#structural dissociation

[spookietrex]

[healingchildhoodtrauma]

[subsystems]

“Complex trauma is also known as developmental trauma in that it is trauma that is chronic, pervasive, and it happens early in development from, say, birth to teens. Many people who have what we call complex trauma have had many years of trauma; mostly we’re talking about child abuse. I think complex trauma also covers other issues like war and political torture . . . but mostly we use it to think about people who’ve been abused and neglected as children. . . . Emotional neglect can lead to a pretty profound disconnection from yourself; depersonalization, depression, a sense of purposelessness. It can be pretty severe.”

Kathy Steele, a leading expert on dissociation & trauma, explaining what complex trauma is. (source, 10:15)

[sysmedsaresexist]

if it’s ok to ask a follow up question.. how can u differentiate between anp or ep or a mix of both and can a host be an ep?

Here's what Nijenhuis says from The Trinity of Trauma Volume III (p.17):

"‘Apparently normal parts’ (ANPs) primarily aim to achieve the goals of common life. ‘Fragile emotional parts’ (fragile EPs) primarily defend the basic integrity of life amid a devastating umwelt. ‘Controlling emotional parts’ (controlling EPs) primarily strive to generate and maintain a sense of personal power, of shining autonomy. To achieve their aims ANPs strive to ignore the phenomenal selves and worlds of the EPs. They strive to feel, know, and/or realize it as little as possible. In the attempt to delimit their fragility, ignoring (e.g., mentally avoiding) EPs is a form of control. Although fragile EPs feel and know themselves to be fragile, they long and strive to defend their very existence. Their defensive actions or passions involve a form of control. Stuck in the dreadful past, however, they remain more or less ignorant of the actual present in terms of the third-person’s conception of chronological time, place, and the unity the fragile EPs are a part of. Controlling EPs share this ignorance and try to ignore their fragility. They strive to control their life and their umwelt. Being prototypes, traumatized individuals can encompass both mixtures and variations of these three prototype."

To put this more simply, there can be any variation or mixture of the following:

ANP = Parts that aim to achieve the goals of daily life. They are usually avoidant or ignorant of the trauma and EP.

Fragile EP = Parts that are stuck in trauma-time. The past trauma still feels like the present for them, and they defend this perception and existence. The online community often calls them "trauma-holders."

Controlling EP = Parts that aim to aim to maintain their autonomy and power. They sometimes turn against other parts, or even people outside of the system. The online community often calls them "protectors" or "persecutors."

To help you tell the difference, ANP tend to have more higher processing while EP usually have more lower processing (see chart below):

Also, yes an EP can be a host.

[hauntedselves]

The Continuum of Dissociation

[Image description:

An infographic describing the continuum of dissociation and the theory of structural dissociation. From left to right (more integrated parts to less integrated parts), are:

Altered states - Altered states of consciousness: Includes things like daydreaming, normal absorption, 'highway hypnosis', flow states, meditative practices, and imaginary play

Primary dissociation - PTSD / single incident trauma: Where a person has what can be described as a 'Going on with normal life' part that does daily life, as well as a 'Trauma part' that holds the experience of trauma

Secondary dissociation - C-PTSD / complex trauma: Where a person has more than one 'Going on with normal life' part as well as multiple trauma parts that often are caught in defensive actions and patterns of trauma

Dissociative disorders - OSDD / UDD: Other specified and unspecified dissociative disorders are diagnoses given when a person does not meet the full criteria for a specific dissociative disorder

Tertiary dissociation - DID / polyfragmented DID: Characterised by two or more distinct personality states, and in the case of polyfragmented DID, a person has a large number of 'alters' or identities, each with their own sense of self

Outside of the parts model, but still within dissociation, are:

Dissociative amnesia: Where a person cannot remember important information about their life (more than ordinary forgetfulness)

Depersonalisation & derealisation: Where a person experiences feelings of detachment from their body or cognitions, including a disconnect from their self or environment

End image description]

[Image description:

An infographic describing primary structural dissociation.

In primary structural dissociation, there is a 'Going on with normal life part', which avoids traumatic reminders to function in normal life goals. Daily life functions include rest, play, socialising, relationships, and intimacy.

