! Compare that first attack on Overload in the first episode to his final attack on Overload in the second episode!

By this point, Bumblebee has realized the folly of his mindless rage. He had to get a little beat up again to reach this realization, but he has come to accept that he doesn't need the payback of revenge to be satisfied with his victory over Overload. He knows he needs to move on from the hurt of the past, and simply do what he was called to Earth to do: capture rogue Decepticons. He just needs to get the job done. So he does! In the screenshot above, notice how his form is much more controlled this time around. No more wild, swinging, rookie punches. This punch is focused, tight, and aimed. This punch channels the Warrior experience he's gained over years of fighting. This punch is heading home. And it hits hard.

So hard, in fact, that sparks go flying. Slow motion sparks that feel quite familiar, almost as if they were meant to remind us of another equally satisfying visual moment. Hmm, I wonder what moment it could be? ;) All in all, I think these moments are beautifully set up and executed. The parallel to TFP isn't frame for frame in either RiD scene, but it doesn't need to be; both scenes are reminiscent enough that they trigger the audience's memory, strongly. As a final note, I would also like to point out that this episode ends on another glorious parallel between Bumblebee and Optimus ✨ When Optimus punches Polarclaw, the similarity is unmistakable.

To grow beyond his rookie mistakes and lingering bad habits, Bumblebee has to learn let go of the hurt of the past. Only then can he become an even better leader than he is already, further reflecting Optimus Prime as he always has. The Prime in Disguise still has a bit farther to grow as Season 2 takes off, but he's on the right track; and after this encounter with Overload, 'Bee is even more ready to rev up and roll out.

[renthefox]

What makes Lu Guang and Cheng Xiaoshi canon even though there's no vocal confirmation or a kiss on the mouth?

{BECAUSE I NEED MY SANITY AFTER FOLLOWING S2}

First of all, for whoever doesn't know, it's illegal to show gay "sexual practices" in China. As a result, the creators, even if they wanted, they are restrained by laws. It has to be expressed as strong subtext.

First of all, we have the name of the series itself, where "shiguang" means time and is created by taking our boys' names and compounding them into one: Cheng XiaoSHI + Lu GUANG. It's obviously also related to their front shop cover business as photographers, but this is what one would also call this pairing ship.

Secondly, as I've noted in previous post, the posters show them with yin & yang colours. But even the clothes used in the doghua imply their relationship is something more; CXS's bomber jacket combines both yellow/orange (his signature colours from the promos) and blue (LG's signature colour). Doesn't it have the same vibes like a girlfriend wearing her boyfriend's shirt?

Thirdly, in the chibi show, LG is a cat and CXS is a dog. I'm not Chinese, so I'm not 100% sure on this one, but many cultures will associate cats with femme fatales or with female characteristics, while dogs with masculinity as guards. In Japan, that's an actual gay lingo, with neko being the "bottom" partner, not to mention similar manga depictions in BL manga and doujinshi.

Fourthly, we are granted a short where our two protagonists are entangled in red string, while playing string ladder. Red string is a very prominent symbol for fated lovers in East Asia.

Last but not least, can we all acknowledge the "irony" of them being roommates? This has become such a meme, especially withing historical context, that I doubt it's not intended. As for the bunk beds, they're a matter of lack ofspace and money, not to mention the concept of "saving face".

Anything else comes directly from the dialogue or parallel scenes and the characters' interactions. See below.

In ep2, s1, the scene is most likely a reference to Lady and the Trump, where the couple shares a plate of pasta and somehow end up being connected by a single noodle. We don't really see the boys eating, but the arrangement is the same, and CXS even names the dish the "male dormitory's bowl" much like the women had named theirs the "female dormitory's bowl". And the ladies, not married until their early 40s, starting a business together, using ingredients of emotional significance to each other... they are definitely together as an item.

I think this one is pretty straightforward. They almost had a fur baby together.

In another chibi episode, LG and CXS are meant to fight one another as training, and both are unwilling to badmouth each other as a fight starter. Even the immature CXS, who one would guess could be the guy to make a laundry list of complaints, uses his own flaws and secrets to provoke LG. And by the way, two things are revealed: a) CXS basically confessed through a fake account, and b) LG protected CXS, putting the blame for breaking the cups on himself.

I don't know about you, but this sounds so very gay flirting to me.

The personal space these two share is very tight many times, beyond just friends who care for each other or shy people who feel embarrassed by admitting what they like in their "friend".

I don't know that many male friends who would rub against each other in an effort to charm the other into persuassion...

[drconstellation]

Inside the Dirty Donkey

**Warning! This meta contains spoilers and speculation for S3. Do NOT tag Neil!**

Time to get comfy, folks. Get your drink of choice, be it a cupperty, coffee, or nip of sherry, and find a seat. You’ll definitely want to be sitting down for this one. We’re going to the pub!

The name is apparently a favorite of NG’s, used in his short story “We Can Get Them For You Wholesale.” And it also appears in the Sandman AU.

In the short story above the protagonist is a jilted lover who tries to organize an assassin for his fiancé who is having an affair with another man at their shared workplace. He meets the ‘salesman’ of the firm he contacts at a pub called the Dirty Donkey, and it escalates from there. The story is freely available online, so you can search it up if you really want to read it, it won’t take long. It mentions a pale horse, which is usually what Death rides in on, and is appropriate in the context of that story.

