#s12 speculation

[vosling]

Eagar spending quality time with his mark Mikey :3

The sleepy bitch disease is real this weekend. Going to hibernate and paint cats and fish and maybe refine that piece of H being horrible and controlling. I am NOT going to paint my latest nightmare 😤 even though it was so fucked up and fun (very impressed with my brain, it was nasty) and it would make an amazing comic... but I'm not going to do it because it'd take way too much time and I'd get too perfectionistic about it

cats and fish cats and fish cats and fish fish fish

[dandelionjack]

actually actually… buckle in for some more unnecessarily detailed baseless speculation*. because it’s fun and there’s still 2 weeks to go (*stop accusing me of TJLCery i’m going to cry)

so, since rogue is the pre-finale episode… as a pattern those tend to begin in the manner of your average doccy who story, but finish with a devastating plot twist denouement to segue into the two-parter at the end. best examples of this are utopia and (gotta hand it to s12 here) the haunting of villa diodati. “it’s a celebrity historical! byron and the shelleys are here! oh and oops… what’s that? that’s the sound of the doctor making a fatal mistake that will inevitably lead her to the narrative climax…”

now what i’m getting at is. what if we’ve all been looking in the wrong place and rogue, not TLORS, is the episode by the end of which the doctor figures out that they’re stuck inside a TV show that’s been remixing old stories from their former adventures? “bridgerton! regency era! jane austen! flirting! ballgowns! dancing! oh and oops… what’s that? that’s the sound of doctor making a tragic discovery that will inevitably lead him to the narrative climax…”

here’s how this ties in to the popular “jonathan groff = recast harkness” theory. now, i USED to be an ardent proponent of it, but i no longer believe he’s actually playing pre-TEC/TDD captain jack, or any era captain jack at all, really. what he is playing, or so i gather apropos of crumbs and wisps of information, is a remarkably harkness-like character. just alike enough to make us (and the doctor!!) wonder: am i getting deja vu?? has rtd devolved into a hack who’s been reusing his old ideas and hoping we won’t notice?

no. look at the sneaky incorporation of The Doctor Dances’ title in the DWM paragraph above. he’s hoping we do.

it’s been pretty much confirmed by ~inside sources~ (read: leaks on reddit from ages ago) that groff’s playing either a time agent or former time agent — judging by the description above, it’s “former time agent turned bounty hunter”. charming, handsome rizzlord fella from the future (what’s that blaster in this hand? could it be from the villengard factories?), adept at blending in with a british historical period despite sounding noticeably american, actively involved in the social life of that historical era, morally grey and antagonistic towards the doctor at first, yet strangely alluring… sexual tension heavily implied… we’re supposed to feel like we’ve seen all this before. this man is a Not-Harkness.

change the doctor’s life forever is the key sentence here. as the doctor realises how remarkably similar groff-“rogue” is to jack when he first met him, and how the circumstances of their meeting almost rhyme too, he’ll notice some more odd things.

he’ll notice. he’ll notice how ruby looks like clara, waited for him while she aged like amy did, called her mum from a future space station looking down through a panoramic window at a planet like rose had, how their relationship is a best friendship/sibling-esque like with donna … he’ll notice how many of their adventures together seem to retread steps already walked. and then the puzzle will click into shape and it will “change the doctor’s life forever”: he’ll discover that this is a puppet show and go searching for whoever’s pulling the strings.

Not-Harkness “Rogue” Groff is the catalyst. the final straw.

or maybe not. maybe this is complete waffle i pulled out of my arse. only time will tell

[zmediaoutlet]

Re: prev tags on the Sam driving post “I wonder if he and dean ever argue about gas money”

I hate that I even know the answer to this

but there’s canonical evidence they do.

In S12 (I don’t remember the exact ep but I had the screenshot on my phone) Sam’s email inbox is visible for a few moments on screen, & one of the emails from Dean is “you owe me for the gas I paid for last week”:

that's hysterical. And very dumb. Because it's on screen I'm forced to try to take the text as text as I always do, and I'm just gonna have to believe this is some kind of ongoing semi-injoke semi-bickerfest where they argue about money and one of them says 'why does it matter our money isn't even real' and one of them says 'it's kinda real, i mean we are wrecking mr dead guy's credit' and one of them says 'oh, what, are we balancing his checkbook too' and then you get shit like this, lol. Especially by s12! It's not like they're still hustling pool, money means nothing! What silly billies.

Separately, that screenshot also proves that: apparently Dean can't stop talking to Sam regardless of medium -- you live in the same house, why tf are you emailing each other -- that Sam helps with Impala part shopping, which is adorable -- and, I'm just gonna speculate here, Dean signed up Sam for the Biggerson's loyalty program as a prank. I hope they get birthday coupons.

[thefalloutwiki]

First, a more serious one: To all staff "What do you consider to be the hardest part of your job on the wiki, and what is your favorite part of your wiki job?"

