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texasthoughtsaboutnothing · 8 months

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EDIT: I have received several new pieces of information that I'm distributing throughout the doc that further reinforces my stance on this, and is valuable to know. Also, I have sections where I'm more clear on my stance after thinking on it for a while and following more discussions on this. I hope I don't disappoint anyone with my thoughts.

If any part of what I've written here resonated with you, I shamelessly ask that you spread it in your preferred manner, and if you feel there's parts that need work please let me know.

Still gonna regret writing this, I'm sure.

[Warning: Long. Like, really.]

Because of all the shit happening with Arknights, PM is under fire once again as it ties into the larger narrative surrounding Korea and its full on gender war (a real thing that's apparently happening).

For those who don't know, way back in July Limbus Company got the event for 4.5 that included swimsuit versions of Ishmael and Sinclair. The fact that Ishmael was in a full bodysuit while Sinclair was shirtless with a collar led the Korean equivalent of 4chan to accuse PM's lead illustrator of being a feminist, which I guess is a bad thing if you're drowning in Korean culture war bullshit.

Turns out the lead illustrator was a man so they pivoted to the CG artist Vellmori and invented a whole host of bullshit links between her and an extremist group to try and get her fired.

And in accordance with their wishes PM fired her. Except they didn't. Probably?

Most everything known from this point onwards is, bluntly, tainted. It's a lot of machine translated Korean posts or, one way or the other, hasty conclusions from people with agendas (including me, no one is immune to propaganda).

Did Vellmori reach out to a newspaper to whistleblow on PM's flagrant disregard for worker's rights? That was the story at first but follow-ups implied it might be a complete fabrication or an overstatement of her grievances (EDIT, I have received information that while there was a phonecall to Vellmori from PM, it was to set up a meeting to properly hash out next steps and any claims she was fired over the phone are incorrect, and the newspaper that reported as such quietly retracted that statement).

Did a labor union jump the gun on spreading this story to gain political capital without reaching out to PM for their side of the story? Maybe if PM's version of events is true, but that's assuming a lot of malice of an institution doing it's best (EDIT, I have received information that the people directly responsible for handling the PM issue acted independently and were later found in violation of several union laws, including allegations involving CP that I do not want to and will not get into).

PM's story is that once the harassment flared up and involved physical visits to the development office, Vellmori wanted to quit. (EDIT, I have received information that the wording of the various statements can be interpreted as Vellmori leaving of her own volition but also under encouragement; if you see claims that she was forced to resign this is what that claim references.) There was a rumor about her getting 2 years of severance pay, but I don't know if that was ever corroborated and is likely false, but she would have gotten something in accordance with Korean Law which they were found in compliance of.

Everything after announcing her termination of contract (not translating the initial announcement, framing it as a company policy issue, keeping quiet on it for months, constant vague threats of lawsuits) was supposedly a bad attempt at trying to quell the harassment by making it go away. Instead, it exploded, and now if you're a fan you'll have to deal with this coming up forever. I know there's fans who follow me that'll resent me for making this post as they just want to move on (or think I'm wrong or misrepresenting some details).

I resent making this for what its worth, and am trying my best to be accurate, but for me this is part of moving on, acknowledging the bad and the factors that mitigate it. And yes, I think there are several mitigating factors.

Why did Cassie Wei, lead singer of Project Mili who is both Korean and a woman, speak out in KJH's defense?

Why hasn't, to my knowledge, Vellmori said anything since and by and large just disappeared if she was so poorly mistreated?

Why have, again to my knowledge, none of the Voice Actors and Actresses spoken out against PM in solidarity?

Why do PM continue to have partnerships with progressive companies like Arc System Works?

Why did the labor union retract their statements against PM and apologize following an actual investigation?

EDIT: New info. Why did the labor union censure the people responsible for handling the PM issue, who later quit the group seemingly in disgrace?

Why did PM not bring their own lawyers to the meeting with Vellmori while she was allegedly encouraged to bring hers?

None of these questions completely absolve PM of wrongdoing, if you were set on condemning them it's not hard to interpret each in a very uncharitable way. For example, most of this is easily answered by the fact we live under Capitalism and we inevitably all have to swallow our morals and ideals to make rent. I could retort that maybe PM did the same by capitulating in any degree to harassment (which they have done historically as what happened with Ruina's ending) and not specifically endorsing any ideology or political belief (which is wild considering the actual content of their stories). But I think that ends with a circular argument that boils down to whether you believe in PM or not.

