#they will just make him ned stark 2.0

[0ynes]

people saying sara snow will give Jace character depth...

You know what gives depth to Jace's character? Having Cregan see what a good prince and worthy heir he his. A capable young man who takes his role seriously. Cregan saw something so special in Jace that he kept his oath even after Rhaenyra and Jace dyed. And that's what Jace's character deserves. That's what little Jace who asked "Am I a bastard?" deserves. It doesn't matter that Jace doesn't have silver hair & purple eyes. Since Rhaenyra told him "You're a Targaryen. That's all that matters.", Jace took his role seriously, he took his High Valyrian lessons seriously, his training seriously, he studied the political game. He knows what to do and say to get allies. A boy who desperatly wants to prove himself wouldn't fuuck up so bad by breaking his betrothal, bed and marry the first girl he saw. And to make amends they do a pact. Why would Cregan be loyal to a guy like this even after his death? In Cregan's eyes, Jace already broke an oath and disrespected him in his house, why would he pledge himself to Rhaenyra? That version of the story is a disservice to Jace character, told by someone who never been to Winterfell.

[andthemoonsingswisely]

my pet peeve is when the asoiaf fandom does mental gymnastics to justify parallels between Lyanna Stark and any of the stark children besides Jon and Arya. Parallels aren't just the color of someone's clothes, or a hobby...they have thematic purposes and are meant to reveal things about the involved characters, conflicts, and motivations. Arya being Lyanna 2.0 in terms of appearance and personality is a parallel because it shows what Lyanna would have been like had she been alive outside of the few sentences said about her. Jon defending Samwell Tarly and Lyanna defending Howland Reed is a parallel because it establishes both of them as people who defend those who don't conform to society's standards, and lays the groundwork for R + L = J. Arya being the ghost in harrenhal and Lyanna being the KotLT in Harrenhal further add to the theme of history repeating and cement these two characters' shared motivation of justice, and their similar speech patterns and appearances which lead Bran to confuse Lyanna for Arya in the vision as well as their "wolf-blood" are parallels because these things are key in Arya reclaiming her identity as a Stark. Throwaway lines like Sansa "pleading" like Lyanna and being "dead before her time" aren't really parallels in the sense that they don't reveal any unique aspect to Sansa's character or how her motivations and conflicts are similar to Lyanna's; one could argue that Jon actually dying is as much of a parallel to Lyanna being "dead before her time" or that Arya, too, having her identity stolen and pretending to be "no one" is also her being "dead before her time" if that was all that was necessary to be a parallel. I'm not going to go through every Sansa-Lyanna "parallel" and explain why they're wrong, as there have been other posts doing the same thing. However, another "parallel" I've seen lately is between Robb and Lyanna: people claim that Robb and Lyanna both haunting the narrative is a parallel to which I have to say...if a character who was important to the plot died OF COURSE they'd haunt the narrative! the situation around them when they died, as well as their social position and personality + motivations are too different to make their deaths an actual parallel. Robb was a firstborn son who was a military leader who died as part of the Freys' revenge to him breaking an oath, Lyanna was a girl who couldn't openly practice sword fighting and who died in a tower after giving birth. Robb went into war after the Lannisters killed Ned, Lyanna didn't go into war, that was started by Robert after she went with Rhaegar. Personality-wise? It's not like they're nothing alike, but there are no significant similarities between them either. It's like taking any two random characters from the novel; if you tried hard enough, I'm sure you could find some similarity between them, but nothing that's enough to create a true parallel.

[swordsandarms]

Sometimes people make too much a fuss of what Robb Stark was and what he could have been, because I feel the point of him is he was always doomed: he was THE Ned 2.0 some sometimes try to write Jon as (which HE isn't) and Ned Stark's fate only heads one way. 

But there's also an opposite obnoxious kind of posting about "capable know-it-all Catelyn and her dumb teenage son" or "lol who let this highschooler put his mother in jail" etc etc. Because that's a whole other bad reading. 

Catelyn was not the remarkable advisor Robb should have always listened to (though she does have her moments, of course), nor was anyone better off if she was THE man. 

Catelyn and Robb are a doomed duo. She wants to be seen by him as a just as respectable King's advisor, but she puts even more pressure on him with motherly scolding about being a bad brother. She wants to be seen as much as one of his advisors by Robb's men, too. But she takes fully advantage of being "just a woman and mother" and hence being treated with double standards about messing around with important Lannister by hostages, although the Karstarks also act out of grief - but THEY receive the capital punishment for treason. 

Robb is a young, inexperienced King AND Catelyn is not a rational, capable pillar of an advisor for a King. Although Robb is also too young, there's really a common factor here for both of them. In this very patriarchal world, the wife/mother and the heir are both subservient to the patriarch of the family for as long as the patriarch lives. No matter how many years Catelyn stood or would have still stayed by her husband's side, even privately giving her advice to him, she has not the real deal experience of (or) competent capacity of calling the shots or leading negotiations. The results of the negotiations with Walder Frey are almost mocking, and she herself walks out a kind of defeat - the position she'd led in life is of having to capitulate after battling without success against male self righteousness and confidence in what they're due. She also never got over her estrangement in the North and doesn't fully understand the people she's meant to be working with, and in that quarter Robb does a better job by default. And had Ned lived into old(er) age, Robb would have continued into this 40s or 50s still never in a position to speak or act over his father. Stepping into the position of the patriarch after a long time of obeying would still be shaky, unknown grounds. 

All in all, it can be argued that they were doomed either way, of course, whether they were THE King or THE advisor. Walder doesn't exactly respect women - to be promised a son of his as being handed Riverrun (and the head of the Riverlands) beats having a daughter married to a powerful man only any day. The Boltons have retained their old spite over being subjugated by the Starks  (from being Kings) and even having also failed in in raising in Rebellion against them in the past - the temptation was there. But Catelyn and Robb were, again, also a failed duo working together, with double sided lackings. But by all means, this is not something as straightforward and one-dimensional as the extremely capable and ever wise mother who has real experience to lead (especially the North) better following this completely fool of a child around. 

[esther-dot]

hello! i’ve followed for a while but never talked to you. thank you for being such a great jonsa and asoiaf source. i’ve been thinking lately about how sansa’s vale arc might proceed and was curious if you know of any theories about when/how her marriage to tyrion might end.

sansa needs to be unwed for littlefinger’s schemes to work. he seems to want sansa to believe he’s just waiting around for tyrion to die, but that doesn’t seem in character for him. it seems more likely he is actively trying to end her marriage behind the scenes.

do you think she’s likely to stay married to tyrion for much longer? or might her married/unmarried state end up as convoluted as the northern succession, maybe with a decree of annulment floating around somewhere like robb’s will?

Aw! Thank you so much for saying so! I really enjoyed your tags contributing to the Rhaegar & David parallels, and your post about his name.

I haven't been reading much meta this year, so I may have missed it, but I don't know that we've ever developed a specific theory about when Sansa's marriage to Tyrion would be handled! We've sometimes talked about a nice ol' widowing which is fun (but not what we'll get imo), @kellyvela found an exchange in which Martin said that someone doesn't have to go to the High Septon for an annulment but obviously will have to request it in their own name and it would reveal their location (link), so that means, it can't be safely done while Sansa’s pretending to be LF's daughter. She could do it once in Winterfell, and we've talked about the possibility of Tyrion trying to bring the North to Dany's side in DoD 2.0 via his marriage to Sansa, and if that is the route Martin wants to go, it would be pretty juicey, and really fuel Tyrion's rage if Sansa has already had their marriage annulled. That's a fun way to play it.

