how do you think hen/karen are misunderstood by the fandom ( and the characters? ) 👀
hmmm let me jot down my (admittedly half-baked) thoughts
hen: magical powers. the idea of her as a Wise Woman. this 6x03 moment in particular plagues me:
buck: i mean, hen, you-you always have the answers
that's a succinct summary of how both buck and fandom see hen. which is ironic given that hen promptly experiences near-death in a near-car crash from over-working herself in that episode. the show purposefully deconstructs the superhuman!hen myth in s6 (which they'd accidentally built in the preceding seasons), but the idea still persists.
add on that bobby line about "mother hen," and you get this in-universe perception of hen as a wise guide which isn't accurate to her character. her advice and takes aren't always the best and are frequently clouded by her personal sentiments (drunk hen flip-flopping on whether buck should tell lucy about the kiss [in fairness, she's drunk, but i think her inebriation gives a fair look into her unfiltered, impulsive thinking]; hen doubting whether chim should marry maddie; hen saying she and karen should "fight" for nia).
she doesn't know everything! and she doesn't have super-human perception, catching every little detail around her like shawn spencer in psych, as fanon can sometimes make her out to. she's just intelligent and skillful (which are traits that she WORKED to attain. she wasnt magically gifted Super Paramedic Hands by god. we saw her work for that. i think people forget that).
chim's "you're the genius, i'm the comic relief" line is interesting, too, because everyone (including hen) recognizes that chim is under-estimating himself when he refers to himself as "comic relief," but there's not the same recognition of how "genius" parallels that, in terms of being an over-simplification
none of this is to say hen isn't wise, or perceptive, or talented. i just think those traits of hers get exaggerated by fans and other characters to caricature-ish levels.
as for karen:
i've seen people describe her as "selfless" which is. interesting. i think hen mistakes her for that too. karen IS selfless, yes, but it's a trait that veers more into self-sacrificial territory. she routinely gives up a Lot for her wife and family; not just her astronaut dream, but her emotions—suppressing them for others' sake. some stand-out dialogue:
hen: it's like that ivf stuff never even happened
chim: well, that's something
hen: my wife's a project manager—looks like i'm her new project
it's like. well, hen. i think your wife who never fully processed her grief around her lost embryos (which you admitted to not understanding, and in fact being frustrated with) is not enthusiastically picking up your recovery process from your recent traumatic experience as a mere matter of prioritization, but as a course of action for suppressing her grief and moving on (instead of actually recovering). that's self-sacrifice, not selflessness or supportiveness. she has moments where she stands her ground, but like in the case of toni's wedding (5x18), she's moved away from it quickly.
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I saw this panel in the comic "Lil Gotham: Once Upon a Crime" and completely lost my mind. Surprisingly, before that I did not realize that the criminal and the girl from the fairy tale had the same name. (Although, in principle, it was understandable. Traditionally, the criminal's nickname is translated into Russian as Red Cap).
However, now I can't take "Zero Year" calmly. Comparing Batman to a wolf, and Red Hood to a girl of the same name… Oh God, there is such scope for possible parallels. Perhaps something with the inverted fairy tale, when the girl turns out to be not entirely innocent, and the wolf is ugly and looks scary, but not at all evil.
Save me, please…
Goddamn. Yeah I hadn't made the "Red Hood" fairytale connection either, but it is very poignant. Especially if, as you say, you think of it as an inversion: Little Red Riding Hood is evil, the wolf is the unlikely good guy. But speaking of Zero Year, this reminded me that Bruce was under disguise in the Red Hood gang, wasn't he? Twice!
Batman: Zero Year -- Secret City
Kinda like the wolf in the fairytale, who disguised himself as the grandmother. Hah. I'd ask who the hunter is, but it could either be Jim Gordon or also Bruce. It's more that the evil Little Red Riding Hood taught the wolf how to become a hunter, in Snyder's story. And then, as a wolf and a hunter, Batman fails to catch or save the Red Hood.
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What does Sleep, as in the deity, look like to you guys? Because as someone who's been around in the Sleep Token fandom for a while, I've seen a lot of different interpretations.
