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thepersonperson · 3 months

Note

I just want to say that I really love your analysis on Gojo and Sukuna a lot.

Can I ask for analysis of Sukuna and Yuji dynamics? It's okay if you take awhile to answer this.

(Answered as of JJK 262 using TCB Scans.)

Oh boy this one is fun!

I see Sukuna and Yuji as opposite sides of the same coin. They both have the same kind of tools but wind up at completely different conclusions because of their own personal biases.

By the way, thank you for breaking my brain anon. I'm going to consider this yet another part of my attempt to grasp Sukuna's character.

Sukuna's Loneliness Part 3 (Sukuna's hatred of Yuji is jealousy.)

Part 1 Part 2 Part 4

Click images for captions/citations.

Yuji and Sukuna's Shrine

Gege does this really clever thing where kanji used to describe a Cursed Technique (CT) have multiple readings, especially if you look past the initial proposed reading. In a way, this is teaching you how to read the text. The face-value reading, albeit true, hides another reading underneath.

Dismantle comes from the kanji 解 (Kai). This kanji can mean to unravel, to explain, to understand, to solve, to cut. It’s first introduced with chef knives which pushes the reader to interpret the meaning as “to cut”. However, this doesn't mean it's not carrying the other readings at the same time. The cutting is not simply cutting, it's a purposeful unraveling in search of an answer—in other words, dismantling.

Another good translation of 解 (Kai) would be Dissect. Though dismantle gets across a similar feeling, dissect invokes a more intimate and purposeful imagery to the cutting. Both of translations are good in their own ways. It's a matter of preference for which is better.

My point here is that the technique itself indicates the user is trying to understand something closely. The surface reading isn't sufficient for the user, the insides, the guts are what they're after. Both Yuji and Sukuna embody this desire to understand others in completely opposite directions.

Yuji, Human Golden Retriever

Yuji is wholly devoted to understanding others. He unravels the hearts of those around him by being himself. Similar to Sukuna, he also mimics people he admires. Not only in battle, but casually as well, pair bonding with just about anyone who will let him.

The mimicry aspect of Yuji here is very important because it demonstrates he is trying to understand other people on their own terms and not his own. Yuji engages everyone as themselves and accepts them as they are. Him having no braincells is a boon because it means he can absorb others' with ease.

I'm extremely fond of Yuji's pair bonding with Gojo in particular. In great length I've explained how Gojo's inability to deeply connect with others since his breakup with Geto was isolating and dehumanizing. Yuji is the first person since then to match his energy exactly and without question. Usually other characters get irritated with his shenanigans and can't follow him in conversation. Yuji consistently keeps up with him in that regard even if he's confused. In this way, Yuji has done the impossible, he has gotten past some of Gojo's emotional barriers and connected with him.

This type of seemingly impossible connection is not limited to Gojo, my other favorite being Junpei. Up until Yuji meets him, Junpei is effectively groomed by Mahito into hating other people. Mahito teaches him distrust and to see human ugliness first. Junpei starts to believe everyone is rotten and therefore ok to kill. But Yuji meets him by chance and does this:

All that time Mahito spent molding Junpei into someone worse flies right out the window because Yuji wins him over by being genuine. This is the crux of Yuji's character.

Yuji's Unyielding Spirit

Just about everyone is won over by Yuji's persistent unending good boy energy, even the people who try to kill him (Megumi, the Kyoto students, Choso, Hakari, Higurama, etc.). His most interesting converts are Higurama and Hakari in my opinion. This is because Yuji's steadfast devotion to others defies their world views.

After a lifetime's worth of heartbreak as a public defender, Higurama believes that deep down all people are hideous (similar to Junpei). He's ready to kill Yuji until he takes the blame for something he didn't do. It so thoroughly shakes him that he has a meltdown over the chapter and ultimately concludes he was in the wrong.

Yuji doesn't try to make Higurama understand him here. All he does is be himself and it forces Higurama to undergo character growth that ultimately results in him understanding Yuji.

Yuji does the exact same thing to Hakari but in a different way. Hakari believes in the selfish types who are passionate in their own pursuits. He's a lot like Sukuna in that way, he straight up calls Yuji boring for doing things on the behalf of others.

Yuji doesn't care though. He's got a clear goal and he's chasing it. Hakari knocking him down over and over does nothing. Unlike with Higurama, Yuji explains exactly how he sees himself and that if Hakari can't handle it, he'll keep getting back up until he accepts it. And it works. Eventually Hakari can see the "fever" of someone who is nothing like him.

These two converts best illustrate how Yuji is the embodiment of unwavering humanity. He does things for other people and he will keep doing things for other people even it brings him pain or death. If you don't understand that kind of mentality, he'll let you pummel him until you do.

Also notice how he never once tells his converts they are wrong to think the way they do. This acceptance of their differences is very important and will be coming up later.

Yuji's Love

Yuji connects with others through mimicry (and so does Sukuna). This, of course, is an expression of love. But what really sets his love apart from others' is his ability to perceive people and their emotions—he notices things about them no one else would.

I include the bout with Panda in this collage since their entire conversation occurs nonverbally. Yuji infers how Panda is feeling and what his goals are by sparing through a fake duel. All of this shows that despite Yuji's low general intelligence, his emotional intelligence is unparalleled. In a way, this ability of his to read others is him taking after both Kenjaku and Sukuna. But he doesn't use this insight to torment others, he uses it to befriend them.

