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brydeswhale · 2 years ago

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My Giant Anti-Jonsa Hate Post, AKA why a person might not ship Jonsa other than hating Sansa :P

I'm warning you ahead of time, this is mostly me rambling. I'm not smart. Lots of smart people you can read, go read them.

So, I've noticed this tendency amongst some Jonsa shippers to sort of dismiss any criticism as Sansa-hate. Sometimes they are actually correct, some people only read ASOIAF in order to see Jon as a typical hero and any female character as simply the reward Jon gets for being a hero, which is so weird. There is a similar feeling that the biggest reward a female character can get is Jon's dick, so, um, yeah.

Having said that, I have a lot of reasons not to ship Sansa with Jon outside of how my ego feeds into my reading. I have read pics with them as the pairing, tbh, if you're a Sansa fan you kind of get pulled into it just because it's so hard to find ANY fics where Sansa gets treated decently that I just treat Jon in those fics as an original character.

I will now list my non-jonsa feels, in no particular order.

I do not believe the text supports it.

A lot of smart people have dug through the text and pointed to what they believe are clues. I'm not going to go through all of these because some of them are, IMO, a reach so far that the proponents have hired a gibbon to do the reaching.

One of those that kind of makes me super perplexed is the whole Jonnel/Sansa thing. Shippers will point to that as some kind of sign that their ship will sail, but honestly, I do not think so. Or at least, I hope it's not a portent of Jonsa.

Jonnel Stark and his plot line with the original Sansa seem to have more in common with the modern story of Alys Karstark and her flight from her uncle and cousin, who attempted to usurp her claim to Karhold by forcibly marrying her.

That is to say, it's a dark, sad story, made all the worse by the fact that Sansa eventually died, and she and Jonnel never had issue. In fact, Jonnel didn't have kids with his second wife, either. Possibly divine punishment for usurping and marrying his niece, IMO.

Most of the other "Jonsa" foreshadowing, I'm sorry to say, seems similar to that, basically. Either it's a sort of retelling of a completely different event happening in the present, or it's a sort of a weird, long reach. Like the idea that the comet is meant to foreshadow Jonsa, which is, honestly, so weird it's laughable, or pointing to times that Jon has complimented Sansa's looks. Some people even try to fit the Bael the Bard story to Jonsa.

It doesn't seem to fit with the how the text treats incest, in my opinion.

Much is made of the show's revelation that Jon and Sansa, despite being raised as and considering each other siblings, are biologically cousins, what with the revelation that Rhaegar kidnapped a teenaged Lyanna Stark and murdered her through reproductive abuse. For a lot of people this makes the incestuous aspect of the text "not count"(which is annoying for other reasons I will discuss later).

I just don't think "they're actually cousins" really works here, either, though.

GRRM sort of seems to use incest as kind of a shorthand for corruption. The Targaryens are the main example, their inbreeding a symbol of their incapacity as humans, and Craster is a giant screaming red flag but there are other incestuous marriages that seem to operate as symbols for the people involved, most notably the elder Lannister and Stark marriages.

The marriage of Tywin Lannister is an interesting sort of backdrop for the Lannister family as a whole. Joanna is often regarded, in both fandom and the series itself, as a sort of softening influence, a better version of Cersei, the true queen of Casterly Rocks, whose relationship with Tywin was very normal and healthy.

However, when examining Tywin Lannister's serious case of narcissism, I find it very unlikely that he would be capable of anything resembling normal in a marriage. It seems likely to me that his love of Joanna was more likely based on the same thing Cersei and Jaime's relationship was based on, AKA a damaged, narcissistic monstrosity. The marriage, IMO, was based on the fact that Tywin was attempting to emulate the elitist principles of the Targaryens. Only a Lannister could match a Lannister, in other words.

Then we examine the children of this incestuous union. I don't think its a coincidence that Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion are as fucked up as they are. The example they have of a relationship is fucked up and incestuous, so it wasn't surprising that the twins emulated it. And Tyrion being Tyrion is also not shocking. Joanna may have demanded a place for him, but how much of that was motivated by love, and how much by a similar narcissism to Tywin and Cersei's, the idea of the child as the extension of the self.

But, @brydeswhale , I hear you say, because I have audio processing disorder, what about the Starks?

Well, tbh, I'm pretty sure the Lyarra/Rickard thing being incestuous was an afterthought, another way to mirror the Lannisters, but I do not think they're intended to be an example of incest done right. Rickard had some pretty weird obsessions of his own, if certain people are to be believed, and Lyarra is a near non-entity.

And while their kids seem to be, well, less fucked up than the Lannisters, it's still worth noting that two of the four are dead, of the two survivors, one dedicated himself to ensuring his family's full isolation from the rest of the country and the other joined a penal colony full of slave soldiers dedicated to what amounts to a border patrol that, whatever its origins, seems intent on enforcing an economic and cultural barrier to a random set of ethnic groups beyond the Wall, so good job there.

And even when Brandon and Lyanna were alive, well, no fault to Lyanna, she seems like a good kid, but Brandon was apparently an antagonistic dick and, well, he doesn't seem to have been very respectful of women.

Incest almost seems like a code in GRRM for "something is very wrong here and it won't end well, even for the innocents" and I just don't see him choosing to go against that.

As an incest survivor, the lightness with which the Jonsa fandom treats that aspect of it is messed up.

I don't tend to talk too much about my past as a CSA survivor, but yeah, there is it is. It kind of weirds me out, DOESN'T trigger me, just weirds me out, how casually the ASOIAF fandom treats incest bc, um, yeah, its not really casual. I feel like GRRM treats it with a great deal of gravitas, but fandom kind of skips over it, which is weird.

The "Real" siblings stance is obnoxious

There exists, within fandom, a tendency to devalue families outside the biological family.

It's not specific to ASOIAF, don't get me wrong. It's the same thing that had people giggling over Thor's defensive "he's adopted" or talking about which Robin is "the real son". It also lends itself to pairing in those fandoms based on those same ideas. It's not incest, after all, if they're not really related?

This might seem like small potatoes to some people, but the problem with this is that it's also a problem outside fandom, and it's something I've dealt with my entire life.

See, my family also isn't "real" according to this rule.

I have foster siblings, step siblings, half siblings, so on and so forth. I have siblings I'm almost completely alienated from, siblings I love more than life itself, and siblings who are ex-siblings, pining for the fjords, kicked the bucket, bought the farm, blah, blah, blah.

So to hear people talk about how Jon and Sansa aren't real siblings because of the complexity of how their relationship came to be, how close they are, whether or not the moon was full when they met, is actually kind of hurtful.

It tells me something about the people using this trope and what they subconsciously think of my family. How "real" we are to them, and how much we matter. It kind of makes me think we don't really matter, that because we don't share DNA, we don't count.

Also:

Jon is one of my least favourite characters and Sansa can do better.

To Be VERY VERY clear:

I'm not saying don't ship them, don't read it, etc, etc. If you want to, it's up to you. Like I said, I read it sometimes, just because it's so ubiquitous. I have plenty of pairings that other people might hate, or think are immoral, etc. These are just my feelings, tbh.

I just think dismissing all criticism or even plain distaste for this ship down to not liking one character or another, or whatever, is kind of messed up. There are lots of valid reasons not to like a ship, and it's worth considering all of them.

#anti-jonsa #anti jonsa #sansa stark #asoiaf #game of thrones

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cannotescape · 3 years ago

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thank you for asking for my thoughts, anon! I hope you're ready for the ride because I can't promise everything will make sense (just like the show itself tbf).

I don't really know how to answer this... My feelings aren't completely settled yet. Right after I finished, I think I was kinda relieved? I was fully prepared to hate the season but it wasn't the case, there were still plenty to love and I was glad to have my girls back. The more I think about it though... the more I'm thinking about how 10 times better this season would have been if the boys weren't there lmao. So yeah, I'm kinda perplexed with most of the choices made this season, and frustrated because gdi, it could have been so much better.

I. Negative points

The boys

Let's get this out of the way. I surprisingly didn't hate the boys or their scenes. But that never was the point, was it? What I feared was them reducing the girls' screentime and not adding anything to the story. Sadly, those fears were founded. I didn't hate the boys. I just found them boring and uninteresting, especially compared to the girls.

And yeah, you could argue that's the point the show is trying to make lol: uplifting the girls' story by... adding uninteresting boys... Doesn't sound like good writing to me but whatever.

Worst of all, I feel like the boys plot lines weren't uninteresting, but it would have felt 100% more engaging if the girls had them instead (minus the sexual assault part). The boys frankly didn't have time to get developped so I think it was a lose-lose situation anyway. Their struggles also paled in comparison to the girls.

2. Wasted opportunities

The girls' plot lines did suffer from the presence of the boys. Some characters were cruelly underused like Dot. Her only storylines this season was... her birthday, reading a book and learning to relax, and even that wasn't very well done.

Toni wasn't fully fleshed out in season 1 but I wasn't whining too much about it at the time, hoping to learn more about her in season 2. It obviously didn't happen. Her main narrative points revolve around her relationship with Shelby and being protective of Martha... The fact that she barely interacts with other girls is very telling imo. Her issues are completely side-lined. Yeah, her lack of worthiness is brought up, and immediately forgotten after Martha of all people gives her "words of encouragement". I have trouble thinking another girl couldn't have given her another perspective and that Martha didn't tell her this shit 10 times before. Also, wouldn't have it be nice if this lack of worthiness was the reason Shelby and Toni broke up? Instead of some far fetched reason?

The more it goes on, the more Toni doesn't seem to exist outside her relationship with Shelby and Martha. And this is made even more obvious by the fact that Shelby has had pretty good storylines this season. There's the confederate shit, of course, but there's also her faith, her party organizing skills, her escape rooms prowess, her guilt over Becca... So much good shit and the only thing we learn about Toni is that she likes weddings and steamy romance books lol.

Generally speaking, the girls cruelly lacked screentime to match the development they got in season 1. We had some meaningful conversations and I appreciated them but some narrative choices were pretty astounding to me. Season 1 was sometimes guilty of doing weird time jumps and of barely mentioning important events, like when Martha almost died in episode 6... Did they find the second med? No one was mad at Leah after that? huh okay. Well, season 2 does it even more often: Leah's attempt to her life only leads to her being monitored and even that was dropped pretty fast. We didn't see Shelby being triggered by this when... hello???? It's a big part of her trauma and we even learn that she also had suicidal thoughts at some point. Also, does Toni even know about Becca? Does Shelby know more about Toni's family situation??? Do the girls know about Rachel's eating disorder? God

The problem I see is that season 1 teased a lot of good stuff and season 2 barely delivered on those. Wasted opportunities again and again and again. Shelby feeling uneasy about being out and coming to term with it could have been a great thing to see. I could even have been a tension inducing plotline in the bunker: the girls having to hide Shelby and Toni's relationship to the interviewer and/or Shelby freaking out when she realized they have been observed all this time with their intimate moments being invaded/tainted. Instead we got Martha walking in on them and her interaction with Toni didn't feel satisfying. Also, no reaction from Dot whatsoever lol....

Another example: for almost two seasons, the show teased that Martha could be dead or seriously unwell and the only thing we get is a half-assed reunion between her and Toni like nothing happened, and it was only shown because Gretchen wanted to make a point during her ovary contest with Leah... Speaking of reunions lol...... I don't even know what to say about the bunker reunions despite: unsatisfying. The Leah/Shelby reunion in season 1 felt way more meaningful and potent than whatever we got.

