#patriars

[infiniteanalemma]

Nobility in Baldur's Gate

Edited to add: I never expected my silly, niche post to get as much attention as it has! I'm giving you all forehead smooches! 😚💋 I've gone through to clean up some things up as I've found new information. I also added a list of nobility that I've found in game and other sources to the end of the post. Thanks, y'all! I'm glad I'm not the only one to wonder about this stuff. Good stuff in the reblogs, too!

Baldur's Gate has dug itself deep in my brain, so I apologize to my poor mutuals who didn't follow me for BG3 content getting this onslaught of posts. Please bear with me until my hyperfixation wears off. 🙏

Now, I'll admit up front that I'm no expert in DnD lore*, so if I get things wrong, please feel free to correct me or just add in stuff I may have missed. I'm going off of what I've found in-game and my Google Fu skills.

That said, I do know enough about DnD to remember that Baldur's Gate nobility are called patriars, and that there are only a relative handful of actual patriar families. I was thinking about my "canon" Tav, Velassa, and her background in BG3. She's a modified OC that I plunked in-game during Early Access, so I made her a noble. It was just part of her existing character that I didn't think too deeply about. It was only after I starting playing that it occurred to me to wonder what exactly "a noble" is to a native Baldurian.

That got me digging a little more into the current state of the Baldurian nobility as of BG3. I don't know who--if anyone--needs or wants this, but I put this together for myself and decided to share it for anyone else who might be interested. I realize that this is probably pretty niche and it's rambly and long af, so I'll put it under a cut.

So, for starters, here's a list of all the patriar families, including "fallen" houses that are barely hanging on: Belt, Bormul, Caldwell, Dlusker, Durinbold, Eltan, Eomane, Exeltis, Gist, Guthmere, Hhune, Hlath, Hullhollyn, Irlentree, Jannath, Jhasso, Linnacker, Miyar, Nurthammas, Oathoon, Oberon, Portyr, Provoss, Ravenshade, Rillyn, Sashenstar, Shattershield, Silvershield, Tillerturn, Vammas, Vannath, Vanthampur, and Whitburn

From what I've gathered, Exeltis, Provoss and Ravenshade are all more-or-less destitute. Also, the Szarr family (Cazador's family) were patriars, but were believed to be entirely wiped out. No living descendants makes them a dead house, rather literally. 😏 (No, I'm not sorry.)

Now, we learn that Wyll's father is Ulder Ravengard, the Grand Duke. This brings us to the first point: There are four Dukes, known as the Council of Four, and the Grand Duke's job is to be the tie-breaker.

Traditionally, one of the Dukes is also the highest ranked officer of the Flaming Fist--that's Ravengard, who was a Fist promoted up through the ranks. Wyll tells us that his father was born lower class, and quite a few of the patriars seem to scorn him for that. The other Dukes are Belynne Stelmane, Dillard Portyr (more on him later) and Thalamra Vanthampur (more on her later, too). Of the four, two are patriars: Portyr and Vanthampur. We don't know much about Stelmane's past, except that she was a brilliant businesswoman, politician and--as we find out later--member of the Knights of the Shield. Apparently, you can't buy your way into the patriars, but maybe you can buy your way into being a Duke.

Skipping ahead a bit, when the player shows up to Gortash's coronation, there are a group of mostly patriars sitting in the boxes leading up to the front of the room. I'm listing them by seating arrangement, with box 1 and 2 being the left and right closest to Gortash, and 3 and 4 being farthest. (I don't know what, if anything, the seating arrangements imply. The second box has eight people, compared to four for all the rest.)