This understanding of others is not limited to those Yuji is friendly with too. Hated people and things are something he is willing to engage without hostility.

I'm using the anime screencap because Yuji immediately accepting cursed objects, Sukuna's in particular, as something to be cherished instead of scorned really needs to be talked about more. And of course his acceptance of Todo (who is just like Sukuna for reasons we will get into later) is nearly just as important as him understanding Sukuna enough to utilize him against Mahito. These are both people, despised by most of the cast, that Yuji is willing to accept and work with on their own terms.

I often use the lens of analysis in which Umineko gave me: "Without love it cannot be seen." This is referring to how one needs to set aside their negative biases and assumptions to properly see the motives behind an action. It's sort of like giving someone the benefit of the doubt in your attempt to understand them. I think Yuji is the personification of this concept. And that's why Sukuna cannot stand him.

Sukuna, King of Miscommunication

The way in which Sukuna goes about understanding others is the polar opposite of Yuji and deeply perverse. It's like how a shark uses its mouth to explore the world. Instead of using his words, Sukuna uses his cutting to feel others out. And much like a shark, the exploratory bite and attacking bite are extremely different in action despite both resulting in the same level of harm or death when experienced.

Take notice of how happy Sukuna is when cutting his playmates. He doesn't kill them immediately and uses the information from his slashes to gain a better understanding of them. This is how Sukuna interacts with the world.

It's easy to dismiss sharks as evil since their bites do harm to humans no matter the context. But if you try to understand them on shark terms, they're actually pretty adorable. In other words, without love it (shark cuteness) cannot be seen. Please keep this in mind as I attempt to convince you Sukuna is peak gap moe.

Sukuna's Affection

Sukuna is very similar to Gojo in that he displays affection in very bizarre and unpleasant ways. But unlike Gojo who just verbally assaults people, Sukuna straight up assaults them. He's more than happy to give people compliments for their efforts, but it comes at the price of enduring his violence.

As you can see some of these compliments coincide with attempts to teach his opponent how to be a better fighter. And this is where Sukuna's affection shines the most—when he reaches out to his opponent and tries to connect with them and understand them through battle.

However...every single time Sukuna tries to bond with someone this way, they try to kill him. It's kind of hilarious.

He tries to connect with the Finger Bearer, a curse of all things. Rejected.

He tries to connect with Megumi after showing him his heart. Rejected.

He tries to connect with Higurama after cutting his limbs off. Rejected.

He tries to connect with Maki via an unhinged high-praise yapfest. Rejected.

No one here engages Sukuna's dialogue. They ignore his words entirely to focus on killing him. The only time anyone listens to him is if they're Uraume, actively dying, or Kashimo.

As you can see, Sukuna primarily expresses affection through violence. It's always accompanied by a smile and sometimes a backhanded compliment. No one can recognize this as affection because getting bit by a shark hurts regardless of intent. That being said, this affectionate violence differs greatly when compared to the violence inflicted out of aggravation.

Sukuna's Pickiness

Sukuna shows his displeasure through cutting as well. This usually occurs when people reach out to him without his explicit permission. Though Sukuna is eager to form bonds with others to some degree, he absolutely loathes when expectations are thrust onto him by another party.

That kind of relationship is transactional and not between equals. They don't want Sukuna for himself, they want Sukuna for themselves. Yorozu is the epitome of this and Sukuna treats her accordingly.

Notice how in both of these instances Sukuna's expression is the furthest thing from pleased. Yorozu does recognize his loneliness but disregards how he wants to deal with it. Sukuna cuts her to keep her away from him, not to understand her, and she doesn't get it. (Also note how he refuses to use his Shrine on her in their battle. Which we’ve established as Sukuna’s tool for understanding others. He wants so little to do with her it’s funny.)

Mahito also winds up on the receiving end of "get the fudge away from me" slashes despite initially bonding with Sukuna over Yuji's suffering. They inadvertently disrespect Sukuna's boundaries through unwanted contact, much like Yorozu, leading to this reaction. (To be fair, having your soul touched by a stranger sounds pretty upsetting.) Framing Sukuna's dislike of Mahito as an annoyed hostess vs a touchy patron in joke panels is a great way to illustrate how much he values this particular boundary.

Once again, Sukuna's expressions are very clear in their disgust. These cuts are to be read as hostile. When Sukuna cuts others in this manner, he is not trying to understand them.

Sukuna's Missed Connections

Now that we know how to read Sukuna's intent through how he cuts, we can also read his mood during fights and infer how he feels about other characters.

Jogo

In this post I kind of went over why Jogo wound up being favored by Sukuna. But let's break it down some more.

Jogo started in Sukuna's doghouse. His body language, facial expressions, and treatment of Jogo initially indicates Sukuna categorized Jogo amongst the likes of Mahito and Yorozu (he did touch his face without permission). Then Jogo said he wanted nothing of Sukuna, and everything changed.

Sukuna smiles at him and plays with him in the exact same manner he tried to with the Finger Bearer and Megumi earlier. He tries to coax Jogo into going all out while taking the time to figure out why he doesn't.

