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guardianspirits13 · 4 years

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Okay so with everything going on right now and all the exciting new information, there is one thing I see being overlooked a lot, and that is something I want to talk about: Natsuo Todoroki.

In almost every scene he appears in during the manga, he mentions Touya, and I really want to try to imagine the sort of effect this new information will have on him.

Natsuo and Touya have a clearly established relationship as kids, and while Fuyumi says they played together a lot, in one translation of a the scene in 253 Natsuo says that Touya used to tell him everything, implying that they also talked openly about what Endeavor was doing to their family and how they felt about it.

Natsuo was entirely ignored by Endeavor as a kid to the point where his existence was hardly acknowledged, and with information from the new light novel we know that Rei hardly took care of him either after Shouto was born. Natsuo would have been about four, not nearly old enough to do things on his own and was likely raised mostly by his older siblings.

Now imagine what it was like for Natsuo when Touya died. He would have been 10 at the most, and however Touya died (and I say died because it was considered a hard fact to the Todoroki family for almost a decade) and wether or not he witnessed it does not change the fact that it has been one of the most traumatic, defining events of his life so far. Not only was he still very much a child, Touya was likely his best friend and the single person he could rely on. Touya and Natsuo helped each other through the trauma they were both experiencing, so I can’t even imagine how devastating it would have been for Natsuo to lose his sole support system so suddenly without any grief counseling in sight.

If you think about it even now, at the core Dabi and Natsuo share strikingly similar viewpoints on hero society as a whole, and they both despise Endeavor for the same reasons. They also both seem to be very emotionally driven and have internalized their feelings that show only under stressful circumstances.

I am going to attribute the different outcomes in who they are now to Natsuo still having a stable home and Fuyumi to help him cope, and whatever happened to Touya he was almost definitely homeless and alone so it was easy for him to fall in with a group of loveable societal rejects (although I very much want to know exactly what he did for the years between ‘dying’ and joining the league).

So now finally, I will try my best to predict how Natsuo might react to the information that his brother is alive, especially assuming he finds out through the same video that Rei does. Horikoshi went out of his way to establish a relationship between the two, so either way it will definitely be heartbreaking.

First off is knowing that Touya is alive. Even with that information alone and nothing about Dabi himself, it would not explicitly be joyful. A huge part of who Natsuo has become is because of how his past-e.g. losing Touya- has shaped him. A significant example being that in the new light novel we learn that he wanted to be in the medical field to help people in situations like his mother ‘whose hearts have been hurt’. I think before any sort of positive emotion this information will definitely rattle him to the core, as it has Shouto and Endeavor. This is not just about Touya being alive, but it’s about how much of Natsuo’s life has been shaped by his death. I’d imagine under normal circumstances some form of joy or excitement would set in after the initial shock, but judging by the content of the video I can’t imagine that.

And finally we get to Touya’s status as a criminal, terrorist, and his admission to murdering over 30 people. I’m going to re-iterate what I said before, that Natsuo obviously looked up to his brother, and the image of teenaged Touya that he has been imagining and hearing in his head for the past decade is so drastically different from who he is now. **Now we have no reference point for how Touya was as a kid, wether or not he exhibited early antisocial tendencies or wether he was as kind and protective as the fandom seems to think of him. My point still stands that Natsuo looked up to him as a kid and immortalized him in his memory, so the cognitive dissonance between the Touya he knew and the Touya that we see now will also be destructive.

**Another side note, I wrote this before I saw the translation that Touya considered kiling Shouto while they were kids, which is certainly chilling and adds a whole nother level to this mess, so take that as you will

I honestly have no idea how he will react based on this last point.

One one hand, Natsuo is known for his brutal honesty in expressing how he feels, and this could be no different. There is definitely the possibility that he could blame Touya for abandoning them and betraying them, along with the horror of knowing how many people he murdered.

There is also a much different response to anticipate, mainly because Natsuo is also a very sympathetic person with a particular soft spot for his older brother, and may choose to view him as more as a victim.

Horikoshi is an incredible writer and is very capable of portraying subtle and complex emotions in his characters, and he is also well known for uncanny parallels and coming full circle in his writing, so I have theorized for a while now that the sibling’s responses to Touya’s return might be opposite to their willingness to forgive Endeavor, based mostly on their relationships with both of them. I think it would be poetic if Natsuo (who again is very emotionally driven) would have an initial response of just wanting to reunite with his brother and willing to overlook his transgressions in the moment, Shouto would still walk a middle line of being very conflicted and unsure, and if Fuyumi would blame him the most, for abandoning her and inadvertently leaving her to sacrifice most of her childhood and getting a higher education to look after the house and her younger brothers, as that had been a shared responsibility previously.

If you made it this far in the post, thank you so much for reading! Most of this is just speculation, but it’s been on my mind for a while so with the final reveal out of the way I have long been prepared to rant about the significance of Touya in Natsuo’s life and how his return would affect him. I’d love if you’s be willing to share your thoughts on all this before the next chapter.

Peace!

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nikosheba · 3 years

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The Mystery of the Vanishing Elf

First of all, this is not my meta; I’m posting this on behalf of Azh, who wrote it and wanted it on tumblr. (They did say I could take credit for bothering them to write it, and for helping kick around ideas, so I will :D)

Link to the meta on AO3

[all page numbers from the 2007 HarperCollins edition of The Children of Húrin, ISBN 978 0 00 724622 9]

Thanks to starlightwalking for beta-ing!

So I just finished reading the Children of Húrin—which, let’s be honest, I was mostly reading to get the expanded version of the Túrin and Beleg content. So at first when I started reading the second half — after Beleg’s death — I figured the reason I was less drawn to the text was because, well, Beleg was dead and therefore was less present in the narrative. After I’d finished the book and put it down, though, I realized it was a little more than that. Beleg wasn’t just less present. He was completely absent. This is no exaggeration: between the last mention of Beleg’s name in Chapter IX (“The Death of Beleg”) and Túrin’s death, when Gurthang asks to forget the “blood of Beleg my master” there is a single mention of his name, and it’s only a passing description of Gurthang itself as “the Black Sword of Beleg” (pg. 237).

Túrin never says his name again.

What’s going on here? This is, quite frankly, bizarre. The entire first half of the narrative pivots around the relationship between Túrin and Beleg. Beleg is the one who finds Túrin when he’s just a child his mother is sending to Thingol in Doriath. Beleg is his friend when’s growing up on Doriath — one of two really mentioned, the other being Nellas — and when Túrin is grown and goes off to be with the marchwardens, “Beleg and Túrin were companions in every peril” (pg 86). When Thingol and Mablung and everyone else are ready to assume the worst of Túrin, it’s Beleg who shows up with Nellas to tell them what really happened, and it’s notable that this means Beleg didn’t see what happened; he just implicitly trusted Túrin and was the only one to do so. They care about each other a lot. There is a brief portion of time while Túrin is with the outlaws that they aren’t together (that’s a whole nother post in itself) but Beleg returns to Túrin on Amon Rudh, “in this way, Beleg came back to Túrin, yielding to his love against his wisdom. Túrin was glad indeed, for he had often regretted his stubbornness; and now the desire of his heart was granted…it seemed to [the outlaws] there had been a tryst between Beleg and their caption.” (pg 139). These boys are in love. It’s textual. There’s only one other character Túrin is described as loving in a similar way, and it’s Níniel (Niënor), whom he marries.