The question we need to ask is how does the name The Dirty Donkey apply to the Good Omens AU? Are there any context to the name at all?

There are several meanings for a dirty donkey:

Its a slang or joke name for a black horse (not particularly a dark horse, that has a different meaning altogether)

A cocktail

A sex position (I’ll let you look that one up yourself…)

Probably the first thing we need to talk about, though is an actual donkey itself, in relation to Jesus, as S2 is full of Jesus references and hints to the Second Coming in S3. Yep, it was all there in front of us, but we were too focused on other things. If you remember your Bible teachings, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, because he came in peace. In ancient times leaders rode horses if they went to war, or if they came in conquest. But arriving by donkey meant you came with peaceful intentions.

But Jesus didn't turn up in S2, you say. And certainly not on any hairy beast. Ah, but he did - metaphorically. Gabriel as Jim turned up - he came up the street, by (the Dirty) Donkey, walking through spilled blood tomatoes, then mentioned his arms were no longer sore (because he had been taken off the cross.) MrPeriod talks more about how Jim represents Jesus here, and it might be worth revisiting it at length another time, as there is quite a bit to unpack there.

There are also the two big golden lions perched on either end of the bar inside the pub, that look rather ominous. The lions are strongly connected to Jesus and his resurrection, representing his return. (I'm still planning to have a better look for more lions in both S1 and S2, but that is still a WIP at the moment.)

There is also the scene in 1941 where the Nazi zombies stagger into the Dirty Donkey and spy on Aziraphale and Crowley through the windows through to the book shop, but all they manage to get is “Banana, fish, gorilla, shoe lace with a dash of nutmeg.” It sounds a bit like a cocktail reference – well, the nutmeg is definitely a GO ref to a certain cocktail – but the cocktail called a Dirty Donkey has cinnamon in it, in the form of cinnamon schnapps, not nutmeg – plus chocolate liqueur and rum. So maybe not.

But perhaps the most important thing we have to examine is the conversation about Jane Austin that Aziraphale and Crowley have in the pub, in S2E2. Because its got so many levels you just about need a break for extra oxygen half way down. Ha! And you thought it was a couple of funny throw-away lines about how Aziraphale saw human romance...

OK, this is the section of dialogue we are going to look at:

AZIRAPHALE: If you're going to invoke fiction, you might as well do it properly. CROWLEY: Properly? AZIRAPHALE: You remember Jane Austen? CROWLEY: Yeah. I'm not gonna forget her in a hurry, am I? The brains behind the 1810 Clerkenwell Diamond Robbery. Brandy smuggler. Master spy. What a piece of work. AZIRAPHALE: She wrote books. Novels. CROWLEY: Jane? Austen? AZIRAPHALE: Yes! CROWLEY: Whoa, bit of a dark horse. Novels, eh? AZIRAPHALE: Yes. They were very good. CROWLEY: Well. No, I'm just surprised, that's all. You think you know someone. AZIRAPHALE: She had balls. CROWLEY: Well.... AZIRAPHALE: Cotillion balls. People would gather and do some formal dancing and then realize they had misunderstood each other and were actually deeply in love.

Ready to dive into the levels on the Jane Austen conversation? Let's go...

Level 1: It’s a conversation about the novelist Jane Austen, and it sounds like they both met her, but they remember her in different ways – and Crowley’s memory is rather surprising!

Level 2: There is a mention of a robbery. This makes the parallel with the 1967 scene in S1E3 Hard Times, where Crowley has a secret meeting in the Dirty Donkey to plan a robbery to steal holy water from a church. The robbery in the above conversation involves diamonds (are you taking note/s? This is important!) from Clerkenwell, a district of London of some notoriety. It was famous for it watchmakers and jewelers, but it was also the home of Oliver Cromwell, who has a link to the 1650 date mentioned in S2E1 and the Eccles cakes, to Charles Dickens (author of A Tale of Two Cities, a book of note for GO) Oh, and both times Crowley is wearing a "Tactical Turtleneck", which others have noted he wears when he is doing his own master spy work, such planning or discussing robberies, or sneaking into Heaven to rob them of information!

Level 3: There is Aziraphale’s idea about how a romance should be conducted, by hosting a cotillion ball with formal dancing, because he's read all those romantic novels by Austen. And we get to see that played out in S2E5 in the eldritch ball. Crowley's idea of a romance was to get caught in the rain and kiss, then - vavoom!

Level 4: Why mention this apparently fictional side to an author of fictional romance? Well, on one hand, it’s an interesting but dark set-up for a joke later at the beginning of S2E6. I ended up discussing it at length here, but the short of it is that it is our usual human custom not to speak ill of the dead, and this is a form of extreme black-and-white thinking. Here, Aziraphale speaks of the good/white side of Jane Austen, that is well known, but Crowley speaks of the black/supposedly forgotten or unspoken bad side of Austen.

Level 5: Here’s the S3 information. Have you been paying attention? Did you take note? The parallels were the robberies between a church, and diamonds? That she was a brandy smuggler? Do you know where they smuggled brandy from? And do you know where Austen actually lived? On the South Downs, overlooking the Channel to France…

Whew. I think I need a drink after that. Cheers!