And now, here's a fun one I've been asked in an interview before: To all staff "If you were an object, what object would you be and why?"

Answers Below the cut!

V13Kobold: The hardest part of my job is actually when someone disagreeable comes onto the wiki just to cause problems. Not that I can't handle it, it's the arguing/complaining/trolling (aggressive) that gets to me sometimes. The best part is the community, as cliche as it is. The sharing of interests, advice, and ideas overall is fun. 🙂

An object? Honestly, I'd be a Gecko (I know that's a creature) or a Deathclaw Mounted Head.

Findabair: The hardest part is keeping up with new content, the best part is the gratification from having properly sourced articles.

RurinGas: The hardest part would probably be just keeping up with all the information that comes out! While to a casual glance, Fallout might be about 8 or 9 games and 1 TV series, there are littler-known games and releases that are all constantly ticking away and releasing new content, it's a challenge to keep track! and thats just all the proper stuff, let alone our mod and community spaces too! My favourite part however would probably be the chance to do something creative, to find a problem and immediately think "Oh yeah, I can fix this brilliantly", it's like a jigsaw where everything juuuuussssttt slots into place perfectly, and you can just crack your fingers and lean back with a drink and think to yourself "good work"

Hrmmmmmmm..... For the sake of fun, I'll limit myself to Fallout objects xP I think I'd like to be a bottlecap. You get traded the world over, get to see the whole nation from a random person's pocket, and see all sorts of things. And, in the possible event you get made into a bottlecap mine, you go out with Passion! (And, In my experience, take someone down with you too. Whoever put the bottlecap mine in Starlight Drive-in is a fiend!) MeatServo: The time pressure often involved if something breaks and genuine, applied problem solving. Aren't we already objects in a way? Rubbinmahbelly: Probably trying to get DPL tables working the way I want. There's a reason 9 time about of 10 I ping Rurin and have her so it. Best part is interacting with folk and makin really good friends. A funny statue of a dog in a hat. NarratorJack: The worst part of the job is the more technical aspects of the wiki, My favorite part of my job is just talking to community members and shit Probably a computer, I like computers. AstralAbraxas: The hardest part I think comes to putting the pieces of the fallout puzzle together, sort of speak. Connecting the dots to make previous speculation into real or working content for the wiki. Is that the Loveland frog I see? Probably! But because it's not confirmed in writing anywhere, it remains speculation. Jersey Devil on the S12 scoreboard? Yes! And now I can say for a fact it is, because now they're in the game! Little things like that to be able to discern between using real world knowledge/content and things confirmed in some way by in game content is always a welcome challenge and something I love to discuss. If I were an object, I'd want to be the Brahmin Plush! He's so cute! KateAces: Keeping up with new content is a challenge, making sure it’s correct and complete is important and a very fulfilling feeling when it’s done, honestly the best feeling is seeing people use the site or hearing that it was helpful for someone.

I’d be a pre war neon sign, maybe even one that names a town like Novac

[lesbenson]

Look I know it's Twitter and it's speculation, but it's some INTRIGUING speculation.

https://x.com/benslurrsho3/status/1785721725226754187

the gif usage really does it. dw is an asshole truly but i really think what chris said in the time after he left / before coming back is the truest stuff we’ll hear — he wanted higher pay (recurring theme in the dwcu so it tracks 😭) and i think he was just done with the show in a way mariska obviously wasn’t and isn’t and can’t be. he used to say he didn’t feel like he had anything left to do on the show, and when he talked about coming back for oc he was very clear that elliot needed to be a different character in some way for it to be believable and doable. i think it was like he could be convinced to stay on for s13 Only w a pay increase, but otherwise he was ready to move on. given where eo was in s12 (throuple at best) i’m sure dw wasn’t planning on any motion anytime soon and while it certainly wouldn’t have hurt the show to pay chris more and keep him on, it seems like there were a lot of shifts in that timeframe and dw was trying to really change up the show. i think dw was letting eo hit a wall and letting the chris thing blow up as an excuse. we know dw will always fire someone rather than keep paying them w the exception of mariska, who he won’t fire but undermines nonetheless. if she couldn’t convince him to keep kelli on last season as executive producer, i can’t imagine she could convince him to keep chris on Or that chris could be convinced to stay fr. not that it’s her responsibility but just like. this thread implies a huge idol thing between dw and mh that i think is actually more based in warrens writing of 2.0 liv. if dw actually worshiped mh like that a lot of things would be different lol.

also wasn’t there a rumor that they wrote liv leaving after elliot quits and then scrapped that bc m didn’t want to leave ?

tldr i do think it’s dw’s fault but i also think it was a lot more money hungry and emotionally detached

[bigmouthlass]

John's Journal is non canon. It contains information and speculation the guys either never knew or learned much later. It also contains character beats that would have recontextualized Sam and Dean's memories of him in ways that it clearly did not. Additionally, if Mary had read this version in S12, her interactions with the guys would have been very different-- she either never knew or didn't accept how thoroughly John fell apart until the Bevel bitch shoved it in her face.

