#mdzs name meta

[lgbtlunaverse]

What kind of saber is baxia anyway?

I love my bloodthirsty princess of a cursed blade, and in my heart of hearts i am nothing but a sword nerd, so i've been extremely fascinated by Baxia and how we know frustratingly little about what she actually looks like!

I mean, look at bichen, right?

Bichen in the donghua:

Bichen in the drama:

They're clearly not exactly the same. The scabbards are different, and the guards have a different shape. But these are recognizably different iterations on one theme, right? Thin jian with a white grip silver guard, light blue tassel and silver mounting accents on the scabbard.

Now this is baxia in the donghua:

And baxia in the drama:

????????

THAT'S A COMPLTELY DIFFERENT WEAPON

it doesn't stop there either, the audio drama is kind enough to give us ANOTHER COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BAXIA

pretty! But how is that he same sword??

And when we go back to the novel, we get very little information on her appearance other than the fact that her blade is tinted red with all the blood she's absorbed. Which none of these designs incorporate.

This is not a dig on the designs itself, they're all quite gorgeous in their own right and i'm going to spend a while discussing all of them! Because isn't it fascinating how, since we know little about novel baxia beyond "saber" all of these designs ended up so different? What kinds of sabers are these, anyway?

So, a chinese aber, aka a "dao" (刀) just means a sword that has only one cutting side. As opposed to a jian, which has two.

You can see how that leaves a LOT of room for variaton.

I've actually seen some people get confused because Huaisang's saber in the untsmed is thin and quite straight, making it superficially resemble the jian more than drama!baxia, but it is still clearly a saber!

See? only one cutting blade!

This, to me looks a lot like a tang dynasty hengdao

credit to this blog for providing his image and being a great source for all this going forward.

TANGENT: during all this I found out the english wikipedia page for dao is WRONG! Ths is what they about the tang hengdao!

So that sounds like the hengdao was called that during the sui dynasty, but then, after that, started being called a peidao, right?

WRONG

I LOOKED AT THE SOURCE THEY USED AND IT SAYS THIS:

IT WAS CALLED THE PEIDOU UNTIL THE SUI DYNASTY, AT WHICH POINT IT WAS CALLED A HENGDAO. Which would carry over to the Tang dynasty. This was the source wikipedia linked! and it says something else than they say it does!

Anyone know how to edit a wikipedia article?

ANYWAY

BACK TO BAXIA

Since we're already at the drama, let's look at drama baxia: She's also straight! the general term for straight-backed saber is Zhibeidao, but that's a modern collector's term, and doesn't really say anything about which historical kind of saber baxia could be based on. Another meta i found on the drama nie sabers already went on some detail here.

I'm gonna expand on that a little: The kinds of historical straight-backed sabers we see resemble the hengdao a lot more than they do baxia. They don't go to their point as harsly as she does (she's basically a cleaver!) and they're all way skinnier.

No, my personal theory is that instead of being based on any kind of historical sword, drama!baxia is based on a Nandao.

I mean, come on, look at it!

Baxia!

The Nandao... isn't actually a historical sword. It was invented for Wushu forms. There's a really fascinating article about its conception, but that's why the swords in the images look a little thin and flimsy. Wushu swords are very flexible and light, they're dance props, not weapons to fight with. There are actual steel versions of Nandao, but they're recreations of the prop, not the other way around.

So That's one way in which Baxia differes from the Nandao: she's actually a real weapon. The other is that, as you can see above, the nandao has an S-shaped guard. Baxia doesn't. She's also much more elaborately decorated, of course. Because she's a princess.

Now: audio drama baxia!

This is much easier. with that flare at the tip?

Oh baby that's a niuweidao, all the way!

There are more sabers with that kind of curved handle, but the broad tip is really charcteristic of the niuweidao. The Niuweidao is also incredibly poplar in modern media, often portrayed as a historical sword, but it originated i nthe 19th century! And it was actually never used by the military!

That's right, the Niuweidao was pretty much exclusively a civilian weapon! That makes its use here anachronistic, but so is the nandao, and considering that the origin story of the Nie is that they use Dao intead of Jian because their ancestors were butchers, portraying them with a weapon historically reserved for rebels and common people instead of the imperial military is actually very on theme!

Finally, Donghua/Manhua baxia. These two designs are so similar I'm going to treat them as one and the same for now.

Unlike both previous baxias, The long handle makes it clear this baxia is a two-handed weapon, though Nie Mingjue is absolutely strong enough to wield her with one hand anyway. Normal rules don't count for cultivators.

Now, this is where things get tricky, because there are a lot of words for long two-handed sabers. And a lot of them are interchangable! This youtube video about the zhanmadao, one of the possible sabers this baxia could be based on, goes a little into just how confusing this can get. This kind of blade WAS actually in military use for many centuries, making it the most historically accurate of all the baxias. But because of that it also has several names and all of those names can also refer to different kinds of blades depending on what century we're in.

So here's our options: i'm going to dismiss the wodao and miandao, because these were explicitly based on japanese sword design, and as we can see manhua baxia has that very broad tip, so that won't work

(Example of a wodao. According to my sources Miaodao is really just the modern common term for the wodao, and the changdao, and certain kinds of zhanmadao... do you see how quickly this gets confusing?)

Next option: Zhanmadao.

Zhanmadao stands for "horse chopping saber" so... yeah they were anti-cavalry weapons. meant to be able to cut the legs and/or necks of horses. That definitely sounds like a weapon Nie Mingjue would wield. But if you watched that youtube video i linked above, you'll know the standardized Qing dinasty Zhanmadao looked very different from earlier versions. It was inspired by the japanese odachi, and more resembles the miandao than its ealrier heftier counteprarts.

Earlier Ming dynasty Zhanmadao on the other hand were... basically polearms. the great ming military blog spot, another wonderful source, says these are essentially a kind of podao/pudao (朴刀) which looked like this

Now that blade looks a lot like baxia, but the handle is honestly too long. Donghua!baxia straddles the line between sword an polearm a little, but while zhanmadao have been used to refer to both long-handled swords and polerarms, this was undeniably a polearm, not a sword.

If you want to know what researching this was like, I found a picture of this blade on pinterest-- labeled as a "two-handed scimitar"-- and the comment section was filled with people arguing about whether this was a Pudao, Wudao, Zhanmadao, Dadao, Guandao, or a japanese Nagita.

So... that's how it was going. This has kept me up until 2 AM multiple times.

However! Thanks to this article on the great ming military blog I found out there have historically been pudao blades with shorter handles!

Specifically, Ming dynasty military writer Cheng Ziyi created a modified version of the pudao to work with the Dan Fao Fa Xuan technixues-- aka technqiues for a two-handed saber, which would alter heavily influence Miaodao swordmanship-- thereby, as the article points out, essentially merging the cleaver-polearm type Zhanmadao with the later two-handed japanese-inspired design.

This is the illustration for the Wu Bei Yao Lue (武備要略) a Ming dynasty military manual

This blade shape in the illustration doesn't match Baxia exactly, but since it's a lengthened Pudao-like blade and we've seen above that those can match Donghua Baxia's shape, i'm gonna say that calling Baxia a Zhanmadao with a two-handed grip isn't all that innacurate!