We've also talked about post a girl in grey trip to the North, considering loyalty to Ned and hatred for Lannisters, the North might just say fuck it, we don't recognize that forced marriage. Or, and I really do think this is possible for drama's sake, we have the two religions, and they might use that to defend not recognizing the marriage and, considering the byronic Jon quote, and how often bigamy pops up in gothic/victorian lit, I don't dismiss the idea that Sansa might marry someone before the old gods prior to an annulment being secured. That might mean, the annulment doesn't happen until close to the end of the story. I personally like the idea of a secret Jonsa wedding, but lot's of Jonsas expect it to be public after R+L=J to reconcile the Jon KitN turning out to be a Targ debacle. Either way, this would mean when Jon reunites with his friend Tyrion, they're both married to Sansa which is also a very sick twisted fun way to play it! (Stop throwing tomatoes, y'all know that would be funny!)

As for LF's current plans, I have no idea! He believed Cersei would end Tyrion, he'd then get rid of Cersei, and that at that point he could reveal who Sansa was:

"A marriage . . ." Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. "I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . ." Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. "I am married," she whispered. "You know."

Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. "The dwarf wed Ned Stark's daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa's safely widowed. And you must meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that." (AFFC, Alayane II)

No man can wed me so long as my dwarf husband still lives somewhere in this world. Queen Cersei had collected the head of a dozen dwarfs, Petyr claimed, but none were Tyrion's. (TWOW, Alayne I)

The mention of the queen's name made her stiffen. "She's not kind. She scares me. If she should learn where I am—"

"—I might have to remove her from the game sooner than I'd planned. Provided she does not remove herself first." (AFFC, Alayne I)

Cersei had the motivation to go after Tyrion, so it made sense to me he thought she'd handle it, and then he'd handle her, but seeing as what he wants to do is reveal Sansa as herself, get the KotV to go North and reclaim Winterfell, I'm not sure what he is currently planning, now that he says his timetable is screwed? Unless he thinks the mayhem of KL, Cersei's current trouble there, Aegon and then Dany's arrival will allow him to get the annulment undiscovered? Cersei is at odds with the High Septon, so maybe he thinks he could get away with it? That doesn't make sense to me though, not with the way news flies. I guess the weather is something of a shield, but not enough. Maybe he planned to kill someone and try to pass them off as Tyrion? Marry Sansa to Harry quickly after and take her North where Cersei wouldn't be able to get her? The emphasis is on Tyrion being alive, not the annulment, but maybe that's a misdirect. I really can't say. If any of you have spec, let me know and I’ll reblog it!

[jackoshadows]

Don’t know if someone already asked that question so here it goes: what’s your opinion on Ned Stark? I think the fandom is too harsh on him

He's fine. I like him as the character who starts off and sets up the story for our actual protagonists. I like that he's flawed and has his own kind of morality and ideas of right and wrong, as fitting the fictional fantasy world he lives in.

I do think the fandom is too harsh in the sense of how he's reduced to this honorable fool. This interpretation of him (wrong, IMO) is so popular in fandom that it made it's way to the garbage show through D&D/Bryan Cogman adapting popular tumblr metas rather than actually reading the books and translating that to the screen. They wrote actual dialogue for Sansa 'Smart' where she warns Jon to not be stupid like Ned and Robb!!

This is one of the many reasons for why the show and the books are so canonically different. Benioff and Weiss think the likes of Littlefinger should rule the world and hence why they wrote dialogue for Littlefinger 2.0 aka Sansa stark where she disparages Ned Stark as stupid. In the books on the other hand, Ned inspires loyalty and brotherhood, with his bannerman rising up for Arya and Rickon Stark, while all the Lannisters can inspire is fear and hatred.

As GRRM himself explains:

It’s not enough to be a good man to be an effective ruler. It’s complicated and it’s hard and I wanted to show that with repeated examples in my books with my kings and hand of the kings - the prime minister if you would - trying to rule. And whether it be Ned Stark or Tyrion Lannister or Tywin Lannister or Daenerys Targaryen or Cersei Lannister trying to deal with the real challenges that affect anyone trying to rule the 7K or even a city like Meereen and it’s hard. You know, we can all read the books or read history and say oh, so and so was stupid and made a lot of mistakes and look at all these stupid mistakes they make. But these kind of mistakes are always much more apparent in hind sight than when you are actually faced with the decision about, oh my God, what would I do in this situation. How do I resolve this thing? Do I do the moral thing? But what about  the political consequences of the moral thing? Do I do the pragmatic, cynical thing and kind of screw the people who are screwed by it? I mean, it is HARD. And I want to get to all of that - GRRM

Ned had very few allies and people he could trust in KL. It was a viper's nest and as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts Jon Arryn leaves behind an absolute mess with the likes of the Lannisters, Littlefinger and Slynt holding too much power. There was not much maneuvering that Ned could do in the situation he found himself.

I like that he is flawed with his blindspots for Robert Baratheon that clashes with his morality. I like that children are his weakness - that he was ready to resign when Robert wanted to send assassins to murder Dany, that he tried to save Jaime's children while Jaime tried to kill his.

All in all, I think it's harder to be a 'good' man in Westeros than it is to be a bad one. I have read opinions on how the likes of Ned and Jon are boring because they are 'good' while everyone loves the hot bad boys like Jaime Lannister because he's just so 'complex'. I couldn't disagree more. Jaime attempts to murder the likes of Bran and Arya for Cersei and it's a simple enough decision for the likes of him in a Westeros that lets him get away doing this with no consequences. Ned Stark warns Cersei because he does not want to see her children suffer the same fate as Elia's children - and dooms his family and house.

When Westeros exemplifies the idea of 'No good deed goes unpunished', it's harder to do the morally right thing and I am doubly appreciative of characters who still do it. Daenerys trying to help the oppressed of Meereen simply because it's the right thing to do, Arya helping the prisoners in the cage or Weasel or sticking up for Mycah, Jon fighting against the centuries of hatred and xenophobia at the wall in his reform of the Wall.

So yeah, I like Ned Stark. He's an interesting, complex character and I can't wait to know more about him with Howland Reed's revelations of Robert's Rebellion and the Tower of Joy and what actually happened and how Jon Snow deals with the truth and reexamines his relationship with his 'father' and Arya holding on so strongly to her father's ideals, leadership and this image she has of him and how she is going to use his words, adapt and change that to lead the North.

[alaynestcnes]

how do you think the series is going to end? obviously jonsa ;) but do you think it'll be similar to the show?

I go backwards and forwards tbh. I do feel like where most of the characters ended up in the show is probably a good indicator for their book ending (I think D&D got told the broad strokes of GRRMs ending but they just got too turned around w what they wanted/thought would make good TV).

More under the cut bc I rambled on for longer than I thought I would 😵‍💫

I do think Jonsa will be canon in some capacity and to me there’s only really two realistic routes;

1. Tragic star-crossed lovers who are tortured by their forbidden feelings (a la the original outline). Honestly if it goes this way I can see their romance being a subplot that isn’t entirely focussed on tbh. GRRM is a romantic but it’s usually subtle - look at Ned/Cat, Jaimie/Brienne. Even with Robb/Jeyne, it was bare bones. These are definitely love stories, but the love is so truthfully woven into the workings of the narrative that it’s barely a plot point itself. Jon and Sansa will have the same, where it’s there and unspoken and painful and probably motivates some of their decisions, but it’s not some epic Romeo and Juliet thing that consumes them. If they do have this plot where they have feelings, I doubt they’ll end up together (I don’t think we can have both). It’ll probably end like the show with everything unspoken/unresolved with Jon exiled or dead and Sansa on the throne.

