#caring john winchester

[becauseofthebowties]

JOHN // DEAN in THE WINCHESTERS | 1.09 Cast Your Fate to the Wind

[sweetpapercroissant]

this shot doesn’t make feel anything. at all.

[jackklinemybeloved]

I know it’s been said but I can’t stop thinking about chuck saying his next book is “a little Vonnegut” in 4x18 and dean going “slaughterhouse five Vonnegut or cat’s cradle Vonnegut?”

like imagine you write two dozen paperbacks about Dean Fucking Winchester of all people and then he hits you with “oh you mean the war ptsd one or the daddy issues one?” what do you even say to that. how do you respond with a straight face.

[t00muchheart]

Dean Winchester stood in front of a fire and watched a monster burn while accepting that he would never have a normal life and also got left at a boy’s home by his father for two months after he got caught stealing food to take carrots of his little brother, in that time getting to experience a normal life where he was on the wrestling team and had a girlfriend he wanted to take to the school dance and BOTH OF THOSE THINGS HAPPENED IN THE SAME 12 MONTHS

[milfcodeddean]

on my stanford era dean with a baby soapbox.  especially either emma happens early or john saddles him with a baby half-sibling.  either way, Dad only calls him about hunts and doesn’t pick up often and the passenger seat of the Impala is achingly empty, but the baby needs him even if Sam doesn’t anymore, so Dean keeps going 

[fandomtrashhh]

Updated for Episode 12

So I did a thing. I went back to every episode of The Winchesters and I wrote down everything that Dean has said so far, and I realized moreso than before how EVERYTHING he says not only is the lesson/theme of the episode, but it all also applies to himself. Also, I'm not sure if other people realize this because not everyone is into classic rock as I am, (many of the songs are rock songs) but all the songs also match what the episodes are about. Let's start with episode 1.

Sorry if I overlooked something or for any mistakes, I did not rewatch every episode to make this.

I also apologize for how long this is. If I knew how to add the "read more" on this post I totally would.

Major spoilers for all episodes of the Winchesters ahead!!!

Episode 1, "Pilot": March 3rd, 1972. The day Dad came home from the war, and the day he met Mom. Now I know this story might sound familiar, but I'm gonna put the pieces together in a way that just might surprise you. And in order to do that, I have to start all the way at the beginning.

Obviously, Dean is just starting the story. He tells us this is when John and Mary are going to meet, and he's also foreshadowing what's to come. This is why I have high hopes for this show, because Dean says so in the beginning that even though you think you might know everything, there's really more to the story.

Dean also narrated at the very end of the episode:

What they didn't know is that the Akrida weren't just a threat to Earth, but to all of existence. Now, like I told you, there's gonna be some surprises. Hell, I'm still trying to find all the puzzle pieces myself. But I'll explain everything. And until then, I'll keep picking the music.

Also something to note is that this is the only episode that has a non music related title. I'm 100% sure that if it did have a song related title, it would be "I'd Love to Change the World" by Ten Years After. The beginning, when Dean is first narrating and while John is holding the letter that Dean gave him and pretty much up to the point where John and Mary run into each other, that song is playing. Then at the very end of the episode, when we see Dean in the flesh, it's playing again. I find this VERY interesting, especially since the music applies to everything in this show. This leads me to believe that Dean really is trying to change something because the song literally says "I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do, so I'll leave it up to you." (The song also mentions bees, which I thought was interesting. That could be nothing, though.)

Episode 2 "Teach Your Children Well": The ties that bind a family together can be complicated. Parents raise you, teach you what's right and wrong, and in some instances, how to kill monsters. But no matter who you are, there comes a time when you have to break from them and make your own way. And if you're not careful, things can get pretty ugly.

“Teach Your Children Well” by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. Let me show you some of the lyrics:

“You, who are on the road

Must have a code that you can live by

And so, become yourself

Because the past is just a goodbye

Teach your children well

Their father's hell did slowly go by

And feed them on your dreams

The one they pick's the one you'll know by

Don't you ever ask them, "Why?"

If they told you, you would cry

So just look at them and sigh

And know they love you”

A big theme in this episode is parents, the guy who goes missing at the beginning for one, but mostly about John’s parents. John and Millie argue over John hunting and all around the episode is about kids forging their own paths and how it can cause issues which I feel like can definitely apply to Dean and how he discovers his identity away from his father and how the things his father put them through were wrong and how that caused issues.

Episode 3 "You’re Lost Little Girl": There's no map to being a hunter. No playbook. You gotta follow your gut. But that can only take you so far. Truth is, you can't do it all on your own. You need other people to help guide the way-- your friends, your family. Otherwise you just end up lost.

“You’re Lost Little Girl” is by The Doors. Some lyrics:

“You're lost little girl

You're lost little girl

You're lost, tell me who

Are you?

Think that you know what to do

Impossible? Yes, but it's true

I think that you know what to do

Yeah

Sure that you know what to do”

In this episode, Mary gets taken by a monster and everyone is trying to find her. Mary thinks that she doesn’t need anyone to help her because she’s a good hunter, but she ends up needing them to save her. It’s the same with Dean, Dean is an amazing hunter, but he still needs his friends and his family.

