#justice for elia's children

[sunspearesque]

i can't even begin to understand the thought process of rhaegar and his utterly absurd decision to take the most powerful kingsguards with him to either fight or to guard his 15-year-old mistress/abductee (?) and their babe with questionable legitimacy while leaving behind his wife and his two children (one of them is his fucking heir) to be guarded by who exactly? 16-year-old jaime lannister? (who was “guarding” the king that kept him “hostage”)

rhaegar knew damn well his father is going even more insane after a war he started by his utter stupidity and selfishness and they won’t be safe yet he didn’t bother to ensure their safety before he fucks off… the only explanation is that he didn’t give a flying fuck about anyone but himself and his delulu which makes him complicit in their tragic death as much as his mad daddy who kept them hostages and the lannisters who slaughtered them

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

Prince Rhaegar as a character often gets some deserved criticism - and a lot of underserved hate. And one of the things that I think he unfairly gets blamed for is Elia Martell's tragedy. Elia's death is one of the primary objections people have towards Rhaegar and Lyanna being depicted as a romance, with readers believing that if they were just tragic lovers, then that diminishes Elia's own tragedy.

I...disagree. It is understandable (and honestly right) that readers would rally behind Elia. Not only was she horribly brutalized and murdered, but her children suffered absolutely terrible fates as well.

However, in trying to center Rhaegar and Lyanna's doomed dalliance in this, a lot of readers are missing the answer that has been already provided to us within the narrative. Not only that, but this line of thinking also ignores the key context in which Elia's senseless murder is portrayed.

As far as the text goes, Elia’s death is laid squarely at the feet of Tywin Lannister and his men, Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch. It's House Lannister's burden to bear.

Doran for one, Elia's brother, directly blames Tywin Lannister:

“You mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children.”

The Princess in the Tower, AFFC

Even Oberyn agrees:

“Dwarf,” said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, “spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools? My brother is not a bloodthirsty man, but neither has he been asleep for sixteen years. Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more. I did not come for some mummer’s show of an inquiry. I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane … but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity That Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that.” He smiled. “An old septon once claimed I was living proof of the goodness of the gods. Do you know why that is, Imp?”

Tyrion IV, ASOS

“Is that the game we are playing?” Tyrion rubbed at his scarred nose. He had nothing to lose by telling Oberyn the truth. “There was a bear at Harrenhal, and it did kill Ser Amory Lorch.” “How sad for him,” said the Red Viper. “And for you. Do all noseless men lie so badly, I wonder?” “I am not lying. Ser Amory dragged Princess Rhaenys out from under her father’s bed and stabbed her to death. He had some men-at-arms with him, but I do not know their names.” He leaned forward. “It was Ser Gregor Clegane who smashed Prince Aegon’s head against a wall and raped your sister Elia with his blood and brains still on his hands.” “What is this, now? Truth, from a Lannister?” Oberyn smiled coldly. “Your father gave the commands, yes?” “No.” He spoke the lie without hesitation, and never stopped to ask himself why he should. The Dornishman raised one thin black eyebrow. “Such a dutiful son. And such a very feeble lie. It was Lord Tywin who presented my sister’s children to King Robert all wrapped up in crimson Lannister cloaks.”

Tyrion IX, ASOS

“Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne,” the Red Viper hissed. “You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children…“I came to hear you confess.”

Tyrion X, ASOS

Varys and Tyrion both understand that House Martell (but more specifically Doran) hates the Lannisters.

“The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him.” “All this is obvious,” said Tyrion. “The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe.” “My father once told me that a lord never lets sentiment get in the way of ambition … and it happens we have an empty seat on the small council, now that Lord Janos has taken the black.” “A council seat is not to be despised,” Varys admitted, “yet will it be enough to make a proud man forget his sister’s murder?” “Why forget?” Tyrion smiled. “I’ve promised to deliver his sister’s killers, alive or dead, as he prefers. After the war is done, to be sure.” Varys gave him a shrewd look. “My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a … certain name … when they came for her.” “Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?” In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son’s blood and brains still on his hands. “This secret is your lord father’s sworn man.” “My father would be the first to tell you that fifty thousand Dornishmen are worth one rabid dog.” Varys stroked a powdered cheek. “And if Prince Doran demands the blood of the lord who gave the command as well as the knight who did the deed …” “Robert Baratheon led the rebellion. All commands came from him, in the end.” “Robert was not at King’s Landing.” “Neither was Doran Martell.”