2. Ned/Cat 2.0 political marriage. I generally lean more in this direction. Jon and Sansa are both political characters and their plots/desires are leading them to Winterfell. They are both positioned to be leaders of the North - it makes sense that it would be together. I think there will be Northern conspiracies that will lead to a politically fractured North with the various Starks becoming figureheads for the different remaining houses vying for power (Manderly wanting Rickon on the Northern throne, Petyr/the Vale wanting Sansa, and miscellaneous others wanting the newly resurrected Jon). Rickon will probably die (I hate it but I can’t see another way for him 😭), his followers split between Jon and Sansa’s camps. Targ reveal will happen, which will lessen Jon’s claim. But he’s a god-like figure after his resurrection so he’ll still have followers and he’ll know he needs the power of the entire united North to fight the WW. Makes sense that some advisors would suggest a marriage instead of tearing the North apart, especially with Jon wanting to go off to face the WW threat immediately. Sansa will want peace and she’ll see sense in marrying a man she knows (who I’m sure LF (if he’s alive atp) will imply that Jon will accidentally die in the war anyway and leave it all to Sansa). So they get married to unite the North, despite being essentially strangers atp. As above, I don’t think we’ll get much of an actual love story, but they are suited to each other and I think by the end of the series we’ll come very full circle with Ned/Cat ‘love didn’t just happen, we built it’. And ofc with the final book being A Dream of Spring (i.e rebirth, new life, hope) I’m betting on a Stark baby.

Idk about the other characters ngl I don’t spend half as much time theorising on them 🙃

Jon will likely seek out Dany to face the WWs. I think it’ll be pretty similar to the show where she’ll be split between wanting to help and wanting to take KL. Maybe a bit of the politcal!Jon theory here to convince her (we do need that betrayal for love, which I 100% believe is Jon - maybe with him knowing the war/their plan will likely be her doom but he goes through with it to protect the North). Ultimately, I think she’ll die fighting the WWs in like an epic sacrifice. BUT while she dies, at least one of her dragons will survive. Which means that while Dany saved the world, she also doomed them to another terrible fate - having a grown, enraged, untamed dragon loose upon the world with the only woman able to control them gone. So, even though the WW will be defeated, in the remaining/following book there’s still a Big Bad to cause drama. I like the idea of Dany’s end being conflicting - she dies a true hero but also her great act is her worst act and has long lasting consequences for the survivors.

Cersei will probably try to capture Drogon in her greed for power and in doing so causes KL to burn (Drogon’s fire + all that hidden wildfire). This is actually based on nothing but vibes haha but I like her end being caused by her own hand and greed, reaching for more when she could have lived with the power she already had. I’m choosing to ignore the Valonquar bc idc I’m not GRRM.

Bran King of Westeros bc why not.

Arya’s ending has me lost. I think she def meets Lady Stoneheart and it will make her question her own pursuit for revenge. I don’t think Arya’s story is meant to end with her becoming a heartless professional assassin dedicating her life to killing the enemies of her family; she is so much more than that. Seeing LSH will make her witness the horror of being entirely consumed by hate and bloodshed. She’ll kill LSH out of mercy and it will also symbolise her putting to rest her own anger and desire for revenge. Idk where she’ll finally end up tho so she gets a wildcard and can do whatever she wants.

Andddd all of this is subject to change on any given day. I’m just rocking w whatever feels right atp bc god knows we’re never seeing Winds.

[reginarubie]

For the brutally honest ship opinion, what do you think of Viserys/Aemma? Fandom has romanticized them so much (and so has the show), but I just can't get over the fact that Aemma begged him to stop, crying that she doesn't want to die, while Viserys cut her in two for his male heir. She also mentioned that she doesn't want to go through the ordeal of pregnancy again, implying reproductive abuse that Viserys repeated with Allicent. Fandom is determined to make him Ned 2.0, but I don't see it

Ciao nonny,

For my brutally honest opinion about Aemma/Viserys…

… people really romanticise them so much? I mean the scene about her death is on the top three of unwatchable/unreadable scenes of the whole franchise (GoT and HotD). It’s up there with Talisa’s death in GoT and the mention of the way Elia was killed in asoiaf and the grief and vengeance Oberyn and Doran still feel for it.

Or maybe I am just overly sensitive over it because I am a woman and seeing people killing a babe in the womb and the mother or opening a woman to get the child out of her… it was crude and raw and whilst plausible of the time and characters is in my opinion unwatchable and kinds of make unredeemable the men involved.

Aemma begged for her life, and whilst it’s true she might have died anyway and this way the babe would have a chance, for how little… she pleaded, she begged him, told him she wanted to live, and he ignored that to get his son.

He didn’t even comfort her properly. He just ignored her fear, her pain and her terror. The whole exchange they have before the birth also enlightens us to the sheer abuse Aemma suffered and accepted because they taught her it was her duty to give him male heirs (‘the queen was ever mindful of her duty’)

The same abuse, but worsened, that Alicent suffered. Because not only she suffers that very same abuse, but she manages to give him three sons. All healthy and living through infanthood and into adulthood. She does her duty, as a wife and mother and still Viserys overlooks the sons she gave him in favour of Rhaenyra.

She suffers that abuse, she overcomes it, she does her duty and manages to give him what he wanted and still her children are almost nothing to him.

Even on his bed, during his illness he calls Rhaenyra “my only child” as if he doesn’t consider Alicent’s children as his, the sons he so much wanted and that she gave him. He forces himself to hold court to defend Rhaenyra, he would not have done the same for any of Alicent’s children.

He ignores his own son’s cut/off eye because Rhaenyra’s honour was put in discussion for the truth.

And whilst Viserys might have done well by Rhaenyra (defending her beyond defence, and loving her and making up for the years he overlooked her) he does not do the same for his other children.

And whilst in Fire and Blood it’s said that before dying he spent an evening with Helaena and his grandchildren, telling them stories that was cut off from the show and for good reason since he’s barely seen interacting with any of his children by Alicent if not to defend Rhaenyra.

Also, people like to think him of the new Ned because of the way they framed his interactions with Rhaenyra (which reminds them of Ned/Arya)… and it was intentional, and in some ways it was similar (Viserys laughing with her about her quirks and being indulgent with her, his rage but love even though Rhaenyra is being difficult for the standards of the time and context, his unwavering support of her claim despite her dishonourable for the context and time actions).

Though if they are paralleling him and Aemma with Ned “my lady you’re holding your hands strangely, who harmed you?” Stark and Catelyn “Ned loves my hair” Stark I’m gonna throw a right fit.

Anyone who knows me a little bit knows I adore Ned and Cat, despite their fragilities and faults… and to even anyone is imagining Viserys could be paralleled with Ned outside of the Ned/Arya parallel they are severely mistaken.

Even worse if they want to parallel Viserys “I want so badly a son that I'm going to have it at any cost (my wife's life cost), then when I have him I'm gone ignore him” with Ned fucking Stark who raised and loved the son of a man he most probably hated who might have or not abducted his sister, and has for sure secluded her away from her family against which he was fighting because of the love he bore his sister, protecting him even against his own best friend... I don't think they have been paying attention.

Since this can become pretty difficult and also triggering I'm putting the rest under the cut.

I give you the antithesis. Ned Stark with Lyanna Stark and Viserys Targaryen with Aemma Arryn and if any of you wants to argue that that doesn't count because it should be between Ned and Cat and Viserys and Aemma just remember that:

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart.  — Eddard I, AGOT

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. — Catelyn II, AGOT

So, just shut the hell up if you're gonna argue Ned&Lyanna are not good term of paragon, also because we don't know what exactly caused Lyanna to bleed to death, she could've had a difficult birth same as Aemma did, she could have had a premature birth (like it happened with Visenya daughter of Rhaenyra), so many things could've gone wrong, still it is about a woman laying on her deathbed, during the birth of her son and the man who loves her standing beside her as she dies.

Ned and Lyanna So, the scenes begins with Ned running up the stairs of the Tower of Joy to reach a screaming Lyanna. When he barges through the door Lyanna is shown in a bed of blood, her whole middle covered in vivid blood, sweaty and pale, scared, delirious. Yet she recognizes her brother, whom she loves and missed even though delirious, and she's so much out of it that in a first moment she is afraid he might be a dream.

