#things to remember about discourse and activism

[pwnyta]

is it okay if i drop fandom salt here out of nowhere?

u can ignore this if its not.

okay so. deltarune spoilers for newest chapters, i know ur not in the fandom but for the ppl who are

so the game has two big routes and one of the routes is the weird route, where the player has to do all sorts of contrived shit to access it, i remember when ch2 dropped and everyone didnt believe it bc it sounded too much like a creepypasta but it was real. it involved manipulating your childhood friend/party member to the point where she ended up freezing her friend so now he cant wake up anymore.

theres a new scene in the new chapters where it could be interpreted as a SA allegory.

This scene was basically just the player forcibly putting a thorned ring on the character you were manipulating then it cuts to black and shows a small sprite of a rose wilting.

note that it just shows this. I wont deny that it felt really on the nose even if its up for interpretation, but it didnt like. imply or show any Actual SA.

But people still complained, saying how could Toby show this on a game thats rated *checks* T for Teens and up where children could see.

So they changed the wilting rose to a red dot, which funnily enough, just seemed to make things worse because how could Toby not put two and two together and realize that the scene could come off as an SA allegory etc etc.

Idk man, I don't really care about the wilting rose graphic or what it implied when they changed it. But the game didn't show any sexual assault content or even imply it, it was still just one character forcing another character to do something they didn't want. Which is awful but has been present from the previous chapter and still not actual SA or even implied it. Like maybe alluded to it metaphorically, but its not like it actually happened.

People are free to interpret it as an SA allegory but its still just an allegory. And the scene only happens if you go out of your way to find it in the weird route. It doesn't happen in a normal route if you're just playing casually. You, the player, have to backtrack multiple times to find it and do really specific things and pick really specific dialogue options thats hard to come by in a normal playthrough. It's something that the player has to willingly choose to go through and actively search for.

It also just reminded me of the Jasper and Lapis discourse in the SU fandom if you remember that lol. Should SU have been rated above T and up too.

Sorry for the super late response I didnt realize how long its been I was busy goin through it but I guess I gotta just get over it. Thanks for sending me something to distract me from it.

Uhm YEAH. Getting mad a something that could possibly be interpreted as an SA allegory even when nothing of the sort is depicted or talked about and the player dont even NEED to interact with the scene if they dont want to... is dumb. Obviously. I genuinely dont know what else to say TBH its bafflingly dumb.

The Jasper/Lapis shit was dumb too... especially when the Pearl/Garnet situation happened and everyone just joked about it.

[unrivalling]

I don’t normally do this. I do not like infighting or anything that can lead to infighting. I want to start off by saying that I understand where you’re coming from, and that I have not seen the discourse you have. I understand you’ve seen things from people that have made you feel like this—and that’s fair. I’m not trying to take that away from you, or say you have not seen those things. It’s my goal to share another perspective, in good faith, and it’s my hope that you will take this perspective in good faith, as I am intending to take yours.

I’m also someone who has transited from identifying as a bi woman, to identifying as a lesbian, to today, being queer and nonbinary. I don’t consider any of these statuses more real than any of the others, just that they were and are each true for how I was operating at different points in my life. Not everyone’s sexuality or gender identity is fluid, but mine has been.

I share this only because it means I’ve seen a lot of different sides of the discourse, as you put it. I’ve also been on tumblr since about 2012, and I witnessed the rise of a lot of different talking points that now seem entrenched. Again, this does not mean people of any identity have not leveraged these in an unfair or cruel way, but I think it provides context.

When I first came out as queer, it was as a bi woman at ~19 or so. Like a lot of young queer people at the time, my primary place for learning about queer history and culture was tumblr, which was largely full of other baby gays. There’s nothing inherently wrong with this! But it was a lot of people talking about half-remembered history and high-level academic theories, often with the intent of applying social pressure to others—which I’m sorry, is just what young people tend to do on a macro scale.

In an environment of lateral aggression, a lot of people are going to say things that suck, are inaccurate, or cruel, as a way of propping up their identities from their own insecurities. I have seen this be true for every single group of queer people on the internet.

So you ask why it seems like bi women are seeking validation of their queerness from lesbians. There are a couple different answers to this, but the way this played our on tumblr in the past is that in these early tumblr spaces with a lot of young, traumatized queer women of all identities, a lot of lesbians in this space were actively positioning themselves as the standard bearers of true queer female identity, to the coalitional exclusion of bi, pan, and ace women in particular.

Just like I acknowledge you have encountered language that makes lesbians out to be unnecessarily aggressive or mean, or is demanding something of them that simply cannot be given, as someone who—at the time—was a young bi woman on tumblr in 2015, I also witnessed a lot of lesbians saying that bi women have never been a part of queer women’s communities (untrue), that they cannot use the words butch or femme (a small group of bi women, in response to this, in my opinion, ahistoric and unreasonable demand, actually tried to come up with alternatives using the words “buck” and “doe”), that they can’t reclaim slurs, because even if they had been called slurs, those slurs were targeting lesbians (bi women have always been a part of the Dyke March and Dykes on Bikes), that bi women will always leave you for a man (just textbook biphobia), and that they can just never understand the isolation and oppression of lesbians (something you can simply just never know about the internal life of another person).

Basically, what I’m saying, from an alternative perspective of how the Discourse on this hellsite looked ~10 years ago, there was a lot of rhetoric, a lot of it from lesbians, specifically designed to uplift lesbian identity and history at the expense of other groups of queer women, despite the historically close connection between these groups, the overlap, and often arbitrary differences.

Now I think it’s important to remember that this is not and cannot be gatekeeping—no group of queer people has the institutional power to gatekeep others from anything—but when you’re young and the Hellsite is your primary way of finding community and learning about yourself, esp circa 2015, the words of others, and the thousands of little micro-cults of personality that formed around pseudo-theory and politics, it felt like they had that power. And speaking for myself as someone who was severely, severely depressed from growing up closeted in an unstable environment…that shit did have a majorly negative impact on me. There was a lot of rhetoric, mostly from lesbians, that bi women were simply guests in queer spaces and in the movement for rights, profiting off of the REAL work that lesbians had done for decades.

So to your question about the idea of young bi women looking for and seeking validating of lesbians, a lot of that comes from lesbians acting like they have the power to bestow that.

