#otw discourse

[volixia669]

OTW’s Legal Chair is Pro-AI and What That Means

traHoooooooo boy. Okay, so for those who don’t know, OTW shared in their little newsletter on May 6th an interview their legal chair did on AI.

Most people didn’t notice...Until a couple hours ago when I guess more high profile accounts caught wind and now every time I refresh the tweet that links the newsletter that’s another 10+ quote tweets.

The interview itself is short, was done in February, and...Has some gross stuff.

Essentially Betsy Rosenblatt agrees with Stability AI that its fair use, and believes that AI is “reading fanfic”.

To be EXTREMELY clear: Generative AI like ChatGPT is not sentient. No AI is sentient, and Generative AI are actually incredibly simple as far as AI goes. Generative AI cannot “read”, it cannot “comprehend” and it cannot “learn”.

In fact, all Generative AI can do is spit out an output created out of a dataset. Its output is reliant on there being variables for it to spit back out. Therefore, it cannot be separated from its dataset or its “training”.

Additionally, the techbros who make these things are profiting off them, are not actually transforming anything, and oh yeah, are stealing people’s private data in order to make these datasets.

All this to say: Betsy Rosenblatt does not actually understand AI, has presumably fallen for the marketing behind Generative AI, and is not fit to legally fight for fic writers.

So what does this mean? Well, don’t delete your accounts just yet. This is just one person, belonging to a nonprofit that supposedly listens to its users. There’s a huge backlash on social media right now because yeah, people are pissed. Which is good.

We should absolutely use social media to be clear about our stances. To tell @transformativeworks that we are not okay with tech bros profiting off our fanworks, and their legal team should be fighting back against those who have already scraped our fanworks rather than lauding a program for doing things its incapable of doing.

I have fanfic up on Ao3. I have fanfic I’m working on that I’d love to put there too. But I cannot if it turns out the one safe haven for ficwriters is A-Okay with random people stealing our work and profiting off of it.

[wander-wren]

every once in a while i like to poke my head into "anti [x]" tags just to see what the other side thinks. recently i was looking through "anti ao3" and found a really funny post claiming that ao3 is not anticapitalist, but actually the Definition Of Capitalism, bc it relies on volunteer labor while supposedly having the money to pay a staff.

oh, honey.

but i am not going to make unsubstantiated claims on the internet, no, and this gives me an excuse to look at ao3's whole budget myself, which i've been meaning to do for a while. these numbers are taken from the 2022 budget post and budget spreadsheet.

ao3's total income for 2022, from the two donation drives, regular donations, donation matching programs, interest, and royalties was $1,012,543.42. less than $300 of that was from interest and royalties, so it's almost all donations. and that's a lot, right? surely an organization making a million dollars a year can afford to pay some staff, right?

well, let's look at expenses. first of all, they lose almost $37,000 to transaction fees right away. ao3 and fanlore (~$341k and ~$18k, respectively) take up the biggest chunks of the budget by far. that money pays for, to quote the 2022 budget post, "server expenses—both new purchases and ongoing colocation and maintenance—website performance monitoring tools, and various systems-related licenses."

in some years, otw also pays external contractors to perform audits for security issues, and for more servers to handle the growing userbase. servers are expensive as hell, guys. in 2022, new server costs alone were $203k.

each of their other programs only cost around $3,000 or less, and otw paid around $78k for fundraising and development. wait, how do you lose so much money on your fundraising?? from the 2022 budget post: "Our fundraising and development expenses consist of transaction fees charged by our third-party payment processors for each donation, thank-you gift purchases and shipping, and the tools used to host the OTW’s membership database and track communications with donors and potential donors."

then the otw paid an additional $74k in administration expenses, which covers "hosting for our website, trademarks, domains, insurance, tax filing, and annual financial statement audits, as well as communication, management, and accounting tools."

in case you weren't following all of that math, the total expenses for 2022 come out to $518,978.48. woah! that's a lot! but it's still only a little over half of their net revenue. weird. i wonder what they do with that extra $494k?

well, $400k of it goes to the reserves, which i'll get to in a second. the last $93k, near as i can tell, gets rolled over to the next year. i'll admit this part i'm a little unsure about, as it's not clear on the spreadsheet, but that's the only thing that makes sense.

