#making a sympathetic villain

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

We could have had it all...

[First] Prev <–-> Next

[rjshepherd]

I think y'all are sleeping on this.

"you seek gortash? His soul is already suffering at my hands. This is the fate of all those who fail me"

If you use speak with the dead in gortash after you kill him, he's not there, he's already been taken by Bane to be tortured forever. I won't spoil what Bane says after this but can we all agree how fucked up it is that Tav is ringing gortash' spirit phone and Bane picks up like "yeah he's busy being in agony, can I take a message?" And then presumably goes back to torturing him for all eternity and NO ONE says anything???

I'm gonna try it on orin too, presumably she's suffering something similar. They both needed to die but I don't think forever torture is an appropriate punishment for both of them. Orin is definitely worse than gortash, both in terms of danger level and sheer body count.

[lord-squiggletits]

I think the key component to my personal reading of post-Delphi Pharma is that he's trying to be a horrible person on purpose. Not "on purpose" in the way that people have free will to exercise their own choices, but in that Pharma's "mad doctor" persona is a performance he puts on to deliberately embrace how much everyone else hates him. Basically, if people already think you're a "bad Autobot" and a horrible doctor who just kills his patients for fun, why try to prove otherwise to people who have already made up their minds about you? Just fully embrace the fact that people see you as an asshole. Don't try to change their minds. Don't plead for their forgiveness or understanding. Just stop caring. If you're going to be remembered as a monster, you might as well be a memorable monster, and eke as much pleasure and hedonism as you can out of it before karma catches up to you and you inevitably crash and burn.

I mean, I guess you could just go the route of "Oh, Pharma was always a fucked up creepy guy and Delphi was just him taking the mask off," but I really don't like that interpretation because, for one, it feels really wrong to take a character like Pharma becoming evil under duress and going, "Oh well clearly he did the things he did because he was evil all along," as if somehow Pharma breaking under blackmail/torture/threat of horrible death was a sign of him having poor moral character. As opposed to, you know, suffering under the very real threat of horrible death for himself and everyone he cares about while being manipulated by a guy who specializes in psychological torture.

The second reason is that it just doesn't make sense to write Pharma as having been evil all along. I mean...

Occam's Razor says that the best argument is the one with the simplest explanation. Doesn't it make way more sense to take Pharma's appearances in flashbacks, his friendship with Ratchet, his stunning medical accomplishments, and the few we see of him speaking kindly/sympathetically (or in the least charitable interpretation, at least professionally) towards his patients and conclude "This guy was just a normal person, if exceptionally talented." Taking all of these flashback appearances at face value and assuming Pharma was being genuine/honest is a way simpler and more logical explanation than trying to argue that Pharma for the past 4 million years was just faking being a good doctor/person. I mean, it's possible within the realm of headcanon, but the fact is Pharma's appearances in the story are so brief that there simply wasn't room in the story for there to be some sort of secret conspiracy/hidden manipulation behind why Pharma acted the way he did in the past.

I just can't help but look at things like Pharma's friendship with Ratchet (himself a good person and usually a fine judge of character) and the fact that even post-Delphi, pretty much every single mention of Pharma comes with some mention of "He was a good doctor for most of his life" or "He was making major headways in research [before he started killing patients]" which implies that even the Autobots themselves see Pharma's villainy as a recent turn in his life compared to how for "most of his life" he "used to be" a good doctor.

And although Pharma doesn't know this, we as the readers (and even other characters like Rung) know about Aequitas technology and the fact that it actually works, so... if Pharma really was an unrepentant murderer, why couldn't he get through the forcefield too? The Aequitas forcefield doesn't require that a person be completely morally pure and free of wrongdoing or else how could Tyrest get through, just that they feel a sense of inner peace and lack feelings of guilt. Pharma has murdered and tortured people by this point, and put on quite a campy and theatrical show of how much he sees it as a fun game, so why then can he not get through?