To be clear, even if you want to interpret all the Vellmori stuff as charitably as possible, PM undeniably fucked up and has labor issues in its history. The artist for the manga Leviathan, Monggeu, came out during the whole thing to speak on her treatment as a contractor; how she was given an impossible workload and the company denied her requests for delays, delays caused in part by suicidal depression caused by the workload. Though KJH personally apologized to her, she was let go over the phone and spoke out only after she felt the company now had a pattern of abusive work policies. The author of Wonderlab also deleted her stuff in solidarity.

That's all bad. Really bad. I stopped playing Limbus because I felt extreme disappointment with the company and managerial tendencies of KJH. Credit to a reddit user I won't name for pointing this out, but this information is far more concrete than anything involving Vellmori as Monggeu broke her silence independently months after things happened on her personal Twitter. However, there isn't nearly as much focus on this or calls for Justice for Monggeu.

This opinion is mine and mine alone, but her situation, which I must stress was awful and shameful on PM's and KJH's part, doesn't tie into a culture war like "Vellmori being fired for feminist tweets" does. It is a clear cut example of bad labor and managerial practices that lead to harm towards an employee, but its an everyday tragedy, not a martyrdom. And so I wonder how much the treatment of labor is actually part of this discussion, the more actionable issue than changing all of Korean society. I wonder if PM's supposed kowtowing to incels is highlighted above all other context because it casts PM as an enemy in a culture war.

I say the above because I've seen online culture war stuff happen before, and it scares me beyond just whether a company I like gets redeemed in the eyes of others. I have seen lives destroyed in the name of a just cause for nothing, including good progressive causes like feminism. If the only thing that would satisfy or lead to forgiveness is a revolutionary purge, do you actually want to build anything?

I digress, and I hope I didn't turn you off too much with my thoughts and fears there. It's important though, because there was ultimately an apology from PM.

In it, among other things, they laid out their flawed logic on how they wanted to handle the situation, addressed their treatment of both current employees and past contractors, and promised to improve and protect employees better. Since then, things seem to have changed at least from an outsiders' perspective. The game moved away from a strict list of deadlines and towards a more open-ended dev pipeline. The game is less buggy than it used to be after updates. They changed policies on content to make it easier to produce by limiting VA without any blowback from their VA's so we can assume proper talks were had. Translations don't have as many errors as they used to while the quality has been maintained even after losing a major translator (which is its own tale of baffling choices by the company in its own right). And they've kept all this up for Season 3 so far without any announcements of delays and, in fact, far more content than usual. All of this, to me, points to better management.

Maybe I'm naive to think so but I want to believe that the evidence points to the crimes of PM not coming from a place of malice and antifeminism but incompetence. I need to stress KJH didn't kill or rape anybody, nor was he verbally or physically abusive. He was a really shitty boss, and I understand how much it sucks to have a shitty boss, believe me. But a shitty boss can become not shitty, and my hope is that happened already, and that a company that produces good art that's worthwhile will thrive as a result.

I say all this because I actually care about this company and art it produces. If I didn't, last July wouldn't have hurt so much. If I'm cringe for it, so be it, but I believe constructive change should be recognized and rewarded, and it's for those reasons I came back after following the game for the rest of its second season.

To be clear, you don't owe a company your time or your money even if they improve their culture and policies, and if you felt that what PM or KJH has done is unforgivable you are well within your rights not to engage with it ever again or even tell others about your grievances, as much as I might disagree. But if you want them to suffer, to lose business, maybe even to go under despite how many other women work for and with them... I don't know. Please don't just think of these people as enemy units in the war against feminism? Ask yourself that if Vellmori broke her silence tomorrow and asserted she left of her own volition and condemned groups like the PMUA, would you believe her or immediately assume she's under duress?

