#crosstagging political tags so this is seen.

[exoflash]

Okay. I'm gonna make a post here.

Reminder to PLEASE tag your US politics. A lot of people use tumblr as an escape, and there's also people on this site who are not from the US. This way, it can be easier for these people to filter that content.

[sophieinwonderland]

Another day, another anti-endo crosstagging hate and misinformation into pro-endo tags

Okay, let's go. To start off with, I do not normally like posting endogenic content in DID and OSDD tags, but at this point, I feel it's necessary. @constellation-archives was politely asked by @ecosystim to remove the pro-endo tags from their post. This was their response:

By this same logic, it would be irresponsible to allow their misinformation to go uncorrected in the tags they shared it in. So I will be posting my rebuttal in every tag Constellation-Archives tagged in their original post. If you do not like seeing this type of content in the DID and OSDD tags, please request that @constellation-archives cease crosstagging with pro endo tags. Thank you. 😁

Now, onto their post.

First, if we're going to have a conversation about endogenic systems, we need to actually define what a "system" is. With the broadest definition, a "system" consists of all of biological human's personalities and subpersonalities, as seen in internal family systems.

The way system is being used here is in reference to something more specific, which we'll call a "plural" or "multiple" systems. Or, what a psychologist might describe as "system of dissociated parts." All of these are functionally the same thing, whether a system's members identify as parts, people, alters or headmates.

As a general rule, each headmate in a plural system must be both autonomous (able to act outside the host's control) and self-conscious (having a sense of self and identity.) That seems like a pretty straight-forward definition that we should be able to agree on.

Now, there are a few things to know about the theory of structural dissociation.

It's a theory. It's not confirmed, and psychology is riddled with theories that were later disproven. See most of what was written by Freud. While it contains some truth, it should not be blindly taken as fact. One of the claims made by this theory, as I understand, is that systems with OSDD will only have one ANP (a non-trauma-holder.) This contradicts the experiences of many OSDD systems.

The data that it's based on isn't substantial. There is a lot of research into DID, but next to none into OSDD. There is a growing body of research into endogenic systems but most of it happened AFTER The Haunted Self was written. It's likely that ongoing research will challenge various aspects of this theory in coming years, with the science of multiplicity quickly evolving.

Most importantly though, the authors of the theory of structural dissociation do not endorse the claims constellation-archives is trying to tell you they do.

The above is a paper where they acknowledge that spirits communicated with by mediums and states created in hypnotized subjects may be experiences of self-conscious dissociated parts of the personality. This would, by the previous definitions of systemhood, be an endogenic plural/multiple system.

Endogenic systems are directly acknowledged as possibe by the creators of the theory of structural dissociation.

I feel like 1 and 3 could have been combined into a single point. Regardless, this claim doesn't make much sense. Most endogenic systems are not claiming to have DID or OSDD. Importantly, while someone can cause themselves to gain symptoms of a disorder psychologically, they still have those symptoms. If someone thinks they have an illness that gives them a rash, the rash is real, even if the illness isn't.

One might convince themselves they have Tourette's and experience tics. In this case, whether the Tourette's is real or not, the Tics are.

If multiplicity is a symptom that's generated due to psychological reasons, the multiplicity is still real. It's not fake multiplicity.

Regarding number 2, a growing number of psychologists are recognizing that voices experienced in psychotic disorders are also dissociated parts of systems, that are autonomous and conscious enough to respond to psychotherapy. And these dissociated agents are not always caused by trauma.

Based on recent research, some DID specialists have made the case that voice hearers with Schizophrenia are experiencing a dissociative subtype of the disorder, and that the acknowledgment of the dissociative symptoms is integral to successful treatment.

After this, they then go on to try to convince people that endogenic systems are dangerous and that our existences are harmful. I'm not going to address these claims as they aren't scientific and have nothing to back them up besides anecdotes. There are harmful individuals in any group, and their claims of demonizing persecutors or pushing system hopping have also been done by traumagenic systems, as is the belief in alter death. (In fact, it being called "alter death" should be a tip off that it's not an endogenic thing, given that many endogenic systems don't like the term "alter." And you don't see people calling it a "headmate" death.)