Lady Ailis Belt, Baron Callem Bormul, Lord Rugger Shattershield**, and Lady Alia Durinbold**

Lady Ruth Linnacker, Lord Sarken Eomane, Lady Freida Oberon, Lord Raylen Jannath, Lord Myer Ravenshade**, Lady Madeline Whitburn, Lady Beatrice Provoss, and Duke Dillard Portyr

Lady Winstra Hullhollyn, Admiral Peil Hullhollyn, Lord Randolph Vammas, and Lady Eshvelt Guthmere

Lord Milon Tillerturn, Lady Silifrey Sashenstar, Lord Petric Amber**, and Lady Haeril Birch**

Here's some pictures of the nobles sitting together. (Sorry for the terrible quality! I slapped it together for my own reference. 🙈)

The characters marked by ** aren't human, which is interesting because the information I found said all the patriar familes are human except the Shattershields. Myer Ravenshade is listed as human if you examine him, but he has a dwarf model. That might be a mistake, but I'm including him anyway. Alia Durinbold, from a presumably human patriar family, is a wood elf. Again, this could be a mistake, but unless Larian winds up changing it, it could mean that interracial marriages that once may have been looked down on are now becoming more acceptable. Petric Amber is also a wood elf, and Haeril Birch is a high elf.

Those last two are interesting because they are the only ones in the boxes who aren't patriars. If not for them, I'd have assumed the coronation was simply a demonstration for the patriars alone. Their inclusion means this is something else.

Digging around, my conclusion is that all the listed people are members of the Parliament of Peers--a 50 person advisory party to the Council of Four. However, what I found says that it's pretty rare for all 50 to attend meetings, and the usual group is between 20-30. There are exactly 20 named individuals listed, plus a group of unnamed "patriars" standing at the front.

Here they are, for what it's worth:

One thing I noticed here is that most of those listed here are Lord/Lady, but there are three other titles: Duke, Baron and Admiral. I've already talked about the Dukes. Looking into the patriars, the Hullhollyn family are notable for having a fleet of ships, so it makes sense that one of them would be an Admiral. That leaves the Baron.

I couldn't find anything about what it means to be a baron in Baldur's Gate. Going on real-world peerages, a baron/ess is generally the lowest "rank" of nobility. Basically, it's someone who was an official landowner (usually of an "important" bit of land) under the feudal system. Well and good, I suppose, but presumably all the Lords and Ladies of the patriars own land within the city. This particular Baron is also a patriar, but given that one doesn't need to be a patriar to become a Duke (normally a higher peer than a baron), that may not mean anything.

(Apparently, the term "Duke" was originally meant somewhat jokingly. That said, it still carries the weight of a title even if not the conventional one.) We don't see any other titles between Duke and Baron, so what does that mean?

This isn't canon, but my assumption is that it means the Baron owns important land outside of the city. This would make sense for Baron Bormul, given that the Bormul family apparently have investments in silver mines and vineyards. Assuming they own the mines/vineyards, that may make those lands "important" enough to the city for their owner to earn a title. Alternately, the Bormul family also has counterparts in Amn, so maybe baron is an Amnian title that got passed along. That's getting a bit far afield for me, though. 🤷‍♀️

Anyway, among the group at the coronation, pretty much everyone supports Gortash becoming Archduke, with the exception of Lady Sashenstar (an old woman who really isn't too impressed with this commoner) and Duke Portyr, who expresses some hesitation at the whole thing.

Duke Portyr is interesting here. Except for Ravengard (who is thralled and conducting the ceremony), Portyr is the only Duke present. Now, Stelmane is already dead, so that explains her absence. Vanthampur is also missing, which is interesting. Portyr first, though: he was Grand Duke before Ravengard. He's the one who re-instituted (Edited: and originally created!) the Parliament of Peers to make the day-to-day decisions of running the city, and ceded the title of Grand Duke to Ravengard. He's described as being conflict-averse, so it makes sense that he'd go along with Gortash's coronation, even though he's clearly unhappy about it. Also, the current leader of the Fists is also a Portyr, likely still Liara Portyr, the Duke's niece and Ravengard's second-in-command.