[restlesshush]

I see you, executive story editor Steve Yockey, getting a Gadreel reference into 12x19 as set up for your Twigs and Twine and Tasha Banes. I see you.

[floralmotif]

Better Together (SPN Speculation)

This took longer than I anticipated. I’m still not sure if I’ve covered everything I wanted to cover and I had to add some stuff since 12.21, but I’m posting it so it gets posted before the finale. It is a massive info dump, and I’m sorry for all the technical stuff, I promise it gets explained in there. I couldn’t figure out how to truncate it without outlining it like a novel. I wish I had time for that, but I barely have time to outline my specs atm. I lso don’t want to say that everything I say here is absolutely definitive, it’s just based on what I’ve observed and the patterns I’ve noticed. There are a lot of other factors that feed into this one that are also worth exploring but I don’t really know how to include them without over complicating everything, so this is the main set that I’m personally focusing on.

I dunno if anyone remembers this, but back when I metad about 12.12, I said I wished I could have done it in video form because the information better lent itself to a visual medium. Yeah, this is another one of those times. Someday I may modify this into a script and do that, but the season finale is basically today, so here goes.

Some of you may have seen a post go around where @k-vichan, @drsilverfish and @angelswatchingover​ discuss what Alicia is and the questions surrounding her current state. (I can’t get it to route to one of their blogs, but check them out)

@k-vichan​ mentioned something that this series has reminded me of since S5, and had themes which have prevailed through the show for a long time.(S7 on, especially.) I went back to watch it after I saw the post, to confirm with myself what I remembered. It had been a long time since I saw the movie, and I wanted to be sure before I wrote about it.

Of all the other works that exist, no other that I know of more closely seems to resemble the themes and message of Supernatural more than the 1995 film Ghost in the Shell.

I have no idea if this is on purpose or if they just both came across the same progression on their own (inspired by the Hegel dialectic) but they both share some common philosophies that have shaped my view of SPN since I’ve watched it, and especially this season. Even without having seen the movie in a long time, these thought processes and progressions seemed to prevail. If there is some real influence between them, what would it mean?

The below place contains spoilers for the ending of Ghost in the Shell, They’re further down though. I’ll mark them. Sadly, they’re kind of important for my speculation, but you can skip them if you want.

But first, let’s talk about (a vastly simplified version of) Hegel (in relation to narrative mostly), theming and message.

For those of you who don’t know who Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel is, for my purposes, he was a German Philosopher and a man who looked like several instances of Jacob Marley. He had several ideas about how history and social constructs work. His ideas have been adapted over the years to suit fictional storytelling and they do an extremely good job of it. The great wiki creature sums up the work of Hegel thusly:

Hegel's principal achievement is his development of a distinctive articulation of idealism sometimes termed "absolute idealism",[16]in which the dualisms of, for instance, mind and nature and subject and object are overcome. His philosophy of spirit conceptually integrates psychology, the state, history, art, religion, and philosophy. His account of the master–slave dialectic has been highly influential, especially in 20th-century France.[17] Of special importance is his concept of spirit (Geist: sometimes also translated as "mind") as the historical manifestation of the logical concept and the "sublation" (Aufhebung: integration without elimination or reduction) of seemingly contradictory or opposing factors; examples include the apparent opposition between nature and freedom and between immanence and transcendence. Hegel has been seen in the 20th century as the originator of the thesis, antithesis, synthesis triad;[18] however, as an explicit phrase, this originated with Johann Gottlieb Fichte.[19]

Already seeing some parallels? Good. (it’s ok if you don’t. Wikipedia likes to word everything like a scientific abstract.)

I know it says the triad name was attributed to a different dude, and that’s true, but in terms of our usage, we’re gonna keep dragging Hegel around with us on this journey because he’s associated with the philosophy behind it. So come, Hegel, you’re not getting out of this so easily.

The definitions for each of these instances are thus:

The thesis is an intellectual proposition.The antithesis is a critical perspective on the thesis.The synthesis solves the conflict between the thesis and antithesis by reconciling their common truths, and forming a new proposition

Sound a bit like SPN’s s1-5, s6-11 and ... now? Yeah, there might be a reason for that. Not sure if it’s on purpose, but considering how everywhere the dialectic is in writing, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was come across and adopted at some point. At least to an extent. (also just freaking read that description of them there, that’s so pointed, it pangs at my fingers when typing).

One the people who brought the Hegel dialectic into mainstream use in media was Blake Snyder, most notably in his book Save the Cat. The Book has been fairly influential since its publishing and it’s been used as a basis for many films and tv shows. I don’t know if the book influenced SPN, but it may have (the book was released in 2005). Whether the book was a direct influence or not, there are certainly similarities. The show may be taking influence from Hegel directly, it may have evolved on its own as part of the human approach to storytelling or, it may have came from another work influenced by Hegel… like Ghost in the Shell.