Episode 4, "Masters of War": Fighting the battle between good and evil isn't easy, especially when the first monster you have to face is the one inside yourself.

“Masters of War” is by Bob Dylan.

The lyrics for this song are very meaningful and well done. To put it simply, it’s about war and criticism of war.

“You fasten all the triggers

For the others to fire

Then you sit back and watch

When the death count gets higher

You hide in your mansion

While the young people's blood

Flows out of their bodies

And is buried in the mud”

In this episode, John and Carlos talk about their trauma from the Vietnam War and we really get an insight to how much anger John has in him. John is Dean’s parallel in this episode because Dean has a lot of unresolved trauma and deep rooted anger that is mentioned in Supernatural and it also fits because Dean was used as a weapon in a war against the supernatural from a young age.

Episode 5, "Legacy of a Mind": Spending a lifetime of hunting monsters takes its toll. There comes a time when you gotta let out that pain inside you. If you don't, it'll eat you alive.

The song “Legacy of a Mind” is by The Moody Blues

“He'll fly his astral plane

Takes you trips around the bay

Brings you back the same day”

This can be applied to what happens in this episode where Mary is stuck in her own head and has to face her trauma, and this song pretty much talks about trippy things like the lyrics above.

This applies so well to the episode because this episode deals with the complicated relationship that Mary has with her parents and her dealing with the trauma she has with being trained to be a hunter from a very young age and how it was wrong of them to do that to her, but she still loves her parents. This also applies to Dean, since John taught him about hunting from a young age, the same way Samuel and Deanna did to Mary. Mary is once again the Dean parallel, like she often is in this show.

Episode 6 "Art of Dying": Hunting has a way of changing a person. After a while, right, wrong, good, evil, they all start to look the same. And then it makes you start to wonder, "Who's really the monster here -- them or me?"

This is the only other episode where Dean narrated at the end:

Hunting's not for everyone. You have to be strong, stay sharp, make tough decisions, and it's not easy, but then again, the righteous things never are.

The Art of Dying is by George Harrison:

"There'll come a time when all of us must leave here

Then nothing sister Mary can do

Will keep me here with you

As nothing in this life that I've been trying

Could equal or surpass the art of dying

Do you believe me?"

and then the end of the song goes:

"There'll come a time when most of us return here

Brought back by our desire to be

A perfect entity

Living through a million years of crying

Until you've realized the art of dying

Do you believe me?"

This episode the core four finds a case involving an older hunter buddy of Mary's and it turns out that the monster is the ghost of the hunter's friend who the hunter friend and her group killed because he went too dark in magic. That's how the episode applies to Dean's monologue, along with Lata's fear of turning into someone horrible and letting her anger control her. John also (kinda) confronts his anger in this episode. The monologue also talks about how being a hunter is hard, but doing the right thing never is, which also applies to the characters of this episode, especially Lata. This applies to Dean because he really dealt with feelings like that during SPN, and being angry all the time and feeling like he was a monster, and how he always chooses to do the right thing when it comes down to saving the world, even when it's near impossible to.

Episode 7 "Reflections": There comes a time in every hunt when the fightin' starts. And the difference between winning and losing isn't whether you have the holy water, the wooden stake, or the silver bullet. It's whether you've got the grit to get the job done.

Reflections is by the Supremes:

"Through the mirror of my mind

Through all these tears that I'm crying

Reflects a hurt I can't control

Although you're gone

I keep holding on

To those happy times

Oh, girl when you were mine

As I peer through the windows

Of lost time

Keeping looking over my yesterdays

And all the love I gave all in vain

(All the love) All the love

That I've wasted

(All the tears) All the tears

That I've tasted

All in vain

Through the hollow of my tears

I see a dream that's lost

From the hurt baby

That you have caused"

I think this one represents loss, especially the loss of Henry. Dean's monologue ties into this because in this episode there are multiple instances where the characters show real strength and bravery in order to come out the other side with a win. And this can obviously be applied to Dean and everything he has done and hunted and how brave he had to be to be able to actually get the job done.

Episode 8, "Hang on to Your Life”: Being a hunter, it means living a life of sacrifice-- not a lot of room for dreams. But if you open your heart and get a little lucky, you'll find you gain more than you lose.

Hang On To Your Life is by Guess Who:

“Thinking 'bout it's here and it's real

Wondering how I really should feel

Well you can sell your soul

But don't you sell it too cheap

Hang on to your life, oh life, oh life, oh life, oh life

Hang on to your life

Thinking 'bout betraying a friend

Thinking 'bout delaying the end

Well you can ride the wind

But don't you ride it too high”

This episode is about Carlos’ dream of being a musician and how he had to give that up when he became a hunter. The parts about selling his soul and betraying a friend applies to the band member that Carlos used to play with and how he accidentally made a deal and because he “betrayed” Carlos by selling him out to Loki.

Dean’s monologue applies to the theme of found family in this episode. Even though they’re all a part of this life and had to give up their dreams, there is good that came from it in the form of family and friends, the same way that Dean found himself a family in the midst of it all. This is also the episode where John and Mary decided to get together, again proving that they can find something worthwhile, right before they found the picture of Dean. (Insert Miranda Cosgrove meme)

Episode 9 "Cast Your Fate to the Wind": This isn't how I saw things going when I pushed over that first domino. Thing is, I've had more than a few dances with free will and fate, but as my dad used to say, "Fate is what you make it."