It circles back to my headcanon at the start of this post that the "mad doctor" persona is just that-- a persona. Delphi/post-Delphi Pharma's laughing madman personality is just so far removed from every flashback we saw of him and everything we can infer based on how other people see/saw him before that, to me, the mad doctor act is (at least in large part, if not fully) a persona that Pharma puts on to put his villainy in the forefront.

To avoid an overly simplistic/ableist take, I don't think Tarn tortured Pharma into turning crazy. To me, it's more like the constant pressure of death by horrific torture, the feeling of martyrdom as Pharma kept secret that he was the only one standing between Delphi and annihilation, the physical isolation of Messatine as well as the emotional separation from Ratchet, being forced to violate his medical oaths (pretty much the only thing Pharma's entire life has been about), etc. All of that combined traumatized Pharma to the point that the only way he could avoid cracking was to just stop caring about all of it. Because at least then, even if he's still murdering patients to save Delphi from a group of sadistic freaks, Pharma doesn't have to feel guilty and sick about doing it. As opposed to the alternatives, which were probably either going off the deep end and killing himself to escape, or confessing to what he did and getting jailed for it.

In that light, Pharma becoming a mad doctor makes sense. It avoids the bad writing tropes of "oh this character who was good his entire life was actually just evil and really good at hiding it" as well as "oh he got tortured and went crazy that's why he's so random and silly and killing people, he's crazy" and instead frames Pharma's evil as something he was forced into, to the point where in order to avoid a full psychological breakdown and keep defending Delphi, he just had to stop caring about the sanctity of life or about what other people might think of him.

Then, of course, the actual Delphi episode happens, and Pharma's own lifelong best friend Ratchet basically spits in his face and sees him as nothing more than a crazy murderer who went rogue from being a good Autobot. Then Pharma gets his hands cut off and left to die on Messatine. At that point, Pharma has not only been mentally/emotionally broken into losing his feelings of compassion, he's received the message loud and clear: He is alone. Everyone hates him. Not even his own best friend likes him any more. No one even cared enough about him to check if he actually died or not. He will only ever be remembered as a doctor who went insane and killed his patients.

So in the light of 1. Having all of your redeeming qualities be squeezed out of you one by one for the sake of survival and 2. Having your reputation and all of your positive relationships be destroyed and 3. People only know/care about you as "that doctor who became evil and killed his patients" rather than the millions of years of good service that came before.

What else is there to do but internalize the fact that you'll forever be seen as a monster and a freak, and embrace it? People already see you as a murderer for that blackmail deal you did, so why not become an actual murderer and just start killing people on a whim? People already see you as an irredeemable monster who puts a stain on the Autobot name, so why beg for their forgiveness when you could just shun them back? You've already become a murderer, a traitor, and a horrible doctor, so what's a few more evil acts added to the pile? It's not like anyone will ever forgive you or love you ever again.

Why care? Why try to hold on to your principles of compassion, kindness, medical ethics, when an entire lifetime of being a good person did nothing to save you from blackmail and then abandonment? Why put yourself through the emotional agony of feeling lonely, guilty, miserable, when you could just... stop caring, and not hurt any more?

[ministarfruit]

day 9: it's time for crime ♡

(prompt list for femslashfeb)

[im-not-buying-it-ether]

Oh hey what about a groundhogs day event where the hero has to relive their traumatic “One Bad Day”-esque backstory but it’s another hero they either know really well and the only way to break the loop is letting that horrible event happen

Bc I’m basic my first thought was “Oh, this would absolutely tear up anyone having to walk down crime alley knowing way too well what’s about to happen”

But I’m also obsessed with my blorbo so my other thought was “Omg lol, imagine if one of the adult heroes ended up in Billy’s body just before his parents left to go die on their dig and think maybe they can save their co-worker the tragedy he faced so young only for every attempt they succeed at getting them to stay keep the loop going and they realize they have to let them go and doom this kid all over again. Haha, extra points if the loop actually lasts from that point to them actually dying so they wake up the next day thinking they failed again only for it to be tomorrow and suddenly Uncle E gets the call that his brother and sister in law are dead and then whoever is in Billy’s body is getting thrown out with a suitcase realizing maybe the nightmare is going to last longer.”