There is also a trauma part, which is engaged in survival / animal defences and is often in hyper- or hypoarousal. Trauma responses (defences) are: fight, flight, freeze, submit, and attach.

End image description]

[Image description:

An infographic describing secondary structural dissociation.

In secondary structural dissociation, there is a 'Going on with normal life part', which avoids traumatic reminders to function in normal life goals.

There are also multiple trauma parts, which are engaged in survival / animal defences and is often in hyper- or hypoarousal. Trauma responses (defences) are: fight, flight, freeze, submit, and attach.

End image description]

[Image description:

An infographic describing tertiary structural dissociation. It gives an example of a system, the collection of all alters (parts) within a person.

In tertiary structural dissociation, there are multiple 'Going on with normal life parts', one or more of which may be called the 'host(s)', who are engaged in daily life. Examples of going on with normal life parts are a worker alter, a caregiver alter, and a partner alter.

There are also multiple trauma parts, which are alters engaged in survival defences. Examples of trauma parts are a gatekeeper alter (who decides who fronts), fight alters (e.g. Ann, a 24 year old primar protector part, and Don, a 30 year old persecutor part), flight alters (e.g. Sally, an 8 year old trauma holder), freeze alters (e.g. Marcus, a 10 year old trauma holder), submit alters (e.g. Pia, an 18 year old trauma holder), and attach alters (may be called 'littles', e.g. Lily, a 4 year old and Jack, a 6 year old, both trauma holders).

End image description]

- Natasja Wagner

[connieaaa]

Excuse me, my inner child is in an absolute rage and throwing things again...

[kipandkandicore]

“but the theory of structural dissociation is just a theory!”

you know what else is a theory?

the theory of relativity

the theory of evolution

germ theory of disease

the theory of plate tectonics

the modern atomic theory

cell theory

just because something is a scientific theory does not mean it can be or has been easily disproven. in fact, in order for a concept to become a theory there must be ample evidence to back and support the claim!

so let’s please stop discrediting the tosd because it’s “only a theory.” theories help us explain and understand the world around us. and theories require tons of scientific evidence before they can even call themselves that.

there’s a reason why it’s not called “the concept of structural dissociation” or “the hypothesis of structural dissociation.” there is ample research to prove that structural dissociation can and does happen in those with complex dissociative disorders who experienced chronic traumatization.

if you don’t understand the tosd, that’s okay! it’s a complex and difficult topic that may take some research in order to learn more about. thankfully, we’ve done some research, and we’re more than happy to link some of the resources we’ve found in our studies.

ctad clinic’s video on structural dissociation

trauma-related structural dissociation of the personality

phase-oriented treatment of structural dissociation in complex traumatization

the haunted self: structural dissociation and the treatment of chronic traumatization

the treatment of structural dissociation in chronically traumatized patients

understanding treatments for structural dissociation

trauma informed stabilisation treatment for structural dissociation

(note about these sources: some of them may not be accessible if you’re not a part of an institution! we were able to access some using 12ft.io and others using our friend’s university login credentials… research should be open-access to the public and for-profit journals are a scourge upon the earth!)

“but the tosd is ableist!”

we personally, as a disabled system with dissociative identity disorder, don’t find the theory ableist, and in fact, find that it has immensely benefitted us in our healing path. we can’t find any evidence of the tosd being ableist, besides a single opinion-piece by the stronghold system, with claims which have since been debunked by multiple people, including system speak.

“but onno van der hart (a researcher who worked on the tosd) is an abuser who lost his license!”

this is true, and it is deplorable! however, van der hart is just one of many who have studied and written on structural dissociation, and the book the haunted self was written by him and two other authors! just because one researcher made bad choices, committed malpractice, or abused their patients does not mean that the theory as a whole should be discredited. another author of the book, kathy steele, has been a powerhouse in dissociation and trauma research for nearly 4 decades and is still going strong!

unfortunately, those with dissociative disorders are often vulnerable, traumatized, abuse survivors, and may seem like easy prey for abusers. this can lead bad actors to be drawn towards fields of trauma and dissociation. it’s important for those who harm patients and commit malpractice to be uprooted from the medical field and banned from treating or interacting with vulnerable patients in the future! but that doesn’t mean all research they were involved in should be cast aside and ignored. peer reviewed thoroughly and critically? yes. cross-examined and compared to case studies? absolutely. tossed out because the author was a bad person? definitely not!