Tyrion IV, ACOK

Really, all the nobles know where to look at when assigning blame for Elia's murder. Tywin.

“Prince Doran comes at my son’s invitation,” Lord Tywin said calmly, “not only to join in our celebration, but to claim his seat on this council, and the justice Robert denied him for the murder of his sister Elia and her children.” Tyrion watched the faces of the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne, and Rowan, wondering if any of the three would be bold enough to say, “But Lord Tywin, wasn’t it you who presented the bodies to Robert, all wrapped up in Lannister cloaks?” None of them did, but it was there on their faces all the same. Redwyne does not give a fig, he thought, but Rowan looks fit to gag.

Tywin, for the most part, quite shamelessly tries to disassociate himself from his own moral failings; this is nothing new, because he follows this same MO with squarely blaming the Freys for the Red Wedding even though he played an integral part in planning for it.

“Then why did the Mountain kill her?” “Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.” He closed a fist. “Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape … even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of … two? Three? He said she’d kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow.” His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

“And when Oberyn demands the justice he’s come for?” “I will tell him that Ser Amory Lorch killed Elia and her children,” Lord Tywin said calmly. “So will you, if he asks.” “Ser Amory Lorch is dead,” Tyrion said flatly. “Precisely. Vargo Hoat had Ser Amory torn apart by a bear after the fall of Harrenhal. That ought to be sufficiently grisly to appease even Oberyn Martell.” “You may call that justice …” “It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl’s body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father’s bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

Tywin tries to alleviate himself of any responsibility by blaming his men, but the narrative actively calls bullshit on this (through Tywin's own son no less).

So the narrative shows through multiple POVs that Elia's murder is contextualized exclusively as a failing on Tywin Lannister and his men; not only was it a moral failing, but Tyrion also questions if it was politically necessary in the first place. It's also important to note that ASOS is when we really dive into the matter of Elia and her children (mostly through Oberyn), but we also have to remember that this is the same book as the Red Wedding. The Red Wedding, another one of Tywin's senseless massacres that he tries to postulate as politically necessary.

So, we have agreed that the blame and context for Elia's (and her children's) murder is presented through the lens of Tywin as an immoral politician who often makes politically unnecessary moves. But then we ask ourselves, can the responsibility of this tragedy be extended? Well, yes it can. And it has been in the text.

Ser Barristan extends this tragedy beyond Tywin and his men

...to King Robert.

“Prince Rhaegar had two children,” Ser Barristan told him. “Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King’s Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king.” And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin’s gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar’s children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. “I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I’ll have no part of this.”

The Kingbreaker, ADWD

Ned Stark does as well.

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

Eddard II, AGOT

And so does Tywin, who uses Robert's tacit approval as justification for this senseless act.

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. “You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert’s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert’s relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar’s children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.” His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

So if we can't extend the blame to Rhaegar, because the narrative doesn't do so either, what can we hold him responsible for? Let's take a step back and look at Rhaegar's culpability in this whole thing.

Was Rhaegar (and Lyanna) responsible for starting the war that would eventually lead to Elia's murder?

No. GRRM doesn't think so. The war actually started when King Aerys murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his heir, a bunch of other northern nobles, and then called for the heads of Robert Baratheon (Lord of Storm's End) and Ned Stark (the new Lord of Winterfell). Aerys broke the feudal contract, and so Jon Arryn declared war.

I don't think I would have stayed loyal to the Mad King. Do I think they were justified? Yes, and no. [...] There was no doubt that the Mad King was mad. He was paranoid and he was abusing his power. And Westeros has no Magna Carta or anything like that. There was no way to handle this within the rule of law. But was what they do justified? Especially when you consider that it was triggered by a personal grievance. The execution of Ned's father and brother was really a thing that radicalized Ned and put him in opposition to it. Robert was just rolling for a fight and didn't like the fact that he'd lost his girlfriend. So you know, the personal informs the political.

source

Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance was merely the spark - it led to a misunderstanding that caused Brandon Stark to ride to Kingslanding. What really caused the war was Aerys' Targaryens subsequent actions as the king. So if we want to blame someone for causing the chain of events that led to Elia's death as well as her children's, the author himself says to blame Aerys; even though I don't think this is right either because we once again stray from the necessary (and sole) context of Elia's murder - Tywin's bloody hands.