What does Ned does? He abandons his sword at the feet of the bed and runs to his sister's bedside, kneeling at her side and when Lyanna asks him if he's a dream, Ned assures her that no, he's not a dream and he's really there and to drive the point through he grabs her hand.

Then, as he caresses her forehead and holds her hand, she tells him she missed him and Ned, who has fought a bloody war, has lost his father and brother both because of Aerys, tenderly tells her he missed her too.

He does all he can to comfort her.

And when Lyanna tells him she wants to brave, even though he is holding back his tears he tells her she is.

Lyanna is clearly terrorized, not only has she just given birth mostly alone after months of seclusion and possibly abuse; not only with the grief of her father and brother dying because of Aerys madness and her situation with the fear for the man she loved (? maybe) and the other people she loved for sure (her brothers and her mother); she knows she's about to die so we can only imagine how difficult and traumatic the birth might have been for her; she's scared for herself and she's terrorized for her son who faces a terrible death if word ever got out of who he is.

What does Ned does? He tells her she's not going to die (comforts himself as much as he is comforting her) and goes out of his way to try and save her (demands water for her, which is a kindness and a help for women who have just went through childbirth; and demands she's seen by a maester, asking for his presence and apparently Rhaegar left his pregnant lover/wife without Maester? Anyway digressing). Lyanna on the other hand knows what it is that truly scares her, Jon's fate.

So she begs him to listen to her and he does. She begs him to protect her boy, to promise to protect him. She entrusts her son in his arms, and by Ned's words themselves:

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. — Eddard I, AGOT

Another proof of how much Ned loved her is that he remembers perfectly Lyanna's last words, the way she died comforted by the truth her brother would protect her son, and thus her son was safe from any harm, but from that moment on (until presumably he was given Jon) he had held onto Lyanna, and he was so grief-stricken he could not recall what happened until Howland Reed had disentangled him from his sister.

Arguably Ned in the end did everything and more to ensure Lyanna died peacefully. Aemma would've probably died anyway (and both Lyanna and Aemma were put in a situation in which childbirth was even more dangerous than normal by their Targaryen husbands/lovers abusers for some damn prophecy, the same one mind you) yet Viserys failed not only for the sheer abuse he put her through (which I have already said) but for the way he handled the moment of her death. Viserys failed miserably where Ned managed the only possible success that day, ensuring his sister had peace as she died and ensuring her last wish was honored by keeping her child safe.

Again, Aemma might have died anyway, but first of all Viserys put her in that condition, despite being aware that their pregnancy had been always difficult and took a toll on her health, despite know how much it hurt and weighted on her. Still, Viserys didn't even manage to comfort his own wife, I'm pretty sure they could've given her milk of the poppy to ensure that she did not feel as much the pain and also making sure she staid still, something that did not happen. Aemma fought as Viserys and the midwives kept her still and down. She fought to survive, she fought because she didn't want to die and no one comforted her.

And I've cut out the worst of Aemma's death scene, the part in which she struggled and fought, and pleaded and begged to be listened to, to be comforted, to be helped, to be saved. Because as I've said it's pretty hard for me to see, and I think it might be pretty hard for anyone with a bit of sensibility.

Tbh, both men were put in a terrible situation, the difference?

Ned was not the one to put Lyanna in that situation to begin with, and especially from what we know of his character he would not have put his wife in that situation either. The Stark motto ‘Winter is coming’ is as much as a prophecy as ‘the dragon dream’, still Ned did not live his whole life with the only intention to father children that would defend the North. His children defended the North because Ned taught them their duty. Males and females.

Ned managed to comfort his dying sister, Viserys did not comfort his dying wife. Or did not find the right key to comfort her. Aemma died afraid and struggling to save herself. Lyanna died peacefully knowing her family still loved her, that they loved her enough to look beyond the parentage of her son to keep him safe because of the love they had for her. That Ned bore her.

Put into an impossible situation, Ned managed to do the only thing he could do. He made sure his sister died peacefully and feeling loved, knowing her son safe.

Aemma died struggling for her life, her child being torn from her womb at her husband's choice, fearful for the fate of the child she was carrying and grief stricken for all the grief the pregnancies duty and Viserys imposed on her caused.

So yeah, we respect no man who would put his wife/lover/woman through all of that for any reason, even less for a damn prophecy (you'll find no apologist's behavior toward Rhaegar and Viserys here) in this household.

Tbh considering him the new Ned means people have not really paid attention to the whole matter. Viserys is the new Rhaegar and the abuse Aemma and Alicent suffered is the same abuse Elia and Lyanna suffered at Rhaegar's hands.

So, yeah, this turned pretty long...but I really, really hate this paragon and I really don't think people should overlook the abuse Viserys put Aemma and Alicent through only because his love stories (especially the one with Aemma) are shown only by his eyes. It's a POV trap which makes you believe that the love he bore Aemma is enough to overlook the abuse he doesn't see as such. But it is there.

And if people wanna parallel Viserys (aka Rhaegar 2.0) to Ned… I just have to say

As always, thank you for your ask! And sending all my love ~G.

[aemontargaryen-bloodraven]

OMG you are right. But it only makes it worse because I just saw this morning on twt someone saying the visenya thing and now you factually end the other reason. They have cero evidence and.is still preaches like the bible HOLY FU

This is just only one of the many nonsensical takes/fanons/theories that are passed around as canon in this fandom.

Some other ones being, Dany burning Kings Landing, Political genius Sansa, Indian Martells, Executioner Arya, Jon being Ned 2.0 (this one is such an insult to Jon.).

...and Jon is the somehow chained to the North, Wall and Winterfell. His story begins and ends there.

Look, if people wanna go off and believe that Jon is the Starkiest Stark to ever Stark, they can. I dare say that it would be interesting if (because we don't know what GRRM intends to do with Jon's Targ heritage/Aurane and FAegon are feasible candidates for dragons riding) he was somehow the son of Brandon and Ashara but things happened so Ned claimed Jon for a bastard and then sent him to the Watch.

Someone would still know the truth about Brandon and Ashara and we can still have a conflicted Jon and a good Stark Succession Crisis...and yes, Jon can also fall in love with his supposed sister (whichever one you ship him with) because it would still be cousin incest.

As for Dany and Jon, it can still happen. Jon and Dany falling in love with each other with all the complications of what their respective fathers did and the complicated family history.

The whole thing also works because it makes Jon, a candidate for Dawn, a blade more potent than Valyrian Steel against the Others.

I am sorry I am rambling. BUT WHAT DOES THAT MAN WANT TO DO WITH R+L=J PLAGUES MY WAKING HOURS!

[fiovske]

like do i think tom is a good actor? yes. is the writing on the mcu movies, SPECIFICALLY his movies, so fucking awful that it gives me a migraine? also yes. is that his fault? no. does that mean i think criticisms of mcu spidey aren’t valid? no. some of y’all (aka anyone being gross in your inbox) need to like drink some water and take a screenwriting class.

no fr! exactly

[imposterogers]

My friend raised an interesting point weeks ago about NWH and is so true. The movie has been a success but not because of Holland's Peter or the characters with him but because of the non-MCU characters and the other Spider-Man’s that were making a cameo and that speaks a lot about the way the characters in the MCU have been written and if they’ve actually resonated with the public at all and makes you wonder why despite everything – the other versions of Spider-Man hold such an important place in culture despite 20 years since Tobey’s.

People want to deny this but while Tom is so talented and charismatic, everything that makes Peter what he is was removed from the movies. They didn’t create anything new, this Peter is just Miles Molares but white, which is why Holland being like "let’s bring Miles!" in a recent interview is like but what type of storyline can he get when everything was copied and pasted for you? Let’s be honest. It’s the way that I could watch Spider-Man: Into The Verse more times than any of the recent Spider-Man movies speaks volumes on it.