[Edit: I've recently finished a meta on the Bentley and how that relates to black horses, and it's occurred to me why the ethereal lift, or "hellevator," is in the entrance to the Dirty Donkey. Black horses are symbolic spirit guides between the worlds of the living and the dead, so this makes the perfect place to put the lift!]

[mirtola87]

"Tale as old as time", or how Good Omens planted a seed in my soul that's growing more and more (bettah) [2/2]

[Continues from Part 1] Then we started watching S2, and as it happens in any good mystery story, clues became evidences. Crowley and Aziraphale started laying their cards on the table. Throughout the episodes, they act more and more like an "us" and we get used to the idea that their side is a fact. No matter what happens, they will face it together, as they did more and more in the last 6.000 years of their "tale as old as time". Being a coup... ehm, "group of the two of us" without telling themselves and each other, walking on a wire. And then came the rainstorm, the canopy, Jane Austen, the ball, Beelzebub and Gabriel going off together, Nina and Maggie talking with Crowley. The moment not only the characters but the audience, too, realize that the ineffable love could be actually named and told. "Just a little change, small to say the least / Both a little scared, neither one prepared." It was pure revelation, mind-blowing and delightful. After 9 long years, I finally knew that they loved each other, that I loved them, and that I wanted them to be happy together, forever. If I could feel it so deeply, I wonder what it could have been like for Neil himself to discover that the two characters he knew so well from almost 30 years were in love with each other. And then, after 6 "quiet, gentle and romantic" episodes, exploring the evolution of the characters and their relationship and mutual influence through the time (6.000 years of bickering, longing glances and building trust in each other, "bittersweet and strange, finding you can change, learning you were wrong"), the last 15 minutes suddenly came and leave them (and us) heartbroken, as their love is told and denied in the very same moment. It was painful and devastating. And here I am now. Two months have passed since I saw S2 E6, and all that I, all that we can do is wait (and see, hopefully). But it's not, it can't be as before. Something in me has definitely changed. Or rather, it woke as if it had been long asleep. And it grows better and better. This story made me feel things I hadn't felt for years. It's making me feel love, and pain, and longing, and hope. It made me remember how great stories (amazing lies) can make you experience true, deep feelings ("true as it can be"); and it awoke my desire to tell stories and share feelings as well, a wish that had lied sleeping in the back of my mind for a long time. So yes, I am obsessed with GO, but it's not just about this story I love, it's also about me, I believe. And all the time in-between reading the book, watching S1 once, rewatching it and then watching S2 lead me to this, because things can develop and grow only with time. So I guess I should be grateful for that heartbreaking cliffhanger. If S3 had already been there for us to watch, I would have already consumed the answers I wanted. My mind would be at peace and probably none of this would have happened. Instead, I find myself full of questions (about the story, and about my life), I'm restless and eager, I'm painfully alive. And I feel like a new path, a new chapter, is opening before me. "Certain as the sun rising in the East", in the next years I'll be waiting for Neil to tell us about the "Neighbour of the Beast", and in the meantime I'll try my best to cling to that feelings as a precious gift, don't let them go, nurture them and use them for the best. There are many things I wish to thank @neil-gaiman for, but this is probably the most important so far.

[kitkatt0430]

Oooh how about an AU where Hartley’s part of Team Flash from the start 👀

I have soooo many thoughts on this kind of AU. Some of which may or may not be contradictory. :D

So first and foremost, I do not see Hartley agreeing with the pipeline. Either he convinces the team not to go in that direction at all or it becomes the sticking point that makes him leave the team when it becomes clear the pipeline isn't going to be the short term solution he was assured it would be.

Hartley does leave the team at some point regardless of the pipeline. I could see this either as EoWells swaying Hartley to his side and pitting him against Barry only for Hartley to learn the truth of his friend/lover in the worst way, or him splitting from the team due to being unwilling to work with Harrison anymore over his growing number of secrets.

I really like the idea that if Hartley still knew about the flaw ahead of time and that's what splits him from the team, that he turns whistleblower about it and goes to Iris. He may not trust EoWells anymore but he's grown to trust Barry and, through Barry, Iris too. It'd be good for Iris too to get something big to her name early that has nothing to do with the Flash (that they know of anyway) and I could see it spurring Mason to be more respectful of Iris and give her an in for picking up Mason's investigation into Wells when it gets him killed.

While Hartley would split from the team during S1, I think S2 he'd be firmly back in with the team. It'd be awkward at first and take time for ruffled feathers over S1 events to settle, but he'd be a permanent part of the team going forward.

Romance wise, I'd either want him to meet Roderick but not necessarily start dating him yet, meet David Singh and get to have his canon love interest from the comics, or have a belligerent UST thing with Cisco that settles into dating eventually (but maybe they both casually date others first). Admittedly, Hartmon is my preference but I could see any of these working out really well. (Or I could go even more AU and do pre-Barry/Hartley...)

Ronnie and Hartley are friends. Which probably bewildered Cisco until he and Hartley begrudgingly became friends too.

Hartley would at least talk about having a younger sister, if not have Jerrie show up. (If she didn't appear in S1, then she'd definitely show up in S2.)

Hartley has pet rats! They are cute and he's so soft for them. :D

S2 events would have Hartley's parents reaching out to him and the struggle there for reconciling with them. Hartley wants it very much, but not to the point of compromising on certain things his parents need to keep working on if they're serious about wanting their son back. I can see him pointing out that them trying to be less homophobic is great, but he can't trust it if they aren't going to work on not being transphobic or otherwise queerphobic.