However, because all of these terms are so intertwined, there are a dozen other things you could call her that would be about equally correct.

To show that, here's a lightning round of other potential Baxia candidates:

Dadao (大刀)

Which are generally one-handed and too short. However!

Another youtube video i found of someone training with a Zhanmadao that resembles baxia a little also calls it a "shuangshoudai dao" (雙手带 刀) shuangshou means two-handed, and while 雙手带 seems to refer to a longer handled weapon, when looking for a shuangshou dao or shuangshou dadao (双手大刀) we find a lot more baxia-resembling blades like here and here

I also found that, while the cleaver-like Dadao is strictly a product of the 20th centuy, since dadao just means big sword or big knife, it has been used to refer to loads of different weapons! Some people could've called the zhanmadao and pudao "dadao" during the Ming dynasty as well.

Another potential baxia candidate that mandarin mansion classifies as similar to the later dadao (though longer, as seen in the illustration below) is the "Kuanren Piandao"

Which piqued my interest because this diagram classifying different tpye of Dao:

Claims that a Kuanrenbiandao (diferent spelling, same sword) is the same as a modern day Zhanmadao.

(So once again, all of these terms are interchangable)

Another opton Is the Chuanmeidao/Chuanweidao (船尾刀) below you can see a diagram, based on the Qing dynasty green standard army regulation, of blades all officially classified as types of "pudao"

The top middle is the Kuanren Piandao, and bottom left is the Chuanweidao.

Both of these have a lot of baxia-like qualities.

So there you go! live action baxia is based on a Nandao, audio drama baxia is based on a Niuweidao, and Manhua/donghua baxia is some kind of two-handed Zhanmadao/Pudao/Dadao depending on how you want to look at it.

I'm honestly surprised no one has made the creative decision to portray Baxia as a Jiuhuandao, aka 9 ringed broadsword yet.

I mean look at it! Incredibly imposing. Would make for a great Baxia imo. (@ upcoming mdzs manga and mobile game: take notes!)

[tavina-writes]

briefly going hnnnnnnnng at people misrepresenting genre norms and tropes re: wuxia, but this is tumblr so I am merely going hnnnng and getting on with my day.

But god it does make me tired to behold these misconceptions with my eyeballs sometimes.

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

Parallels in the Yi City arc: Yi City Quartet & 3Zun

(Long post ahead!)

I think one overlooked detail about the Yi City arc is how closely its characters parallel the story of 3Zun – with Xiao Xingchen as Lan Xichen, Xue Yang as Jin Guangyao, and Song Lan and A-Qing as aspects of Nie Mingjue! Though we can't know if its intentional, the sheer number of similarities does suggest to me that it shouldn't be overlooked – so, let's investigate.

Both Xiao Xingchen and Lan Xichen play the role of the 'betrayed' — significantly, because of some sort of blindness.

While for Xiao Xingchen this is physical, Lan Xichen is also blind to Jin Guangyao's true nature. This blindness has been shaped by their betrayer: Xue Yan blinded Song Lan, leading to Xiao Xingchen sacrificing his own eyes for him, while Jin Guangyao deliberately acts to make himself appear honourable and innocent to the people he encounters. This means Lan Xichen cannot 'see' anything contradictory to this about him. This theme of blindness becomes important to the thematic implications of this arc, which we'll talk about later.

In both cases, the 'betrayer' has some role in shaping this blindness, and uses it to their advantage.

Xue Yang blinded Song Lan, causing Xiao Xingchen to give up his eyes for him. Jin Guangyao's crafted persona is the reason Lan Xichen doesn't suspect anything about him. Xue Yang uses Xiao Xingchen's blindness to conceal his identity/nature and thus get close to an unsuspecting him; Jin Guangyao is likewise able to be unsuspected, while using Lan Xichen's generosity to murder Nie Mingjue and gaining a strong ally/defender. Regardless of intent towards Lan Xichen himself, this is still true.

This leads to an identity reveal and betrayal, in which the former party is blindsided (...pun not intended, I couldn't find a better word).

Xiao Xingchen is shocked that Xue Yang is Xue Yang when A-Qing tells him; Lan Xichen likewise does not want to believe Jin Guangyao isn't the person he thought he knew (though, he does promise to evaluate his beliefs!), and when Jin Guangyao ends up sealing his spiritual powers and betraying him, he doesn't see it coming.

Additionally, Lan Xichen and Xiao Xingchen are both tricked into stabbing a member of their group, as a part of someone else's revenge.

For Lan Xichen, it's an outside party (Nie Huaisang); for Xiao Xingchen, it's another member of this group (Xue Yang). Nie Huaisang wanted to take revenge on Jin Guangyao, and Xue Yang wanted to take revenge on Xiao Xingchen himself.

Also, Lan Xichen was tricked by his Xue Yang counterpart into being an instrument for a group member's murder, which could also parallel these events on Xiao Xingchen's side!

So, why is this important?

A common theme in MDZS is being critical of information/rumours. Don't accept something at first glance – question the validity, the evidence, the reason it's being brought up. We see this in the way Lan Wangji acts (eg when discussingg the case of the Chang clan) and in how he teaches the Juniors; we see this in how Wei Wuxian questions the words and intentions of Sisi and Bicao, even when having people suspect Jin Guangyao would be beneficial to him; we see this in the very premise of the novel, as something we were led to believe was true at first glance (by the title and prologue) is proven to be entirely false.

And, in Lan Xichen and Xiao Xingchen's case, we see the dangers of the opposite. That's not blaming them – Jin Guangyao is a very good manipulator and I’d argue Lan Xichen handled the situation very well when it was raised, and Xiao Xingchen was physically blind and couldn’t have guessed the body on the roadside would be Xue Yang of all people – but factually, both characters believed something without having seen the full picture, and were stabbed in the back for it. Lan Xichen could have considered Nie Minjue's words to provide another perspective, and Xiao Xingchen could have inquired into this mysterious person's background and questioned whether they were exploitative (even if it may have been unreasonable, and wouldn't have changed much since Xue Yang is a very good liar), yet both didn't. They both do accept or try to accept what we know is the truth when it's raised to them, but unfortunately it's too late and both pay a steep price. It's also worth noting that both are considered righteous figures (you can debate about Lan Xichen, but that's his in-universe perception), and neither had malicious intent towards any group member. But it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, or how good of a person you are – if you believe things unquestioningly, it'll still lead to harm. Both to you, and unintentionally by you, too. After all, this unquestioning acceptance of one-sided hearsay is a major driver of the mob mentality so heavily critiqued in the book.

And yes, this could've worked had their stories not so closely paralleled each others' – but I'd argue Xiao Xingchen's physical blindness serves to lampshade the metaphorical blindness of Lan Xichen, accentuating this theme. And also having two similar stories helps draw attention to what both of them are saying much more easily than if the stories had been very different.