In fact, it’s staggering that Níniel is the only other one (pg 218 “Turambar restrained himself no longer, but asked her in marriage”), because there is a very big elephant in the room, and it’s the person whom Níniel is occasionally compared to, Finduilas. Finduilas is mentioned three times in the text after her death, including twice by Túrin himself in direct quotations:

- “Then Turambar who led the men started back and covered his eyes, and trembled; for it seemed that he saw the wraith of a slain maiden that lay on the grave of Finduilas.” (pg. 214, when Túrin first finds Níniel)

- "But even as he spoke, he wondered, and mused in his mind: 'Or can it be that one so evil and fell shuns the Crossings, even as the Orcs? Haudh-en-Elleth! Does Finduilas lie still between me and my doom?’” (pg. 229, when Túrin is preparing to fight Glaurung for the last time),

- “Therefore he arose and went to the Crossings of Teiglin, and as he passed by Haudh-en-Elleth he cried: 'Bitterly have I paid, O Finduilas! that ever I gave heed to the Dragon. Send me now counsel!’” (pg. 253, after he’s killed Brandir and is desperately trying to deny that Níniel was Niënor, his sister)

This is huge. And it’s huge, because Túrin is not in love with Finduilas. This, again, is explicit, and textual, "In truth Finduilas was torn in mind. For she honoured Gwindor and pitied him, and wished not to add one tear to his suffering; but against her will her love for Turin grew day by day, and she thought of Beren and Luthien. But Turin was not like Beren! He did not scorn her, and was glad in her company; yet she knew that he had no love of the kind she wished. His mind and heart were elsewhere, by rivers in springs long past.” (pg 166, ”Túrin in Nargothrond”). So. Túrin never falls in love with Finduilas, and, in fact, the reason he doesn’t fall in love with her is that his “mind and heart are elsewhere”. Hmmmm. I wonder where his heart is?

Okay, so then why is it that Túrin repeatedly refers to Finduilas but not to Beleg? It’s really obvious based on the quotes I’ve given so far that he was in love with Beleg (and for god’s sake, the man doesn’t talk for a YEAR after Beleg’s death), that he was not in love with Finduilas, and that he was (or thought he was, at least) in love with Níniel, enough to ask her to marry him. So where the hell is Beleg in his thoughts for all this time when he’s falling for Níniel and thinking back to Finduilas?

For the answer to this, we need to consider the dual nature of Níniel’s relationship to Túrin, and what its source is.

Yes, Túrin loves Níniel, as his wife, but we know he also loved his sister Niënor, as a sister, and part of the reason he kills himself is that he can’t handle that he’s driven his sister to her death via incest (albeit accidental incest). It’s notable that Túrin loves Finduilas as a sister,

“Then Turin spoke freely to [Finduilas] concerning these things, though he did not name the land of his birth, nor any of his kindred; and on a time he said to her: 'I had a sister, Lalaith, or so I named her; and of her you put me in mind. But Lalaith was a child, a yellow flower in the green grass of spring; and had she lived she would now, maybe, have become dimmed with grief. But you are queenly, and as a golden tree; I would I had a sister so fair.’” (pg. 164, “Túrin in Nargothrond”.)

So these references to Finduilas make a narrative kind of sense — in addition to it mostly happening as Túrin is passing her grave, it’s a textual reminder of a hidden truth: Níniel is not just Túrin’s lover, but also his sister. He even finds her upon the grave of someone he loved as a sister. But there’s another truth hidden in the text as well, and it’s related to Níniel’s nature as Túrin’s lover. Because let’s be real, if he found her on the grave of someone he loved very firmly in a non-romantic way, why does he become romantically interested in her? She’s his sister—obviously he doesn’t know that, but the narrative is saying it very, very clearly. Well…there’s a confounding factor.

Here’s how Túrin finds Níniel (pg. 214): “Now it chanced that some of the woodmen of Brethil came by in that hour from a foray against Orcs, hastening over the Crossings of Teiglin to a shelter that was near; and there came a great flash of lightning, so that the Haudh-en-Elleth was lit as with a white flame.”

And here is how Túrin discovers that he has killed Beleg (pg. 155): “But as he stood, finding himself free, and ready to sell his life dearly against imagined foes, there came a great flash of lightning above them, and in its light he looked down on Beleg's face.”

The narrative does draw a parallel between Níniel and Beleg, an extremely strong (if subtle) one. It uses literally the same phrase to set up the scene: “there came a great flash of lightning”. So there’s a pretty clear answer as to why Túrin might associate Níniel with romantic love—he doesn’t just find her on his as-it-were sister’s grave, he finds her in a way that hearkens strongly back to the last time he ever saw his lover’s face.

So why doesn’t he think of Beleg now?

Why is the thought of his lover—whose loss cut him so deeply he didn’t speak for a year—so far out of his mind at this moment that his name isn’t even mentioned, even when narratively there’s no way he shouldn’t think of him?

Okay, I’ve drawn this out enough, so let’s cut to the chase: Glaurung. Glaurung, who is responsible for the first hidden truth that I mentioned, the more textually explicit one, that Níniel is Niënor, Túrin’s sister. He bespells Niënor upon Amon Ethir, “Then he drew her eyes into his, and her will swooned. And it seemed to her that the sun sickened and all became dim about her; and slowly a great darkness drew down on her and in that darkness there was emptiness; she knew nothing, and heard nothing, and remembered nothing,” (pg 209, “The Journey of Morwen and Niënor”) causing her to lose her memories and with her memories her name and therefore any way for Túrin to know who she is. Glaurung earlier bespells Túrin as well, “Without fear Turin looked in those eyes as he raised up his sword; and straightway he fell under the dreadful spell of the dragon, and was as one turned to stone.” (pg. 178, “the Fall of Nargothrond”) The first, obvious result of Glaurung’s spell (and the only explicit one) is that he leaves Finduilas and rushes off to try and find Morwen and Niënor. Now, we’re meant to believe that this is all that the spell does, since in “The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin”, pg. 166, the text notes, “And suddenly a black wrath shook him; for his eyes were opened, and the spell of Glaurung loosed its last threads, and he knew the lies with which he had been cheated.”

But I don’t think this makes sense. I think Tolkien is being poetical here and the “last threads” he’s talking about are specifically the lies about Finduilas. A number of Túrin’s conversations with Níniel point towards the fact that he’s forgotten something really important and that in that regard the dragon’s spell is still intact. For example, when Túrin tells Níniel what to call him (pgs 217-218, “Niënor in Brethil”):

“Then she paused as if listening for some echo; but she said: 'And what does that say, or is it just the name for you alone?'

“’It means,' said he, 'Master of the Dark Shadow. For I also, Niniel, had my darkness, in which dear things were lost; but now I have overcome it, I deem.’”

“My darkness” is eerily similar to the repeated motif of Níniel’s darkness, which explicitly refers to the spell cast on her by Glaurung.

“Behind her lay only an empty darkness” (pg 213, “Niënor in Brethil”); “it seem to her that the darkness that lay behind her was overtaking her again” (pg 214, “Niënor in Brethil”); “it seemed to her that she had found at last something that she had sought in the darkness” (pg. 215, “Niënor in Brethil”); and the two most relevant quotations, “And at that name she looked up, and she shook her head, but said: 'Níniel.' And that was the first word that she spoke after her darkness, and it was her name among the woodmen ever after” (pg 216, ”Niënor in Brethil”); and “when at length she had learned enough to speak with her friends she would say: 'What is the name of this thing? For in my darkness I lost it.’” (pg. 217, “Niënor in Brethil”)

So here it is: Túrin has lost “dear things” in “his darkness” (Glaurung’s spell) and he thinks that Níniel is what he has lost, but she isn’t—or she isn’t the only thing that’s missing. Glaurung has ripped out of Túrin’s mind the memory of the only person he’s ever had romantic feelings for—Beleg—and because he’s confused and trying to find something to fill that gap, Níniel gets cast in a dual role—not just sister (with her ties to Finduilas) but also lover (with her subtler ties to poor, missing Beleg).

This theory also has significant implications for Túrin’s death, since that’s the only time that Beleg is mentioned again, apart from a tangential sidenote. When Mablung finally confirms to Túrin what he’s already beginning to fear is the truth, that Níniel was his sister Niënor, he runs up to the Cabed-en-Aras, from which Níniel has thrown herself, and he asks his sword to kill him. His sword is Gurthang, which was Anglachel, made by Eöl, the sword that Thingol gave to Beleg and that Túrin used to accidentally kill him, and the response is somewhat unexpected, since up till now we haven’t had any indication that it’s a talking sword,

“‘And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yes, I will drink your blood, that I may forget the blood of Beleg my master…I will slay you swiftly.’” (pg. 256, “The Death of Túrin”)

Interestingly, this is after the sword has been reforged, and there’s no particular reason it should refer to Beleg as its master — after all, Túrin has been wielding it for years, and it was made by someone else entirely. So then, why? And why does it ask to forget his blood in particular?

