#some of the discourse about her...
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It's probably best we don't talk about it anymore. But if you could just keep a lid on what I mentioned earlier, that would be really great.
#the pitt#thepittedit#the pitt spoilers#oh i love this drama#can we talk about santos having the first shift from hell?#some of the discourse about her...#girl did not want to spend her first day trying to figure out if her senior resident is stealing drugs#there's absolutely NOTHING in the actual show that suggests she's enjoying any of this#she's brash and overconfident but she clearly wants to be liked#and she's very aware no one is gonna like her for this#it is not her fault no one else in this hospital noticed#and the fact it took her at most four hours to have strong suspicions#speaks volume about how bad it actually got#falling in love/having a crush in the middle of all this#is also not great#and i am very much here for this#(also that 'you're trouble' is clearly a 'you're trouble FOR ME' and yes#yes she is#in more ways than one)
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listen there really was just something about how in the book, snowâs 3-page descent from hesitant lover boy to deluded mfer happens entirely in his mind. lucy gray gives him no indication whatsoever that she suspects him, that sheâs going to leave or betray him. heâs just sitting quietly in the cabin waiting for her to return when that seed of calculated suspicion, which he has needed to survive the capitol, takes a hold of him and chokes the life out of any goodness left inside him. it really drives home your terror as a reader that âoh my god did he kill her? did she escape? what happened to her? why would he even think that?â in a way that when the movie had to adjust for visualization it lost some of that holy shit this guy has lost it emphasis.
#seeing some discourse and im not saying lucy grey didnt know#im saying she never dropped the kind of hints that she knew like she did in the movie#or if she did snow isnt worried about them until he very suddenly is consumed by them#snow is not concerned about whether or not she believed him. of course she did! hes snow!#but then shes goneâŠ. for a whileâŠâŠ#and its the sudden immediate drastic unravelling that comes across so clearly in the book#that i knew wouldnât translate to screen yet still cant help but miss#the hunger games#coriolanus snow#tbosas#lucy gray baird#not a crime or anything just a note that i cannot stop thinking about#the ballad of songbirds and snakes#this is all from memory of reading it quite a while ago. so maybe 3 pages is an exaggeration#but i remember it happening VERY quickly and without much external cause#like we as the reader have no indication as to whether shes nearby or not.#snow has no idea either. he just SUSPECTS. and his suspicion breeds the hatred that has been bubbling inside him all this time#he hates how she undoes him. he hates that he WOULD run away with her if shed let him keep his secrets#and he HATES more than anything that she makes him WANT to tell his secrets#he wants to be vulnerable and reveal the ugly nasty parts about himself and still be loved#but he does not let himself and it is everyoneâs downfall#he chooses cruelty bc it is easy and familiar and makes him feel more powerful than the vulnerable give and take that real love requires
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So I could be totally wrong but, I believe it was sort of expected that men/gentlemen lose their virginity before marriage in regency times. But I also thereâs some fandom âdebateâ about whether or not Mr Darcy wouldâve had sex before getting married. So I was just curious about what your canon for Mr Darcy in T3W is. Is he a virgin or not?
I knew someone would ask me this eventually, haha. I've actually had really long conversations with my beta reader about this trying to figure it out. It sounds like this might all be stuff that youâve already seen discussed in the fandom, but Iâve never thought about it deeply before and so these are new thoughts to me.
I keep going over the historical real-world likelihood, the authorial intent, and the text itself but Iâm still not 100%. Iâll explain my thinking and what I find most likely, but hereâs your warning that itâs not a clear cut yes/no.
Because on one hand, at that time period it was most common for men in his position to have seen sex workers or have casual encounters/mistresses with women from their estates. Though I do absolutely believe not all men did that, no matter how much wealth and power they had. To go back some centuries, William the Conqueror seemed to be famously celibate (no hints of male lovers either according to the biography I read) until his marriage, and there's no evidence of affairs after it either. The best guesses as to why are that it was due to his religious devotion and the problems that had arisen from himself being a bastard and not wanting to recreate that situation. Concerns over religion and illegitimate children would certainly still have been applicable in the regency to men who thought that way. And in modern times I've seen sex workers say that when an 18/21yo is booked in by his family/friends to 'become a man' often they end up just talking and agree to lie about the encounter. After all, itâs not like every man wants casual sex, even if they arenât demisexual or something in that vein. But, statistically speaking, the precedent of regency gentlemen would make Darcy not a virgin.
On the other hand, just how aware was Jane Austen, the very religious daughter of a country rector, of the commonness of this? Thereâs a huge difference between knowing affairs and sex workers existed (and no one who had seen a Georgian newspaper could be blind to this) and realising that the majority of wealthy men saw sex workers at some point even if they condemned the more public and profligate affairs. The literature for young ladies at the time paints extramarital sex - including the lust of men outside of marriage - as pretty universally bad and dangerous. This message is seen from 'Pamela' and other gothic fiction to non-fiction conduct books which Jane Austen would have encountered. Here's something I found in 'Letters to a Young Lady' by the reverend John Bennett which I found particularly interesting as it's in direct conversation with other opinions of the era:
"A reformed rake makes the best husband." Does he? It would be very extraordinary, if he should. Besides, are you very certain, that you have power to reform him? It is a matter, that requires some deliberation. This reformation, if it is to be accomplished, must take place before marriage. Then if ever, is the period of your power. But how will you be assured that he is reformed? If he appears so, is he not insidiously concealing his vices, to gain your affections? And when he knows, they are secured, may he not, gradually, throw off the mask, and be dissipated, as before? Profligacy of this kind is seldom eradicated. It resembles some cutaneous disorders, which appear to be healed, and yet are, continually, making themselves visible by fresh eruptions. A man, who has carried on a criminal intercourse with immoral women is not to be trusted, His opinion of all females is an insult to their delicacy. His attachment is to sex alone, under particular modifications.