the reserves, though are clear. the most recent post i could find on the otw site about it were in the board meeting minutes from april 2, 2022: "We’re holding about $1million in operating cash that is about twice the amount of our annual operating costs. There is another $1million in reserves due to highly successful fundraisers in the past. The current plan for the reserves is to hold the money for paid staff in the future. It’s been talked about before in the past and we’re still working out the details, but it’s a rather expensive undertaking that will result in large annual expenses in addition to the initial cost of implementation."

woah....they're PLANNING to have paid staff eventually! wild!

so let's assume, for easy numbers, that the otw currently has $1.5 million in reserves. before we even get to how to use that money, let's look at the issues with implementing paid staff:

deciding which positions are going to be paid, because it can't be all of them

deciding how much to pay them, bc minimum wage sure as hell isn't enough, and cost of living is different everywhere, and volunteers come from all over the world

hiring staff and implementing new systems/tools to handle things like payroll and accounting

making sure you continue to earn enough money both to pay all of the staff and have some in reserves for emergencies or leaner donation drives

probably even more stuff than that! i don't run a nonprofit, that's just what i can think of off the top of my head.

okay, okay, okay. for the sake of argument, let's assume there is a best-case scenario where the otw starts paying some staff tomorrow. how much should they be paid? i'm picking $15 an hour, since that's what we fought for the minimum wage to be. by now, it should be closer to $20 or $25, but i'm trying to give "ao3 is capitalism" the fairest shot it can get here, okay?

ideally, if someone is being paid to help run ao3, they shouldn't need a second job. every job should pay enough to live off of. and running a nonprofit is hard work that leads to a lot of burnout--two board members JUST resigned before their terms were up. what i'm saying is, i'm going to assume a paid otw staff is getting paid for 40 hours of work a week, minimum. that's $31,200.

at $400,000 per year, the otw can afford to pay 12 people. that's WITHOUT taking into account the new systems, tools, software, etc they would have to pay for, any kind of fees, etc, etc.

oh, and btw, if you're an american you're still making barely enough to survive in most places, AND you don't have universal healthcare, vision, or dental. want otw to give people insurance, too? the number of people they can pay goes down.

it's. not. possible.

a million dollars is a lot of money on the face of it, but once you realize how MUCH goes into running something like the otw, it goes away fast.

just for reference, wikipedia also has donation drives every year. wikipedia, as of 2021, has $86.8 million in cash reserves and $137.4 million in investments. sure, wikipedia and ao3 are very different entities, but that disparity is massive. and i should note that if you give $10 to wikipedia they don't give you voting rights, i'm just saying.

by the way, you may have noticed that i didn't mention legal costs at all here. isn't one of otw's big Things about how they do legal advocacy?

yes, it is. they have a whole page about that work. and i can't for the life of me find a source on otw's website (and i'm running out of time to write this post, i'll look harder later), but i am 90% sure i learned before that most, if not all, of otw's legal work/advice/etc is done pro bono. i've also seen an anti-ao3 person claim their legal budget is only $5k or so, but they didn't have a source. but keep in mind that if they don't have a legal budget, all the numbers above stay the same, and if they do, there is even less money available for paid staff.

you can criticize ao3 and the otw all you want! there are many valid reasons to criticize them, and i do not think they're perfect either. but if you're going to do so, you should at least make sure you can back up your claims, bc otherwise you just look silly.

[conarcoin]

people are being really bad faith and paranoid about ao3 and ai. they're not letting companies scrape your fics (they actively block common crawl), and the main reason i think they're not outright banning ai generated writing is that it's quite literally not possible to moderate, and that their goal doesn't exactly align with purging content

[faranae]

Rant incoming (OTW/AO3 funding)

Pardon the ramble, this has been going on for months (years technically) but I saw a post again today shared by someone moderately influential and it's a "straw that broke the camel's back" thing. I'll probably pop it later.

It hurts to see how vitriolic folks can be when it comes to the OTW's (Organization for Transformative Works) fundraising. The OTW is more than just a "fanfiction host". The work they do and have done, not just with AO3 but also their other projects and occasional legal advocacy, is important to some people.

Is the OTW perfect? No. Are they struggling for funds? Also no. But these "righteous" PSAs implying the OTW is super wealthy and donations are just throwing money into a fire are misleading at best and positively reek of semi-malicious intent at worst.

So why would anyone rage so hard and write PSAs over which harmless causes other people spend their disposable income in support of?

