#disability discourse

[21stc3nturyd1gitalb0y]

it shouldn’t be taboo to admit that there are disabled people who are more or less disabled than you.

i consider myself mid support needs. i am in pain every day of my life, all the time, and am significantly impaired by that. i can’t work full time. i require significant support to get through the day. i need my service dog to function properly. i can’t live alone, at least not right now. i can’t effectively mask my autism.

but i still have privilege over other disabled people. i can walk. i don’t have to worry about wheelchair accessibility when i travel. i have no visible deformities or intellectual disabilities. i am verbal.

some people are more disabled and others are less disabled. it’s okay. it doesn’t mean that you’re not valid or that you don’t deserve help. it just means you do not have the exact same needs as someone else.

[iliiuan]

I have more thoughts about stilling as disability, and the narrative surrounding stilling.

Stilling as disability is so on point. The person is no longer able to do a task they were previously able to do. They are ostracized by their peers. They often sink into depression.

In the books, we get to explore the experience of stilling with four characters: Logain, Siuan, Leane, and Setalle. Each character handles their disability differently. Logain falls into deep depression and his only motivation to keep going is basically revenge. Siuan has a somewhat similar motivation, although her revenge is much more complex. Leane chooses to embrace her life, to become the woman she would have been if she hadn't become Aes Sedai. Setalle moves away, marries, opens an inn, and works to help women kicked out of the White Tower. Each finds new life after stilling, the women a little more easily than the men (an effect of the taint?).

How do these narratives align with narratives and realities of disability in the real world?

The ostracization is perfect. People are very quick to drop a friend who suddenly requires considerably more effort to spend time with, and who is possibly unable to reciprocate favors, who has almost no money, and who is probably really negative about life. In the books, it's very much presented as the stilled woman being a reminder of what could happen, and no one wants to be around that. Which does also happen with disabled people, especially those with physical deformity. The Aes Sedai take it one step further, though, and pretend that they are ostracizing the woman for her own benefit, to prevent her from feeling the loss that she experienced. I find all of the book narrative of the social response to stilling to absolutely reflect the social response to disability in the real world. Ostracization as "protection" is less common, but it does happen.

Next, we have depression. This is so incredibly accurate to the experience of becoming disabled. I can't speak as well to the experience of congenital disability, but I imagine that they also frequently mourn what could have been. But it's not just the loss of ability that's driving the depression, is it? It's also the loss of social network, standing, and power. Being helpless is depressing. Being socially isolated is hell. The Aes Sedai have another layer to their depression, though: The loss of power and Power. Moving from being one of the most powerful people in the world, someone even kings and queens give deference to, to being just another ordinary person — that stings. To lose contact with a source of Power regularly referred to as something akin to the Sun — that's devastating. The book narrative surrounding depression as a response to becoming disabled is absolutely accurate.

Now let's look at the individual responses of our four stilled characters, what they say about each of them, and what we can about how the narrative handles disability.

Logain has the double disability whammy of being affected by the taint on saidin, and then being stilled. His sanity is suspect from the beginning, but for all appearances, he seems to stay sane throughout the series. The depth and timing of taint-induced insanity is quite random, which is very true of many debilitating illnesses. (Schizophrenia is a pretty analogous illness in that its usual onset is in a person's early 20s, but can manifest across a great range of ages.) When he is stilled, Logain is also pulled from a seat of power. As False Dragon, he had amassed an army and was actively conquering new territory. His decline is 100% in line with someone who has been removed from power and Power, who has a minor identity crisis in accepting that he is not the Dragon Reborn, and who has been removed from his entire social support network to be watched by a bunch of Accepted who would rather do almost anything else. He is having a Very Bad Time. So when Min, Siuan, and Leane pick him up, he is quite understandably hitting rock bottom.

The three of them fight tooth and nail to keep him alive, keep him motivated, and keep him going. Layered with their determination is Min's viewing that he is destined for greatness. Even though his destiny is written, they still have to do the work in the moment that keeps him alive. They choose to shelter and protect him, in part out of fear of what he might do left to his own devices, in part out of compassion for a fellow human being who is Going Through It, and in part out of the habit of believing that he is their responsibility. The disabled banding together to take care of each other is a powerful narrative. It is sad that the world throws us away, but our worth as human beings cannot be so easily destroyed. We bring value and strength to each other, and are able to move forward all the same.