Fine. Rhaegar was not responsible for the war. But surely he is responsible for leaving Elia in King's Landing, right in the clutches of Mad King Aerys. Well, this again, is not true. As far as Rhaegar knew, Elia was in Dragonstone with Aegon and Rhaenys where he left them.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon.

“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire

At some point, Elia was called to King's Landing. And it was Aerys who kept her hostage there as insurance against possible Dornish betrayal (remember, he was paranoid).

Side Note: Aerys kept another important political hostage in King's Landing along with Elia - Jaime Lannister; this is to deter anyone from trying to blame Jaime for doing nothing. He was a teenager and a hostage himself!

“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.” He remembered how Rossart’s eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. “Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him … that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

Jaime V, ASOS

Ok, fine. So Rhaegar did not abandon her with Aerys then run off to Lyanna. But he should have done something when he came back, right? Why didn't he leave more Kings Guard with Elia and the children?

Well....this is a war. The knights of the KG are important assets on the battle field. Kings Landing, at the time, was not the most dangerous location. The KG were better off at the Trident, as a victory there would protect those who were left behind in KL.

And it's not that Rhaegar didn't do anything. Beyond going off to lead the battle himself, he tried to make moves that would help those who were back in KL (Elia and the children included).

He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

Jaime V ASOS

And Jaime's POV once again shows us that Rhaegar banked on victory at the Trident, and was fully expecting to come back to KL and amend the fraught political situation.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.” Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.” Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.” “Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.” Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

Jaime I, AFFC

So Rhaegar wasn't leaving with no care about what happened back in King's Landing. We don't know what he wanted to do with Aerys, Elia, Lyanna, and the aftermath of the war because he died at the Trident. But we do know that he, at the very least, was planning to do something.

So we can't blame Rhaegar (and Lyanna) for starting the war and we can't blame him either for abandoning Elia in King's Landing with no care about what happens next. So, again, what can we blame him for?

“It's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution.”

SSM, 09/11/1999

GRRM states that Dorne was angry about Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. What is this treatment, though?

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap.

Eddard XV, AGOT

Specifically, Rhaegar riding past Elia to crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty. Yes, that is a humiliation. And it's undeniable that no one was happy.

The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause…Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor…Eddard Stark, Brandon’s younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased.

“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire

But, humiliating Elia is not the same thing as being responsible for her death. The narrative never equates these two things in any way. Elia's death is about Tywin's immoral and blood thirsty political actions. It's about Dorne's desire for justice (or is it vengeance?) which they know they will not get from the Lannister regime. House Lannister's downfall in King's Landing will be brought about by Prince Aegon's rise - Aegon who is proclaiming to be the long lost son of Prince Rhaegar, and who is being supported by House Martell as of now.

We can criticize Rhaegar for some things, but Elia's death is surely not one of them.

[elainarcheronstotebag]

saddest part of elia’s story is that she didn’t even get to haunt the narrative. her death literally meant nothing to no one except for dorne/house martell. no, instead show!lyanna, the woman who ran away with her husband gets the sympathy and her legacy lives on. her ghost haunts robert/cersei/ned, but barely anyone even mentions elia’s name except for oberyn. elia died is such a tragic and cruel way with her children, and will never receive justice because to do so would harm lyanna’s memory.

and i don’t blame book!lyanna, because she was young and most likely a victim herself, i would like to think she’d be angry that elia died like that “for her.” i literally fall to my knees and sob anytime i think of my poor sweet beautiful angel elia and her babies:(

[franzkafkagf]

top 5 most tragic grrm characters?

ohh such a wonderful question! ♡

Theon Greyjoy

When Theon says he shouldve died with Robb at the Red Wedding... rarely did I cry so hard. For one it shows that he has given up at life ever becoming better—his entire having been worn down by Ramsay. It also shows his genuine remorse towards the betrayal of the one person he loved most in the world. The worst thing about it? Theon has no one to blame for it but himself. This line is the final admission that he fucked up, and that what has been broken can never be mended again.

2. Catelyn Stark

No, don’t, don’t cut my hair, Ned loves my hair. Catelyn's chapters just get sadder and sadder until the end. She loved her children so fiercely; and yet that blind devotion and love for them ends up causing so much death and destruction. Catelyn was a good person, whose only goal was to save her own and serve justice for her husband's death—her intentions were good, and yet she dies in the belief that her children were all dead and that all hope was lost.