This is not a cut and dry, black and white moral issue where a great evil needs vanquishing, it's a messy as hell moral and labor issue involving multiple people wrapped up in larger cultural and social issues no one initially involved intended. There are real people involved who stand to get hurt, not to mention who's been hurt already. Justice can involve other things than a firing squad. Please at least acknowledge that much. inb4 "No and kindly die"

EDIT, regarding the lawsuits. If you didn't know, PM is currently suing the labor union and a separate organization once called the PMUA (Project Moon Users Association) now called the KGA (Korean Gamer Association). I have seen unconfirmed reports that the former has ties to the disgraced Korean Ratings Board exposed by Blue Archive Fans for crypto bullshit. In addition, I have seen criticisms of how the PMUA used donations and their effectiveness in actual addressing PM and its labor issues, including demonstrations on days workers and management weren't even present and being the ones responsible for leaking documents that Vellmori allegedly wanted to be kept private. All of that supports PM's allegations that these organizations were in fact targeting them as part of political ploys and they never cared about any of the victims or ideals they touted as representing. For all the above, PM is suing for defamation, which is well within their rights by my reckoning. Regardless of my thoughts, this is where we are now.

Last and by no means least, feminism is good. Wanna be clear on that, I believe in equal pay, reproductive rights, that grip strength is a stupid metric to measure human rights by, that men are not owed sex and love by women regardless of circumstance, the whole shebang.

Also, what's happening in South Korea is scary and serious and bigger than just a terminally online culture war shitfest, more like an active bomb about to explode. I support the women who live there and their fight for equality, I just don't think PM fundamentally has anything to do with it and constantly trying to drag it into the line of fire feels like faux activism. I think the scope of the gender war is very far beyond the limits of gacha game discussion, or for that matter the actions of a single company of, like, 50 people.

(I swear to god if Vellmori makes a post tomorrow accusing KJH of SA or something after I wrote all this I will throw myself into the ocean.)

This will actually be the last time I talk about this unless something changes, I want to believe I was respectful the whole time and don't mean to belittle anyone for their beliefs or choices (unless you're an incel, please be better, also take a shower).

#project moon #limbus company #mysogyny #obviously this is a lot #sorry #was a draft i was gonna delete but this arknights thing popped off and I saw 2 posts linking Limbus even though it's tangential #guess I just want a better counternarrative to “PM is the evil antifeminist bad labor company” than “nuh uh”#because bad shit happened #i just also believe its gotten better and that many of the accusations are vindictive more than disappointed #anti-PM sentiment feels fueled by non fans getting news from other non fans sometimes

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possamble · 5 months

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What are your headcanons about Marcille's mom if you have any? It's interesting that what drew Donato to her was cause she lived the history he studied, or that was said somewhere at least. She must've had an interesting life.

so this was going to be just a normal answer but then I realized I have a Lot of Things To Say. so here goes, a compilation of what we know for a fact from the canon, what I've extrapolated from the visual cues and details, and my theories based on all of that.

Things we know for a fact about Marcille's mother because they were explicitly stated in the manga and supplemental materials:

She was a court mage for a Tall-man kingdom at the southern part of the Northern Continent

Donato, a court historian, fell in love with her because she had lived through the history he was studying, and he courted her for 17 years (age 15 to 32) before getting married

She was a cheerful person who rarely showed extreme emotion and took things as they came

She always cooked a huge meal for Marcille on her birthdays

She remarried a gnome after Donato's death and a short distance away from Marcille's childhood home

Pipi, Marcille's pet bird, was actually older than Marcille and originally belonged to her mother (bird died at 62)

She was extremely heartbroken when Donato died and ultimately ended up instilling a deep fear of mortality in Marcille with her words

the only time she showed extreme emotion in front of her family was when Donato could no longer eat his favourite dish near the end of his life.

She scolded Marcille for being cruel to ants (implying she can have a stern side when needed)

Things that are explicitly shown but mostly through visual cues

She has a very distinctive style of dress always involving a ribbon choker (mirroring Marcille's habit of always wearing a matching choker with any of her outfits that don't cover her neck)

She was almost stereotypically good at housekeeping and traditionally "wifely" things (very frequently depicted wearing an apron or doing some domestic chore when not at work, seems to have been an avid cook).

She knits? (also, note the affectionate smile as she's looking at Donato and Marcille reading a book together in the full panel)

She was as excited for Marcille's milestones as Donato was.