Again, I don't want to be posting syscourse stuff in the traumagenic and OSDD/DID tags. But unfortunately, many members of the anti-endo hate movement have decided that endogenic systems cannot have safe spaces to exist, and they invade our tags with lies, hate and misinformation, not caring how many people they hurt in the process.

I see no other alternative than to crosstag my rebuttal to the same exact tags in an effort to correct their misinformation. If you don't want my responses to these posts in these tags anymore, please ask @constellation-archives to not post their misinformation in the endogenic and plural tags anymore. If they remove the pro endo tags from the original post, I'll remove the DID and traumagenic tags from this one. Until then, this rebuttal will use the same exact tags as they used so that the people who saw their misinformation can read this, with links to actual academic sources.

[mc-lukanette]

I've seen people complain that salters 'ruined the reputation of lukanette', and turned it into nothing more than a spite ship, and I'd like to know what you think of this? Personally, I can't really say that I agree, but I also don't actively look for lukanette content unless it's from you, and since you're the biggest lukanette shipper I know, I thought you might perhaps know where this whole idea came from, or might have an opinion on it.

Firstly, aww, that’s so sweet that you go to me for your prime Lukanette content! Thank you!

As for the question itself, the way I look at it is like... good riddance?

That might not seem to make sense, but my basic point is that people who say that most likely didn’t ship Lukanette in the first place. It’s easy to bash the “sub-ship” of a show because the main one exists, so you’ll hear substandard arguments all the time like, “it’s not endgame so you shouldn’t ship it,” “you just don’t get the show,” and of course, “you just like Lukanette to spite the love square.”

Attacking the fans of something to attack a show/ship is the “easy” way out while simultaneously being the laziest. If those people want to let others dictate their opinion on a ship/show/whatever when the people who follow said thing have literally nothing to do with it in terms of how it plays in canon, that’s their problem and I’m personally glad not to have them around, y’know? Good and bad fans exist for basically everything, and allowing a side to change one’s opinion in that way isn’t the way to go.

I could easily list a bunch of examples of bad experiences I’ve seen Lukanette shippers have with love square shippers, but I don’t, and I don’t judge the love square based on my opinion of Lukanette (I also stay in my lane by not crosstagging but that’s a different topic altogether).

Yes, I don’t like the love square. Yes, I wish Lukanette were endgame instead. Yes, some of my fics will contain varying amounts of salt depending on my mood (though I keep it pretty sugary on mc-lukanette for the most part, and one of my No Context November posts even has Chat Noir being best buds with Ladybug and encouraging her relationship with Luka), and sometimes my ideas involve Adrien and Marinette breaking up in some way (whether it was on friendly terms or not is up in the air; depends on what I can get out of the idea).

All of those factors together does not mean that I ship Lukanette for the sake of spiting anyone or any ship. I just adore Lukanette and it’s obviously going to squeeze its way into whatever I write because why would I not put it into everything???

What I think happens is that people see Lukanette fics having salt about Adrien/the love square and then make a connection where there isn’t one, believing that Lukanette shippers only ship it because they’re salty about the love square.

That is flat-out not true. There are multiple Lukanette shippers who enjoy both Lukanette and the love square at the same time, then fell off of the love square when it stopped working for them.

There’s an inherent bias that comes from disliking something. Presuming these people who say “salters ruined Lukanette” never shipped it in the first place, they’d be more likely to see other people talk about how Lukanette shippers did x/y/z and then just roll their eyes like, “of course they did.” If they did ship it and then fell off, it was just a matter of influence they chose to participate in, because the one meant to curate their experience is them, and as this very lovely and polite anon points out (as they don’t know what the fuss is about with “salters ruining Lukanette” because they’re not seeing it), exposure to things one doesn’t like about a fandom won’t happen if precautionary measures are taken, and the way people absorb certain shows/ships happens to cause them to see content that gives the a particular viewpoint.

But one they see that content, it is their choice to let it seep in and change their opinion. I, for example, take measures myself (more because I want to avoid particular fics or people writing Luka in specific ways) and I basically never see anything I don’t like. On the off chance I do, it’s my fault because I didn’t take proper steps, but I’m also not going to use whatever I saw as a reason to generalize and say that everyone is like that. I just say it’s this-or-that person and I move on because I think it’s incredibly rude to see a few people (regardless of how “loud” they are and how much of a fuss they’re making) and go, “okay, it’s ruined for me.”