Thalamra Vanthampur is an interesting character, too. She's the head of the Vanthampur family, and part of the Descent into Avernus story. Apparently, she's the one who got Ravengard to go to Elturel before it sank to the Hells, intending to take his place as Grand Duke. From what I read, she also conspired with the Dead Three's cults to murder people in a bid to discredit the Flaming Fist. (The murdery bits were undoubtedly left to Bhaal's cult.) We never do find out anything about Thalamra Vanthampur in this game (I assume that's probably cut content). (Edited: She is mentioned in one of the in-game texts as having been killed, which was one of the possible outcomes of Descent into Avernus. Larian chose that as their canon, just like the fate of Elturel and Zariel.)

The only Vanthampur we do meet is Carnelia Vanthampur, who is in the Guildhall and describes herself as "a peer of the Parliament". She's willing to work with either the Guild or the Zhentarim. Nervously of course. Also interesting is that, on the Bloodstained Parchment hit list, is a Varri Vanthampur, whose gravestone you can find in Candulhallow's Tombstones shop, reading: "Varri Vanthampur. Unwanted in life, welcomed in death."

Interesting, hm?

Also on that hit list is Fridrik Hhune. The Hhunes apparently have links to the Knights of the Shield, from what I looked up--the same group the Emperor led with Stelmane. The only Hhunes we meet in-game are Blaise and Gheris Hhune, two of the werewolves in Cazador's ballroom who are brothers according to the dev notes. With them is another werewolf of a different patriar family, Duver Rillyn. This suggests Cazador has been going after members of patriar families, which sort of fits with what we know about his plans. We really don't find anything else out about them except that they consider Cazador to be their master and Astarion says they're new.

We also can talk to a Flaming Fist who mentions that Hurlbut Hhune is the father of Henrietta Hhune, who used to be secretly engaged to the Fist in question, only for her father to decide to arrange her to marry fellow patriar Derque Rillyn, who the Fist describes as "a major arsehole."

That conversation is interesting for a few reasons. For one, it tells you that arranged marriages within the patriar are a thing. Also, this Fist is a Manip (essentially a Sergeant) who can't ask the other Fists for help because "the Fists don't mess with wealthy patriars, they've got the Watch to back them up." That's aligned with what Devella can also tell you: "There are patriars on the murder target list. I'm oathbound to secure them first, so I'll be heading to the Upper City next." If you say that the Fist should protect everyone: "Not from around here, are you? We're in Baldur's Gate - this is just how things work."

This brings me back to my original issue: what is a Baldurian noble? The patriars are canonically nobles, of course, and they're undoubtedly seen as the "most important" of the nobility. From there, it's not much of a stretch to say that anyone who has earned the title of Duke is now a noble, even if they aren't patriars. I'd go so far as to say anyone on the Parliament of Peers (and their family by association) is a noble^, given that non-patriars Petric Amber and Haeril Birch are considered Lord and Lady. The information I found about that is that there are approximately twelve non-patriar members. If Amber and Birch are two of them, that leaves another unnamed 10.

^Edited: Looking at the dates, I realized that the Parliament of Peers is a very recent change to Baldurian governance. Duke Portyr originally created it after the three other Dukes on the Council of Four were assassinated. It was clearly meant as a temporary measure, but my guess is that the patriars liked having more official say. Not to mention the non-patriars who managed to get a seat. This has all happened within even the youngest of Tav/Urges' lifetimes.

Personally, I'd also assume that branch families of the patriars probably also count as nobility. By branch family, I mean those that marry out of the main line but whose ancestry stems from a patriar family. From what I've seen by naming conventions, Baldur's Gate seems to use patronmyic lineage--ancestry is generally passed to the sons, and wives take their husband's surname. So, if a daughter marries out of the family, she'd no longer be a part of her father's family lineage, but still would be considered nobility. These branch families likely still maintain powerful influence and connections from marrying into wealth, which would make them a good political/financial choice of marriage alliance, despite no longer having the main branch patriar family name. These families are also probably the ones most likely to find a place on the Parliament, too, but likely have to jockey for position if their "representative" dies (or otherwise leaves) and a new opening in the Parliament is created.