She didn't tell Marcille much about elven food

(there are a couple things that this panel in particular implies:

She lived a good deal of her life (if not being born and raised) in a mainly elven country in the West, implied by her knowing enough of an elven region's cuisine to prefer Tall-man food over it

seems to have a pretty carefree and casual demeanour overall, if this is how she replied to Marcille asking her about it (sounds like she never gave her culinary preferences that much thought to begin with)

slightly related to number 2, it seems like she and Marcille had a fairly casual parent-child dynamic (especially in comparison to the Toudens' memory of their father)

(local elf tastes Italian food once and never goes back))

However, she seems a lot more... serious in most of the other times we see her? Almost like the very stereotypical archetype of a graceful elf.

Subsequent conclusions about her personality:

Usually pretty carefree and cheerful at home, has been a loving and attentive parent throughout Marcille's childhood (while not being so doting that she didn't discipline Marcille).

Slightly more conjectural theories on her personality:

Had a much more graceful and professional personality at work, which would explain the more serious portraits we see of her.

Given that both she and Donato had positions at the royal court, it seems a little odd that she'd go out of her way to do all the housework herself, so maybe she just enjoyed doing it?

Now taping all the evidence together and toeing the line between analysis and fanfiction:

It's clear that she loved Donato very much and was utterly devastated by losing him. But there's one thing that really stuck out to me in what little we see of her:

Doesn't she seem... angry? The way she's gritting her teeth, clutching the tablecloth, and how this is the first and only time we see her eyes opened that wide. In the following panel, you see her being quiet and dejected after her initial outburst. She's still crying very intensely, but her brows are furrowed, and she's not really responding to Donato's affection in her body language.

We're not told the details of how she felt about losing Donato other than that it upset her. But this, to me, implies that she was angry and resented that he was aging, that the end of his life was approaching. An "it's not fair" type of preemptive grief. And if this was the first and last time she cried like this in front of her family, she was either very good at coping in private... or very bad at letting herself feel unpleasant emotions until they become unavoidable and end up overwhelming her.

It's not too remarkable a detail on the surface. It's even reminiscent of what the audience has seen of Marcille. But... when it comes to the big picture, you'd think an elf who voluntarily chose to marry a tall-man and have a half-elf child would have been better prepared for this.

It kind of recontextualizes her cheerfulness to me.

"I'm sure everything's gonna be okay!" (or some variation thereof, depending on what translation you have).

And this is stated to contrast her extreme grief when finally confronting Donato's failing body and eventual death. But I'm wondering if... maybe this optimism was why she was so upset. What if she went into all of it thinking "everything's gonna be okay"? What if she was a little young by elven standards, and just followed her heart thinking that her own resilience would get her through anything?

Of course, only to get completely overwhelmed when she actually loses Donato. She turns into a completely different person. And that's heartbreaking on its own-- but what the audience sees is the effect it had on Marcille. Can you imagine being her, watching your invincible and upbeat mother suddenly lose all the light in her eyes in one go?

I've already made a huge post about how I think Marcille models her "work persona" off her mother, but another thing that stuck with me as I was looking for more details in the manga was this:

copy pasting from the other post i made about it lmao it's like... the second she resigns herself to lifelong pain and terror, there's another portrait of her mother facing her like this. with their heads bowed, in mirrored body language of resignation and despair and sorrow. Except it's posed like Marcille is still looking at her mother but her mother is looking away.

It took me a second to realize, but I think that it's a visual metaphor for the fact that Marcille's mother was the only long-lived role model she had-- and she failed to model healthy grief for her daughter. I don't say this as an accusation or to disparage her as a character, but just as a matter of fact. In her, Marcille was seeing herself older and losing a short-lived spouse or loved one of her own, and all she saw was hopelessness.

But her mother didn't mean to instill hopelessness and terror in her. She wasn't really thinking of how it would truly affect Marcille at all (at least, that's how I'm interpreting her looking down and away from Marcille in the metaphor), she was just sad. And she, in her own way, was trying to protect her daughter and help her prepare for future losses.

What she meant was "loss is inevitable, and you have to learn how to be in pain but live on anyway." What Marcille heard was "loss is inevitable, and you will be scared and hurt for the rest of your life."