[tinfoil hat below the cut]

Could it be partly caused by the small (but vocal) fandom-adjacent cliques that astroturf to sabotage the OTW's public image at every opportunity because they're Big Mad that AO3 fights to preserve content they don't like?

Do you really believe that if they win re: the big-nope taboos they'll abandon efforts to sour the other topics they hate? For example, LGBTQ+ content (emphasis on the T, gotta protect them kids /s) has been targeted by these same groups--over literal decades of fandom history--as have works and content created by and for victims of various abuses.

[/tinfoil]

I do not personally support the aforementioned big-nope taboos, but censorship in fandom is a slippery slope that we have fallen down before and I do not want to see that happen again.

I'm NOT saying everyone complaining about the OTW/AO3 fundraising is campaigning for or agrees with the TERFs/bigots et al who seed this shit into our communities, far from it. I am saying it is painfully obvious when a post is blindly parroting their rhetoric (which has often been carefully trimmed and presented in a way that appeals to them).

Next time you see a post hating on something (anything, really) out of nowhere, take a second to think about where they are getting their info, and whether or not that source is credible. For fuck's sake, I've even seen fake screenshots of the OTW's website tweaked just enough to "prove" their points. It's childish.

"But they have a couple million in net assets! They're not allowed to have savings!! They're a nonprofit!!!"

No, no, no. Perfect example of the "parroting" I mentioned earlier. Net assets are not cash. That is the value of everything in and owned by the OTW combined minus their debts/liabilities, not how much they have in the bank.

The OTW is pretty transparent about how much it brings in and where the money goes; They have to do this by law to maintain their nonprofit status. Hell, they'll even toss you the numbers if that's your schtick.

Again, not perfect, but nowhere near as greed-riddled as has been implied by so many posts on my dash over the past couple months. I think I'm more just upset at seeing people I know and respect falling for it hook line and sinker. It makes me angry to think about the people I love being manipulated by folks who seem to be allies, but who are simply waiting for permission to destroy us next.

/endrant

[hauntedfalcon]

“you want AO3 to stop asking for donations every six months? oh then you must want to see porn ads everywhere”

no you fucking walnuts I want to see THE DIVERSE FUNDRAISING THAT IS PART AND PARCEL WITH BEING AN ESTABLISHED NONPROFIT

[volixia669]

Okay, in a SEPARATE post that’s not linked to OTW sharing their statement though here’s the statement for transparency: https://www.transformativeworks.org/ai-and-data-scraping-on-the-archive/

Fuck their stupid fucking statement and I hope their legal chair gets booted from her post.

Listen, I don’t give a fuck about most of what’s on the archive. I’ve even read some of the fucked up shit there.

But I am not fine with my work sharing space with ChatGPT garbage.

And no, this isn’t me “gatekeeping writing”. Hell no. Start typing bucko because it’s easy as putting words down and as hard as regularly practicing. Like all skills. Lots of writers get their start writing fanfic, and many continue to write fanfic.

This is me being extremely aware of how a lot of people in tech and oh gee, folks like Network Producers, are gleefully using generative AI to not hire artists, and pay those they do hire to clean up the garbage less than their usual rate.

OTW and Ao3 was supposed to be on our side. The side of creative, the side of those who enjoyed this hobby. Yes, we have to explain on a yearly basis why fucked up fics are on the archive and why having lawyers on call is important. But it was for us.

Yet now, they’re trying to be neutral on an issue that deeply effects creatives and those in creative industries. They’re trying to pretend that it’s not big deal. Except for someone like myself whose ability to pay for housing whilst being disabled is dependent on there being creative wfh jobs, it really is a big deal.

You’d think our archive would give a fuck about how these AI impact creatives but I guess not. I guess fucking not.

[dead-pidoves-dirt-takes]

This whole thing surrounding the issues with OTW feels weird but it's because I don't have enough information on how AO3 and the OTW work to confidently say anything.

So I guess I'd like to ask some questions.

What is this about? Is it about the way the OTW treats/ didn't adequately protect its volunteers, especially its volunteers who are people of colour? Or is it about how AO3 and its orphaning system violate the law surrounding the retention of information?

Because these are two very different conversations that have different outcomes, being wrapped into one big critique. It is (easy? Quicker?) to prove (not in a real court of law, but in the court of public opinion) that you don't violate the law and state you have retention policies, but it's a lot harder to prove you don't abuse your volunteers and took the necessary precautions to protect them.