Additionally, I have seen spaces specifically designed for inclusivity decried for not being lesbian-specific. The subject of isolationism is a separate one and outside the scope of this conversation, but I’m thinking of my experience in queer book publishing. Originally, queer romance was pretty much just divided into gay and lesbian. Later, the terms M/M and F/F came along—part of the reason for this was to be more inclusive for characters of a variety of identities and backgrounds. Now, I have seen at least one person complain about the presence of bi women in the F/F tag, claiming it is the “lesbian fiction label”. It’s one incident, but it represents a pattern that I have seen again and again.

I want to close by saying that I don’t care for infighting, or anything that has the appearance of it, but it’s important to talk about how these conflicts develop and entrench themselves over time. I also think it’s important to remember that a lot of this happened in the first place because Tumblr’s algorithm encouraged conflict, and elevated the most toxic voices to the people most hurt by it for “engagement”, and that the site did not have the common sense mitigations that it has for this today.

I share this only to say that this belief and this pattern comes from somewhere. I’m not going to pretend that some bi women have not said some busted things—imo some isolated individuals in every marginalized group will inevitably develop a superiority complex about it—but my only point is to share what I remember from the early days of said conflict, and how a lot of this developed from a space in which bi women were categorically seen as flighty, weak-willed, and uncommitted—a characterization that while not oppression, was deeply isolating and hurtful for people living through it.

not to engage in The Discourse™️ but why is it the job of lesbians to validate bisexuals... perchance your own assurance in the validity of your queerness is more an inner journey you have the responsibility of working... perchance it's not necessarily systemic oppression

[amillionmagpies]

This is your periodic reminder that it's possible for multiple people to be right at the same time. It's possible for multiple people to be wrong at the same time.

It's possible for people to be right about some things and wrong about others. It's possible for people to be kind in some situations and cruel in others.

It's possible to be oppressed and an oppressor. It's possible to be abused and an abuser.

It's possible for people to have equally valid needs that fundamentally conflict. It's possible for people to have worldviews that cannot be reconciled.

It's possible to have good intentions and do harm. It's possible to have bad intentions and do good.

People are complicated, the world is complicated, and simplifying everything down to a black and white worldview where some people are Bad (and therefore incapable of being right or kind or good) and some people are Good (and therefore incapable of being wrong or cruel or bad) is only going to cause harm.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled Tumblr.

[weirdo-twins]

This is good advice but there is a time limit, especially for more interpersonal things. Don't be sitting and stewing over something for months, meanwhile acting like things are fine because you're afraid of confrontation, and then throw something that happened six months ago in their face. This has happened to me/my wife and:

It deteriorates trust in the friendship because the other person feels like now they never know if you're secretly upset about something and any conversation could turn into a criticism

If it happened more than a week ago, there's a good chance you or they might have forgotten important context. They can't explain why they were doing something or if you were misinterpreting because they don't remember actually doing it. It starts to feel like gaslighting instead of a valid conversation about how actions affected others.

Adding onto not remembering: it prevents them from being able to take responsibility and make meaningful changes because, again, they don't remember what led them to the harmful behavior in the first place - or even what they were doing/saying if the critique is vague

You don't have to always react in the moment, but there is a certain point when it is too late and you've got to let the old moment go and wait and see if it happens again - then react and explain your boundary in the recent context.

[puc-puggy]

james fitzjames did expect to be remembered. he was an affluent historical figure in Britain during the height of imperialism. he shared tutors with princes. he actively and gleefully participated in imperialism. he actively and gleefully turned himself into walking propaganda for the british empire. his tragedy is that he failed and instead of being walking propaganda, be became a lurking insecurity.

fitzjames was particularly well loved for embodying imperialist ideals of the British National Body. there are posts going around about how he was affable and well liked and likely didn't expect to be remembered. this could not be further from the truth. he expected to be remembered and he was. as second in command of one of the two ships in question, he has been a figure of note since his disappearance. we have access to his letters because he was determined to be important enough to preserve them. every single thing about fitzjames telegraphs immense cultural and social privilege and part of the reason that he is remembered is because of the british inability to comprehend how and why he and his compatriots failed. rather than being a success and exemplar of the british national body as he expected, he became its greatest insecurity. at no point has he been forgotten. his commander is one of the most famous british explorers of all time. he just wasn't henry hudson because they failed and died instead of bringing information back for the crown.

fitzjames regularly threw himself at dangerous and notable expeditions to map new lands or open new trade routes because these stories were incredibly important to the british political imagination and discourse. he was additionally politically well placed and attended eton college. he was stationed in malta with the head of the british mediterranean fleet (a sign of high regard) and abandoned a position on a flagship to take part in the Euphrates expedition opening a steam route to mesopotamia. he was well liked and well known throughout the discovery service because he had the connections necessary for rank along with the ability to project a perfect National Body. he was not an everyman or an outsider or in any way unaware of his public persona.

fitzjames is remembered (and remembered well based on tumblr's reaction) because he was among those swashbuckling heroes whose embattled body provided "evidence of the resilience, ingenuity, and staunchness associated with British national character" that proved the british empire's supreme and godly right to conquer and civilize the entire planet. at the time, he needed to survive and bring back information to prove it. now we're granting it to him 179 years later after his empire has already (for the most part) fallen.

do not end up so deep in the blorbo sauce that you reinvent british imperial propaganda from the 19th century for real historical figures. james fitzjames' joy at participating and being notable to the british imperialist ego is a sign that he was a racist historical figure that participated guiltlessly in the atrocities associated with his station and rank in the british empire. we like tobias menzies and gayboys in tv shows, not actual imperialists, right? right?????