At the end, however, Lan Xichen is left alive and able to reflect on what led him to this scenario – unlike his spiritual predecessor. Perhaps this is a glimmer of hope, a sign that there is more room for the questioning of rumours and for critical thinking skills in the world now, especially as the younger generation who embodies this begins to grow up; or perhaps it's just another detail of just how doomed Xiao Xingchen was, because despite embodying this theme, was there anything to reflect on and do differently, that would've changed the outcome of his story? As we said before, Xue Yang is a very good liar, and there really wasn't a reason to constantly suspect him from the information Xiao Xingchen had and (more importantly) could feasibly gather. Regardless, the difference in where they end up is important when analysing similarities, and I'm inclined to believe it is a small sign the world can change for the better.

(Similarities on other members under the cut – because there are a lot for everyone else, too, and this post isn't just about the two mentioned above. Once more, we'll be analysing both the 'what' and the 'why'.)

Xue Yang and Jin Guangyao play the role of the 'betrayer' or 'villain', hiding the fact that they're causing and wanting to cause harm – successfully from one member, unsuccessfully from the other(s).

The 'What'

Both kill the suspecting, the main difference being who they're targeting with this action (for Xue Yang, this taints Xiao Xingchen further, whereas Jin Guangyao was simply targeting Nie Mingjue and not Lan Xichen at all). Additionally, both are from a lower-class*, non-cultivator background, who were taken in by the Jin sect and rose to power through this and through doing… morally dubious things. Both share revenge as a motivator – specifically, revenge against an older, male Sect Leader who used them, rejected them and physically harmed them in some way too (Chang Ci'An due to Xue Yang being a street child; Jin Guangshan due to Jin Guangyao being the ‘son of a prostitute’). However, they have both accomplished this revenge goal at the time of their main story. They also have worked together and helped each other in their actions in the past (Villainous Friends extra). Also, both end up losing a hand to Lan Wangji, coincidentally enough.

The 'Why'

Though classism is a present theme in both their stories, I wouldn’t say this is what the parallels are drawing attention to — it’s drawn attention to much more when dealing with Jin Guangyao, and the idea that being treated badly isn’t an excuse for your actions is more prevalent in contrast (with characters like WWX and A-Qing) than similarities. Thematically, they instead serve to show just how easily information can be twisted and distributed – and again, why it's so important we don't accept everything at first glance. Outside of themes, their parallels do contrast them slightly, too — after all, Jin Guangyao’s treatment of Lan Xichen** is much more positive than Xue Xang’s of Xiao Xingchen, despite the ‘betrayed’ treating both of the similarly. But, one could argue, how much does this actually matter? Considering the eventual harm brought to this figure by them regardless, and everything else each of them did? Whatever the answer, the questions are raised by these similarities between them.

Finally, Nie Mingjue is paralleled by both Song Lan and A-Qing in different ways, though the Song Lan parallels are more prominent.

The 'What': Song Lan

All three were killed by the ‘betrayer’ — however, both Nie Mingjue’s and Song Lan’s murders occured before the betrayal, and their deaths and post-mortem identity reveals play an important role in it. A-Qing witnessing Song Lan’s death (as well as just discovering Xue Yang’s identity from Song Lan) is what makes her tell Xiao Xingchen who Xue Yang is, catalysing that betrayal, and Xiao Xingchen discovering Song Lan’s identity makes the betrayal have… let’s say even more of an impact :’). Meanwhile, the identity reveal of the mysterious corpse triggers the investigation of Jin Guangyao, and also starts to catalyse his downfall, leading to the events of the Guanyin temple. Additionally, both turn into fierce corpses encountered by the cast of the main story (both fighting Wen Ning and starting more antagonistic than they end up), with these corpses having been modified in some way by the ‘betrayer’: Nie Mingjue’s corpse is cut up, and Song Lan’s has the needles inserted and is under Xue Yang’s control. I wouldn’t especially say there are themes or questions raised here, it’s more similarities in the group dynamic, but it’s still very interesting to see.

There isn't as much to say here on the 'why' side of things, though there may be something I'm missing. The role of these characters here is mainly in service of the themes in the other characters' arcs – but it's still useful to analyse just how many factual similarities there are, again to give us hints as to whether these parallels between the groups were intentional or not.

The 'What': A-Qing

A-Qing and Nie Mingjue have less parallels, but they definitely exist. Their role here is their constant suspicion — they both suspect and keep suspecting the ‘betrayer’’s actions, despite the trust of the ‘betrayed’ in them (though Nie Mingjue is certainly more violent in this regard). Additionally, both play an important role in the death of the ‘betrayer’ as undead beings: the ghost of A-Qing by constantly tapping her bamboo pole to reveal Xue Yang’s position, and Nie Mingjue’s fierce corpse by directly killing Jin Guangyao. Both are souls through which Wei Wuxian experiences the events of their stories, and both also end the story in some sort of container — Nie Mingjue in the coffin and A-Qing’s broken soul in a spirit-trapping pouch — but admittedly that’s much more flimsy than the rest of my points.

The 'Why': A-Qing

Though at first glance it seems like this suspicion didn't do anything positive for the characters – both ended up dead at the hands of the one spreading/taking advantage of misinformation – it's important to note that these characters are the characters the truth is revealed through. Though I'd argue Nie Mingjue was probably blinded by his own assumptions as much as Lan Xichen was blinded by his own, even if it did end up lining up more closely with the truth, he still plays the same role as A-Qing in questioning and suspecting somebody despite it appearing – on the surface – that there's nothing wrong. And I don't think it's coincidence that in both these cases, the truth is revealed through somebody who did play this role.

Final Thoughts

Though it is possible these parallels were still coincidences, there really are a lot of similarities between the groups' storylines – and they do serve the purpose of important themes within the book. Therefore, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they were intentional on some level! And even if I'm reading too far into things and they weren't? It doesn't mean they hold no value.

Finally, these parallels are really interesting on their own, but it’s also really interesting to compare where each group ended up. Both groups ended up destroyed due to murder done by the ‘betrayer’, with only one person left standing. However, while Xue Yang was the survivor of the Yi city group (and was later killed by LWJ), the survivor of the Venerated Triad was Lan Xichen — someone who, as mentioned, though heavily affected, now has the chance to grow as a person and fully take things with all their context because of it. So despite the prevalence in the Jianghu of the attitude MXTX is critiquing, despite Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji and Mianmian only really being able to find peace by stepping away rather than changing it, despite the tragedy of the stories of both the Yi City quartet and of 3zun... ultimately, these parallels could indicate hope.

—

*Although there is a big difference in how much lower this class is, of course.

**There is also the aspect of Xue Yang having a negative past with Xiao Xingchen before, with the opposite being true for Jin Guangyao and Lan Xichen. Jin Guangyao is known to have a good memory and hold grudges — so, if the pairs’ roles were reversed, would anything fundamentally change?

[whetstonefires]

I think it's reached the status of pet peeve for me at this point, how common it is in the fandom for people to assume that adoption into the Jiang family was a unilateral good, that Wei Wuxian definitely wanted and which was withheld from him, thereby proving he was not valued enough by his sect and teacher.

Partly just because that's boring, and leads to boring interpretations of the characters, personal opinion.

Partly because it often tends to reflect an uncritical absorption of the in-universe classist belief that being the son of Wei Changze was inherently valueless, and not worth keeping for its own sake.

And maybe especially because I'm starting to feel like it arises from an overall really flat perception of adoption as an institution, that American fans of a Chinese piece of fiction should maybe subject to more scrutiny.