Does the person who is accusing the OTW have a lawyer who works with the laws they are saying OTW violates? Or is it just their personal interpretation of the law that they are concerned that AO3 violates?

I want to give the people who are potentially whistle-blowing the problems with AO3 and the OTW the benefit of the doubt. But I feel a little on edge that these conversations and concerns are wrapped up into one conversation. It makes the OTW look defensive and that it has something to hide to answer the legal concerns first before answering the accusations of horrible misconduct surrounding the volunteers, especially those who are marginalized. Even if they DID have policies/ and took the necessary steps to protect them.

[miaqc1]

The take I kept getting from my parents for a long time was "Teens and Adults should NOT watch 'babies' cartoons and anime!"

Except *Mom* love watching Pixar Movies. She's always impressed by how 3d animation has evolved in kid shows and she did watch Disney movies with me when I was a kid! Sooo... with her its ok but not with me? Also not all cartoons and anime are "for babies." There are adult stuffs out there. Panty and Stocking comes to mind.

shaming and making fun of people for still engaging in fandom activities once they reach a certain age is so embarrassing because why are you giving yourself an expiration date of time you have fun? why are you not-so-indirectly saying you will stop having fun once you reach a certain age? or do you really believe you have to stop engaging in fandom activities and having fun once you turn (x)? do you not think you will, what, live that long and turn that age too? do you think fun will suddenly stop for you and life will all of a sudden lose its meaning once you reach a certain age? how sad to be giving yourself an hourglass and just waiting for your time of having fun to run out.

adults can and should engage in fandom activities if it's what makes them happy.

adults can and should continue doing whatever they like doing as teenagers if it's what makes them happy.

age is just... part of life. it's a part of me and it's a part of you. shaming people for something you will have to go through (unless you don't think you will live that long) is such a loser behavior. indirectly saying you will stop having fun once you reach a certain age isn't the flex you think it is. it doesn't make you look "cool and edgy", it makes you look miserable.

[composeregg]

Am I going to have to make a post abt the otw elections? Because everyone seems to be taking tweets at face value again

(I am a volunteer, everything I say is me speaking for myself, not for the organization, all opinions are mine)

"Don't vote for her we don't want another Tiffany g situation" yeah, we don't. The harassment Tiffany faced was disgusting. The conspiracies that veered wildly into anti-chinese rhetoric were awful.

Looking into Audrey is like.

Yes, she ran republican. In a state where the only hope of winning is going with that party in some places. She is not homophobic or transphobic, though. Before she was bullied into hiding her Twitter she had some pretty pro-queer leftist stuff on there. I dont trust that the other non profit she is affiliated with is great, but that doesn't make her 100% gung-ho pro-censorship.

I wouldn't vote for someone willing to affiliate themselves with that party, and her answers weren't strong, but my god

Stop the fear-mongering. Stop thinking its an infiltration to take down the otw.

This level of harassment is disgusting. Do better. People have gone after her paying job about this.

Everyone is too scared of this idea of evil antis scheming away to take over the organization by.... making it through rounds of applications? Volunteering their time and efforts and energy for at least 6 months? Legally having to reveal their entire name in connection with the organization if they win and thus have this association for the rest of their life?

Stop spreading conspiracy theories. Stop harassing people.

Do fucking better.

[minu-moni]

Sometimes I remember that one motherfucker telling me that “people like me would ruin AO3” because I implied that perhaps allowing people to talk about politics on the Slack made for volunteer work wasn’t the best option and that discussions about Israel/Palestine shouldn’t be happening on a place made for administrating a fanfiction hosting site.

They also got mad at me for saying that the people op was arguing with were genocide deniers and that the situation wasn’t as black and white as people were making it out to be. Lmao.

[kyliafanfiction]

The solution to problem of Christianity (or whatever the majority faith in your country/region/culture) getting special treatment, etc is not to give other religions the same special/protect status. It's to make all religions equally open to mockery or appropriation.

[shrike-dyke]

the thing about ao3/otw is that its leadership consistently take a position they imagine to be "neutral" in the struggles between producers of racist harassment and victims of racist harassment, between producers of csam and victims of csam, and so on

and a ton of people on here who would instantly recognize this positioning as deeply harmful if it were coming from a Cringe Reddit Jordan Peterson Follower instead accept it at face value and regurgitate it because it is coming from Cool Tumblr Fandom Aunts Just Like You

this doesn't mean that everybody who interacts with them in any positive manner is an irredeemable villain or w/e but let's dial back the "last bastion of (queer) free expression" talk, okay?