The song here is actually a song that I didn’t know. It’s a jazz song by Vince Guaraldi. Honestly, reading the lyrics to this song make me think SO MUCH of John and who he becomes, and I’m actually going to put in the entire lyrics because I can’t chose one section that I feel is most important:

“A month of nights, a year of days

Octobers drifting into Mays

I set my sail when the tide comes in

And I just cast my fate to the wind

I shift my course along the breeze

Won't sail up wind on memories

The empty sky is my best friend

And I just cast my fate to the wind

That time has a way of changing a man throughout the years

And now I’m rearranging my life through all my tears

Alone, alone, alone

There never was, there couldn't be

A place in time for men like me

Who'd drink the dark and laugh at day

And let their wildest dreams blow away

That time has a way of changing a man throughout the years

And now I’m rearranging my life through all my tears

Alone, alone, alone

So now I’m old, I’m wise, I’m smart

I’m just a man with half a heart

I wonder how it might have been

Had I not cast my fate to the wind

To the wind, to the wind”

Like, come on. This is so John coded in who he becomes and what happens to him. In terms of how this song applies to the episode though, it applies to the theme of fate throughout the episode, which ties in with what Dean says at the beginning. “Fate is what you make it.” This speaks true to John in this episode because he uses the knowledge of his death to his advantage and makes his own fate, which Millie uses the “fate is what you make it” line. I find this episode very interesting because they use the theme of fate in an episode that deals with vampires, and has a whole scene that parallels 15x18 AND Carlos gets to kiss his male love interest. Dean’s monologue at the beginning applies to himself because he’s dealt with fate and free will plenty of times in Supernatural.

I also find it interesting that Dean said that this isn't how he saw things going when he pushed over that first domino, which begs the question of what did he expect? What was his goal in doing all of this? It's also worth noting that immediately after he says that he says "fate is what you make it," saying the two apply to each other, go hand in hand. I don't think it's a stretch to say that whatever his intentions were, whatever he did, had to do with controlling his own fate.

So, just to recap: in an episode where the two main characters are dealing with being in a new relationship and whether or not they want to tell people, one of those main characters dies from a vampire in a direct parallel to the 15x18 confession, and two men have an on screen kiss for the first time, and the entire theme of the episode is fate. That's VERY interesting to me.

Episode 10 "Suspicious Minds": Hunting and happy endings don't usually mix, so when you get your chance, you got to ask yourself, "How far will I go to get it?"

This can be read as a direct tie in to his monologue in the last episode! It's along the same lines!!

Something I've noticed is that each episode I feel like the monologues get deeper and more meaningful, the farther we go the more is revealed.

This Dean monologue ends right as John and Mary get interrupted while they're kissing and Mary says "normal will have to wait another day" while there's a close up of Mary's college application as a mirror to SPN 15x20 with Dean's job application. Something I thought was interesting.

Suspicious Minds is an Elvis Presley song, which I know that the trend here is to include 60's and 70's songs, but knowing the intense meaning of Elvis in the Destiel fandom makes me feel a little unwell knowing Elvis actually gets incorporated into the text.

"Oh, let our love survive

I'll dry the tears from your eyes

Let's don't let a good thing die

When honey, you know I've never lied to you

Mmm, yeah, yeah

We're caught in a trap

I can't walk out

Because I love you too much, baby

Why can't you see

What you're doing to me

When you don't believe a word I say?"

So this is very much talking about one of the big plot points of this episode, a man who tries to bring his dead wife back to life in such desperation that he's willing to kill innocents to do it. Now the parallels drawn in this episode are very intentional to both John and Mary, even including the dialogue they speak after they kill said man and how John thinks that's love and Mary thinks it's horrible and she essentially makes him promise that that will never be them (clear foreshadowing) when in reality, even though it's showing that John already had the mindset of "doing it out of love" as he does in the future, they're both guilty of that. Mary brings John back to life when Azazel kills him, and as we all know, after Mary's death John goes on a revenge mission, wasting his life and putting his children through hell in the process. It's also just a running theme throughout SPN of toxic codependency and how almost every major character is also guilty of going to great lengths to bring the ones they love back. The song lyrics also apply to John and Mary as a romantic relationship as well and can show how their relationship is now and foreshadow what will happen in the future.

The thing that is different about this episode though, is that even though the parallels in this episode can apply to Dean, the actual Dean monologue doesn't, and this is what I find really weird and what I think is honestly one of the biggest indications that Jensen really is writing a fix it fanfiction:

This is the only episode where his monologue doesn't directly apply to himself. Every other episode ties in to his own experiences, except for this one. Dean doesn't go to great lengths to get himself a happy ending. Happy endings for other characters? Absolutely. But not for himself. Why would this be the only episode that doesn't directly relate to him? Well me and a lot of other people think because it really does apply to himself. But not as something he experienced in the past or has knowledge on, but as something he is doing right now. He is actively changing his future, possibly even a future with Cas (I do really think that there's a solid possibility that Destiel will become 100% canon in this show because of how everything is being set up, all of the parallels, and the fact that some of the cast, the social media team, and an executive producer has acknowledged some of these said parallels.) So in the end, how far will Dean go to get his happy ending?