[doufudanshi]

hi! I'm a big fan of your translations, thanks for sharing! I was wondering if you've ever done your own translations/interpretations of the names of the characters in mdzs?

hi!! ahh thank you! yes, I do have a (wip) post with my translations of character titles (eg cssr) and proper nouns in mdzs here! and I actually have been meaning to post an analysis of the mdzs surnames for a long time, so I'll use this ask to do so! thank you for reminding me!!

note: the characters are in traditional chinese :)

魏 Wei

this one is pretty self-explanatory for anyone who can read chinese. on the right is a 鬼 gui radical, which means ghost! for our lil 鬼道之王 king of the ghost path <3

(this radical also appears in a lot of words for "soul," such as 魂魄)

藍 Lan

I've often seen people simply say 藍 lan means "blue," and that wouldn't be wrong but it also wouldn't be completely correct. similar to how wwx clarifies that the 義 yi of 義城 yi city is not that of 俠義 heroic justice, but that of 義莊 coffin home, the in-universe definition from chapter 18 is that the lan surname is derived from 伽藍 qielan, which is a loan word from sanskrit, “saṃgharāma,” meaning buddhist monastery.

溫 Wen

溫 wen means temperature, warm. the wens do love their sun. pretty straightforward!

金 Jin

also straightforward. the jins are rich and opulent, and 金 jin means gold!

聶 Nie

here's where things get interesting. this is the one that made me think more about the surnames, and the reason why they're written in traditional here. I had always read nhs's name in simplified (聂) but when I saw it in traditional (聶), it clicked.

not only does 聶 nie mean "to whisper," but nhs has three 耳 ears in his name!!

AND INDEED, NHS HAS EARS EVERYWHERE, AND HE IS ALWAYS LISTENING. 👂👂👂

江 Jiang

this one I had to think about for a bit. of course, there's the most direct answer, which is that 江 jiang means river—and the jiang's are, of course, well known for their lotus pier and rivers and such. but a more interesting thought that occurred to me was that 江 may be a reference to 江湖 jianghu, aka rogue martial artist communities who aren't affiliated with mainstream society often seen in wuxia fantasy novels. those part of the jianghu do not adhere to government/law, but rather live under individual moral codes of conduct re righteousness, justice, vengeance, etc. quoting jeannette ng's essay on wuxia:

In Stateless Subjects: Chinese Martial Arts History and Postcolonial History, Petrus Liu translates jianghu as “stateless”, which further emphasizes that the hero’s rejection of and by the machineries of government. Jianghu is thus a world that rejects the dictates of the state in favor of divine virtue and reason, but also of a sense of self created through clan and community.

the jiang family precepts and ideals seem v aligned with this aspect of jianghu morality—after all, jc never lets us (or himself) forget that wwx's acts of vigilante heroism are those of an ideal jiang.

Bonus: 莫 Mo

mo xuanyu was only ever a blank canvas. 莫 mo means nothing, no one, none. </3

[mxtxfanatic]

Another person agreed, “Yes, we’re in harsh times, right? Sect Leader Jiang is right. In terms of evil or not, who’s more evil than the Wen-dogs? He’s on our side anyways. I say it’s fine as long as he’s killing the Wen-dogs.”

–Chapter 48: Guile, exr

The problem with this mentality is that the Sunshot Campaign repositioned the cultivation world’s morality into “Wen Clan = evil; anyone else = good.” So instead of positioning the actions and beliefs of the Wen Clan and their allied clans as evil, the people themselves become evil, and as long as you are not surnamed Wen or allied to them, no matter your actions, you cannot be considered evil under this logic. This is why Jin Guangshan can host a banquet with the former allies of Wen Ruohan sitting in seats of honor after having allied themselves to the Jin Clan while no one raises this as an issue. This is why the “righteous” clans can turn a blind eye on the labor camp issue when Wei Wuxian storms the banquet. This is the problem conceptualizing morality as biologically inherent to people rather than a series of actions and beliefs that each individual chooses to dedicate themselves to.

“As long as he’s killing Wen-dogs” any act of depravity and inhumanity can be justified. Any act of depravity and inhumanity, indeed, becomes righteous.

[waitineedaname]

beloved tumblr mutual...... i see you post all the time about the show(?) with the pretty long hair men...... but dear lord what is it about. ive tried to piece it together but i just cannto understand. help me. help me beloved tumblr mutual. i need to know a vague summary !! :)

this series is always difficult to summarize concisely, but I will do my best!

the long hair prettymen series you're likely referring to is Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation/MDZS/The Untamed! it was originally a BL novel series, but it was also made into a wildly successful live action drama (The Untamed) which was my avenue into the series! it's about the rise and fall of Wei Wuxian, an extremely talented cultivator (sword wizard) who goes from celebrated war hero to reviled necromancer. the series opens with his death and then resurrection 13~16 years later. it's about necromancy and the horrors of war and politics and reputation and the rumor mill and family and sacrifice, but it's also about what if the class clown bad boy and hall monitor valedictorian were madly in love with each other. it's also about one kid having a shit ton of uncles. it's great! I cannot recommend it enough, it's truly a delight to read and watch, even when it's supremely corny. the creator does a fantastic job of balancing humor and tragedy, and the characters make me want to eat drywall

however, the waters may be muddy, because recently I have started posting about another long haired prettyboy series, which is Scum Villain's Self-Saving System! it's another novel series by the same author as MDZS and I'm only halfway through it, but I'm having a great time. it's about a dude getting isekai'd into an absolutely horrible web novel that he obsessively hates, and he gets thrown in the villain's role. it's hysterical, and also has been shredding my heart periodically. but it's mostly very funny, and I'm obsessed with the characters. everyone in this series needs serious help, they're all fucked in the head

[niobefurens]

Wēn Family Tree 👀

Diagram below the cut.

“Wēn Qíng was renowned both within and without the Wēn Clan of Qíshān. She wasn’t a daughter of the head of the Wēn family, Wēn Ruòhán, but rather the descendant of one of his elder cousins on the maternal side (表兄 = BiǎoXiōng). Although they were distant relatives, Wēn Ruòhán had had a good relationship with his cousin since they were children.” MDZS/GMDC 7Seas ; Vol. 3; p. 148.

表兄 Biǎoxiōng = cousin, usually means: mother's sibling's son, or father's sister's son, older than oneself. In MDZS it appears to be used for a greater degree of separation (as it is specified they are distant relatives  – third cousins, for example).

Me: If I assume the normal rules regulating marriage in ancient China to apply in MDZS, as they seem to (if we look at the other shì), I must take into account the following:

“Confucius described marriage as "the union of two surnames, in friendship and in love";

[in China] “traditionally incest has been defined as marriage between people with the same surname." One of the earliest marriage prohibitions, and one surviving to this day, was that forbidding persons of the same surname to marry. An imperial decree of 484 A.D. states that this rule was promulgated far back in the Zhou dynasty; 1122 to 255 B.C."

From the Confucian perspective, marriage brings together families of different surnames and continues the family line of the paternal clan.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_marriage

According to R. H. Van Gulik, as early as the feudal period (1500-222 BCE), “marriages among the members of the ruling class were strictly exogamic. The marrying with a woman of the same surname, be it principal wife, secondary wife, or concubine, was completely taboo.” Sexual Life in Ancient China: a Preliminary Survey of Chinese Sex and Society from ca. 1500 B.C. till 1644 A.D.; Leiden, Brill, (1974); p. 19.