(Side note too that there are popular salt fics out there that happen to be Lukanette endgame, and those AUs typically have tags that can be blocked; I find it really weird that people get on the case of “salty” people - who are usually generalized for “not seeing the good in things” - for complaining/”ruining” something when they themselves are being salty at the salters).

Something I think people miss when equating Lukanette with salt is that the reason Lukanette is often endgame in salt fics is that Luka makes Marinette happy; he is her “light in the darkness,” as it were, and apologized the moment he thought he’d offended her. Salt fics touch on the fact that Marinette gets hammered a lot by the show, but Luka doesn’t have that negative effect on her, being so far removed from the overwhelming dumpster fire that gets thrown at Marinette that he can just be the source of comfort that she needs.

Calling Lukanette a “spite ship” is also laughable when Lukanette shippers that I’ve known/seen have perfectly understandable reasons for shipping it, and that’s not what a spite ship entails. Salters didn’t “turn” Lukanette into anything, and suggesting such things feels more like a false attack to scare those people into stopping whatever they’re doing just because the person “attacking” personally dislikes it.

I can write Lukanette whether I’m salting about Adrien or not, regardless of if he’s there, and any ship I give to Adrien is not to keep him away from Marinette; I ship ships because I think the characters making up that ship have a genuinely good connection.

Could there be a discussion of why whatever% of salt fics end in Lukanette endgame? Of course, and maybe it really does come down to the fact that Lukanette shippers happen to see the show in a different/more critical way and want to get their frustrations out by writing fanfiction that flips the treatment of Marinette on its head.

But... So what?

Fact of the matter is, Lukanette is a tiny minority of the fandom (if you go by AO3 statistics, there are like 1000 Lukanette fics - excluding the love square tag - and 20000 love square fics; if you go by the amount of people following the tags on Tumblr, Lukanette is a lot closer, but still), and I think it’s really silly to say it’s ruined because x amount of people (who definitely do not represent the entire Lukanette fandom; no one does) decided to make it endgame in a salt fic or said somewhere that they felt it was better than the love square.

[vampish-glamour]

Tbh fandom on tumblr (or any social media) is toxic. It's not fun loving and memes anymore. It's become a shitshow of discourse. I like what I like, therefore I'll post about it, and I'm not explaining it to anyone. My interests might not be what others like even if it is in the same fandom. I don't follow fan blogs/tags anymore because of the toxicity. People go in search of things that upset them and then wonder why their online experience is awful, and that's where so much of the discourse comes from. Not to mention, most fan blogs aren't even centered around the fandom anymore. They post discourse (related to the fandom or real world stuff). I don't know many people that follow fan blogs for discourse. We want memes! We want discussions! That, and they crosstag like it's a bad habit; discourse in with fun stuff, then get all pissy when people say "hey, don't post discourse in the fan tags". It's their blog and they can do what they want, but the least they could do is make a separate blog for being a killjoy. Fiction isn't even worth arguing over because there are so many real world, actual important things to discuss, and not which fictional character is whatever identity. Long rant, but thanks for reading.

I agree. I’ve luckily not had much experience with super toxic sides of fandoms. Considering the main stuff I was involved in was things relating to Disney and musical theatre, the worst it got was people fetishizing gay men and making everything about “The Gay”. And theatre kids. Then I got into the good omens fandom which made me realize that the internet really loves making a big deal of gender and it drove me nuts to be constantly seeing blatant sexism and ignoring gender non conformity, so now I’ve stepped away from being involved in fandom 😂 I float around but I don’t really get too involved because it’s just a shitshow and after looking at other fandoms as well I can tell just how much it revolves around “wokeness” for lack of better word.

There was also the sims community which I thought about participating in but it’s so fucking cliquey. They claim it’s not but it is. And they tend to be very political.