“but dissociative disorders are still under researched!”

yes, this is true! but that’s no excuse to get rid of or dismiss the current research and widely accepted frameworks that do exist. it’s important to ask questions and be critical of widely accepted theories, instead of accepting them at face value. at the same time, it is counterproductive and and downright harmful to tear down research that has tangible benefits and has worked in the past to help traumatized systems recover!

it is normal to be afraid of things we don’t understand. but it is necessary to push past that fear, work through those knee-jerk reactions, and do our own research to come to a better understanding of the things that may confuse us!

if y’all have any questions or would like to further discuss the theory of structural dissociation, by all means feel welcome to! but please understand we are not a mental health professional or academic researcher - we’re just a system trying to learn more about our disorder and share the knowledge we’ve picked up along the way.

[sophieinwonderland]

I hate how "anything can be traumatic" has morphed into "everything is trauma."

Trauma is obviously a complex subject that is defined differently depending on who you ask. A lot of people reject the DSM's definition of trauma, which only extends to life-threatening and physically dangerous situations, which is fair.

Another way to look at it is that trauma is anything that causes PTSD symptoms. I personally prefer this version.

Loneliness can absolutely be traumatizing in this way. Many people in solitary confinement are traumatized by it.

But loneliness can also be not traumatizing too. It can feel bad, but it won't always leave you with PTSD-like symptoms.

Intentionally creating a headmate to cope with loneliness isn't traumagenic in and of itself.

And even if the loneliness is traumatizing, the mechanisms involved are different from theories on the formation of DID.

The theory of structural dissociation proposes that all trauma results in EPs (emotional parts) and ANPs (apparently normal parts.) The EPs begin as the memories and experiences that can't be integrated with the other parts' self-concept. Essentially, these normal PTSD states grow into full-fledged alters through repeated trauma. (Probably an oversimplification.)

Compare this to engaging in tulpamancy to cope with loneliness or a mental illness.

You talk to someone in your head to cope with something negative. But there are no separate "EP" headmates. If a headmate is traumatized, it's still just the original, who because they're living their day-to-day life, is an ANP. If there are EPs from trauma, those aren't so distinct to have developed into headmates.

For more on the ANP and EP distinction:

These two subsystems are called Emotional Parts and Apparently Normal Part/s as first described by Charles Samuel Myers. The Emotional Parts (EP) is believed to be created because it cannot be absorbed/processed by the system/human mind and body. So the EP holds the trauma material separate from ordinary consciousness. The Apparently Normal Part (ANP) will go on with life and continue functioning as it used to until the EP is triggered. The ANP, for instance, is the part that will take us to the work, to a birthday party or to see friends.

...

“ANP “uses” EPs as mental protection, in that these EPs contain emotions, thoughts, fantasies, wishes, needs, and sensation that ANP believes to be unbearable or unacceptable”

...

People with long-term trauma have different experience of time; their present moment has a lot of past in it. EP lives in the time of the trauma and believes the past is current and very real. On the other hand the ANP believes that past/trauma is not real enough, or did not happened to them and they have no emotional connection to it “it does not feel like it happened to me”. Yet , the ANP also cannot live in present moment fully because they need to constantly watch EP to stop them surfacing or entirely avoiding them

This avoidant dynamic described above doesn't exist in many endogenic systems.

There are different mechanisms involved in headmate creation that make the processes fundamentally different. One is initially characterized by avoidance while the other is characterized by communication.

We can see this in the order they develop. In DID, these traumatized states are usually fronting as a defense mechanism before they are even fully developed. In tulpamancy and a lot of other endogenic systems, headmates are usually created first and have to learn to front later.

The results may be similar, in that you get a fully developed self-conscious autonomous agent at the end of it that is also capable of fronting. But the paths to get there aren't the same.