Episode 11 "You've Got a Friend": Being a hunter means always being on the move. But no matter how hard you plan, no matter how hard you work, at a certain point, we all run out of road. It's what we do with those crossroads that define us.

"You've Got a Friend" is a song by Carole King from 1971:

"When you're down and troubled

And you need some lovin' care

And nothin', nothin' is goin' right

Close your eyes and think of me

And soon I will be there

To brighten up even your darkest night

You just call out my name

And you know, wherever I am

I'll come runnin'

To see you again

Winter, spring, summer or fall

All you have to do is call

And I'll be there

You've got a friend"

This represents Betty, and how in this episode she goes from being a potential source of trouble for the gang to becoming an ally, or a "friend" and an inside woman for them. This also can be applied to Carlos and Lata because Carlos was there for Lata and helped support her while Lata told Carlos about her childhood trauma.

In this episode, Dean's monologue is about the choices you make before you die. This can be seen in the choices made throughout this episode by multiple characters (Betty, Mary, John, etc) and this ties in with the song because no matter what choices you make, you'll have your friends by your side, which is true to Dean and just Supernatural as whole with their message of family and found family. Admittedly, I feel like the connection to Dean's voiceover and to the title of this episode aren't as strong as a lot of the previous episodes, but they're still there. (Betty, the "friend," makes a choice to work with the rest of the gang.) At the same time, I believe this can also be another instance of foreshadowing because Dean is dead, he's at that metaphorical cross road, and he's making a choice to go into the past.

As I said above, Lata faced her trauma. This is the 4th or 5th instance of someone on this show confronting their past. At this point, it's become a theme. Why would the show reiterate this point over and over? I think this will tie into Dean's reasons for why he's in the 70's. Not to mention this was yet ANOTHER episode where 2 characters are trapped in a room, and this time because of a shadow monster, and the only way to get out is if one confesses a deep secret. What the fuck.

Something to keep in mind is how much this episode emphasized secrets. This seems to foreshadow the fact that Dean is harboring some huge secrets that will soon be discovered. I think the real question now is how will these secrets be revealed to the audience and to our characters?

Episode 12 "The Tears of a Clown": Hunting is a dishonest business. You lie about who you are, and what you do. But the hardest lies aren't what you tell other people, but what you tell yourself."

The song "The Tears of a Clown" was released in 1967 by Smokey Robinson & The Miracles:

"Now if there's a smile on my face

It's only there trying to fool the public

But when it comes down to fooling you

Now honey that's quite a different subject

But don't let my glad expression

Give you the wrong impression

Really I'm sad, oh I'm sadder than sad

You're gone and I'm hurting so bad

Like a clown I appear to be glad (sad, sad, sad, sad)"

Okay, so this episode gave me a lot of brainrot. What the song is expressing is that even if you seem happy, that doesn't mean you are, and that was the big theme of this episode. Just because you seem okay or even think you're okay, that doesn't mean you are. With John, that applies to his anger issues and his unresolved issues with being charged for a murder he didn't commit. For Mary, it's the issues she already has, plus being unhappy in her relationship with John because she thinks he's using their relationship as an escape, and this also applies to her because even though she got accepted into college, she hadn't really taken any steps towards a normal life since then. In general, this episode was about a clown who lures emotionally vulnerable people into his circus tent so he can force them to be "happy" even though they aren't, like we saw with Roger.

This can very much apply to Dean's voice over, because the characters in this episode, including the clown, are actively lying to themselves.

The thing is, like a lot of Dean's voice overs, it's intentionally vague. He could be referring to literally anything. In the context of this episode, it makes the most sense that this is referring to Dean's anger issues and the fact that throughout the entirety of Supernatural, Dean oftentimes told himself and the people around him that he was okay, even though he wasn't. But at the same time, these voice overs and one like this in particular can be interpreted in different ways. What Dean says about facing the lies you tell yourself can apply to sexuality. Dean could be talking about not only his mental and emotional issues, but he could also be referencing being in love with Cas. At this point, Destiel happening feels like genuine build up. Now all we have to do is wait a couple more days to see if it all pays off.

[musicloveop3s]

Brain is brrr-ing

I'm rewatching SPN and S2 EP6 gave me a very interesting idea that i, myself, am unable to do for the lack of willpower.

So Jo, Ellen's daughter, asked dean his first memory of his dad, to which he explains being taken out shooting, bottles on a fence, and "bulleye-ing it" (he shot each one perfectly) and the way his father smiled at him.

Now imagine, we hear Johns side of raising the boys, my intial thought is that in the beginning he would have plently of proud father TM stories but the more he talks about raising the boys and huntin' the less memories he has (because he wasn't present). He's start talking like he reading aloud a report (he's some kind of vet, served twice?) and its because he is, he is repeating from his perspective reports/updates dean had given him, but it's like he doesn't even realize how few memories of the boys he actually has.

like first girlfriend? Most parents can tell you their kids puppy love story by heart (i assume based off what ive heard, these are not accurate stats) and hell they are hunters! so maybe it would be he knows his sons preferred weapon of choice! but he doesn't, he knows what weapon they were required to use in order to kill a monster but he doesn't know what weapon they will without a doubt always try first.

and slowly as this story/interview/whatever continue you stop hear about sam and dean and only hear about his hunts, you only hear em if they helped out (that vamp nest) and its so perfectly easied into that the reader (and assumingly John) dont quite notice the shift from the boys to hunts, I would love to hear John Winchester description of before mary died - day mary died - borderline sewerslidal father - not really functional alcoholic - learning to be hunter father - commanding chief - death story cuz we hear Sam's resentment story, get flashbacks of Dean's life as well as hearing Dean's "my dad is my hero" story.