3. Aegon II Targaryen

Aegon is a hard one to pin down for me because he is certainly tragic, but we don't know him the same way we do the POV characters. But it fits perfectly; he was forced to take the throne against his will, and when he accepts it and finally finds some sort of drive and purpose, his peace is cruelly snatched away from him in the form of the murder of his son. After that it's just a continuous downward spiral—he is burned and unable to walk, he runs away and while he is in hiding he hears of everyone he ever knew dying. He quite literally lost everything but his daughter— and even she he didn't get to see again; dying before being able to. He quite literally was both made and destroyed by the weight of a crown he never wanted. I think I'd sell my soul to get a few POV chapters from Aegon... imagine.

4. Elia Martell

Left behind with her babies by her husband, the man that was supposed to protect and care for them. Her death was so cruel—having to see her children die and then be brutalized herself. She had only ever been a dutiful wife and mother, and Rhaegar paid her absolute dust. The realm didn't deserve her. Need Aegon VI to be real so he can take revenge for how they treated his mother. And what for? Why did this poor woman do? What did she have to pay for? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. All that happened to her happened in service of a dusty and aged prophecy.

5. Cersei Lannister

She had been doomed by her own flaws from the very beginning. She grows up wanting to be something else than what she's supposed to be. This noble girl with a bit too much ambition, more than what's good for her as a girl in that world, certainly. The prophecy she holds onto promises riches and greatness, but also spell her eventual doom. This is the end of her—she sees a threat in everyone and alienates the people that could've actually saved her from the tragedy she has imposed upon herself.

[martellspear]

We don't know the entire story yet, so it's impossible to make a judgement like you're doing.

I'd argue that Elia was in fact in on all of Rhaegar's schemes to bring about prophecy. They both knew she couldn't have anymore kids, and so she allowed him to seek out a woman who could...Lyanna.

A crown prince must have more than 2 kids, Elia failed her only purpose. No wonder Rhaegar turned to Lyanna.

I mean, Dorne seems OK with anything so long as there's an agreement between all parties involved.

Robert didn't love any of the women he slept with. His vows meant nothing.

Rhaegar meant everything. He cared for Elia and his children, but also seemed to be in love with Lyanna. His vows had meaning, even if they were interpreted differently.

Hi, anon. I'll assume you've read "tolerate it" and that's what made you come here.

We don't know much about them but I highly doubt Elia was 100% on board with everything. I think he shared some aspects of the prophecy but can you, honestly, tell me that she would take part in the most humiliating moment of her life? Willingly?

"Jon Arryn and Robert and Lord Hunter joking a moment before what was happening dawned on them, Ned watching as Rhaegar was about to stop in front of his sister, mad Aerys glowering in the distance, Elia stiff-backed and trying to act as if nothing was wrong, Jon Connington probably looking vaguely sad, and so on." — source

That's what Paolo Puggioni, an artist George hired, said the author himself told him.

One of my darling moots put in words, better than I would ever be able to, thoughts about Elia and the polyamory relationship some people like to insert her into, you can read it here.

Yes, Elia could be accepting and supportive of others who do it, it's their life. But she's the Crown Prince's wife and future queen. Why would she even consider adding one more person to their relationship? Especially knowing the consequences of those? And not only for her personal life and her children; think about Dorne, the Stormlands and the North's reaction to such insult and pair it up with everything the war cost (Brandon and Rickard died before it even truly started). "But with Rhaegar being king-" George has made clear how fragile monarchy in Westeros actually is.

Elia would put her children in a dangerous position if she not only fully agreed to Rhaegar's plans but also welcomed Lyanna and his bastard. Additionally, I'd love it if you could point it out for me where it says a crown prince can't have only two children (seriously, I'd like to know). Elia gave him two healthy kids and it almost cost her her life, she didn't fail anything.

(consider this to be about book!rhaegar and lyanna; my thoughts on their show version couldn't be more different)

I don't think Rhaegar loved Lyanna at all. And sometimes it honestly felt like he'd rather if she died after giving birth. She was a means to an end. Personally, I believe he manipulated her and then either kept information from her (she wouldn't stay if she knew what happened to her brother and father) or kept her there against her will; two disgusting scenarios. Rhaegar was obsessed with the prophecy, he changed his entire lifestyle for it. If it was love, he could've abandoned his crown and gone to Essos 🤷🏻‍♀️.