Siuan, very similarly to Logain, is removed from a seat of power, as well as being stilled. She does not have the shadow of the taint to contend with, and her identity is rock solid. She has her mission, which has been her whole world for nearly 20 years, and she simply decides that it will continue to be her whole world. She makes strategic decisions based on long-term plans. She is changed, but also remains the same. In Siuan we see how disability creates difficulties and obstacles that can be overcome. This particular disability narrative is toxic by itself, and yet also a needed narrative within the broader discussion of how disability affects people. It does not serve anyone to pretend that disability is always devastating, never surmountable, always so absolute that there is no escape. So if Siuan's story was the only disability narrative in the books, I would call it inspiration porn. Thankfully, it is not the only narrative. Rand al'Thor has terminal illness that he can't escape. Min has chronic illness that causes her constant problems, and limits her participation in the world. The male channelers have madness that can strike at any time. Within the Wheel of Time, we have a great diversity in disability representation, which places Siuan's arc in the position of true inspiration, not a toxic narrative of applauding ability in the face of disability.

Leane, while occupying a seat of power, was a support power rather than a principle power, and therefore does not have as much difficulty in accepting her lowered position. She does have a new perspective on her identity, though, and actively chooses to embrace who she was before she entered the White Tower. For her, letting Leane the Keeper of the Chronicles go is what allows her to continue forward. She displays a much greater flexibility with her identity than either Logain or Siuan, and more successfully moves into being a new person. She is still a follower at heart, and continues to support Siuan, but it is out of loyalty to Siuan-the-person, not because she has any illusion of regaining political power.

Some people deride Leane for chasing men as a way to deal with her stilling, but they have overlooked some key aspects of who she is. This is a woman who openly flirted with Perrin in The Great Hunt. She is Domani, for whom flirtation is a social construct used to gain and maintain power. I feel like a lot of her critics are prudes who don't want to admit so. Domani flirting is to suggest, to entice, and to leave satisfied even though everyone stayed dressed and sat apart. It is an artform, and she chooses to re-embrace it now that she is no longer tied to the Tower concepts of sexual frigidity masquerading as professionalism.

Leane's response to disability, then, is to embrace something that her ability had taken from her. Many newly disabled people indeed find that they cannot do much standing, but they suddenly have time for fiber arts that they can do while lounging. Or they are physically incapacitated, but now have time to read and think and learn. Similarly to the narrative surrounding Siuan's stilling, Leane's storyline would be disappointing if it was the only disability story in the series. In contrast, however, I cannot think of a single character who was so disabled that they could not do anything productive. I could make excuses for this, such as reading a story about someone who can't do stuff would be boring, or that the world lacked resources to deal with that level of disability, but it falls a little flat for a series as long and complex as The Wheel of Time.

Finally, we have Setalle. Now Setalle is different in that she burned out while interacting with ter'angreal. She was not in a seat of power, but burning out removed not only her Power and social network, but also her life's labor. She could no longer do the work she loved. I've watched quite a lot of Dancing with the Stars, and one of the judges, Len Goodman, can no longer dance. He has been cut off from doing what he loves by a body that betrayed him. He can still function in the world; indeed, he still participates in dance as choreographer, teacher, and judge, but he cannot dance. This is Setalle's experience, without even the peripheral participation. She must find something else to do. When we meet her, she has already worked through her grief, found new motivation for life, and built a business and family. She shows that the Tower is not telling the entire truth about stilling, that life without Power is possible, and that the true reason they kick people out is so that they themselves don't feel discomfort.

Setalle's narrative is so spot on for how most people respond to disabled people. They don't want to associate, because they don't want to remember that they are only human, that disability comes for us all eventually. Her story also highlights the lies we tell about disabled people, as an excuse to not provide accommodations, to brush them into a care home and give up on them.