That’s been my own experience, but I’ve heard much worse as far as discourse and cliques go. I’ve definitely seen the “it’s my blog I’ll do what I want!!” Thing, which I get, but at least don’t cross tag lol. There’s a reason I keep my pissy posts about the good omens fandom out of the good omens tags and that’s because I know people don’t want to see it. (And because I don’t want to be attacked for being a “exorsexist” or whatever)

But yeah I feel like I’ve been pretty lucky so far with not encountering the real toxic stuff, and maybe that’s because of the type of fandoms I usually gravitate towards. It just really sucks that fandom has gone so downhill when it’s supposed to be a place for people to discuss their interests when they have nobody else to discuss them with.

[nightqueendany]

One thing I’d like to ask of the fandom before Season 8 airs or we get more promotional stuff from HBO (hopefully a trailer as a Christmas gift to the fans!) is that people remain respectful, no matter how much you may be taunted from the other side or how much you may be tempted to rub it in their faces.

Use your own blogs to say whatever you want, but please, I’d like to ask that the Jonerys shippers or anti-Jon/Sansa fans not 1) crosstag in their shipper tags and 2) not send anons to them regarding all the new promotional stuff.

I’ve already seen a few asks in their tags of people saying things like “So you gonna start shipping Jonerys now that your ship is dead?” And frankly that’s just fucked up and rude and unnecessary.

We won. They lost. We have canon. They don’t. No need to crosstag or send anon hate. If they want to send us shit telling us Jonerys is a “sinking ship” or that Dany is mad or all that Political!Jon bullshit, fine. Let them be the petty ones.

But if they want to be petty about their ship not becoming canon, that’s on them. If they want to come on our blogs, comment on our posts seeking out a fight, again, that’s on them. Let’s try to be better than that.

[just-anti-shallie-things]

hey whaddup, the op of said post who got harrased by sha/adins is my friend, and let me tell you, you are fucking hypocrites. i don't even think i saw any sha/adins condoning those who kept acting like "it's a public website i can do what i want" even when my friend POLITELY requested to be left alone. your side has also come after non crosstagged posts (mine included), called us "k/ancefags" and joked about k/ance shippers having pedo parents, which also prompted me to have a breakdown :D (1/2)

[interacts with a pro-map just because they're anti-anti, lurks on other people's blogs (i mean, how would y'all find a commentary on a REBLOG if it wasn't by lurking on the blog of whoever tagged it on their reblog, y'all played yourselves), and all the callouts i've seen so far have been of jokes taken out or context or blown out of proportion. what's worse? i've seen plenty of sha/adins making the same kind of jokes and y'all don't give a shit, or even encourage them. stop it ffs (2/2)]thank you man this is the point im tryna make-mod shiro

[pastel-taiga]

"We make people sign up to be in our community before they can use our tags. So we are inherently safer" ...no. Omg. Are you fucking kidding me? In the past 2 weeks or so alone y'all have had issues with 2 people posting porn in your tag! Along with other AgeRe community tags. Ya know why? Cuz unless you physically restrain someone from typing that tag, they can do whatever they want. And what was your response? To put them on blocklists and warn your followers. Which is exactly what kidhearts does. We have a blocklist BECAUSE there are shitty people out there who are either to ignorant to know better or too spiteful to care. And I've seen plenty of people crosstagging your tags and other AgeRe tags with communities they shouldn't ever be associated with. In fact we've had to tell a several people to stop using our tags with yours and c/hire. Because it's on all sides that crosstagging happens. And if presented with people who use your tags that haven't signed up. What do you say? "Well they aren't really one of us. Okay! Cool! Neither are the "kidhearts" that we've but on the blocklist for breaking our community rules. Just cuz our lists are inversed, doesn't mean we're less than you. "Kidhearts are mean" No. Kidhearts have asked you, time and time again, to stop grouping us with kink. To stop telling people we allow kink. To stop telling people that there's crosstagging with kink and that we don't do anything about it. To stop telling people we're all ex-cgl (surprise a lot of us are ex-c/hire and other AgeRe communities and even more didn't even have a community) To stop telling people that because we don't allow antis (defined as someone who runs a blog dedicated to hate and negativity) that we "approve" of cgl. (We are anti, as in against, cgl. We just don't allow Tumblr Antis™ because they are toxic, even your own members and members of other AgeRe communities have said that) And whatever the hell else bullshit lies y'all keep spreading about us. And after months we are finally getting irritated. Because we've asked y'all to stop spreading lies, sent you receipts on our blog with info about our community, told y'all about our blocklist and welcomed you to use it and begged you to report these crosstaggers you keep seeing so we can keep our community safe. FOR MONTHS! We have begged for your simple cooperation and fucking decency. And you have done everything to go against that. Because "your better in every way" when in all actuality you have the same problems as us. Don't you fucking dare say Raven is mean. For, after MONTHS of putting up with your shit and your saintly attitude, calling you out on you're "holier than thou" attitude. Because that's exactly what you do. That's the reason kidhearts was created. Because our members (ex-cgl, ex-chire, ex-communityless, etc) could not handle your hateful attitude towards anyone you deem less than you. So you wanna bitch and whine about someone being mean? About someone being a bully? Take a good long look in the mirror. You have worn down an entire group of minors, csa survivors, and sex repulsed adults, who have been nothing but polite and civil with you for months, by willfully spreading false rumors and blatant lies and acting like you are better than them. And yet you have the audacity to insist we be perfectly sweet and nice to you after dealing with this shit for MONTHS? You need to check your ego at the door. You are NOT as great as you think you are, and you don't deserve an ounce of civility after everything you've done.