And I just had to laugh bc goddamn my brain cant stop with angst

[puppetmaster13u]

Prompt 82

Lex Luthor is admittedly, a very petty man. A very petty man who absolutely despises a certain kryptonian. So what if he made a clone- the alien got mind controlled practically every other week, could anyone blame him for being concerned?!

He’s more than a little annoyed that said clone was stolen from Cadmus, even though they had assured him repeatedly that they knew what they were doing. Trying to steal Gotham’s cryptid’s child was not a good idea- even he knew that! So of course they take the clone and the kryptonian discovers said clone and… rejects it. Huh. He should probably take advantage of that. 

But he is a petty man. 

If the alien is going to reject the child then he’ll just have to prove to be the better father. He’ll of course be the best father, if only to shove it in the other’s face. Really, how hard could it be?

[caeslxys]

here's the thing. laudna would have stopped it. if she knew delilah was about to fracture the gnarlrock. if she could parse her own feelings from hers.

and here's the thing. imogen has been plagued by nightmares for a decade. and this rock is the first bit of solace outside of her trust in laudna that she has ever had.

and laudna was just involved in shattering it. this tiny bit of solace.

and. here's the thing: laudna would've stopped it.

and. here's the thing. imogen would've stopped it. the only reason imogen didn't go is because she was specifically afraid that she would attempt to intervene and ruin their relationship with the volition before it ever began.

and here's the thing. liliana set out 25+ years ago specifically to spare her daughter. and that seemingly has not ever wavered as her core motivation. but people keep being drawn to the moon. kids keep being drawn towards the moon. and liliana is a mother. she was a mother before she ever knew she was an exaltant.

for 25+ years she has worked to "cure" imogen. the only solace she probably ever received was in at least attempting to console the kids who found themselves lured in by her same pull.

liliana begs imogen not say that they may have to kill each other. she breaks at hearing imogen's resolve. but there's kids, imogen. there's kids here. imogen. she can't leave. she's a mom.

and, here's the thing: imogen's her daughter. the daughter liliana left. or tried to leave. the daughter she only had through dreams. and imogen is working with the volition. and imogen has been her sole drive for 25+ years.

and imogen might have just been involved in shattering the little solace she might have ever had.

and, here's the thing: imogen would've stopped them.

[daemon-in-my-head]

As much as some of the stuff in Realms lore is messed up or has some very clear very outdated views on shit, the way they wrote evil cults and their motivations is actually pretty nice nd I'll give em that.

Like we've got Shar, lady of loss, who appeals to all those people who experienced something unimaginable and want to forget that experience.

Bane, a self made guy, who appeals to all those who came to resent the status quo nd were made to feel powerless, who's cult establishes the idea that everyone can become the game master and rise as long as they're dedicated enough but also gives excuses to the already powerful for abusing their power.

Myrkul who appeals to people in a similar way Shar does, but he has and grants the ability to reverse the loss. Reunite with those you lost before you arrive in the afterlife yourself. Don't fear death because your life will continue the same way it was before even if you die. Basically my guy offers a solution to the whole being afraid of death bit

But the most fucked up one is arguably Bhaal, who targets a very spefic group of people that deem life to be hopeless and death to be the better choice, and introduces them to the idea that this warped mindset is a fact and by killing someone you show them mercy and you can become their hero.