And perhaps learning from past mistakes, or Yuji (though he'd probably never admit it), Sukuna engages with Jogo on his terms—fire power. This mirroring is a show of respect and an attempt to learn more about Jogo.

This is the first time we see Sukuna do such a thing. And in return he gains a deeper understanding of Jogo for it while seeing him off into the afterlife.

Another first for Sukuna, he makes a meaningful connection through combat with Jogo who listens to him and accepts him as he is. Sukuna gasses him up while simultaneously putting him down, eventually ending on a genuine compliment, believing Jogo could've become an equal to Gojo Satoru. ...And then that blossoming relationship burns to ash by Sukuna's own hands.

This is where Yuji succeeds and Sukuna fails. Yuji's love builds and Sukuna's love kills.

The main takeaways from Sukuna vs Jogo are:

>Sukuna's facial expressions are a strong indicator of how he feels about someone. (Glaring at Jogo initially when he felt disrespected and then smiling at Jogo when he became interested in him.)

>Sukuna will offer aid to those who don't demand it of him. (Promising to kill all the humans in Shibuya on Jogo's behalf and giving permission for Jogo to boss him around if certain conditions are met.)

>Sukuna holds back during fights with those he wants to understand. (Playing with Jogo and trying to coax him into fighting harder.)

>Sukuna mimics others as a form of respect. (Fire vs fire showdown.)

>Sukuna is interested in the internal logic of his opponents. (Asking why Jogo doesn't use his domain and being intrigued by his attempt to become human.)

Keep all of this in mind as I use these points to revisit Sukuna's biggest missed connection.

Gojo Satoru

Jogo and Gojo as names are interesting in that they're inverses of each other if you go by the hiragana in Japanese. I think this was deliberate. It's not a coincidence that Jogo is someone Sukuna learned he was compatible with through fighting. Nor is it a coincidence Sukuna tried to understand him on his own terms in a way that killed him. This fight winds up being a blueprint for how Sukuna attempts to connect with Gojo Satoru.

The culmination of Sukuna's attempts to understand someone other than himself is Gojo Satoru. A whole 6 months in the making, the effort Sukuna puts towards others doesn't compare. He saw the potential in Megumi and found Mahoraga, blowing up half of Shibuya to tame it. He stole Megumi's body and subjugated his soul to obtain it, using his sister/Yorozu as calibration. And he explicitly states all this was for cutting through Gojo's Infinity.

All this prep work to kill one guy, and his loved ones are tormented for it. Gojo's prized student, Megumi (who Gojo treats like a son) is bathed in curses for days and has his sister murdered by his own CT. Sukuna picked through Megumi's memories as a part of this strategy, which means he has access to these two conversations.

A very selfish dream on Gojo's end, the desire for an equal he saw in Megumi more than any other student. In other words, a little piece of Gojo's internal logic that reveals a path for exploitation. And exploit it Sukuna does, deliberately wearing Megumi's face to mess with other sorcerers.

But that's probably not the whole truth here. Though Kenjaku and Yorozu understand Sukuna to an extent, they don't understand him fully. It's definitely true he used Megumi's face to better subjugate his new vessel and throw off Gojo. And it wouldn't be wrong to assume Sukuna did this out of malice. However...

Without love it cannot be seen gives me a framework to view these actions as something beyond hatred towards Gojo. It allows me to entertain a hypothetical where this a twisted display of affection. But it doesn't give me the evidence for this. So for this dissection, I'm using another important tool from Umineko: "Flipping over the chessboard." This refers to how one should try to see things from a different perspective.

For example, many people interpreted "The one who will teach you about love is..." during their fight being about Gojo trying to teach Sukuna love.

I decided to flip over the chessboard and came to the conclusion: The one who will teach you about love is...Sukuna.

I supported this claim with the conversation where Sukuna teaches love to Kashimo while alluding that Gojo needed teaching. And now I flip over the chessboard again. If Sukuna sees himself as a teacher of love, was Sukuna vs Gojo an attempt at education?

I reread the fight again and found this:

It's very clear that the one being satisfied in this instance is Gojo and by Sukuna. This battle is technically everything Gojo hoped for from Megumi. The potential of the 10 Shadows is maximized, Mahoraga is tamed, and the Infinity Gojo has longed for someone to pierce since Toji is obliterated.

The one satisfying him now is...Sukuna.

The one who will teach you about love is...Sukuna.

The parallel syntax and a definitive answer. I'm more confident that this is how the blank is to be filled. And that's why I don't know how to interpret this fight anymore.

This story repeatedly emphasizes how selfish Sukuna is. It beats you over the head with how self-centered and uncaring his conduct is. So why is it that he has seemingly gone out of his way to satisfy Gojo on his own terms?

There's not enough information. Did Sukuna hold back with Gojo because Megumi was still resisting him, or was it an attempt to mimic Yuji and connect with him? Did he use Megumi's body and face after reading his memories to better torment Gojo or was it give him satisfaction?

So I flip over the chessboard and go back to Jogo.

Gojo didn't ask anything of Sukuna just like Jogo. Neither of them asked to have their strength validated. Sukuna is the one who came after them.

Sukuna expressed his gratitude towards Jogo for wanting nothing of him by helping him with his objective. He killed all humans in the area as he promised and gave Jogo a chance to ask for more. Instead of slaughtering Jogo instantly, Sukuna played around with him while trying to understand him, all smiles, both backhandedly and genuinely complimenting him as he died.