Because Túrin has remembered, finally. Whether the sword is picking up on the mood, whether it’s a narrative device, or whether it isn’t even really talking and it’s just Túrin’s mind playing tricks on him in his last extremis, I don’t know—though I favor the latter interpretation, particularly because Túrin himself is referred to as “the Black Sword” on numerous occasions. But the important point here is Túrin has remembered, because Glaurung is dead, and his memory spells die with him, “Then Nienor sat as one stunned, but Glaurung died; and with his death the veil of his malice fell from her, and all her memory grew clearer before her, from day unto day, neither did she forget any of those things that had befallen her since she lay on Haudh-en-Elleth.” (pg. 243, “The Death of Glaurung”)

So Túrin knows by now exactly what he’s done—not only inadvertently marrying his sister but betraying the one great romantic love of his life. The one he has probably just remembered accidentally killing in great detail. It’s probably quite present in his mind when, rather than throw himself over the waterfall as Níniel did, he flings himself onto the very same sword that killed the only person he was ever in love with, whose name he has finally, finally been able to bring to mind…

In sum, Glaurung erases Beleg’s memory so thoroughly from Túrin’s mind that only tiny, hidden glimpses remain, even in the text. This is the solution to the mystery of the vanishing Elf; it explains why Beleg vanishes right up until the very end, and it ties together the sense I had when I was reading the second half of something missing, something hidden, something incomplete. It is, I imagine, the same way Túrin must have felt after he awoke—as he thought, completely—from the spell that Glaurung laid upon him the first time they fought.

[A/N: I also wrote a fic based on this premise: https://archiveofourown.org/works/28980519 ]

#Túrin #Beleg #Silmarillion #the silmarillion #Turin Turambar #Beleg Cúthalion #Beleg Strongbow #meta #not my writing

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bedlamsbard · 4 years

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(in response to this post)

This turned out really, really long, so, uh, apologies? The short version is that the number one rule is that your legacy characters don’t undercut your main cast.

I think Rogue One and Solo pulled it off -- Solo is a weirder case because it’s a prequel story about a main character, but Rogue One’s use of Tarkin, Vader, Mon Mothma, Bail Organa, etc. worked for me because from the beginning they were there to support the original characters in the film and never wavered from that. Rogue One also benefited from knowing exactly what it was going to do and never wavering from that for an instant.

In terms of the shows, TCW is also not a straightforward case because it was using film characters as its mains and pulling from all over, but in terms of OT characters that appeared in the show, I am pretty happy with how TCW pulled off Chewbacca in Wookiee Hunt (3.22) -- puts him there, uses him well to support the main character of that particular arc (Ahsoka) and the other supporting characters (the other youngling Jedi), but it doesn’t turn into the Chewie episode. Same with Ackbar in the Mon Cala arc in S4: support, not overwhelming, doesn’t waver from the central theme of the arc. Tarkin’s the other big one, and I’m pretty satisfied with the way he was used in TCW -- he’s always there in reference to the main characters of the arcs he appears in, and not in reference to himself, if that makes sense -- he’s there because having him there specifically makes more sense than it doesn’t.

(Honestly, I think the little philosophical lessons really helped with TCW being able to keep its focus: they have to drive straight towards that and not hesitate about it. Every time they dropped those (I’m talking about you, Siege of Mandalore), they ran into a problem where they sort of wandered around a bit.)

Maul...I like Maul a lot. I don’t have that much of a problem with the decision to bring him back into the timeline in TCW (at least you always knew that when George Lucas was doing something he was doing it because he enjoyed it, instead of the current case of “are you doing it for a purpose? for cheap lulz? for the aesthetic? are you setting up a sequel? are you trying to course-correct another piece of canon?”). I do think Maul got overweighted in S7, and this is partially because they didn’t really have the space to build him up from where he ended in S5. The Darth Maul - Son of Dathomir comic helps a little, but S7 is such a rapid switch from where he is in S5 (and you do have to assume that most viewers hadn’t read the comic) that he then pulls in too much narrative weight, and that’s because S7 was trying to do something really, really different from what the previous six seasons of TCW were trying to do.

Rebels sometimes pulls it off, sometimes does not. Since we’re on the topic of Maul already, I am actually fine with Maul in Rebels. I don’t actually think he was used to his full benefit because they pulled back at the last minute, but Maul in Twilight of the Apprentice? Fine with that. Same with Holocrons of Fate and Visions and Voices. (I’ve got a few other problems with Visions and Voices.) Maul is always there in relation to the main characters of the show, not in relation to himself and not in relation to a non-Rebels character. Did it have to be Maul (back in TotA, obvs, not the latter two)? No, but it makes sense and it works really well thematically with all of the characters present in that episode. Holocrons and Visions and Voices, same.

Twin Suns, on the other hand, another Maul episode, was a disaster -- beautifully made episode, everyone is in character, it should never have been made. (I’m currently grumpy about this one specifically because I recently saw an “Ezra shouldn’t have been in Twin Suns” take.) Yes, Maul and Obi-Wan are both interacting with Ezra, but Ezra in this ep is basically himself the McGuffin. Neither the actual, thematic, or emotional conflict in the episode revolves around Ezra even if he’s the instigator of that final showdown. If you can start and end an episode without the show’s main cast (and Rebels differs from TCW in that it did, very specifically, have a main character as well as a main cast), you’ve made a mistake. Not to mention that Twin Suns takes a bunch of narrative and thematic weight that was set in TotA and earlier in S3 (such as the Maul/Kanan and Maul/Ezra parallels), and then completely ignores it in favor of a confrontation that is not going to be emotionally significant for viewers who are there for the show’s main cast.

Darth Vader mostly works in Rebels -- in S2 in isolation, not as part of the greater Rebels plot arc which is a weird hot mess of deescalating villains season by season (a whole ‘nother thing). In Siege of Lothal he’s set up in relation to the main cast and that’s who most of his interaction is with. Same with TotA, though I sometimes think more weight is put on the Vader/Ahsoka duel than should be there in terms of who the main cast are. Sometimes I think it’s fine as is. His other brief appearances are fine, since he’s mostly there just to loom and use up the fabric animation budget.

Tarkin really works in Rebels -- this is honestly Rebels’ biggest legacy character success, my gods, his introduction in Call to Action is terrifying. Did it have to be Tarkin? No, they could have made an OC and had the same role, but Tarkin here, in this context? It ups the tension level a thousand percent, we see him ordering around the Imperials in the show (and the execution scene still gives me chills), and the end of Call to Action, when he’s talking to Kanan on the gunship and orders the destruction of the communications tower? This is easily one of the most terrifying thing Rebels has ever done and to be honest, I’m not sure they ever topped it in terms of sheer presence. Evacuating the star destroyer in Fire Across the Galaxy? Perfect parallel to ANH.

From S2-S4, Rebels really wavers back and forth on their use of legacy characters and this is true of the show as a whole from that point onwards -- when there’s a legacy character, they tend to be overweighted in terms of the episode and in terms of how much narrative space is given to them rather than to the main cast. Not all the time (I have issues with the S4 Mandalore arc, but I think Bo-Katan was played fairly well because most of the narrative weight was still on Sabine), but a lot of the time. The Future of the Force is really bad on this in terms of Ahsoka -- most of the episode is still focused on Kanan and Ezra, but then they’re taken off the board so she can have her dramatic fight scene. Shroud of Darkness -- I go back and forth. (I have other issues with Shroud.) Leia in A Princess on Lothal -- mostly okay, but some weird moments, like using her to rally the Ghost crew into action?

Wedge in The Antilles Extraction -- fine He’s played in relation to Sabine, his presence in the ep is thematically consistent with everything else they’re doing. Saw Gerrera in both S3 and S4 I really go back and forth on. I think I’m mostly okay with him in terms of how he’s played in those four episodes, but I also think there are a lot of questions raised in terms of, like, his relationship to the Alliance. (This goes for his appearance in Jedi Fallen Order as well -- I’m fine with it, it’s not mindblowing, it was nice to see.) Mon Mothma I go back and forth on and part of this is because I’m not entirely sure what they were doing with the Rebel Alliance -- this same thing is true for Saw Gerrera. Especially in the back half of S3 (though it appears earlier as well), Rebels is intersecting more and more with the Rebel Alliance in the lead-up to Rogue One and ANH, but I don’t think they were really entirely sure what they wanted to do with that thematically, which is how we get these wildly varying views of the Alliance even from within it, especially in S4. Which is part of the reason why S4 thematically is A DISASTER. (y’all I should not have come out of S4 hating the Rebel Alliance and I still can’t tell if they did that on purpose or not?)