The definition of a rake is more than a man who has seen a sex worker once, it's about appearance and general conduct too, but again, would that distinction be made to young ladies? Because they seem to simply be continuously taught 'lust when unmarried is bad and beware men who you know engage in extramarital sex.' As a side note, Jane Austen certainly knew at least something about the mechanics of sex: her letters and literature she read alludes to it, and she grew up around farm animals in the countryside which is an education in itself.
We can also see from this exert that the school of thought seems to be 'reformed rake' vs 'never a rake' in contention for the title of best husband, there's no debate over whether a current rake is unsuitable for a young lady. And, from Willoughby to Wickham to Crawford, I think we have a very clear idea of Jane Austen's ideas of how likely it is notably promiscuous men can reform. This does not preclude the possibility that her disparaging commentary around their lust is based more on over-indulgence or the class of women they seduce, but it's undoubtedly a condemnation of such men directly in line with the first part of what John Bennett says so it's no stretch to believe she saw merit in the follow-on conclusions of the second part as well. Whether she would view it with enough merit to consider celibacy the only respectable option for unmarried men is a bit unclearer.
I did consider that perhaps Jane Austen consciously treated this as a grey area where she couldnât possibly know what young men did (the same reasoning is why we never see the men in the dining room after the ladies retire, etc) and so didn't hold an opinion on men's extramarital encounters with sex workers/lower-class women at all, but I think there actually are enough hints in her works that this isnât the case. Though, unsurprisingly, given the delicacy of the subject, thereâs no direct mention of sex workers or gentlemen having casual lovers from among the lower-classes in her texts.
That also prevents us from definitively knowing whether she thought extramarital sex was so common, and as unremarkable, as most gentlemen treated it. But we do see from her commentary around the consequences of Maria Bertram and Henry Crawford's elopement that she had criticism of the double standards men and women were held to when violating sexual virtue. Another indication that she perhaps expected good men to be capable of waiting until marriage in the way that she very clearly believed women should. At the very least, a man who often indulges in extramarital sex does not seem to be one who would be considered highly by Jane Austen.
She makes a point of saying, in regards to not liking his wife, that Mr Bennet âwas not of a disposition to seek comfort for the disappointment which his own imprudence had brought on, in any of those pleasures which too often console the unfortunate for their folly or their vice.â This must include affairs, though cheating on a wife cannot be a 1:1 equivalent of single young men sleeping around before marriage. However, the latter is generally critically accepted to be one of the flaws that Darcy lays at Wickhamâs door along with gambling when talking about their youth and his âvicious propensities" and "want of principle." Though this could be argued that itâs more the extent or publicity of it (but remembering that it couldn't be anything uncommon enough that it couldn't be hidden from Darcy Sr. or explained away) rather than the act itself, or maybe seductions instead of paying women offering those services. I also believe Persuasion mentioning Sunday travelling as proof of thoughtless/immoral activity supports the idea that Jane Austen might have been religious enough that she would never create a hero who had extramarital sex.
So, taken all together this would make Darcy potentially a virgin, or, since I couldn't find absolute evidence of her opinions, leave enough room that he isnât but extramarital sex isnât a regular (or perhaps recent) thing and he would never have had anything so established as a mistress.
Iâve also been wondering, if Darcy isnât a virgin, who would he have slept with? Iâve been musing on arguments for and against each option for weeks at this point. No romantasy has ever made me think about a fictional man's sexual habits so much as the question of Darcy's sexual history. What is my life.
Sex workers are an obvious answer, and the visits wouldnât have raised any eyebrows. Discretion was part of their job, it was a clean transaction with no further responsibilities towards them, and effective (and reusable, ew) condoms existed at this time so there was little risk of children and no ability to exactly determine the paternity even if there was an accident. It was a fairly âresponsibleâ choice if one wanted no strings attached. In opposition to this, syphilis was rampant at the time, and had been known to spread sexually for centuries. Sex workers were at greater risk of it than anyone else and so the more sensible and risk-averse someone is (and I think Mr Darcy would be careful) the less likely they would be to visit sex workers. Contracting something that was known as potentially deadly and capable of making a future wife infertile if it spread to her could make any intelligent and cautious man think twice.