We as a society create categories of people who we've decided can never be part of society: people with Down Syndrome, Autism, and Schizophrenia, to name some of the better known. While there absolutely exist members in each of these groups who cannot function without 24-hour intensive care, there are many more members who can actually participate fully in society. Such participation requires regular society to make some concessions, however, and people are generally unwilling to do so. An adult having a panic attack and therefore removing themselves from the source of panic? Cringe. What's wrong with them? Someone who talks to imaginary friends? Or who is spaced out most of the time? Creepy. Someone who misunderstands instructions, or often forgets things? What a hassle to deal with. Why should I be the one to bother? We are very unkind to those who do not have what we consider a baseline skill level for dealing with life. But we also didn't even try to bring many people up to their full functioning level. Occupational therapy has changed things for very much the better on that front, though I think we still have a long way to go.

We find ourselves now deep in the mire of disability vs ability. Is a disabled person only valuable with respect to what they are able to do? Is a person not worthy of life and love if they are completely incapacitated and dependent on others? On the other side, should we ignore a person's potential just because they will never acquire certain skills or abilities? How do we find the balance between supporting a person so that they can fulfill their potential as human beings, and providing for them because they cannot do things? The conversation rages, and I do not care to provide answers here. I simply wish to acknowledge that finding that balance is not straightforward, and will be different for each person.

The narrative in The Wheel of Time focuses solely on people who do have ability, whose disability is an obstacle that can be surmounted. I do think it's fair to criticize the story for lack of total disability, but not harshly. The story is about what it is about. Other stories address complete incapacitation. (Please, please read Vorkosigan Saga for a broader perspective on disability and inherent worth.)

With respect to stilling in particular, the story also provides a cure. What's interesting about the cure is that it does not restore the patient to full capacity if performed with the same half of the True Source. So, a saidar user cured with saidar will not be as Powerful as she was before stilling, whereas a saidin user cured with saidar will return to his original strength.

The Cure is always floating in front of the disabled person. If only I could get the Cure, my life would be great again. Which is not entirely true, and the narrative of the cure for stilling does an excellent job of demonstrating this reality.

Logain, when cured, has his full strength, but he also is re-exposed to the taint, and the countdown on his madness restarts. What's more, he is now seen as a danger to the people who have been caring for him, and transitions from being a free-roaming prisoner to being watched and guarded non-stop. The cure did not, in fact, fix his life. He still has to work through the problems at hand. He is not returned directly to his former glory.

Siuan, when cured, is far weaker in the One Power than she was before. Because of the way Aes Sedai rank themselves, she finds herself at the bottom, required to follow. She is stubborn and manipulative, though, and finds a way to maintain her power through Egwene. It's horribly corrupt and delightful to watch. She becomes a puppet master, leading from behind. Even so, she is aware of her limits, and to whom she owes what. Her manipulation is often straightforward, especially with Egwene in particular. She becomes the trusted advisor because she proves herself trustworthy. Siuan's story arc shows that even with the cure, a disabled person will still often come out the other side with lower social standing than before.

Leane, on the other hand, decides that she is a new person, and insists on switching Ajah. Her response to the cure is very similar to her response to the disease: She will become the person she thought she had abandoned and suppressed. Her main point of conflict after being cured was with the Green Ajah accepting her. Her story provides a lens into how a person can change profoundly, but the people around them are unable to accept their change.

Setalle, having burned out rather than being cut off, could quite possibly not be curable, which provides a nice balance to the narrative of the Cure. Not everyone can be cured, and we should still treat those who can't be as full human beings deserving of respect.

On balance, The Wheel of Time provides an array of narratives that give us ways to understand various levels of disability, the different ways disabled people cope with their disability, and the social consequences of disability. While it lacks any examples of complete disability, it does very good work with the themes that it does explore, including what happens when someone is cured.

[ouchiemyspine]

'cop' is new tumblr buzzword. not everyone u disagree with is a cop. u cant make a 'terf' variation for every group that excludes anyone. words have meaning. the world doesnt revolve around u

[spale-vosver]

"man I wish I JUST had dyslexia you're less likely to graduate college?? well I'm more likely to DIE bc im PHYSICALLY DISABLED!!!" folks with learning disabilities are also more likely to die young but you wouldn't know that bc you don't want to get off your soapbox and acknowledge that while yes, NDs often talk over physically disabled folks (which is wrong!) that doesn't mean their disabilities are any less...well...disabling. (before you get on my ass I am physically disabled, with conditions that reduce my life expectancy significantly).