If you've read this far, as a treat you can have some crappy close-up portraits of the nobles at Gortash's coronation, grouped together in their respective boxes. 😚

* For what it's worth, I'd count myself as a casual DnD player. I have some knowledge of DnD--I've played BG1 and 2, Planescape: Torment, along with some general cultural osmosis. I've had friends who played the tabletop version, but for one reason or another, I've never played it myself.

[y-rhywbeth2]

It just occurred to me that there might be a way to make a headcanon to tie in the lore of Orin's dagger (that Bhaal was killing in back alleys in the place where Baldur's Gate would someday stand, despite him predating the existence of alleys in the area) with the lore from Lord of the End of Everything (he's from High Netheril), and also explain what the Undercity is and where it came from.

So High Netheril was composed of enclave cities, which were enchanted to fly. When Karsus and Jergal wrecked the Weave those went smashing straight into the ground, leaving behind only refugees who managed to get out one way or another (Bhaal and Bane apparently amongst them). The empire of Netheril was focused over what is now the Anauroch Desert, but some enclaves floated elsewhere, such as Ythryn, which was situated far North in the Icewind Dale. At least some cities, such as Ythryn and Undrentide, are now subterranean, buried beneath the earth/sand/ice.

Bhaal's mortal life was apparently spent in the flying city called Rdiuz - if that city was flying over the spot where Baldur's Gate would one day be built, crashed and was buried, was forgotten except for by, say, its former spymaster/government hitman turned god... he would technically have been murdering in the back alleys of a city before the Gate.

There is the question of why Bhaal has a temple in the ruins of a city that died before his ascension, but that wouldn't necessarily stop him sending followers down there to build one/hijack an old temple of Jergal when civilisation kicked off in the area and that smuggling hub that will one day be a major city developed.

So Orin, Durge, and before them, (kind of) Sarevok, are/were living in the long-dead forgotten city of their father and ancestors in this headcanon. Hey, some of those undead haunting the place might be their grandparents! Or great-grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins... fully mortal half-siblings? Step-parents?

[anderstrevelyan]

Can we talk about how Gortash commissioned a literal sculpture of how Bane looked in their first dream visit, and displays it prominently in his office??

*This is a bust of the god Bane as he first appeared to Gortash in dreams, and was then described to a Rivington sculptor.*

[flymmsy]

Gortash Sex Party WIP

Proof that the Gortash Sex Party fic is alive and well, just slow going. Here's a sneak peek! Not explicit (the final fic will be very very explicit), but mentions of sex.

The Dark Urge sat across the desk from Gortash, as had become their routine. They would often sit and watch as the Banite scribbled furiously upon parchment after parchment, his brows furrowed in concentration, breaking only to raise his gaze in response to one of Durge’s more clever comments. Tonight, however, it was Durge’s turn to knit their brow, their gaze sweeping over the man before them as if he were a relic in the Hall of Wonders.

“Something the matter, dearest Bhaalspawn?” Gortash did not look up from his papers. Instead, he merely quirked an eyebrow in Durge’s direction, the hint of a smirk at the corner of his lips.

“No,” Durge quickly replied, flicking their attention back to the dagger held lazily in their hand. They inspected it with great care, the glint of steel in the light now suddenly the most interesting thing in the room. The longer their gaze stayed on the weapon, the heavier the air in the room became. When a few moments had past, Durge looked back up to see a smirk now fully blooming across Gortash's face.

An exasperated sigh escaped Durge as they straightened themselves, clearing their throat before they spoke.

“Some interesting rumors have reached the Bhaal Temple, lately.”

“How curious,” Gortash was quick to respond, but his attention remained on his work, “I wouldn’t take Bhaal as one for idle gossip.”

“Regarding you, actually.”