Servants and tenants of the estate are another simple and common answer. Less risk of stds, it can be based on actual attraction more than money (though money might still change hands), and is a bit more intimate. But Wickhamâs called wicked for something very similar, when he dallies (whether he only got to serious flirting, kissing, or sleeping with them I donât think we can conclusively say) with the common women of Meryton: âhis intrigues, all honoured with the title of seduction, had been extended into every tradesman's family.â And it isn't as though Wickham had any personal duty towards those people beyond the claims of basic dignity. Darcy, who is shown to have such respect and understanding for his responsibilities towards the people of his estate and duties of a landlord, would keenly feel if any of his actions were leading his servants/tenants astray and down immoral paths. Servants, especially, were considered directly under the protection of the family whose house they worked in. I think it's undoubtable that Mrs Reynolds (whose was responsible for the wellbeing - both physically and spiritually - of the female servants) would not think so well of Mr Darcy if he had experimented with maids in his youth. It would reflect badly on her if a family entrusted their daughter to her care and she 'lost her virtue' under her watch. Daughters/widows of others living on the estate not under the roof of Pemberley House are a little more likely, but still, if he did have an affair with any of them I can only think it possible when he was much younger and did not feel his duties quite so strongly. Of course lots of real men didn't care about any of this, but Darcy is so far from being depicted as careless about his duties that the narrative makes a point of how exceptional his quality of care was. Frankly, it's undeniable that none of Jane Austen's heroes were flippant about their responsibilities towards those under their protection. I cannot serious entertain an interpretation that makes Darcy not, at his current age, at least, cognizant of the contemporary problems inherent in sleeping with servants or others on his estate.
A servant in a friendâs house would remove some of that personal responsibility, but transfer it to instead be leading his friendâs servants astray and in a manner which he is less able to know about if a child did result. That latter remains a problem even if we move the setting to his college, so not particularly likely for his character as we know it⊠though it wouldnât be unusual for someone to be more unthinking and reckless in their teenage years than they are at twenty-eight so I donât think having sex then can be ruled out. Kissing I can much more easily believe, especially when at Oxford or Cambridge, but every scenario of sleeping with a lower-class woman has some compelling arguments against it especially the closer we get to the time of the novel.
Men did of course also have affairs with women of ranks similar to their own, though given Jane Austenâs well-known feelings towards men who âruinedâ the virtue of young ladies we can safely say that Darcy never slept with an unwed middle- or upper-class woman. Any decent man would have married them out of duty if it got so far; but if he was the sort to let it get so far, I think it impossible Jane Austen would consider him respectable. Widows are a possibility, but again, the respectable thing to do would be to marry them. Perhaps a poorer merchantâs widow would be low enough that marriage is off the table but high enough that the âleading astrayâ aspect loses its master-servant responsibilities (though the male-female âprotect the gentler sexâ aspect remains) but his social circle didnât facilitate meeting many ladies like that. Plus, an affair with a woman in society would remove many layers of privacy and anonymity that sex-workers and lower-class lovers provided by simply being unremarkable to the world at large. It carries a far greater risk of scandal and a heavier sense of immorality in the terms of respecting a womanâs purity which classism prevented from applying so heavily to lower-class women.
I think itâs important to note here that something that removes the need to think about duties of landlords towards the lower-classes or gentlemen towards gentlewomen is having affairs with other men of a similar rank. But, aside from the risk of scandal and what could be called the irresponsibility of engaging in illegal acts, itâs almost certain that Jane Austen would never have supported this. For a devout author in this era the way Iâm calculating likelihoods makes it not even a possibility. But if you want to write a different fanfiction (and perhaps something like a break-up could explain why Darcy doesnât seem to have any closer friend than someone whom he must have only met two or so years ago despite being in society for years before that) it does have that advantage over affairs with women of equal- and lower-classes. I support alternate interpretations entirely â it just isnât how Iâm deciding things in this instance.
I keep coming back to the conclusion that, at the very least, Darcy hasnât had sex recently and it was never a common occurrence. It wouldnât surprise me if Jane Austen felt he hadnât done it ever. Kissing, as we can see from all the parlour games at the time, wasnât viewed as harshly, so I think heâs likely made out with someone before. But in almost every situation it does seem that the responsible and religious thing to do (which Jane Austen values so highly) is for it to never have progressed to sex. I also donât think it conflicts with his canon characterisation to say that he wouldnât regard sexual experience as a crucial element of his life thus far, and his personality isnât driven to pursue pleasure for himself, so itâs entirely possible that he would never go out of his way to seek it. So, Iâm inclined to think that the authorial and textual evidence is in favour of Darcy being a virgin even if the real-world contemporary standard is the opposite. (Though both leave enough room for exceptions that Iâm not going to argue with anyone who feels differently; and even if you agree with all my points, you might simply weight authorial intent/textual evidence/contemporary likelihoods differently than I do and come to a different conclusion).
Remember that even if Darcy is a virgin this wouldnât necessarily equate to lack of knowledge, only experience. There were plenty of books and artwork focused on sex, and Darcy, studious man that he is, would no doubt pay attention to what knowledge his friends/male relatives shared. Though some of it (Looking especially at you, 'Fanny Hill, Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure') should NEVER be an example of appropriate practice for taking a woman's virginity. Darcy would almost certainly have been taught directly or learnt through exposure to other men talking to make sex good for a woman â it was a commonly held misconception (since Elizabethan England, I believe) that women had to orgasm to conceive. It would be in his interests as an empathetic husband, and head of a family, to know how to please his wife.
