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neverwritewhatyouknow · 9 months

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Hi, so, I agree that we're unlikely to get even a token reference to Hanukkah or Magen David pendant in the movie. I assume that if they'd kept any references to Nora being Jewish in the movie, the powers-that-be would've publicized it to deflect criticism about casting a non-Jewish actress. Since that didn't happen, my guess is that Jews just Won't Exist in the RWRB movie 'verse.

But I was curious about something in one of your recent posts about how, in order for the for the film to convey Nora's Jewishness despite Rachel not being Jewish, it would have to rely on stereotypes like Hanukkah or a necklace, etc. (I don't have your post right in front of me, so my paraphrasing might be slightly off.) My question, I guess, is how that differs from the book. Admittedly, it's been a few years since I've read it, but to the best of my recollection, Nora's Jewish identity relies largely on stereotypes, such as her very stereotypical Ashkenazi appearance, a necklace at the NYE party (I think), and the Hanukkah reference. I think that's it. Which was enough for me when I read the book--just the existence of a queer Jew on the page was so validating for me as a queer Jew--but, at the same time... If the movie *were* to rely on the same token references to Nora's identity--which, as you pointed out, are kind of the very low bar/lowest common denominator cultural signs representing Jews in media--then does that really make Nora's identity in the book Great Representation? I'm not terribly invested in the entire discourse of good vs. bad representation, but I'm just curious what you think about the difference between using those specific cultural signifiers in the book vs. the film, independent of the casting of a Jewish actress. Like, if the film had cast a Jewish actress--say Kat Graham, if we're looking for a Black Jewish actress relatively close to Taylor in age--and then only had her wear a necklace and make an offhanded reference to Hanukkah, would it still seem like they were relying on stereotypes to convey her Jewishness? Is it relevant here that with the other minority characters, most viewers can readily identify that the casting is book!canon-compliant, while they probably wouldn't automatically read a Black actress as Jewish without very basic cues?

(On a different topic, I just wanted to point out that Greg Berlanti has done this before. I'm not sure how much creative control he had in RWRB production, but he directed and was deeply involved with creative decisions for Love, Simon. Not sure if you've read the book/seen the film, but in the book, Simon's friend Nick is Jewish. In the film, they cast Jorge Lendeborg Jr., a Dominican actor who isn't Jewish to the best of my knowledge. The film then very clearly erased the character's Jewishness by having him make a joke to Simon about the time they got tipsy on Manischewitz at their other friend Leah's... I think it was a Seder. Anyway, Leah is *not* Jewish in the books, which the Jewish author of the series has confirmed, and actress Katherine Langford isn't Jewish to the best of my knowledge, but what does Katherine Langford have? Whiteness and wavy brown hair, the stereotypical physical markers of Ashkenazi identity! So. Anyway. Just wanted to point out that Berlanti/his production company have done this before: taking a canonically Jewish character, casting a non-Jewish actor of color while hoping no one would notice the erasure of that character's Jewishness, and in that particular case, just... faffing Jewishness on the character who ~looked more stereotypically Jewish, even though the actress wasn't, and hoping that would appease viewers, I guess. I don't know how other viewers felt about it, but I know that it really got under my skin at the time. And it felt like a slap in the face that they just assigned Nick's Jewish identity to another character. I almost would've preferred if they hadn't bothered making the other character Jewish because it didn't actually feel like real representation to me, just a throwaway line/joke, probably to avoid criticism, or maybe to appease the Jewish author. But, hey, Berlanti got a visually diverse cast, so why should he have spent the extra time finding a Jewish Latino actor for Nick??? /sarcasm. But, yeah, it's starting to feel like a pattern in media, and it just pisses me off so much because they could be casting non-white Jews! That would be really great to remind non-Jewish viewers that not all Jews are white! But instead... this.)

Anyway, sorry this is long and rambly and kind of rant-y, but I'm glad you're talking about this. I know you get a lot of hate, so I just wanted to say that I appreciate the attention you're calling to this. I often don't feel secure enough in my own Jewishness to critique antisemitism in media, so I really respect what you're doing here.

Hey Anon!!!!