If Elia was aware, why wasn't she in Dorne and completely safe? Why didn't Oberyn know of this? "No, but he goes after the Lannisters-" he wanted justice. Even if the person who set them up was Rhaegar, the one who gave the order was Tywin and the one who did it was his beast. Aerys and Rhaegar were not people he could go after, maybe in his afterlife.

More importantly, and I'll be repeating myself here, it doesn't matter if she loved Rhaegar or not or how deeply she did it. Rhaegar's bastard is a direct threat to her children and their future and I doubt Elia - or anyone who hasn't lost their wits - would happily comply with that.

I have done nothing but gathering information and filling voids, what most do in this fandom tbh. There's little we know of how it was like but Rhaegar did hurt Elia again and again; and I do believe he was fond of her, which only makes things worse.

I don't have to know his thoughts to know that some of his actions were disrespectful, hurtful and disgusting; Elia doesn't have to agree or be aware of his plans for crowing another woman QoL&B (and later run away with her) to be humiliating.

Rhaegar, and Rhaegar alone, handled everything with all the sensitive and grace of a reversing dump truck.

[annachum]

Female Rage in ASOIAF Universe

Cersei Lannister's is destructive, brutal and poisonous. She at first hides it with fake sweetness and diplomacy, yet capable of channeling her rage to widespread tyranny

Alicent Hightower's is toxic, destructive and poisonous. She internalized all her suffering and lashed out in the most brutal ways possible, and thus eventually destroyed herself

Helaena Targaryen's is filled with sorrow and grief. The death of Jahaerys plunged her into a madness rooted from overwhelming grief, and grief thus destroyed her

Sansa Stark's is more subtle and quiet on paper, yet she channels her rage to lead the Northerners to gain Northern Independence, and free herself from the shackles of intergenerational trauma

Margaery Tyrell's is also more subtle, often embellished with flowers and embroidery, and she channels her rage to try make a difference in Westeros.

Daenerys Targaryen's is amongst the most destructive of examples of female rage. She channels her rage to her descent to madness and tyranny, to the point it destroyed her.

Rhaenyra Targaryen's is a mixture of rage and grief. Her rage may seem more quiet on paper, yet her grievances are loud, as seen with her increasing number of mourning garments.

Aemma Arryn's is more subtle, yet filled with grief. With each miscarriage, Aemma becomes more entangled with her depression, and her daughter becomes a major source of a spark of joy in her life.

Elia Martell's is more chaotic and fiery. With Rhaegar abandoning her, Elia channels her sorrow and rage to get her and her kids flee to Dorne, and protect her family with whatever it takes

Lyanna Stark's is filled with bewilderment and grief. Having naively believed that she can have a happy life with Rhaegar, she is faced with harsh realities as she ran away with him, only for him to abandon her when SHE WAS 8 MONTHS PREGNANT. She had high hopes that her child will one day avenge her suffering, which he ( Jon Snow did )

Ellaria Sand's is fiery and destructive. She caused a widespread wave of destruction after the death of Oberyn Martell, which tragically inadvertently driven to Oberyn's daughters and her own Doom

Arya Stark's is snappy and fiery. In pursuit of justice for her family's suffering under the Lannisters, she channeled such rage to become a shieldmaiden and a chief executioner against Sansa's suffering

Catelyn Tully's is filled with grief and outrage. She had high hopes that her children will avenge her suffering, which Sansa, Arya and Bran eventually came to do.

[sunspearesque]

The Mountain v. The Viper (book version)

“Are you hungry, my prince?” “I have hungered for a long time. Though not for food. Pray tell me, when will the justice be served?” — Tyrion V, ASOS

art by Magali Villeneuve / quotes from A Storm of Swords by George R. R. Martin

[spearsndragons]

i am alive and i come bearing a gift!

CLEAN AU: Ties That Bind

aka the multi-chapter fic that’s been eating at my brain and everyone has been hoping for lmaooo

After fleeing King's Landing in the waning days of the war, Elia Martell and her children found refuge in the distant lands of Yi Ti and thrived under new identities. But with the passage of years, the desire for justice burns within them. As they embark on their journey back to the Seven Kingdoms, they must reckon with the choices that await them: vengeance, redemption, or the elusive promise of a home they never truly lost.

[lilith-91]

Damn so many Dornish fans hate the Targaryens so much when actually Dorne is the most pro-Targaryen region in the current timeline. They WANT Targaryen restoration. They WANT RHAEGAR'S son/sister/brother on the throne because they see it as the best way to avenge Elia and her children. They are not blaming Rhaegar, and that’s funny.