Basically, Iâm convinced Darcy isnât very experienced, if at all, and will be learning with Elizabeth. But he does have a lot of theoretical knowledge which heâs paid careful attention to and is eager to apply.
#sorry for how my writing jumps around from quoting sources to vaguely asserting things from the books I only write proper essays when forced#if anyone has evidence that Austen thought a sexually experienced husband was better/men needed sex/it's a crucial education for men/etc#PLEASE send it my way I'm so curious about this topic now#this is by no means an 'I trawled through every piece of evidence' post just stuff I know from studying the era and Austen and her work#so more info/evidence is always appreciated#I had sort of assumed the answer was 'not a virgin' when I first considered this months ago btw but the more I thought about it#the less I was able to find out when/where/who he would've slept with without running into some authorial/textual complication#so suddenly 'maybe a virgin' becomes increasingly likely#But the same logic would surely apply to ALL Austen's heroes... and Knightley is 38 which feels unrealistic#(though Emma doesn't have as much commentary on sex and was written when Austen was older so maybe she wasn't so idealistic about men then)#but authors do write unrealistic elements and it's entirely possible that *this* was something Austen thought a perfect guy would(n't) do#and if you've read my finances breakdowns you know I follow the text and authorial voice over real-world logic because it IS still fiction#no matter how deftly Austen set it in the real world and made realistic characters#pride and prejudice#jane austen#fitzwilliam darcy#mr darcy#discourse#austen opinions#mine#asks#fic:t3w#I'm going to need a tag for 'beneath the surface' but 'bts' is already a pretty popular abbreviation haha#just 'fic: beneath' maybe?? idk
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alicent + (lack of) bodily autonomy
"This felt like a baptism. Stripping the outer layer, and that f-cking collar [laughs]. Her getting into the lake on her own is embryonic, in a way. Itâs weirdly a coming-of-age moment for Alicentâthe start of the rest of her life, what sheâs about to do, and the woman sheâs possibly about to become." (x)
#alicenthightowerdaily#alicenthightoweredit#houseofdragonedit#hotdedit#alicent hightower#house of the dragon#i hope the vision is clear...#there's a lot of (interesting) discourse about alicent's arc this season and whether it did right by her or not#but i really appreciated this facet of the arc#it was a downwards spiral of like waning control and disillusionment and loss#but imo an upwards spiral of like reclaiming some bodily and mental autonomy (to a certain degree)#and that was painful but also worth rooting for and satisfying to watch#i think i'm still cheering for her abortion fjgkldjglkjdf#i could have waited for ep 8 to include the blue dress but i think the peak of this arc re doing what she wants with her body-#-that the climactic organ point of the arc was indeed the swimming so might as well#my gifsets
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I love how people are only ever interested in defending Arya's right to be weird-looking. It's never defending her intelligence from people who claim she's incapable of thinking for herself, highlighting her importance to the plot and refusing to see her as just a prop, acknowledging how much of her story gets stolen and given to other characters, talking about her trauma or how often it gets erased and overlooked, seeing her as more than just an attack dog/bodyguard, etc. Nope. It's just a "why can't people let Arya be ugly/unconventional looking? :(" post every other week because people are, for whatever reason, obsessed with how Arya is visually perceived. One of the most misinterpreted characters yet the issue is only ever with her being portrayed as "too pretty" or the wrong "type" of pretty. This fandom will entirely rewrite a character's motivations, values, and role in the story to the point that they consider references to canon "hate" but! The true injustice to canon is we acknowledge that she is described as pretty several times. Arya simply existing as her pretty, important, and non-conforming self is too complex and confusing for people to comprehend đ.
#arya stark#asoiaf#fandom nonsense#how can Arya be considered pretty?! she's literally non-conforming?? being pretty belongs to /feminine/ female characters...right? ïżœïżœïżœ#I feel like these people tell on themselves with how much they value beauty because they make it /such/ a big deal#when her self-esteem issues regarding being a lady are infinitely more relevant to her story (and more interesting to discuss)#her being mocked for having the Stark look is a supporting story element that also reinforces her being an outcast considering#her mother + all of her trueborn siblings have a southern look and she was raised with southern standards#not to mention her non-conformity and often messy appearance heavily impacted how her looks were perceived#George writes Arya's non-conformity as parallel to traditional femininity so it makes sense that beauty is one of those aspects he subverts#(also why it makes sense that her future includes accepting her identity as a Lady while redefining the role but that's off topic)#this is why you need to look at the writing instead of judging based on the /type/ of character you think Arya is#and! it's truly not that serious đ I'm sure it will be a plot point eventually but it's not 98% of her story like these people pretend#Arya is such an interesting + well-written character but we constantly get people rewriting her and nonsense discourse around her looks#such rich material and all you can say is that she's an /odd-looking feral gremlin/ and I'm supposed to take your opinion seriously#at this point the obsession with Arya being /weird/ looking has to be some projection of personal self-esteem issues#there's no way /this/ is the hill you're willing to die on with all the terrible takes about Arya from this fandom#wish people who didn't care about her would just stop bringing her up so we could have our discussions about her in peace
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main takeaway from certain fan reactions to the finale is this:
the final scene with ankarna was so meaningful to the bad kids' arcs and how they made peace with being wronged by people they loved, and if all you can focus on is that the rat grinders didn't get much screentime, then you don't love dimension20 and you don't love this world: you want to be playing your own hs themed dnd campaign and you're mad the oc versions of the rat grinders you made up in your head acted ooc. these are not your characters and this is not their story.