I’m not mentioning every legacy character in Rebels here (Cham, Hondo, Madine, C-3PO and R2-D2, Bail Organa), but mostly the ones where they pay major roles. Rex I think Rebels mostly managed to pull off having as treating him like supporting cast and not overweighting him as character. -- The clone trio at the beginning of S2 has them in relation to Kanan, Ezra, Kallus and the stormtroopers, etc., not just in relation to themselves.

(I have no idea how to talk about Thrawn in this context because Thrawn isn’t exactly a legacy character from the current canon, but on the other hand he’s a major EU legacy character, so he’s also just a weird god damn case in general that doesn’t really have a parallel in current canon?)

What else we got -- Star Wars Resistance; doesn’t use that many legacy characters but uses the ones it has pretty sparingly. Poe is always there in relation to Kaz, Leia has a very brief appearance, Phasma and Hux are mostly there because it makes sense for them to be there, same with Kylo Ren. Resistance has its issues (both thematically and with pacing) but this is not one of them).

Jedi Fallen Order -- Saw was fine; Vader wasn’t overweighted once he showed up. Battlefront II had its legacy characters almost entirely in context of Iden and Del; they weren’t there just to be there. (And not being a gamer I’m not one hundred percent certain how those two felt in actual playing, vs. my watching them on YT.)

(I am not terribly familiar with the current canon books and comics because I stopped reading them a while ago.)

Non-canon example from Legends: Han Solo’s appearance in the Wraith Squadron novels.

The short version of this is: if you’re going to use legacy characters, you want them to be there in relation to your main cast. It has to work thematically; they can’t undercut your mains. Their stories, no matter how important to the saga as a whole, should not overwhelm the main cast of your actual show/film/game/whatever. And they definitely should not undercut your mains. (I think Mando did this fine with Bo-Katan, tbh.)

#bedlam watches star wars #bedlam watches tcw #bedlam watches rebels #kimothee-chalamet #bedlam replies

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elvencantation · 4 years

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just went to see tros. major spoilers ahead

[[MORE]]

so i’m gonna try to go through this as in order as i can

- rey doing the avatar pose with the rocks orbiting her was super cool. as was her training with leia

- her getting distracted (and becoming somehow angry) by kyle ron staring at his grandads melted skull? not so much

- leia in general i think they handled pretty well. i even was okay with her death, though it did feel rushed. either way any glimpses of our beloved carrie warmed my heart

- i fuckin love bb8’s little sidekick. him being narratively incredibly important? felt forced

- lando? YES!!

- the weird rey doing force lightning? NO!!!

- i just have so many issues with this ‘dyad connection’

- stop trying to make more jedi powers. first the connection, then healing, then the lightning tree?? seriously?

- speaking of which, sith rey was way overdone. i could have understood her appearance in the first place, hearkening back to the dark cave luke went into on dagobah. but once again, it was played into the ground. and the teeth? seriously? (yes it was very attractive but that’s beside the point. evil versions are always hotter)

- kyle ron just kept pissing me off. but that’s a whole nother post entirely. i would’ve liked the helmet kintsugi for purely aesthetic reasons if it had any emotional impact at all. kintsugi is repairing a broken object and making it more beautiful for its having been put together again, and the love put into fixing it. none of that fit with the weird reforging of his helmet. he didn’t even do it himself palpatine’s little slaves did it. it looked cool but felt wrong

- hux being the traitor because he just ‘wants him to lose’? made absolutely no sense whatsoever and came completely out of left field. unless i’m just missing something. which i definitely could be

- rey getting completely distracted on the way to get the knife and letting her friends get captured? dumb. stupid narrative decision. it felt dishonest to the rest of her characterization up until now

- and it made for another weird connection scene with ofc i didn’t enjoy. vader’s helmet has great symbolic importance. it being left on that planet just to tell kyle ron that rey was on his ship? another stupid narrative decision!!

- also what the fuck was zorri and the whole spice runner being a secret thing? are we in dune? like let’s shoehorn in a backstory that has no emotional impact because there was no buildup or investment whatsoever. yes i understand they were trying to draw han solo parallels but it was just- once again- awkward and forced

-jannah just rubbed in our faces all the lost potential of finn leading a storm trooper rebellion from the inside. we were ROBBED

- if they had played with the c3po losing his memory storyline it could’ve had much more potential. but once again there was no emotional impact because it was badly written and awkwardly placed just to give us another ‘cute’ character. which yes. i fell for. i love babu. sidebar: i just looked up that characters name and they were voiced by moaning myrtle??

- the scenes on the destroyed death star. the fight looked beautiful, it was well shot and the set was amazing. i loved the giant waves, everything. but han? seriously? at least they didn’t try to make him a force ghost. that’s literally all i can be thankful for. leia reaching out to him could’ve had that very same narrative outcome of him throwing away the lightsaber. and it would’ve made so much more sense

- merry popping up everywhere without pippin was both sad and jarring for me personally

- and then we get to the final battle

-i’ve been drawing a lot of parallels between storylines in the movie and from the thrawn trilogy

- admit it, Exegol doesn’t sound half as cool as Mount Tantus

- cloning tanks, secret super powerful fleet, all of that was in thrawn but done much better

- i absolUTELY hated the view palpatine gave rey of the battle scene. it was done in the return of the jedi, it was done in the last jedi, it just felt overdone

- i’m not even going to talk about the reveal of rey’s identity. it’s just fucking stupid. her choosing to call herself a skywalker would have been just as impactful, if not more, if we’d kept her parentage a non plot point

- also don’t think that i didn’t notice the parallels to the alien at the festival asking her last name to the lady on tattooine. since when have last names ever been so stressed in star wars. it just felt awkward

- whats with the red storm troopers? yet another awkward detail added for #aesthetic with no reasoning behind it whatsoever?

- and onwards we go- to whatever the fuck happened when kyle joins rey in front of palpatine. this isn’t harry potter. he isn’t a dementor. it’s just- completely out of place. like wtf

- i am 100% convinced the weird chanting ‘audience’ was just rows upon rows of empty cloaks palpatine was animating because he’s a fucking drama queen. like if not, where did he get that many people? who are they? are they more force ghosts in inappropriate places?

- speaking of, i guess i could see what they were trying to do with the whole ‘i am all the sith/jedi’ thing, but it really didn’t make any sense, even with the ‘be with me’ thing rey was doing at the beggining of the movie. yet another new jedi power. ugh

- my brain personally has disassociated the re*lo kiss from the scene completely. it feels like something out of a different movie. there’s no lead up, it feels like two completely different characters than the ones we’ve been watching these past three movies

- we could’ve just had him die killing palpatine, or shielding her or giving her the chance to kill palpatine by sacrificing himself

- and no, i don’t count the part where she healed him any sort of lead up to the kiss. it felt just as awkward and forced as the rest of the directors/writers trying to redeem the relationship. no. emotional. impact. and the parallels they tried to draw between him and rey? also didn’t work

- the lightsaber trick did look really cool i enjoyed that a lot. i also surprisingly enjoyed kyle ron out of armor. he looked a lot more... real? in fact he looked so much like a different character i was even kinda emotionally invested in him in that scene. maybe i have a weak spot for ‘strong’ characters being vulnerable? or beat up angsty people? both? either way i actually enjoyed watching him onscreen those like five minutes. adam driver’s a good actor. ain’t his fault his character was written badly

- what’s with their bodies disappearing?? are we pulling a voldemort here? only yoda did that and he’s special. also leia’s body waiting to vanish until kyle died? i understand what they were getting at but it just doesn’t make sense

- that all being said, finn and poe’s screen time was lovely. they work so well together. that hug after the battle, thank you oscar isaac it was so gay. finn’s hair looked amazing, them being generals together felt so right, it had such potential

-the sandstormpilot hug was also amazing. poe kept grabbing rey’s hand and finn tearing up and- i’m gonna pretend they’re all together and everything is good with the world. they just make such an amazing team i love them so much

- most of the filmography and settings were gorgeous. the recreation of the podrace was eh, but rey wrecking the TIE fighter was better than that entire scene and pretty much made up for it in my mind. also since i’m in that scene, the scare of losing chewie was just plain cruel. it wasn’t a good plot twist, it didn’t work, it was just mean

- why did rey get a sentinel lightsaber?