Another disappointment: I wish the girls were working together to defeat Gretchen instead of Leah doing it solo. We were all speculating about the girls playing Gretchen and co. during their interviews and turns out only Leah and maybe Fatin hid things from them. What about the anaphalyctic shock? Wasn't it planned after all?

And the breakup.... As an angst connoisseur, I was really excited to see how they would tackle this. I wanted something truly painful. Sadly, the breakup wasn't earned imo. They teased it pretty well during the interviews in season 1. It seemed personal. It seemed like both Toni and Shelby hurt each other in the process. Or again, it could have just been them playing the interviewers and protecting Shelby's "secret". Instead of that, we got a... can we even call that a breakup scene? It lacked tension, it lacked real motive, it lacked character development (Toni and her abandonment issues??? helloooo????). I think it could have been done well if they had more time. But it was just rushed and out of place after all this fluff. Show me more disagreement and/or suspicion before the big breakup! Show me Shelby starting to act sketchy... Deliberately hiding things about the island...

But maybe this is gonna be a "light breakup", easily resolved with them quickly getting back together, before the big betrayal breakup. The wilds liked to deceive us like this in the past (see: the "wrong" conferate in season 1… who actually became the real operative in season 2).

3. The experiment

As an introduction, I've always thought that the experiment was the weakest part of the show (I even wrote a monster commentary about it) and season 2 proved me right.

This is kinda ironic because... this show sounds like it wants to be a plot driven show without realizing it is a character driven show. I was very doubtful of the addition of the boys from the start because it was sell as "a necessity for the plot" thing. It seems like it was just an excuse. Indeed, the experiment is BARELY mentionned in this season! Yes, we get a few lines about how Gretchen wants the boys to fail so hard and that they're actually ahead of the girls. We learn at the end that the boys actually failed? But it was never explained why? And seemed like it only came from things the confederate did anyway so... But whatever, it's not like the experiment made sense in the first place.

By making the boys and the girls together the "third control group", the show keeps demonstrating it knows nothing about sociology. But it also leads me to think that the great lesson of it all is gonna be "boys and girls need each other to create a perfect society" and please... This is not a sure thing, of course, but considering how the girls have directly been affected by patriarchy and shit, if this is the answer the show wants to offer, then... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, I really don't want to see the boys and the girls interact. Absolutely not.

II. Positive points (I did say I enjoyed this season, didn't I?)

The thing is... the show excels when it goes back to its roots: mainly exploring young women's struggles and their interactions with each other. So pretty much all the girls' scenes were fucking delectable to watch. The writers continued to explore different duos or trios and it often works! A few favourite of mine this season were Rachel and Leah, and Fatin and Shelby (they play off each other surprisingly well).

MVP of this season was Rachel for me. What a fucking good character. I loved her in every fucking scene, god and her character arc was the best of all of the girls, imo. Seeing her mourn Nora was excruciating, especially in episode 1. Speaking of Nora, you could actually FEEL her absence in the group dynamic and that's a pretty fucking huge accomplishment. I don't only mean the few references to her we get here and there. In some of the group scenes, I actually caught myself looking around to see if she was there.

I'm personally very happy she's alive. It doesn't make Rachel's mourning fruitless but... I guess it could become a little frustrating down the line. We'll see. Not a fan of the reveal though.... Why do it in the middle of the season with 0 mention of her during the rest of it? huh

Random things that I liked:

I loved seeing Shelby and Toni happy together. I would have liked the show to be more tentative and cautious about it but I'm nitpicking.

Fatin and Shelby figuring the whole thing out.

the music is still a yes, although it didn't hit as much as in season 1. I was so excited when I heard the first few notes of "Vois sur ton chemin" though. Nostalgia! And really fucking unexpected

Humour! We had some pretty fantastic one liners from Fatin, Shelby continuing to be hilarious, Leah putting her hand on Fatin's head and saying "with love", the music stopping after Leah blows the flower at Toni, Gretchen jolting when Henri started singing… many laughing out loud moments this season.

Questions:

Is Shelby the new operative? I know it's heavily implied but... you never know with this show. Also, when did she become the operative? She was probably turned after her anaphylactic shock, but - and I know it's a stretch - there's a possibility she was in on it since the beginning. I don't think she's another double agent though and that she's playing Gretchen. It would feel cheap after Leah's storyline this season.

Nora??? Hello???? What is gonna happen with her? Is Leah gonna tell Rachel that her sister is alive?

Fatin, Shelby and Leah have to share with the others what they know, right?

Why did Shelby shave her head?

Shelby doesn't limp anymore? How long did they stay in the bunker? Do Gretchen ever plan on sending them back to their parents?

What did Josh tell Gretchen that made her so happy?

Which french song is Sarah Streicher gonna choose next season?

Will Toni get a real character arc in season 3?

Are Leah and Fatin gonna smooch?

Now, tell me YOUR thoughts, anon! Do you share any of what I said or was it just complete nonsense?

#the wilds #the wilds spoilers #I... realize that the negative outweighs the positive here #but having 16 characters were a mistake and season 2 proved that #consequently even though I loved the girls parts it felt frustrating sometimes because fan predictions were often better than what we got #mine

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sawyerexe · 22 days ago

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Absolutely, Im in complete agreement. Especially because there is so little reminder regularly that this is a child and not an animal visually, like you're saying. It's easy to dehumanize Quinn himself when that's all we see - is "happy pet and owner."

I would even say more so than the other Experiments, due to the fact that he can't talk. Harley leaned into that regression, and made an animal out of him, which is why the dynamic in and of itself can and feels so yucky - I don't blame you that it gives you the ick. Especially in contrast to just how "lighthearted" some of the depictions are.

If it's presented without that context, it seems ... infantilizing. Not of the characters, but of the situation. No one wants to believe that Harley can both find his own version of attachment with his experiments but that doesn't make it good or healthy. It still hurts Quinn. It's still is a power display from Harley. He can be humanized WITHOUT dumbing down what he has done to the kids, especially Quinn. Which sometimes is why I DO wish there was more visual indication of just how horrific this kind of thing is. But I digress -

I hear you there - that is a subject I find myself a bit perplexed to approach in any actual tangible fashion, mostly because It DOES remove their agency as people/characters and suggests the brain can no longer develop after a certain point, in certain situations. As someone who's entering medical research, that not only sits with me as factually wrong, but it also frustrates me from a humanitarian level. Not even for any shipping reasons. To say Doey hasn't matured or developed at all in 10 years, in taking care of the other kids, ect feels blind and obtuse. I feel the same way about Poppy, Mommy, ect. In Yarnbys case, I am sure his mental development looks massively different. It's heavily implied some experiments experience extreme brain damage, sure. But like you said - it's a conversation that lends itself to also the shipping justifications which is why it can be so frustrating to explore. I have a thought it was implemented just to control the shipping "environment" but from a writing point of view it's frustrating. It makes the context even worse imo.

Gonna show up on your doorstep with weird human flesh cat body horror experiment Yarnaby

I wonder if people would still like Dr Sawyer or make fanworks of Yarnaby being his pet the same way if the Poppy Playtime monsters weren’t designed to resemble cute kids toys? If the monsters’ appearance was more apparent that they were children twisted and disfigured into inhuman shapes by a mad scientist who found joy in their suffering

Like,this is literally what Sawyer did to Yarnaby and several other children of his own free will

#ramble

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chubbybeaver77 · 5 years ago

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LILY OF FINAL FANTASY VII REMAKE: ALL SCENES MASTER ANALYSIS [2/2]

If you have not read PART 1, I recommend that you read PART 1 first. Thank you!

PART 1: LILY - AERITH GAINSBOROUGH - LIFE SYMBOL -THE FATE OF AERITH

PART 2: LILY - THE REUNION FLOWER

I saw people fighting about which characters Reunion belongs to. Reunion is a wholesome concept, another central theme of Remake imo, so why can’t it be shared between characters? I know Final Fantasy VII is dark, but I am glad there are 2 bright themes brought in Remake: one wholesome (Reunion) and one poetic (I will talk about it some other time). I really love the positive energy the Reunion Theme brought into the Remake. It is such a bless for our life to be able to reunite with our beloveds.

This part will be my take for each scene, since this topic has been heavily discussed, you might have encountered some ideas here and there.

The first Reunion when Aerith gave Cloud the flower is Cloud and Aerith’s Reunion. It’s their true Reunion in FF7 Compilation after 23 years, a true Reunion to fans because Aerith is still alive here.

It is also a message from Aerith to Cloud that they would reunite later after this event. She was very likely to have some knowledge about that.

Narratively, it could also mean an indirect Reunion between Aerith and Zack because Cloud reminded her of Zack and this is their first time meeting. They don’t know each other yet.

I am quite against the idea of Aerith travelling back in time, so no Cloud and Aerith’s Reunion because of time travel. I am against that idea because during the Evergreen Park talk and ending of Remake, Aerith’s sadness for Zack was still very raw. She was clearly disappointed and upset. In my opinion, if she was going back in time to fix things, she would be more accepting and at peace with what was going on like her portrayal in FF7 Advent Children.

When Cloud gave Tifa the flower, it was the Reunion of Cloud and Tifa. They were separated for 7 years from Tifa’s memory and 5 years from Cloud's memory. The story began when the 2 childhood friends were reunited as Nojima called it in the FF7R Insider series. Notice Cloud took the flower from his heart’s place and gave it to Tifa. Heart is a symbol of someone’s real self. Just like the message that Cloud will remember Aerith forever in his heart, this is a message that from his heart, True Cloud was for Tifa.

Surrounded by Reunion Flowers, Cloud and Aerith were reunited in the church as she predicted earlier

Aerith was pleased to know where her flower ended up. She was happy for Cloud and Tifa’s Reunion. Notice that she learnt about this before the resolution event, where if you had Aerith’s scene, she told Cloud “it was not real”. She might understand there was something going on between Cloud and Tifa right here.

This is a foreshadowing of True Cloud and Tifa’s Reunion when he gained his memory. Reunion was mentioned in Tifa’s Resolution Scene. The Reunion Flowers was placed next to a stream in one shot here on purpose. Lifestream - Reunion. In a recent interview, Hamaguchi, co-director of Remake directly stated this stream was connected to Lifestream. You can read more about True Cloud and Tifa’s Reunion foreshadowing HERE where I explained in detail why Reunion Flower here is about Cloud and Tifa, not anyone else.

In this sequence with Leslie, his fiancée left him the pendant with the Reunion Flower. She said it was just a dream. Was there a message? Message: We will meet again.

You see Cloud’s perplexed expression here. The dream was a reference to Aerith’s Resolution Scene. The message was a reference to Aerith’s message to Cloud. Cloud was perplexed because he realized that Aerith had been trying to send him a message the whole time. There were also a lot of other weird things happening around her so Cloud now understood Aerith knew things and wasn’t straightforward. He looked sad and sorry that he didn’t get it earlier and maybe could have prevented her from being captured by Shinra if he knew more. Hence, later on in Chapter 17, we see the continuity of the narration. Cloud asked Aerith to reveal what she had been hiding.