#sorry but it made me so mad after seeing that scene and the epilogues of tbks progressing on their journey to healing#that all anyone cared about was the fucking rat grinders not getting a steven universe moment to explain how trying to end the world was ok#brennan went out of his way to point out klck CHOSE rage over her friends + abused her party for her own selfish agenda and ppl are mad#that tbks didnt want to revive her. where was this outcry for penelope everpetal who was arguably more manipulated and is also in HELL#i keep harping on that point but its such an obvious comparison i feel insane that these ppl dont get it#ppl are even trying to argue against lucy's own words ab being upset her friend MURDERED her bc they flattened her to their uwu soft girl#like lucy was never a doormat. she was braver than all of them. why would she be unconditionally forgiving at her party for being evil#sorry ur toxic yuri ship sucked. klck didnt care she died. the real yuri shouldve been yolanda and zara. if u even care#actually im more annoyed we didnt some quick zara resolution but ppl are too hung up on trgs to notice#dimension 20#fantasy high junior year#fhjy#fhjy spoilers#fhjy discourse#i guess
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The ISU needs to re-ban backflips for the Olympic season because not only is it ugly but the locals and four year fans are going to start insufferable discourse over it.
#right now on twitter some video of ilia doing one in gala practice got ratioed by locals being upset-#because of the constant misinfo regarding surya bonaley#and you know itâs already terrible that the lie about backflips being banned because of her is already popular#but to see that combined with the discourse around it now being legalisedâŠ#dead it#kill it with fire#but when I said Adam opened the sixth circle of hell doing it at worlds people called be boring and unfun#well!#figure skating
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I think that Orym actually does doubt Imogen, but this isn't a thing that is unique to Imogen. Orym doubts all of them to an extent, because paranoia is something he struggles with (and this is continuously reinforced by the story).
It's not a 'good' thing that he should never get over, nor is it an immoral character flaw that proves he actually hates Imogen. However it's also not something I think he can get over as long as the threat of having to possibly fight his friends exists.
"I have all the faith in the world in you guys, all of you. And I have also spent time thinking how to neutralize each of you."
#cr discourse#critical role#cr3#orym#text post#people talk about orym being hypervigilant and then deny his behaviour created out of that hypervigilance#but also see people being weird about orym due to this. you can dislike him all you want but some people are doing too much#âhe hates imogen! she has given him no reason to doubt her! she is goodâ guys its literally just paranoia#he doesn't need a reason to doubt her nor any of them. he just does due to their uncertainty about everything#this group is impulsive. shown by their 'we are an improv group' response to the question 'whats your plan to stop the end of the world'#this is all in line with oryms usual level of slightly paranoid behaviour which is exasperated and justified by the story#he followed fearne away from camp when she wanted to do something on her own but then she was jumped and nearly killed#that paranoia was proven correct#again the next night when he slept with a sword on his back after fearnes dad threatened to come back and attack her friends#and he was attacked in his sleep (by laudna but at the time he didnt know that)#then imogen told the whole group that she and laudna considered giving into the darkness together#something that both ladies then expressed they wanted orym to take them out if they went too far#this is just a result of all of this#so i think this is a non-issue. if you like it great. if you dont then whatever#just this time it rubbed people the wrong way because of irl hang ups of people valuing their own personal privacy#the same way any kind of mind stuff 'modify memory' or psychic reading of minds without permission rubs me personally the wrong way
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Made the mistake of looking at the ratings for the episode over on IMDB. Yikes.
I donât even think some of them actually watch the show??? One person said that Tommy had no right to be pallbearer because he has NO CONNECTION to Bobby??? He was there when Bobby started, he saved Bobby and Athena from the cruise ship, Bobby LITERALLY CALLED TOMMY GOOD PEOPLE, and in the beginning of this very episode we got a flashback of Tommy saving Bobbyâs life. But sure. No connection.
Also, the few reviews I could stomach scanning mentioned Bvddie so like, what else can one expect. Sorry the episode about Bobbyâs funeral didnât include your ship.
I have no doubt that theyâll address Eddieâs grief in the next two episodes, especially since he mentioned wishing he had been there. Just because itâs not gone over in detail in one episode doesnât mean it wonât happen. I so far have not seen one person flip out over the lack of Bucktommy in the ep, in fact most are happy we didnât get anything because it would have felt shoehorned in.
This episode focused on the two people who were most directly affected by Bobbyâs death: his widow and the man he essentially died for. We are going to see more of the others in the next two episodes. Itâll happen.