Did john think of his kids? or was it more like a when they weren't there then they didn't exist but when they were there in front of him they meant the world?

[ilostmyshoe28]

Bobby, driving Sam and Dean: So, how was your day? Sam: We almost got surprise adopted! Bobby: What? Dean: We almost got kidnapped. Bobby: Oh, okay. Bobby: *slams on the breaks* WAIT WHAT?!

[suncaptor]

Like I think it's funny people jump to "Sam doesn't know Dean" when Sam shows shock at Dean's behavior rather than "Sam is reacting to Dean showing a different side the role he generally plays which reveals a history the show is telling us of how they interact and define each other."

[shallowseeker]

My friend says John wasn't really there in that season??

Yay, Lebanon! Yes, I've seen this theory floating around, and I think it's a good one. I think the theory came about because the reuniting of the four doesn't include a satisfyingly obvious confrontation. Overall, though, I think it has the subtle bones of how the dynamics would work between them, and they're fascinating.

As for it being "real" of not, my personal view is that him waking up in his car lends to it being real. I'm 100% behind the other interpretation as well, though!

If you'll humor me, I wanna ramble about the dynamics. I have dreams of writing fic about this someday, so puzzling it out is something of a pastime for me:

///

First, I read somewhere (I think it was @queermania) that 14x13 Lebanon as an episode is too ambitious. The idea of Lebanon-the-town being its own character deserved a separate episode, and the idea of John returning needs its own episode. And I agree completely. Really, the episode doesn't have time for satisfying confrontations.

///

==It's not revenge porn, and that's a little disappointing==

Overall, think the fandom balks at John's return because at worst, what we want is reciprocal revenge to be inflicted on John. At best, we crave a verbal sparring where he's taken to task for his past crimes.

Lebanon is neither of these.

So, it's easier to wrap up John's "best behavior" as ghostly wish fulfillment, and that certainly works for me. It's satisfying. (I also subscribe to the theory that Dean wishes for John in order for Mary to be happy.)

But for me, the long and the short of it is that I think it's more interesting and very telling that John's on his best behavior here. That implies...interesting things.

Mary's presence grounds him, and even then, he's still subtly passive-aggressive in ways I adore. I think their interactions have built-in conflict, and I think it works as is! I even think him catapulting back into his own time has a dark implication (below).

///

==Mary & John==

Mary does not batter John; she greets him with relieved kisses. I think that makes sense for Mary given what we know about her. Her anger manifests as cold and controlled. She does not tend to fly off the handle.

The past haunts her. Mary last saw John on a regular night at home. They had dinner together, kissed their kids goodnight, and went to bed with baby monitors and all. She misses that guy. She loves the man he was, his best self. Not his worst self. She read his journal, but that's something she knows in her head, not her heart. It'll take a while to square that man with this man. And even then, she might just try to love him through it. I think Mary is the kind of flawed, frustrating woman who might make excuses for John.

She rationalizes. She views herself as having made a lot of mistakes with the boys, too. John had "drunken rages and neglect," sure, but in season 12, she almost got Cas killed, lied to the boys, and then she became Mary!natural-born killer and almost shot them. She's going to rationalize.

Team hunting dynamics. I suspect that so long as they're not in a Particularly Dangerous Mission Mode, the dynamic is going to be Mary bossing John, not the other way around. She might square the past by expecting him to do penance to the boys as a family protector and attack dog. I actually think Mary might mistreat him! And she'd definitely put the things on him that she can't take. My thesis is that I think she'd wind up treating John a lot like how she treated Cas, mid-season 12 in First Blood. If they hunt together, they'd have to get to know each other as hunters, which would lead to a frustrating tug-of-war. (John cries a lot, even in the original run, and Mary goes stone-cold. She's gonna hurt his feelings and wound his pride. It's going to be tumultuous.) I think Mary would become the control freak, because she's the one who is now tied to the current life, the one with a hunting network, and the one with superior knowledge, etc.

EXAMPLES from cut scripts & aired transcripts

Mary & Cas in 12x01 Keep Calm and Carry On & 12x02 Mamma Mia:

Here, I think Mary instinctually moves to put familial duty & responsibility on Cas. I think she intuitively recognizes him as Dean's spouse, and so, his strength & support are available by-proxy to her.

I know this is mostly indirect evidence, but I suspect this is exactly how she'd treat John within the world of hunting.