Thus, Wēn Ruòhán’s cousin cannot be the son of a brother of Wēn Ruòhán’s mother (or, his surname; and his children’s surname could not have been Wēn). For the same reason, he cannot be the son of Wen Ruòhán’s father’s sister, as she would marry out of the Wēn-shì.

Wēn Qíng’s father must be the son of one of Wēn Ruòhán’s mother’s older relations (or even ancestors: aunt, great-aunt, etc.); who, obviously, also married a Wēn (or again, the surname would not be Wēn).

ME: Huh what?

🙄

More reaserch unearths:

“In ancient China, some evidence indicates cases where two clans had a longstanding arrangement wherein they would only marry members of the other clan. Some men also practiced sororate marriage, that is, a marriage to a former wife's sister, or a polygynous marriage to both sisters. This would have the effect of eliminating parallel-cousin marriage as an option because they would have the same surname, but would leave cross-cousin marriage acceptable.

In the ancient system of the Erya dating from around the third century BC, the words for the two types of cross cousins (甥 shēng), were identical with father's brother's children (甥 shēng); with mother's sister's children both being distinct (從母晜弟 cóngmǔ kūndì for boys and 從母姊妹 cóngmǔ zǐmèi for girls).

However, whereas it may not have been permissible at that time, marriage with the mother's sister's children also became possible by the third century AD. Eventually, the mother's sister's children and cross cousins shared one set of terms, with only the father's brother's children retaining a separate set. This usage remains today, with biǎo (表) cousins considered "outside" and paternal táng (堂) cousins being of the same house.”

See China, in this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

Anthropologist Francis Hsu described a mother's brother's daughter (MBD) as being “the most preferred type of Chinese cousin marriage.” Hsu, Francis L. K. (January–March 1945). "Observations on Cross-Cousin Marriage in China"; American Anthropologist 47 (1): pp. 83–103.

Me: Fine, let’s draw this up…

🥱 and, I did … 🥱 but ...

Look what happens when I get to Wēn Yuàn … 🥱

😳

I give MXTX enough credit that, if this is so, she put it there for a reason. In canon, incest is a very real social problem (JGY/QS).

Friend (who reads Chinese, and  who has kindly supplied the original terms): The Wen-shì do not adhere to the the exogamic rule. They are so big they can intermarry among Wēn without consanguinity issues.

Me: So the whole thing could ... just be RED ... !!!

Friend: Yes...

Huh? What?

So: not technically incest; but certainly galling to everyone else who adheres to the rules (think of the Làn...)

Is this one of the reasons everyone hates the Wēn??!!

Do they think they are so cool, and so hot, everyone else is beneath them?

In ancient republican Rome interrmarriage of this type would be considered a "regal insurgence" (attempt to make oneself king - illegal known as crimen regni).

Which is what Wēn Ruòhán seems to want do?

Make himself king? And the Wēn-shì the ruling family = dynasty ?

🙃

Suppposing someone got this far, any insights, comments, and takes are very welcome. ❤️

[fateandloveentwined]

wuxia, xianxia, and cultivation differences meta

translations: wuxia 武俠, xianxia 仙���, and cultivation 修真/修仙 (xīuzhēn/xīuxiān)

think i've seen posts on this eons ago, and i'm pretty sure there are tons of these online, but since this has been written up already let's just have another one.

wuxia 武俠

wuxia and xianxia sound similar, but basically for wuxia it is about the pugilistic world (江湖 jiānghú). It is relatively more down-to-earth, and people practice martial arts ("kungfu") in their current life -- they do not do it to become xians (仙) and gods (神) however.

Like Thousand Autumns and Faraway Wanderers/Word of Honor, it has more historical background and ties to the current court and kingdoms, because people are living in the moment and concern themselves with worldly issues.

Martial arts may seem unrealistic, but in view of chinese fantasy it would be considered "real". It consists of fighting moves and internal energy, which they call qi or nèigōng (內功), and at times you see people flying around, climbing hills and jumping across rooftops which is qīnggōng (輕功).

xianxia 仙俠

A level up would be xianxia, where characters in the story cultivate to become xians (and gods, like in the heaven official's blessing). They don't really care about earthly issues here now, because their ambitions lie beyond the current world, and cultivation, getting stronger, and an immortal life are majorly all their goals.

You may not always see them working towards that purpose, such as in mdzs they are considered a lower-xianxia society (低魔), meaning people don't go through all the steps of cultivation and only stay at the stage before the "golden core" stage.

In xianxia, characters still learn basic fighting moves aka. martial arts, but to direct the internal energy they use línglì (灵力), zhēnqì (真气), and fǎlì (法力), all xianxia terms you commonly see. "neigong" is practically nonexistent in this genre. That's why people building up their "neigong" instead of "lingli" are likely never going to be able to cultivate.

cultivation 修真/修仙

A subgenre in the xianxia category would be cultivation. Characters actively go through the stages of cultivation, and likely for the MC, because they are the main character, they successfully become a xian and exit the world at the end of the novel.

There are many stages of cultivation, usually defined at the beginning of the novel in the synopsis, and a typical example of the different levels would be this:

练气，筑基，金丹，元婴，化神，炼虚，合体，大乘，渡劫

And with a cursory search, an English translation would be something like this, albeit not with all the cultivation ranks identified.

Qi condensation (练气), Foundation establishment (筑基), Core Formation (金丹), Nascent Soul (元婴), and the names after that vary too greatly with translation and fandom so I'll jump straight to Immortal Ascension

extra info: getting into the philosophy of it all

It'd be interesting to note that the word "xiá" (俠) permeates all these genres. This is something akin to the concept of "hero", but not at all also, and I'd love to speak more on this but this post has already gone way longer than I hoped it would be, so perhaps another day.

Regardless, it is interesting to note that wuxia has a greater emphasis on "xia" than xianxia. (some joke that cultivation doesn't have the word "xia" in it, and much of that is because characters have foregone heroism and focused on gaining powers and working towards ascension instead). As a result, wuxia is more confucianism-oriented, though not without its taoism and buddhism influences.

xianxia, on the other hand, is mainly derived from "dào" (道), from taoism, which is another lengthy concept if I ever get to it.

And some may have heard of the "farming" genre, 种田 (zhòngtián). This has to do with golden fingers (mary sues) in imperialistic china, earning a wealth of money, and all that. It has nothing to do with cultivation, alike they sound in english.

that's it for now, hmu if you wish to ask/discuss!

(and apologies for the pinyin translations, hope it's understandable still! formally writing pinyin they are supposed to be two separate words not one.)

[peridot-tears]

Hey MDZS fandom. I want you guys to be careful interacting with this person.

If you don't already know, Chinese people have had a long history with cultural erasure when it comes to taking on English-language names. It started with imperialism, and continues as a way to "assimilate" and avoid mockery of our language in western countries.

For Chinese diaspora like myself, it's another form of racism we face, to the point where some of us are reclaiming our names in everyday life. Here's an article about this movement happening across Asian diasporas in the United States -- just to name one instance out of many.