Like these are definitely not the healthiest claims those cults make, and any 'normal' individual would look at u like u have issues if you presented these ideas to them. Still, for a (not very) small group of people, these thoughts validate them in their feelings and struggles and offer a twisted understanding. And that is why recruitment works, and these definitely not-so-nice cults manage to survive and thrive at times. Because they very purposefully target individuals that could be easily manipulated if offered nothing more than some sort of understanding or recognition, and then they built on that. Very much like real life cults did and do in order to establish themselves and gain following.

Like very much fucked up but I can see very well why these cults work, why people join them and how they manage to manipulate their followers into blind loyalty and going above and beyond. The gods they serve and their lil libraries nd stuff may be dorky at times but the cults themselves are nothing besides absolutely terrifying. 11/10 no notes.

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

not spop-related but i can't post this on my main blog so.

i do find it funny how most of the fan depictions of belos were far more interesting and detailed than s3 belos. i've seen fanart and fanfics of him where he's a complex villain struggling with religious guilt and then the canon is just like.. lmao yeah he's pure evil. kill him.

[omgcheez]

These come out like two weeks apart. Late Nov/ Early Dec is going to be the Autumn of Green origin stories

[sagesariadnd]

"If you ship this toxic ship there's something wrong with you." "If you like this character you're stanning war crimes." THEY'RE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS. FIC. TION. AL. CHARACTERS.

Fiction is entertaining because it's FICTION. NOT. REAL. I don't see anyone lining up to cancel Bugs Bunny when he shoves dynamite in Elmer Fudd's gun. Because you know he's fictional.

You KNOW the difference between fictional and real. I know you do. I promise you do. Please leave people alone.

[antianakin]

I think part of the reason I have a hard time considering any of the characters in Star Wars "antiheroes" is because I think the real message of Star Wars sort-of goes against the entire CONCEPT of an "antihero." An antihero is generally defined as someone who does "the wrong thing for the right reasons." Or, in other words, someone with heroic and noble intentions but who perhaps uses less noble and heroic methods in order to achieve that ultimate end goal. And while there are absolutely characters in Star Wars who fit that description, the message of the story tells us that there isn't really any such thing as doing "the wrong thing for the right reasons." If you're doing the wrong thing, there is no right reason. There are ONLY wrong reasons for doing the wrong thing.

For example, you could argue that Anakin is an "antihero" because he commits a genocide and throws a galaxy into tyranny and fascism, but he does it to "save Padme from dying." Saving Padme sounds like such a good, heroic goal, even if his methods are obviously horrific and evil. But the message of that whole story is that Anakin isn't really doing this to save Padme. He's doing it to keep himself from having to live with the pain of losing her. He's doing it because he can't accept change. He's doing it because his own fear of that pain is more important to him than anything else, including the lives of innocent children or the wellbeing of an entire galaxy. He's not an antihero according to Star Wars's own messaging, he's just a villain. The moment he decides to murder a bunch of innocent people for his own selfish desires, he chooses to become a villain. There's no middle ground where his slightly sympathetic reasoning puts him into the "antihero" category. He's JUST a villain. Immediately and completely. None of his reasons are right, they're just selfish.

There is no "heroic intention" that outweighs the less than heroic means in Star Wars. There just isn't, because the heroic intention doesn't actually exist. So while many of the characters fall under the traditional definition of an antihero, the actual message of the story (at least if it's written by Lucas or someone who actually cares about his story) doesn't support the idea of an antihero at all.

[mfdragon]

Hey there

Thoughts on ‘A Glitch in Time’ and if it’s canonicity will affect the Good Vlad AU?

If you’ve addressed this before, I’m sorry, but I didn’t see anything, and I’m kinda intrigued on how that dynamic would work

I have answered this kinda but I can go into more detail now since some time has passed.