The Peter that I grew up loving is the one that was part of the working class – but like it truly felt like a person in the neighborhood, the one that would do everything about the Spider-Man suit at home, the nerd that loves science and would ramble about it for hours which is a quality they removed from MCU!Peter to make a "cooler version", the Peter that would fight those bullies and help the little people and which essence was in the idea that he could be anyone in the city. But MCU Peter was revolved around the Avengers and Iron Man which is why MCU fans are so against any type of criticism. And this is the worst thing for me because this Spider-Man that is sponsored by Tony Stark is so against Peter as a character, the reason Spider-Man’s villains exist is because they were working class people who were wronged by the billionaires and big corporations so to have Peter praising and crying for one of them is so out of character and infuriating to watch.

The writers relied so much on the Avangers hype that they didn’t develop an interesting supporting cast around Peter. All of them are very bland and it feel like self inserts with not actual personality. MJ is extremely bland as a love interest – it is wasn’t for Zendaya I don’t think anyone would care about this character. Emma Stone's Gwen remains the best love interest for Peter with an actual fleshed out background followed by Kristen Dunst. Aunt May just feels very strange to me and it feels like they were trying for a younger version for audience proposes only, and Ned was underdeveloped as well because they don’t feel as characters on their own but an extension.

The talk of the film have been all around Andrew's or Tobey’s Spider-Man and that might suggest that they dropped the ball in making Tom’s Spider-Man relatable to the audiences. And I really hope they can use either of those actors (maybe Andrew) as an adult version of Peter which I think could offer so much more and this is the narrative they should’ve done towards instated of a Miles Morales 2.0.

//

[kellyvela]

GRRM has said in interviews that he’s purposely played with the romantic tension between the hound and Sansa. What do you think the endgame purpose of the unkiss and that playing is meant to be for?

This is all what he said about the matter in question so far:

The Hound and Sansa, romantic or platonic? It could be very different things to each of those involved, mind you!

JUNE 24, 1999 THE HOUND AND SANSA

Moreta12: I understand, I’ve heard your opinion on that. In ACOK, it seems that the relationship between the Hound and Sansa had romantic undertones. Is that true?

GeoRR: Well, read the book and decide for yourself.

Moreta12: I’ve read the book and I’ve debated those particular scenes with a few others. Half say that it’s romantic and half say it’s platonic. I’ve taken the romantic stance.

GeoRR:  It could be very different things to each of those involved, mind you

Moreta12:Yes, but it seem like evidence points towards romantic undertones. Will the Hound appear later?

GeoRR: Yes, the Hound will be in STORM OF SWORDS. In fact, I just finished writing a big scene with him.

[Source]

When will Sansa be “legal”?  **ºª@”¡¿x<%$!&?

OCTOBER 05, 1999 AGE OF SEXUAL RELATIONS IN WESTEROS

The nature of the relationship between Sandor and Sansa has been a hot topic on Revanshe’s board. Sansa’s youth has been one focus of the discussion. What is the general Westerosi view as to romantic or sexual relationships involving a girl of Sansa’s age and level of physical maturity?

A boy is Westeros is considered to be a “man grown” at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us.

However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant… and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding.

A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A “maid,” in other words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers.

In the “general Westerosi view,” well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood.

Maidens may be wedded and bedded… however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted.

As in the real Middle Ages, highborn girls tend to flower significantly earlier than those of lower birth. Probably a matter of nutrition. As a result, they also tend to marry earlier, and to bear children earlier. There are plenty of exceptions.

[Source]

Unreliable Narrator

JUNE 26, 2001 SF, TARGARYENS, VALYRIA, SANSA, MARTELLS, AND MORE

[GRRM is asked about Sansa misremembering the name of Joffrey’s sword.]

The Lion’s Paw / Lion’s Tooth business (*), on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom… but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it’s a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

[Source]

(*) It was Arya who misremembered the name of Joffrey’s sword tho…

Unreliable Narrator 2.0

OCTOBER 05, 2002 SANSA’S MEMORY

[Note: This mail has been edited for brevity.]

… this is an inconsistency with ASoS more than an outright error. In ASoS, Sansa thinks that the Hound kissed her before leaving her room and King’s Landing. In ACoK, no kiss is mentioned in the scene, though Sansa did think that he was about to do so.

Well, not every inconsistency is a mistake, actually. Some are quite intentional. File this one under “unreliable narrator” and feel free to ponder its meaning

[Source]

Unreliable Narrator 3.0

NOVEMBER 27, 2007 GEORGE R.R. MARTIN ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS

Here’s a really particular question (which I realize means it probably won’t get asked in a general interview): In A Storm of Swords, there is a chapter early on where Sansa is thinking back to the scene at the end of A Clash of Kings when The Hound came into her room during the battle. She thinks in the chapter about how he kissed her, but in the scene in A Clash of Kings, this actually didn’t happen. Was that a typo or something? —Valdora

GRRM: It’s not a typo. It is something! [Laughs] ”Unreliable narrator” is the key phrase there. The second scene is from Sansa’s thoughts. And what does that reveal about her psychologically? I try to be subtle about these things.

[Source]

Sansa may be dead but Alayne is alive

APRIL 15, 2008 FUTURE MEETINGS, POVS, ARYA’S ROLE, EASTERN LANDS, AND ASSASSINS

[Will Sandor and Sansa meet?]

Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There’s only Alayne Stone.

[Source]

A lot more dangerous than romantic

AUGUST 2, 2009 AS SER JORAH MORMONT…

weltraummuell: The Hound Oh please don’t cast an old guy for the Hound, his scenes with Sansa are so romantic and erotic, I couldn’t bear if it’d feel creepy all of a sudden. Well, that’s me making demands. LOL

GRRM: Re: The Hound Old guy? No, but… the Hound is still a whole lot older than Sansa, and was never written as attractive… you know, those hideous burns and all that… he’s a lot more dangerous than he is romantic.

kestrana: The Hound Yeah its a “girl always wants the bad boy” kind of thing although Sansa seems to pull something else out of him. It feels so wrong sometimes but I want to see them together again tee hee.

weltraummuell: The Hound Hehe, George, maybe you didn’t intend it, but he turned out to be a very erotic character to female readers. Especially since he’s mutilated and dangerous. Makes him unpredictable and vulnerable which is the most explosive aphrodisiac for a girl’s fantasy. ;)

weltraummuell: The Hound And I know from discussions on other board other women feel just the same about Sandor. He’s an absolute favourite with the ladies!

halfbloodmalfoy: The Hound LOL, you’re such a man. To many of us women, dangerous *is* attractive.

GRRM: The Hound But no one has any love for poor old Sam Tarly, kind and smart and decent and devoted…

[Source]

I played with it but I didn’t get the answer I was waiting for

JUNE 22, 2012 SWORD & LASER VIDEO PODCAST

GRRM: I am sometimes surprised by the reactions, of women in particular, to some of the villains. The number of women over the years who have written to me that their favorite characters are Jaime Lannister or Sandor Clegane [the Hound] or Theon Greyjoy… All of these are deeply troubled individuals with some very dark sides, who have done some very dark things. Nonetheless, they do draw this response, and quite heavily, I think, in the case of some of them, from my female readers in particular.

Veronica Belmont: I’m a big fan of the Hound, myself, actually.

Tom Merritt: Of Sandor? Really?

Veronica Belmont: Yeah, the Hound… Maybe it’s not because I feel any compassion towards them, I’m not really sure what the attraction is. Ah, I’m not going to call it attraction, actually. Let’s just say it’s a fascination, perhaps.

GRRM: [Chuckles] Well, I mean, fascination is one thing, but some of these letters indicate that there really is like a romantic attraction going on there. And I do know there’s all these people out there who are, as they call themselves, the “San/San” fans, who want to see Sandor and Sansa get together at the end. So that’s interesting, too.