#tros spoilers #anti r*ylo #sw spoilers #sw #tros liveblog #ish #blue watches #hope that amused yall #im starting to have a headache now #i literally started dissociating like an hour into the movie

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rahirah · 6 years

Note

The whole "And If the Grave Be Now Thy Bed" counts as a chapter or scene, right? "Splendid news, Mrs. Mears. Bloody Vengeance Inc. is going to take your case." Commentary, please :)))

For reference: https://archiveofourown.org/works/478957

Ok, this one is too long to do a blow-by-blow in a Tumblr post, so I'm gonna talk about it more generally.

For those of you who haven't read the series this story is a part of, it's a long-running AU which branches off of canon after "The Gift." I started writing the first story in it immediately after "The Gift" aired, so Spuffy wasn't even a canon thing yet. At the time, I was pretty certain that Spuffy would never be a canon thing; at most, I thought, there would be a lot of pining and UST, and maybe, in the very last season, Spike would get the crumb he was hoping for.

But I didn't care about that; something doesn't have to be canon for me to ship the hell out of it. And I was fascinated by the concept of an evil demon trying to be good. What would it look like, I wondered, if Spike and Buffy did get together in a working, functional relationship? What changes and compromises would both of them have to make? How would it meet both their needs? What would the pain points be? Of course, the easiest way to do it would be to slap a soul into Spike, but I felt that the show had already thoroughly explored that avenue with Angel, and I wanted to do something different. Plus I have never been one to do things the easy way, and one of the recurring themes in my writing in general is free will and choices. So I set myself the challenge of writing a story about how Buffy and Spike forge a relationship that works for both of them, and doesn't cheat on characterization – that is, Spike, having no human soul, is still "evil" in Buffyverse terms, and his motivations and behavior reflect that; even when he is doing good things, he is not doing them in the same way, or for the same reasons, as a human would. *

ANYWAY. In this AU, Warren Mears and Co. still killed Katrina, but Warren went to jail for it. However, when his inventions came to the attention of Wolfram & Hart, they got him released on a technicality, and brought him into their R&D department. Warren took the opportunity to get his revenge on Buffy and Spike by zapping Buffy into a W&H pocket dimension, where W&H was collecting Buffys from many dimensions for nefarious purposes. Unbeknownst to Warren, Buffy has just discovered that she's pregnant.

This scenario generated four stories: "The Lesser of Two Evils," which details what happens when Willow and Spike confront Warren and try to force him to bring Buffy back; "In A Yellow Wood," which is about Buffy's adventures in the pocket dimension, "If the Grave Be Now Thy Bed," which deals with the fallout of the first two stories, and "To Grandmother's House," which wraps up the arc with Buffy's final decision about the fate of her baby.

I wrote these stories all out of order: "To Grandmother's House" first, "The Lesser of Two Evils" second, "In A Yellow Wood" third, and "If the Grave Be Now Thy Bed" last. I knew the general course of the arc all along, but writing it inside out and backwards, over ten years or more, posed some interesting challenges. "If the Grave Be Now Thy Bed" was not part of the original arc plan – in fact, it grew out of feedback I got for "The Lesser of Two Evils."

TLOTE/IAYW are deliberately morally ambiguous stories. Spike, Willow, and Buffy all do questionable things – perhaps flat out wrong things – under severe emotional stress, and the consequences of those actions echo for a long time through the years to come. While I hope that readers find their motives understandable, and even sympathetic, I didn't necessarily expect that every reader would agree with or approve of their actions. Most people who've sent me feedback seem to enjoy the ambiguity, or at least find it intriguing. Not all of them, however.

One particular reader had...issues. Over the course of several conversations, I found out that while they were a Spuffy shipper, they had very particular requirements for the kind of Spuffy stories they liked. They had to be either A) totally canon-compliant, angst-ridden stories where Buffy hated herself for giving in to Spike's sinister attraction, or B) stories where Spike was a Romance Novel Bad Boy With a Heart of Gold, and there was a tacit agreement between writer and reader that hey, we both know this is totally OOC for both characters, but we're just here for the porn, amirite nudge-nudge wink-wink.

Reader In Question had started in on my work with the assumption that it fell into the latter category, but the more they read, the less comfortable they got, because, as I mentioned above, I was in this for serious. I sweat blood over characterization. And I was starting to convince them that maybe a relationship between Buffy and soulless Spike COULD work. And they didn't WANT to believe that. So they absolutely had to interpret my work as a dystopian take on Buffy's slide into total moral decay, with this particular arc as the nadir of her fall.** They left me some despondent feedback on TLOTE, wondering what Warren's dear mother would think of this turn of events. I'm not sure if they intended to shame me (or Buffy) for our evil ways, but I thought it was an interesting point. And it planted the seed of an idea.

Over the next several years, as I worked on IAYW (and let me say right here, the less-than-enthusiastic feedback Reader In Question sent me on TLOTE made me work my ass off on IAYW. Though I obviously don't agree with their overall interpretation, I thought they had some good points, and I wanted to be sure that IAYW addressed those points) I mulled over the thought: What WOULD happen if Warren's dear old mother confronted Buffy and Spike?

A lot would depend upon what Warren's dear old mother was like. There were two obvious ways I could go with that: she could be an innocent victim, or she could be as much of a monster as Warren was. But I didn't want to do anything obvious with this story. Fic-wise, I always like to take the road less traveled if I can, but in this case, I have to admit that I got a perverse pleasure out of taking Reader In Question's finger-wagging admonition and using it as inspiration for a story that's, well, not exactly what I imagine they were hoping to inspire. I decided that I was going to make Mrs. Mears a little of both.

The next question was, what did I want to have happen when she shows up?Again, the obvious thing would be to have Buffy feel guilty. But I had already dealt extensively with Buffy's feelings, and her reasons for making the decisions she made, in IAYW and TGH. Yes, she feels guilty; she's not sure she did the right thing. She's not even sure there was a right thing to do. But that particular subplot plays out over the long term in this AU, culminating many years later in a completely different story arc, and I couldn't bring it to a premature resolution here. Besides, I knew that Barbverse Buffy would never return to the uncompromising system of morality that Reader In Question wanted her to,*** so there was no point in writing a story where she Learns Her Lesson, Dusts Spike, and Is Very Sorry. ****

So I decided that this story would focus on Spike, and his reaction to Warren's mother and her loss of a son. And that opened up a lot of possibilities. I was to some extent constrained by the fact that I'd already written quite a lot of stories taking place after this one in the timeline, so there were certain things I couldn't do. But I've always found that if you ask yourself, "What would X logically do in this situation?" and follow that through, you can avoid Idiot Plot Syndrome. Let your characters be smart. What would Spike do, confronted with the mother of the man he'd killed? What would Mrs. Mears demand of him in recompense?

What I wanted to do in this story was to answer those questions in a way that people wouldn't expect. I was able to bring Spike's ambivalent feelings about his own mother into play, and provide a way for him to get some character development around coming to terms with her death and his part in it that I might not otherwise have been able to do. And I was able to draw parallels between Warren and his mother, and Spike and Anne Pratt, and come up with some really intriguing takes on how and why Spike can do the right(ish) thing even when his reasons are kinda-sorta wrong(ish). It gives some background, hopefully, on how Buffy can make the ultimate decision she does in "To Grandmother's House," and not feel that she's tobogganing head-first down the slippery slope of Utter Moral Decay. And I got to write Zombie Warren, who was gruesomely, deliciously horrible. And I got to give Mrs. Mears the last word.

By the time I finished the story, Reader In Question had long since left fandom, and they probably wouldn't have read it even if they were still around. But I feel I have to thank them for it anyway. And that's why I always say that even though I don't necessarily like getting critical feedback, it can be the most useful feedback you can get if you look at it in the right way.

__________

* I could write a whole nother essay about the challenges of writing an evil-trying-to-be-good vampire, but that is beyond the scope of the current post.

** Eventually, they practically begged me to tell them that I was deliberately writing Buffy and Spike out of character, and that I didn't really think a relationship between them could work. Alas, I could not oblige them, and they stopped reading my stuff.