So please, stop trying to convince people that endogenic systems are just traumagenics in denial.

[daughterofanarcissistwoman]

I find it hard when I see old pics/videos of me not because I think I was "cringe" but because I can see how vulnerable/trusting I was and see clearly now how the people around me were taking advantage of me and it infuriates my inner protector

[traumaanddissociation]

Actors role playing DID can be identified from differences in brain activation patterns, compared to people with DID - and brain activation patterns depend on whether an trauma holder alter / EP is in charge or a Apparently Normal Part / host - supporting the Theory of Structural Dissociation of the Personality (TSDP).

Multiple brain scan studies support structural dissociation, brain activation differences between alters, brain activation differences between people with DID and healthy controls or trained actors pretending to have DID.

Regions of the brain activated are those known to be associated with self-referencing and sensorimotor actions, but not the regions linked to imagination

Schlumpf YR, Reinders AATS, Nijenhuis ERS, Luechinger R, van Osch MJP, Jäncke L (2014) Dissociative Part-Dependent Resting-State Activity in Dissociative Identity Disorder: A Controlled fMRI Perfusion Study. PLoS ONE 9(6): e98795.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3791283/

[granulesofsand]

🗝️🏷️ discussion of dissociation and formation of CDDs

We do like to periodically announce that we still operate on a multiplicity model of DID. That means we believe a lot of structural dissociation, but with some differences.

Where we do understand young children as having states, we don’t define them as being parts. It isn’t six puzzle pieces, but six blueprints of the brain. Each functions differently with what’s already there, and none of them literally occupy a place.

Dissociation keeps these states separate. Sometimes they get further away or have amnesia walls put up between them. They never fell into each other like singlets’ states did. Now these states become alters, and their abilities vary by their system’s features.

These features inform the growth of each alter as an individual. Alters with access to internal experiences can elaborate without external input in directions not possible for alters who go dormant outside of front. Alters without co-consciousness have to gain skill sets independently.

There is no right way to be an alter. Some systems view their alters as parts of a whole. Some want to fuse into one state. Others believe that sharing memories and information is necessary for their healing.

All of those things can be good and right for that system. We tend to pull out the ‘secret third option’. We believe any alter in our system is a full person if they say they are, and that our distinct ways of using the brain are no less than a singlet.

Because we view each other as largely already whole, we don’t integrate between ourselves. We have worked on communication and bringing other insiders up to date, but we don’t utilize one another’s lived experiences.

Our third option is community, which we get to define for ourselves. Many of us struggle with demands and authority, so we don’t make progress with prescribed goals. If the two roads to choose from are melting our grains of sand into one final glass or getting so close as to be a mosaic, we’ll pave our own path.

And it’s working for us so far. We haven’t found any literature that stopped us in our tracks, haven’t hit a wall in our journey. So this is good for us.

Our name is an extended metaphor for our DID. It’s an understanding that we are not less than or part of, but one step in a turning cycle. Rocks grow and break, glass forms and shatters, and neither stays small forever. The smallest granules of sand make up a desert, and even those tiny bits can shape stones.

It’s okay to have a different perspective than we have evidence for. Science is an ever changing thing, understanding shifting with culture and time. Your experience cannot be wrong, even if we don’t see it right now. You are living proof, and that is enough.

[healingchildhoodtrauma]

[justanothersyscourse]

My final comments on CDDs

Anything after this will be deleted or ignored for my own MH

People fully admit they're not taking anything anyone says in good faith and refusing to allow anyone the chance to elaborate, and I'm not down for that

So

Complex: I've stated repeatedly that calling one thing complex is not saying another thing isn't. This isn't a complexity competition. I'm not comparing the complexity of anything, but instead discussing what falls under the HEADER of CDD and why. Whether it's under the HEADER or not means nothing (see quote below).

Parts/alters: fully autonomous with their own continuous sense of self (ANP or ANP-like, based on Nijenhuis' updated ToSD definitions)

Distinction between OSDD 1a and b as CDDs: I said that OSDD 1 falls into secondary SD (it does, generally, see below), though 1a falls firmly in the middle and 1b falls closer, or into, tertiary. This isn't just my own words, but coming from the authors of the ToSD.