Back to Chapter 14, when Tifa was telling Leslie the meaning of the Reunion Flowers, Cloud turned to Tifa with a little surprised expression. It was a moment where Cloud realized that Aerith had known that they would meet again after their first encounter when she gave him the flower.

It is also a reference to Tifa’s Resolution Scene and their future Reunion. My explanation is that True Cloud subconsciously became triggered as Tifa mentioned Reunion and “We’ll meet again”. Tifa - Reunion - We’ll meet again. He didn’t truly know it right now, but at heart, True Cloud was still there.

In the ending, there was another close-up shot of Lily Flowers blooming beautifully in a pot. The image of Marlene watering the flower is her nurturing a hope that her dad - Barret would come back to her. The image is very bright and positive conveying the message that Barret and Marlene will definitely meet again. And, everyone will have their due Reunion fulfilled.

And also, when Aerith met Marlene for the first time, she asked Marlene to remember the flower. Marlene will remember the Flower - Aerith. The image of Aerith will live on beautifully in Marlene’s memory. She is taking care of the flowers, she won’t forget Aerith.

My final thought is that the beauty of symbols and indirect messages is that they are capable of carrying more than one meaning. I hope that people don’t have to fight which meaning is canon. They are all canon as long as they make sense and we have enough evidence to believe in them. Hope you have enjoyed this.

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You can also find my other analysis here:

INTRODUCTION & MASTERPOST

#final fantasy 7 remake #final fantasy vii remake #FF7 Remake #ff7remake #FF7R #ff7 r #final fantasy 7 remake analysis #ff7r symbolism analysis #ff7r analysis #cloud strife #aerith #tifa #barret #ff7 marlene #ff7r reunion flowers

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kreekey · 5 years ago

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examples of people being racist toward yoko unintentionally: 1- calling her a weird stalker when they glorify/don't mind the many white fangirls who used to stalk the Beatles. 2- spreading misinformation that she lost custody of her daughter when in fact she'd won against her white crazy ex despite everything NOT in favour of her 3- bashing her for using John's glasses on the album cover she worked with John on, when they would've praised the artistry and bold statement if she was a white woman

Hey sorry I got around to answering your ask so late! You make a lot of really interesting points and I rarely hear people consider that.

1 - reminds me of a Tumblr post I saw about an obsessive Beatlemaniac stalker and people were like “me” or “bless her” haha. Definitely different when they can interpret Yoko’s actions as “stalking”. And your point also reminds me of this quote, which isn’t about fangirls but still somewhat kinda related.

“Like Yoko when she met John, Linda was a divorced woman with a daughter when she met Paul mere months later. There are stories similar to those about Yoko of her “scheming” to meet and marry Paul. In the same way that Yoko is said to have joked prior to meeting him that she was “going to marry John Lennon,” Linda joked like any woman with a celebrity crush about how she was “going to marry Paul McCartney.” (Bob Spitz notes both in his book The Beatles. Guess which one he thought was conniving, and which one he thought was adorable.)... Was it the lucky fact that Linda got the scene a few months later than Yoko, or was it her whiteness?“

And I don’t have the answer if it was Yoko’s race that made her such a target, but it’s something interesting to consider and note. [And I’ll clarify this, I'm pretty sure Yoko didn't know about the Beatles until she became face to face with one, like she wasn't a fan who got lucky enough to meet her idol. In the David Frost interview and the 1971 Rolling Stone interview, John noted that Yoko didn't know him when they met, and Yoko Ono: Collector of Skies by Neil Beram says this on their meeting: "She was about as familiar with John's work as he was with hers. "I was an underground person, and such an artistic snob," she said later. "I knew about The Beatles, of course... but I wasn't interested in them." Just about the only thing she could recall about them was the drummer Ringo Starr's first name, because ringo means "apple" in Japanese.”] Also, and this definitely wasn’t stalking, but I posted a quote from Bob Spitz’ biography where he writes along the lines of

“[Linda] always insisted that she was going to marry Paul McCartney,” [Nat Weiss] recalls, “even before she met him”... It was no accident that Linda Eastman veered into his aura. She’d taken a few polite shots of Ringo and George before “zeroing in on Paul,”... Linda had come dressed to kill. Most days she played the typical rock chick, decked out in rumpled jeans and a T-shirt, with little or no makeup and unwashed hair. But today her hair had been carefully blow-dried so that it fell perfectly forward in wing points at her chin. And she was dressed in an expensive double-breasted striped barbershop jacket arranged just so over a sheer black sweater, with a miniskirt that flattered her gorgeous legs. When she squatted down – not so subtly, in what must have been a rehearsed gesture – in front of Paul for an intimate chat, he had trouble keeping his eyes from wandering below-decks...

, and some people commented that it appeared kinda predatory/pre-planned (reminds me of some criticism of Francie Schwartz’s meeting with Paul), but overall cute and everything. At the time I wondered how people would react if Yoko did that to John lol. No way of knowing, just a thought. And also, I know Yoko sent him Grapefruit and little instructions often, I think that’s usually what people cite as the stalking, that she tried to ensnare him with it. Again quoting Yoko Ono: Collector of Skies,

For a time Yoko kept in touch with John by mailing him daily instructions-she called this Dance Event-that said things like "Dance" and "Watch all the lights until dawn" and "I'm a cloud. Watch for me in the sky." John found the instructions as perplexing as he found them intriguing.

And quoting this interview (in which she also asserts that “each and every occasion she visited John at Kenwood, it was at his invitation.”),

Despite the popular theory that Yoko was frantically inventing schemes to snare the wealthy Beatle, she was struggling with problems in her marriage [with Tony Cox] and also working hard to establish her career in the UK. Arriving in London in September 1966 to perform at the ‘Destruction In Art Symposium’, Yoko was already respected as an avant-garde artist and performer in New York, where she was allied to the Fluxus movement. She had a trained musical background, and had recently been involved in the improvisational music favoured by her peer group. She had also compiled a book of conceptual and instructional pieces called Grapefruit, and printed up a limited edition.

Yoko distributed copies to a number of influential people during 1966-’67. And John Lennon was one of the recipients. This has since been interpreted as one of various ruses on Yoko’s part to enchant Lennon.

She retorts: “There was a myth that I sent Grapefruit to him… how I wanted to trap him. It was a printed, published book. I had an orange carton of them, a lot of it. I would be giving it to critics. It was that sort of thing. He wasn’t the only one who got it.”

And by then, John had already eagerly offered to sponsor one of her shows, I think he was genuinely interested in her work. I don’t think John was actually threatened by these notes or felt he was harassed, especially since he made the jump to invite her over while his wife was away (and Yoko just thought it was a party!). He once referred to Yoko “someone that could turn me on to a million things” in the Lennon Remembers interview, he admired her art. And I know he said to Cyn that the letters were just junk from another one of those weird artists, but c’mon, what do you think John would say to his wife regarding the woman he’s romantically interested in? I don’t think it would’ve been fully truthful IMO, especially considering when John said that he nearly invited Yoko to India around that time because he liked her so.

2 is very true. Tony himself tried to make it seem like Yoko and John were crazy heroin druggies, and that's the case he tried to make (and that’s what he tried to tell Kyoko, that he was “saving” her from drug obsessed occultists). But, Yoko had gone “cold turkey” (ala the song) off heroin in 1969. This was 2 years before she won full custody in 1971.

Although neither parent had been awarded sole custody of the child, Mr. Cox became increasingly reluctant to let Yoko and her new husband spend time with Kyoko, and finally refused to permit it at all. For a year before the Lennons came to America, they had been chasing Mr. Cox and Kyoko around Europe. In Majorca, Spain, the Lennons caught up with them and spirited Kyoko off to their hotel; but Mr. Cox called the police, and a Spanish court gave the child back to him. The incident added to his fear that the Lennons wanted to take her away from him for good.

Soon after the Lennons arrived in New York, they went to the United States Virgin Islands, to the same court where Yoko had been divorced, and that court awarded her permanent custody of her daughter.

But, Tony then took Kyoko to Texas (hiding/kidnapping her) which was in violation of that court order. Then more custody battle due to Tony’s stubbornness and evasiveness, but yes, Yoko did win custody then despite everything (even though John was very threatened by Tony lol, to the point he disallowed Yoko to visit him alone in order to discuss co-parenting when that was an option and suggested kidnapping Kyoko. But then again Tony was also kinda crazy. Seriously though IMO Yoko really tried gallantly to have Kyoko in her life, and the loss hurt her. To hear people try to spin it as Yoko being the monster in the situation through misinformation is unfortunate.)

3 is hypothetical, but I do speculate that if Yoko was white, the attitude toward her would’ve been different. Sean said, “It’s intense how racist the world is. If my mother had looked like Debbie Harry, I really think the reaction would have been different.” (X) Yoko’s former partner, Sam Havadtoy, also touched on this in an interview from 1990:

Q: ...No matter what Yoko does, she’s frequently the victim of a bad press. Any idea why?

Havadtoy: After John’s death, newspapers wrote that Yoko was this selfish person hoarding John’s memory, controlling it, not willing to share it with his fans. So after two years, she puts out 200 hours of film footage and a record and they say she’s exploiting John’s memory. She can’t win.

Q: Why not?

Havadtoy: Racism. If she were blond-haired and blue-eyed, nobody would have blamed her for breaking up the Beatles. They were the darlings of the universe; she was an outsider, an Oriental, an avant-garde artist--easy to pick on. When John married Yoko, the British press wrote: “At least he will have clean laundry.” And it’s still happening. America is infatuated with Japan-bashing.

And I do think Season Of Glass was a memory thing, I posted about it here: X.

And yes, I think that much of Yoko’s criticism/legacy was rooted in that initial reaction, which was pretty sexist and racist. But I think that influence can still be felt today, in ways that aren’t obvious. And like you said, unintentional. (Before anyone gets mad, if you dislike or hate Yoko that doesn't automatically make you racist lol. But the narrative built around her might’ve influenced your opinion of her, and the narrative was kinda rooted in a racist mentality. So that’s why and re-interpreting her in a fresh light is necessary).

#sorry I know i've said something like that last paragraph many times but just to clarify y'know #yoko ono #the beatles fandom #asks #answers #long post #it got longer than i expected sorry!!#also anon sorry i left your ask unanswered so long!! hope you see this <3 #retrospective

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punkscowardschampions · 4 years ago

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Libi & Bobby

Libi: I’ve just found my phone in the sea of costumes

Libi: How so many people need alterations and mending at this point 😱😱😰

Libi: I’ve got a… well, it’s not weird

Libi: but it is, but that’s not really the right word to describe it but I can’t think of said word so it’ll have to do

Bobby: Hang on, forget the play a sec

Bobby: What’s this message? 🤨

Bobby: is it the sender or what they said that’s making it feel weird?

Libi: That’s practically blasphemy Bobs! 😏 Mullans will have you helping Tom with his lines for that, poor boy… we’re all officially off book this week and he is not a little bit ready

Libi: Um, both?

Libi: I mean it’s Louie, so it’s not that weird he’d message me, I guess

Libi: We have messaged back and forth a bit, obviously, it isn’t totally random

Bobby: Sir would have to reckon I’m capable of something first, that’s a subject change though

Bobby: go on, what’s the but? What’s Louie said?