SOURCE: White Horizons: the arctic in the 19th century british imagination by jen hill

[annabelle--cane]

i wasn’t here when tma reached the height of its popularity (i only joined last year) so could you describe the Vibes (how bad the drama was, did it feel like there were too many people, etc.)

only if you want to :]

I've said this before, so this may be a familiar spiel to longer term followers, but 2020 tma fandom was honestly not the worst fandom I've ever been in, it was just by far the biggest thing I have ever been actively into at peak popularity and so the 1% of insane people that are found in every fan space were 1% of a much bigger total population. most people were fine and chill, but there were a vocal minority who Weren't.

major ingredients in the discourse pot:

from my observations, tma had a small but devoted listener base for its first few years, then it got a little bump in mid 2018, then a considerable bump in late 2019, then hit proper virality in early 2020, so there were a lot of people with hipster complexes about being Real Fans who were there first and weren't just part of the masses.

at this point I'm not even sure if this part was true, but the above was compounded by the perception that the earlier og listener base were mostly adults and the new wave of fans were mostly tweens and teens. whether the different waves actually fell along those age lines or not, a lot of people felt like the fandom was split into 80% Cringe Zoomers Who Are Here For Ships And Memes and 20% Millennials and Gen X'ers With Media Literacy Who Are Here For Horror. nice dichotomy, idiot, now what lies outside it, etc and such and such. our blessed fandom etiquette vs their barbarous dni lists.

which isn't to say that suddenly having a huge number of people, including young people, become interested in a single piece of media at a time of global stress where everyone had to be much more online and the content of the media itself was at its darkest and most socially relevant had no downsides. oh no. Oh No.

"my headcanon is not only objectively the best headcanon but it actually invalidates all of yours and if you hc something different then it's an act of bigotry against my Correct Headcanon." / "I have drawn up a list of Good Characters you have to like and aren't allowed to criticize and a list of Bad Characters you have to hate and can't acknowledge exist unless it's to make fun of and completely condemn them." / "I saw her username in the kudos of a jonelias fic" "girl what were YOU doing in the kudos of a jonelias fic" / "this latest episode handled a social issue unforgivably badly, I haven't experienced it myself but the vibes were off, everyone demand accountability and boycott the rest of the show" "hey that one was actually based on jonny's personal experiences" "ah fuck not again. well boys let's remember this for next time. this latest epis--"

honestly most of the discourse was down to like two or three friend groups. there was one group of people who you will probably remember if you were there at the time whom I have sometimes seen referred to as the Clown Gang. Clown Gang were ground zero for a good 90% of fan discourse ("hcing melanie as ace is ableist and lesbophobic" "fan content that focuses on jon's asexuality is biphobic. what's pansexuality I've never heard of it." "desolation tim aus are inherently ableist and racist"), but eventually they had a big falling out with Clown Prime and things calmed down. to be very clear I hold no ill will towards any of these people for four year old bad takes, hence why I'm not using any names, but god was it a time.

and this is only about the tumblr side of things. I was barely active of twitter so idk what it was like there but I was on tiktok for about a year during that time and the vibes were wildly different. iirc people there were less confrontational and there wasn't really a callout culture like on tumblr, but the extremes of the takes were FAR worse.

[boreal-sea]

I will never in a million years claim I’m personally immune to being radicalized. I’m certain I could be, given the right circumstances, because we are ALL vulnerable to it.

So let me tell you a time I got frustrated with pro-choicers, briefly became a pro-lifer, and ended up as a pro-choicer again.

Years ago I was on a pro-choice forum. This was circa 2010. I was so active I ended up a moderator. Pro-lifers were “welcome” in the sense that they were, quite frankly, used as punching bags. This was not a place of reasonable debate and discourse. And when I tried to apply the rules equally, I was literally banned from the forums. I’d been expressing empathy for the pro-lifers as, you know, real human beings, and that didn’t fly in this space.

So I went and checked out the pro-life forum. I experienced a period of welcoming from most of the members, and the debate there actually seemed a lot more nuanced than on the pro choice forum. Like, these folks were actually discussing their personal nuanced feelings about exceptions for rape and life of the mother! The pro choice forum had no nuance: abortion was always the mother’s choice (remember, this was 2010. Trans people weren’t even on the forum).

But eventually they turned on me, too. Turns out that they welcome you in, then slowly turn up the heat with the eventual goal of getting you to agree that in no cases is abortion acceptance. Unsurprising, back on the other side. But it’s not like the pro choice forum didn’t do the same thing in the opposite direction: bringing people in with the exceptions, and then convincing people it was acceptable in all cases.

As for what deradicalized me, it was mostly getting doxed by one of the pro-lifers. They really slowed me that as awful and as cruel as the pro-choicers in that particular community had been, stalking someone across the internet would never have crossed their minds as something ok to do. I think.

Now - for the record, I’m 200% pro-choice. I learned a lot from going to the pro-life side, though, and to be quite frank I don’t regret it. The biggest thing I realized was at the end of the day, literally nothing else matters except personal autonomy. That’s the root of it, for me. Do I have an unrestricted right to control my body, or not? And that’s the basis of my feelings behind everything from trans rights to religion.

BUT - and this is big too - I don’t like or support either of the communities I was in at the time. They were both radical, in opposite directions.

[unbidden-yidden-deactivated20240]

I'm gonna be honest here: one of the more exhausting parts of the online discourse is how much of a tightrope I am always on, that those of us who care about human rights for all human beings are always on, because any statement made in favor of the "other" side is ripe for tokenism.

I, as a Jew, care about the safety and human rights of Palestinians and Arab Israelis. You will never convince me that there is an ethical way to kill civilians, especially children. You will never convince me that police brutality against citizens marching for their civil rights is necessary. You just can't. And yet I have to be so careful when/where I say that and how I say that, because too often this simple acknowledgement that all people are created in the image of Hashem and should be treated accordingly is ripped out of context and placed between a deluge of other posts denying my people that very same acknowledgement. The number of times I have said these things, only to go into the reblogs and see my words surrounded on all sides with violent antisemitism? I've lost count.

And guess what? It's made me less effective as an advocate, it has actively silenced me from speaking up sometimes, because I refuse to be your "good Jew," your token, somebody whose words can be misconstrued to kasher your vile hatred of my people. And to be very clear: Jewish Israelis are my people just as much as fellow diaspora yidden are, and they deserve better from both goyim and diaspora Jews alike.

And I've seen this go the other way, too: I've seen Palestinian activists and journalists who are trying very hard to balance the values of respecting other people (including Israelis and/or Jews writ large) as fellow human beings with the pain that their people are currently suffering. And I've seen their words ripped out of context and used to excuse more violence against them and their people.