The longer something exists the more it has to explain itself. This isn’t true of all media, but it’s generally true of anything that wants to have a consistent, ongoing, story.

This is why shorts are allowed to be weird as hell and they get away with it, and it’s why SPN has been deconstructing itself for the last several years. It’s also probably why everything is people.. Other than because budget. If this whole thought process is true, this season will mark the beginning of act 3, the beginning of the synthesis part of the arc, and if my speculation is correct, the beginning of sublation or aufhebung as Hegel used it.

For our purposes, and as it's generally used in media, sublation here means “assimilate.” To merge two opposing factors into a single entity, the two factors may not be even in scope. From what I can gather, the message of the entire series is “humanity must learn to accept the aspects of itself that it runs from, that it others and demonizes as part of itself.” That may sound long, but messages in works are often sentences like that.

Reconciling the old to embrace the new” has been what myself and some others have been calling the theme of this season. This fits into the message I’ve derived from the show by giving the characters the incentive to try new ideas and to learn from what they’ve experienced instead of relying entirely on past rhetoric. Not everything about the past is bad, but weeding out what’s preventing positive progress and merging it to new ideas which better accept the real world is a step in progressing towards a culmination of the message. In order to do that, you have to dance the destiel a little. Cas is literally the ideals of the Winchester brothers, of “humanity” as represented by them. That’s his character role. He’s also a supernatural being, linking him to the idea that “the ideas that progress are within what we have deemed other”. This aspect of his character is enforced throughout the series and is come into direct text on multiple occasions. Dean is in love with a supernatural being that represents new ideals of progress and acceptance. To me this is what destiel ultimately is, or will be. Humanity (Dean) accepting that which it was taught to other (the Supernatural (queer) love of Cas, ie new ideals) as part of itself in order to progress as a person (species) to a better future. If one aspect of humanity (Dean) accepts it (culminates his love somehow), then the other (Sam), will be forced to accept it in turn because Dean loving Cas would give Sam a visual representation of reality being different than his upbringing and experiences had previously presented. Even in that paragraph, you can see elements of the Hegel loop poking through. You can also see some reflection on the show itself and its audience…

So, what does all this mean for the rest of the series? Obviously add sadness and pain where necessary. This is SPN after all, but as long as nothing directly opposes this narrative, this seems to be the direction they’re going here. Eileen’s death was really idiotic and broke a lot of narrative rules, but it doesn’t directly refute anything. It’s a single instance and it may not even be true (it probably is, but man, either Bucklemming eated more purple berries than usual, they really shared the wealth, their entire purpose on the writing team is to sew misdirection, or something’s up here… possibly involving that last one.)

Below are a what seems to be where this is going in some form or another using the Hegel Loop as a means for the message:

1) Dean and Sam must face and reconcile with their pasts on all sides. Their past with themselves, their past with each other, their past with the important people in their life, their concept of family and how it has affected their lives and so on. Since everything must support the themes of a work if it wants to follow the rules, this idea has to prevail with every force in the current canon. Thus: Supernatural(Angels) vs Humanity(SamnDean), BMoL vs Hunters (Also mirror each other). Similar to their “force concepts”, Sam doesn’t really understand Dean, just like the BMoLs don’t really understand hunters. They think they do, they’re very efficient and rely on heavy research and technology, but their intel sucks. Similar also to Dean, the hunters aren’t generally so keen on lending themselves to the BMoLs. They believe they have reason not to, and so too does Dean believe he has reason to keep Sam from knowing his true self.

2) The two ideals of the show must also be addressed and reconciled/embraced. I said before and earlier that Cas = the ideals on the show. And yeah, he does from what I’ve gathered. From s4 on, he has always mirrored the way the Winchester's and thus “humanity” operate on a thematic level as time as gone on.(Especially Dean, the “heart of humanity’) This is because he’s the show’s “Love interest”. That’s what the Love Interest does but boy, does he take it to new and interesting levels! Like Dean and Sam, he still has self worth issues, he still has issues with his understanding of family and where he belongs, what he can be trusted with, what he’s for. If you look closely, you can see him mirroring a lot of decisions on the sides of both brothers. As of now, they both are starting to embrace a new way of looking at things, and in turn, Cas is experiencing situations that challenge his beliefs and combine both perspectives into a single progression to “better ways”.