I loved Glitch in Time! It was FUN; it was CREATIVE; and I loved just seeing all the characters again having an adventure together. I enjoyed the lore exploration, the extra nuance they gave Dan and the veeeery interesting future plot potential with him and Vlad 👀

It made me real happy (and sad as well) to see how happy Jack was to see Vlad again, despite everything. And yea speaking of Vlad oh ma lawd I NEVER THOUGHT ID GET TO SEE HIM FINALLY OPEN UP ABOUT HIS TRUE FEELINGS!! Happy also to see Danny was weary and didn’t trust him completely but still the ending was interesting, held a lot of potential and everyone is in a good place.

Now as for my own story; it’s interesting that the comic revealed that Vlad’s obsession was fueled by fear. I thought that was very interesting and it does make sense, since being abandoned and left in pain is probably his biggest trauma. However, I always liked and suspected his obsession was more linked with anger, since it’s connected to revenge and being blinded by rage. And that’s mostly what I’m going to be focusing on in my au. I don’t know if I’d be adding Dan or Danni into my story, especially since my au takes place after TUE but before Secret Weapons. (Mostly because the cloning thing for me was like, ah hell I can’t redeem this guy once he gets to THIS point like damn son. And attempted Jazz-icide as well; can’t forgive him for that at all :/)

Sorry for the ramble and I hope some of that made sense ✨

[justafriendofxanders]

i try not to be a dick and i understand this article writer probably got paid peanuts to churn out an article for the content mill so i'm not going after them in particular. this is just me venting about meaningless shit

the idea that btvs characters need to be made more "relatable" by turning them into unfortunate victims rather than people culpable for their own misery feels so antithetical to everything about the show. what's "relatable" and interesting about original xander is not his 90s Nice Guy Syndrome it's the conflict between wanting to be liked and being really fucking annoying. it's that he wants nothing more than a handbook on how to be "cool," but if you gave him one, he'd throw it out the window and continue to be judgmental because he can't shut the fuck up. he can be manipulative and cowardly but he can also be brave and loyal. his mouth gets him into a boatload of trouble and causes pain and heartbreak and also it saves the world and his best friend. like i get that the nice guy entitlement is annoying, but turning him into a passive doormat is just. not the same character.

[akkivee]

the mood is still like this pic of reol, femme fatale’s writer, in between the chuuoku seiyuu btw lmao

[symphonyofsilence]

does Jin Guangyao play a villainous role in Wei WuXian’s story? yes. but is he also the Narrative’s special boy? also, yes.

I don’t remember the post, but the fact that Wei Wuxian, and by extinction, the narrative sympathizes with Jin Guangyao has already been brought up. He draws a comparison between himself and JGY when the crowd suddenly turns against JGY in Lotus Pier and wants WWX to deal with him, and again when the other Sect Leaders led by Sect leader Yao assume that the Guanyin statue is made to resemble JGY himself ‘cause he’s a narcissist, and when people are saying nasty things about JGY in a tavern after his death.

but another way in which the narrative sympathizes with JGY is that every time JGY is shown doing a shitty thing, it’s immediately followed by him being shown in a situation in which he is a victim, or has done something good.

he paralyzes Qin Su after she finds out some horrible truths about him and hides her in the creepy room where WWX finds JGY’s sworn brother’s head? A chapter or an episode after that we see him being trash-talked and cast out by other Nie soldiers when they’re drinking the water he brought, while he’s doing thrice the work they’re doing. we see him cleaning the battlefields and helping the commoners after battles, we see him voluntarily do the work of the servants as a deputy general when they lack staff, and pour people tea, while they rudely clean their cups when they take it from his hands (which NMJ does nothing about), we see him loyally arguing with LXC that he can't leave NMJ for his father’s sect after all NMJ has done for him, and learn that he has saved LXC. CQL shows him in his Meng Yao Era more. We see him repeatedly receive scorn when all he gives others is curtsey and smiles, we see beforehand the Nie Captain be an absolute bitch to him so I'm sure nobody in the audience regretted his loss, but even then we immediately get that jumping in front of NMJ and taking a stab to the chest to save him, and the teary banishment scene that cancels the "guy is now officially a scheming murderer" out.