And then there are lots of other people - genuinely well-intentioned people who are trying to learn from me - who keep treating me like I'm some paragon of nuance. I'm trying, truly, but I'm Just Some Guy. You know what I do? It's extremely simple and I promise you can do it too, any of you, if you slow down long enough to think before putting anything out there: "Would I say this about my brother? My mom? My daughter? My people? Would I be happy if the person I loved most on this earth was living under these circumstances and being talked about in whatever way I'm about to speak? Would it feel victim-blaming? Would it feel disrespectful of their struggle or dishonest? Does it ignore their history or trauma? Is it actually helping?" These are the types of questions I try very hard to ask myself every time I post about the conflict, about both sides. I try to talk about this as if the people on both sides were my family. Because truthfully? They are. Am Yisrael is a family, before anything else. Palestinians are our closest cousins. This war is a bloodbath and a tragedy, and everyone is suffering. For those of us who are not living there, please remember this and have some respect.

[hyakinthou-naos]

HelPol Discourse & Ableism

A more nuanced addition to this post - which I made on a low spoons day (if you're just interested in the ableism part then scroll to the bottom).

The Dunning-Kruger Effect

“The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people with limited competence in a particular domain overestimate their abilities”

- Wikipedia

The Duning-Kruger Effect was first pointed out to me by another pagan practitioner - and in that context it was used to describe those who claim to know what is “right” or “wrong” for all practitioners within a given tradition.

This fellow practitioner (I can’t remember their name - this was at least 2 years ago) pointed out that those who are incredibly knowledgeable about a given tradition don’t tend to go around policing others practices.

Why?

Because being knowledgeable about any religious or spiritual tradition means recognizing how incredibly human made traditions are. They are loose - flexible - ever changing and ever evolving within both individual and community practice.

Now - that doesn’t mean “anything goes” within a tradition or religion, quite the opposite.

It instead means that the best way to create a cohesive tradition (or revive a cohesive tradition) is through working together as a community to discuss what is and isn’t valid praxis.

One individual (or a small group of individuals) speaking on behalf of an entire community is very rarely a good idea.

Bold “unpopular opinion” posts - telling others what is and isn’t valid praxis - is not only incredibly hubristic, but is also only going to lead to anger and infighting.

It is through conversation that we can get to the root of an issue and try to find consensus as a community.

As an example: I could make a post explaining my interpretation of, and feelings around, people worshipping Medusa. I could explain that I have negative feelings because this type of worship was not seen in antiquity. But then I could also make it clear that this is just my opinion - and that I’d be interested in hearing others points of view*

*some of those caught up in this controversy have done this, and have wrongly been demonized for it - while others have done the exact opposite, stating their opinion as law.

If someone makes a post similar to the example and you’re still going to be antagonistic or cruel - then just block that person. You’re going to save both them and yourself a lot of needless stress.

If someone makes a post that is actively inflammatory - you can do one of two things:

1. If you have the energy and bandwidth, you can engage with them in a discussion or civil debate.

2. If you don’t have the energy or bandwidth, or if OP is unwillingly to engage you in such talks, then just block them. Again - it will save you a lot of needless stress.

Lastly - we as Hellenic Polytheists need to be better about our ableism.

If there is something in our faith that is ableist (example: you must always stand with arms outstretched during ritual) then it shouldn’t be part of our faith.

Just because some people do not have any limitations on their physical mobility or mental energy - does not mean that the able-bodied way of doing things gets to be the default or “correct” way of practicing our faith.

I want to make a longer post on the ableism that is rampant in both the HelPol and wider Pagan communities - but for now I think that will suffice.

Askbox is open, as are DMs - The Temple is always open to community building, community discussion, and (civil) community debate.

Eirene - peace and farewell,

- Temple Hyacinthus

[pro-sipper]

Had such a fun conversation with my therapist today. Honestly I'd been wanting to bring up the whole pro/anti debacle with her just to see what she'd say and how it would stack up against what proshippers and antishippers have to say about therapy online. No points for correctly guessing which side she agreed with

I talked about my job for about 3/5ths of the time there, then segued into The Discourse by telling her about how I'd been writing daily during the first two weeks of my new job, but hadn't been as active lately

And I even asked her if she had any other chronically online clients she talked to and she reassured me that she had plenty, and even one who had kind of explained this whole debate to her before (from a proshipper stance, and how she lost a friend over it)

I explained my whole issue with her about how fandom is so deep into purity culture these days. And how reckless and raunchy it was in the 00s and how I don't want to go back to that, but there's got to be some middle ground somewhere.

I told her about some of the stuff I've written and all the weird or nasty comments I've gotten on it and how that can be discouraging. And I told her that most of my works are smut, and of those smut works, all of them have at least a little sprinkling of trauma in them. And she said that can be a good way to look at things. And used a real life example of how something could be awful but there could be good things about it too. Specifically saying that nothing is just black and white, everything has shades of grey. And that digging the little good out of the big bad is a positive thing, actually

And I told her about being a young teen and reading a fic with incest in it and having the sense not to immediately jump to "I want to recreate this in real life" and she was like "Yes, exactly. It's like this one book I read, umm..." and I was like "Flowers In The Attic?" just as a guess and she was like "Yes!" and said just because you read about something doesn't mean you want it to be your reality

And I did my best to explain the whole concept of how some people seem to think that everyone engages with fiction by putting themselves in the shoes of the main character, so if the main character is doing awful things then you must want to do awful things too. Which of course she said was in no way true

And she told me that she was such a big fan of horror movies and loved to watch those as a way to relax and unwind bc it gets her mind off her work, but that doesn't mean she wants to be a killer lol. And I had to be like "Oh no you don't understand. They think killing and torture and cannibalism is totally fine, it's just when you bring sex into the equation that people start freaking out" and she was confused at that lol

And of course she thought it was ridiculous that people can get called a pedo or a groomer or whatever other awful things over fictional stories.

So yeah it was a fun and reassuring conversation. I know I'm leaving some stuff out but I can't remember any more specifics of what was said. Plus I was talking a mile a minute bc I wanted to say everything on my mind before time was up asfdsfs it was a monumental task.