To me, Sleep doesn't really have a set, physical body outside of a person's (perhaps Vessel's) dreamscape. Afterall, why should something that dictates all the odd, horrifying, joyful and (sometimes) meaningful things that happen in your dreams be one thing? Sleep could be the shadow in the corner of your dark room you swear is moving, the tapping of rain as you're about to fall asleep, the creaking of the pipes inside your house/apartment as you slowly dose off at your desk, etc. Outside of a dreamscape; Sleep is only what you need it to be. Hence Its need for Vessel as Its mouthpiece.
However, in the dreamscape, I can see Sleep as a fish. Not a particularly alive looking one, per say, but the scattered remains of one. All bones, empty eye sockets (but are they truly empty?), rotting flesh and scales peeling off bit by bit etc. Specifically, a kind of deep-sea fish; like an angler fish, a sixgill shark or a Greenland shark. But! Along with its bones, Sleep has bioluminescent innards. Viceral that ebbs and flows in multi-colour fashion with each flick of Its tail.
The deep sea fish imagery mainly comes from the fact that the deep sea is almost completely unknown; many of the creatures down there are completely alien to us, like Sleep has supposedly become over the hundreds of thousands of years that It's existed. The deep sea, for the most part, is completely silent. Calm; the perfect place for a nap (if you can breath underwater of course).
It's the perfect habitat for the Unknown, odd and horrifying.
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... first and foremost, I would like to apologize for any discomfort I've caused you, Kim. now, I'm not the most... socially apt person. but I really, sincerely, do *not* mean you any harm. I'm not intending to come off as creepy, I can, however, understand why you'd be uncomfortable or perhaps concerned by these gifts and all. (I mean, shit. if somebody mailed me a painting of me dancing with them, I'd be weirded out too, flattered, granted. but weirded out.) I never really expected anything to happen, I guess I just... felt the need to tell you how I feel about you, get *that* off my chest, at least. even if you don't feel the same way that I do. (which is fine, and understandable! I get it.) as for why I've sent you gifts... I suppose I just wanted to show you how I felt with something other than a note or whatever. *just* a note feels kinda cheap. I'd rather give you something that's at least a bit useful to you (hence those custom made drumsticks.).
I hope you find success in whatever future endeavors you do. and I hope that you don't find this note too off-putting. enclosed is something that I hope you and the rest of Sex Bob-Omb like.
-sincerely, the guy who said he had a crush on you.
*enclosed is a folded, custom made Sex Bob-Omb poster, it's actually quite well made. it's an homage to the album 'Ramones', by The Ramones, featuring Sex Bob-Omb's lineup leaning back against a brick wall. unlike the original album cover, it's in color and not black-and-white.*
ooc: answering this as though it is in the nebulous but near future! I just didn't want to leave this lingering any longer; sorry for the delay! Hopefully I have left things vague enough for myself to wedge it back in the timeline of the blog later lol
Kim lets out a long, weary sigh as she finally gets back to the relative peace of her room, taking a moment to rest back against her shut door and scrub at her face. The energy and emotional exhaustion of everything that had happened between the last time she'd been here and now seemed to be sinking into her bones, and she wanted little more than to sink to her knees right there and just be comatose for a while.
She knew from experience, however, that the floor was cold and miserable like that, especially this time of year; so, instead, she opts to shrug off her coat and toss it blindly in the direction of her desk, trudging towards her bed. She closes her eyes and lets herself fall forward into it, ready to finally, properly rest, maybe even unpack her thoughts about everything- but then, she hears the crinkle of paper as she makes contact with the sheets, and her eyes fly open while she rolls to the side and, thankfully, off of the object.
She blinks down at an envelope that had been tossed haphazardly on the bed, probably by Hollie, and after a moment recognizes the style of it. Oh, that one guy... how long has this been here? Did I miss this before I left? She hesitates briefly, mostly just in resistance to the idea of having to continue actively thinking, but sighs and sits up anyway. She won't be able to relax if it's just sitting there, tempting her.
Propping up her pillows, she leans back against them and opens it, pulling out both the letter and the folded poster. She looks over the letter first, and after a moment, lets out another sigh, this time a short, guilty thing. The words feel genuine, so she can't help but feel slightly bad about her previous response, but... Well, if they knew anything about her, they might've expected it. She tries to take comfort in that fact, glancing over in the general direction she left the drumsticks. Then, she pulls out her phone and snaps a picture of the letter, opening her blog to begin her reply.