At that, the Banite finally put down his quill, slowly bringing his gaze up to meet Durge’s own. He held it for a moment, smirk still clear as day, before leaning back in his chair.

“Go on.”

“They speak of rather interesting…parties,” At that, Durge shifted in their seat, dipping their eyes to focus on Gortash’s gauntlet now resting on the arm of his chair, “held here, at your manor.”

The gauntlet lifted as Gortash shifted his weight. His chin came to rest in his own palm as gilded fingers curled against his lip, his index finger bringing one claw to rest against his temple. Durge’s eyes followed the movement, the last claw locking them back into Gortash’s gaze. The Banite nodded once, prompting Durge to continue.

“Interesting as in…” Durge sighed, “…of an intriguing nature…”

Gortash raised his eyebrows, shaking his head innocently as one claw continued to trace the line of his lips, “I’m afraid I don’t know what you mean, dear Bhaalspawn.”

“Sex,” The words escaped Durge in an embarrassing burst. They cleared their throat again, tempering the rising heat at their neck, “an evening of carnal indulgence.”

“Ah,” Gortash nodded, seeming to consider the words for a moment. Then, in one fluid motion, he dipped his head and returned his attention to his parchment, his expression otherwise one of disinterest.

Durge could feel the deep lines between their own brows as they watched Gortash continue to scratch away. Had he heard them? The silence made them uncomfortable. It wasn't the sex itself that concerned them, sex was nothing. Well, everything and nothing. But the thought of Gortash...he was their business partner, and thinking - hearing - about him having --

“Well they are correct, of course.”

Durge was grateful that Gortash’s eyes were still on his paper as surprise flashed across their face. A few moments passed in silence, Durge trying and failing to process the response. A sigh escaped the Banite, accompanied by a rather large scratch across the parchment, the sound stirring Durge.

“Ah,” was all that escaped their lips, echoing his earlier reply. At that, Durge could see the smallest crack in the aloof façade that had settled upon Gortash.

“Does this concern you?” Gortash gathered the papers on his desk before lazily tossing them aside.

“I had dismissed the rumors as some Banite ritual,” Durge began, now uneasy as Gortash’s full attention returned to them. He leaned back in his chair once more, but this time his expression was perfectly measured.

“But the report,” Durge continued, “the report says it is a mix of people throughout the city. Banites, patriars, priestesses…”

Gortash had steepled his hands but flexed them in a gesture for Durge to continue.

“It seemed…uncharacteristically risky of you.”

At that, a smile split across Gortash’s face. His voice was smooth but full of amusement, “You’d be surprised at how discreet people will be for their own pleasure.”

“But the rumors reached me,” Durge retorted.

“That they did,” Gortash held their gaze for a beat, and Durge felt the heat rising again within them. Just as Durge was about to break the silence, Gortash spoke again, “I suppose I’ll have to find that pesky leak.”

Durge attempted to retreat with a shrug, turning their attention back to their knife, but Gortash was quick on their heels.

“You seem troubled, dear Bhaalspawn.”

Durge rolled their eyes, eager to be done with this conversation, but turned back to Gortash regardless. They hesitated, searching for the right words, “I just didn’t take you for one to mix business with pleasure.”

When Gortash’s grin turned razor sharp, they realized they had found the wrong words.

“Oh, you are quite mistaken,” Gortash’s eyes were truly alight now, “I delight in mixing business with pleasure.”

“Yes, well,” Durge swallowed hard, “I just thought you should know…about the rumors…”

“How thoughtful,” Gortash cooed mockingly, eliciting a snarl from Durge. They were increasingly feeling like a mouse caught in a cat’s claws. The mockery broke them, prompting them to rise from their seat and slam their hands down on the desk.

“I don’t like being played with, Gortash.”

“No? A shame, really,” Gortash quipped but tempered his smirk, rising from his own chair, “However, I’m afraid you have reminded me of a rather important engagement I must keep.”

Durge’s head swiveled incredulously as Gortash circled them to move toward the door.