The responses to this post reflect that:

You can see that my comment assumed "good faith." However, OP deleted these comments and blocked me. (That didn't stop other people from calling it out as well, though I have to assume that if OP was so offended by my comment, the next few people will receive the same treatment.)

I honestly didn't like whipping up the diaspora statement -- that I wrote with multiple Chinese diaspora fans of MDZS, all of us hailing from multiple different countries and backgrounds, our ancestry coming from completely different regions of China -- because it meant that we were encountering another microaggression.

If you ever wonder why MDZS and danmei fandoms in general seem to be so bereft of Chinese diaspora voices, that's absolutely because of these microaggressions: Someone makes a joke, writes a story, writes some meta, that is culturally ignorant at best, offensive and harmful at worst, and when we gently correct them, explaining why it's racist, the person in question shuts us down, dismisses us, gets defensive, or worse.

Regardless of where you are -- fandom, social media, on the street, at work, at school -- as long as you are interacting with other people, your words matter and affect other people. That includes being racially offensive, even if you didn't intend to be. It's how you respond to the people you've insulted that reveals your character, how willing you are to be complicit in their mistreatment.

My rule of thumb has always been this -- if multiple people, including those of the culture you've just made a microaggressive joke about, find it unfunny, racist, or harmful, then you listen. Dismiss or ignore them, then yes -- you absolutely are racist.

[tavina-writes]

I would also like to say for the record that all of the sects in MDZS are not implied to be any ethnicity but Han Chinese and to be quite frank it is alarming when people try to say the text says otherwise.

Like, this is mildly related to the ask I just answered, and I know we've all seen the meta discussing how barbarianism and racism is (le gasp!) present in Chinese works. (Which, well, yeah. yeah it is.) BUT critically I think in trying to scrutinize and apply shit to MDZS/CQL where all the characters are very much Han, we're just turning up new ways of being racist towards minority ethnicities here.

Case in point: "the Nie are Mongolian"

I've seen this oft repeated everywhere in both meta and fic and...do we understand this??? is racist??? Like the most common justifications I see point to the fact that the Nie (in the live action)....ride horses...have braids in their hair...come from a butcher heritage...are "brutish" <- there's no canonical evidence of this last point btw.

Do we think this is the entirety of what being Mongolian means? Do we think these points add up to "they're subtextually Mongolian?" Why do we think that?

They're not depicted either 1) with Mongolian names 2) with Mongolian religious traditions 3) with Mongolian clothing or hairstyle trends 4) as being reacted to in text as anything other than Han Chinese by other Han Chinese characters. 5) They are depicted on screen by Han Chinese actors.

Like maybe if someone is subscribing to "The Nie are canonically Mongolian and written in a racist way by MXTX in text/depicted in a racist way by the CQL showwriters" they should. Examine what they think being Mongolian is irl.

Maybe the issue is not how sects are presented in CQL or MDZS but how exhausting it is to wade through this fandom where people will misconstrue shit into things that are somehow, more racist in an attempt to deconstruct racism in a system they do not fully understand.

[whetstonefires]

I hope you're having an excellent day 😊😊😊 What about Wei Wuxian as Naruto?

Thanks! It was pretty good. I organized my embroidery floss and took advantage of being alone in the building to dance around like a maniac for about 20 minutes. My cat hated it. My knees aren't sure they approve either.

Wei Wuxian as Naruto has a lot going for it right out the gate. Orphaned sunshine boy protagonist types, now we're cooking with propane. They're even both fox coded!

However, at the risk of stating the obvious, if Wei Wuxian were Naruto he wouldn't be Naruto anymore. That is. Fundamental to Wei Wuxian is that he is brilliant and talented and he damn well knows it. He would excel without effort in ninja school--not as much as he did in Jiang Sect unless he unlike Naruto was still getting personal mentoring in honor of his late father, but still.

Difference is, when this Wei Wuxian slacks off in class and the teacher tries to embarrass him, if he reels off the correct answer and then reinvents senjutsu from first principles in a creepy-sounding way for a lark just to show off, the teacher is not going to think that he's just like his annoying late mother. (Though he'll still have one. Kushina and Cangse Sanren are fairly similar Dead Mom archetypes too.)

The teacher is going to think things like, no real child would say that shit and I'm expected to teach the monster fox that killed my family basic ninjutsu I hate this I hate this we're all gonna die.

So basically this Wei Wuxian gets his Yiling Laozu reputation mod as part of the starter pack. I don't think he'd handle it super gracefully! But not the worst, either.

Not even as badly as he did in the actual version, probably, on account of he doesn't know his own dark secret. So he can't self-isolate to protect it. Though him pulling away from people once he does learn would be cool.

He'd probably have forged slightly stronger social ties rather sooner than Naruto did, even if he was just as neglected and radioactive; Wei Wuxian doesn't care what people think of him nearly as much as Naruto does, but in some ways he's a more genuinely social person, and he's got much better social intuition, so it's easier for him to figure out what people want and either do that or not do that on purpose.

He'd have at least a bunch of casual friends. Mostly civilians, and other kids from ninja school whose parents told them not to play with him but they did anyway.

Wei Wuxian cannot do therapy no jutsu. He does not have that ability to confront and exist with emotional discomfort or that intensity of interest in what is going on with other people.

He does however have some level of Friendship Beam Attack (the plot to some extent hinges utterly on how effectively it hit Wen Ning) and it would presumably be more effective, in a shounen context.

But that's the thing, Wei Wuxian isn't really built to confront shounen manga style problems. Or, well, he is, but he's overbuilt for them; they're his bread and butter. One of Naruto's key motifs, early on at least before we got into the heavy power creep, is not being a genius.

Wei Wuxian, by definition, is a genius. He is the kind of guy who walks up to shounen manga sorts of problems scaled to what ought to be his level, handles them, and goes 'what, like it's hard?'

Wei Wuxian is designed to be destroyed not by external threats but by his own loyalties, politics, and lies. (Which was a point of confluence with Itachi I didn't really touch on because the flow was so different lmao.)

He's also, otoh, designed to be destroyed. Naruto is designed to start off artificially low and climb steadily up toward heaven. (Ymmv on how this worked out but he sure did escalate.)

You have to pick which schema to apply when performing the fusion--I mean, it's not either-or, the whole deal with Wei Wuxian is he goes through the entire arc of a tragedy and then comes back to life and stars in a romcom. These things can superimpose and stack. But there are structural decisions that have to be made early.

So anyway, Wei Wuxian as Naruto is not going to enter the Genin Team phase of life with the same priorities, even if he has largely conducted himself about the same way hitherto. 'Proving himself' so 'people will accept him' is not a motive that works for this character--you basically have to give him actual precious people earlier just to get him to care about attaining ninja rank at all.

Otherwise he would probably much rather loaf his way through his teens stealing jutsu and making trouble. Which is the well-adjusted reaction to the idea of becoming a child soldier, like. He likes recognition but 'showing off' is a reason he does dumb fun things, not difficult high-commitment ones. He's like if Shikamaru had ADHD and no parents.

Being twelve is going to make him dumber, but I can't see it making him not the kind of person who stops caring about his marks in school if the teacher is hostile.