///

Mary & Cas in 12x09 First Blood:

MARY: You left them. CASTIEL: No, I… Dean told me to go. The woman-- MARY: The one you lost? CASTIEL: I didn’t. I… I thought that she-- MARY: Stop making excuses. [Cas looks down, and Mary sighs heavily]

///

Back to John

I can imagine Mary making digs about him not knowing critical hunting fundamentals, and he'd make digs that he wasn't raised with as many resources as she was (a petulant shot at her lies). I find it more likely that he would sull up and eventually explode at her. Mary lied to him. That still hurts.

The critical blowup would happen when John finds out that Mary was even hunting while the boys were small. "I thought you were cheating. This is worse!" Mary didn't even give him a chance to fight for himself or to access the tools and knowledge to help defend his family. (She didn't trust him!) He never had the chance to even try! Etc etc. Messy!

I think Mary would get cold and judgy. Like Dean, she could even fall into idealizing/romanticizing her other hunting partnerships to make digs at John's shortcomings ("AU Bobby/AU hunters/the boys/Cas don't make mistakes like this. They've never let me down," etc etc.) Regardless of John's past crimes, I think she'd fall into expecting too much of John...I'm 99% certain of that. It's so juicy and crunchy!

AU Bobby? Sadly, I think with John back, she would drop AU Bobby like a hot potato. Sorry. Sucks for AU Bobby, but it seems like they were already broken up/going their separate ways in 14x11 Damaged Goods. (Lebanon is 14x13.) The hardened AU Bobby, unlike OG Bobby, would probably like John, which would be a horrible feeling for the boys.

///

==Sam & John==

Sam skirts around John's past misbehavior. It's uncomfortable. Two seconds later, John tries to get a rise out of Sam.

Sam puts it aside and chooses to love John anyway, to try to start fresh where they're at. I think that makes sense for Sam, because Sam likes to cut away and compartmentalize the parts of life he doesn't like. Sam dissociates. Sam doesn't want to talk about it. But I also think that, over time, John would keep digging until he found a pressure point to try and get Sam to explode at him. John is prodding at Sam to talk in a similar way that Sam prods Dean to talk.

By the way, I think John's apology is right in line with the tearful crybaby John we saw on our screens in seasons 1 and 2, too. John was volatile, but he wasn't always unemotional. (Remember when Pastor Jim died?) That's why he always felt so unpredictable as a caretaker.

SAM: Yeah, Dean and I tried to make that once. JOHN: I, um… I remember. I screwed up with you a lot, didn’t I? SAM: No, that’s okay. JOHN: No, it’s not. Sammy, tell me the truth. SAM: I don’t want to talk about that. JOHN: You didn’t have a problem talking about it before you left. SAM: Dad… for me? That fight… that was a lifetime ago. I don’t even remember what I said, and – I mean… yeah. You know what? You did some messed-up things. But I don’t… I mean, when I think about you… [voice breaks] and I think about you a lot… I don’t think about our – our fights. I think about you… I think about you on the floor of that hospital. And I think about how I never got to say goodbye. [JOHN puts his hand on SAM’s shoulder.] JOHN: Sam. Son. I am so sorry. SAM: I’m sorry, too. But you did your best, dad. You – you fought for us, and you loved us, and… that’s enough. [JOHN tearfully smiles at SAM and pats his shoulder.]

Team hunting dynamics. I think John would at times reach to undermine Sam's leadership, especially with the AU hunters. I think this could manifest in him being contrary to Sam's ideas. It'd be kinda like how AU Bobby balked at Sam's leadership skills, but to the power of ten.

If Mary's present, all bets are off. John submits to her. But if Mary's not there, he probably jumps right into questioning and nitpicking Sam's decisions. When that doesn't work, he approaches Sam through cold, hard logic, and that could potentially get Sam on his side. Sam is very swayed by moral relativism, and John would appeal to that. "We've all done things we regret." And once John digs up enough of Sam's mistakes, I think Sam would be swayed to give John another chance in order to avoid being faced with the dreaded hypocrisy.

Tension points: I don't think John would like Rowena at all, and that would be a point of tension between them. He'd make so many snide digs about her, mark my words. Rowena would hate John, too though, and that's where 90% percent of the fun would actually come from.

///

==Dean & John==

Dean is wary around John. There's no better word for it. John's presence makes Dean's home at the bunker feel insecure, like the ground is crumbling beneath his feet. The bunker is Dean's house, and he's already feeling shaky by having AU hunters there. At the point of Lebanon, Dean's got Michael locked in his head, pounding away at a locked door.

Lebanon happens right after Prophet & Loss, where Sam resorted to battering Dean with his fists to try to get him to care about himself. Dean's feeling extra, extra vulnerable. He'd be like a cornered animal with John in the house.

///

In Lebanon, Dean is upfront with John about their living situation:

JOHN: Then it’s all true. God, the devil, you boys smack in the middle. Now you live in a secret bunker with an angel and Lucifer’s kid. DEAN: Yeah.

Later, John is passive-aggressive with Dean, too, but it takes on a completely different dimension than it does with Sam. Sam and Dean both live with, "an angel and Lucifer's kid," but Dean is the one John "suspects something of," and so, like a gossiping church lady, he pokes. About relationships.

He's trying to figure out if Dean is...attached.