He's being a bitch to NMJ in the Nightless City? He kills Wen Ruohan & turns out that he has been bravely spying for the Sunshot campaign all this time and they owe him their victory. But even then, he apologizes to NMJ, kneels down, and surrenders himself.

He's protecting Xue Yang? You have him explaining to NMJ why he can't go against his father's wishes, and how he's scared of everything and everyone because he was never given the luxury of safety, status & power, so he can practice that power freely. In the end, NMJ offends his mother and kicks him down the stairs (which he's well aware is a trauma for JGY). Which honor-bound ancient man wouldn't have killed the man who disrespected his mother and kicked him down the stairs? What would have NMJ done had this been done to him? But even then, in the book, the narrative does even more to make JGY sympathetic, LXC comes to NMJ to calm him down, and he says that JGY's in a difficult situation right now. His stepmother beats him & his father doesn't listen to anything he says anymore. Otherwise, he wouldn't have talked back to NMJ. & after that, NMJ's qi deviation happens when he drops eaves on this conversation between LXC & JGY:

I mean if you've tried to murder him thrice, shoved him down the stairs, & called him a whoreson, taken any opportunity to scold him, & you don't like it when he talks back to you, at least let him talk behind your back. He's not even lying or being disrespectful or anything.

He retaliates against WWX & LWJ’s attack by showing WWX as a villain and the way he has killed NMJ comes to light? a few chapters later WWX is surprised that JGY hasn’t visited LXC to demand a search but to tell him that he has prevented everyone from searching the CR and thinks it’s best if LXC, whenever it’s convenient for him opens the doors of the CR so JGY can get this search over with and shut the other sects up. And reassures him that he won’t let LWJ’s reputation be tarnished in any way. (At the stairs of Jinlintai, JGY knew fully well that LWJ was doing what he was doing because he was in love with WWX, as we learn at the Guanyin temple, but he loudly suggested that LWJ is being deceived in front of the crowd to save LXC's brother reputation.) The Donghua even has a wartime flashback from a young Meng Yao saving LXC, feeding him, hiding him, washing his clothes, getting beaten up by the Wen soldiers to keep LXC safe, and even then bringing back food for him with a smile.

He takes everyone hostage, twice (his hostages are children the first time) and is at the peak of his villain moment? You have the whole Guanyin temple thing happening. (which, personally for me, was what really elevated him from an interesting character to my poor little mew mew in my eyes.)

When JGY kneels down, WWX feels uncomfortable. He feels embarrassed on his behalf:

the same effect of inducing pity & sympathy for him is achieved in the show by somber music swelling in this scene, reaction shots, slow-mo, and a wide-shot of everyone in the temple as JGY kneels down to make him look especially small, while almost 2/3 of the shot is of the candles of the Guyanin temple. in the exposition scene when LXC kneels down to hear JGY out, the statue of Guanyin is between them. THE LOCATION OF ALL OF JGY TRAGIC EXPOSITIONS IS A GYANYIN TEMPLE! The temple of the bodhisattva of mercy who is considered to be the physical embodiment of compassion!

And the sympathetic reaction shots when he talks about JGS continue throughout the scene.

then we learn that he had to marry Qin Su because she was already pregnant and he didn’t want QS & JRS to have his and his mother’s fate and that the reason they had to rush things through like this and conceive a child was that JGS might have further caused problems for their marriage because he really disliked his son. and that if a political fall-out happened between Jin & the Qin clan, JGY would get the burn of it. (still a shitty act, but you can’t help but understand where he’s coming from & pity him), he goes on about his father kicking him down the stairs of Jinlintai on his birthday while celebrating JZX’s birthday, we learn about his childhood in the brothel, about JGS saying that he could save Meng Shi but he didn’t ‘cause she would be too much trouble, and that their son wasn’t worth mentioning, we see JGY & SMS deep connection, the show gives us some very good Xiao Shushu & A-Ling moments, & even though it’s been always clear & is especially clear during the whole Guanyin temple scene, we see truly see the depth of love, respect, and loyalty JGY has toward LXC. 