Mary on the other hand, holds the old ideals of the show. She is basically s4 Cas and because she wasn’t around to experience all the changes, she carries the old show with her. She is what Cas could have been without the influence of the Winchesters. Still headstrong and rebellious, but falling back on old ideas and operations. Dean and Sam have truly changed Cas, and Mary is a testament to that. Like Cas as well, when she was sent back to Earth from heaven, she rebelled, and we’re seeing her s4 and 5. Most likely she won’t last any longer because the show won’t need her to prove a point anymore, but what she represents is pretty clear to me. Mary’s mirror of Cas is twisted. It has a flipped perspective with the Winchester’s being the original family and the BMoLs (Angels) being where she originally puts her faith because they share her ideals. Technically the Winchester’s held Cas’ too. His feelings of heart and freedom were found with them, but because of Mary’s situation and old ideals, she runs to the BMoLs instead.

Add Mick and some nigh omnipresent Cas references and you have a season about Cas, a season about ideals where Dean, Cas and Sam try to confront themselves, each other and the concept of family and duty that they were all fed stringently throughout their lives and times being with each other.

Those above concepts there are the thesis and the antithesis incarnate. They are the current state of affairs bumping against the old ways. This is their sticking point, they are coming to a head and they must. The pics and promos from the finale seem to enforce the idea that they will deal with the confrontation of a sort of reality, just as they have been slowly recognizing the need to confront their own hidden, unspoken realities.

3) At some point Cas, Dean and Sam will have to “embrace” each other in however they plan on doing that. They will not leave all of their past selves but they will all move forward to something better and new.

4) Dean will probably tell Cas he loves him or some other gesture by the end of the season. Gotta visualize/solidify those themes, m’boy! Your medium says so. In turn, Sam will be forced to learn to understand a side of Dean he wanted to believe didn’t exist and that he may have been actively hiding from because it would mean some things in his past would take on a new color with some possibly saddening meanings for him.

*coughs* I will always be a little devilishly amused at the character roles in this season and how they relate to the show and fandom directly…

5) Most likely Rowena and Crowley will reconcile at some point as well, but it’s hard to tell. They may resolve their issues by the end of the season in some form or another. Crowley mirrors a lot of characters and Rowena is sort of dark Mary, so their resolution will likely follow a similar trajectory + Crowley and Gavin feels or something. Mary’s probably gonna ascend like Gavin did. 12.21 and some general themes with Crowley overall have lead me to suspect that he’s holding the cards to this new reality. He does kind of mirror a lot of people with Rowena filling in the gaps, so him being the one to reveal something would make sense.

6) The BMoLs and the hunters will probably merge in some way. There’s likely a reason we felt there should be more names on that table. We will soon see Dean and Sam act as generals of the hunters… if that ends how I think it will, we will end with more names on that table and a defended legacy/Bunker. They will take the good of the BMoLs and incorporate it into the hunting world. Kind of a new Bobby network but with more stuff.

So then what does the finale entail?

That’s where Ghost in the Shell and Alicia may give us a clue.

If you have not already seen this movie, I highly recommend it. Its influence is seen in all sorts of places. A recent example is Westworld. It is a bit gory, so if that’s really not your cup of tea, fair enough. The following contains spoilers for the movie and it will affect how I address what happened with Alicia and how I think it may reflect on the ending of the season. You are free to skip it, but it may be a bit confusing after. If you want to skip this section, press CTRL or Command + F and search “spoilers over” in the box.

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Ghost in the Shell involves Major Motoko Kusanagi, a cyborg who has feelings of limitation by her perspective. She believes that there is more to the world and she wants to experience and understand it.

Kusanagi: “There are countless ingredients that make up the human body and mind, like all the components that make up me as an individual with my own personality. Sure I have a face and voice to distinguish myself from others, but my thoughts and memories are unique only to me, and I carry a sense of my own destiny. Each of those things are just a small part of it. I collect information to use in my own way. All of that blends to create a mixture that forms me and gives rise to my conscience. I feel confined, only free to expand myself within boundaries.”

She is part of a Black Ops unit that investigates a hacker called The Puppetmaster who has been controlling people through their “ghosts” to do its bidding. “Ghosts” are basically brains or minds. In this world, cybernetics and biological aspects are fairly integrated but are not considered their own beings. They’re more augmentations for the humans rather than individuals.. In most cases. The people who are controlled by the Puppet Master are given false memories. They have no idea who they are or what their goals really are.

Over the course of the film, The Major and her companions investigate several ghost hacked people and the concept of identity. Eventually they learn that The Puppetmaster is actually a program created by an intelligence branch called Section 6.

The Major learns that The Puppetmaster has gained its own intelligence and has sought her out to merge with her and complete its perspective. It lacks the things a biological being has and has the vast knowledge of the internet. At the end of the movie, the two achieve sublation and combine into a single being, neither The Major, nor the Puppetmaster.

Before the merge, Kusanagi is hesitant. She fears losing herself to the merge and wants to remain an individual.

Kusanagi: You talk about redefining my identity. I want a guarantee that I can still be myself.

Puppet Master: There isn't one. Why would you wish to? All things change in a dynamic environment. Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you.