...And it appears that Sukuna has done the same thing for Gojo too.

According to this post 龍鱗 (ryuurin) translates to dragon scales and "describes the basic application of Limitless, a strong defensive barrier like the scales of a dragon." This reference is also Buddhist in nature likening these scales/Gojo to a "dangerous divine power/authority", aka someone more than just a fish.

Now take this hidden meaning and Sukuna's 6 month long obsession with cutting through Infinity. Take how he describes the World Slash as something that reaches its target by making them the center of Sukuna's world. And remember that this solution is a modified Dismantle—the tool which Sukuna uses to connect with and understand others.

Sukuna made Gojo Satoru the center of his world in an attempt to understand him. He cut through Infinity in the exact way Gojo has always wanted to satisfy him. This could be read as flirtation since Sukuna has told Kashimo violence is how he loves. Just as he did with Jogo, Sukuna killed Gojo with his love.

The biggest difference between how Jogo and Gojo are treated is the complete lack of Sukuna in Gojo's afterlife. Jogo let Sukuna in and they bonded in death. Gojo seemingly kept Sukuna out, choosing to be surrounded by those he felt close with as a teenager, and waxed on about how it's hard to be understood. The irony is staggering.

It's possible that Sukuna expected Gojo to let him in during death so he could learn the unspoken secrets of his most favorite plaything. There’s also the possibility Sukuna was privy to Gojo’s afterlife scene and became acutely aware Geto still had Gojo’s heart entirely. (I don't think this the case since Sukuna is bright-eyed and smiling after that sequence.) Either way, Gojo failed to realize Sukuna was trying to reach him and inadvertently rejected him.

I flip over the chessboard again, revisiting Sukuna's lecture on love to Kashimo assuming that Sukuna attempted to teach Gojo love and failed. And now I don't know how to interpret his conversation with Kashimo either.

Is he simply saying love is worthless because all he values is strength? Or is he lamenting that each and every time he has tried to love his heart has been trampled? Could it be both?

Sukuna loves eating and humans are amongst his favorite meals. In that way, he does need someone else to be satisfied. Yet he insists on the contrary all while looking for companionship with anything that moves. Sukuna has gone his entire life not caring for others. But his fights with Jogo and Gojo demonstrate the opposite. Post-Gojo death, his expressions are ones of boredom and he is far more depressed. When his opponents most resemble Gojo, his smile returns.

Sukuna is too much like Gojo here, his 2 birds 1 stone approach to obfuscating his true feelings makes him very hard to read. It really doesn't help that instead of saying "I love you" Sukuna cuts people to pieces with a smile on his face. Forget about the gap moe. Sukuna is the most tsundere of sharks.

Umineko no Naku Koro ni (When the Seagulls Cry) is a visual novel about a person who is fundamentally misunderstood by those around them. They desperately want to be loved without being perceived, believing themself to be unworthy due to trauma and immutable characteristics given to them at birth. Instead of telling anyone these feelings directly, they play games akin to torture. They torment the ones they love over and over in hopes they'll see through their actions and understand them.

The Uncle vs Nephew Problem

What does Sukuna's inability to socialize have to do with Yuji? Well...everything. Remember that similar to Yuji, Sukuna rejected Mahito—the manifestation of the hatred between humans. Symbolically, this suggests Sukuna doesn't hate humans as much as he appears to. And from how he interacts with others, this may be the case.

Sukuna tries to be himself to connect with others and fails miserably. But Yuji? He breathes and makes 10 friends instantly. And even worse, he can fight others to understand them without killing them. Either with words or with fists, Yuji can make the connections using the very tools that isolate Sukuna.

So Sukuna falls back on isolation being strength. It's fine that he's all alone because it's what makes him strong. ...And in complete opposition to that philosophy (which is a huge cope), Yuji grows through his connections with other people.

Isolation vs Cooperation

Yuji is the undisputed king of running duos, in part because he can decenter himself at will to sync up with others. It doesn't matter how well he knows them or how long he's been around them, he will find a a way to be the best support they've ever received.

Sukuna doesn't believe in this kind of cooperation or other people. But he still respects Gojo and Megumi who do, so why does Yuji piss him off? I think it's because Yuji rubs his ability to love and grow from others in Sukuna's face, constantly.

Whether he's trapped in his body or on the receiving end of his friendship beatdowns, Sukuna has been present for each and every bonding moment Yuji has through fighting. Sukuna has an involuntary front row seat to Yuji's defiance of everything he stands for.

He's forced to watch Yuji learn how to Black Flash by cooperating with Todo. And since then, Yuji has learned to proc it with anyone he pairs up with.

Near death and with Nobara? No problem.

Things look hopeless and the shiestiest guy around is barely hanging on to his dead mentor's memento? 2 Black Flashes.

Yuji is even able to sync up with a guy he's never met, whose name he doesn't know to pull off this.

And of course we can't leave out Todo Aoi himself who maximizes Yuji's black flash efficiency.

This shakes Sukuna to the soul because holy fudge, Yuji is starting to become just as strong as him without mercilessly abandoning his humanity.