Libi: I was going on the assumption he’d forget you were deaf altogether and act like you’ll be able to hear Tom

Libi: He is quite loud in his delivery but still

Libi: 🙄

Libi: At least we have Ms Howe backing up all our other ideas

Libi: I think he’s asked me out on a date

Libi: Well I know because he said did I want to go to the cinema, to see that latest adaptation of Orient Express, and I thought he meant did we ALL wanna go so he corrected me when I started planning as such… which was awkward

Bobby: Mullan does dress a bit like you did when we met,‘course it doesn’t look as cute on him, but makes sense he’d also rob your 🔊 by chucking Tom at me

Bobby: well alright, awkward is the right word there, are you still gonna go?

Libi: I don’t know who that’s more insulting to 😂 shocking behaviour

Libi: I can’t really process it, I don’t know

Libi: Should I?

Bobby: Depends if he’s okay with you just going as mates

Bobby: he might be too 💔 and that’ll make it more awkward

Libi: It’d make the play really awkward

Libi: I’ve already put my foot in it with thinking it was a cast and crew thing

Libi: I can’t very well be like IS THIS AS FRIENDS as well, can I?

Bobby: 🤔 I dunno if there’s a way it wouldn’t be a 🤏 now but saying no and not making it obvious you still wanna be mates could mess up the play even more, you have gotta kiss, it’d probably be better if he don’t 💭 you think he’s gross or whatever

Libi: Right, maybe it sounds silly but I really do not want to jeopardise the play in any way, not at this stage

Libi: I really want it to go well for all of us, we’ve all put way too much work in for something like that to spoil it

Libi: I couldn’t just go, could I?

Libi: Not qualify it either way

Bobby: It’s not silly, everyone knows how invested you are, you’ve worked harder than any of us

Bobby: but you don’t owe the play going that far

Bobby: what are you gonna do, fake date him til after it’s over? Come on, Libs

Bobby: he must like you for real, one date would lead to him asking you out on another

Libi: I don’t think Jan would ever speak to me again if I stole the bit for such a pathetic reason

Libi: she’d judge me hardcore anyway and can’t have that

Libi: You’re right, I’ll have to let him down gently then

Libi: Whatever that sounds like…

Bobby: I know our lil 👰🤵 wasn’t legally binding but I’d rather you didn’t either

Bobby: I’d still be 💔

Bobby: for you, I mean

Bobby: Louie’s a bit

Libi: Is he?

Libi: I don’t really know him outside of the context of this play

Libi: like I didn’t know him before, I mean, obviously I’ve spoken to him as him now, a bit

Bobby: obviously I've had even less to do with him than you, but I've noticed when you're speaking to him as him you're not 😁

Bobby: even the 1 cinema trip might be asking a bit much of how 😇 you are

Libi: How much of an 😇 can I really be if I’m all 😒 😞 😔 😟 😕 🙁 ☹️ 😣 😖 😫 😩 🥺 😢 😭 😤 😠 😡 apparently

Libi: He’s a nice guy, I don’t know why I don’t want to date him

Bobby: In his pov or mine?

Bobby: I’d say your reaction is loads better than being unbothered, that’d make you really 😈

Bobby: anyway being a nice lad he’ll understand and it probably won’t be long before someone else does wanna go out with him

Bobby: you can’t force or properly fake 💘

Libi: He’s probably going to ask someone else, you’re right

Libi: it’s not a big deal

Libi: I could say you really wanna see it too, that would work

Bobby: It can’t be a massive deal, he hasn’t known you THAT long, not before the play, like you said

Libi: Totally

Libi: it’s not like he’s 💘 or anything, just interested

Bobby: Yeah, he’ll be alright and so will the play

Libi: Thanks, Bobby

Libi: even if I still need to think of what to message back

Bobby: Just be as honest as you can handle without 😳

Bobby: lying isn’t a top skill of yours and you don’t want him to work out you are

Libi: I can’t argue with you even if I feel I should

Libi: I’ll try my best

Libi: I might leave it for a 🤏 bit

Bobby: can’t fault you for it, and I won’t need to ‘cause it’ll be okay

Libi: A woman’s prerogative, so I hear

Bobby: deffo can’t argue with that, it’d have me coming across like a nice guy ™️ ❌👏

Libi: 😬 it isn’t lost on me that I friendzone Louie’s character in the harshest way by being a murderess

Libi: I won’t bring that up though, hopefully he won’t be thinking it

Libi: 🩸👠 isn’t an association I’d love to bring into my everyday

Bobby: I’m more 🤞 Mr Mullan doesn’t hear about art imitating life ‘cause you’ll never hear the end of it

Libi: Oh no

Libi: he’s so…

Libi: he’s a lot

Bobby: See, an 😇 way of putting it 😏

Libi: I can see why China and him get along, is a less polite way

Libi: but as true

Libi: she’d much prefer femme fatale over hysterical American

Bobby: It won’t kill her not to get her own way for once

Libi: It might drive poor America insane

Libi: How are her and Sean now?

Libi: I cannot believe I managed to put my foot in it like that, I felt awful but she wouldn’t hear it and if I tried to apologize to him he’d have thought I was meddling more than he probably already reckoned

Bobby: 💰 on her mates going insane 1st how often she must stay with some of them

Bobby: not that I blame her for not going home and you shouldn't blame yourself for anything that happens between her and Sean, he knows what she's like and what's been going on

Bobby: I guess they've sorted it? I dunno, have to go off their insta stories more than whatever he'd actually admit

Libi: I have been wondering about that

Libi: if I should more officially ask my grandparents/offer her the spare room

Libi: or if that’ll be insulting, or they might say we shouldn’t put ourselves into people’s family affairs

Libi: glad it’s not just me 😅 again, they’re hardly the only on-again-off-again couple around that I find totally perplexing so it’s no dig

Bobby: 🤔 I was 💭 the same but I wasn't sure if it'd be weird coming from me as a lad, especially if they're off again when I make the offer

Bobby: I reckon it's a good idea though if you're allowed to

Libi: I don’t think she’d take it that way but emphasis on the I part, I see how she could and why you’d be hesitant

Libi: I think the best way is to ask her first, if she would want me to then ask my grandparents… the potential disappointment if they say no is better than me doing the wrong thing and making it worse, right?

Bobby: Her sister has told me that lads and girls can't be mates so she would probably have loads to say which we can all do without

Bobby: 👍 getting your grandparents involved more than you need to when you don't need to isn't a 🥇💡 you're totally right

Libi: She would think that 🙄

Libi: guess it makes her feel better that Jake doesn’t want to be her friend

Libi: Cool, that’s the plan of attack there then, an easier message to send for sure

Bobby: 💔 Jake doesn’t know about Louie asking you out, it might’ve got him to back off 🤏

Libi: Or get him to do the same

Libi: Wow, that sounded really conceited 😲😅

Libi: You know what I mean though, more that he’s that type of lad than I’m that much of a catch

Bobby: you can still be a catch even though he's a dickhead but hey

Bobby: least if he does ask you you've already practiced a rejection text, type of lad he is isn't gonna take a no as easy 😬

Libi: Don’t jinx me!

Libi: He’d probably just send me a bootycall and expect me to jump, right? Ick

Libi: You don’t behave like that, do you Bobs?

Bobby: 😲❗️ can’t believe you’d ask me that Libs

Libi: Come on, you’re my only insight into what boys are like

Libi: it seems pretty par for the course, maybe not Jake levels of extreme but

Bobby: Soz I’ve got no insight into bootycalls

Libi: Okay

Libi: I’m not mad about that

Libi: that’d be a LOT to process about you rn

Bobby: I’ve got no secrets I’m keeping from you, especially not 💘🔐

Libi: 😊💚💜

Libi: Lucie has turned out to be less cute than I thought

Libi: IMO anyway

Bobby: what’s she said or done that you’ve not told me about?

Libi: Nothing compared to China, so nothing

Libi: I can see how they were friends though, before they dramatically weren’t

Libi: I wonder who Jake will choose, if he ever does

Bobby: I think he likes not choosing and keeping everyone dramatically in suspense 🙄

Libi: Begrudgingly admit he’s suited to his role in that respect

Libi: he’ll fall for someone totally out of left-field and leave both of them in the dust

Libi: if romcoms have taught us anything

Bobby: If it’s gonna be Am I better warn Sean

Libi: She hates him

Libi: which in certain stories WOULD make him 😍

Libi: but I can’t see it

Bobby: exactly it’s the plot twist everyone saw coming and the most obvious trope going, but thankfully we don’t live in a romcom

Libi: it does all feel a bit romcom rn, I think that must be what inspired Louie

Libi: not my preferred genre, tbh

Bobby: I’m alright with swapping Orient Express for whatever horror is playing, doubt he’ll be in another row of that screen waiting to spy on you

Libi: If anyone’s destined to be the stalker, right?

Libi: we better go, he’s not done anything wrong

Bobby: 📌📅 for when? How keen was he?

Libi: [Probably this weekend from whichever day he’s asked because keen is the vibe, sorry Louie]

Bobby: 👌😂

Libi: don’t be mean 😫😅

Libi: plenty of girls would be happy to go out with him

Bobby: Yeah and I’m not running him down to any of them, or you even really, I already told you I think he’s a bit

Bobby: 🤓🥀

Bobby: He gestures A LOT, is he one of those OTT doing shakespeare in the theatre type actors or what?

Libi: I guess the role is pretty...campy

Libi: I can see what he’s going for even if I’d suggest toning it down 🤏

Libi: It’s a good thing you aren’t slagging him off to the girls, he’d not stand a chance then

Bobby: Who am I that they'd be bothered what I think? Not ever asked or been asked, me

Bobby: and everyone knows the butler has always got a massive agenda anyway

Libi: Lots of girls think you’re cute though

Bobby: 😳

Libi: What? I can’t tell you you’re handsome

Libi: and that girls have obviously noticed that

Bobby: I guess 'cause I don't 👀 it I don't 💭 about it, I dunno but it's 😳

Libi: I get it

Libi: it IS weird when other people say it

Libi: @ Louie @ Jake

Libi: it’s not like when family say it but you know they have to say it, even if they mean it… 🤔 first and foremost it’s ‘cos they 💘 you

Libi: Saying we’ll get used to it sounds very big-headed but I guess it won’t freak us out as much from now on

Libi: 🤞

Bobby: I'm not sure there's a proper way for me not to get freaked out when other people notice me, even if it is only with their 👀 'cause I still forget I exist to them most of the time 🤷‍♂️

Bobby: but obviously the play was just the start for you, loads of lads are gonna wanna be more than mates with you everywhere you go, soon as they realise how great you are, so yeah, I better get used to that

Bobby: 🤞🤞 I find stuff to 📌📅 when you're on all these dates

Libi: Of course you exist to them! The school is just too bloody lazy to actually make it so more students can acknowledge and actually converse with you like everyone else 😤

Libi: though acting like they’re the issue when it’s actually the world at large is not helpful of me at all

Libi: Ha! I’ll still be sharing a stage with the likes of Lucie, I think the majority of the male population will find other places to look, Bobs 😏

Libi: Anyway, I’ll soon lose any points if I brush enough of them off like poor Louie 😕

Bobby: Alright, maybe I’m not fully 👥 but nobody knows me well enough for 💘

Bobby: and anyone who prefers Lucie knows literally nothing

Bobby: you’d score all ✔️ in everything that makes people 😁 and 😍 you’re not losing any points for Louie or Jake, don’t even worry

Libi: Yet

Libi: Pretty sure that’s the point of dating

Libi: not that I’m an expert on the subject 😅

Libi: you’re sweet

Bobby: You know what I mean, unless it’s a blind date you usually already know each other a bit, enough to be interested anyway

Bobby: nobody’s there yet

Libi: You want to start looking?