“One of my attendants will see you out,” the Banite flicked his wrist back in acknowledgement as he departed the room.

Durge seethed in his wake, their hands curling into the wood of the desk. Gortash had made their blood properly boil now. Someone, a Banite servant, called to them from the door frame.

***

“Are you sure I can’t offer you a –”

“No,” Durge allowed the second of Gortash’s servants to lead them out, now trailing blood in their wake. When they arrived at the garden door, the servant reached out one trembling arm, a delicate envelope in their hand.

“The master wished I present you with this,” the servant flinched as Durge took the envelope from them, quickly scurrying down the hall now that their duty had been fulfilled.

Durge flipped the envelope over, nose crinkling at the distinct smell of vanilla and rosewood. They retrieved their dagger, wiping it first on their leg, and popped the elegant seal.

Lord Enver Gortash requests the pleasure of your company at his upcoming salon…

[forcedhesitation]

crazy how he just ignores everyone else and speaks directly to wyll. it's like wyll is like one of the most important characters in this game, or something.

[diantha]

ALL im saying is that we cannot see gortash's upper or forearms so there's no reason to think that he doesnt have tattoos. thats all im saying. thats all

[oathtorn]

// sometimes I think about how many times in bg3 you get conflicts that don't have an objectively "best" outcome. I think about freeing the 7000 vampires, for example. Freeing them is the ethical thing to do, because they are all innocent victims, but it remains true that leaving thousands of vampires loose, even in the underdark, is a bad bad idea. Not only are they traumatized people, but they're predators who have only their instincts to help them survive in an unfamiliar land that isn't exactly bountiful in terms of wildlife. If they don't do well, they'll die or be slaughtered, and if they do they'll ruin entire communities or ecosystems, depending on whether they feed on people or animals.

[mtg-cards-hourly]

Patriar's Seal

Only a fool ignores a letter bearing the official mark of a patriar family.

Artist: Kamila Szutenberg TCG Player Link Scryfall Link EDHREC Link

[little-tyrant-gortash]

You should kill them before they end up killing you. Be careful Gortash

"They are my ally. I will not kill them. And while your concern for my well-being is appreciated, I do not require it. With this in mind. Get out."

[killerpancakeburger]

Minthara: *frequently reminds you that she's evil (e.g. supports slavery, actively encourages you to dump your current partner to date her instead, etc*

Also Minthara: *has the best sense of humor of all the companions IMO*

*comes from a matriarchy and shows it*

*is a very badass and ruthless woman*

Me: Urgh, how am I supposed to not adore her?

[wakinguponsaturday]

there's a post-game AU after Wyll and Karlach strike out on their own and manage not to die or get subsumed into the cult over the next few months while Percy et al solve the main story. they break Mizora's contract, successfully make it back to Avernus before Karlach explodes, repair her engine, and then return to Baldur's Gate victorious! only to find it puppeteered by Sharran cultists, a daywalking vampire lord, the drow paladin that slaughtered the grove, and the chosen of the god of ambition in all but name.

time to crack some skulls

[thats-a-lot-of-cortisol]

I know this has been ragged on a million times but I gotta

[anderstrevelyan]

Peace is finally teaching Scrivener that Bhaalist and tenday and patriar are all words and it should let me live my life

[flymmsy]

Those who do not believe Enver Gortash, Chosen of Bane, could be a sub do not know just how tyrannical subs can be. They can twist their doms around their little finger in a millisecond.

[coreene]

Looking at Bg's patriar families list for Lorelei's background and found this:

Eomane—Surprisingly enough, this family owned whale- and fish-oil manufactories along with the perfumery that produced the most in-demand scents in all of Baldur's Gate. sauce

I agree. That is surprising. Fish to perfumes? xD

[modwyr]

also why is everyone bar lae’zel and karlach so weird about wyll becoming duke? this game does not have enough of an interest in politics to justify this lol