*** I don't even believe canon Buffy stuck to that kind of rigid moral code – she tried to, but one of the things that makes her a complex, fully realized character is that canon Buffy is perfectly capable of double standards and hypocrisy where her friends are concerned, not to mention just plain changing her mind about things over the course of the show. For every decision I have Barbverse Buffy [or Spike, for that matter] make, I can point to something in canon and say "This is why I think she could do that."

****Although... I do have an alternate ending to "To Grandmother's House" plotted out in my head, where Buffy [either accidentally or on purpose – just as in the main story, it's ambiguous] doesn't stop Giles in time. I consider the Barbverse to be a low-probability AU, and I watch out for times and ways in which things could go spectacularly wrong, just so I can be sure to avoid them in a believable manner. Or write stories about them going wrong, and the characters dealing with them.

*****

#btvs #buffy the vampire slayer #writing #fic discussion #asks #barbverse #thenewbuzwuzz

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bthump · 7 years

Text

My Big Gay Berserk Analysis 3

Casca’s Role

Part One Part Two

In this post I’m going to discuss how Casca’s narrative role as a love interest overlaps with her narrative role as a substitute for Griffith, how those roles ultimately serve the main story that is the love/hate relationship between Guts and Griffith, and how Miura utilizes her as an emotional/sexual conduit between the two while also conveniently no-homoing them. Plus some additional straightforward stuff on Guts and his crush on Griffith here and there.

Advance warning: this is long. Looooooong. Also be warned that I do touch on the hound and the Eclipse, but only in one section of this post.

I also want to make clear upfront that I love Casca but I dislike the Guts/Casca romance subplot, for many reasons including my general dislike of most het, Guts’ awful treatment of her, and the sense I get that she’s been inserted as a buffer between Guts and Griffith, but mostly because I think the romance was added almost entirely to set up the destruction of Casca as a character for the sake of Guts’ manpain.

So yeah going in you should be aware that this is Guts/Casca negative. I don’t consider their romantic feelings for each other a valuable part of Berserk, and I spend a lot of time calling the legitimacy of those feelings into question. If that sounds like it’ll piss you off but you still want more Guts/Griffith content, you can totally just skip to part 4 without missing any necessary information for that part.

Ok that said, let’s get into it.

We’ll go back to the Golden Age eventually but I’m going to jump ahead first and start at chapter 130, during Guts’ night of self-reflection after he returns to Godo’s cave and finds Casca missing.

Guts is basically having an internal debate about whether or not his revenge rampage was worth abandoning Casca. He eventually emphatically concludes that it was in fact not worth it and he fucked right up when he draws this connection:

Again again again again. I’m starting here because it’s one of the most clear and straightforward examples of Guts viewing Casca as a replacement for Griffith. The connection is drawn explicitly - he considers abandoning Casca to be the equivalent of abandoning Griffith and drawing that parallel is what motivates him to save her.

But despite wanting to start atoning for past mistakes, he still intends to abandon her in a cave again after he gets her back.

“Actually, I only half mean it.”

Cue this #iconic page:

Now I talk about this page all the damn time because of how off the charts gay it is, but more importantly right now is that it draws a strong contrast between Casca and Griffith. It begins with “Just as I got her back... no, in the middle of swinging my sword to get her back...”

In the middle of getting her back... he... saw him. By framing Griffith’s appearance as an interruption that rips his attention away from rescuing Casca, Guts expresses the feeling that he’s torn between them. And of course he is, we see this throughout the rest of the manga, in his internal struggle not to toss Casca aside (or worse) and run after Griffith to, “give him... a heap of raw iron.”

We also see this inner conflict during NeoGriffith’s appearance when this happens:

But as of right now, Griffith has won the fight for Guts’ attention.

Guts’ half truth, as far as I can tell, is that he’s going to help make Godo’s cave a little homier and then take off again after Griffith.

As we saw in chapter 130 he decided to dedicate himself to getting Casca back, and we can assume that he fully intended to give up his revenge quest at that point. Godo tore him a new one over abandoning her to fight monsters, Guts realized he’s been being a dick, and he’s figured that maybe staying and helping take care of Casca is a better way of dealing with his issues than going back on a rampage, especially since last time he saw Femto he couldn’t even come close to touching him.

But then Skull Knight tells him the Godhand are going to be around, there’s going to be another version of the Eclipse, and we see Guts conflicted again:

Anyway Isidro ultimately saves Casca, she and Guts are reunited, and Griffith appears. Maybe Guts’ original plan was to stay with Casca and forget revenge, but now Griffith is reachable, he’s on the same plane of existence, and to top it all off, he’s hot again!

And no I’m not joking, I absolutely think that Guts’ sexual attraction to Griffith is, for the first time since Promrose Hall, being clearly visually conveyed again. I already posted that iconic page in which Guts pictures Griffith’s ass and gets distracted from revenge, but there’s more where that came from.

Griffith's sexiness is genuinely an important plot and thematic point lol, but it’s Guts eyes we’re shown that through, and holy shit does his gaze get a lot of attention in this scene. And why? Because Griffith’s reachable again. When he’s monstrous and demonic he’s out of reach on a whole nother plane of existence and shown as distant and untouchable:

When he’s incarnated as a physical being again he’s said to be “the desired,” he’s so beautiful no one can shut up about it, and imo Guts’ temptation to pursue him now that he’s “where [his] sword can reach,” is tied to the sexual temptation on display here.

Basically, while he’s certainly not intending to pursue Griffith so he can literally fuck him, there are blatant sexual undertones to his desire for revenge that ramp up hard and fast real soon, and they start with Griffith’s sexy as fuck rebirth.

And to elaborate on how the depiction of Griffith is a huge contrast here to the depiction of Casca:

Casca is shown at her least sexualized. She’s wrapped in a shapeless cloak and mirroring Erika, depicted as utterly childlike.

And this is Griffith:

Griffith is the temptation, he’s the one Guts wants to pursue, and Casca is the responsibility, and this is shown loud and clear through Griffith’s intense desirability and Guts’ enthrallment at the sight of him vs Casca’s desexualized childishness.

As for the Hill of Swords reunion

“More like someone out of a fairytale.”

Not overly relevant but it’s a fun detail that “He was so pretty” is on Guts’ face while “someone out of a fairytale” is on Griffith’s image.

That sound - like Griffith’s apparent acknowledgement, at long last, is a physical blow. Love it.

But of course then Griffith’s like, I came to see you to test my capacity for emotion, and it looks like this whole emotionless demon thing was a success. And this is Guts’ reaction - not rage, or at least, not solely rage, but so much hurt too:

Look at those sad eyebrows man. This scene thoroughly shows us how emotionally conflicted and confused Guts is. He’s angry, he’s hurt, he’s full of longing both for revenge and for “the way he he used to be,” and after everything he still wants acknowledgement, he still wants Griffith to look at him.

“I’ll not betray my dream. That is all.”

And it’s now that Guts finally attacks. So far he’s let Rickert hold him back, then shoved him away only to scream “you don’t feel anything?!” instead of rushing him. But when NeoGriff tells Guts in no uncertain terms that his dream is not only more important, but his sole priority, Guts snaps.

I do think it’s really easy to read this scene as Guts looking for a hint that Griffith still cares about him, along with the hope that he feels regret for what he’s done. Guts had a lot of misconceptions about Griffith’s feelings, but by the time of the Eclipse he’d realized that Griffith loved him - he’d left to seek something (love and respect and affection, friendship and equality) he already had and, in leaving, lost it.

Scroll back up to that first picture I posted, he says it right there: “Did I lose something before I even noticed it again?! Without even realizing I’d thrown it from the palm of my hand!” There’s a small part of him that was still hoping, now that Griffith is un-demonized, that his heart and his love had returned with his human body, that it’s not lost forever. But in declaring that he’s free, NeoGriffith shoots that hope down.

Anyway big fight, cave collapses, Griffith’s heart starts doing shit unbeknownst to Guts, he mysteriously saves Casca and takes off, and Guts

says he won’t abandon Casca again and decides to escort her to Elfhelm, with his dickish reluctance handily pointed out by Decent Person Puck lol.