OH and I even brought up how people will literally say "well my therapist said..." just for some other people to accuse them of lying or saying their therapist is corrupt or some other bullshit which she was understandably aghast at. Because she is a licensed therapist who went to Therapy School and knows better, and is not a magical villain promoting propaganda fed to her by Big Proship to corrupt her clients. You know how it is <3

[br1ghtestlight]

if there's one positive thing i can say about the modern osc its that Even a few years earlier. people were SO MUCH weirder about shipping rarepairs (especially between canon m/f characters) and being fans of certain characters or dynamics (people used to HATE tacomic. they would write callout posts if you were even a fan of trophy or cobs & trophan was commonly considered abusive and proship by the entire fandom despite them having uhhh. 2 minor interactions maybe?? in canon)

i remember there being SUCH intense fireafy discourse and i dont even remember why. so in comparison the modern osc is incredibly chill & supportive as long as it isn't like actively romanticizing abuse or incest. ive even seen trife shippers out and about these days. maybe its just cuz the older osc members matured and the younger ones just follow their lead idk?? but i appreciate it cuz im more interested in rarepairs or toxic dynamics between characters than the Mainstream Fandom Ships. and even the asshole or villain characters deserve love </3

[ahappydnp]

Hey so I hope this is okay to ask as i’m a bit confused and crazy atm. In the WIQYT screenshots going around again about the doc, the last one talks about Dan having self image issues. I was curious if you could possibly help spread some light on the subject maybe? I remember always seeing him posted on the proana blogs back in the day frequently, and even in Dan and Depression he says his lexapro made him “gain loads of weight” but it never seemed like anything visually changed. I know you’re not a mind reader and trying to understand another persons self image is impossible, I guess I just maybe don’t understand where this comes from. I know he used to rag on himself in videos by putting pillows down his shirt to signify that he was chubby as a kid even tho he never was from the pictures available. I’m aware this is very parasocial but I’ve been going through a lot self image wise and he never got to make his documentary where he talks about it and idk. To me, Daniel is lowkey a philosopher and i’m so desperate to hear what he has to say on the subject. Can you think of any times he’s talked about this kind of stuff? (Sorry for this being such a downer anon i just kinda feel like i need to hear about it rn and i don’t know where to look)

I hope your weekend is amazing and filled with joy and laughter!

like you said, no one knows what goes on inside someones mind especially things like insecurities. but i do think it's two seperate issues that dan has talked about (under the cut for sensitive topics)

i think it's important to remember how society treated weight in the early 00s, obviously it was muuuuch worse for women but boys would also get ridiculed for their weight regardless of their size. i assume that dan did get picked on for being bigger (more than likely he was probably just taller than his classmates but kids just really like generalizing words like "fat" and that sticks in your brain). it was such a shitty time for body acceptance as a whole and he was bullied so much i'm sure people did throw in weight comments just to add to the blow.

and like everything else that's going to stick and then when you're a little older you just repeat this truth that other people told you that "i was a fat kid and fat=bad just like gay=bad so i'm going to agree with them" of course that was suuuuuuper toxic and unhealthy and dan definitely did even more damage peddling casual fatphobia and making insensitive jokes online. but he was pretty openly struggling with his body image from the get go (all the ED comments he made in 2009) and as we know, there's generally another root cause. dan's talked about his self hatred when he was younger (particularly stemming from the bullying and his internalized homophobia) at length and it makes sense that manifested into body dysmorphia the second part is in that screenshot from WIQY he was specifically talking about gay men's beauty standards which is a whole different issue altogether. he's talked a lot about his baby face and how he's felt insecure about his lack of "masculine" features and build. he's talked about how people don't take him seriously because he doesn't look like "a man". there's also the added layer of him being the poster child for ~pretty boy twink~ who's now getting older and aging out of those very rigid beauty standards solely because he's no longer 21. but gay men can be incredibly toxic when it comes to labels and what's attractive (i mean think about the fact that grindr literally has a body type filter so you can exclude whole subsets of people). so he's not saying that he's not attractive or not the general beauty standard, it's that he came out and fell face first into gay standards discourse because he was actively engaging and consuming queer community in a new light

allll of this to say i COMPLETELY get how it can instinctively rub people the wrong way when dan howell, who was famously coined "the hot one" for years and has had people drooling over him his entire adult life, says he's insecure. it can feel like a slap in the face if you don't consider his own struggles but i do think he's self aware and healed enough to know that he's very much within societal beauty standards (tall, straight sized, white, eurocentric features) and has actually benefited greatly in his career because of his looks. and he's unpacked a lot of his fatphobia and has made a point to be vocally body positive even going back to like 2016/2017

[qweerhet]

we really, desperately need language to discuss the specific material experiences, and ensuing marginalization, that come from your body visibly differentiating from the sex binary, and are not described by intersex language.

currently, discussions of exorsexism like to point out that "nonbinary" is not a label that meaningfully conveys any information about material experiences, that there is no core "nonbinary transition." this is a line of reasoning that i will accept at its bare bones; it's frequently deployed in the most bad faith contexts i have ever had the misfortune to see, but on its face, the bare facts are true. there are, in fact, plenty of nonbinary people whose medical experiences are indistinguishable from binary trans people's, and whose medical experiences are indistinguishable from cis perisex people's. this is true at higher rates than it is for any other trans demographic, given what a broad coalition "nonbinary" covers. i accept the conclusion that "one's physical traits are not connected to being nonbinary whatsoever, any large-scale patterns are mild correlation at best."

regardless of that, however, there is a specific marginalization that does affect nonbinary trans people at higher rates than cis perisex people or binary trans people when it does occur, and that is the marginalization of bodies that are visibly in violation of the sex binary. this marginalization overlaps quite a lot with intersexism--in fact, an unspoken driving factor in binary transitions is frequently not only to "pass as cis," but specifically to "pass as perisex." however, being intersex is a particular life experience & should not be conflated with otherwise violating the sex binary--the marginalization described here is in solidarity with intersex experiences and overlaps heavily with how intersexism manifests materially, but is not described by that language itself.

to define "violating the sex binary": your body does not align with perisex, cisgender, binary constructs of male and female bodies. someone with breasts and a beard falls under this. someone with testes and a uterus falls under this. someone with breasts, a dropped voice, and testosterone-dominant fat and body hair distribution falls under this. someone with a flat chest, a dropped voice, and estrogen-dominant fat and body hair distribution falls under this. there are many thousands of ways to violate the sex binary.

additionally, visibly violating the sex binary as a "transitional" stage in one's binary transition does involve undergoing this marginalization. this marginalization affects cisgender people whose bodies do not align with the sex binary. it also affects people who actively attempt to hide their sex variations, to varying degrees. binary trans people also experience this marginalization, and are welcome to discuss it and feel out language for it, with the understanding that the experience of someone moving intentionally away from experiencing it is fundamentally not the same as the experience of someone who will always experience it and does not have the options to "hide" or "pass," or the experience of someone who actively wants that body. care should be taken to remember that a large number of people who experience this marginalization are actively pursuing the bodies that are subject to it, not as transitional states, but as fully realized bodies in and of themselves.

this is not a post where i am coining language--that is really not my area of expertise. this is a post where i'm hoping to open up discussion, because the transfeminist sphere on this website has a pretty broad effect on trans language and discourse overall, and the things spoken about and coined here often ripple out into the wider world.