"We looked for Rhaegar’s sister, not his son.”— Arianne

“Daenerys Targaryen is of our blood as well. Daughter of King Aerys, Rhaegar’s sister. And she has dragons, or so the tales would have us believe.” Fire and blood. “Where is she?" - Arianne

Dornishmen are Targaryen loyalists and the revenge they want is not on Daenerys, Rhaegar or whoever else, but on the Lannisters.

“What is our heart’s desire?”

“Vengeance.” His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.”

If people let go their so called moral policing for one second and stop painting Rhaegar/Lyanna/Targaryens this cartoonish villains who gets blamed for everything bad that happened in westeros even years after their death then they'd understand how much importance they hold in asoiaf plot and the characters.

[agentrouka-blog]

Jaime push Bran out of the tower to death because he discover Jaime and Cersei having sex. He almost had maimed Arya because of Cersei. I find these acts somewhat similar to what Tywin did to Elia's children. Also him leaving Cersei and Tommen alone in KL when they needed him is basically what Rhaegar did with Elia and his children. He is not a hero.

I am such a HUGE fan of the parallels between Aegon & Rhaenys and Tommen & Myrcella. Jaime carries guilt for what happened to Rhaegar's children, but ultimately he reenacts it all, both as Rhaegar and as Tywin. He really is not a hero.

Something about the act of invoking Tywin's cruelty against the Stark children (not to mention the killing of Robert's bastards by Cersei) narratively seals the fates of the Lannister children.

Joffrey is killed while Cersei wails like Barra's mother. Myrcella is maimed with a sword and likely to be killed by someone's vengeful wrath. Tommen has foreshadowing to die from some kind of terrible impact to his head, possibly by a fall like Bran, with an uncertain reason or perpetrator. GRRM likes to visit poetic justice on his villains, and he'll kill innocents to do it.

It's a variation of the past, with different paths but ultimately the same sad end.

There's a ticking clock over these children's heads and it is hard to bear because it's not their fault.

[horizon-verizon]

Crying everyday and twice on a sunday about Elia’s Italian children yet cheering for the murder of Rhaego who is CANONICALLY BROWN is certainly a choice.

Throwing tantrums cause Daenerys living is supposedly an act of racism over Rhaenys Jasmine Targaryen Martell half Muslim and half Hindu kween of the Middle East and South Asia dying yet cheering for Rhaego’s death.

Cheering for Young Griff allegedly brown-skinned boy seeking justice for his mama (plot twist: he’s not Elia’s son and he doesn’t give a single fuck about her) killing white supremacist Daenerys and stealing her dragons yet cheering for the death of Rhaego.

The only people who cheer on the murder of Rhaego, a brown baby (since they want to emphasize race, we can do it too) are Martells stans & Starks stans (who will always gaslight you into believing that these white settler colonialists are a mix between Siberian indigenous peoples & descendants of Black chattel slavery). Very unserious and racist people. Which is why I don’t care about Elia and her children dying nor do I care about the Starks being slaughtered and losing the North. God bless 🙏

"Rhaenys Jasmine Targaryen Martell half Muslim and half Hindu kween of the Middle East and South Asia"

"these white settler colonialists are a mix between Siberian indigenous peoples & descendants of Black chattel slavery"

I just don't have any words for this masterpiece. Bless you, anon.

(I agree with all this, btw. yes, Elia's death, her kids' deaths, etc. was insanely tragic but they really pull this shit only when characters they see resemble parts of Dany or Dany herself "rock the boat"...plus female characters should not be valued in how their sons will avenge them).

[vivacissimx]

I know you have analysed them a lot but what is your fav part of rhaelya? And what's a fic idea you would like to write about them?

oh Rhaegar & Lyanna are the reason I joined fandom for the first time, so you know my love for them is special 😅 as for my favorite part: I have probably talked about this before but I'm very touched by the concept of 'human connection in a hurricane.' It's about how chaos causes panic & panic can overwhelm us but it's true purpose is clarity. In the mire of asoiaf political intrigues and betrothals, Rhaelya represents that clarity. In general, I find Rhaelya to be more similar than not (for all the icefire chatting). What do you do when you love your father but he's the reason you can't go home? If the people who love you can't help you or save you, does that turn you cruel or empathetic towards the world? When do/don't we trust?