The Rogues! I can see him teaming up with Snart in S1 perhaps, making his choice to side back with Team Flash in S2 rockier with a more Rogues focused S2. Snart wants Rathaway's skills back on his team and Hartley is running out of polite ways to say 'no'.

I've got a lot of ideas for this kind of AU, really. And it's one I very much want to write at some point.

[karin-miyoshi]

Do you think yuyuyu is ableist?

sheesh, talk about a loaded question

definitely opens up a lot of rabbit holes. ill give my opinion, but note im not the most educated on the subject itself so giving a definite answer is outside my scope.

ill put a read below, but for me, i personally think it isnt, but can be easily misinterpreted as is on a surface level.

tldr, ableism is discrimination towards those with disabilities.

the character in question most of the time when it comes to these topics is tougou, who uses a wheelchair in season 1 due to losing function in her legs. there are never any distasteful jokes made about this, and the show constantly shows various handicap friendly services throughout the show. something even more surprising is that these are never the core focus of the scene or pointed out, its always well integrated into the world as if it were normal (important).

just skimming through s1, we have:

wheelchair assistance integration for both cars and stairs

special swim courses for the disabled, not separated from the rest of the class

beach wheelchairs and separate assistants

now while we can assume a lot of these were due to her previous service as washio sumi, i dont think that would really be fair to the production team putting these in, and it really feels like theres a lot more heart than "yeah we put these for the big shock value realization later on". even after regaining function in her legs near the end of the season, tougou's priority was always towards yuuna and her recovery.

onto the next topic, which is the show taking away and then returning these characters functions throughout. whats important to consider here is what is considered tragic, is it the characters living without these certain functions, or is it the act of losing these functions themselves?

"It'll definitely improve. I mean, we haven't done anything wrong." (Fuu, s1ep9) again, no distasteful jokes made about their disabilities, and fuu even plays it off with her sick eyepatch. her worries instead stem from the loss of itsuki's dream, in the form of her no longer being able to sing. thats the key factor here, being punished for doing what is right, losing the ability to do what you could do before, losing the memories of the time you spent with your friends. (thats another thing i see with a lot of these arguments, they always bring up physical disabilities, but ive never seen one actually talk about ones regarding memory, arguably the most precious thing to them). tougou flat out doesnt remember sonoko at all despite being comrades in arms before, and understandably freaks out that the same might happen with her and yuuna.

now, understandably, the ending to s1 seemed super rushed, and them getting their bodily functions back seemed rather sudden. this put a lot of people off, and was really only explained in s2, which many didnt watch.

people should be allowed to grieve if they lose something important to them, and should be allowed to be happy if they get it back. personally, i dont think people realize the weight of their words when they say, "oh i wish karin wouldve stayed deaf, itd be really cool to see the club members learning sign language for it" or "yuuna in a wheelchair was really cute, i wish we saw more of it." yeah its a cool idea i guess, maybe something to see while theyre stil recovering, but forever? in a chase to see more representation, i hope they realize what they are wishing onto others eventually (even if fictional). while many with disabilities are satisfied with their life, they should be able to wish for better if they wanted to, its not like theyd wish their circumstances on anyone else, right? shouldnt the same apply here, to the girls who've actually lived both with and without disabilities?

just my two cents, hope this wasnt too hard to read! theres a lot more i could write up, especially regarding sonoko, but thats a whole other discussion i should probably save for another time

[canonicallysoulmates]

J2 Gold Panel SFCon 2023

If they could take any outfit from any character they've played on any of their shows which would it be?

Jared says he'll answer for Jensen and Jensen will answer for him, and for Jensen he says lederhosen. And for Jared, Jensen answers the white Lucifer suit, and y'all Jared gets so excited that Jensen got it right it's adorable!

Jared also reveals that he actually does have the white Lucifer suit! Because who else is it gonna fit, that was tailor-made for him. So he has a storage unit that's filled with his and Jensen's spn stuff- it's interesting cause when mentioning the storage unit Jared kinda sounds like he starts to say it's one they've shared for many years but instead cuts himself off and asks Jensen if he still has things in there which by the sounds of it he does. I don't know it just stood out to me cause I don't consider 3 years ago to be many years ago.

Anyways, among the spn stuff that they have is things like scripts, s1 and s2 crew gifts, outfits, and the MOL sconces which Jensen also used in The Winchesters.

Jared also has like an ashtray on a pedestal thing that he loves, and he has an outside area where he likes to have the occasional cigar (says he hasn't had one in the past year) but one day they had a big storm in Austin and it had fallen and he was worried about it but it didn't break. x

The next fan doesn't have a question they just would like for them to wish their dad a happy birthday. 🎂

What if they had gotten John back instead of Mary?

Jared jokes that in his opinion the problem is that John spent so much time, so many years facing zombies he might be a little slow 😂. But also Sam would have had to be all angsty a lot.

Jensen says it probably would have been more of a character arc for Sam with dad rather than what Dean went through with mom; it would have been a similar style of art but it would have been more Sam and John.

Jared says that's a good point, and that it might be that for the first 10 seasons, Sam was so angsty the writers decided they need to get Dean angsty.