[jackoshadows]

"... best you have a new face as well.” He cupped her chin, turned her head this way and that, nodded. “A pretty one this time, I think. As pretty as your own." - Arya, ADwD

A recap and a lesson for fandom newbies -

We have this CANON ACCURATE fanart of Arya Stark from the incredibly talented Tonyloom with the long face, brown hair and grey eyes dressed for feast time at Winterfell as the daughter of the Warden of the North.

A Sansa fan gets triggered by this Arya fanart because it's different from ones that Sansa stans usually like for their 'Stark sisters' fanart - where Arya is drawn dark skinned to highlight Sansa's fair complexion because Sansa is beautiful and Arya is ugly, where Arya is missing teeth, always a sword in hand, messy hair being braided by Sansa to conform to what Sansa likes etc. - and goes on an insane rant about how Arya fans don't want Arya to be ugly because of equating goodness to beauty....

So Arya fans respond to this attack on the fan artist and point to the book text where several characters call Arya pretty and beautiful and ask why they should consider the character ugly when she is not in the text of the books.

A BNF then jumps into the discourse and reblogs the 'Arya is ugly and Arya fans have internalized misogyny' post and pretends that Arya fans are the ones starting this whole discourse on Arya's looks.

BNF tags it as 'This is weird discourse, who cares if Arya is pretty'. Who cares if Arya is pretty? The weird, racist Sansa stan that you reblogged the post from, who got triggered by some Arya fan art and had to go on an entire rant, that's who. Who cares? Well you cared enough to reblog an 'Arya is ugly' post and point fingers at Arya fans, that's who.

And now the BNFs reblog spreads like wildfire amongst the casual fans and we have many who actually think that canon Arya is ugly and Arya fans just have internalized misogyny. This, children, is how the many wrong but popular fanon gets created.

Remember, this BNF had nothing to say about racist Arya fanart. Nothing to say about sexist posts where Arya is masculinized and her femininty stripped from her. Nothing to say about the many posts from Sansa stans/Jonsa shippers about how Jon is repulsed by Arya's ugliness and loves Sansa because she is so beautiful.

But they had to step in and make sure everyone knew that Arya is ugly and it's Arya fans who are the problem.

This is actually nothing new. The reason there is so much wrong misinformation about Arya and Daenerys, and the way this fandom has opinions about these two female characters, is because it's been crafted over decades of fandom BNF's spreading posts and meta like this through BNF blogs like Asoiafuniversity. Explained so well in this post here:

Villainizing Arya fans as 'bad fans' has long been a thing in fandom. Asoiafuniversity, which was the goto place for all things asoiaf in those days, had actual posts equating Arya fans to Walter White fans from Breaking bad who hated on his wife Skylar.

Keep in mind, this is an actual quote from a post on the most popular asoiaf blog when the fandom was very active:

The interesting thing about Arya is that unlike most of the male Bad Fan icons, she doesn’t have a wife to embody her Bad Fans’ frustrations and serve as an outlet for their ire – no Betty Draper, no Skyler White, no Carmela Soprano. Instead, she has a sister, Sansa, who winds up serving the same function. Much of Bad Fandom is a gendered phenomenon, pulling for he-man figures against shrewish wives who just don’t understand them. It’s fascinating to see how the phenomenon can alter itself to accommodate a female-female pairing while still targeting characteristics we typically gender female. The Bad Fan is nothing if not durable.

So much toxic sexism masquerading as feminism, where they equate Arya fans to the chuds who hate female characters and whose unfair target is Sansa because she is 'female'. And Arya is a 'he-man' figure....The mind boggles.

But this was the typical vile sexist garbage Bnfs were spewing about both Arya and Daenerys in the days when fandom was most active and this is where a majority of the sexist opinions about Arya and Dany comes from.

This is why these canonically wrong aspects of these characters are so widespread and entrenched in fandom thought that it doesn't matter if we use actual book quotes to show that it's the exact opposite.

[yrrtyrrtwhenihrrthrrt]

Sooo I been thinking a lot about the fandom reception of Caitvi, and Caitlyn Kiramman herself, and how that reception is negative compared to other, equally or more morally dubious characters and toxic ships. More specifically I've been thinking about my perception of Caitvi and Caitlyn, because I wanted to do some introspection on why I dislike her and the ship compared to others, to evaluate if it really is internalized misogyny or holding female characters to an unfairly high standard or if there was an objective reason that made people react more negatively to this ship/character than others. I came to some conclusions, that if you've been curious about this discourse, you may find interesting, but it's kind of a long read.

While I think in situations like this there is always a factor of implicit misogyny, I've come to the conclusion that, at least for me, there are bigger reasons to why I dislike the ship (and Caitlyn) that may speak to other fans as well.

On the outset, looking at it objectively, Caitvi should be one of the least toxic ships in the fandom. They're pretty much the only one that at no point actively tried to kill each other (Ekko was going to kill Jinx on the bridge, even if he did stop himself, Jinx tried to blow him up along with herself like four times and also fired a machine gun at him. Vander and Silco,, well we all know what happened. Jayce blasted a hole in Viktor's chest. Viktor didn't try to kill Sky but he did. Maddie uhhh fucking tried to shoot Cait in the neck) I think Meljay is the only other mainstream ship from this show that didn't try to fucking murder each other at any point. So why is Caitvi disliked, or at least considered unilaterally less wholesome than Timebomb (who takes the cake for "murder attempts per ship" while also managing to be considered the least problematic in the fandom lmao)?