[volixia669]

Content Warning For: Discussions of CSAM (actual CSAM, not fiction), Organization traumatizing volunteers

Soooooooooooooooooo...Turns out the OTW situation is only getting worse. There's going to be a bunch of "allegedly"s sprinkled throughout btw.

Dreamwidth cofounder known as Rahaeli on twitter has come out with a LENGTHY thread, that did get put on to Dreamwidth, critiquing how OTW has (allegedly) not only mishandled a past attack on users using CSAM, but also how it didn't provide them any support, or implement any policies to protect said volunteers. These volunteers were getting doxxed and Swatted btw.

On top of that, Rahaeli alleges a member of OTW's legal team called her to ask her to take down a twitter thread which included ways to be safe, primarily due to it potentially effecting OTW's PR.

(Rahaeli in the same thread does also critique some of the methods of EndOTWRacism so that may or may not be a problematic factor to some folks.)

Most notably, and worryingly, Rahaeli points out that the current systems and code mean Ao3 & OTW are (allegedly) not compliant with laws pertaining CSAM.

OTW's response?

You can read it above, but it's essentially to deny some of the claims, and not even touch others. It's short, while also being...very strange.

I dunno, but personally I find it gross that their legal team is using a highly specific pixel size in profile pics to "prove" they're not hosting anything illicit despite the fact images can be embedded in fics, including those "orphaned."

(Also can we PLEASE update some of these fandom terms. What the actual fuck is with calling a formally abandoned fic "orphaned")

The response just feels like a "Nuh-uh", which is NOT the kind of response I'd want to see to allegations of this magnitude.

Especially when there are VOLUNTEERS IN THE COMMENTS OF THE RESPONSE CORROBORATING SOME OF THE ALLEGATIONS!

There's a lot of dysfunction going on with OTW.

I hope this year's board election results in some people who will fix the dysfunction, but this seems to run so deep, I'm not certain they'll be able to recover from this.

As for what this means for fandom?

I don't know.

Ao3 was created and run as a last bastian that still allowed all sorts of works, thus preventing "M Fic Sweeps" and the like where NC-17 and/or queer fic were eliminated.

Yet if they can't end racist conduct, if they can't protect their volunteers, then how is this platform supposed to continue?

How can we trust them to stand by fic writers in the future?

[chortu]

Your daily reminder that this is misinformation.

The volunteer was not kicked, the volunteer left themselves. The volunteer was reprimanded for violating the Code of Conduct and provoking people outside the opt-in political channels. OTW did not say anything about Israel being or not being a colonial state, a random volunteer did -- they asked the board to ban saying that Israel is a colonial state. There is no evidence that the Board responded to this request. There is, however, in these same sources, the implication that HR warned the other people involved, but we don't get the details because they (rightfully) did not share with Bjorn what they told the others. The proof is, funnily enough, in these sources people keep linking.

on ao3's current fundraiser

apparently it’s time for ao3’s biannual donation drive, which means it’s time for me to remind you all, that regardless of how much you love ao3, you shouldn’t donate to them because they HAVE TOO MUCH MONEY AND NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH IT.

we’ve known for years that ao3 – or, more specifically, the organization for transformative works (@transformativeworks on tumblr), or otw, who runs ao3 and other fandom projects – has a lot of money in their “reserves” that they had no plans for. but in 2023, @manogirl and i did some research on this, and now, after looking at their more recent financial statements, i’ve determined that at the beginning of 2024, they had almost $2.8 MILLION US DOLLARS IN SURPLUS.

our full post last year goes over the principles of how we determined this, even though the numbers are for 2023, but the key points still stand (with the updated numbers):

when we say “surplus”, we are not including money that they estimate they need to spend in 2024 for their regular expenses. just the extra that they have no plan for

yes, nonprofits do need to keep some money in reserves for emergencies; typically, nonprofits registered in the u.s. tend to keep enough to cover between six months and two years of their regular operating expenses (meaning, the rough amount they need each month to keep their services going). $2.8 million USD is enough to keep otw running for almost FIVE YEARS WITHOUT NEW DONATIONS

they always overshoot their fundraisers: as i’m posting this, they’ve already raised $104,751.62 USD from their current donation drive, which is over double what they’ve asked for! on day two of the fundraiser!!