Libi: Lots of girls still like the boy to initiate, old-fashioned but works in our favour

Bobby: not my prefered genre either, it’s okay

Libi: 👍

Libi: We could go see the horror after, I’ve checked the times

Bobby: long as your nan doesn’t mind me keeping you out that late, I’m cool with it

Libi: She wouldn’t hold back telling you if she did by now

Bobby: True

Bobby: but don’t mention to Louie what a lucky escape he’s had there or he’ll fancy himself as Romeo next

Libi: Thank GOD we’re not attempting Shakespeare… what Lady Macbeth and the young lovers might inspire in everyone isn’t something I’m ready to find out yet

Bobby: he does put a silent character in most of his plays though, that’d make sir’s job of casting me well easy

Libi: let’s not make his job any easier

Libi: his creative ‘vision’ (as he puts it, I would never) is lacking in well, any creativity

Libi: casting potential included, of course

Libi: I think we’ve all made the best of though, don’t you?

Bobby: What you’re saying is, where’s the blind-deaf solidarity if he’s gonna keep his 👀 shut the whole time 😏

Bobby: *you’ve made it loads better than it should be and deserve all the credit he’ll lap up on opening night

Bobby: that’s what I think

Libi: It definitely wasn’t a one-woman mission

Libi: you’ve done loads, for example

Libi: we’ll have our own afterparty of sorts, and he won’t be invited to make a speech 😏🙌

Bobby: Only props which anyone who takes art could’ve done but I’m not gonna say no to a 🥳

Bobby: is Louie invited?

Libi: I think everyone but the teachers will have to at least be offered an invite

Libi: wrap parties are tradition… I think 🤔😋

Bobby: what about China and Jake?

Libi: Yeah, them too…

Libi: In American films they go to diners, we could do an equivalent, not necessarily a party party

Libi: so we don’t look like we’re ‘taking over’ or whatever

Bobby: Let’s go to [somewhere that has an american diner vibe because I’m sure there is] they have the best 🍨

Libi: Yes! 💡

Libi: Who can be 😠😒🙄 at sundaes?

Bobby: J and J weren’t and they always were back then

Libi: Exactly

Libi: If they can manage to crack a smile, like

Libi: I won’t be heartbroken if certain people don’t want to do it but not going to be accused of any more cliquey-ness

Bobby: me either but I’d be 😁 if we were the only ones there

Bobby: which is why I’ll never be the main character of anything but a really low budget indie

Libi: I find socializing exhausting so I can only imagine how much more you do

Libi: Much easier staying kids and not being expected to do anything we didn’t 100% want to, yeah

Bobby: yeah

Bobby: have they done Peter Pan before? Be more fun than shakespeare

Libi: Not that I know of

Libi: we should ask Ms Howe

Bobby: Alright, but I won’t mention to her how I reckon Jake and Louie could fight it out for who’s gonna be the 🐊⏰ depending which one’s the fastest at taking your hints you’re not interested once this play’s over

Bobby: Or that China’ll have to be 🧚 if you’re Wendy

Libi: Ugh, don’t! She’d LOVE the outfit, if she could convince Mullan to let her wear it… 🙄

Libi: I’d cast her as Nana for the shade of it all, as I’m such a bitch don’t you know, but she’s far too lovely a dog to warrant such a miscast 😏

Bobby: Mr Mullan will probably wanna cast me when he realises it’s not a talking 🐶 she’d have a fight on her hands again 😏

Libi: I think you’d look excellent in a bonnet 🤭

Bobby: I’d rather be the lil brother with the 🧸 be a good luck charm and a weapon against dickheads if needed

Bobby: he’s too young to say much anyway if I remember right

Libi: You’d get to wear pajamas for the whole first act too 👍

Libi: Again, not to sound like a broken record about it, making Peter deaf could be really interesting and make the plot even more heightened

Libi: There’s lots of things he doesn’t understand about real life and real people because he’s immortal, if there’s that added communication barrier between him and the lost boys, it makes the way he is even more logical, in its way, it’s a easy, perhaps a little cliche way, to show he isn’t an ordinary boy

Libi: Not to mention the relationship he and Wendy manage to forge despite this would break the audiences hearts even more when they inevitably lose it

Libi: Clearly, I’ll have to write this persuasive essay for Sir before the next play is decided 😅

Bobby: 😲

Bobby: that’s SUCH a 🥇💡

Bobby: now I’m actually speechless

Libi: I’m pretty proud of that one, ngl

Libi: need to expand the 💭 but it’s got legs, right

Libi: I thought our last idea did but there’s less wriggling out of this, it being a fantasy and all

Bobby: Like you said, we’ll go to Ms Howe, convince her and let her worry about dealing with him, I’ll help you, transition year is a massive faff Jim was right

Libi: Is it nice to have the break though? After your exams last year

Bobby: 🤏 work experience is the best bit by far though and I don’t get many breaks there

Bobby: gonna have to start going 🛌 proper early like I’m 👴

Libi: ⏲ if you mean it

Bobby: 💔 but yeah

Libi: 💔 is easier to deal with than 🥱 in the morning

Bobby: Dunno about that, maybe when it’s Louie on the receiving end of the 💔 and you’re 🥱 of his 😍

Libi: Shh, don’t remind me

Libi: dreading this reply more than my homework

Bobby: [knows her well enough that he writes the kind of reply he knows she would send and it doesn’t even sound like a pisstake]

Bobby: ✔️

Libi: See, you’re a natural actor

Libi: that was a little TOO convincing, if anything

Libi: but I’m not in a position to turn down help 🙏🙌

Bobby: Not if you want me to come round and help with your homework before the ⏲ runs out and all

Libi: 😘

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malorisaurus · 9 months ago

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Because I am now obsessively thinking about this, I started looking around for other people that have this perspective and found this:

I liked several of the points made here. I am also copying my tags to the original post I made here:

#look especially in some of the more recent films godzilla is portrayed as being a sort of protector of the world at the expense of tiny ppl#one could definitely argue that this is a weird take for a creature that is definitely supposed to represent nuclear weapons#but regardless there is a sense that godzilla has a purpose for their actions and that the reasoning is dramatically misunderstood#except by REALLY BIG WEIRDOS#the people that take a second to try to understand Godzilla's behaviors are also coded imo lol#but beyond that i just relate to them as this big lumbering creature that doesn't really know their own strength in relation to people#and is just out doing their thing and being really tired about people just like shooting them and throwing bombs at them all the time#okay bye

In thinking more about it, not only is the way that Godzilla has been portrayed over the entirety of their existence been more complex than "big monster go smash," the Monsterverse films in particular portray Godzilla in a way that is explicitly meant to be sympathetic from the standpoint that they are misunderstood. It is integral to Godzilla in these portrayals that they have big reactions without understanding the dramatic consequences that come from those big reactions. That looks like meltdowns to me.

Even the environment often seems to perplex or startle Godzilla. This is one of the reasons why the last Monsterverse film might as well not exist for me—the titans are basically unnuanced action heroes at this point, which was a CHOICE in an already somewhat iffy portrayal. Godzilla has one safe space that they return to and expresses very much that they would like to be left alone there. All of this reads as autistic to me.

Many autistic people are perceived as not having emotions (or at least not having appropriate emotions) and as not experiencing empathy, which is largely a mistaken perception (though lack of emotional empathy is not innately immoral, as it is often portrayed). Many autistic people describe their experience as feeling like a monster. I think we deserve to discuss non-humanoid characters (robots/androids are still humanoid!)as autistic. Godzilla is a feeling creature, and so am I.

And I suppose the trouble comes from language: is it really autistic coding, or is it autistic headcanon. I struggle to differentiate when much of coding in media is unintentional anyway. Maybe that is my bad! But honestly, I want to describe more non-human or robot characters as autistic. We deserve to be non-humanoid.

All this said, it might be problematic to tie autism to a character that came so directly out of collective trauma around a brutal and immoral act by a imperial regime... 😅 BUT I WILL HAVE TO PROCESS THAT LATER OKAY

Someone on threads asked what people's favorite autistic coded characters are, and in a long list that I posted, I mentioned Godzilla. People acted like I was insane, and now I am very agitated. Like, I want to snap back and be condescending, which I hate doing. But the impulse for immediate gratification is there.

#personal #autistic #godzilla

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kinetic-elaboration · 5 years ago

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October 30: 1x21 The Return of the Archons

Took a break from Halloween-ing to watch TOS with my mom. Today’s ep, the rather lackluster Return of the Archons.

A very in media res beginning! Unsurprisingly since a lot of the drama of this episode hangs on the audience not knowing the whole story.

Sulu is looking damn fine. These weird outfits really do it for him.

Maybe O’Neill had the right idea in running instead of waiting for the transporter. (Or maybe not, seeing as we later find out they caught him too.)

Look at the heels on their boots lol. I always forget about that.

Today’s official adventure: looking for the missing ship Archon.

“Sulu’s mysterious condition requires that I, the Captain, collect all of the most important people on board the ship and beam down into a planet we already know to be full of dangers.”

“Materialization completed.” Uh good to know Kirk.

Why is Spock wearing that dramatic-ass cloak? (I know it’s because he needs a hood to cover his ears but he still looks very much not of a piece.)

Whereas McCoy looks like a down-home Georgia gentleman. He looks like he’s returned to his natural habitat.

I bet these are the sort of outfits AOS Kirk wished he was wearing when he was sighing wearily at his closet filled with uniforms.

I love that this planet is clearly the set of a Western. Or... Maybury. Or also Miri.

Not only did The 100 steal S3 from this episode, it also stole the Red Sun from it, didn’t it?

They keep saying they came for the festival and yet it is VERY clear they don’t know what the festival is. This disguise is not working.

It got dark damn fast. They’re outside, it’s almost 12--one would assume that’s 12 noon--and then they go inside, talk for about 3 minutes, go to another room, and it’s pitch black out!

Is this like The Purge? (I asked myself this while we were watching and--spoiler alert!--it is! The Purge was based, perhaps subconsciously, on this ep.)

Kirk looks very handsome in this ep. Like whoever directed it looks like he’s in love with him.

“Crewmen, here are your various assignments... Mr. Spock... come with me, somewhere private. To talk.”

Spock sleeping with his eyes open. (Meditating, my mom says.)

Oh look, it’s the secret police, in their brown robes.

Landru doesn’t seem too gentle lmao. “No dissent is allowed. You will be absorbed.” Randomly killing that guy who kinda said “maybe, uh, the festival...isn’t great??”

Kirk makes one comment about how everyone’s slow on the uptake here, and slow to respond to questions and denials, and Spock goes heart eyes. “Captain, how are you so smart and logical?”

“Fascinating, this is merely a hollow tube, Captain.” And uh I guess we’re never going to explain how that hollow tube kills people then?

They’re communing...