This and their inevitable merge may sound like just a narrative decision, but really it seems like a decision based on philosophy of the work and its themes. The issue of stagnation. Ghost in the Shell argues that humanity would inbreed stagnation if it stayed the same (sound familiar?) and only change can save it, even if it stops being human as we know it. An interesting thing to me about the above is that it sorta addresses something directly stated in text in SPN:

Gah, there’s no transcript for 12.19 yet. Paraphrase time!

“Something something he’ll lose what makes him special”

If there is an influence in Ghost in the Shell, no he won’t. I know there are some people that want Cas to stay an angel, and I get that. It’s a fundamental part of him to many people, but depending on how they culminate Cas’ “sublation” with the Winchesters, he may become human as part of that metaphor. Just as the show may change form, but still be itself. According to GitS, he can’t fear change to preserve “what makes him special” When Kelly is talking about the Nephilim, there’s a decent chance she’s really talking about Cas… and his birth.. As a human. She’s afraid something that is integral to him will be lost, but from what Alicia showed us, he will still be the same Cas.. just sans powers… and maybe + some emotions.

So what does this mean for SPN? Alicia gave us a possible clue. She became a “ghost in the shell” when her heart was placed into the twig doll, but she retained her caring nature and her memories. As far as anyone would need to know, Alicia is Alicia. It’s possible she could be controlled, but since the ring is what controls her, I doubt Max would ever utilize it. We will probably never see them again, because they have given us what they were meant to narratively and them staying longer would mean they would have to explain themselves beyond that point. If we see them again, expect some weirdness.

Even when Alicia was placed into the doll, she still looked out for Max’s well being. Even when Cas was influenced by the Nephilim, he was still concerned with Dean’s well being. In a way, Cas has been a “ghost in the shell” for quite some time, with the question about vessels. With Alicia’s gesture, I’d say it’s pretty safe to say Cas’ body is his and Alicia’s is hers even if they can be controlled. Even if they can lose their free will, it’s not lost entirely. Even when she her body, she kept being herself in an entirely different body… made from fundamentally “lesser” materials, she retained her heart and what made her, her. Adding heart and humanity to a vessel, still retains the heart of that person. Even if Cas is no longer an angel, he will retain that heart he has. Even if the show takes a new form, if it retains its heart, it will remain the show.

Cas is currently further possessed by the nephilim, but he’s still in there. And the nature of the apparent themes means it has to release him eventually.

On that note, if 12.21 gave me anything(other than deep confusion regarding what the hell is happening and several conspiracy theories), it’s further evidence of a possible GitS influence with Mary being brainwashed to do the bidding of the BMoLs to do their bidding and slowly remove her memories in favor of memories that suit them. In GitS terms, she’s been Ghost Hacked.

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Spoilers over. Below are what I think all of this means for the ending of season regarding Cas and Dean since they seem to be the focus of assimilation. It depends on what the show thinks about the nature of Hegel, but each of the following scenarios is possible based on what I’ve been able to figure out:

Cas and Dean will occupy the same body: As a possibility to save Dean’s muffins from burning in the finale like Gadreel did for Sam in s9? Sure. As a permanence? Doubt it.

Cas becomes human but gets a new vessel. This is mostly just unlikely because people would hate it. Again, possible if temporary but TPTB, I do not recommend stretching this over a long period. Alicia looking exactly like herself makes this pretty unlikely.

Cas and the Nephilim won’t stay merged.. That’s redundant. He can’t “merge with humanity” while merged with a half luci humanoid… no. The kid is symbolic of Cas, Sam and possibly Eve. Because of Cas’ current nature and the nature of the supernatural and humanity and their sort of “forbidden” merging. Cas and the Nephilim are one atm, because their stories are. Which gives further credence to some sort of change. The kid is basically “past present and future” incarnate. It contains all of those elements at the moment, but future is its focus, same with Cas and the themes surrounding him from what I’ve gathered. Its relation to Sam is pretty obvious, since he’s been related to “a potential” evil demon child for much of the series. It not being evil makes sense for his character arc.

I have no idea what will happen to the kid. There’s evidence for a lot of things. Some I like better than others. They’re mostly personal preferences at this point.

Cas remains as he is and voices that he is himself. If GitS or Hegel in general are an influence and the showrunners like this philosophy, this probably won’t be what happens. I know there are a lot of people who want Cas to stay an angel for various reasons, and they can believe that if they want, but it just doesn't’ seem to be the way the story is going. I could be totally wrong and may have missed something, but the nature of stories is change. Cas can’t go back to being full angel, not permanently anyway. Also, if the show’s message is as I’ve deduced, he’ll have to be human in order to fully be accepted as part of humanity. If he powers up, expect him to power all the way down. Cas is a character and characters serve the story and vise versa, they are locked in an inseparable state with their themes. Cas is the themes in this story, he can’t be a weird penguin forever. That’s not climactic enough for the medium he exists in. If it were a book, it would be more likely, but it’s unlikely in a filmed work. The show can’t be a weird penguin forever either, especially if the GitS influences are correct(the non-reductable part is a factor, but if the message is thus, everything is humans). Again, I could be wrong, and I don’t want to discourage other interpretations, this just seems to cover the most bases from what I’ve observed.