Neither is more complex than the other. In fact, it's suggested that the opposite is true.

-(there's another quote I want to include here, just need to find it)-

In principle, the number of parts of the personality in a given individual has little bearing on whether dissociation is at the secondary or tertiary level. A patient with secondary structural dissociation may have many EPs, while a patient with tertiary structural dissociation may only have two ANPs and two EPs.

The Haunted Self

The theory predicts that overcoming tertiary dissociation in DID is less demanding than overcoming secondary dissociation.

Trauma-Related Structural Dissociation of the Personality, van der Hart, Nijenhuis, Steele

CDD as a term simply encompasses multiple ANPs and multiple EPs. That's it.

In my initial post about OSDD 2, I specifically chose the word "parts" instead of alters because I didn't want to leave out OSDD 1a. I should have used a different word or elaborated more on what definition I was using, and how OSDD 2 did not share that feature.

OSDD 2: is about identity confusion, not alteration. That's coming from the DSM. I said, if you experienced those things and have "parts" or a system or alters, OSDD 1 or DID would override the OSDD 2 diagnosis.

I'm not sure why that's controversial. This doesn't say anything about the complexity of the disorder or the causes behind it. It just doesn't have alters or distinct parts. Why is everyone so angry?

OSDD 1a doesn't have alters: see this post with backup info. This does not mean that I believe OSDD 1a isn't systemhood or that they don't belong in this community. Again, just just a fact about the presentation of the disorder.

BPD and OSDD 1a: I provided sources where I was getting my comparison from. The difference here seems to be levels of amnesia and the... Strength? Of EPs. Does that make sense? In fact, I'd argue trauma-based, dissociative BPD belongs in our communities too for support.

According to the Haunted Self:

However, patients with BPD have lower scores for dissociative amnesia on the DIS-Q than patients with DID and lesser degrees of identity confusion and alteration. These differences distinguish BPD from DID... Some patients with BPD have severe dissociative symptoms, and may actually border on DDNOS or DID. Our clinical observations suggest that dissociative parts in BPD patients have less emancipation and elaboration, and a less distinct sense of self than in DDNOS or DID.

I think that's everything, but if you send an ask with a point you'd like further clarification on, I'll likely add it here, but I won't be directly engaging any further.

Additional edit:

I'm not sure if it's because I live in America's hat, or just my own education, but DDNOS was always described as "not yet" and "not quite". People were diagnosed with DDNOS when they either failed to switch during diagnostic interviewing, or they showed no signs of amnesia, and the vast majority would go on to eventually display both and later be diagnosed as DID.

For example, during initial interviews, we would go into "states" where we believed we were still in active danger. We would cry and panic and completely shut down. If this was an alter, it was little more than a fragment that would manage to completely overpower the rest of us with the sheer... Size of its fear. Recognizing where our life was currently was just... Beyond our grasp in this state, and even if it could be convinced we were safe and calmed to hold a conversation, any progress was undone by the next time it appeared.

I came out of these sessions with only minimal awareness/memory. I knew I'd made a fool of myself, but not much else, though the way I tried to play it off as nothing major implied I had more awareness than I did.

This was the EP, I was told.

Its function was extremely limited and it was driven by emotional distress. Talking to it in any coherent fashion wasn't possible. It couldn't recognize our life as it was currently and was terrified that our abuser was standing outside the office door, waiting for us to finish. All that could be done was to reassure it until the episode passed. It believed it was me, but thought that I was someone else. That sounds confusing, but it was very much a part of me/us, and related to this body, this life, and the trauma we experienced, but somehow thought that we were a little boy, at the same time.

I am not a little boy, and I was little girl at the time that abuse occurred.

Again, confusing, nothing ever makes sense, it's wonderful.

Amnesia wasn't clear enough at this point, not for switching and not for past abuse.

I have never managed to fully switch in therapy, though at home my system is extremely comfortable with my partner. Several years later, long after I had chickened out of further testing, I was in therapy again and my doctor was aware of my previous history with OSDD. I still couldn't let us switch in front of her, but my husband was brought in to talk about some of my other alters.