You win the award for the longest ask I’ve ever had. It’s a good award, don’t worry, I love when people have a bunch of stuff to say.

I’m gonna try and answer this in parts by paragraph, but if I skip something just lmk.

1. Totally agree. They know that people, or at the very least, one person is very vocal about it and they’ve had so many opportunities to say something and haven’t. I’ve contacted them via social media and email, they’ve been silent in all the ways. While Casey has been very vocal about literally everything else, and the director (who blocked me when I called everything out and told him that Rachel was receiving antisemitic hate) is always posting RWRB stuff. So, they’re aware and vocal, just not caring.

2. My feelings on this, is that in the book, Nora is Jewish and any description of Hanukkah and her physical characteristics are there to show that she’s Jewish, because it’s a book. We can’t see it, there has to be some sort of description. Did Casey do the bare minimum and rely on stereotypes? Yes. Not harmful ones, per say, like I have dark curly hair and would go home for Hanukkah, but it’s clear the CMQ doesn’t know a lot about Jews in general (I have another post on that and about how Nora’s book rep is fine, but when looking at it from the movie lens, is a little stereotypical and can border on offensive by giving her the rich Jew trope). BUT, that said, Nora in the book, in my opinion, is solid Jewish rep because she was Jewish on every page without it being constantly brought up. I would say that given what we normally get, Nora was pretty good rep. And given what is known of CMQ’s background and present, and the lack of Jewish education, Nora was fine. Could there have been more or better or different stuff? Absolutely. But at least Nora was a person and not a caricature, you know?

3. If the actress was Black and Jewish and they had her wearing jewelry to signify it, it would fit the character more than throwing it on a non-Jewish actress and saying “look we made a Jew.” It becomes less of a stereotype and more of just a symbol. But even if they didn’t have any of the signifiers, just having a Jew onscreen would be representation enough. Would people instantly think she was Jewish if she didn’t “look Jewish?”Probably not. But she would be, and that’s what’s important. The same way that if a character (beyond RWRB) was any other minority, they wouldn’t have to parade around with a gay flag or a trans button or a T-shirt that says they’re Indigenous. Just the existence would be enough. And if they then relied on some of those signifiers, as long as they aren’t harmful or done purposely to make a drastic big deal, it wouldn’t be forced, it would be much more natural. But just relying on stereotypes is different than a little cue in. A Jewish character played by a Jewish actor wearing a Magen David… that’s power, that’s common, if handled right, it’s basic in a usual way. Is it a little stereotypical since not all Jews wear one? Sure, but it’s not a bad symbol. A Jewish character played by a non-Jew wearing one… that’s a stereotype, that’s using our most important and well-known symbol to make a Jewish character beyond anything else. History lesson for those who don’t know: During The Holocaust, Jews had to wear yellow stars on their clothes so people could instantly recognize them as Jews. So if a Jewish character (played by a Jew) is wearing one, fine, it fits, it could clue the audience in if they would have no other way of knowing but it’s not needed because their existence is enough. If a non-Jew is wearing one, it feels like you’re saying the star that was used to mark our death is the only way we can exist as alive in your production. Tell me if that was all a rambling mess!!!!!

4. No. I did not know that. I saw that movie, but never read the book, so I had no idea that he was supposed to be Jewish. Which is basically exactly what’s about to happen to Nora. Here’s a little thing I feel like people don’t know about good ol’ Greg…