#911#911 spoilers#911 discourse#anti buddie#did I read and reblog bucktommy fic that was related to 8x16? sure!#did I expect anything to actually happen this ep? not really!#am I ok with that? yes!#why? because this episode was about Bobby!#Iâm happy to see Tommy cause thatâs my guy and all but Iâm not gonna throw a fit about my ship not like hugging it out#I do get those who wish we got more with Eddie dealing with it BUT I THINK ITLL HAPPEN SOON!#we also didnât get a ton of hen dealing with her grief in a loud way BECAUSE ITLL HAPPEN SOON#this isnât some 6 episode Netflix show where everything has to be crammed in one episode#we will see all of them mourn and grieve I canât imagine we wonât#this is me ranting because Iâm trying to focus on work and itâs not happening lol#I needed to get it out of my head
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so i wonder if anyone else has thoughts about mame's choices regarding sky vs tongrak's stories and how she tackled the complexity of loving and being loved.
when i first heard about love sea, i saw a lot of people say that fortpeat were just re-cast as sky and prapai but with tongrak being older and richer than mahasamut. personally, i think that's a pretty reductionist view because mame explored the idea of being afraid to love and be loved from very different angles and perspective in these two stories.
i will give that there are some similarities on the surface - peat's character does that whole 'pretends to hate it but secretly loves it' thing; the cat-like 'push and pull' thing and fort's character is still a overly excited, loveable golden retriever of a human being with a strong sense of self; also both sky and tongrak have had experiences which make them both fearful of 'love'.
but i think while sky's main fear is being loved, tongrak's is very much a fear of loving.
like, sky's story is very... raw. it's an exposed nerve, tender and painful and present. sky's fear is so immediately tied to his trauma which he's still in the throes of. the betrayal he faced was from the one who claimed to love him and it's telling that sky's first flashback is not triggered by his feelings FOR prapai but by prapai expressing his 'love' for him. this trauma is intimate and physical and close, but that means that the start of his healing journey can begin because of an external force (prapai) giving him that safety but also physically removing the threat. when sky begins to feel safe again, he is able to begin healing.
in contrast: tongrak's trauma is relatively... hmmm, separated (? not the best word but...) on a physical level. it doesn't make it less or even less painful (or more, or more painful), but his fear of love largely stems from how he sees the people immediately around him being hurt by love. he's internalised the idea that love doesn't last. mahasamut starts confessing his feelings pretty early on; like episode 4 mahasamut straight up goes, 'well you can't stop me from loving you' and tongrak's disapproving but he's not triggered. what's the difference between this and episode 10, i think, is that tongrak's actively fighting his own awareness of his feelings for mahasamut. it's why his fight or flight response is triggered by vie calling him out about his feelings in episode 8 and also why he tries to force parameters back into their relationship (my take: i don't care if you love me but i won't love you) in episode 10. but it's also why his healing doesn't actually come from an external force - yes, vie kind of knocks him out of his depressed stupor by hiding the bracelet, but note that tongrak's has that breakdown realisation ('please come back, i'm sorry, i'm sorry, can't you please come back to me? i'm afraid you'll end up hating me (emphasis added) if you love me') before he has that chat with vie. he's already realised that the root of his fear of mahasamut's love isn't the love itself, but the fear that if he admits his own love for mahasamut, it will eventually get betrayed. it's also why even after he resolves that he wants to try at a relationship with mahasamut, he still can't say it. at this point, his father's a non-entity in terms of the fear of him going after his loved ones - he's already been proven a weakling and a coward and also they're physically on the island so removed from jak that it shouldn't be an immediate fear anymore. no; this struggle is completely internal and it's why we linger on his heartbreaking attempts to confess (also, love sea had some pacing issues but i'm so so grateful they took time to show this part; bless fort for insisting on it!). tongrak's afraid to love but he pushes and pushes himself, and finally breaks through and its entirely on his own terms because of his own strength.
i'm not saying sky's weaker for (in a sense) needing someone else to rescue him before he could heal, but i think it just speaks to mame really telling quite a different story of healing with tongrak.
like... have you ever thought you'd healed from something and then it comes back in an unexpected way but then your response to the trigger is also different? the pain is there but it's... at once deeper but also more distant? a deep pulse rather than a high pitched shriek? and the way you go about beginning this new phase of healing is also different? i think that's whats happening here.
it's fascinating how us humans can fear vulnerability in so many ways, so many forms, on so many levels but i think the lesson mame's stories tell is that sometimes it really is worth it to become vulnerable. not with everyone, and not all the time (goodness, that would be foolish). but also, keep holding onto hope. keep looking for that right person, keep being kind to yourself and others. know that it's ok if your healing feels different, if you didn't catch it some point in the past, its not too late.
you'll be ok.