I came to the conclusion that it ultimately boils down to the ending. I loved Caitvi in season one, I really did, and I kept loving them throughout the beginning of season 2. Caitlyn made mistakes, and she was a cop, but it's a show and I can look past that, Vi made mistakes too. They started to lose me, not when Cait asked Vi to become a cop, but in the later scene where we learn from Maddie that Caitlyn had had Vi enlisted as an enforcer despite her outright rejection of the proposal AND after apologizing for said proposal. This is a huge violation, but Vi's lesbian ass was just touched that Caitlyn complimented her while doing it, so it never gets brought up and she agrees to go along with it? Don't love that. It's literally never brought up. Maybe I got the timeline bungled since it happens off screen but,, yeah.

We then see Caitlyn terrorize the undercity with fucking toxic fumes, as many people bring up. I actually don't think it's OOC for Vi to have gone along with this, she's shown multiple times that she is in support of any level of brutality levied against the people of the undercity as long as they're the ones she doesn't like. No, what got me was when she was aggressively threatening Huck with borderline torture in Stillwater, the thing VI HERSELF EXPERIENCED, and she pulls her aside not to reprimand her, but to make out with her and ask her not to change.

HUH?

Remember in S1 when Vi got incredibly mad at Jayce for "bandying the threat around" when he threatened to arrest her, and got justifiably furious at the unfairness of Topsiders who have no idea what Stillwater is like to wantonly throw people in there to rot? Where was that energy, girl?

Then of course is the part where Caitlyn strikes Vi in an already injured spot to punish her for not letting Caitlyn shoot at a child, which, characters in this show are always being violent to each other, every other ship is. If we can get over Ekko repeatedly pummeling Jinx in her FACE we can get over this, but here's the kicker-

She reduces Vi to her lower class status before hurting her. "I keep telling myself that you're different, but you're not."

In that moment, all of Caitlyn's "ally" sentiments to Zaun fly out the window. In that moment, Vi ceases to be "one of the good ones" to her and she resolves in her abject bigotry towards Zaunites. Vi is no longer worth the dirt at the bottom of her shoe because she's just a Zaunite, like her sister. That's the kicker. The Caitlyn from season 1 who genuinely wanted to do good is gone. She doesn't care about doing good anymore, she only cares about punishing Zaun for existing.

And I think this is why people dislike her, because with most other characters, they consistently wanted to do good and thought they were doing the right thing even if they were absolutely wrong.

Viktor thought that turning humanity into flawless, mindless robots would eliminate suffering.

Jayce constantly fucked up but every fucked up thing he does is because he thinks it will help people.

Ambessa wanted to protect her family and was willing to make any sacrifice to do so.

Singed wanted to save his daughter and was willing to make any sacrifice to do so.

Mel wanted to keep Piltover and Jayce safe.

Sevika wanted the Undercity to be independent and free

Silco is the most similar to Caitlyn in this regard, because his character was mostly motivated by wanting revenge against Piltover, but at least somewhere in his little rat brain, he felt like he was doing it for Zaun and so the people of Zaun could be respected, free, and prosperous.

Caitlyn just wanted revenge.

And then we get to the ending. In the last couple episodes every single character is punished by the narrative for their crimes. With only two exceptions.

Singed and Caitlyn.

Jayce, Viktor, Jinx, and Ambessa all fucking die (I'm not discussing theories of the first three being alive because this post is only going into what the show actually shows us so for the sake of this argument, they dead)

Mel loses the man she loves, has to kill her own mother, and leaves the city she loves to return alone to Noxus.

Ekko catches a glimpse of everything he ever wanted, gives it up to save his own timeline, and the girl he loves still fucking dies and he is left completely alone.

Vi loses her sister and what's left of her dad, and it's her fault Jinx dies, and she has to live with that, and the only support system she has left is her partner who called her a slur then hit her

Cait uhhhh *checks notes* loses her eye. That's. That's all that happens to her. I mean her mom died but that was before she went off the rails, not after, and I think the only character who ended the series with an alive mom was Jayce so it's not like that makes her unique.

Now I can actually see how making her disabled in this way would be an interesting narrative tool, similar to the end of the Comic Nimona, where the Cop love interest becomes disabled when he finally tries to fight for something good, and in doing so his disability frees him from the role of being a cop, without which he can live peacefully and happily. If they'd taken this approach with Cait it would have been very interesting, because she's a sharpshooter. If her newfound lack of depth perception compromised her ability to do her job, and she was no longer an enforcer, that would be an interesting ending.

But they do nothing with that. She's still a cop but she has a cool eyepatch now. Like what a fucking waste.

Now I do know that she supposedly learns from her mistakes. She clearly knows what she did was wrong, she lets Jinx go, despite Jinx being her white whale the entire fucking season, which is a huge sacrifice to make and she does it because she loves Vi. That's sweet, it is, and she gives Sevika her seat on the council I guess to show that she reformed her hatred of Zaunites. It's good that she did those things.

But the fact that she is never held accountable for the worst of the things she does, not by the narrative, not by Vi, not by any other character, and the story ends with her STILL being a cop indicating that she actually learned fuckall, and most importantly: The series ends with her, a cop, who has been violent and discriminatory with Vi before, being Vi's only remaining support system.

Her odds of becoming a victim of the 40% statistic don't look great.

So I hope this explains my and other people's issues with Caitlyn and Caitvi. Ultimately I don't hate the ship I just don't like it, and I'm not some anti who takes issue with other people shipping two Consenting Problematic Adults from "Problematic Adults: the Cartoon, inspired by Problematic Everything: The Video Game." I guess I just wanted to put out an explanation for why I and others don't like them in the hopes of reaching some understanding in the fandom. I'm glad to have my canon problematic lesbians at the end of the day.

[sdv-confessions]

Seeing alot of discourse so, I'm gonna say something about all the characters i can remember myself, to try n lighten the mood!

Sam would use a LOT of emojis when texting. i mean Look at him. he also gets very insecure about how he comes across after sending texts.

sebastians bong no longer exists because he kept smoking up his room and it got confiscated because just walking in could render someone high.

I think Abigail could probably bake decently! no clue if its been said otherwise or not, i just think she would be able to. she also would be an amazing reptile/bug parent, please give our homegirl a katydid to care for.

Robin, she's a decent cook but theres some things she absolutely can't make. she's sometimes tasteblind and thats fine. Also no doubt, but she smells like burnt wood constantly.

Demetrius can bake, really well for some reason, but he also sucks at certain baking activities. he's also judges food very bluntly, if he dislikes it, you'll know, BUT if he realized he upset you, he'll try and give you tips on how to improve it.