We see him in the Villainous Friends chapter telling Xue Yang that he can vandalize people's shops and restaurants for no reason, only under the condition that he doesn't wear the Jin uniform. But it's immediately followed by the mention of the bruise on his head given to him by his stepmother because she can't vent her anger on her cheating husband, who JGY has to retrieve from brothels every night to ensure his safe stay in Jinlintai for another day. We see him massacre the He sect, and right after that, he goes to retrieve his father from the brothel and hears those awful things and you can't help but sympathize with him.

Because what is really important is that you understand Jin Guangyao. There are about 14 chapters in the book and 4 episodes in the show of JGY explaining himself while crying on the floor because it's less about "Jiggy eVIL" & more about look what the society who turned his back on him & his mother when they needed their help, and sneered at them when they tried to improve their situation, and never forgave JGY for being born has done to this man to make him do such horrendous deeds. (And his sword's name is Hensheng. Meaning "hate to be born". They made him never forgive himself for being born either.)

So by saying that X & Y has happened to JGY, and so what he does is for self-preservation, nobody's JUSTIFYING his genocides, & nobody's denying that JGY had a choice in everything he did. Even if his other option was to accept his place, sit down, shut up, and suffer in silence, NOT murdering a whole sect that includes children by doing experiments on them is the better option. The point is that it's not the point. JGY's atrocities are only means in the story to tell the cautionary tale of a classist, cruel society. The things that JGY has gone through cannot be erased from the conversations because "JGY EvIl. Periodt." The Narrative doesn't want the reader to do that! It's specifically structured to put the reason JGY's got to this point on the forefront every time he does a crime. The fight with NMJ's fierce corpse ends as quickly as it begins. The Climax of the story is mostly JGY's monologues. 14 chapters of monologues cannot be dismissed as JGY gaslighting LXC & shedding crocodile tears.

in a story that has Wei WuXian as a protagonist, and literally starts with the monster the society has made of him through rumors and has this theme going on through the rest of the story, especially with JC, and baseless accusations are the first thing that happens when JGY's secrets are out in the Lotus Pier, and then ends with society making a monster out of JGY after his death through rumors when Sect Leader Yao speculates that the statue's face is modeled after JGY himself (which WWX especially comments on), and in the tavern when people made such crude remarks that even those who were participating in the conversation felt uncomfortable, I think it's clear what and who the real villain is.

MXTX could have written people talking about literally any real atrocity that JGY has done, but instead, they talk about what he hasn’t done and read the worst out of his every action in life.

And actually, with everything that JGY has been through, he’s not even the worst case that could come out of his situation. He did have good intentions. For all his genocides, unlike Xue Yang, he didn't actually want to see the world burn. He did help the innocent common folk. He helped them during the sunshot campaign, and with the watchtowers, he fought against systematic corruption, and he treated everyone with respect. He rescued LXC and QS. We don’t know how many others he has personally saved. It's that the means he had to use to have the power to help the poor was incredibly dirty because he was playing an unfair game that was especially designed against him. (I'm not saying helping the poor was his only objective when he tried to gain his father's approval and a secure place in Jinlintai for himself. Though it's sad that he had to fight for these things at all.) The best he could honorably do was be NMJ's deputy general, which didn't save him from being bullied and people cleaning the cups they took from his hands. He knew that if he tried to help the innocent without having the political power to do that, he would end up like WWX. But what he didn’t know was that he would end up like that if he, unlike WWX, played by the rules of the game and compromised his morals anyway. There was no winning for people like them.