Now look at this shit:

“Weren’t those Godo’s parting words?” Says Guts to Rickert to convince him to stay with Erika.

“You should have known. This is the man I am.”

Don’t abandon what you can’t replace. He finally learned that lesson when he compared abandoning Casca to abandoning Griffith. He frames his choice to stay with Casca as making up for it. Guts once deserted Griffith, now Griffith has deserted him, so he’s promising not to desert Casca. Given that Guts’ mind is solely on deserting and being deserted by Griffith, as opposed to that time when he left Casca in a cave for two years and she wandered off, “I won’t desert you anymore. This time... I won’t lose you,” is given a double meaning of applying to Casca while also referencing losing Griffith.

But what’s with that interlude up there of Guts remembering Griffith saving Casca? The man Guts “knows” NeoGriffith is, the man who dgaf about anything except his dream, isn’t the man who would randomly decide to save Casca from falling rocks. Guts is shown thinking about that apparent contradiction immediately before “I won’t leave you behind. I won’t... desert you anymore.”

Taken all together, to me this scene comes across as so utterly Griffith centric that it makes Casca feel like an afterthought, conveniently there so Guts can take some form of action in response to his extremely Griffith-centred emotions.

Guts charlie brown walks away because Griffith “deserted” him. Guts draws a comparison between abandoning Griffith and abandoning Casca, and being abandoned by NeoGriffith and refusing to abandon Casca. Guts remembers NeoGriffith saying he knows what kind of man he is right before recalling him saving Casca.

Then he declares he won’t desert her again - and I have to wonder if part of what gives him the willpower to take a break from his revenge quest despite NeoGriffith residing so temptingly in his plane of existence now is the ambiguity of NeoGriffith’s actions here, casting “the kind of man” he is now into doubt and deflating Guts’ rage boner the same way he says seeing NeoGriffith looking “so human... the way he used to be” makes him forget his “urge to kill.” It hardly seems like a stretch given how much of Guts’ decision here is explicitly shown to be about Griffith.

So far, post-Eclipse, Casca’s been treated as a prop for Guts’ internal conflict between revenge and not being a dick - a symbol of his lingering humanity. She exists to be put into peril so Guts can decide to save her and then waver between her and Griffith. She’s the poster girl for failing to pass the sexy lamp test. It’s real depressing, and it’s about to get worse.

Enter Beast of Darkness.

Now we’re at the really bad shit, but also the actual most explicit verbal suggestion of Guts’ sexual attraction to Griffith, so it’s impossible to skip in a post on the topic. Plus there’s no point pretending that Casca isn’t done incredibly dirty by both the narrative and Guts.

It’s important to understand that the Hound is Guts. It’s not an evil malicious spirit trying to manipulate and possess Guts (which I have seen suggested before), it’s simply Guts’ dark emotions given substance. Just on the off chance this statement requires support for you, here’s a post on the subject. This scene is pretty much Guts arguing with his id.

And the way it’s framed with “dreams of him?” “let’s go to him” coming first on the image of an eager, excited puppy, followed by the teeth and “heap of raw iron” feels so deliberate to me. Guts wants violent revenge but it’s a feeling complicated by the fact that he loved Griffith, that he once strove to be his equal, to be considered his friend, and now he strives to kill him.

Like Guts facing Femto in the Black Swordsman arc, like Guts pleading for a shred of regret from NeoGriffith, there’s still an element of Guts wanting Griffith’s acknowledgement here.

More direct comparisons between Casca and Griffith and how Guts feels about them. Who’s more precious, your love interest or your arch nemesis?

And I’m not here to say that Guts doesn’t care for Casca and only cares about Griffith. As this scene shows, he’s torn between them, but he’s chosen Casca now, and he’s trying to get his doubts and his rage and his suppressed attraction to Griffith that’s now coming to the surface, coloured by hate, to shut the fuck up. But these are his own doubts.

“The wound Griffith left, because you want to keep feeling the pain he caused you?” Okay, certainly an eyebrow raising description here but all right, this is about Guts’ motivation to kill Griffith. The Hound is suggesting he values Casca only as fuel for his rage. Which certainly seems like a relevant suggestion after Guts’ “I'd forgotten my urge to kill. And that... can’t be.” His rage needs fuel. So while that’s surely not all there is to his feelings for Casca, the Hound isn’t making shit up. Again, this is essentially Guts internally debating what his true motivations are.

Longing. Hell of a word choice. Granted I can’t double check the translation with others because I’m incapable of tracking down old raws (tho I did a cursory search on skullknight.net to see if anyone had criticized the translation of this scene and didn’t find anything) but this is such a boldly romanticized choice of phrasing that I feel it’s safe to assume the undertones are there in the original Japanese. You don’t accidentally describe someone’s urge to kill a dude as “longing” for him. That’s a blatantly deliberate double entendre.

And on top of that it fits right in with the Hound’s first eager, excited words to Guts in this scene. Again, it’s an illustration that Guts’ vengeful feelings are complex, and intertwined with his original feelings for Griffith.

And then the Hound tells Guts to rape Casca so he can get closer to Griffith and I throw up my hands.

There’s so much innuendo and homoeroticism in the lead up to this (including earlier, w/ Griffith’s sexy rebirth scene and the reunion on the Hill of Swords, ft Guts thinking about Griffith’s ass), and then this scene just doubles down as hard as possible. “Let’s give him... a heap of raw iron,” “because you want to keep feeling the pain he caused you,” “she’s a sacrifice so you can continue longing for Griffith,” “you’ll get closer and closer to Griffith.” The innuendo in this scene makes it one of the most homoerotic scenes in the manga.

Like, tl;dr Guts’ vengeful pursuit of Griffith is tied so thoroughly to sex in this nightmare that tbh I have a hard time calling this subtext.

And while it is absolutely homophobic for one of the gayest scenes in the manga to basically tie Guts’ desire for Griffith to his desire for revenge and a suggestion to rape and kill Casca, it’s also worth noting that this isn’t exactly Guts’ desire for revenge being given a dark sexual element.

This is the Beast of Darkness using Guts’ pre-existing desire for Griffith to try to tempt him into sticking a sword in him. Still fucked up, obviously, but it’s at least deeper and more interesting than the alternative.

The earlier parallels I described, Guts comparing leaving Griffith and leaving Casca, etc, draw an emotional connection between Guts and Griffith through Casca as, essentially, a bridge. Guts is assuaging his desire to go back and fix his mistakes by replacing Griffith with Casca and refusing to leave her. Casca has become an outlet for Guts’ feelings about missed opportunities with Griffith.

This chapter draws a very direct sexual connection between Guts and Griffith through Casca as a bridge. By raping the woman Femto raped, Guts can get closer to him.

And it is, of course, not the first time the manga has done this. Femto’s unwavering stare into Guts’ eye(s) during the Eclipse rape scene isn’t subtle, though I don’t intend to go into it in detail as this is about Guts’ sexual desire, not Griffith/Femto’s. I feel like the stare (the fucking stare omg) speaks for itself.

I mention this only to make the point that there’s an established precedent for Casca bearing the brunt of these dudes’ repressed feelings for each other, whether it’s genuinely intended to be interpreted as repressed sexual desire or whether it’s meant to be platonic spite/longing to get closer and closer to Griffith no homo. It’s not fair, it’s bad writing on several levels, it’s both misogynist and homophobic, but there you go.

Ultimately my main takeaway here is that Berserk would be about 500x less fucked up and offensive if Guts and Griffith just cut out the middlewoman and fucked each other.

Okay, that’s enough of that. Let’s go back to the Golden Age.

So far I’ve done my best to show that, post-Eclipse, Guts’ relationship with Casca largely revolves around his feelings for Griffith, both regretful and vengeful, and the fucked-up sexual component of his relationship with her also relates to the sexual component of his relationship with Griffith. So what about pre-Eclipse? Does the same principle hold true then, back when Casca was an actual character and not just a plot device and projection screen for Guts?

And I would argue that it does. It’s less in-your-face about it, but tbh not by a whole lot.

Casca and Guts start off as romantic rivals for Griffith’s affection. Only Casca is aware of this, since Guts’ attraction to Griffith is subconscious and repressed imo, but that’s their early dynamic. Their first emotionally intimate scene together, when they finally stop hating each other and start to bond as friends, is when Casca tells Guts her backstory, which happens to be almost entirely about Griffith.