Maru, she also likes motorcycles like Sebastian does, but she'd rather put one together than buy one. it's just more interesting in the long run.

Jodi, I don't know much about her. but I can definitely see her giving tips and stuff when she can to other parents in town.

Kent, I really think he'd like oatmeal raisin cookies? I also don't know much about him, i love oatmeal raisin cookies myself. i think he'd like cross stitching, even if he isn't good at it.

Pam, I think she and Willy hang out on occasion to fish together, chat about old times because it makes her happy, i also don't think she gets on well with alot of the other townsfolk in recent times since she seems to be quite self isolated like her own daughter. so the times she does talk with others can lighten her day, She also has a habit of being abit rude to those she cares for in a joking manner.

Willy! That man and Clint are friends, Good friends! though I don't think Willy is on bad terms with Anyone. besides being annoyed with lewis sometimes, but he still cares for him. something tells me he likes knitting scarfs and mittens. but thats when he isn't able to fish. He can't knit a sweater and he swears he gets worse every time he tries.

Clint, i think Clint is also good at baking, though he surprisingly has a habit of burning his hands, keeps thinking he can grab the pans he's using without consequences. i think his favorite to make would be Blueberry or Carrot muffins :]]

Emily! she tries her best constantly, and is actually very nervous of how to make a good first impression, but she also acts on impulse which can be a rocky mix. i think she really likes roller skating, Haley probably does to, so its probably one of tbe activities she cherishes because its time she can spend with her sister.

Haley, It think she'd actually really be able to get into the punk/rock scene if you take the time to introduce her to it. she wouldn't change up her style no, but she'd be able to enjoy something outside of her usual comfort zone.

Alex. i think he couldn't roller skate for the life of himself. and would take alot of time to accept help in learning how to. but he doesn't want to admit it because he has an easy time ice skating and thinks he should be able to roller skate just fine.

George, He likes to go rock picking, and when i say that I'm not just saying that because of how many rocks he gived you, i think he likes to search for agates, has afew glass containers full of his favorite finds, And wouldn't admit it, but he'd be really happy when people join him in the little hobby kf searching

Evelyn, i think she actually really likes fishing, and used to fish at some point, but can't really do it nowadays, but i think she'd like to hang out near the river and talk to Willy when he's there.

Marnie, she's a heavy metal girl, she secretly knows so many metal bands it would surprise you. she'd be elated in a surprized reaction from whoever she's telling. She knows alot of niche bands aswell.

Shane, he once got an eyebrow piercing, but it rejected so badly he couldn't build the courage to get any other form of piercing for ages, He does now have ear piercings though.

Pierre, he has really bad luck, and by that i mean he's extremely clumsy, He walks into so many things, accidentally shuts cupboards and doors on his fingers or foot. curses like a sailor afterwards, likes to jokingly blame Joja for bizarre happenings as abit of an inside joke. Also he's the one usually cooking.

Caroline, THAT WOMAN, i fully believe she knows kick boxing, i just, get that vibe from her. She totally would, She also does most of the hard work around the house as her husband sits around looking pretty. Strong lady, can't convince me otherwise.

WIZARD, He can't cook, not at all, he keeps saying he'll learn, but its just not working for him, It should be just as easy as potions right? No, but he is really good at making tea. he has several blends he favors, and he wishes to share them with someone again someday.

Morris? He actually does feel abit bad for the inhabitants of pelican town, be he can't pinpoint why, so he blames it on the idea that he's just sorry they won't accept Joja. as mean as he is, i do think he has a heart somewhere beneath the Joja logo in his chest cavity 😔 I think he's also the son of the CEO. But I also think he worked Really really hard to get to his position. Morris also has a habit of not actually getting sleep. like, to the point he'll just crash in the work place and get woken by an employee clocking in, Usually Shane. Because Yoba knows Shane wouldn't hesitate to dig in to the fact Morris was sleeping on the Job. Morris used to have slight buck teeth but got them shaven down, (This is lowkey because of an inside joke that takes a LOAD of different characters from different fandoms and chucks them into the same family, because they have similar characteristics.)

FIZZZZ, theres not much on him, But i think he likes to play up on the stuff he does, such as practically scarying the player, He's playing it up, Morris is scared of him. but also has mad respect for him. I know that just because they're some of the only Joja workers that aren't exactly important, that i shouldn't immediately decide they know eachother, BUUUUT, I think they're actually friends, like, MORRIS crashed on Fizz's couch often, his own house was too far back in zuzu city for him to get there on time and still have enough time to sleep, and that they'd also be friends with Dobson if he was part of the game. Though Dobson wouldn't share the sentiment .

Dobson. Dobson should be real, Not just left in code. Thats not a headcanon, just sadness. But I think that if he was in the game, he'd be even harder to convince of not being a member of the Joja workforce than Morris or Fizz would be, he'd be Devoted to it. absolutely devoted. Theres a cardboard cutout of a heart in his chest, and when you turn it around Joja. Co is written across the back in blaring blue ink.

The Cashier girl! She actually is good friends with Sam, Sam was helping her come out of her shell while she worked there, but, when Joja mart is ran outta town, she had to leave aswell since she just oustide of town, (someone help her she had to drive quite the ways to work.) She HATES Joja but she needed the income. She doesn't hate anyone who works under joja, but aren't high ranking ranking, she pities them knowing they aren't actually evil, just, stuck in a hard work environment. I agree that her name is Carrie, it just suits her.

Gunther, That man is literally so gay, You can't tell me otherwise, that man is a fruit. Also, he is related to the guy who sells mermaid pendants, something tell me they are.

Elliot, he's learned how to fish from Willy. he was more than thankful to be taught, i think he's been learning alot from afew of the residents, Like Evelyn, and Caroline, i think they taught him how to Garden, Leah told him alot about nature. Abigail Sebastian, and Marlon told him how to get out of a pickle if he's dealing with monsters if he ever gets stuck in the mines.

Linus, I think everything i can say for him is expected, but i think he used to take great joy in crocheting.

Leah? I'm shocked to say i know nothing about her and i can't make an accurate judgement, same goes for Harvey.

Sorry if I left anyone out, and I'm sorry its easy to tell which characters i am hyperfxating on. peace out. - 🔹️

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