Love that Spock points out that the people are being communicated with through telepathy. Though... I remain sightly perplexed how the computer can do that. The next stage in Apple computing I guess.

Why isn’t Reger affected by all this? Like they imply that some people are spared the “festival” festivities because of their age, but that doesn’t seem to explain why he’s not “of the body.” Like being of the body isn’t a choice that people make, you’re ether absorbed or you’re not. They say later that he’s immune--but that in itself requires explanation. Like idk it seems a major plot hole that there can even be a resistance when the computer has controlled the society for thousands of years.

So I guess the backstory on the Archon ship is that they were all either absorbed or killed when they objected to the computer and its creepiness.

I do think the little hints that the society used to be way more advanced are intriguing.

“What should we do about this body that’s going to act as a tracking beacon right to us?” / “Uh, knock him out again.”

This planet is so peaceful.. no war or crime... except for people occasionally beating and raping each other nbd.

Was that Starfleet Officer really just going to shoot that projection? Not the best and the brightest being recruited nowadays I guess.

“The creature called Landru.”

“Enough analysis.” Spock always wants to talk through the whole backstory of the weird situations they’re in, while Kirk is a man of action!

Bones is really not being used to full capacity in this ep. He’s just kinda there in the background, until he’s absorbed.

Spock is very concerned about what will happen to the Captain, but also kind of... skeptical about this whole thing. For someone in control of his emotions he exhibits a lot of emotions imo.

“Happy communing!” Just gonna say this all the time now.

Time for another mind meld. So casual about it now.

Spock’s face during Kirk’s Landru-imitating speech is HILARIOUS. That eyebrow! The eye roll! I really think he’s amused by all of this.

He’s not very good at pretending to be absorbed. He sees Jim and he’s immediately like “Captain...!” all normal like.

“The peace of the factory, the tranquility of the machine.”

“You’re thinking the same thing I am. Mr. Spock... I love you.”

It’s pretty awesome that the same ep that introduces the Prime Directive also immediately finds Kirk forming loopholes in it. “We’re not supposed to interfere.... in living, growing cultures, which this isn’t! Moral conundrum solved.”

Spock actually straight up punched a man in the face lol.

Interesting that the communicators work like that--Spock is talking to the Enterprise on his, and Kirk just slides into the conversation on his device, without Spock abandoning his call. I think because they became cell phones irl that I think of them as cells but they’re not. It’s just weird to see them casually used in these totally bonkers ways.

Lol he returned them to a simpler, easier time. I guess you could say Landru made Beta III great again.

So Reger had second thoughts about actually destroying Supreme Leader once it got too real?

Interesting how Landru’s lair is so much more sci-fi-y in aesthetic than the town. Another hint of what the society used to look like.

Spock without the cloak. Damn son.

“We do not intend to die.” That’s a good attitude.

Revealing the Wizard behind the curtain...

“The whole society is a machine’s concept of perfection.”

A man programming himself into an all knowing machine that lives forever really does remind me of Becca and ALIE except with a 60s aesthetic--a large, physical computer rather than an AI.

“The good of the body is the Prime Directive.” Tbh I feel like what this whole ep is saying is that sometimes Prime Directives need to be bent if the reality of the situation doesn’t square with the spirit of the directive.

I love when Kirk destroys computers using Extreme Logic.

That should be a presidential debate question "What have you done to do justice to the full potential of every individual of the body?"

“Well, now that that’s done, we’re going to go. Have fun rebuilding your entire society from nothing. We’ll leave you a single sociologist to help out.”

So Mr. Sulu is back to normal, and he immediately returns to the bridge to give a little, goofy sitcom smile-and-shrug and kick some random extra outta his chair.

Why do they assume Landru was a good guy lol? I mean he solved their extreme violence problem but he instituted a plenty of other problems instead. Also he was clearly a megalomaniac.

This society’s backstory sounds an awful lot like pre-reform Vulcan. Maybe they should just send a Vulcan to teach them Surak’s ways.

Honestly they were left alone for like an hour and had a handful of fist fights. I think they really were a very violent people! Maybe destroying the dictator-computer was a bad idea!

I find it very odd that the whole festival thing was never actually explained. I guess it must have been a purge idea--that because they are so naturally violent and terrible aliens, they need to let off that steam in some way every now and again, and they do this through a “festival” of no-holds-barred violence. Still kinda wish they’d explicitly circled back on that in some way though.

I think the most interesting part of this episode was the planet’s back story. Kirk acts in the end as if they were basically human, but they’re not. Also, I got the impression that Landru convinced people to follow him first, and then only when he died, set himself up as an eternal God/Computer. So he must have been a very interesting, charismatic person. And that one of his ideas was to return to a “simpler time” in everything from dress to architecture, as if that had any real correlation with levels of violence is... fascinating. Was that the hook that he hung his reform on?

Overall, as I said, not a super strong S1 episode, but not bad at all. Next week is Space Seed, a classic episode that unfortunately was absolutely wrung dry by too many repeats over the course of the franchise. (...Yes I am referring specifically to STID obviously.) Still that shouldn’t take away from the brilliance of the original!

#star trek tos #the year 2020 #2020: fandom thoughts #2020: star trek

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misscrawfords · 5 years ago

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The Rise of Skywalker: Part Two

Read Part One here.

One of the many things I’ve been grappling with over the 2 weeks since TROS came out is the validity and cause of my upset and anger. And it centres round the question: if Reylo had ended differently, if they’d had a happy ending, if Ben Solo had lived, would I still hate the film? Would I still be angry? Or would I forgive and overlook its other myriad flaws? And connected to those central questions is another that pressed upon me, namely: am I angry and upset because it is a bad film on multiple levels that insults its audience and breaks its own mythology in a way that is deeply distressing to female viewers and is fundamentally a poorly written film or do I only feel like that because I am a disappointed shipper? Am I only upset because I have got so attached to my HEA fluffy fanfic that I’ve lost sight of the story that canon is actually telling?

There’s a wider issue contained in these questions that I’ve been asking myself which is that there is a judgement implicit that responding to a film purely as a shipper is a bad thing, that it invalidates my criticism and my feelings if, in fact, I am simply an upset and disappointed shipper who wanted a happy ending. That’s an issue that is definitely worth pursuing but elsewhere.

It’s been two weeks. I’ve read multiple twitter threads, listened to bits of WTForce podcast (it’s very long... and was making me cry...), many reviews of the film, and today I finally started reading Valerie Estelle Frankel’s From Girl to Goddess: The Heroine’s Journey through Myth and Legend which is blowing my mind and giving me the confidence to say what I’ve known for a while:

My feeling that TROS is a terrible film on multiple levels - all of them actually - is valid. You may disagree and that’s fine. It’s only an opinion. But it’s my opinion and I stand by it. And, returning to the initial question that has been perplexing me - in fact I cannot separate the way the characters of Rey and Kylo/Ben were treated from the film’s other flaws. If Ben had lived, if Reylo had had a happy ending, if their relationship had played out differently, even if they had both died, yes, I would have been more inclined to forgive the film its many other flaws and misjudgements, but the fact is, if Reylo had been written in a satisfactory way then it would have been a very different film. Reylo is only one - one massive, egregious error - thing that contributes to the mess that this films. It is not the only thing that is enraging and upsetting but it is probably the biggest. I’ll talk about these other things in yet another post, but for now...

Let’s talk about Reylo.

tl;dr: Reylo is canon and the movie still sucked. Here’s a 5000+ word dissertation on why. Maybe don’t read if my opinions on this are going to make you sad/angry.

I’m going to break down my problems with Reylo in this film logically and honestly, I’m not sure I’m going to say anything that hasn’t already been said, but perhaps reading another perspective will help others who feel similarly? I’m guessing it’s going to help me if I write about it. We’ll see.

There are three problems. There’s the problem of the fate of Ben Solo. In a way, that’s the easiest and simplest one to deal with. Death was always on the cards as a possible ending for him. A tragic hero who commits terrible acts is redeemed in death by saving the world. The death of this character is... not a surprise and has always been an ending I worried about because I’m a shipper and I like happy endings over sad ones. And I’ve been very convinced by the meta and arguments of shippers who have argued passionately that Ben had to live. However, arguably the problem is not the death in itself but the circumstances and the context. So I’ll come back to that.

The second problem is that of Rey. Rey’s development (or lack of it) and especially her ending. Yep. This is a big problem. Far bigger IMO than the death of Ben which, while tragic, could have been beautiful and fitting.

Thirdly, is Ben and Rey together. Reylo. Their relationship and the way it plays out and the way, ultimately, all of this breaks the mythology being established in previous films.

So three very interlinked problems.

To summarise. In TROS Kylo regresses to being the Supreme Leader and trying to source dark power. This is not terribly surprising considering the ending of TLJ. Rey also regresses to someone who is training and who does not believe she is worthy of Luke’s lightsaber. This is surprising because Rey has already accepted her destiny and her role as a Jedi at the end of TLJ. There is no reason for her to feel insecure about it a year later in TROS.

Rey and Kylo connect through their Force Bond and fight. Their anger is understandable but these fights continuously rehash exactly the same material as what was covered in TLJ, leaving me feeling, well, not very much. Kylo is trying to tell Rey something about who she is (a question that was resolved in TLJ) and Rey is angry at him because of reasons.

There are some good parts here. Unlike a lot of people, I really liked the fight at Pasaana. I felt it took something from TLJ and added something else. It was a rehash of the throne room fight over the lightsaber but while that conflict was entirely personal over an object that meant something to them but not the wider population (beyond what it could do as a weapon), the same conflict here was over a transport ship containing real people and Chewie (apparently), a character of importance to both. So what happened is that their inability to reconcile with each other and meet half way is manifested in a completely balanced conflict which has a living cost. Chewie dies! Rey kills someone dear to her - accidentally, sure - but she now has a body count showing how truly destructive her fight with Kylo is. It is a symbol of how necessary it is they work together and find balance. Daisy Ridley’s acting here was great and I felt genuinely shocked. Shocked that Rey plunged so immediately into a kind of darkness that put her on a level with Kylo and shocked that Chewie was killed off so casually without warning or build-up - a real casualty of war and the raised stakes in this film. I thought it was a great way to build on TLJ and extend it.

So you can imagine how I felt when Chewie’s death was retconned.

Pretty similar to how I felt when C-3PO got his memory back.

I will probably talk more about this in Part Three, which is my wider issues with the film, but it’s sort of unavoidable mentioning them here because of course the way the film invalidates serious emotion by showing in so many ways that Death Is Not The End and is consequently meaningless impacts on Reylo and the fact that Ben dies.

Another nice moment was the snatching of the beads through the Force Bond. I mean, Kylo literally stole some fertility-coded beads from Rey’s neck!? Uh, this subtext is rapidly becoming text, as they say. Pasaana was weird though, right? Rey talks to children, is at a festival of life, she is fulfilling her role of becoming a symbolic mother which she started in TLJ and which fits the child Jedi at the end of that film (who was never seen again but we’ll deal with that later) and Kylo receives a gift of a necklace (a feminine symbol) from her immediately afterwards... This is pretty hot and heavy symbolism. Of their union and a future involving children, real or metaphorical.