#my head is so full and i needed to get some of it out#this isn't super coherent and i'm very interested to see if anyone has thoughts on this or just disagree with this take#i'd love love love to discuss it pls reach out if you do *u*#prapaisky#mutrak#love in the air#love sea#also genuinely interested in having a discourse about mame that isn't just bashing/dismissing her/her work#i agree that her work isn't perfect and everyone has a right to preferring different things#and i'm very very new to bl (i've seen 2 shows - lita and love sea - and like 4 episodes of kinnporche)#so maybe i'm just...ignorant? but i don't get why people hate her work so much#it made me so sad to google lita and then overwhelmingly get the sense that there's something /wrong/ with me for liking it as much as i di#tongrak#sky#love sea the series meta#love in the air meta#rambles about shows i'm watching#<my posts>
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thinking about this post but also it's more than that. do you ever think about how stories starring men are allowed to be about humanity but stories starring women have to be about Womanhood
#it's just the same discourse from like the 2010s about how girls will read about boys but boys won't read about girls#and we haven't gotten anywhere#even when it's like in a feminist way!!! there's room for stories about Womanhood obviously#but believe it or not ''women'' is not the only significant trait or experience that that half of the population has#and frankly I think it's counterproductive to focus every woman-centric narrative on the Woman aspect in some kind of feminism way#especially I feel like in adaptations that get a more hashtag feminism focus! like that story was about a person that was a woman#and you made it into a story about Women. which. ok#but was it not enough for her to just be a human being#experiencing human experiences that perhaps men could relate to#but a story with a male main character is allowed to exist on its own terms#no one's like. okay the main theme of this is obviously something to do with masculinity#(unless that's actually true)#a man is still the default character to explore your ideas and adding the ''girl'' trait is seen as like this extra distortion#that you would add only if you wanted to explore Womenness#like everyone's putting a guy in situations but hey maybe your guy could be a woman#even if the specific situation doesn't call for it#did you ever think of that?#and a lot of it I think is because men are conditioned not to relate to female characters#so making a male character would work to expand your audience because female readers are still willing to invest in him but not vice versa#but that doesn't mean we should just keep perpetuating the cycle#and only making stories about women specifically for women about Womanhood#that's just cementing the problem even further#obviously this is all a generalization and there are exceptions#this also applies to things like race#like in the US if you're making a story with a nonwhite main character suddenly it has to be like About Race or something
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I have no idea if this is just like an artifact of What I'm Seeing Lately. So it could be purely bias in what's crossing my view not a real thing. But I've seen such a sharp rise in the last like 2ish years of Girl Power popular media being like "only losers ask you to split the bill! Yuck!" I feel like when I was growing up it was pretty common for Girl Power popular media to be totally okay with splitting the bill as a sign of, like, Equality In Relationships. Is this...an actual change? Is it just a change in what I'm seeing rather than what's out there? Idk. Weirds me out though.
#book's life#it's only been like. the last five years maybe max#and in that time the amount of stuff I've seen#in these sorts of Girl Power discourses#has changed. so much#i know I'm not a straight woman so on some level this is none of my business#but....it worries me#because it always seems so gender essentialist#and it's positioned as like. a feminist action#which really fucks me up and makes me feel like I'm misremembering#but i know i have a weird relationship to this stuff bc i really disliked being A Girlfriend#basically everything about it was gross and weird to me#which is not true of everyone. many people enjoy it!#like - i passionately hate having my chair pulled out for me. i never wanted to change my last name. etc#so i clearly just don't vibe with the framworks being presented here#and i don't want to let that bias make me judgemental#and i know some of it is interpersonally harmlesz#if a woman wants a man to pull her chair out bc it makes her feel good that's None of my business#if a woman wants a man to pay the bill on a first date that's also none of my business#it's just the idea that it's *universal* and that anyone should know that the norm is for men to always pay. that's what's risen for me#and i don't like it
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I have to say that for me none of this has been about expecting taylor to listen to fans about her personal life. no part of me expects her to go "oh look the fans aren't happy about my boyfriend I better break up with him". it all stems from the fact with it happening in the first place. I'm not disappointed that she's doing something I personally don't want (my opinion on her life is unimportant!) I'm disappointed that someone I'm a fan of is acting in a way that totally opposes the values she's previously preached. it's just the sinking feeling that she's showing her true colours and they don't entirely align with what I thought.
#i'm not expecting my best friend taylor to read my posts and dump her boyfriend#and i think reducing it to 'fans are too invested in her personal life/why do you expect her to listen to fans about'#is just missing the mark#i mean maybe that's where some people's disappointment stems from#but for me and i imagine many others it's more just the acceptance that she's not necessarily the person she's presented to the world#or at least those things she spoke about aren't as important as it seemed#talking#ts discourse
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"Is Amphibia gay like The Owl House?" It is gay, but certainly not like The Owl House.
#you will rip the sashanne subtext from my cold dead hands#i just need you to imagine sasha as a boy for a moment. i know this fandom is good at that so it should be easy#a person attracted to women constantly fighting for the main girl's love. picking her up in a heart-themed carriage#trying to kill the people that come between them#having multiple breakdowns over her rejection of them#eventually deciding to become better in order to ''deserve her'' (they say this explicitly)#they were trying to impress her and convince her to stay by their side since the beginning#now they became a better person and they do things like holding her by her waist and dance with her#to fight a canon lesbian couple (''they're not the only ones who are in sync!'')#and get some killer lines by the girl they've been trying to get since day one such as ''look at what you and I have now''#while staring into her huge heart eyes#this goes beyond shipping y'all. sashanne isn't even my personal favorite. it's not my fault it's canon#/hj#why do i ask you to imagine sasha as a boy you ask. well. what WOULD you assume of him of she were a boy#what would most people assume of that behavior#the moment sasha was revealed as canonically queer it recontextualized everything#i wholeheartedly believe the subtext is meant to be ambiguous on purpose (and i wouldn't have it any other way)#there's also ''sasha. sasha waybright. my hero. my villain. my savior. my downfall'' but we don't talk about that#marcy is also out there calling them both ''my love'' in her private journal but that's a whole other can of worms#that lowkey leads me to believe she might be aromantic and insanely platonically in love with her friends#(it makes sense in my head)#imagine the show's popularity (and discourse) if sashanne were explicitly canon tho đ just imagine it#my posts#amphibia
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the more i think about arcane s2, the more similarities i find between it and spop. right now iâm thinking about the prison scene with caitlyn and jinx, and how it reminded me of glimmer and catra in primeâs ship.