Hey, sorry this too so long to get back to. Life and things; with how people talk, maybe you've heard about the party by now? Julie's ragers, am I right?
The apology is appreciated... and accepted. I think I believe you, especially given you're acknowledging the creep factor there. I'm not really a big gift person, I guess, so it was a little off putting just to begin with, anything else aside. I think you've already given me more than my parents got me for Christmas, and I don't even have a name for you beyond "Crush Guy." But, hey, it's far from the most uncomfortable I've been in these situations, so you're actually doing fairly alright in that regard.
Thank you for the well wishes; I'll probably be needing them, ha! And no, I think you've quelled the fires against you, for now. (Joking- this is why I do the stupid videos...)
She pauses briefly, looking over at the newest gift and carefully unfolds it, trying to work out the creases as she goes. Once it's unveiled, she stops to look at it for a long while, a bit surprised by how much she genuinely likes it. She sets it aside with a mental note to hang it up later- ideally before their next band practice. She wouldn't be attaching a photo of it to the post, to help keep the surprise til then.
And again for the gifts. I think the rest of the band will really dig this one, honestly- especially Stills. It's very nice.
She gives it a once over before nodding to herself and hitting send, content. Then, setting the letter and the poster further aside, as to not crumple them, Kim moves to curl up at the top of her bed in a tight ball, eyes sliding shut peacefully. I'll think about things later. Ball time, she thinks idly, and then thankfully, blissfully, proceeds to continue thinking nothing at all.
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*bursts through your window at 4AM wearing bloodied Hamlet costume* Hey Tort beloved i got you a whole chicken and an egg for breakfast:
Batman VS. Bruce Wayne— which one, in your opinion, is the person and which one is the persona? Realistically, when hell breaks loose on a good god abiding gotham day, which one could Bruce lose and still have his identity remain somewhat intact? I know different comics and media take complete separate parts of him as what makes him, but which one do you think makes Bruce Wayne who he is at heart?
Hi! You're not the first person to ask, so I'll put these two together. Thank you for the hearty breakfast and please accept these cakes as apology for how delayed this answer is (you and Anon both).
To be honest, I consider the question of "which one is real, which one is fake" as a bit overdone... and needlessly complicated. Especially because many times when people bring up the debate, they're thinking of "Brucie Wayne" and "Batman", with arguments of Batman being the real personality seemingly always correct and almost obvious. This oversimplifies things, because there's "Brucie Wayne", there's Batman, and then there's just Bruce.
Is the persona of "Brucie Wayne", the ditzy womanizing playboy with half a braincell, fake? Yes, absolutely. That one's a mask which serves the purpose of hiding the existence of Batman. But is that the same as Bruce Wayne, the man we see joke around with Alfred in the Cave, interact honestly with Dick and the Family and Talia and Selina and so many others-- the human underneath Batman? No, it isn't. That Bruce Wayne is very real. And Batman is not a separate persona or a mask, it's just another facet of the same person, borne out of Bruce Wayne's trauma. Batman is so many things... a coping mechanism, a way to commit suicide, the fantasy of who Bruce would like to be; but he's got roots within Bruce to such a fundamental extent that calling him a mask, or a persona, feels wrong to me. Batman is both the worst and the best of Bruce Wayne. There's no separating them... no matter how badly Bruce would like to make it that way.
Because Bruce has struggled (and still does) a lot, both with admitting to himself that there's more to him than the existence of Batman, and with maintaining a balance between the many personas he wears. "Batman is the real one, Bruce Wayne is fake" is something Bruce desperately wanted to believe and make real himself, in multiple stories. This is where this long-standing fandom belief probably stems from: from Bruce having convinced himself that "Bruce Wayne" is dead, and that there isn't anything left to him but Batman. Hell, Bruce has literally tried to "kill" Bruce Wayne and only be Batman in Bruce Wayne, Murderer? and Bruce Wayne, Fugitive; this is probably the story arc that dealt with this divide in Bruce's psyche in the most depth, I absolutely recommend giving it a read.