DEAN: Dad, we pulled you here. JOHN: No, son. My fight. It was supposed to end with me, with Yellow Eyes. But now you – you are a grown man, and I am incredibly proud of you. I guess that I had hoped, eventually, you would… get yourself a normal life, a peaceful life, a family. [DEAN nods. He smiles.] DEAN: I have a family. [JOHN smiles.] JOHN: Yeah. Alright. What’s next? DEAN: We eat. [DEAN leaves for the kitchen.]

Do I think John accepted that Dean has a family? Yeah, I actually kinda do. I think this conversation is just John confirming suspicions he already had. And Dean is patient with him about it. I suspect Dean's patience would turn into holding him at arm's length, and John would be spun by that.

I don't think John would act a homophobe. John liked Lee. Competence wins out for John. I favor John not being cartoonishly homophobic on a personal level so much as a societal one. I can see him rationalizing the thing with the nuns as him being scared of Dean enduring a difficult lifestyle re: the time periods they respectively grew up within.

But now? With all this acceptance? There's less reason to do that.

Household dynamics: I think that, right out of the gate, John does some boundary crossing. It's implied in the finale script that when John was with Mary, John was the cook. (He cooks pot roast!)

Seeing this human, empathetic side of John would be devastating. John tends to take over the kitchen, and Dean feels pushed out. John is funny, just as Mary said he was. It'd be like entering an upside-down world. (And if John is like this now, why weren't Sam and Dean enough for him to even try?)

///

John & Cas & Jack

Because John is doing public "penance," and because Dean is sort-of icing him out, John would "work on" those closest to Dean: Cas and Jack. I can see John trying to suck up to Cas and Jack with a surprising degree of success!

Cas

With Cas, it'd be a rocky start. Maybe it starts when John outright demands that he wants Cas's truck when he sees it in the garage. Then, he's aggressive towards Cas and suspicious of his angelicity.

But ultimately, Cas's competence and gray-rock method of communicating win John over, and when he wins John over, he wins him over in a big way. John even seems to trust Cas more than Sam and Dean, and that gets ugly.

Oddly enough, I think he'd take to Cas way more readily than he'd take to someone like Rowena. Cas is a soldier. When John learns that, he tries to awkwardly soldier-bond with Cas, using marine lingo and making crass male-bonding jokes at Dean's expense. (Super weird, super disrespectful, and super awkward!)

There's also some stuff in Cas that reminds John of Henry Winchester, which makes it even more complicated. Like Mary, he senses Cas's spousal dynamic with Dean, and because of Cas's angelic strength, he also expects too much of Cas. (Poor Cas!)

I think the result would be Dean and Cas having big emotions about it, because Dean needs to get out of the bunker a lot, and he'd cling extra hard to Cas as a reflex to John's pushy "trying to steal my best friend," stuff.

Jack

I think John'd spoil Jack, kind of like he did with Adam. Jack represents a clean slate, a new chance to bond with a son. John wouldn't spoil him in a lovey-dovey way, either.

I think he'd key into what Jack is missing, and provide the, "You did good today/that was nice work/I'm proud of you," stuff. Jack values blunt honesty and tough love, so long as it's paired with a sliver of respect. John could worm his way in so fast if he really wanted to!

Dean would probably hit his limit with John trying to get close to Jack and step in. But Jack would painfully point out that when Cas came back, Dean changed, too.

"You said it yourself Dean. 'We're gonna make mistakes. Nobody's perfect. Right?' You said, 'We can get better. Every day, we can get better.' Why can't he?"

(This, of course, comes back to bite Jack in the ass.)

Due to where Lebanon occurs in the timeline, Jack is human-ish, but when John discovers the AU Michael situation and what Jack's Nephilim capabilities were, John gets pragmatic at Jack's expense. Perhaps, they decide to rescue Adam together, to secure the OG Michael to fight the AU Michael? I can come up with all sorts of terrible things John and Jack might get up to together "for the greater good."

///

On the whole, John is intel-gathering. Under the guise of bonding, he's collecting a list of Dean's, Sam's, Cas's, and Mary's worst mistakes to use as ammo and rationalization...if he ever needs it.

And the thing is, John's bonding is simultaneously genuine. He's defensive and damaged, but some of his better intentions are so ugly because of that.

///

==John goes back to the past, though. What are those pesky implications you mentioned?==

Well, like I said in the beginning, in the actual episode, John wakes up in the past. That softly implies it was "real." He tells a worried past!Dean that he, "had a good dream."

But the implication is that John is now even more certain that his revenge is the righteous path. Look how safe and strong Sam & Dean turned out! He's convinced now: even though he hurt them, his methods were the right ones.

///

That got long was WAY more than you asked for, but I'm not sorry. Thank you for the ask! It allowed me to brainstorm about some things I've been kicking around in my head for a good while.

(Text Attributions// Supernatural scripts here via @spnscripthunt. Transcripts are located here via SPNWiki. Visit their Tumblr to donate.)

[stxar-pvnk]

I wanna make a fic about runaway Sam who runs away when he's 9/10 because John hits him and the only place he thinks to stay at is bobbys.

They've only met twice and it was brisk and short. Nothing nice. Sam didn't even know if the guy would open the door for him!

But still, he hitchhikes his way to bobbys house exhaustedly making his way to the front door and knocking.

Out comes bobby with a scruffy lookin' beard and a used, weared cap, looking down at a bruised and near dead on his feet kid.