.................................I'm gonna bite my tongue. x

This next fan makes the mistake of handing Jared her phone so they can see a picture of her boyfriend cause people say that her boyfriend looks like Dean and now that he's growing out his beard he looks like Jensen. At the same time they were looking at the photo a text notification came in from her dad asking about the panel so y'all can guess what happened...Jared replied to it 🤣

Fan should have known better than to give these two little devils access to her phone, they both start messing around on it trying to figure it out so they can take a selfie. The fan shows Jared where to find the camera but he doesn't realize it's on video mode until he tries to take the pic 😂

They are so mischievous I love them 📱

When did they realize this was gonna be big?

Jared quips this morning; Jensen answers it was definitely a sliding scale because there wasn't an episode or a season. That he was talking about this the previous day at the VIP but he thinks around s6 was when they first realized they might not get canceled, and that was 5 seasons with every season not thinking they were gonna renew the show and after season 5 it was like 'oh I think they like the show, I think they're gonna keep it around.'

Jared agrees, and says that's very true also that was when Kripke left and they wondered if it meant they were done but then in s6 the family came back and kept them going so he has the same answer.

Then they say at the same time they renewed their contract for two years.

Jared also adds that for him when Kripke finished his first 5 seasons as the showrunner he was thinking it meant they were done and on the way out but he doesn't recall the first season or the first time this happened but the first time they did Hall H at comic con and looked out and saw it was a lot of people and their faces were on the backpacks.

Jensen mentions they did a lot of marketing for s1, more than they had ever been a part of, but that doesn't always mean success they can market the hell out of things and it be a total flop so it was hard not to get excited about seeing their faces on the side of WB studios, it was really cool but they kept it in check so there was a lot of those things along the way that was really cool and could be a really big deal but he doesn't think they ever let themselves buy into that until they already had 5 seasons under their belt. x

Another non-question, the fan is wearing a shirt that originally didn't include Jared but they didn't like that so they added him with an iron-on decal and her husband thinks it looks like Leatherface so it's basically her showing Jared her shirt x

If Sam and Dean had wings what would they look like?

Jared thinks his would be colorful, that one thing he loved about the show is that the angel wings were intimidating but he hopes Sammy's angel wings would be more inviting. That's lovely 💛

Jensen says Dean's would look like car doors opening. x

And that was the last question but before they leave the stage Jared announces that Jensen bought him an early birthday present which is the shirt he's wearing and they'll be auctioning it off later for charity. Jensen says he literally went and bought Jared shirts yesterday because he knew he was going to show up to the con and not have any- what a sweet husband 🥰

And for anyone curious the shirt reportedly made over 4k at auction! Also after the auction, Jensen signed the shirt but before doing so he smelled it and said it smelled good because Jared always smells good due to him using a lot of cologne, and he loves it. You know how much you have to love someone and their smell, to sniff their sweaty shirt that they've been running around in all day and think it still smells good ❤️

J2 Gold Panel SFCon 2023

[beautifulbows924]

More Good Omens S2 theories, because I have far too many thoughts and no where else to discuss them.

1. Crowley explicitly states his definition of love is taking cover under an awning—and he mentions that he KNOWS his plan will work.

This made sense from his perspective (regarding himself) towards Aziraphale during Eden, but (despite his optimism) I still noticed that only accounts for one of them, not both.

Then, I remembered that the first time Crowley happened upon “that situation” she was an angel.

& Angels, as demonstrated by Aziraphale in S1, can sense love.

(Did Crowley feel Aziraphale falling in love with her? Did he cause it to rain in Eden on purpose (see—how he controlled the weather in S2 episode three), but Aziraphale covered him before he could repeat the gesture?)

2. The impetus for Crowley asking Aziraphale for Holy Water in 1862 was everything that happened during and after The 1827 “Graveyard” incident. (+ potentially, is the WHY of Crowley’s reactions each time Aziraphale calls them a 4-letter-word.)

I’m (certain) Crowley was treated terribly during their time in Hell (they prefer to be topside for a reason), and this particular instance was a wonderful excuse for Hell to issue quite the punishment (whatever you’re thinking, I’m betting it was 10X worse).

Honestly… I think it’s possible—St. James Park was the first time they and Aziraphale had the opportunity to see each other since the incident (or even, additionally, the first time Crowley was allowed to travel to Earth since the incident.)

It must have been horrifying to hear those words, assuming Aziraphale’s assumption was that everything Crowley went through in Hell must have finally been enough for them to want to leave everything behind, including HIM.

3. The year is 1967 and you’re holding a thermos of Holy Water, (if you’ve begun to follow where I’m going with this, I’m terribly sorry) you believe will likely be the death of your friend.

You don’t want to make it hard on him. You know he likes to drink his poisons. Laudanum. You bring it in a thermos. You don’t allow yourself to stay. It’s your fault. You put him in danger. He’ll be gone soon, and you can’t let yourself stay.

4. This is the most unhinged of my theories, & may just be something I missed (the actual meaning of), so bear with me, but Crowley’s “It doesn’t matter. It’s too late for that now, isn’t it? It’s always too late” line, seems far too resigned? (Almost like he’s done this before… and he’s suddenly realized he’s unable stop it from happening again.)

[number1traumalover]

This is random af, but I just finished watching season 4 of TUA(the umbrella academy) and I am extremely agitated

So, multiple paragraph long(super long) rant under the cut

First things first, let me clarify that this series isn't the worst I've seen, and that s1 and s2 were both goldmines. I do think season 3 and 4 definitely could of done better, though.