Some appeared, by description, to be fully fledged ANPs. Aware of our life as it was, vaguely aware of our history, but relatively unbothered and disconnected from the... Fallout of that history. They had likes and dislikes and could hold conversations about current, relative topics, and held their own opinions and ideas about those topics.

For example, all except for one of my ANPs thinks COVID was bad. One of us thinks the world needed a culling to bring to population down before we completely kill the planet. That's fucked up, but he's got opinions and he's damn well going to share them, whether any of us like it or not.

This alter was a mix of an ANP and EP. He was still largely driven by paranoia and anger, and he occasionally found himself confused about days and times or where he was (sometimes even what species he was). He was mostly capable of holding conversations about current topics, though very selfish in that it would always turn back to him and his problems.

The EPs have no idea what COVID is (though if I split one because of COVID, that would be a different story), and have no interest in hearing about it.

I have never once said that OSDD 1a are not systems. They very much are. They still switch and have just as many (if not more) problems as I do. They still have parts.

However, in the context of CDDs, they don't fall into tertiary SD. That all I said.

EPs are not "alters" as they're known in DID because they have little to no awareness of positive life changes and instead remain stuck in trauma. I've lost hope of my little EP ever taking on ANP traits, and instead now focus on internal care for him.

Because he fucking deserves it.

I needed to stop hoping and expecting, because it was putting more strain and stress on him, and I needed to accept the little emotional bundle that he was. He likes mug cakes and watching Marble Olympics after he's been calmed. It helps him relax so we can scoop him back up in a hug and put him to bed, because naps after crying are the best.

In my opinion, all this makes DDNOS/OSDD 1 a pretty useless diagnosis, and I think it should all be part of one single diagnosis. I think OSDD should be in tertiary, regardless of EP/ANP configuration because of the relative emancipation and awareness of EPs in 1a. They may not be as distinct and autonomous as ANPs or alters, but this is clearly part of the same disorder and it goes above and beyond that of the other disorders considered secondary SD.

There have been dozens of recommendations for how this should happen, all with their own problems and positives.

I don't really have any thoughts myself on how to do this.

But I never meant to downplay anyone's experiences. I only meant to discuss the literature on SDs.

[subsystems]

A podcast on understanding the Structural Dissociation Model with Kathy Steele, one of the experts behind the model itself. Very interesting information on structural dissociation, complex trauma, and complex dissociative disorders. Please give it a listen!

[one-systems-journey]

21.2.24

So, that small amount of hope we tried to hold on to was kind of a pointless endeavour. We did processing last week & it didn’t go well. Left things pretty unstable. I guess we pushed too hard, too quick.

We’re going to try CPOS again. This desensitising type of EMDR that’s suppose to help us learn to stay present & go back & forth between present & triggering thing. Hopefully it’ll help calm down the system & make it feel safe to go back into things again.

We have some potentially very scary medical stuff going on, as well as other very stressful things. So we’re really hoping things settle again soon.

On the lighter side our counsellor has really been doing a bunch of little things that make us feel like she cares, is doing all she can to support us & preempts difficult things. It’s lovely & we’re really greatful.

[syscurse]

https://www.systemspeak.org/blog/2019/9/12/structural-dissociation-discussion

Edit: Here’s a new link that works.

This is a discussion article from System Speak about Power To The Plural’s “structural dissociation is ableist” article. While interviewing a professional, they go over the misinformation in PTTP’s article, and even get input from one of the creators of the structural dissociation theory. They tackle some common myths and misconceptions that the plural community is spreading about dissociative disorders and the theory of structural dissociation.

Some topics include:

OSDD is not a “lesser” version of DID

All alters are equally important & real

You don’t have to be distressed by your alters to be diagnosed with DID or OSDD

Structural dissociation applies to ALL trauma-related disorders, not just DID and OSDD

Final fusion is not the primary treatment goal for DDs; it’s a choice & it should not be forced onto you

This is an important read if you feel like the concept of trauma-related structural dissociation and its treatment somehow invalidates plurality.