I’m still operating under the idea that 12.12 is a microcosm of the season and possibly the series up to this point, so we’ll see how that plays out. I expect Crowley to save the day somehow, some dramatic declarations, Cas injury and probably Mary injury, some fiddling with anachronistic presentation/perspective on reality and a prince of hell. For this particular exercise, I was more interested in what happens, rather than how we get to the happening.

Whatever way Cas ends up physically, I think it’s safe to say the show thinks Cas and Dean better together, even if the culmination isn’t permanent at first.

[girlasterisk]

hyperventilating about the s15 promo of dean sitting on the ground with his head in his hands with a fUcKiN bLoOdY hAndPriNT on his, yes you guessed it, lefT sHouLdER

like i cry every time i watch cas’s death in s12 i’m not gonna be able to handle this

and ya y’all know how hard i clown for destiel and i’m not saying they’re gonna make it canon but i’m not not saying that either but that’s not what i was gonna say...i’m just JDENJSJDJR PANICKING BC ITS EITHER RLLY SAD DESTIEL OR RLLY SAD ‘FRIENDSHIP BUDDY GUYS BEING DUDES’ BUT EITHER WAY ITS FUCKING SAD AND IM NOT PREPARED FOR EITHER

so basically what i’m saying is if...destiel, then sadness ensues, and if not destiel we will see it anyway and sadness will ensue

in conclusion i’m gonna riot bc they out here playing with my feelings and i’m just not emotionally stable enough to handle that

why tf did i watch this show,,, like neena are kiDdinG me? u voluntEeRed for this? dumbass

[mad-as-a-box-of-frogs]

Until you forced me to get back in the game, I'd tried to forget about Lucifer. I loathe him, and I loathe that I had any part in letting him out of the pit he belongs in. [...]  But if you get Lucifer cornered and find yourself in need, I'm there.

Rowena McLeod in The Foundry (12x03): Best of SPN Ladies [245 / 327]

[and-you-will-obey-me]

The episode is called "The timeless children"

So where's the other timeless child huh??? The Master thinks he is a regular timelord who gained the ability to regenerate from the Doctor's DNA, but is he really???

Remember that boy who pushed the Doctor off a cliff the first time she regenerated? Guess who I thought that could be

[cosmically-dreaming]

Personally, I absolutely loathe the whole Chosen One trope, but honest to the stars I still really liked the s12 finale. The Doctor doesn't remember. The Doctor didn't know. They walked their path without a doubt that they were a Gallifreyan child just like everyone else.

What I'm trying to say is: the whole Timeless Child thing works for me because the Doctor doesn't need to own it to validate their identity - it adds to their story and lore without taking away their core fibers of personality, without adding a super exclusive reason why they behave the way they do - they just stole a TARDIS and ran to the stars.

[doctorwhommm]

I recon the fams gonna leave at the end of this series, something similar to marthas exit hopefully ?? It would be cool to have a little thing in the next series where theyre back, like the atmos episodes in s4

[rinas-ninjas]

Hey Rina, what do you think about the new shorts for Prime Empire?

I love them!!

I’m a big fan of AR/mindscape/wonderland stories and this season feels like it’s shaping up to have those vibes!!

And even if it doesn’t I do have a keyboard to fix that ;)

[helianthus21]

About the “Why does it have to be one or the other” line.. I’m not sure Mary actually wants both or if she just thinks she doesn’t exactly have a choice in this matter. Because she wanted to get out of the life before, but that didn’t work out so well. I have a feeling, now that she was the one who said this out loud, she’ll be the one who’ll be proven wrong. That she won’t get both. I do think they’ll go a positive-ish way with her though, so maybe she’ll retire for good in the end... I just hope that line is also positive foreshadowing for the season finale, also for other characters maybe? Like what I already said I wished for Cas and the angels, and for Sam and Dean it’s already been foreshadowed since at least 11x04 with the “something more” line..

[mittensmorgul]

Could you possibly expand on what you meant when you said "what we’ve actually been seeing on screen over the course of the TWO ADDITIONAL SEASONS that have elapsed since we last saw Eileen?" I'm trying to temper my expectations when it comes to her return because I love her so much.

Ah... I meant Sam mourning for her, and then... literally everything else that’s happened over the course of the ensuing two seasons? Everything from Sam’s coming to terms with Mary, with John (in 14.13), with his own life as it stands, with Rowena, with whatever “destiny” had in store for them but now seems more rooted in choice than ever. (that was kinda the plot of 13.19 and the foundation of their relationship since that point). 