To sum up s4 in a few words, RUSHED, UNNECESSARY, and PLOT HOLES. For example, the entire love triangle thing Diego, Five, and Lila was unwanted and pointless. Not only did it degraded Five and Lila's characters so much(c'mon five, you're smarter than that), it was also just a waste of screen time. Lila and Five getting lost on the subway contributed almost NOTHING to the story. It was mainly just a setup for the pathetic relationship they had. The only beneficial thing that came out of it was Lila and Five being able to navigate the subways, which led to Lila's family and Allison's daughter escaping(this was also a terrible writing choice, but we'll get to that later). By pitting Diego, Five, and Lila together they unraveled 3 WHOLE FUCKING YEARS of hard work and dedication to getting Five to slowly grow on them. Overall, 0/10. Hated the love triangle.

For another example, let's talk about the variety in quality, shall we? I will admit that the first 2-3 episodes of season 4 were pretty decent, and I actually liked them, but you could see the quality of the episodes just go down as you progressed through out the season. The ending was clearly rushed, and to me it seems like they were running out of a budget and they knew it. Not a great look, 0/10.

Anyways, its time for my dearly beloathed plot holes. Since I have too many and it would take too long for me to explain them all, I'll just list them all quickly.

Wouldn't Grace, Claire, and Lila's other kid existing in another universe cause a kugelblitz to exist, since their mothers are dead, and thats exactly the reason for why the Sparrow kugelblitz existed?

What happened to the other children with Marigold in them? There were 43 in the umbrella timeline and 19(give or take) in the Sparrow timeline. Why would they also get obliterated when the umbrella siblings got consumed by the cleanse?

Why did Luther get his monkey body back when he drank the Marigold? The monkey body had nothing to do with the Marigold, henceforth shouldn't be associated with his powers.

If it was made so that Five never existed in the first place, then the Commission never would've existed, meaning that Five never would've been hired to assassinate Kennedy, meaning that the whole fucking timeline would be messed up(there's probably more examples of this)

Speaking of the Commission, why did Five found it in the first place? The old Five in the freezer at the commission had half of his arm chopped off, meaning that he founded the commission after the scene with the Guardian. He would've had to reset the timeline in order to gain access to what he needs to start he Commission, but if he reset the timeline, then he wouldn't have his arm chopped off, meaning that in another universe, Five and the others found a way to escape the Oblivion without resetting the timeline. If so, how the fuck did they do that??

Killing the tua shouldn't have erased all the Marigold, since Reginald's wife would've still created the durango and marigold on the other planet BEFORE it had reached earth. And if Five and co didn't exist, the Marigold just would've found another host. THIS DOESNT MAKE SENSE??

The new powers that some of the tua members got make no sense??? Why can Lila shoot laser eyes AND copy powers? How come Klaus can fly? That has nothing to do with his spectral themed powers, and everyone knows that he just makes himself levitate by having ghosts lift him instead. In the scene where Diego is delivering packages (the night after Ben spiked their drinks) how come he's able to make them land directly where he wants them? There's no metal in letters or envelopes??

(There's more plot holes, but I don't have the time and patience to list them all.)

LONG story short, the ending to the grand series finale was kind of disappointing. I genuinely think they could of done a better job on it.

[aemiron-main]

I understand that sooo many things point to time travel in s5, but I have a hard time believing that there's enough time and space to thoroughly and accessibly explore the concept of different timelines in the show. Different timelines will take a lot to explain, and we're just down to 1 season with sooo many characters to give endings to and plot lines to close out already.

I know you and others have picked up on a lot that might be pointing to different timeline stuff, but it's not often big, obvious stuff that the GA have picked up on. Time travel with references in dialogue and the clocks and Nancy's diary, yes, but the timeline theories are very complicated, and there just seems like a lot to fit in with everything else.

Do you have an idea of how it could all be fit in and explained in a way that could be accessible for the GA? That's my major stress with the timeline theories. different Henry's and Edward and multiple versions of the Rainbow Room, like I see your vision and it's really interesting but have a hard time translating that in my head to how it could fit into s5 on screen.

Like what are the themes attached to the idea of multiple timelines? What's the purpose of it, fitting into the existing themes we already pick up on from s1-s4? How does it mesh with what we already have? What is the reason behind exploring that instead of focusing on our main characters? What does it add as far as storytelling that can't already be shown through the party or the older teens or adults that we've known for several seasons already?

And why not make it more obvious in s4? Bc I really do admire how much you've done looking into those blurry ass newspapers, but why wouldn't they plant more seeds for the GA (who aren't combing over the show and those screenshots like a lot of us are on tumblr) to prevent the idea of Edward and multiple Henry's and Virginia's, etc, to not feel like it comes out of left field for the GA?

Those are just some of my thoughts and questions about it all! I'd love to hear your thoughts!

How Does Timeline Theory Stuff Tie Into Other Events In ST and How Does It Tie Into The Themes of ST and How Are The Duffers Going To Pull It Off Without Blindsiding the GA?

YES!!!!!! Hello, anon! I totally understand your concerns, but I actually think that they've set it up in a really great way where it's going to explain a lot of major plot points/gates, and is also going to be tied to the lore of the UD & how it was created (something that the duffers have said that they're definitely exploring in S5 & that there's a LOT left to be revealed about the UD in s5. These are all great questions, let's get into them! So, first of all, what other major plot points is timeline stuff going to help resolve?