And that might mean Sukuna was wrong to suffer isolation in the pursuit of strength. That would mean Sukuna endured a lifetime of misunderstanding and loneliness for no greater purpose. In fact, he might be stronger if he had someone else to grow with. Which means he could've had love and strength.

That's a painful reality to confront. It's no wonder most of the black flashes Yuji lands on Sukuna are over his broken heart.

Selfishness vs Selflessness

Earlier I claimed that Sukuna and Todo are the same kind of person. This is because they're both extremely egocentric individuals who categorize people worth their time by boring or interesting. They both hate taking orders from the people they deem boring and go about understanding people through combat. And just about everyone hates them for being this way. The difference between them is Yuji and restraint with their opponents. (Todo doesn't outright kill the boring people, he just beats them half to death. And though he beats up the interesting people too, he allows them to grow for the next time.)

Note how Yuji matches Todo's communication style. He chooses to learn about Todo through combat and their relationship grows along with their strength, all without death. Yuji understands Todo and Todo understands Yuji. This is exactly what Sukuna has been trying to do.

Now Todo sees Yuji as his brother, aka someone with the potential to rise to his level and beyond. He doesn't mind at all that Yuji fights for others and Yuji doesn't mind that Todo fights to stave off boredom. Their relationship shows that someone as selfish and isolated as Todo (aka Sukuna) is capable of coexisting and growing with someone.

Sukuna rejects this on principle, going out of his way to destroy Yuji's bonds and ideals. He mocks his cog mentality and lectures him on this weakness. But like the fraud he is, Sukuna copies Yuji and obtains greater power by becoming obsessed with someone other than himself.

His fight with Gojo and the preparation up to it mirrors everything he hates about Yuji. Sukuna learns all about Gojo Satoru to find a way to kill him. He engages the fight on Gojo's terms and reaches out to satisfy him. And worst of all Sukuna grows through this—he upgrades his CT by making someone else the center of his world.

The fact this happened means Yuji was right about everything, so all Sukuna has left is denial. Yuji is boring, he's a brat, he's weak, he'll never reach his level. Because if he does, well, Sukuna's entire world view falls apart.

We saw this with Higurama and Hakari vs Yuji. Both of them eventually accepted that these differing ideas can exist together. Sukuna can't be like them since he keeps borrowing Yuji's tactics instead of sticking to his own ideas. He's defrauded himself and Yuji has to pay for this.

Rejection vs Acceptance

So that's the rub. Yuji is strong and properly loved through his unwavering good boy energy alone and this breaks Sukuna's brain. It's hard to read this as anything other than jealousy since Sukuna is watching Yuji obtain the things he's been denied using the exact same toolkit. And though Sukuna rejects Yuji for this, Yuji accepts Sukuna for what he is, just as he does everyone else.

All Sukuna has do is accept that Yuji's way of thinking is just as valid as his. But he can't since they're too similar. Yuji's existence forces Sukuna to confront a reality he's not emotionally equipped to handle. Instead of facing these emotional problems head on, he buries them and blames everyone else in a combination of envy and denial.

Deep down Sukuna knows he's in the wrong, otherwise Yuji's punches wouldn't shake his soul.

#cactus yaps #In summary: Yuji and Sukuna's dynamic is peak “pathetic adult has beef with a literal child”.#Yuji is more emotionally mature than his uncle and Sukuna is mad his nephew is better than him at something.#Sukuna also sees everything he could've had in Yuji and can't handle it.#Every time I reevaluate Sukuna's relationship with love I find something new and mind breaking.#I’m never going to stop thinking about Sukuna’s canonical negative rizz.#Once again I'm considering tagging this with the ships Sukugo and possibly Sukujo.#Gojo's pussy haunts the narrative but Jogo has insurmountable rizz.#Why are Sukuna and Gojo so Umineko? Also read Umineko there are cannibal lesbians. (Which is very Sukugo if you ask me.)#asks #ryomen sukuna #itadori yuuji #jjk spoilers #jujutsu kaisen

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necrotic-nephilim · 1 month

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@sasheneskywalker i love when you enable me to ramble about things because oh my god do i have thoughts.

so recently, i made a post discussing the phenomena of DC x DP and DC x MLB crossovers and why they exist and part of that post was discussing how largely speaking, at least half, if not more of the Batfamily fandom doesn't read the comics. if they interact with canon DC material, it's adaptations that are their own sequestered universes and oftentimes not remotely comic accurate or seeking to be. the most obvious example is the Young Justice cartoon. i'm adding a cut to this post because it just got so long i'm so sorry.

a lot of times, when people are discussing the "why" of this oversaturation of fanon-only fandom, they blame Wayne Family Adventures. and i think, to a point, i agree WFA is responsible for a boom in this fandom. but as someone who's been in the fandom long before we had WFA, to me it's the other way around. WFA was DC's way of meeting the demand for this easy-to-get-into, easy-to-consume content about the Batfamily that predicates itself on the comics just enough to be vaguely the same characters, but has a more sitcom, slice-of-life sort of vibe so DC could profit off of this section of the fanbase that otherwise wasn't consuming its primary material. and well, it's definitely worked. not only that, but i have a weird theory that the decline in the MCU also led to the rise in the Batfamily fandom. when you consider the fan content that made the MCU popular within fandom, it's that 2012 "they all live in Avengers Tower and Thor is eating poptarts and Clint is in the vents and there are movie nights every Friday" sort of vibe. those were the fics that were a hallmark of the fandom. and as the MCU has strayed from well... quality content in general, but specifically well-thought-out crossover content where characters can have their own arcs but also exist in a wider story where they clearly care about each other, that fandom was sort of homeless. so where do you go, if you like a superhero found family where you can have villains for angst but also stick them all in one big family-like home for silly crack and have a plethora of options for gay ships? well. you go to the Batfamily. if you write a crack/fluff Batfamily genfic with silly vibes and low stakes instead of say, a fic about a very specific comic issue even if it's a popular comic, you're *going* to get more traction for the former. because the fanbase largely just isn't reading the comics.