Tom Merritt: The TV show has sort of played with that a little, and probably stoked those fires.

GRRM: Oh, sure. And I’ve played with it in the books. There’s something there, but it’s still interesting to see how many people have responded to it.

[Source]

I played with it but I didn’t get the answer I was waiting for 2.0

JUNE 23, 2015 GRRM Q&A AT THE SCIENCE FICTION BOOKSTORE IN STOCKHOLM

Question: “Is there any fan reactions that you have been surprised by, like is there a character that’s more popular than you thought or have people been shocked by something you didn’t think we would be shocked at?”

GRRM: “I’m reasonably certain what people will be shocked by. I knew that the Red Wedding would provoke a big reaction and it did. I was pretty confident that, you know, throwing Bran out the window and then killing Ned in the first book would get reactions, and indeed they did. All of those worked exactly the way it did to the extent that things that have surprised me, they tend to be smaller things. I guess I… Maybe I should not have, I don’t know. How do I phrase this without getting myself in terrible trouble… I guess I don’t understand women, but I was definitely, you know, way back when, surprised by the number of women who reacted positively to characters like Theon and the Hound as dashing, romantic figures. The san/san kind of thing took me by surprise, I must admit, and even more so the women who, and there are some, who really like Theon. So that surprised me.”

[Source]

Unreliable Narrator 4.0

DECEMBER 2016 ASKING GEORGE R.R. MARTIN ABOUT S@N/S@N

My question is regarding Sansa Stark. Her sexuality has evolved through every book and yet the memory that seems to stick the more with her in this regard is the night of the Blackwater. So I was wondering if you can expand on your view on what this is, since as before that night her interactions with Sandor Clegane weren’t really physical.

The night of the Blackwater, yes. Ahhh… Well, I’m not going to give you a straight answer on that hahaha… Uhmmm, but I would say that ahhh… you know a television show and a book each has its own strengths and weaknesses; there a re tools that are available to me as a novelist, that are not available to people doing a television show. And of course there are tools available to them, that are not available to a novelist, I mean they can lay in a soundtrack, they can do special effects, they can do amazing things that I can’t do, I just have words on paper. What can I do, well I can use things like the internal narrative, I can take you inside of territories… thoughts, which you can’t do in a TV show… Ahhh… You just have the words they speak, you see them from outside because the camera is external, while prose is internal, and I have the device known as “unreliable narrator”… Ahhh… Which again, they don’t have. So, think about those two aspects when you consider that night of the Blackwater.

[Source]

Do with it what you will.

[astradrifting]

If Jon is betrothed to Dany in the book, then do you think we might see some jealous Sansa POV ? In the show inspite of not being betrothed , Sansa did harbour a bit of jealousy towards their dynamic which seemed quite abnormal if the jealousy wasn't coded as romantic ? If Jon is really in love with D@ny before he betrays her then I don't think it would be narratively satisfying for Sansa to get married to Jon after he returns home . It would be a continuation of Ned Cat only this time the man in the dynamic would have had a romantic relationship with a woman in South before he finally returns North after the War . What Cat feared Ned did in the South would be basically done by Jon and I don't think it would be fair to Sansa . Just my 2 cents .

(referencing this post)

Oh no I totally agree with you about that anon, I wouldn’t really want jonsa after any genuine jonerice. But I don’t think there will be - a betrothal in the scenario I was thinking of would be a purely political arrangement, a last-ditch attempt at reconciliation between the two opposing Targ factions after the Dance 2.0, before D@ny realises that nobody wants her as queen and burns down KL. For Jon it would just be duty, not love, and possibly not even a duty that he’d intend to follow through on - he’s shown in ASOS and ADWD that he’s willing to lie and do dishonourable things for the greater good, and coming back from the dead/surviving a mutiny would probably only strengthen that resolve.

Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. "Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?" the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man’s honor.

(ADWD, Jon VIII)

This quote from ADWD might foreshadow his betrayal of D@ny at the end too. In AGOT, Ned didn’t approve of the small council plotting her murder, and resigned over it. He probably wouldn’t exactly approve of Jon murdering her either, like he didn’t approve of Jaime killing Aerys - however it happens, it’s probably not going to be an honourable death in the field of combat. But in the end it’ll be what’s best for the realm. Jon’s not going to be impressed by what he sees of D@ny’s ruling capabilities, let alone the fact that she burns anyone who opposes her and will have just killed his half-brother to usurp the throne. I wouldn’t be surprised if he agreed to a betrothal or alliance whilst secretly planning on betraying her the whole time, he can be a vicious, underhanded bastard (and I love him for it ❤️)

D@ny’s mistake was thinking that Jorah was the treason for love because he loved her, but that was more a betrayal of his love, for money/the chance to go home. Jon will commit the final treason against her for love of somebody else - maybe Sansa like the show, maybe the Starks as a whole, maybe even for love of Aegon and as revenge for his death, if they’d formed a brotherly bond like I think they might.

So, to finally answer the original question lol, there could be a Sansa POV chapter where she hears about a jonerice betrothal and is jealous and heartbroken, though she might understand/Jon could tell her that it’s only for the good of the realm. But I think that’d be quickly followed by the news that KL has been destroyed and Jon has killed D@ny because of it, so she’ll be more focused on getting him freed than any jealousy. It’ll end up more as the truth of the Ned-Cat relationship, that he never actually betrayed her with another woman in the South, but better because there won’t be a huge secret and bastard child hanging between them.

(You’re also totally right about show!Sansa’s jealousy not really making sense if you don’t read it as romantic, it went well beyond her political opposition to D@ny about the North’s independence and was specifically about the ‘connection’ between Jon and D@ny. That feast scene where she storms off when Jon briefly turns to smile at D@ny?? What is that meant to convey if not romantic jealousy???)

[what-do-1000-swords-look-like]

Love is the death of duty vs Duty is the death of love

I’ve been rewatching some season 1 episodes and man do they hit different now knowing how it all ends. A lot of us already know that Jon chose love over duty, that he chose to protect Sansa (and the Starks by extension) by killing Dany, which fulfilled Jon’s promise to Sansa from season 6. We also already know they were attempting to make Jon Ned 2.0 but watching this season, I didn’t realize just how much:

“Tell me, did you ever wonder why men of the Night’s Watch take no wives and father no children?”

“No.”

“So they will not love. Love is the death of duty. If the day should ever come when your lord father was forced to choose, between honor on the one hand, and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

“He would do whatever was right. No matter what.”

“And Lord Stark is one man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother’s smile?”

...

“Yet, sooner or later, there comes a day in every man’s life where it is not easy. A day when he must choose.”

“Then this is my day. Is that what you’re saying?”

“It hurts, boy. Oh, yes. I know.”

“You do not know. No one knows. I may be a bastard but he is my father and Robb is my brother.”

*Aemon laughs*

“I will not tell you stay or go. You must make that choice yourself and live with it the rest of your days.” (x)

I’m not saying that D&D knew this early on how the series would end. But I do remember GRRM being involved in the show up until season 4 I think it was. It really was all going to come down to the choice Jon made. And how ironic that a Targaryen is the one to pose this question to him, a Targaryen that is part of the Night’s Watch as Maester. 

Ned chose to honor Lyanna’s request and keep Jon safe, spawning the heartbreak of Catelyn and people doubting his honor, two very important things to him before his family grew. This choice was considered dishonorable by the outside world (they did not know the real reason). Ned made his choice and lived it with the rest of his days. Jon was not Ned’s son but his nephew, the trueborn son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. 

Jon chose to keep his promise to Sansa and keep her safe, spawning the consequences of killing Dany and his banishment to the Wall. This choice was considered dishonorable by the outside world (they think they know the reason why but they don’t truly know why Jon chose to do it outside of KL massacre). Jon made his choice and now he has to live with it the rest of his days. Sansa was not his half-sister but his cousin, the trueborn daughter of Ned and Catelyn.