thinking about how caitlyn wasn't forced to forgive jinx. she gave jinx the benefit of doubt, but that was only for vi's sake. she said she was tired of hating jinx, but that was only because it was detrimental to her own health.
she never forgave jinx for killing her mother, and she never forgot about all the crimes that jinx committed.


(someone send this to the writers and fans of spop please)
contrast that with glimmer in s5. she just straight up forgets about her mother. even before catra rescues her, glimmer never brings up her mother once. she is angry at catra just for the sake of it, and then as soon as catra threatens to leave her alone in the cell, glimmer immediately gives in. and they spend that time together laughing about adora's trauma.
and once catra rescues glimmer and is consequently rescued by adora, glimmer is an entirely different person from who she was in s4. catra is suddenly her bestie and her mother doesn't matter anymore.
caitlyn's scenes with jinx was very limited but the writers used them to their full potential. jinx doesn't apologize but she clearly feels bad about what happened to caitlyn's mother. she believes that she is beyond redemption, much like catra, and caitlyn doesn't push it further. her feelings were taken into consideration and she was allowed to grieve her mother.
the writers of spop had all the opportunity to make things right between catra and glimmer. have catra apologize for what happened to angella, and have her earn glimmer's forgiveness. but no, any time they had together was used for c//a shipping fodder or to throw catra yet another pity party.
#jinx's redemption wasn't perfect but it was a lot more bearable because people didn't magically forget about her crimes and forgive her#even vi was wary of her to some extent#spop critical#spop salt#spop#spop discourse#spop criticism#she ra#anti spop#arcane#arcane season 2#arcane spoilers
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sometimes i think some people in this fandom believe they own the characters they like, and this turns fandom experience into such a toxic and unhealthy one. caring and worrying about a character is very different than disliking anything it's done to them because it doesn't please you and your idea of their personality and who they should associate with.
this begs the question as well, how much is this about Agatha and how much this is actually about just petty hatred/dislike towards Wanda and canon discourse towards Rio? because, in the dawn of Agatha All Along's release, she's been the least one talked of in comparison to her witch mates in some corners of this fandom.
[author's note: it's just so funny to see some clearly biased complaints about recent events in the mcu and the comics, such as Agatha's deaging in the recent runs of the comics. it's obvious that she's been deaged, and it's very ill-intentioned to bissfully ignore the exact time period that her character was first de-aged and redesigned: after Wandavision and Kathryn's Agatha. i thought this was obvious, but since it evidently isn't, Kathryn's Agatha isn't Hagatha. it makes much more sense to match a character that has always been secondary and related to others, without well-defined appearance, and with the ability to age herself down, to its more popular mcu counterpart. also, why complain about a character that hasn't even been released yet, that we don't know a single official thing about, not being inserted in the comics? when said character is rumoured to be a genderbent version of an already existing character i.e Emerald Warlock? so now everything is bad because a single character that never even existed until a few months ago isn't inserted in everything that pertains Agatha's storyline and Agatha's only? are you even listening to yourselves? how come Agatha allegedly being ever-tied to Wanda is such an awful issue, but suddenly her being tied to Rio isn't? are the double standards in the room with us right now? these are just a few issues and complaints i have, and i feel it's high time they were voiced]
[apologize if there are any spell/grammar mistakes, this was written in the middle of a research lab meeting]
#i swear it's so annoying to deal with this fake-concern towards Agatha and her 'storyline'#when what some in this fandom are doing is to just complain and tie this woman's every move to a character that didn't even exist until now#this whole 'wagatha shippers tie Agatha to Wanda' discourse became such an ironical self-projection of what's been happening with Agatha#but in relation to Rio and Rio only since apparently Agatha can't exist and have a life without her#it's so unnerving to see these biased complaints about Rio not being in this or that or that's canon and that's not#i feel like it's beyond time some of you sit back and really read what you've been posting and think about it#this obsession in making Agatha depend on Rio and be tied to her is just as bad as tying her to Wanda#and: canonically they're not even a couple#they're divorced and it's very clear from the recent leaks that Rio will be Agatha's antagonist as well as Wanda's#it's saddening really to see how taken with discourse this fandom has become#and again it's ridiculous that some of you are trying very hard to make it seem you're making it all about Agatha#when in reality you're all making this whole ordea to be about Rio and Rio only#because obviously a comic is only good if it has the characters that i want portrayed in the way i want for my own enjoyment!#some of you are really miserable at this point and are trying to make everyone miserable as well because of your own dissatisfactions#agatha harkness#wanda maximoff#agatha all along
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