and i feel... complicated about this. because on one hand, Don't Like Don't Read has been a tenet of my fandom experience. i'm very pro-fandom and that includes fandom content i don't like. and to an extent, i do think this sort of should apply to Batfamily fanon. i enjoy having my moments with other comic purists, giggling over exceptionally painful OOC headcanons or even facepalming in pain over some content but it is on me to not interact with that content. you don't make fandom a better place by being hostile to fans who engage with canon in ways you don't approve of. and frankly? we as comic readers are not going to get non-comic fans to read the comics by being asshats to them. no one is going to want to pick up any comic if we get a superiority complex about it. and also, i feel like we're all lying to ourselves a little bit insisting comics are so, so easy to get into. they're not. we can just all agree, they're really not. i've been single-handedly helping my sister get into comics, specifically Wonder Woman and no matter how simple i make it, i watch her get frustrated trying to understand what pre-Crisis and post-Crisis and New-52 and Flashpoint and all these things mean and what a retcon vs a reboot is and what a Crisis Event is and what the hell Diana's current backstory even *is*. sure, you can give someone a beginner list of comics to start with and slowly dip their toes in the water but sooner or later, *something* is going to confuse them. comics as a medium straight up aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. and if someone *just* wants to read silly fluffy fanfiction about the Batfamily, i can't entirely begrudge them for not wanting to take the hours and hours out of their day to understand this medium. it's not an accessible medium to get into. "read this and this, but this run is out of print and this run wasn't collected in trades at all but also make sure you read that event in order and this is a good comic but the backstory in it is retconned and you *have* to read this it's so important but it's also really bad because the author kind of sucks" sounds. ridiculous for someone who like. just wants to read some stuff about Nightwing. sometimes, we all make reading comics sort of sound like a chore, not a hobby.

so my point is, i do extend some grace to Batfamily fanon for existing. i think my biggest gripe is, as i said in my other post, misuse of tags (if you're not creating content about comics, maybe you don't need the comics fandom tag on Ao3, just the all media types umbrella tag) and my far bigger gripe: when panels are taken out of context to support fanon only headcanons. if i could impart *anything* onto the Batfamily fandom as a comic fan it'd be this: if you haven't *read* the comic, don't spread the panel. if you don't even know what comic it's *from*, don't spread the panel. it's fine to use comic panels to discuss your headcanons, but so often i see someone spreading a comic panel from a comic they haven't read, and when asked where it's from, they can't source it. a silly example that comes to mind is a post going around, taking a panel where Dick, in his internal monologue goes "here comes the sun. do do do do." and the post is claiming it's from him getting buried alive. when that panel comes from Nightwing (1996) #140, and he gets buried alive in Nightwing (1996) #127, two completely different moments frankensteined together. if you're going to not read the comics, that's completely fine, but unless you're sure of the source and the context, panels shouldn't be spread around. i'm sick of this specifically happening to Red Robin (2009), with ppl claiming Tim has totally killed people because he blew up some of Ra's' bases, when those panels within context, make it clear he gave everyone time to escape. and in a later arc in that very comic, Tim grapples with the idea of murdering Captain Boomerang, and *specifically chooses not to*, because he doesn't agree with murder, even against the person who has hurt him the most. if you'd like to write fanfiction where Tim is pro-murder and has done some sketch things, i'm totally on board and would probably like to read it. but there's no need to pretend it's canon from a few panels you saw out of context.

beyond that, i think it's not *entirely* correct to say that fanon is harmless. whenever i see very WFA-positive posts, they often default to the argument that WFA is fun and silly, and comic fans are killjoys for not liking it. which. i think is complicated because the issue is, WFA and fanon don't exist in a vacuum. if you like WFA power to you, i don't think it's the worst thing ever, but i do think it's degrading to these characters because honestly? they feel incompetent in the webtoon. it's one thing if WFA was solely a slice-of-life sort of deal, just having silly episodes where Bruce is taking on a PTA mom or they're all fighting for the last cookie. but when WFA attempts to take on more serious plots with these characters, it *fundamentally* falls flat in understanding them. i get it, Bruce comforting Jason having a panic attack because a noise reminded him of the crowbar felt cute in a microcosm, but i'm so serious when i say that storyline destroyed how like. half of this fandom understands Jason Todd's relationship to his trauma. it doesn't understand how he reacts when he's triggered, what coping mechanisms he seeks out, and how he would handle Bruce comforting him. even if i can believe for a brief moment Jason *would* be triggered by something like that, him running and trying to hide and then getting a hug from Bruce to make it okay is just. painful. WFA needs everything to be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow. so even when it starts to tackle interesting concepts, it makes them fall flat with its need to be soft, low stakes, hurt/comfort. there was a two-parter episode that dealt with the complicated mutual hatred/jealousy between Tim and Damian that *almost* really interested me because for once, it felt like the webtoon wanted to explore canon messy dynamics. but of course, it had to be fixed with one conversation and a hug. you don't mend the *years* of issues these characters have like that. WFA isn't in character because these characters are hyperbole cartoonified versions of themselves to fit within the medium and be a cute happy family.