He’s not Jewish. His partner isn’t Jewish. They’re raising their kids Jewish (his kids technically are Jewish via egg donor, but the raising in faith would make them Jewish regardless, I bring this up not for the kids themselves but for the fact that Greg is kinda… taking the parts of Jewish was he wants and leaving the rest.). He says he grew up in an area that was massively Jewish and Italian and said “I’m not sure that I knew if I was one or the other until I was 9 or 10.” What the actual fuck, Greg??! What?!! No. That’s not okay. He was raised Catholic and was an alter boy. He knew as a kid that he wasn’t Jewish religiously and he the way that he twists being Italian and Jewish together is just… wrong. He treats Jewishness like a toy, like a coat to put on and take off. He said he always felt enthralled and comfortable around the Jewish faith (that it was the faith he felt the most comfortable in beyond their (Catholic) faith) and that’s why he’s raising his kids in it, but he and his husband don’t want to convert, that’s fine you don’t have to, I guess that’s up to you. We’re a great religion and community, please raise your kids Jewish, if you’re serious about that. BUT the issue comes with the fact that he wants only the good parts of being Jewish, and won’t look at the bad parts— the hate, the antisemitism, all of that. We’re a toy for him. He says that since his son “thinks he’s Jewish” that it took pressure off of him actually being Jewish. His exact words are “At some point, I’m going to have to make that transition.” Being Jewish to him is a chore, something he’s reluctant to do, but he says he has to, like a child dragging their feet to do their chores. This is different from a convert who felt such a strong pull and wanted to be a part of the community and family. What Greg is doing is not that. He’s putting on a show. He’s letting people think he’s Jewish for clout, he likes that it gives him a Hollywood edge, a diverse credit, but he can still say that he isn’t Jewish when it comes down to it. They do Shabbat and keep traditions and that’s all fine, he said he went to Israel and it was profound, okay. But notice what he still refuses to call himself, what he literally laughs off being known as… A Jew. He doesn’t want to be Jewish, he just wants to reap the benefits. He’ll talk about his Jewish identity while saying that converting is something he’s going to be forced to do. He only talks about Jewish in terms of faith, and he purposely sought out a Jewish egg donor for his children which he said was “not an easy thing to find, by the way.” to keep things kosher in the eyes of religion. I wonder if since the faith was what brought him in and he seems really set upon the fact that Jewish = religious, if he doesn’t even think about the fact that Jews are more than that. He claims as a child he didn’t know if he was Jewish or Italian, while being actively raised not-Jewish, is that a man who has a grasp on the full extent of what it means to be a Jew? He’s definitely raising his kids in the most Jewish ways he’s knows, zero issues with any of that, but the way he talks about things and the way he acts just feels so much like he’ll take the cool parts of being Jewish without the rest. It feels almost like a fetish. He’ll take the benefits of being Jewish while also actively celebrating all the Christian holidays too (in his own home, not just with family), and all the while refusing to even take the idea of conversation seriously (as he says it’s “pressure” and a “transition” and something he’ll have to do someday.) He plays the role of the “Jewish” Hollywood executive to get ahead, but when it comes to standing up for Jews in his productions, he’ll erase them because he’s scared of the backlash that comes with putting Jewish characters into stuff. He wants the happy parts of being Jewish, the place that felt comfortable for him. I’m glad he feels comfortable and welcomed into Judaism, truly, but just wanting the happy parts and not facing the reality of what it means to be Jewish feels wrong.

He’s also a hypocrite. He received some hate mail after making a show with Jewish characters, with his exact words being “I chose to make the hero family of the Jewish faith— and we chose to dramatize it in a lot of ways.” and then asked how to be an advocate. Note: he claims that he experienced “antisemitism first hand” due to this hate mail. I think he experienced people being antisemitic and Jew-hate, and likely it was thrown in his direction. But… if you’re not Jewish and you’re openly non-Jewish, your experience of first hand antisemitism is going to be way different than a Jewish person’s. It’s not going to impact you the same way, it just can’t, you don’t have the lived experienced. *cough* I’ve nearly died many times *cough* He then said all this, before doing exactly what he said he would, reverting back to what he knows… Which is not having Jewish characters and using them basically as pawns.

Greg Berlanti is not an ally to Jewish characters. It’s genuinely really sad that his kids will grow up without that Jewish rep, all because of him. So far he’s done it twice, once for a boy, once for a girl— exactly like his kids.

I didn’t know any of this about Greg until this Anon pointed stuff out. But, oh boy, this is gonna be fun. Watch out, Greggy B. I’m gonna enjoy exposing you on your hypocrisy😘

Did I answer everything, Anon? Were things clear? My phone is on 5% so I’m typing super fast. Just tell me if I didn’t.

#rwrb movie #red white and royal blue #red white royal blue movie #rwrb cast #rwrb #red white and royal blue movie #nora holleran #casey mcquiston #red white royal blue cast #rachel hilson #Jewish #greg berlanti #love simon #talking with anon

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