There is also the obvious which is that Rhaegar & Lyanna fall in together because the other is what they admire. It may seem like a random & sudden pairing but really there's a mirroring from the beginning. Rhaegar sings a song to an audience which doesn't understand—Lyanna cries for a reason her family doesn't get either. Their coming together is about hiding the Knight of the Laughing Tree's identity and in that moment they see each other. Lyanna jousts for Howland—Rhaegar does it for Lyanna. Ostensibly the latter are chivalrous acts (defending the weak/honoring the maiden) but because they're not performed within the usual paradigm as expected these actions are a) reviled and b) reveal what truly motivates the two: Compassion. Justice.

I am also partial to the complication of returns/how leaving a place that is no longer safe is a love story/the moments that beg you to run headlong into them and you, human as can be, make that choice. All of these are part of Rhaelya's story. It's true that Lyanna left her family who she loved. People will say ah she was young, she was stupid, she was blinded by Rhaegar's charisma; but again, this is a moment about clarity. About certainty. Justice is about what happens in the future. Lyanna ran to the future & left behind only those whose love mattered less than their ability to possess her.

Rhaegar I have recently longposted about so it's clear how I formulate him. On the Lyanna part I've definitely said this but basically once the war kicked off there was no way for him to transport Lyanna anywhere without further endangering her and/or him family with Elia—you need to understand that Rhaegar loved his children to understand him at all. That he loved his mother, his father, had seen them broken down & turn apathetic or even cruel towards the world. You need to understand that Lyanna represented a shining light of hope against this backdrop for him. I am also one of the people who believe that Rhaegar & Lyanna's sexual relationship only started after Brandon/Rickard were executed so clearly this is a complex but also painfully simple story about the human heart for me. I love people at their most human. Affirming people's dignity during suffering or crisis is an ethical duty I feel I have towards others. And GRRM did exactly that for Rhaegar and Lyanna, so how can I not love them? I'd ship Rhaelya if I was born in a small Bavarian village in 1753, etc etc.

As for the fic I'd love to write, there are two:

1—

Rhaegar riding through the Riverlands on his way to the Ghost of High Heart. He's with Myles Mooton, Arthur Dayne, Richard Lonmouth, Oswell Whent. They stop at the Inn at the Crossroads. Everyone's laughing and drinking, Myles is flirting with the one pretty barmaid while Rhaegar is ContemplatingTM—Bess is her name. Bess boasts about all the ladies and lordlings who stopped at their inn recently & gives a description of what sounds like Brandon and Lyanna Stark. They enjoy riding out on their lil horses. But, Bess says, the Northern lord didn't like the look of our little lordling so they didn't stay long & haven't been bacj. The girl was kind though! She gave a few coins for the boy after slipping away from her wroth brother. Suddenly, Rhaegar's tuned in and the little lordling is trotted out...

A toddler with black hair and blue eyes. Soon after, the plans change.

2—

Their first meeting including Rhaegar nerding out a bit over meeting a crannogman after Howland uses lite magic to try and help them escape. Benjen & Howland trying to take responsibility for being the KOTLT and failing. Lyanna not just a winter maiden but a stubborn Northern bitch hardened by winter (it's the iron underneath baby!!). Sussing each other out during a long silent stare down. Maybe somebody even cracks a Joke? That kind of thing.

OK long answer 💀 sorry but I can't help myself!

[martellspear]

─── ELIA WEEK - DAY O3

ੈ✩‧₊˚ Elia & her nieces. I love how Doran and Oberyn passed down their love for Elia to their children. They want justice for their aunt and little cousins as much as they want it for Oberyn. Do not think about how Obara knew Elia the longest and how she was just a child when she arrived at Sunspear, full of the desire to prove herself strong. I believe Elia was a sort of safe space where Obara could be her own age and play and I know Elia welcomed her niece with open arms and loved her very much.

[carmelide]

no because i always drag oberyn for getting too 'cocky' in his duel with the mountain, right, but everytime i think about what the lannisters did to elia and her children i literally seethe with rage. i honestly would have been worse than oberyn. imagine holding that anger within you for over a decade; imagine having to live with the knowledge that your sister, her children and your uncle are all dead and that they received no justice. imagine just having to go on with your life with this insurmountable grief and rage in a world where no one else seems to care. in truth? i'm suprised oberyn only killed the mountain and didn't try to gut tywin on sight.