because that right there, is the crux of it. the Batfamily fanon seeks to simplify the Batfamily and force them into a nuclear family. there are so many fantastic posts on here discussing how the nuclear family-ification of the Batfam is eroding decades worth of complex histories so i won't go too far into that. but what i will say is that there's this need, in the Batfamily fandom, for the Batfamily to exist as a unit. they are a *family*. (honestly i think calling it the Batfamily is a misnomer and has been for years but we're in too deep now.) they exist to each other first, and any teams or friends they have come secondary to this family unit. you can *specifically* see this demonstrated in what headcanons are becoming popular these days. i have an entire lengthy meta in my drafts about how i *loathe* the "the Batfamily meets the Justice League" genre of fanfic because it makes no *sense*. in order to have this genre of fic exist, you must operate under the assumption that no one in the League, or adjacent to the League, knows the Batfamily exists and are thus utterly shocked to discover Batman has kids. and to make *that* work, you have to strip *every single Batfamily member* of such important dynamics and friendships so you can lock them all in Gotham for their whole lives. Dick can't have the Titans, Tim can't have Young Justice, Duke & Cass can't have the Outsiders, Jason can't have the Outlaws, Damian can't have the Supersons, Babs can't have the Birds of Prey, and so on. because if they had these relationships, they would be known to the League. the Batfamily fandom doesn't care about this, it's just "silly fanfiction", it's not trying to be serious. but how can you say you like Dick Grayson as a character if you don't understand the Titans *are* his family? at some points of his life, moreso than the Batfamily even is. it is constantly repeated to us in most comics with Dick how much the Titans mean to him. he *needs* them to be who he is. the same extends to every other Batfamily member, most of which have been full League members at this point. but in fanon, that doesn't matter. the Batfamily are a sequestered unit first, and all of those side relationships are secondary and easy to toss away, if it makes your fanfic work better.

and because they have to be a unit first, you have these forced relationships that dump years of actual canon material for the sake of making them get along. the Batfamily fandom has its favorites and well. it's no secret it's usually the boys. Jason and Tim by *far* stand out as fandom faves so, their dynamic is a heavily explored one. it does matter that in canon they don't tend to get along and especially don't see each other as family. what matters is that you can push dynamics onto them. and so fanon gets all twisted up about which Robin Tim actually idolized as a kid (Dick) and what member of the Batfamily is pro-murder but still an older sibling figure to him and looks out for him (Helena, or if you want the dynamic of once tried to harm Tim but they've reconciled, Jean-Paul) in favor of who's the most popular. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian are always going to be the standouts for popularity, but it's specifically Jason and Tim who are getting fanonized the most. and that's because really, we don't have much canon content of Tim that *isn't* the comics. for Dick you've got Young Justice (tv), for Damian you've got the DCAMU, for Jason you've sort of got the Under The Red Hood movie, but Tim sort of lingers in this limbo. (yes, he's in Young Justce (tv) and Titans (live action) but in neither is he the main character nor given much depth) so, he gets a *lot* projected onto him and has become fanonized. and even with Jason's animated movies, you don't see him interact with Tim, so people build it from the ground up how they want to see it, disregarding of canon comics. i think it's what makes him so popular in the first place- he's malleable into whatever you want or need him to be.

and of course, the fanon ignores other characters in the Batfamily it doesn't know about. i feel like you could create a tier list of Batfamily characters by their popularity, going from the fandom main characters: Tim, Jason, Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian. to the underrated: Steph, Duke, Babs, Cass. to the forgotten about unless they're convenient for a story: Kate, the Foxes, Helena Wayne, Carrie, Selina, Harper Row, Maps, Minhkhoa Khan. to the absolutely unknown: Helena Bertinelli, Jean-Paul Valley, Onyx Adams, the Clovers, Julia Pennyworth. it's not lost on me that the ignored characters tend to be women and people of color. which is both a canon and fanon problem, DC will continue adding interesting characters to the Batfamily, play with them for a few years, then drop them to default to the "Batboys" again. and it's a vicious cycle of the fandom only caring about the "Batboys", and thus people entering the fandom via fanon osmosis won't have content about the other characters, therefore, they won't be interested in those characters enough to create it, and it's just this ouroboros consuming itself, no matter how much canon content we have of these other characters. and it's ridiculous just how large the Batfamily is becoming because of this, which is why i'm a pre-Flashpoint fan, because then the Batfamily was contained enough to actually feel like a family with every character having nuances relationships with each other, but i digress because those thoughts could be their own post.