"Oh well ADHD-" ADHD doubles the risk of premature death

Here are more sources if you don't believe me

Intellectually disabled people die on average 20 years earlier than those of average intelligence

Autistic people are more vulnerable to premature death across a range of causes

Individuals with tic disorders are more than twice as likely to die young as individuals without

Individuals with Cluster B PDs lose anywhere from 9-13 years of life expectancy due to their disorder, and 1 in 5 kill themselves

So next time you try to pull the "WELL AT LEAST YOU AREN'T AT RISK OF DYING BECAUSE OF YOUR EASY PEASY DISABILITY UNLIKE MINE", actually research whether or not that's true before you show your own ass.

[neuropathyfordpines]

im gonna say something thats gonna make people uncomfortable: its not lateral ableism to acknowledge that even in the disability community some people have privilege.

It's not ableist to say that being able to control your body and have your physical body systems and mind work together is a privilege even if you are mentally ill or neurodivergent. Just like its not ableist to say as a part time rollator user I have privilege in that I can walk without assistance most of the time and when I need assistance I don't use a wheelchair. Doesn't make wheelchair users better than me, but it means they're treated differently than me when we go out together. I know this because my ex was a powerchair user and full time crutch user and people treated her differently.

I have a lot of privilege even in my severity as a psychotic chronic pain patient with many issues because I'm white - my pain is treated more sympathetically.

We can and should acknowledge intersection and privilege, inside and outside the community. thats not bad. I'm not saying I'm better than someone with adhd and a bad knee, nor am I worse than a full time wheelchair user with a catheter and strabismus. It's not "oppression olympics" or clicking identities on a form. But these identities cause you to be treated differently. That's all i've been saying.

[schizoaffectively]

Genuine question here.

I have seen discourse about how cripplepunk should also be about mental disabilities (neurodivergencies, mental health, etc.), or that it's exclusionist against people with mental disabilities because it's not including being about mental disabilities.

I have not seen any posts unrelated to this, about how neuropunk and madpunk should also be about physical disabilities. I have not seen neuropunk and madpunk called exclusionist.

So my question is... why?

That isn't to say that there isn't overlap!! I could be madpunk or neuropunk too, as I am mentally ill and neurodivergent... and lots of other cripplepunks have mental stuff going on too. Just like how lots of mentally ill, neurodivergent, etc. people can also have physical disabilities! But you aren't cripplepunk BECAUSE of a mental disability and a mental disability alone. And you aren't neuropunk/madpunk BECAUSE of a physical disability and a physical disability alone.

I don't think it's wrong for physically disabled people to want a space. It's not saying our disability experience is any more or less than those who are able-bodied but mentally disabled. Is it wrong to create a movement about being physically disabled? I don't think so, personally.

I just don't get why people are upset about about it being exclusionary one way, but not the other.

[cr-pplepunx]

low support needs / high functioning disabled people FOR THE LOVE OF GOD listen to your high support needs / low functioning friends and family (and believe us) about ableism!!!!!!!

nobody listens to us, we NEED you to listen to us.

[person-who-likes-stuff]

Settle an argument for me.

[dyspunktional-leviathan]

Almost* every single post that tries to single out either "physically disabled" people and non-psychiatric medical system or "mentally" divergent people and the psychiatry as respectively a uniquely suffering/oppressed group and a uniquely oppressive system also applies to the other.

*Originally I said "literally", but then thought about some aspects of psychiatry that are specific to it as a system. The majority of the tumblr antipsych posts that position it as unique are not talking about those.

P.S. What I mean by putting disabled in quote marks is that not everyone is disabled by their divergencies, not that no one is actually disabled. I also, I mean, the entire post is about it all being the same (extremely diverse) category, mean the same about "mental" divergencies.

Also, this was intially going in the tags, but decided to put it here instead. I should really get more into the Crip terminology. I'm just very disabled and very focused on being very disabled, a lot of my #disabilityposting is specifically about "a lot of people are very dis-abled by their disabilities actually". But that could be a category of crip-posting.

I've thought of writing some kind of Crip Manifesto a long time ago, but well, disabled.