Birthdaygate I don't think that people actually forgot Will's birthday. I think that his birthday is likely on a different day and we're seeing two different timelines. Especially with the Duffers joking about making his birthday May 22nd? I think that March 22nd birthday Will and May 22nd birthday Will likely both exist, and that we're either seeing two cmpletely different timelines in S2 vs S4, or Will has switched timelines, or characters like Joyce have switched timelines. One of the biggest criticisms of birthdaygate is "since when does Vecna have the power to make people forget things, and WHY would he do that?" and I AGREE with that crticism. Because I don't think Vecna specifically erased his birthday memories/the memories of others, I think it's far more likely tied to timeline weirdness, especially because in Edward's timeline, the Creel murders happened on Will's March 22nd birthday, making it a significant date for Edward. Edward, who very very likely has TIME-related powers considering that it seems to be Edward who we saw turning back that clock with his mind, and all the imagery of grandfather clocks etc. He’s not erasing memories, he’s messing with time and dates and timelines.

Will's Vanishing I have no doubt that the timeline stuff is tied to Will's vanishing. He's literally dressed like Marty McFly on the night he disappears. Hell, Vecna's grandfather clock was behind Will on the night he vanished. We also here a clock sound when his bike falls, and we hear a clock ticking when El pokes the demogorgon in the void.

We also see two different Wills on the night he vanished, which I've been calling "warm Will" and "cool Will" based on the colour grading. TLDR warm Will is much younger looking whereas Cool Will's hair is longer and he looks more exhausted and is physically older and looks like the vision of Will that Joyce saw when laying on the couch. And two different UD versions of Castle Byers. I'd need to dig and find my poster about this from forever ago, but we get two scenes of Will in the UD in castle byers (one where El finds him in the void and one where we see him singing "should I stay or should I go" to himself) And to top it all off, there's two conflicting articles about his vanishing that seem to be the SAME ARTICLE from different timelines, it's not just two totally separate articles in the same timeline presenting different stories, it's physically the same article with the same title, the same picture, and the same author, just with different content (one of the articles, the one from S1, claims that Will was found as a test subject at Hawkins Lab and that Richard Brenner was running the Narcotics Division, whereas the other article, from S2, claims that Will was found in a cabin in the woods)

There's also the weirdness regarding "how did Joyce and Hopper get out of the UD but more importantly, out of HNL?" And how were they allowed to take him to a normal hospital? HNL was prepared to straight up murder Hopper, and Brenner was convinced that they wouldn't escape the UD. So how did they? We never see them come out of the gate, and we never see them come out of HNL. How did they get through all of the keycard-locked rooms in HNL? But if they simply broke into HNL and took Will out of there, and THAT'S the Will we see at the hospital? In the sense that the Will we saw in the UD with Joyce is a different timeline entirely than the Will at the hospital? It would explain some things for sure, especially considering that the S1 newspaper articles straight up says that Joyce found him as a test subject at HNL. Because as we saw with Terry, breaking into HNL and grabbing a child from the first level and getting out, is much easier than getting out from the bottom floors/UD gate area, especially since there's those guarded/locked hazmat suit areas. And HNL would never have let them go to a normal hospital. It's all extremely weird, and definitely tied to timeline stuff, imo.

How The Blue UD Was Created I talked in this post about the rooms and walls in the Creel house magically changing in certain scenes/retellings, and how I won't be surprised if the Creel house that has the green wallpaper in that one scene during the Massacre At Hawkins Lab Creel house sequences is the Creel house that's currently the UD. We have all of these references to the UD being a "parallel universe," and all of the time references to it, so I won't be surprised if the UD was once a regular timeline, and something happened to it. Like, this house:

And this house:

Are likely physically the same house in the same timeline. And it would tie into explaining why and how the UD looks like Hawkins- because it is. It's just Hawkins in another timeline, a parallel version of Hawkins, a concept that has been referenced in the show since S1.

How Brenner Survived The S1 Demogorgon Attack Brenner should not have survived that S1 demogorgon attack in Hawkins Middle School. It chewed on his face. And we see demogorgons kill prisoners in S4 in half the time that the S1 demogorgon was gnawing on Brenner. That man should not be alive. But maybe he isn't. After all, we have references to both a Martin and a Richard Brenner- maybe one of them died and the other one is the one we see in S4. And even if he did survive, HOW? Timeline theory stuff is very easily connected to this, especially with all the strange parallels between Henry and Edward vs Martin and Richard and the idea of time loops etc and that being tied to Brenner's survival/timeline manipulation allowing him to not have died in S1. What Henry/Edward Was Doing When He Turned Back That Clock?

We literally watched Henry/Edward turn back a clock with his mind onscreen while ranting in 1979 about the constraints of time and escaping said constraints. And we got no explanation for what the outcome of that scene was/what he was doing, and we got no explanation why he was turning back the clock in 1959/what prompted it. We still don't know WHY the grandfather clock is significant to Vecna either. Timeline theory stuff is ABSOLUTELY going to tie into this.

It also answers even MORE questions than this, but hopefully that gives you a base idea of just how connected timeline stuff is to the major unresolved questions and plot points of ST. IMO, timeline theory stuff answers more questions than it creates because the ST team has been very careful about making sure that all of these things are intertwined.