However, the more important thing is the why. Why this constant struggle? And it's a simple reason... maintaining ties to his humanity versus giving himself over entirely to the Vow. Batman was forged out of Bruce's pain, and is a response to loss. Batman is how Bruce channels his emotions into purpose. Batman will always want to never go through the loss of loved ones again, and the simplest solution to that is to never care again. Never have romantic relationships, maintain a distance from all the people in his life. But humans can't live like that. Bruce can't live like that, he needs grounding by the many relationships he does have, despite how much the side of him that's Batman pulls in the other direction. That's why Bruce Wayne, Fugitive ends like this:
And the thing is, we keep having the same story, over and over. Bruce nearly being consumed by Batman, and then finding his way back, most of the time with the help of his Family.
Here's another instance:
Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #140
And another one, which so beautifully illustrates how Batman and Bruce Wayne are the same, but also how Batman contains a suicidal and self-destructive side of Bruce too:
Batman: Ego
(Lol. Yeah this is your life, man.)
But you could find an equal number of examples in which Bruce declares that "Bruce Wayne" is useless and disposable, and that Batman is the only thing that matters (e.g., Robin 1993 #125). Because again, this is comics. There's no finality in sight, no traditional ending that everything we read is heading towards. Bruce will keep doing this dance, will keep having to learn how to balance these two sides of himself. Most recently this happened in Zdarsky's Batman run, with the conflict between Bruce and the Batman of Zur-en-Arrh... but don't even get me started on that utter disappointment.
Actually though, @psalmsofpsychosis, this part of your question is quite interesting: "Realistically, when hell breaks loose on a good god abiding gotham day, which one could Bruce lose and still have his identity remain somewhat intact?" Because there have been times of crisis in which this has happened, in comics. And what Bruce did is probably not what you'd expect. This answer got long enough though, so I'm putting the rest under the cut.
Bruce has gone through a lot. There's been many catastrophic-level events he's dealt with. And at first glance, you'd think that he'd consistently fall back on Batman, if that's who he "really" is. But when his will genuinely breaks, that isn't what always happens. In Batman: Cult, a story that takes place towards the end of Bruce's first decade as Batman, after Jason became Robin, shows that Bruce can give up:
Batman: The Cult
Bruce abandons Gotham, and with it, Batman. Obviously, he eventually comes back. But it had to be Jason dragging him around for half this issue just to make him fight, just to make him function. (Much earlier than this, in Going Sane, he also considered just leaving Batman behind. But that story is deeply intertwined with Joker's identity as much as his, so I'm just mentioning it.)
And then Barbara gets shot, Jason dies, Bane goes after Batman in the Knightfall arc... it's just one thing after the other for the poor guy. Knightfall and its continuations are very extensive and many things happen, but after Bruce's spine is broken, he leaves Jean-Paul Valley in the role of Batman. And even after Bruce's injuries get healed, making a previously proclaimed goal of becoming Batman again much easier, he tells Tim that he doesn't want to come back. That he wants to stay retired, and "rejoin humanity":
Batman: Knightquest
Tim has to tell him of a crime that Azrael as Batman did, which is impossible to ignore... and Bruce has to confront Jean-Paul and see the truth of him having gone mad himself, before he decides to retrain and "become worthy" of his Batman identity once more.
Then, in a much bigger and well-known storyline that follows the Cataclysm event, Batman disappears for months. No Man's Land starts with a world in which Bruce has been away in Monaco trying to be someone else, instead of in Gotham, being Batman and taking control of the wrecked city which had been abandoned by all. Oh he comes back, but still...
No Man's Land: Ground Zero
So. Batman isn't his "real" identity, it isn't the core of him. Many times, he's wanted to run away and leave Batman behind, just like in some stories he was ready to completely destroy the "Bruce Wayne" identity and only be Batman. But in times of crisis, he repeatedly tried to leave and find happiness outside of Gotham and carrying the mantle of Batman... without succeeding.
Sometimes, Bruce hates Batman, and tries to run away. And other times, Batman hates Bruce, and tries to destroy him. It's a constant give-and-take, and neither facet of him has managed to succeed so far, because Bruce is Batman. There's no one without the other.
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