no, we are not trying to claim they are embezzling this money or that it is a scam. we believe they are just super incompetent with their money. case in point: that surplus that they have? only earned them $146 USD in interest in 2022, because only about $10,000 USD of their money invested in an interest-bearing account. that’s the interest they earn off of MILLIONS. at the very least they should be using this extra money to generate new revenue – which would also help with their long-term financial security – but they can’t even do that

no, they do not need this money to use if they are sued. you can read more about this in the full post, but essentially, they get most of their legal services donated, and they have not, themselves, said this money is for that purpose

i'm not going to go through my process for determining the updated 2024 numbers because i want to get this post out quickly, and otw actually had not updated the sources i needed to get these numbers until the last couple days (seriously, i've been checking), but you can easily recreate the process that @manogirl and i outlined last year with these documents:

otw’s 2022 audited financial statement, to determine how much money they had at the end of 2022

otw’s 2024 budget spreadsheet, to determine their net income in 2023 and how much they transferred to and from reserves at the beginning of 2024

otw’s 2022 form 990 (also available on propublica), which is a tax document, and shows how much interest they earned in 2022 (search “interest” and you’ll find it in several places)  

also, otw has not been accountable to answering questions about their surplus. typically, they hold a public meeting with their finance committee every year in september or october so people can ask questions directly to their treasurer and other committee members; as you can imagine, after doing this deep dive last summer, i was looking forward to getting some answers at that meeting!

but they cancelled that meeting in 2023, and instead asked people to write to the finance committee through their contact us form online. fun fact: i wrote a one-line message to the finance committee on may 11, 2023 through that form, when @manogirl and i were doing this research, asking them for clarification on how much they have in their reserves. i have still not received a response.

so yeah. please spend your money on people who actually need it, like on mutual aid requests! anyone who wants to share their mutual aid requests, please do so in the replies and i’ll share them out – i didn’t want to link directly to individual requests without permission in case this leads to anyone getting harassed, but i would love to share your requests. to start with, here's operation olive branch and their ongoing spreadsheet sharing palestinian folks who need money to escape genocide.

oh, and if you want to write to otw and tell them why you are not donating, i'm not sure it’ll get any results, but it can’t hurt lol. here's their contact us form – just don’t expect a response! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[strangerinaholyplace]

If you haven't heard, otw (in other words ao3) have forced a volunteer to resign because they had "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" as their status on messaging platfrom slack, which otw use for communications.

They were denying that Israel is an apartheid settler state or that the genocide in Gaza is even happening.

This is unforgivable in my opinion, and I have sent a message to otw through their official contact form here, and I suggest you do the same. Below you'll see my message as well, in case you want to copy and paste, or just use it as a template of sorts.

I urge you also not to donate to otw anymore, unless the zionist volunteers and members of otw are removed from their positions and banned from otw.

"I am disgusted and enraged about the treatment of otw volunteer bjorn due to their pro-Palestine message status on slack, and even more so about the fact that zionists are allowed to run free amongst otw/ao3 volunteers, claiming that what Israel is doing in Gaza is not genocide, and claiming that Israel is not an apartheid settler state. As a person who has donated to the otw many times i wish I could revoke my money. But also as a donor I as well as many others demand the otw to resign fully, ban all zionist volunteers, have a written apology to bjorn and all users repudiating zionist actions in Gaza, donate to the Red Crescent to support Palestine, and reinstate bjorn as volunteer. If this is not done I as well as many others will no longer post on ao3, use it, volunteer for it and definitely not donate any more. You should be ashamed of yourselves. "

From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. 🇵🇸

PS. If anyone decides to start talking about ao3 tagging systems or content allowed on the platform on this post you are getting blocked immediately. I dont care about your views on this, and you should think for 2 seconds before putting silly fanfic discourse on the same level as the murder of thousands.

[wildm00re]

nicole reminiscing over her and melissa belting to wicked otw to set, azie reposting the dansen live she did with chyler (and javicia), and now supercorps vs karamels twitter discourse (all over melissa working with chris wood again—her husband btw😭)… WELCOME BACK SUPERGIRL FANDOM!!!!