[clubpenguist]

are your issues with the “exclusivity” of Physically Disabled spaces, or are you just projecting your own limited perceptions of what counts as a Physical Disability onto us? because like, obviously i cant speak for every cripple in the whole wide world, but personally? ive never met a cripple who didnt consider invisible illness havers + non-mobility-aid-users to be physically disabled. i literally think yall just need to examine how you YOURSELF define a physical disability

[appledumplinn]

TW⚠️ABLEISM/ABLEIST DISCOURSE (for some reason tumblr isn’t letting me swich this little blurb and the pic around so apologies<3)

okay i understand that lateral ableism is horrible and ppl with physical disabilities shouldn’t make it seam like that they “have is the worst” but why does having a disability need to be a competition? i think its worth mentioning that y’all able-bodied ppl and phys disabled ppl that make it a competition like this “*insert disability* is more important than other *insert disability*!1!!!!!1!!” only see it this way bc u see ppl with other disabilities and or with higher or lower support levels as competitors

im not saying that this person doesn’t have it bad at all. Tourette’s and tics in general are absolute torture and cause so much pain and injury for the ppl who have it and i think more ppl should understand that. <3

however most ppl in cripplepunk dont veiw disability like this. and to be frank disabled ppl that DONT veiw other disabled ppl like competition dont think like this. at this point i wish the ppl who dispise other disabled ppl like this would just say that they veiw us as competition which is why they feel justified in lashing out at those with different needs or higher support needs (higher or lower tbh)

and if I’m being seriously honest if ppl are more disabled than you, WHO GIVES A SHIT? i have fnd and low to med support needs for my autism, and there are ppl that “have it worse” than me, so what? i stopped caring abt wanting to have it the worse bc I’m fortunate to be able to do things that others cannot do due to one or both disabilities. i have a privilege that many don’t have and i think instead of lashing out bc u have the privilege to walk while others cant, be glad u still can do things like walk or walk without issue.

if this kind of behavior towards ppl with different needs is bc ppl that didn’t understand u acting like ur not truly disabled unless ur in a wheelchair, bro pls go to therapy for that. like i feel like so much of this kinda shit from able-bodied neurodivergents is just ppl like this taking out them not getting listened to by fully abled people out on other disabled ppl. i think thats why able-bodied neurodivergents like this shit on cripplepunk, when cripplepunk exists just so physically disabled ppl can empower themselves and each other and fight against a world that saw them as less than human (myself included) and bc they cant be apart of cripplepunk themselves :,)

i live for the day where we get rid of this notion that phys disabled ppl have it sooooOoOoo good while everyone else doesn’t cuz they can walk, see, hear, etc and we cant.

all in all i think ppl who do think see ppl in the community as competition and y’all need to go to therapy.

[crochet-girl6]

A while ago i made a post about how i wish my disorder was just as understood as pots eds and fibro (i decied to delete it cuz reasons) but made think about something:

the disabled community is very engrossed in wanting to be someone else within the community, so much so that we take it out on each other because we're not them. I can name a million examples of this especially that i have seen on this site:

Late diagnosed autistics autiscs calling early diagnosed autistics "privileged" essentially beimg visibily disabled/autistic and sending hate to eda's that say that thats not true.

Disabled ppl who fakeclaim other disabled people based on ableist stereotypes.

How in the phys disabled comunity being invisibly disabled/ as close to able-bodied as possible is what the ideal physical disabled person looks like and anyone else is "too weird".

The mind set "if i was x i would be taken more seriously/ avoid ableism" is so fucking toxic and its EVERYWHERE in the community

Theres also also an issue with ppl throwing around the word/ being called privileged wrongly. (No being visibly disabled is not fucking "privilege" we're not lucky for having higher support needs/lower functioning levels than you. Dont come into my comments/reblogs with that shit. ) I want to make a separate post about but it very much frustes me to hear this take as someone whos visibly disabled in several ways. But i think this is a good example of how one side of the disabled community takes out their frustration out on the other side bc they wish they were them.

Can we agree that we all have it bad and not make our want to be someone else out on others that r different than you? I feel like the disabled community would have less drama if we did that and got rid of this idea that "x has it better than i do, if i was like them".

[brettdoesdiscourse]

Yall. By definition, glasses ARE a disability aid because vision impairment is (by definition) a disability. Anything that aids a person's disability is a disability aid.

If a person with a vision impairment is not wearing their glasses, they will have a harder time navigating the world around them. If a person with a physical disability that requires a cane does not have their cane, they will have a harder time navigating the world around them.