If Wei Wuxian here isn't acting out of appreciation for the Hokage raising him, or something like that, you have to give him a practical motive to enter military service like 'Konoha stops supporting orphans out of the public purse at thirteen so he's got to get some kind of job and ninja is the least boring option' which. Is significantly less like either Naruto or Wei Wuxian in terms of reasons to do anything, and starts getting into solidly OC territory.

The whole fact that Konoha's worldbuilding centers around an attempt to move away from decentralized clannish social organization and promote the idea of shared, communal social institutions and (in theory) civil society, and the ways this does and does not work out for people especially considering it is still a relatively small military dictatorship, honestly interfaces super interestingly with how, in Mo Dao Zu Shi, one of the underlying challenges backstopping all character choice is that there is no feasible alternative to the clan system, and you have to pick a family-faction to depend upon and submit yourself to, or face the world with no safety net.

Like. Huh.

.....Kishimoto is honestly unusually-for-shounen well-grounded in the genres he's riffing on tbh, for all my bitching there were some very good reasons his work found such success; I would have liked to see what kind of story he produced without the insane pressures of the Weekly part of Weekly Shounen Jump. I wonder if he'll ever publish again. For all I know he already is lmao.

So anyway, however we manage it we get Wei Wuxian on his genin team with like. Lan Wangji and Mianmian or whoever. Actually that's hilarious. Yeah, make it lwj and lqy, both of them so done with his shit.

Setting up some wild role-reversal here--Lan Wangji being the one to go Away and Wei Wuxian asking him to stay? Or Naruto-person leaving into the dark, and Sasuke-person remaining and calling for him to come back? Either way. Getting some inversion. Tasty.

Where does this leave Jiang Cheng, though? Because in a lot of ways Uchiha 'Deuteragonist by Editorial Mandate' Sasuke is straddling both roles.

In many ways Wangxian is much more like if Naruto had an endgame romance with Neji. Which is a great ship tbh, I saw very little of it back in the day?? In a series with a smaller cast or with less Sasuke Creep (not sasuke being a creep, it's like power creep) it would probably have done numbers.

...Naruto going away for that timeskip really limited his opportunity to make connections in the village huh.

I guess it depends on the kind of narrative you're trying to put together. On one hand, you can do Jiang Fengmian as the rather-more-involved Third Hokage, with Jiang Cheng as an aged-up Konohamaru kind of figure. And then Jiang Yanli is standing in as both Iruka and. I know I know the ramen guy's name. Ichiraku. Soup! XD Emotionally significant soup!

But with a different backstory than either lmao. Kurama very possibly killed Yu Ziyuan in this universe, though I can't visualize her as a midwife.

[[[Why do I have so much Naruto lore on tap, there is no life value in knowing Sarutobi Hiruzen's wife was at ground zero of the Kyuubi attack because she was the expert overseeing Uzumaki Kushina's childbirth a;kdj;lafdks. I do not remember the things I was actually studying in high school nearly this well.]]]

(Actually Jin Ling is Konohamaru and Jiang Cheng is aged-down Asuma. But whatever.)

And in this case Wei Wuxian's genin team is Lan Wangji and Mianmian under idk who. Lan Qiren, possibly, although he seems more the Ebisu type. Lan Xichen? (It's not like he can serve as a plausible Itachi. Can you imagine.) Actual Kakashi, possibly; we can't replace everyone with mdzs characters; the cast sizes don't square.

Kakashi training Wei Wuxian is very funny to think about. He deserves this.

Or on the other hand for a different pacing and focus, the genin team is him, Jiang Cheng, and Jiang Yanli under Jiang Fengmian, who dies sometime after or probably during the climax of the chuunin exams. And Sarutobi stays Hokage, and probably doesn't die during the chuunin exams. And we aim for a Naruto/Neji kind of romance storyline lol.

What is the Lan Wangji equivalent of Neji exposing his caged bird seal in front of god and everybody and ranting (it is very unclear at what effective volume though you'd think the proctors would have shut him up if he could be heard from the stadium seating that shit was sedition) about his traumatic backstory and the deep injustices in his family's system of hierarchy? I'm gonna say Not That.

Wei Wuxian versus Lan Wangji important ideological-conflict bonding duel in the Chuunin exam finals sounds excellent though.

Either way Wei Wuxian is going to get much more thoroughly involved in the ugly ninja politics than Naruto ever did, and he's going to hate it so so bad and at least temporarily lose so so so hard. A likely story element is he becomes troublesome enough he winds up having to flee the village ahead of a scheme by Danzou to (fatally) rip the Kyuubi out of him and implant it in some thoroughly conditioned ROOT kid.

Maybe Wen Ning?? Idk. I'm mostly saying this because Wen Ning 1) canonically gets Victimized and Transformed and 2) shares some notes with Sai. And this means he's leaving, in part, for Wen Ning, which ties into some plot and character stuff from their original narrative. You could make it work.

Also him taking the replacement human sacrifice with him when he books it would be hysterical.

Anyway he's branded a missing nin and it is, canonically, illegal for him to tell anyone who doesn't already know about the kyuubi thing, so both Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji are appropriately what the fucking fuck and receive no adequate answer. This is a workable plot element.

Either the Jiangs or the Lans are the Uchiha, here, which has its own story value, lots of fun to be had. Gotta engineer a way he's protecting Jiang Cheng--does Danzou want to make him the jinchuuriki? Is Orochimaru or his replacement making a play for Jiang Cheng's bloodline limit, whatever it is, fun if it's eyeballs, and Wei Wuxian bargains to give him a jinchuuriki instead? Hmmm.

You want an inside and an outside threat, the obvious viper and the political spider, so you can silo information and make sure nobody entirely knows what's going on.

If it's Jiang Cheng who's assigned the role of bloodline limit macguffin, I have the very wicked urge to cast Yu Ziyuan as some combination of Itachi and Obito. Very Vader kind of effect.

Jin Guangyao as Kabuto, excellent, I need that innocent smile and those torture skills. This may require making Jin Guangshan much smarter than he really is just to fill out the ranks, or again you can keep Danzou as himself.

Tsunade is amusingly enough occupying an overlapping Baoshan Sanren and Wen Qing position; given one of them impersonated the other that time you'd have to do something with that. She's also got some Yu Ziyuan vibe up ofc. Tsunade just contains an entire franchise's supply of girlboss tbh.

Who could possibly stand in for Jiraiya, nobody, but at the same time. Wei Wuxian (with internal sapient asshole nuke) apprenticing under Jiraiya of the Sannin sounds like enough problem-creating goofy jackass genius clown energy in one place to open a singularity. That's too much. No narrative could survive.

Anyway someone please feel free to write this, I am intrigued but also will 100percent never ever put in the time it would take to realize any version of this concept.

[rozaceous]

ive read mdzs years ago and stalled on tgcf (mainly bc i got really busy and then forgot everything lmao), but never really tried scum villain. if you don't mind, can you share why you like it? personally, the summary didn't really draw me in and the animation looked unfortunately really .... low budget.

hi anon! you've activated my trap card, which is Talking About Things I Enjoy At Length! congratulations! congratulations! congratulations! important things must be said three times!