[warlordess]

How do you feel about the people using Misty's return as a way to attack fans of other female characters or ships? Like championing Misty returning over any of the other main girls returning, or cheering over pokeshipping saying other ships are now dead and this is current? It's almost like some people are saying, "Haha, my favorite girl returned and yours didn't" and insulting other ships as well in the process. Do you condone this activity or do you think it is wrong?

Well, thankfully I haven’t seen it for myself, but of course I’d feel the same way about that as I do about fans of other ships/characters doing the same thing to us.

There’s nothing wrong with enjoying a personal fave returning to the canon, there’s nothing wrong with celebrating it - even flaunting it to a point... but once you start crosstagging and calling other fans out and saying “your ship/character is dead now duh” or “you idiots thought you’d win but here we are” while tagging people and personally attacking them or whatever - any of that stuff - then you’re problematic and deserved to be called out.

Again, at the same time, it would be unfair to say that any time a fan creates a post that praises their fave character’s comeback is wrong, it would be unfair to say that anyone who screams that they’re so happy it was this character instead of that other character who got a cameo is an issue. People are allowed to have faves and opinions, you know? As long as they’re not crosstagging or calling anyone out in particular to rub it in their face/make ‘em feel like shit, then I don’t really see the problem.

So, for instance: “Maaan, I’m so glad Misty showed up, she’s my fave and I love her more than any other female companion~ I hated Serena/Iris/May/Dawn/Bonnie and hope she never comes back!” is fine to me as long as the person isn’t making a point to crosstag the post and ensure fans of those respective characters see it and get upset over it. The person doesn’t necessarily attack the fans, and opinions about fictional characters as general as “I don’t like them” are not enough to warrant a response.

However: “Pokeshipping 5eva!!!!1!!1 amour/shipping, negai/shipping, advance/shipping, etc etc, all suck and anyone who ships them is a fucking moron for ever thinking they stood a chance against my otp!!1!!” is not okay, generally because people who make posts like that also make a point not to add slashes in the ship names, which means they show up in other searches and the fans of those respective ships see them (which is why I added the slashes, so they shouldn’t show up in searches even though this post is in no way meant to insult them). Not to mention, they also personally attack the fans, calling them names and ridiculing them just for liking something different.

So that’s my personal line anyway. We all get upset at different things, anon. I’ve politely approached people who (accidentally) crosstag their anti-Misty/anti-Pokeshipping posts in the Pokeshipping search before and gotten called out at least twice about how I’m policing tags, even if all I said was, “Hey, this spiteful post ended up in our pro-ship tag search so I’d appreciate if you add a slash mark in the ship name if you plan on mentioning it in full, or else remove any tags that cause it to get filtered into our search.” To me, that type of thing in no way should have led to an escalated situation where I looked like the bad guy, and yet it did somehow.

Like I said, that’s my personal line though. I would never ask of someone else anything that I was unwilling to do myself if ever the situation was reversed. I just assume that anyone should want to keep things cordial/civil between different fandoms/shipping communities. Buuut we’re all wrong sometimes.