Dismissing the good that JGY has done, the real desire he had for helping the poor, and what he’s been through cheapens the character, cheapening JGY’s character to a one-dimensional Marvel villain, and dismissing the commentary that he represents on society as a whole is a disservice to the story. And that’s a crime cause the story is great. 

his fall from grace, the heinous acts he had to commit to find himself the slightest bits of safety, security, and respect wouldn’t be that much of a tragedy if he didn’t want to be good and do good for people.

Then there is JGY's death and the framing of it. Here is a wonderful analysis by @sapphicdalliances of why his death wasn't justice and that was the point, how he died because of an act he didn't commit, and here are great analysis by @thatswhatsushesaid & @crithir about how his death is described as a gut-wrenching horrible scene framed through his horrified nephew & ward's eyes, both in the book and in the show, how it didn't bring the Nie brothers any closure either, and how through the lenses of LXC and JL, and by JC’s & WWX’s reaction we see his death as a tragedy.

His death is because of a dishonorable trick. His last act in life, pushing LXC away is an act of love and of forgiveness. In the CQL before that, he pushes Jin Ling out of danger, too.

As said in the aforementioned posts, after it, we don't see a victorious Nie Huaisang or Wei WuXian. In fact, neither of them is victorious.

WWX, and by extension, the narrative blames NHS for his scheming & risking innocent lives. WWX is especially appalled by NHS' treatment of Meng Shi's body. He points out that JGY, being a big liar with a considerable criminal record, will be forever accused of lying, no matter what. While he immediately after brings JGY's last genuine act toward LXC as proof that JGY couldn't have been lying.

In the CQL, he straight-up calls NHS the devil with the coldest tone he's ever had towards NHS.

NHS for his part doesn't seem victorious either.

Dare I say he even looks like despite years of scheming he was not ready for it when JGY pushes Shuoyue deeper inside his own chest. (Who would he be acting for at that moment? Nobody's looking at him. And he’s sweating!)

And I think there's a "no, he didn't" in his last "I don't know." To LXC (at least in the show) when he's insistently asked whether JGY was going to attack LXC or not and he insistently answers "I don't know". It's a confirmation without confirmation.

And then in, IMHO, one of the most beautiful and nuanced scenes, NHS finds A-Yao's hat, in the book, he bends down, picks it up, and quietly goes away (and that's the last we see of Nie Huaisang), in the show he wipes off the dust on it, and his hand finally gets bloodied, literally & metaphorically despite trying his best to not do his dirty work himself. And we get a flashback of A-Yao's childhood that I always assumed we're seeing through NHS because maybe JGY had told him that story. Not only does the order of the scene, combined with NHS' deep in thought look seem like it but also NHS cleans JGY's hat when in that memory A-Yao's mom tells him that he needs to take good care of his hat.

And that scene is especially beautiful because the show went out of its way to show their close relationship pre-time skip. And we see NHS keep A-Yao's principal by cleaning his hat when JGY himself is too dead to do that. Even when the reason for his death is NHS himself. And by NHS getting his hands bloodied while cleaning the hat, and staring at it with a deep, nuanced look, that combination of care & hatred is shown in that scene.

I think he feels empty. He's spent years after years planning this thing. It was his only drive. Now it's over. And it wasn't a grand, victorious moment. It just...happened. and it was something that needed to happen, in his eyes.

And he did love his san-ge for a long, long time before the betrayal came to light for him. And then he hated him for a long, long time. But at that moment with JGY's bloodied hat in his hand? I think that's the moment when love and hatred have both run their passionate course and they've finally reached each other in the middle and collided and ran out of strength and intensity and separate, clear meaning and they just take their exhausted leave together, leaving only a trace behind.

And most prominently we see a devastated LXC and JL. We see Jin Ling's flashback of when his Xiao Shushu gave him his spiritual puppy. We see him being the only one who could cheer JL up when he was down for days.

We see JL choosing to keep loving him despite everything.

His loss is felt and the memory of his good deeds keeps coming back in JL's narrative:

The Narrative doesn't just sympathize with him. The Narrative mourns him.