(i also stalled w tgcf btw, bc it's so long that i could never summon up sufficient interest. and i will say that the svsss donghua is less than inspiring. i thought it was fun but that's speaking as someone who watched it after already being in love w the source content, so ymmv. i wasn't a particular fan of the animation style either, but considering that scum villain is the black sheep of mxtx's works in terms of the official content that gets produced, i was glad for what i could get.)

reasons to love scum villain!

hilarious use of unreliable narrator. shen qingqiu is one of my top favorite characters ever. he's not stupid or even, despite common fan depiction, all that oblivious--he's just incredibly genre-savvy and hasn't realized that the genre has changed. also he's hysterical.

but then sometimes, too, you look more objectively at things he glosses over and have a 'wait a sec' moment bc it's actually deeply disturbing.

it has a really fun way of of playing with transmigration stories and tropes. this was, in a sense, my intro to chinese web novel conventions as a western reader, and you can learn a lot bc mxtx is busy poking fun at all of them.

phenomenally meta.

luo binghe is a fantastic character. ppl who don't like him--i'll meet you out back. ostensibly the protagonist of the novel sqq has found himself in, supposedly blessed with every talent and the world prepared to fall at his feet, but MAN is it hard being luo binghe.

ppl will make a big deal abt lbh being obsessed w sqq but fail to acknowledge that sqq is just as weird and obsessed abt lbh. epitome of that AITA response of:

liu qingge

mxtx does so much with her villains, always.

as much as some of the miscommunication between sqq and lbh is contrived, it's also literally the only way that things could play out and makes absolute sense.

this classic scene, given utterly without context:

After a pause, Shen Qingqiu changed his angle. "What's your name?" The first one replied. "Six Balls." "What does that mean?" "When I was born, my pa held me and said I was six balls heavy." Shen Qingqiu was speechless. Shot put balls or ping-pong balls?! This kind of name is absolutely meaningless.

i think, honestly, my favorite thing abt scum villain is that you can read it quickly and have a good time, but if you're taking your time and paying attention, there is so much more happening underneath the surface! it's such a clever book, i'm honestly stunned (and humbled) that mxtx produced this as her first novel and at such a young age.

[liverbiver9]

The more I read danmei in my monthly book club that I otherwise wouldn’t have read or even known about, the more it becomes painfully clear that most of the mdzs fandom (and possibly the other 2 mxtx fandoms but I’m not as well versed with them) have not interacted with the genre at large beyond mxtx, and it shows in the meta analysis people make (especially westerners).

And I am not excluding myself here! So much of my initial assumptions and interpretations of mdzs has changed after reading other danmei authors, especifically the less western-internet-popular ones.

My point is this: when reading a book from a culture that is not your own and in an unfamiliar genre, it will be impossible to grasp all the intricacies and subtleties nestled within the narrative and characterization until you’ve become more familiar with the culture and genre itself.

Don’t limit yourself to mxtx. There are more and more danmei being translated into English by publishing houses and even more are fan translated.

If you’re looking for a place to start, I have some recommendations!

1. Golden Terrace by Cang Wu Bin Bai.

Literally one of my favorite books I’ve ever read in my life, and I’m an English major. It is only 2 books and both are already published, so you won’t have to wait. The most tender, loving relationship I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading about. The translation is phenomenal, and it feels very similar to Jane Austen in its diction, plot, and characterization. I literally cannot explain with words how much I love this book.

2. To Rule in a Turbulent World by Gu Xue Rou

This series is just being translated and published, so it may take a while for the other books (I think 3-4?) will be out, but don’t let that scare you away! Without too much spoilers, the vibes of this first book reminds me of Harvest Moon games. Also a very sweet and tender main couple. Plus, this book is written by a male author!! Pretty rare in danmei, at least to my knowledge.

3. Thousand Autumns by Qian Qiu

Pretty dense with lots of philosophy, poetry references, and a more traditional wuxia world. This series is finished with 5 books in total. I had a hard time reading the first book, mostly because I didn’t connect that much with the mc at first, but I loved the world building and all the information I learned. I did eventually start connecting with the mc and ended the series fully besotted! Not a quick or easy read, but a worthwhile one.

4. Ballad of Sword and Wine by Tang Jiu Qing

The first book is out for this series, with the second being published later this month. It’s going to be a long one like tcgf, so it is a commitment read—but absolutely worth it!! Lots of palace politics and more Taoist-focused martial arts (think Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon). It is both fast and slow burn (I know that doesn’t make sense now; trust me, it will later on) and the main character is SO FASCINATING!! I want to study him like a bug. The overall characterization is phenomenal. The cast can be… intimidating, as there are a LOT of named characters, but they’re mostly there for world building (and the world building is fantastic!). Also, the translation here is GORGEOUS. You can tell it was translated by a writer, or at least someone who’s read the whole text (you’d be surprised…)—everything is so vivid!

[unforth]

MXTX Fandom Content Thief: @/coldxperience

I've spotted someone wholesale copying the compiled list of Lan Clan rules I put together a few years ago. My list is here:

https://archiveofourown.org/works/25470928

Their list is here:

How do I know it's stolen? It's insanely easy to tell, actually. See, this is in my original a/n on ao3:

[ID screen capture of text that reads: These rules are presumably numbered, as when Lan Wangji is being beaten, Lan Qiren asks him “what is the 52nd doctrine of the Lan clan?” However, they are given in a different order in different sources so establishing how they are numbered is impossible. Since we can’t know the order they “belong” in, I’ve organized them by grouping them thematically. For the few I know numbers for, those numbers are included in parenthesis. End ID]

The rules have no official order or categories. I made up this order and these categories myself. And yet in coldxperience's post...

[ID: two side by side screen captures, one from coldxperience's blog, one from AO3, showing rules in a category labeled "appropriate behavior" and two matching lists of rules in the exact same order. End ID]

[ID two side by side screen captures showing rules in categories about respecting authority and cultivation. Again the categories are the same and the rules lists are identical and in the same order. End ID]

Look, there IS no canon categories or canon order. I made them up to organize them. It's absolutely impossible that someone else compiling a list would land on the exact same categories and the exact same order.

Coldxperience's list is plagiarized from my list. Which tbh I wouldn't have even minded all that much except they're claiming its their own work. My list was barely even MY own work, I used other people's translations (and I credited them). So like. Coldxperience didn't credit me, didn't credit the actual translators, and has the gall to apologize that there might be mistakes cause English and Chinese aren't their first languages.

There might be mistakes. On your stolen list. Gee, ya think?

Anyway, this person has been posting other meta they supposedly wrote about character name translations and such. If they stole wholesale from me they certainly stole from others.

I highly recommend yall block them.

(DO NOT HARASS THEM. DO NOT HARASS OTHER PEOPLE ITS NOT FUCKING WORTH IT JUST SPREAD THE WORD BLOCK AND MOVE ON).

[bumfucknowhere]

Reading mdzs meta posts that involve JGY is so funny. Like, for every other character I translate the acronym into the name with out even thinking: WWX is Wei Wuxian, LWJ is Lan Wangji, but JGY is always just Jiggy. Like, I’ll be reading a serious post and then be slapped in the face with a silly little nickname. Jiggy.