Bobby grabs him by his shirt dragging him in

"Im-im sorry uncle bobby- I just-I didn't have anywhere to go and dad got bad again, but he got bad again to me-" bobby cut the boys rambling off.

He had though that this had been a bad hunt gone wrong but..

"Your daddy did this to you?" Looking at the purple bruise on the boy cheek

Sam looked away horrifyingly embarrassed. Ofcourse bobby wouldn't believe him. John was his friend.

But Sam nodded anyway his lips pulled back in a grimace

"Son of a BITCH! I'm gonna kill that bastard." The older man scowled his knuckles going white from how tight he was holding himself.

"You.. believe me." His voice came out as a whisper

"Course I do. C'mon kid, you look like you could use a nap."

For the next few years (11 to be exact)

Bobby taught Sam everything he knew. Archery, researching, demons,vampires, wearwolves, how to fight (with more parental concern for its use and not just to hunt.)

When Sam had asked when he was 12 to go on a hunt bobby said no.

2 years later anexhausted bobby complied with his wishes and went on their first hunt.

Bobby couldn't be prouder when Sam comes up to him, barely a scratch on him

"See! I-i listened to that trick you taught me and-and I sweeped his leg, dad that was amazing!" Sam beamed like an excited animal

They both stilled in the car

"..oh." Sam looked out the window exceptionally embarrassed by his words.

Bobby was a gruff, not all talk about his feelings guy.

So when he said

"..you can call me that, boy if you wanna."

They left it at that..

Sam was enrolled into school taking the name Samuel singer.

He felt...nice about that.

But not all things worked out how we wanna.

And proof of that was the impala rocking up out of the blue in years on Bobby's property.

Sam was sixteen now, working on a car bobby had just newly gifted him for his birthday when he heard the car pull up.

"Sorry guys-we don't do walk ins her-" Sam stood in his tracks.

There stood a 20 year old concerned dean and a half guilty half relieved John.

Sam knew what his first instinct was

"daAAAD!" he yelled running into the house to grab his shotgun, bobby thinking the exact same thing.

Bobby walked out cocking his shotgun and aiming it at john's head

"What are you doing here." Bobby demanded.

"I want my son back, bobby. Now."

"Your son?"

"Yeah. My son." John sneered

"I'm his daddy. I cook him food for school. I have him *in* school. Couldn't say the same for you. Sam's good here. Actually no. Sam's great here. Cause hes my kid. Because he's *Samuel singer*, bastard." Bobby growled

Sam walked out and dean finally got a good look at the once scrawny boy.

Samuel had grown muscle, was probably just under 6ft and had grown out his hair funnily enough. If this was a lighter circumstance dean would punch his little brothers arm, ruffle his hair and tell him what an idiot he was.

But..it wasn't.

Sam was looking around with suspicious eyes, his body stuff and his arms crossed over his chest.

6 years it had taken. 6 years it had taken to find this kid. And he was right here with bobby. John had refuse to look here, after the last time he had seen bobby they had an falling out, presuming he would never help the winchester family again. He was indescribably wrong. He willed down the feeling of betrayal as he stared at the kid with a kind of shock in his eyes.

The kid called bobby dad now, went to school, had friends, had a social life.

"Sammy-" John turned over to see his son and Sam didn't even flinch his eyes just narrowed

"Sam." He corrected

Dean stepped up showing his hands in surrender as bobby Highers his gun properly

"Hey-hey look. Sam. Dad messed up. We get it i-c'mon kid. We want to take you back home you know? You've—you got you driving licence buddy? I heard about that, you wanna drive the impala the way there?" Dean was pleading, his knees about to buckle, if Sam wanted him to beg he was ready to put his pride aside.

"Dean.."

"Sammy please."

"No. I can't. Me and dad-"

"Bobby." Dean harshly snapped

"Dad." Sam snarled.

Johns jaw clenched and Sam's did too

"Your only so forgiving because he never hit you dean." Sams lip quivered as he fought back angry vicious tears.

John took a step and bobby aimed the gun it hitting johns forehead.

"You touch my kid and it's gonna be the last thing you do, John winchester. And I don't neccisarily want to be lighting a corpse on fire when me and Sam are going for a late birthday dinner." Bobby glared.

I will be writing this ff, 1st chapter will be coming out soon (today or tomorrow.)

[allweneedsa]

i was a clown and watched an hour long episode just to see someone appear on screen for 20 seconds 🤡 (BUT HEY HE’S BACKK)

[floating-on-avalon]

Happy Father's Day to everyone but these two:

[sammygender]

YALL ARE NOT SERIOUS PEOPLE no way i’m looking at the tumblr tag for spn 7x03 aka the sam centric flashback episode dealing with his childhood trauma and how he feels like he’s a freak and everyone is just posting about DEAN. dean and his stupid fucking pie. dean winchester used to be my guy! genuinely! s2-3 i truly thought i was a deangirl! But you people (plus this show atp lmfao) are making me hate him😭

[supernaturalkickparty]

Things that make me chew glass

[arabella-s-arts]

The Winchester's is really getting it's revenge on Supernatural by making all of its character's bisexual, while Supernatural couldn't even bother with one (canonically) bisexual character.

Love that for them.