And Rey learns how to heal with the Force, trying it on a giant worm as practice. This fits with her heroine’s journey - she is not using the lightsaber (a symbol of masculine power) but is using her power to preserve and save, which is feminine power. So far so good. I mean, it’s a shame they are wasting all these Force Bond sessions backtracking on TLJ to the extent that instead of enjoying their interactions, I’m going “Yeah yeah yeah okay but we’ve already done this but better”. But there’s still development so it’s okay and sometimes it’s even kind of hot.

Rey Palpatine.

Oh dear.

Look, it’s not the thing itself. The union of a Skywalker and a Palpatine, the balance coming from the union of two great families on either side of the Force, is honestly not a bad idea at all. Ben as the Skywalker with a bit of darkness in him balanced by Rey the Palpatine with a bit of light in her. BALANCE. It could be beautiful.

Unfortunately it isn’t. Rey’s lineage was resolved really well in TLJ. Rey Nobody is a great idea for all the reasons everyone already says - opening up the Force to everyone instead of keeping it as a kind of aristocratic lineage etc. Retconning this is really unnecessary and also sends a terrible message to the audience, especially women, as everyone has already discussed to death. Rey is literally told her power comes from a creepy old man who won’t stay dead instead of something innate within her. Instead of letting the past die, we are digging it up like an overzealous and ignorant 19th century British aristocrat let loose in Egypt with a pick-axe and period-applicable racism. Rey is then told that her parents sold her and abandoned her… to protect her. Another great message. And apparently Luke, Han and Leia all knew this?????? Honestly, I was confused by all this when I was watching the film but from what I’ve read afterwards it seems this is the case and in which case not only does that not make literally any sense at all in terms of what happened in TFA and TLJ but also has pretty awful implications for the OT characters and how they related to Ben.

As I mentioned, it is also unnecessary for the plot for Rey to be a Palpatine. If Palpatine has to come back (which he doesn’t but okay whatever) then surely it’s enough that Rey is extremely strong in the Force for him to either want to kill her or want to control her? Like, literally that’s what he did to Anakin. Why does she have to be related to him unless the film is making some very unfortunate conclusions about blood. Good blood, bad blood… yeeeaaaaaah, this isn’t great as a message. It could be but that’s not the story the first two films have told. Also does Palpatine want to kill her or control her? Like, I’m genuinely not clear on that. I’m not sure he is. I’m not sure the film is. What is actually going on? Also if Palpatine has been controlling Ben his entire life why the hell didn’t he control Rey? Surely it’s easier to invade and control the mind of his own flesh and blood than that of another random Force child he isn’t related to? Who is surrounded by other powerful Force users? When Rey is all alone? Like if Palpatine is able to build up an insanely massive army that nobody has noticed across the Galaxy while still being kind of dead, surely he can access the mind of Rey on Jakku? Also, how did he manage to impregnate a human woman while being sort of dead and old? On both a mythical level and on the level of a question of taste and plausibility, HOW???

THIS PLOT MAKES LITERALLY NO SENSE WHAT IS GOING ON AAAARGGGHHH

And breathe.

So anyway, Rey Palpatine. Rey and Kylo fight and Rey kills Kylo. It didn’t really work for me though I’d have to watch again to figure out precisely why. This epic, wet fight just… wasn’t quite as epic as I expected it to be. Maybe it was because Finn was randomly there. Maybe it was because it didn’t have the dialogue from the trailer. Maybe it was because I was just tired of watching them fight and not seeing their relationship progress during the film when it had already progressed beyond this in TLJ. And she kills him like it’s a calculated thing when his guard is down and this whole thing is a mess. Now, it’s coming back to me! The order of events don’t make sense. The characterisation doesn’t make sense.

Kylo and Rey are fighting. Leia gives her life force to communicate something to her son and dies in the process. I don’t quite understand what she’s doing and why this means she has to die. She’s not force projecting like Luke did. How is this different from in TLJ when she says “Ben” then and he waivers about killing her? She was fine after that! I get that they’re working with what they could for Leia but nevertheless, if you’re going to include it in an actual film, it’s still got to have internal consistency. Not that this film cares. Anyway, Leia dies to make Kylo pause and then Rey kills him which seems very rushed and kind of mean but whatever. Then Rey immediately uses Chekov’s healing to bring him back to life and when she does he’s Ben without a scar. So this is all confusing to me. Did Leia redeam him by saying “Ben”? Did she do anything else that makes sense of her dying? Did Rey killing Kylo bring Ben back? Was it Han’s memory? A combination of all these factors?

But the order strikes me as off. The death of Kylo Ren to allow Ben Solo to live is good. Excellent content. But all that is needed to do this is for Kylo to die – meaningfully (which being randomly stabbed by his lover at the moment when he was changing does not quite feel to me) and be brought back to life – meaningfully. I’m not saying what Rey did wasn’t impressive but I don’t remember being overawed by the music and the cinematography here. This is in many ways, or should be, the turning point in the entire ST: the moment when Ben Solo is reborn. And the exact moment of it happening is uncertain. And does he need the moment with Han’s memory afterwards? I’m not saying it wasn’t very touching to see Han and to have their moment together but it nevertheless didn’t quite gell. Like so many things in this film, it’s a nice moment that is over too quickly and doesn’t quite hang together with coherent plotting and characterisation. The entire sequence is rushed with too much happening – fight, Leia, death, healing, Han, lightsaber, RANDOM FINN etc. etc. And in fact, this moment that should be climactic is then later overshadowed by later Ben healing Rey in the same way, a completely narratalogically meaningless act. But more on that later.

And I realise that in my hurry to get to this fight, I’ve forgotten Dark!Rey. Dark!Rey, like Rey Palpatine, is an idea that could and should be amazing and, apart from the cool graphics and a moment of gasp for effect, isn’t and fundamentally doesn’t work. Rey is struggling with her inner darkness throughout this film, something that was suggested in both TFA and TLJ, so I’m very much on board with it, and I think it’s important to see women on screen be angry and especially angry in a wild, ugly way. I think Daisy Ridley did a great job with that. But TROS attributed this anger and darkness to Palpatine rather that all the myriad and understandable reasons that Rey had for being angry. Perhaps that could work in some contexts as a metaphorical way of showing her anger but Palpatine is too present physically for that to stick. Instead, her characterisation is given wholesale to her genes and a male influence. This is… not great.

Confronting the dark part of one’s self is vitally important in the heroine’s journey. Only when the heroine has reconciled the dark parts of her psyche can the heroine be whole. TROS has worked out that this important but then hasn’t really known how to execute it. The physical manifestation of Dark!Rey for Light!Rey to fight is hellishly unsubtle and is also over so quick you quickly forget that she’s there. (Again, momentary effect is prioritised over anything that actually makes sense in terms of storytelling.) As a manifestation of Rey’s inner anger, she’s completely pointless. Rey fights her quickly but fighting Dark!Rey doesn’t result in Rey unifiying her dark impulses with her heroic self. She still has dark impulses throughout the film! In fact, she never succeeds in fully reconciling them. If defeating Dark!Rey had been a striking and climactic moment then that would work, but it doesn’t. She continues to fight Kylo straight afterwards and Kylo himself is in some respects (certainly in TLJ) a physical manifestation of what Rey fears and needs in herself. It is Kylo who is truly Rey’s dark double in TFA and TLJ. He tells her what she knows and cannot admit, forcing her to confront that in herself. He attracts her yet repels her. According to what is set up in TFA and TLJ, until Rey can both kill Kylo and reconcile with him, she is not conquering and reconciling with that part of herself. After all, they are two halves of one protagonist. But in TROS Kylo no longer seems to take that role, or not coherently. For example, he delivers information (“Rey, yer a Palpatine lol”) that she doesn’t in fact know. So it doesn’t work. And yet it also doesn’t work that Rey fights Dark!Rey and then immediately goes off and fights Kylo! One of those fights is redundant, perhaps both. If Dark!Rey had been a real character who does stuff, who tempts Kylo, who replaces Rey (Odile/Odette-like) then this would be meaningful. But she doesn’t. I know that some people are arguing that Rey in the subsequent fights is possessed by Dark!Rey but honestly? I did not see that in the film and I just do not think the film is sufficiently coherent to be that subtle about something that is such a major plot point! So she continues to struggle with darkness even after supposedly defeating Dark!Rey which is just nonsense in terms of mythology. She struggles all the way up to her confrontation with Palpatine.

So let’s get to that. Look, I’m going to be completely honest here: I have no idea what was going on. Palpatine was rigged up on a crane on creepy evil villain life support, there was a giant jam jar filled with pickled Snoke heads, Rey was there, Ben showed up having thrown away one lightsaber but then found another two lightsabers (there were a lot of lightsabers, I couldn’t keep track of which was which and why they were significant), the Knights of Ren were there to do a soundcheck for their upcoming gig IDEK, Finn wasn’t there which made a change and Palpatine wanted Rey to kill him so she would become super powerful until he didn’t want her to kill him. He was tempting her and used the standard threat of “I’m going to destroy the universe unless you take on these super dangerous powers to stop me but if you do then you’ll be evil yourself mwhahaha”. I’m not sure really how that benefits him. Was his end-game plan to build up a massive Sith Empire for his darling granddaughter to rule, ignore her for years in favour of corrupting Ben Solo via some dude called Snoke and then reappear from nowhere in order to die again so she could rule? Because that’s a really, really flawed plan. Like, my cullender is less holey than that plan. I may have got this wrong. But before anyone jumps in to “Well, actually” me, my point is valid: I’m an intelligent viewer who spends plenty of time thinking about SW. If I couldn’t follow the main reveal plan in the climactic film of the ST, then… that is a flaw in the writing and conception. It shouldn’t be that difficult!

Anyway, back to Rey. She is being tempted yet again (which she shouldn’t be by this point in the film or trilogy) and, briefly (though I’ve mostly given up on hope for this film by this point) I am engaged by her quandery. I think it would be really interested if she takes the power offered and fully embraces her Palpatine heritage – she becomes a Sith in order to save the lives of her friends! Perhaps Dark!Rey was just a warm up to seeing the real Rey transform into Dark!Rey. Then Ben has to save her! As she has saved him from being Kylo Ren, he will save her from being Dark!Rey! Balance. So I think that could be interesting and it raises some interesting moral questions about whether doing something bad for good reasons is ever justifiable. But of course Rey resists! Rey is not allowed to actually do anything bad in this movie! It’s infuriating! Rey is completely good. I think the message the film thinks it’s giving out is that Rey is more than her ancestry – that she is good despite being a Palpatine, that everyone has the power to move beyond their background. Unfortunately, that message was already there when she was Rey Nobody! And the actual message is that Rey is a static, pure character who despite apparently containing darkness is never in any way truly tempted by it or gives into it. Any narrative tension over whether she will succumb or do something interesting is very rapidly dismissed. Just as Chewie’s death is retconned and C-3PO gets his memory back.

Anyway Ben arrives and they somehow have two lightsabers (???? whatever) and stand and face Palpatine and I think at this point we need to talk about how this is just waaaaay less impressive on every level than them facing Snoke in TLJ. There was tension there and uncertainty and when they fought together it was genuinely breathtaking and surprising. There was no surprise about Ben and Rey facing Palpatine together, but there was a tired feeling of “Oh look, we’ve got to face off against another creepy old man who wants to hold onto power for evil after his time is well over. Oh well, I guess if we have to…” If nothing else, this sums up the Millenial experience very well! Ultimately, not only is Palpatine a confusing final villain, he’s also a boring one. The Chancellor in the PT was interesting on a political level, the Emperor was truly creepy as a foil to Darth Vader in the OT, but this fossil on life-support is neither scary nor original nor even particularly threatening.