But I really also want to caution that one thing Dabb, Bobo, and Buckner said repeatedly yesterday was that these “returning characters” were not going to be the focus of long arcs, you know? I just think it’s a mistake to assume Eileen would be different than any of the other returning characters in that respect. If for nothing else than to avoid horrific disappointment and renewed anger against the show over her.

We don’t know WHEN she will be back, first off. Early on? later in the season? We don’t know HOW she will be back. Will it be in a flashback? As a ghost? Time travel? “was never actually dead but in hiding and what we saw wasn’t actually Eileen getting killed at all?” We don’t know that she’ll be back for more than a single episode, either, or what the context of her being back will be.

I just saw a LOT of people immediately jumping to the conclusion that she will be back, 100% her, and obviously will become regular enough to evolve into Sam’s endgame love interest without stopping to consider that maybe there’s something else planned for her character, you know?

And I... was kind of annoyed by that reaction a bit, tbh. I mean, I love Eileen (heck, before 12.21 every time I’d mention her to Mr. Mittens he would correct me and say, “You mean Mrs. Sam Winchester?” we ADORE Eileen, and legit thought there was endgame relationship potential between them... two and a half years ago), and maybe things would’ve been different between her and Sam if she’d lived, and they had spent the last two years carrying out a growing relationship. But we saw her in TWO episodes before she died. Not to devalue the “we knew they talked regularly over skype all the time” thing, because obviously that was laying some major groundwork between them... but then she died. Sam mourned her, and then he moved on.

I find it gratifying that folks DO feel so strongly about Saileen as a ship, because they literally used Destiel parallels to signal their relationship had romantic potential at that time. But Sam has also been building an interesting relationship with Rowena over the last few years, and having their destinies literally tied together has given an interesting twist to their dynamic. Rowena’s been on something like 37 episodes over the last five seasons, and in that time they’ve gone from enemies, to antagonistic allies, to reluctant allies, to tentative acquaintances, to going through a series of events from Rowena risking her life to save Dean-- and then Sam-- in 12.11, to someone they feel compelled to protect in s13, and someone Sam trusts enough in 13.12 to give her the page from the grimoire she’d been after... 13.19 changes the game again. And now she’s as close to being an honorary Winchester (by CHOICE!) after the events of 14.07 (she still could’ve refused to stay and help find a cure for Jack, but in staying she made a huge personal choice), of 14.14 (wherein she could’ve fled Michael’s offer (maybe...), but her choice to say yes to him was literally framed around protecting the people she’d come to care so much about, but Rowena specifically made it about Sam... so...)

So Sam and Eileen may have hit some highlights of destiel romantic parallels over the two episodes we have of them together, Rowena has been working the long game in that regard... I actually felt offended on Rowena’s behalf that all of this relationship and character growth would be tossed out so Sam could go be happy with someone he had seen twice, more than two years ago... (yes I know he saw her more off camera, but this was OUR basis for their entire relationship). I mean, at that point, why not just resurrect Jessica and let him have his original girlfriend. Or resurrect Sara Blake and let him have her. Or send him back to s8 Amelia.

I guess maybe part of my reaction was based on comments I’ve heard speculating on Dean’s endgame love interest potential... and how irritating it is that people think he’d be happy to just go back to Lisa now if everything was just normal again (I can’t even express how sickened I am by this, going back to the woman who had all memories of Dean wiped from her mind to protect her, so there’s not even any baseline history between them to work from, you know? How the fuck skeevy is that?). And Dean doesn’t really have a comparable “is also a hunter, someone in the life” relationship with someone with that small a footprint on the show, either. I mean, he already has far more history with Jody and Donna, and they’ve never had any romantic coding anyway... I’m just rambling now, but as much as I love Eileen, and absolutely saw potential for an endgame between her and Sam two years ago, I find it a little disturbing how quickly people were willing to just assume she’ll be back permanently now and obviously will be there to become Sam’s romantic endgame partner, as if nothing had ever happened and as if Sam hasn’t had two years worth of developing relationship with Rowena since then...

Not that I think we’re guaranteed for Sam to have some endgame love interest at all, but Rowena is about the closest thing to what I would’ve ever thought could be his endgame partner in that regard... far more than Eileen, even.

But hey, if I’m wrong and Eileen shows up in episode 2 or 3 or something, and isn’t a ghost/memory/hallucination/djinn dream/shapeshifter/literally someone they visit in the past or who is brought to the future or is from an alternate universe or whatever, and if she sticks around for more than one episode before disappearing again, and if they really begin to lay groundwork for her to remain in their lives, then we can disregard all of what I’ve said here. But until I see that actually happen, I’m going to assume that Eileen (literally mentioned by Dabb in the same breath as Adam AND Rowena as someone who will be back... and one of these things is not like the others, in that Rowena is currently ALIVE in canon) is just another returning character “from the past,” who were described repeatedly as basically one-off appearances for s15...