and the thing about fanon is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. DC has started turning the comics to accommodate for what fans are asking for, because fans will beg and beg for content they're not going to consume. Tim Drake: Robin had Tim as a coffee drinker because that's the fanon accepted headcanon. and the resolution of the recent Gotham War arc was for Bruce to buy this new manor for everyone to move in and call him. nevermind that most of these characters have their own homes and have zero reason to be moving in with Bruce. Tim had his marina in Tim Drake: Robin, Dick has Bludhaven, Cass and Steph have their little side of town in Batgirls (2022), and so on. these characters are being forced together as a unit, as one big happy family living together, to appease what non-comic fans want and it's damaging comic relationships. Robin: Knight Terrors saw Jason and Tim team up and working together, which i've seen varying opinions on but i personally despised. their interactions made zero sense for any of their canon history, but it appeases them being this close sibling relationship that fanon acts like they are. also the fears they faced in their respective knight terrors didn't make sense for either character and *only* worked as a moment of bringing them together so they could reassure each other and have this weird dreamscape bonding moment. the canon is bending itself to the will of fanon rather than building on the pre-existing complex relationships. Tim barely even gets along with his most important team in Dark Crisis: Young Justice because it seems the only important relationships the Batfamily can have is with each other. and when we do see them outside of the Batfamily, it only seems to be to relive the glory days like with World's Finest: Teen Titans, instead of developing them as they currently exist. this isn't recent in the comics, it feels like you can trace it back to the New-52, but it does feel a *lot* worse over the recent years. WFA is fine when it exists in its own bubble, but the simple truth is, DC content never exists on its own. the adaptations will reflect back onto the comics. (the damage the Young Justice cartoon has done to some characters should honestly be studied) and so it does frustrate me a bit when fanon-only or adaptation-only fans act like we're being nothing but killjoys for being frustrated with this. since they don't read the comics, they don't see how the comics are suffering as a result of this.

people argue about what's out of character for the comics they don't even read. i'm sorry, but "bad dad Bruce" is consistently canon. that man is just kind of shitty. when you take someone who has the drive he has, who has this need for the Mission first, who needs a teenager in spandex next to him to keep him off the ledge, that guy is sort of going to be a shitty father figure. he just is. not on purpose or with malice, but when you compare him to any other dad in a big DC family, he sure takes the cake. it's why characters like Oliver Queen tend to *really* fucking hate Bruce for how he treats his kids. Bruce loves fiercely, but he doesn't do well with putting that love first. and his love is a controlling one, he is very particular about controlling how others in the Batfamily are "allowed" to operate. it's what drives the wedge between him and Dick, it's why Steph is never a true daughter to him. (besides the reason of her needing to be a love interest to Tim first, anyway-) i've never understood the massive outcry of people reacting to Bruce kinda being shitty in comics they're not reading. there are some moments that get ridiculously OOC with how cartoonishly evil he is (the whole Gotham War arc and that... complicated mess with Jason) but largely if you want sitcom loving nuclear father Bruce, you have to accept that is a fanon thing, not a canon one. the Batfamily being a nuclear family in *general* is fanon. most of the "Batkids" don't actually see Bruce in a particularly fatherly light and begging for moments where he calls them his kids or they call him dad outside of incredibly specific circumstances is just OOC.

it's getting harder and harder to exist peacefully in this fandom it feels like, if you don't comply to the standard fanon has set. i'm happy people are having fun with their blorbos, even if in ways i dislike, but that "harmless fandom fun" does ripple it's way back to canon, eventually. so i end up pretty tangled with my feelings because are fans at fault for DC making these poor decisions? probably not, but it certainly feels like an unfortunate cause-and-effect situation whether at the end of the day, nobody is happy. and of course, i know some fanon-only fans are striving to be more canon accurate and care about canon dynamics more than others, but for them it's always going to be an uphill battle with the above-mentioned out-of-context panels thrown around and ever-pervasive fanon overtaking anything that's truly seeking to be canon compliant. so really, it sometimes feels like we're all losing.

#necrotic festerings #batfamily #batfamily meta #dc comics #fandom meta #fan studies #fanon vs canon #i deleted paragraphs of this to try to make it shorter. it failed btw.#anyway i got into comics when i was like 12 with the dark knight returns #and if i hadn't been into this medium for a decade i don't think i would be able to get into it as an adult so i get it #bc i'm trying to get into marvel comics and fuck ME am i confused as fuck.#do marvel comics have like. an equivalent to crisis events?#is the ultimates like their version of the new-52? i do NOT know #it's so hard and daunting so trust me i get it #if you never wanna pick up a comic god i respect you you're so right this is fucking miserable #i want to live and let live in fandom but *god* i'm struggling here #i used to bend to the will of fanon fun fact #i wrote my share of tim and jason fics playing into fanon tropes. god i hate them *now* but they did fucking numbers.#and i used to care more about getting attention in fandom than being accurate #i've matured now. it's why i write on anonymous so much to remind myself this should be for me.#anyway i could do a character study on every batfam member as fanon vs canon #ESPECIALLY tim and jason. i know so much about them trust me.#jason todd fans annoyed me so much i once sat and read almost every fucking jason comic. i didn't even like him.#but i tell you what i know that man and he will never leave my top five characters on league of comics.#this is so long. is anyone going to read all of this.#if you do you're a fucking trooper i'm saluting you.#this isn't even all of my thoughts i had to condense myself.#bc i also have thoughts about how this means some characters no longer get to exist outside of the batfam #because they only exist as a member of the unit #ergo we have very little current content of helena bertinelli or onyx adams or duke thomas

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