And as far as themes go, with all of the time loop stuff that's referenced in ST, that ties perfectly into the themes regarding the cycle of abuse in ST, and people struggling to escape a time loop much like how it's difficult to escape the cycle of abuse and ALSO difficult to prevent it from repeating.

I think it's also narratively powerful in the sense that it shows us just how differently things could have turned out for people if they'd made one small, different choice, how people like Henry or Edward end up differently based on how their family interacts with them, especially with Mr Clarke's reference to "a timeline where none of this awful stuff ever happened," there's defiinitely a powerful message there about how seemingly small decisions impact peoples' lives, and the cycle of abuse and how people don't realize the impact they're making on other people until it's too late. It brings up the question of nature vs nurture and to what extent a person's circumstances affect who they'll grow up to be, and how differently peoples' lives could have turned out based on minor changes.

You also mentioned "what's the point of exploring that (timeline stuff) instead of exploring our main characters?" to which I say: the two aren't mutually exclusive. They're very much intertwined, exploring things like Will's connection to Edward/Henry, and what actually happened with Will's vanishing, exploring things like "why is the Wheeler family dynamic the way that it is and why does it mirror the Creels so much?" (see: Karen being Daughter-Virginia from the Edward timeline), etc, so I very much think that timeline theory is tied to exploring the characters because one of the core things that makes time weirdness in ST work is the way that the Duffers have approached it from the start- time travel/multiple timelines ISN'T going to be an easy way of just fixing things at the last minute- instead, it's been making things more difficult and complex since the beginning. So, the timeline weirdness has been affecting who these characters are, and how we've come to know them, and how they behave, and how their lives have been/what they've experienced, so it's fundamentally tied to exploring who they are and why they're the way that they are.

You also asked : "And why not make it more obvious in s4? Bc I really do admire how much you've done looking into those blurry ass newspapers, but why wouldn't they plant more seeds for the GA (who aren't combing over the show and those screenshots like a lot of us are on tumblr) to prevent the idea of Edward and multiple Henry's and Virginia's, etc, to not feel like it comes out of left field for the GA?

To which I say: first of all, thank you <33, second of all, how much more obvious can it be? Go to almost any ST comment section or ST youtube video search or GA-written article theorizing on ST, and there's CONSTANTLY people talking about the idea of time travel in ST

Like seriously, Will is dressed like Marty McFly the first time we see him, Back to the Future is playing in S3 in the movie theatre and we specfically hear lines from it about time travel and literally watch scenes from Back to the Future during ST, there's constant references to movies like the Bill and Ted movies, there's CONSTANT CLOCKS, LIKE SERIOUSLY, THE CLOCKS IN S4 ARE NEVERENDING, AND WE LITERALLY WATCHED EDWARD/HENRY TURN A CLOCK BACKWARDS WITH HIS MIND!!! I don't know how much more obvious they can be about time travel references, genuinely, like we literally had an entire letter speech from Hopper in S3 about "turning back the clock," and then also literally watched Henry/Edward physically turn a clock backwards while monologuing about escaping the constraints of time. There's so, so, so many references to time and time travel and timeline weirdness in the show, and not just "super tiny easter egg refrences,' but literally stuff like Back to the Future literally playing on screen, and Nancy saying outloud "your timeline is wrong," and Edward/Henry ranting about time and Hopper wanting to turn back the clock etc etc, it's all stuff that you literally Cannot Miss if you even do a surface level watch of the show! (also my caps here are just Excited ranting, not annoyed <3) And also, most importantly, because all of those things I mentioned earlier, like birthdaygate and the weirdness surrounding Will's vanishing and how it isn't resolved and how the UD was created, are ALL things that the GA has picked up on, even if they don't know the ins and outs of full analysis on it, they understand basic concepts such as "Will's birthday was forgotten," even if they think it's just a production error. They understand that the UD hasn't been fully explained yet, they understand that we haven't gotten the full explanation for Will's vanishing yet. And so, timeline stuff is going to tie into the answers to all THOSE questions.

And even regarding Edward SPECIFICALLY, look at how many GA people are picking up on the references to Eddie "Edward" Munson returning in S5, and the fact that Edward Munson's missing poster parallels Wil's missing poster scene and the fact that Eddie's age is inaccurate on it. The GA is picking up on a lot of the "something is going on with Eddie" stuff, but they just don't quite realize that Edward Munson is meant to deliver subtext about Edward Creel, which is something that is going to be revealed to them in S5, and something that they'll be able to understand, because they'll be like "OHHH, that's why everything seemed so weird about Eddie/why we thought he didn't die, a lot of that was meant to be referencing THIS edward, okay!"

But yeah! I'd absolutely say that the GA is aware of time travel references in ST. I actually think they're more open to the idea than a lot of byler tumblr is LMAO. I hope that helps explain my thoughts! And for me, at the end of the day, even if I couldn't see how it tied into the story, the evidence is there, and so, I feel like even if we don't fully know how that evidence fits into the story, the Duffers definitely do.

For example, imagine telling someone in S1 that all of the clock imagery in S1 was going to be tied to some guy named Henry Creel who shows up in S4! Imagine telling someone in S2 about Starcourt Mall and a secret russian base under Hawkins and how it was going to work narratively.