That’s the thing with escalating the threats continuously – it becomes meaningless. Making the Boss bigger and badder and threatening the Universe instead of the Galaxy doesn’t make the drama more exciting, it just makes it less believable. It looks very impressive to have the entire sky filled with ships and the threat of Palpatine destroying everything but it’s also ultimately meaningless. A massive threat just means a massive reset button or deus ex force lightning. Superhero movies are very guilty of this terrible storytelling, so is Doctor Who. First London faces an alien threat, then England, then the planet, then the Galaxy, then the Universe… and where do you go from there? The audience doesn’t care about the world at large, they only care about our plucky little heroes and their lives. If Palpatine had said “I have Finn and Poe and if you don’t take on these Sith powers I’m going to murder them” the effect would have been the same, maybe even better because Rey’s dilemma would have been even more personal. Hey, another interesting idea: “I have Ben. Only way to save him is to adopt Sith powers!” Anyway.

So this confrontation is yet another less impressive copy of the throne room scene in TLJ. The lore also gets confusing here. Ben and Rey are tortured which makes no sense because doesn’t Palpatine want Rey alive? Not sure what he’s trying to achieve here except it makes our heroes look powerless. Then Rey takes on the force lightning and does some snazzy special effects to win the war very easily. So easily that you feel no emotion whatsoever at how easily this massive army of ships is instantly wiped out. (Side point, but I’m guessing there were lots of people on those ships and Rey’s just killed them all? And considering we’ve just got an admittedly half-baked but still a plot about the defection of storm troopers, isn’t this just a bit concerning? But Rey can do no wrong and it’s all for the greater good because this is the Light Side of the Force and she is All The Jedi so I guess we’ll just pass over this casual genocide on the part of our heroine.) This seems to kill Rey despite Palpatine telling her to do it to get more power a few minutes earlier. No seriously, isn’t this what happens? I’m so confused. At which point Ben force heals her as she force heals him and whereas she was fine and dandy after doing it, it kills him.

Which… okay. Is a thing that happens. It’s hella inconsistent. And makes no sense. But okay, I mean, okay. I wasn’t even sad. I was just like “…right.” And fortunately the film immediately moves on and completely fails to acknowledge Ben’s existence while triumphant music plays. So that’s a thing.

Remember how I said at the beginning of this meandering dissertation that I was always aware of Ben dying being a possible ending but it was the execution that failed here? Right! Well, the thing is that every time a death happens in the context of a hero’s journey, it’s got to mean something. In a world where people can be resurrected and, uh, SW is very much that world (or it is in TROS), then you can’t just die for no reason! And neither Rey nor Ben’s deaths made sense. Rey absolutely needs an underworld journey as part of her heroine’s journey but her death near the end of the film does not fulfil that criterion. An underworld journey is a way for a heroine to shed part of her behind, to learn something, and to confront herself. The cave scene was Rey’s journey to the underworld. Arguably, the scene on Pasaana where she learned force healing was another type of katabasis. Heck, you can argue that when she finds the lightsaber in TFA it’s a katabasis or when she ships herself to Ben in a coffin it’s another. Like. Rey has lots of metaphorical underworld journeys. But when she dies at the end of TROS she has already reunited with Ben, she has no darkness in her that needs to be purged because she never waivered from the light and when she is brought back she is the same person she was before. Unlike Ben who comes back from the dead literally a different person. So Rey’s death makes no sense either in terms of the magical world and powers in play but also for her heroine’s journey. Maybe she could have collapsed. Maybe the effort should have drained her and Ben of their Force powers – a sacrifice for using powers they shouldn’t have touched. That would have made sense and would have been entirely fitting. But death? Nope.

And Ben’s death consequently makes no sense. Force healing has been established within the very same movie to have no real consequences on the user (also similarly established in The Mandalorian) so Ben’s death makes less sense than anything else in the entire film. The internal logic of the film says that there are no consequences for force healing. And then it kills off someone who does it. Sadness is not the reaction to that; confusion is. And then on a mythological level, Ben shouldn’t die. Kylo has already died. And Ben has been reborn! I know it’s a meme, but Ben has done nothing wrong. Kylo has been punished for his actions and what is left is Ben. This is very, very clearly spelled out within the film. This makes Ben’s death a senseless tragedy that makes no sense, a final death in a film that has continually shown that death is not real or an ending. Except for Ben Solo. Because… I don’t know? I’ve managed to go 4812 words without mentioning redemption but I guess I can’t avoid it now. I’m actually not a big fan of redemption because it gets all thorny and becomes about morality and specifically Christian morality and I’m just… I’m tired of that. I’m a classicist and stories of classical mythology and classical heroism have nothing to do with redemption and being good and evil and I really see the Skywalkers as a kind of Greek tragedy lineage rather than people who have to be redeemed. I know Vader died changing his mind and killing the Emperor for his son but I don’t see that as redemption. That was a man who had done many awful things making a choice out of love at the very end of his life. And again, Ben saved Rey – this was an act of personal love and had nothing to do with the Galaxy. Redemption seems to be an active, ongoing thing that is about more than the purely personal. Vader wasn’t redeemed and neither was Ben – because he didn’t have a chance. And it all gets confused because, as I keep saying, Kylo Ren died!!!! On a mythical level, that’s all that’s needed! Ben Solo, on a mythic level, has nothing to prove, nothing to atone for, nothing for which he requires redemption. On the level that SW is also a story of politics, if Ben had lived, he would have had to reconcile his past actions as Kylo Ren with his present experience as Ben Solo – and it would have been fair if he had to pay a penalty in the human world. But not the death penalty. Because he has already paid that. Ben succeeds in reconciling and facing off his inner darkness in the way that Rey does not in this film. But he is then punished again and dies needlessly and shockingly in order to save Rey, who also shouldn’t have died.

It’s very unsatisfactory. On a mythic level, it really doesn’t make sense.

And I haven’t even mentioned the whole thing about if they are dyad (lol I keep reading this as dryad and getting a very weird set of mental images) or two halves of a protagonist or soulmates or whatever you want to call it where if one dies the bond just remains as a wound. This is a scenario where Rey and Ben have been very clearly set up as a pair animus/anima hero/heroine who belong together whether that is in life or death. I’ve just been reading about Brunnhild and Siegfried from the Nibelung Ring Saga – they both die at the end when they’ve finally been reunited but they are united in death. It’s sad but their death is inevitable after what’s happened to them and it’s sort of uplifting because they are together. This could definitely have worked for Rey and Ben. And considering death doesn’t stop you appearing multiple times and even doing cool stuff like lifting ships out of the sea, it wouldn’t even have been very sad. The mystical hero/heroine who cannot remain in society once their journey is complete is not uncommon. Look at Frodo going off with the Elves in a metaphor for death at the end of LotR where the more down-to-earth Sam is able to stay and rebuild. It would make total sense for Ben and Rey to be unable to integrate with society at the end of TROS whether that means simply exile or death. So long as they are together.

Anyway, they’re not together which makes the whole thing horribly unbalanced and unnervingly wrong on a profound level. The myth is broken! It simply does. not. work.

But if the ending for Ben and Reylo as a whole was disturbing, false, internally inconsistent and emotionally empty, that’s nothing to the ending Rey gets. Lots of people have already written about this so I’ll try to be brief. Rey has no connection to Tatooine. Rey is not allowed to grieve. Rey regresses to a childhood state, her very definite, spelled out future as a symbolic mother being absolutely aborted. Rey takes as a family name one that she has no personal connection. Rey is left with absent friends and nobody but the ghosts of Luke (who she didn’t like) and Leia to talk to in the role of weirdly incestuous sterile parents. So I guess this is a win for the Luke/Leia shippers?

Okay, I just need to rant a moment. (Yes, this is 5556 words of ranting but you’ve got this far – indulge me?) I’ve seen several takes from people I follow who aren’t Reylos saying that this is a great ending for Rey because she has a family and I’m just like ARE YOU EFFING SERIOUS?????? Are you ACTUALLY trying to tell me that living alone on a barren, desert planet reminiscent of where she lived as a child before she heard the call to adventure, where she was symbolically asleep with nobody but the GHOSTS OF SIBLINGS for company and ABSENT FRIENDS is FINDING A FAMILY???????????? JUST KILL HER ALREADY – she’s ALREADY DEAD!!!!! You want to make me feel Rey at the end even if Ben is dead? Show her surrounded by her found family in the Resistance and show her WORKING WITH CHILDREN?????????????? IT. WOULD. NOT. BE. HARD. TO. DO. THAT. AND. MAKE. IT. UPLIFTING. But this -this is just painful, truly painful and insulting. And don’t give me this crap that she’s not living there, she’s just there temporarily to bury the lightsabers and leave and go back to her friends. WHAT ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT. This is the ENDING of a NINE MOVIE SAGA. The ending matters???? And the ending is of Rey alone with the droid she rescued two movies back staring at some binary suns that only matter to the audience and not to her. THE FILM DOES NOT TELL US THAT SHE IS GOING TO LEAVE AND MEET HER FRIENDS. THE FILM DOES NOT TELL US THAT. IT DOES NOT IMPLY THAT. So this is a bloody stupid argument.

Yeah, I cracked. I don’t regret it. This is so infuriating I actually have literally nothing to say about “Rey Skywalker”. Like, whatever. The film’s already done its worse. Just… whatever. Who cares at this point? It’s meaningless. I laughed in despair at the cinema screen and was glad it was over.

The fact is, according to the heroine’s journey, this isn’t the end of the story. It makes sense that within 24 hours of the film premiering, AO3 was filling up with “fix-it fics” where Rey goes to the World Between Worlds to get Ben back. Because that’s what heroines do. They save their loved ones. They do it patiently and through endurance. And they always succeed. And unlike heroes who go to the underworld to save their wives (cf Orpheus), heroines who go to get their man succeed. This story needs Rey, like Psyche, to go save Ben. She hasn’t finished her heroine’s journey. In fact, she is in many ways back where she started. Her attempts to integrate and confront her darkness have been confused and ultimately meaningless. She has not unified permanently with her lover yet. She has not become either a literal or symbolic mother. There is a stage in the heroine’s journey where she retreats to where she comes from for reflection and growth. That is acceptable. But that is not the ending!!!

And to place this ending of the film, with Rey smiling and saying “Rey Skywalker” as if this means something and some triumphant music over the top alongside what so many viewers feel instinctively, namely that the myth is incomplete and broken, leaves the audience – or at least it left me – feeling cheated and empty and bemused about why it feels so wrong. Ultimately Ben dead and Rey pregnant would make more narrative sense than the sterile and barren and infantilised ending we were given. And that was just about the worst case scenario of bad writing that we ever thought could happen.

The myth is broken. Good night.

(Tune in soon to the much shorter Part Three where I discuss everything else that isn’t Reylo related that is wrong with this movie.)

#star wars #reylo #tros spoilers #the rise of skywalker #anti tros #kylo ren #ben solo #rey #meta #sw meta #i haven't read this through #it's after midnight #but i feel helluva lot better for having finally written it

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