Disability definition for anyone who wants it: a physical or mental condition that limits a person's movements, senses, or activities.

a disadvantage or handicap, especially one imposed or recognized by the law.

[bloggedanon]

People are out here arguing that gatekeeping cpunk from people is actually perfectly fine because able-bodied ND people have mad- and neuropunk and that's "perfectly fine" with them and it's actually annoying as fuck imo, large explanation under the cut I forgot to add originally

• First of all, try to tell me that physically disabled people are mentally perfectly fine and have never had their mental health compromised as a result of their physical disability. Just try, I'll wait. Just like how I'm waiting to hear about "able-bodied" ND people not having any physical issues purely as a result of being ND.

• Secondly, that doesn't make gatekeeping with the mad- and neuropunk communities okay EITHER, even IF the first bullet SOMEHOW happens to be true. The separatist mind-body dichotomy is predicated in entirely false pretenses. The experiences between the physically and mentally disabled communities have SO much overlap. One "form" of disability is not inherently more or less disabling than another, that's down to the individual(s) and their conditions. A lot of either "form" can restrict people's abilities to perform a lot of the same tasks regardless of what the tasks may be or what "form" of disability is responsible for it. A lot of medical conditions (and systemic ableism) can produce a whole lot of symptoms that present like mental disorders.

• In the same vein, we DO have to acknowledge that some people have their disabilities affect them in ways that not everyone experiences. The experience of having a psychotic break isn't comparable to the experience of being wheelchair-bound. But neither is the experience of being a low support needs autistic that can function independently and being a high support needs autistic who can't bathe or dress independently and will need lifelong supervision, and this is just two examples of the same disorder! A person who's chronically bedbound isn't going to have a comparable experience to a Deaf-Blind individual, even if they both wind up with lifelong caretaking requirements. If we can acknowledge that experiences in the mentally disabled and physically disabled communities aren't going to be universal even WITHIN our own communities and we don't turn to separatists about it, what makes the physical and mentally disables communities as wholes any different?

• This one's the big one, and I see it a lot, you guys really need to learn what punk actually means. PUNK isn't about the "by X group and for X group" mindset at all. It's not about "X group of people vs X group of people." It's a community of people who are standing together against a SYSTEM. It's about highlighting society's wrongs and shouting about it, and trying to enact change in whatever way we can. Its praxis is just activism. You don't have to be black to stand with the Black community and fight for their rights, and fight systemic racism. You don't have to be a woman to be a feminist, and fight the patriarchy. You don't have to be queer to get down in the trenches with them and fight queerphobia (allies still get bottles 'n shit thrown at them regardless). You don't have to be disabled to stand against systemic ableism. You don't have to be the direct target of systemic oppression, or specific, targeted systemic microaggressions to fight it.

What punk is is getting down in the thick of oppression right alongside those who have to deal with it as a concrete force in their daily lives and being right next to them when shit hits the fan, fighting the same fight they are, and taking the blows as if you were one of them, because to those who want to perpetuate it, you might as well be. Anyone can be an ally, and allyship IS what punk is, just as much as being a member of a targeted group fighting for their rights. Systemic oppression doesn't care about the nuances when it lines us all up against the wall, and our infighting is doing its job for it. The second we start singling out groups of people for their identities is when we've already lost. Anyone standing up against these sytems is punk.

Anyone GATEKEEPING a punk movement isn't a punk, they're a fucking poser. A cop. A fed, even, because there are no cops at punk.

Can you have specific communities OF [x people with x identity and experiences], by and for that group by definition, to discuss their specific experiences unique to their situation(s)? Sure! Just don't do any fakeclaiming in the gatekeeping, mmk?

And don't you DARE call it fucking punk.

[neuropathyfordpines]

you should care about marfans, vEDS, and other connective tissue disorders and types of EDS that are more dangerous and rare but also. also. you should stop using these disorders to make hEDS sound more dangerous in arguments against people with disorders that have more visibility and shorter lifetimes

-signed, a person in the process of being diagnosed with EDS with a family history of marfans and other stuff i wont get into unless i have to

[goeticwhorelore]

Controversial Opinion

But not offering holiday pay to part-time employees should be classified as disability discrimination since disabled people can only work part-time 🤷🏻‍♀️