[fromtheboundlesssea]

How do you write A33ault and r@p3 in your AUs without it falling into the gratuitous grounds?? I really love Asoiaf but since it was written by a man a lot of the violence inflicted on women and children feels “off”. These instances of violence serve men and are upheld by the narrative constantly. Ex: Elia Martell’s death benefits Robert and even when her brother tries to bring her justice he dies and it bolsters Tyrion’s arc. Even violence we can’t see on page still receives the same treatment. Rhaenyra being groomed serves Daemon in his quest for power.

I want to write a non-consensual scene in my AU but I’m worried that my internal bias as will make it gratuitous. Any tips?

I usually focus more on the feeling rather than the physical actions that are taking place. While the non-consensual things are happening physically, those wounds will heal to a degree, but the scars on the mind will be what remains.

Focus on what the character is thinking and feeling, your readers will able to fill in the information necessary to understand that something non-consensual is happening. You can also skip the scene entirely and focus on the aftermath, that is equally wise, especially when you are not sure how to write it.

It also depends on the age of the character. They might not have the language to explain what is going on. In Into the Storm, Celia had become non-verbal and the fact that she was non-verbal and what little she could get across was concerning, led to the adults in her life thinking more horrible things had happened to her. In Neither Gods Nor Men, the focus of what Daemon did was on how Aemma felt, uncertain, uncomfortable and terrified.

Martin focuses a LOT on the physical act without properly addressing what the emotional and mental languish that comes out of these actions might be. Focus on the emotions and focus on the aftermath rather than the scene itself. That is what will land the punch.

[goodqueenaly]

do you think tywin ordered gregor to rape elia, or did he "just" order gregor to murder her brutually?

Does it matter?

Is Tywin absolved of guilt for Elia's death (and the horrific manner of it) if he did not literally say the words "ok Gregor, now when you get inside the Red Keep I want you to make sure you brutally rape Princess Elia before you murder her"? Does Tywin get to shift the blame entirely to Gregor, as he asserts to Tyrion, for the rape and murder of Elia, because, he, Tywin, "did not tell him to spare her"?

Whatever Tywin told Gregor with respect to Elia (and I tend to doubt Tywin's insistence that he did not personally want to take vengeance on Elia, given how petty and thin-skinned Tywin always was), Tywin undoubtedly sent a brutal, sadistic young knight (along with Amory Lorch, another brutal knight) to murder an infant in the care of that baby's own mother. Tywin picked Gregor Clegane specifically and gave at least that specific order. This was not a situation like, say, the northmen who murdered the tavern women along the Red Fork, where an independent loyalist band for a certain faction took it upon itself to commit horrific crimes against the (perceived) enemies of its faction (though even there, I think, the story very much wants readers to consider how those actions reflect on the nobility of Robb's faction); this was Tywin giving an order to a hand-picked soldier - a man who was "huge and terrible in battle" - to terrorize noncombatants and murder an infant. The blood was on Tywin's hands for Elia's death and the circumstances of it, just as much as it was on Gregor's (and just as it was on Amory Lorch's for the murder of Rhaenys).

This is a point that the story underlines again and again - Tywin cannot escape blame for his crimes simply because he raised his hands and said "well, I didn't swing the sword, I didn't say 'do xyz'". Think about his attempts to outsource his terror program in the Riverlands initially to Gregor Clegane, a clumsy ruse that Ned saw right through back in AGOT. Think about Tywin's facially hypocritical declaration to the small council in ASOS that he would give Prince Doran Martell "the justice Robert denied him for the murder of his sister Elia and her children", a ridiculous promise that Tyrion gleefully (if silently) mocked. Think about Tywin's flimsy excuse when Tyrion points out the breach of guest right at the Red Wedding - "The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, not mine" - and his distaste at Tyrion referring to his, Tywin's, "plotting" with Walder Frey for the massacre - a recognition that he, Tywin, was no better than Walder in breaching arguably the most fundamental Westerosi socio-political tradition to murder Robb Stark and his men. The horrific rape and murder of Elia Martell is no different: Tywin not only specifically empowered two bloodthirsty, terrible men to carry out the murders of innocent children with the full knowledge that their mother was living with them (and so every reason to expect her to fight for their survival), but chucked the dead Amory Lorch's body under the bus to explain Elia's murder explicitly so that his favorite attack dog Gregor could live to terrorize another day. What Gregor did, in Tywin's name and with at least some direction from Tywin, falls on Tywin too.