Again. Marcille's mother doesn't feature explicitly in the story the way her father does -- but in so many ways, her shadow, her silhouette, her reflection is always hanging over Marcille.

All that to say... headcanon-wise (everything from here on is 100% without evidence lmao), I'd like to think that she matured and realized that she failed Marcille. I imagine her being regretful about it, wanting a chance to fix it but never finding a way to insert herself back into Marcille's life when Marcille is so so so busy becoming the most accomplished mage possible. I imagine her being herself again, now, so many years after her loss and after remarrying -- but with her cheerfulness tempered with a lot more wisdom and the pain of having gone through loss like that. I think the second Marcille actually tells her what happened in the dungeon, she'd want to go running to her daughter again -- if Marcille tells her the full truth instead of just being embarrassed she let things get that far. (oh, the tragedy of her wanting to be more like her mother and an accomplished adult who doesn't need to be babied... being embarrassed to actually tell her mother how much she fucked up...)

There's also the tension of her having remarried -- I know that there's at least a little bit of resentment that Marcille harbours about that, because she's childish like that at heart even if she makes an effort not to externalize it. I think that her mother would be aware of that, potentially adding to her sense of guilt and apprehension at trying to reappear/intrude on Marcille's life. I honestly don't think Marcille has met her stepfather -- or even considers him a stepfather rather than "mama's new husband" and kind of a total stranger. I think she and her mother actively don't talk about it in their correspondence, like an elephant in the room.

but, ultimately, I think her mother is on her side no matter what. Ancient magic? Dark necromancy? Sure, she'll feel guilty and like she was partially responsible for setting Marcille down such a painful path, but she wouldn't care. that's her daughter!! she would've moved back west and been petitioning for her at the court, buying a house right next to the Canaries barracks and visiting her every day that she wasn't on a mission. And if her husband had opinions on Marcille becoming a "dark arts user," he either gets over it or it's divorce with him. Yes, she might have had her optimism completely humbled by losing Donato like that -- but she's still headstrong and self-assured and she doesn't care what people think of her. It's her way or the highway and she's always going to be in Marcille's corner.

(She also needs a name lol. I went with Juno, just to be cute about "Marcille"s closest real life equivalent being Marcella, which is the female version of Marcellus, which in turn is a diminutive of Marcus, which was derived from Mars. Absolutely in love with Marcille potentially being named after Ares/Mars the fucking god of war btw)

#asks #she could easily be interpreted as distant or neglectful after Donato's death too #with how little involvement she has in Marcille's life/the fact that Marcille doesn't even mention her when talking about her life prospect #and that's fair! I will argue to hell and back that she was a loving parent when Donato was alive #but there's nothing that suggests she remained a loving parent afterwards #I just think that like... parental relationships are so complicated in dungeon meshi #you cannot deny that the toudens' mother loved them dearly but that she failed them both miserably as a parent #and i think it'd be more compelling if Marcille's mother was a little like that too #not a totally and easily dismissable deadbeat #but someone who truly loves her daughter but was only human herself and couldn't be what Marcille needed at a crucial moment #and regrets it deeply #and that the distance between them is mutually self-imposed by complicated feelings of guilt and fear #and a little resentment from Marcille's side that she hasn't really properly processed #I don't know if I'll ever get around to writing it but i had this idea where Marcille does finally spill the beans to her mom and she just #immediately arrives in Melini #and its awkward for a bit but they do finally have a heart to heart and air it all out #and marcille starts freaking out that her marriage is rocky rn bc her new husband wants her to distance herself from marcille #on account of the crimes and all #marcille's like no you can't blow up your marriage for me and her mother just shuts that shit down #'you didn't choose to be born. i was the one who made that choice for you'#'i brought you into this world and i'll be damned if i don't take responsibility for that the entire way'#'you are entitled to *nothing less* than my unconditional love.'#and obviously that's not a sentiment that's exactly healthy as a universal statement about parenthood #but i think its what her mother would believe and what marcille needs to hear #and dungeon meshi does such a fantastic job at just... letting imperfect things just *be* without having to justify it immediately #it expects the audience to do their own critical thinking #and know that its not trying to make sweeping universal statements in every instance #marcilleposting #marcille donato #junoposting

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