Jon indeed chose Love over Duty just like Ned did. And that is also why he has Ned’s armor on when going to confront Dany in the throne room.

He wasn’t just echoing Robb. The show wasn’t just displaying subtly that Jon was listening to Sansa’s warning from 7x01 about being smarter than both Ned and Robb. He was also channeling Ned, in the fact that he had to make a decision just as Ned did once upon a time. If Robert ever found out that Ned had been harboring a child of Rhaegar’s that his beloved Lyanna bore to the Prince that stole her... It was a dangerous decision but the right one, regardless of how dishonorable it made him look. Jon has also been faced with a dangerous decision but the right one, regardless of how dishonorable it eventually makes him look to parts of Westeros. 

Tyrion had that little clever spinoff of Aemon’s line that we all remember: “Duty is the death of love” -- because Tyrion thought Jon was just as much in love with Dany as he was, and even likens Jon to Jaime. But Jon never answered him or nodded or confirmed in any way that Tyrion was right. And even though Jaime is a mirror for him in the story, and Cersei has been paralleled with Dany throughout the series, other than their relationship being considered incestuous by Westeros, Jon/Dany are not the new Jaime/Cersei, and definitely not at this point in the story.

Jaime and Cersei are twins. Jon and Dany are two sides of the same coin while being aunt and nephew. Jaime and Cersei grew up together. Jon and Dany did not. Jaime and Cersei were raised to be Lannister first. Jon was a bastard in the Stark family and is taught family is important. Dany was raissed on the run and taught that the Targaryens are the rightful ruling family and that the IT/Westeros is theirs by right. Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is considered forbidden due to it being incestuous (something Westeros is trying to get away from after Aerys). Jon and Dany’s relationship is not considered forbidden (because no one really knows who Jon is yet). The only similarity the two relationships share is that Cersei/Dany become queen and Jaime/Jon become a sort of knight/advisor role to each of them, as well as both individuals being related by blood. 

And this is why Jon repeats Aemon’s line in that 8x06 jail cell scene after Tyrion talks about being in love with Dany, Jon being in love with Dany, and compares him to Jaime. Because Aemon’s dialogue to Jon back in season 1 confirms exactly what choice Jon made in the end:

“So they will not love. Love is the death of duty. If the day should ever come when your lord father was forced to choose, between honor on the one hand, and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

“He would do whatever was right. No matter what.”

“And Lord Stark is one man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms? Or a brother’s smile?”

8x06 script: “Jon knows what it means for those he loves most”

Jon chose Love over Duty. He protected Sansa like Ned protected him. It came full circle. 

Edit 4/23/21: credit goes to @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir​ for catching that Ned died dishonoring himself for love as well. And funnily enough, Sansa was also one of the ones he wanted to protect when making that decision, choosing to confess his treason. 

[th3-r4t-k1ng]

Ok- but like, Theater Kid Peter Parker who is still Spider-Man?

Like:

•He got bit behind a theatre, that the theater club went on a field trip too, that, surprise, surprise is near Oscorp.

•Peter and, by Proxy Spider-Man is 10000 times more dramatic, and he adds ton of Vine references.

Example: Bad guy punchs Spider-Man? queue Peter Dramatically dying for 10 seconds before he socks the criminal right in the face.

•Hes still a genius in the STEM subjects but he isnt an the AcDec team and no one notices him when it comes to the marks

•He has ab amazing memory, he’s anxious and shy until you stick him on stage, and then you get Tony Stark level theatrics.

•Tony notices him purely because of Spider-Man and then suddenly ‘how and why is this child fixing my sleep deprived calculations and getting it RIGHT!?’

•tying in with Spider-Son and iron-dad, Tony Stark showing up to the theater to watch the (his) kid preform

•when peter meets the rest of the team He, Nat, and Bucky hit it off right away, they constantly watch musicals together and the two adults help him rehearse.

•The whole theatre club is LGBT+ and Peter dosent feel the need to come out to them. He just randomly shows up with news that hes taken and has no problem with telling them its a guy.

•Theatre Cult. if youve ever been in theatre youve been apart of at least one theatre cult. The Midtown theatre club found an old calculator thats screen is stuck on ‘4311’ Peter added robot luke legs and arms and now they worship him. the calculator is called Calleigh.

•Ned is his childhood friend; Peter helps ned with homework occasionally, ned helps him memorize his script and they both build lego together.

•Harley and peter meet at the tower; they hit it off right away, Peter and Harly make the Potato gun 2.0 and before tony can blink the two are dating

•Endgame, and Far From home arent the same; his identity was never revealed and Tony never died, neither did Nat and Steve didnt stay in the past.

•Aunt may is amazing but busy with work a lot of the time but she tries her best

and thats all i got so far ᗡ:

[esther-dot]

Ok but what do you think that dany's motive for burning KL will be in the books? I tend to think it's the treason for love when she discovers Jon is in love with another. That and him being praised as a hero, his id known, will bring home the original "let him be king of the ashes". I think she will want to destroy Jon's potential of becoming a "happy" king. And then Bran steps in to release him. What a shame the show didn't have the guts to pull this angle through!

(in reference to this ask)

That’s a cool take on it!

I truly don’t know. The longer I think about all of this, the messier it is.

If we have a prolonged interaction between Jon and Dany (with Dany going North first and both going South later), I can definitely see what you’re saying. I mean, s8 presented the idea that she wouldn’t be accepted in Westeros, that she realized she didn’t have love and that she would either rule by fear or nothing, and it felt like she was threatening Sansa’s life to keep Jon in line in 8x05, that she knew he didn’t love her (hence, “let it be fear”), so something akin to what you’re saying may certainly be what Martin told D&D.

My issue is, I don’t think Jon can be implicated in the burning of KL, or Bran wouldn’t be a preferred candidate for king, so I’m hesitant to place Jon in KL as an ally to Dany when she burns it. And if he is there, I don’t see how it could be with a Northern army. I mean, how does Martin write the Lords of Westeros selecting Bran if Northmen were involved in the greatest atrocity they’ve ever seen? Maybe Martin will do it, it just seems weird to me. If this is to have more of Robert's Rebellion's parallels (rather than strictly DoD 2.0), and Jon is the one to kill her a la Jaime and Aerys, maybe she burns KL when taking it from Aegon, Jon stabbity stabs, and then Bran shows up. There’s a line about Ned racing to KL that made me wonder. So, I’m not sure how much Jon’s parentage would weigh on Dany that way unless she feels how tentative her hold on Westeros is.

But practically speaking, I’m not sure how Jon could be a threat that way to Dany. I mean, after Dany v Euron and Dany v Aegon, and the North v Others, who will have the means to support Jon v Dany? I don’t know how it would be possible. Also, even if they did, I’m not sure what proof we will have of Jon’s birth. It seems like something people will recognize as true if it serves their purposes, deny if it doesn’t. We’ll know the truth, not sure that there will be a universal understanding in-world. I lean towards the idea of some people wanting Jon to be king after the wars and him refusing for Aemon parallels (link), and that being part of the events that lead to Bran being king as driftingsnowflakes outlined (link), but now I wonder if they wont go to war with Dany. I used to think that we needed a showdown, but considering how anti war Martin is, I’m no longer sure if we will get a clean victory. It might feel too much like glorifying war because then the path to kingship for Bran was via war. And, that’s the thing, if Bran is to represent this new era, I wondered if he would prevent there being any “right of conquest” to his kingship. That made me think back to the Arya killing Dany idea, and the possibility that Starks v Dany plays out in the shadows/subterfuge rather than out and out war, especially with the talk about Dany fighting shadows and there are some quotes about wolves and shadows that I’ll have to revisit.

I guess I would say, it makes sense for Jon’s identity to play into Dany’s paranoia, and I still think Jon is Dany’s treason for love, so your idea totally works, but I don’t want Dany’s decision to burn KL to be about other people. To me, Dany has that struggle between peace and war, and her choice to take the Iron Throne has always involved sacrificing the life of others for that goal. So, I think taking the throne should be the escalation of that. I think she should face a moment in which she must choose to kill innocents to get her throne, or not have it at all. I would like her to give up her patina of wanting good things for people to acknowledge what has been true all along: she wants what she wants and she is willing for people to die to get it. I guess my thought is, maybe she will suffer so many losses, she will have to use dragons on KL or fail to take the throne.

I mean, we have two more books, I don’t know how she will evolve from here to there, but her motivation has always been the throne, I would like it to stay that way so that fans can tie it back to the first book, to her burning Mirri alive to get her dragons and realize, oh, this was always the way Dany’s journey to the throne was going to be, how it was going to end. All this evil has been done to win the throne, her final atrocity being done for the same purpose makes sense to me. But it’s hard for me to see how all these pieces we know need to be included work together.

Sorry, I’m back to my “I only have questions and no answers!” routine.

[c-sand]

I’ll never get over that one of the biggest crimes Game of Thrones ever committed was constantly having Sansa Stark saying bad/self deprecating things about herself throughout the series, especially as we started to get towards the ending seasons. She’s a slow learner. She’s stupid. She doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She needed to be emotionally and sexually abused by all of the evil nasty men she was surrounded by in order to become a ‘strong woman’ instead of the child everyone starts out as. She never learns.

It’s true that Sansa, herself, may be thinking these things about herself. She’s been living in a constant state of fear and danger. She’s been emotionally and sexually used and abused and groomed for years. She’s been beaten and humiliated and sold. She’s been tricked and manipulated, as a pawn, to suit eight million different people’s wills and desires. She’s been looked down upon by basically every person she encounters, who all act like the things she’s saying are as true as the sky being blue -- even though we (as a Non-Sansa-Hating audience, at least), know she’s actually extremely smart and underestimated by the people around her. 

At the front half of the show, when Sansa has lines about how she feels she’s a stupid, slow learning, idiot, fantasy filled child who’s at fault for everything that’s gone wrong, it feels authentic -- for whichever reason she’s saying it, it feels authentic. Whether she’s saying those things about herself, because she’s feeling those things about herself, or because she’s caught in a life or death moment and she’s pleading with the person who’s trying to toss her off a mountain that’s she she’s too dumb to work against them or be any sort of threat, at all. When she talks about being a stupid little bird, even though I hate watching my girl say those things about herself, it feels (whether it’s internal emotion or outward survival) like actual characterization in that moment. 

But, it stops being about that somewhere in the middle. Those lines are no longer about Sansa, as a character, functioning in this world with actual feelings and thoughts. She’s no longer saying what needs to be said in order to make the people around her think she’s incapable. She’s no longer saying what she might emotionally feel in her heart are her own flaws. Those lines are no longer about serving to tell a story with Sansa and for Sansa.

Those lines are about serving to tell a story with and for the audience. The audience who HATE her, because Ned f’d up and because she yelled at Arya a couple of times while Arya yelled back.

Those lines turn into weapons against her in order to *wink wink nudge nudge* at the audience who hates this girl, for no good reason. To say, “Ha, Sansa Stark is the WORST, am I right? lolz don’t worry guys, we know and so does she.” Those lines exist to try and frame her every action, her every sentence, her every moment of having the audacity to draw breath in a room of fan favorite characters, as a springboard for the audience to viscously attack her and undermine the things she does and the moves she makes. They’re lines of permission given to spew unnecessary bile towards her. “You can cheer for her rape and root for her death, even though she legitimately is not at fault for a single thing that’s gone wrong (as if that would make those things justified) don’t worry. Even SHE hates herself! Let’s all hate her together!”

And it’s truly one of the worst things this show did. 

They had this girl (this super smart girl, who was truly one of the best players in the game from the very start) (Sansa Stark is such a good player of the game that she convinced the majority of the audience, FOR NO REASON, up until the very end, that she was Cerse 2.0. FOR NO REASON) (oop she said she learned a lot from Cersei! Sansa’s obviously PLOTTING A TAKEOVER FROM JON!!!) say that she knew she was a slow learning dumbo who takes forever to learn a lesson (she’s not and she doesn’t), while she’s simultaneously taking down the man who orchestrated the entire war. They tried to imply (and blah blah deleted scene) that Sansa was being fooled by Petyr Finger and blah blah. But, Sansa isn’t stupid and hasn’t trusted Petyr Finger for so beyond long. She didn’t even trust him at the Vale, before Ramsay. She didn’t save him there because she was whipped for him and thought he was a miracle, she saved him because he was at least a variable that she felt she understood the desires of -- whereas she didn’t know the people in the Vale, at all -- didn’t know what they would do to her, after they took care of him. And she did, really, know his desires. She just didn’t know what he’d do with those desires and what’d he’d do to her in order to get these desires met.

That line doesn’t exist to show how she’s grown. It’s not a power line in a scene where she tries one of her and her families greatest threats, for the crimes he’s committed. It’s not about her, at all. It’s a buffer for the audience to laugh about how she’s been useless this entire time, even though she hasn’t been. It’s a buffer for the audience to say she finally learned the truth about the people around her and stopped being a fool, even though she actually learned that in season one and has been playing a part ever since.

They had this girl sit down with one of her many tormenters (The Hound saving her a couple of times does not erase that he literally walks around tormenting her) (his desire for her is extremely apparent, as is his constantly backing her into corners and purposefully scaring her, speaking very sexually violent towards her -- don’t even get me started on the ‘broken in’ line) and say that she needed to be abused, beaten, and raped to grow from the little bird she was into the woman she is today. As if something about that is an empowering statement. 

That line doesn’t exist to say, “LOok how stRonG shE iS now!!” It exists to say, “Sansa Stark was a bad and weak child, you’re right audience. She needed to be taught a lesson, she needed be broken, by bad men, to be worth anything. We’ve made her worth something, you’re welcome.”

ect. ect. ect.

The only time in the back half of this show that Sansa was allowed to do anything without having a line making sure to bookend that she’s weak and stupid, but somehow she’s managed to make it here bravo you did it gold star, is when she gets to kill Ramsay after the battle. And the only reason that there isn’t one there, is because they probably knew they could get away with not having to make sure to give a *wink wink* excuse as to why she could possibly be doing something worthwhile in the scene. Everyone hates Ramsay, they’re just going to be so thrilled that he’s dying and that’s she’s killing him with his own dogs, that’s she actually allowed to just exist within the scene without some meta line about how she was dumb for ever getting (being forced) into a situation where she was marrying him, to begin with. She was just allowed to take out her abuser, because they knew you were going to be cheering it on. 

They don’t have to soften the “blow” that it’s crappy useless Sansa doing it, because everyone can look past their hate of Sansa to cheer on their hate of Ramsay.

And gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!! It’s just one of the greatest crimes from Game of Thrones. That they stopped letting Sansa be an actual character with actual story and actual emotions. And they instead made her a sound board of lines for the audience to try and, like, justify her existence. “She’s bumbling through, guys. She’s so stupid, she made it here by dumb luck. You’re all right, you’re so smart. Unlike her. This dumbo.”

We’re so lucky that Sansa is obviously a pivotal character otherwise, based on how often they have her talk her own character down, they probably would’ve just killed her off. Thank god George must’ve been like, “Listen you idiots, here’s my list of ending things, she ends up Queen in the North, you can’t just off her.”

But, boy oh boy did they seemingly retaliate with the next best thing -- having her rip her own self apart every chance they can reasonably get.