The Casca chapters end with Casca crying about Griffith having fallen in love with Guts and not her (”Why... why did it have to be you?”), but all Guts manages to get out of Casca’s story is that she’s into Griffith, so after he decides to leave he starts trying to be a good bro and set them up. Finally, right before Guts leaves, Judeau introduces him to the concept of hooking up with Casca.

During the course of this conversation Guts does a kind of 180:

“The one who has her eye... is Griffith. That’s why... right now... I’m no good for her... like this.”

This is presented like part of Guts’ motivation for becoming Griffith’s equal is to be worthy of Casca, but we’ve seen his thought process for wanting to be Griffith’s equal, and Casca has never figured into it. He’d completely written her off before this chat with Judeau, as we see at the start, and he certainly never seemed to be consciously aware of the possibility of getting with her.

He’s been trying to set her up with Griffith for several chapters - pushing her into his arms, mentioning her dress to him, suggesting she ask him to dance, carrying her down to see him after Doldrey, saying “good luck with Griffith,” to her as he heads out, and now telling Judeau he expects them to get together.

There are three possible explanations for this behaviour:

1. Guts just wants to be a good bro and help his friends be happy together. 2. Guts is sublimating his unconscious desire for Casca into trying to hook her up with Griffith. 3. Guts is sublimating his unconscious desire for Griffith into trying to hook him up with Casca.

I think maybe Miura wants us to think it’s #2. Hence Guts’ awkward sweatdrop when Judeau brings her up, hence Guts complimenting her dress before mentioning it to Griffith, hence Guts carrying her down to him bridal style after Doldrey, hence Guts swiveling from “Less a woman I see her as... a comrade,” to “That’s why... right now... I’m no good for her... like this,” within seconds.

Yk, he’s subconsciously attracted to her now and acts on that attraction by trying to hook her up with Griffith to make her happy, but once Judeau tells him that’s not an option, he can admit that he’s attracted to her.

(And, just to throw something out there, once we establish that Berserk has subtextual, repressed sexual desire in this love triangle it only adds more validation to the other combinations. Even if we are genuinely meant to read Guts as unknowingly attracted to Casca, it puts unknowing attraction on the table. Who else might he be unknowingly attracted to? Casca also apparently took some time to recognize her feelings for Griffith as potentially romantic. Lots of subconscious desire wrapped up in this love triangle, I’m js. But lol I digress.)

That said, I’m here to argue that, whatever Miura’s intentions may be (and hell they may be exactly this), it comes across as option #3.

I’ve already gone through the first part of the Golden Age to highlight how Guts looks at him and how visuals suggest attraction. After Promrose, that fades away because Guts no longer views Griffith as reachable, rather, he puts him on a pedestal. Enter Casca, right at the point where Guts is deciding what to do with the “fact” that Griffith doesn’t give a fuck about him.

Suddenly he gets invested in setting Griffith up with Casca, who he views as more worthy of Griffith because she has a dream (be Griffith’s sword) and he doesn’t.

This is when Guts starts pushing them together. He’s encouraging Casca to take his place at Griffith’s side, whether he realizes the implications of that or not - at the very least he knows that Casca believes Griffith feels things for him she wishes he felt for her, even if Guts doesn’t believe that Griffith truly values him.

“Until that day. The day you showed up...”

What’s interesting to me is that Guts recognizes that Casca wants to fuck Griffith lmao. He’s hooking them up romantically, even though Casca never directly says she’s in love with Griffith, and only alludes to her feelings in terms of being pissed off at Guts for stealing Griffith away from her side.

Guts doesn’t believe he himself is close to Griffith after overhearing the Promrose speech, but he seems to realize that Casca is jealous of him, manages to interpret that (correctly) as Casca wanting to bone Griffith, and yet still doesn’t realize that Griffith’s feelings for him may be a lot more significant than he thinks. Feels like repression at work to me.

Guts wants Casca to take his perceived place at Griffith’s side, except Casca’s theoretically able to do so romantically bc she’s a woman, so there’s plenty of heteronormativity at work too, though whether that’s coming from Miura or Guts I can’t say.

So yeah after Judeau explains the plot of Berserk to him and keeps nudging him towards Casca, Guts agrees that maybe he could hook up with her... but only if he becomes Griffith’s equal first.

So the other way of looking at this is that, rather than suddenly changing Guts’ entire motivation out of nowhere from “become Griffith’s equal to be his friend” to “become Griffith’s equal to get with Casca,” and generally being bizarrely terrible writing, this instead neatly situates a future relationship with Casca, in which she sees him as just as good for her as Griffith, as proof that he’s on the road to achieving his goal of becoming Griffith’s equal.

Which holds true later on - Guts and Casca’s relationship is not an endgame for Guts, it’s not his goal, it’s another step. He still intends to go back out and keep pursuing his own dream. He’s still motivated by wanting to be Griffith’s equal.

So yeah, Judeau’s like, whatever, I tried, Guts ducks out, and shit proceeds to go down.

Fast forward a year.

Guts comes back. Casca, interestingly, has taken over Griffith’s most notable narrative role as leader of the Hawks. Everyone sits down around the campfire.

Rickert tries to explain things to Guts:

Look what Judeau does! He’s telling Rickert to shut up.

Judeau is... weirdly invested in Guts and Casca getting together. Setting them up is largely his motivation in the latter half of the Golden Age, as far as I can tell.

After this moment he changes the subject to:

Subtle, Judeau.

I think it’s telling that Guts never comes up with the idea of hooking up with Casca on his own. He’s led to it by resident shipper on board Judeau, every time. The same dude trying to avoid any mention of Griffith’s feelings for Guts now. Why? Because he wants Guts and Casca to leave together after they rescue Griffith, and he has a feeling Guts won’t want to if he figures out how Griffith actually feels about him.

Whether by accident of slapdash writing by Kentaro I actually hadn’t planned for Guts and Casca to get together, you know — it just occurred to me partway through that it’d be more dramatic that way Miura or design, Guts’ interest in Casca comes across as pretty damn narratively forced to me, and the fact that Judeau has to be there to constantly nudge Guts in that direction doesn’t help.

Waterfall time!

Hey here’s something interesting about this scene:

This is when Guts first starts trying to fix his mistakes by substituting Casca for Griffith, imo.

Casca attacks him while screaming that he ruined Griffith by leaving. As the point finally hits home, so does the point of Casca’s sword as Guts, shocked, lets her stab him.

Before Guts can really draw a useful conclusion from Casca’s diatribe, she offers a distraction from the subject at hand by trying to kill herself while bequeathing Griffith to him.

“I couldn’t be a woman. Or something invaluable. To keep on protecting the almost broken dream of someone who might not even be alive...“

Guts didn’t save the last Hawk leader who had a self destructive breakdown after dueling him.

Presented with another person who seems to need him, who is desperate and lost and needs comfort, this time he does something.

And what really makes me believe this is actually, for real the correct reading of this scene - that, to Guts, Casca is a substitution for Griffith here - is that Casca is doing the exact. Same. Thing.

Griffith is (seemingly) unreachable, (seemingly) emotionally and romantically unavailable, but Guts and Casca aren’t.

And they kiss for the first time right after Casca tells Guts how Griffith felt about him, right after Guts lets Casca stab him because of it, right after the memory of Griffith kneeling in the snow, and the beginnings of the realization that by leaving he lost what he set out to earn, hit him, right after Casca tells him that Griffith is his responsibility now. It’s hard not to take that as Guts using Casca as a substitution for Griffith, giving her what he’s now very slowly beginning to realize he should’ve given Griffith.

Guts and Casca getting together here is two people obsessed with the same person trying to offer the other what they couldn’t offer him: comfort. And sex.

Once again a scene that looks like it’s going to be about Casca and Guts, that should be if this was a typical romance, turns out to revolve around Griffith.

And on the subject of Guts leaving Griffith in the snow instead of kneeling down and kissing him the way he responds to Casca much later, how about Griffith going out and getting self-destructively laid while thinking about Guts after the duel? Thematically there’s a very well-defined empty space where Griffith and Guts connecting romantically would’ve fit, is what I’m saying, but they didn’t. They both sought out other sexual connections to compensate for the loss of each other.

Finally, here’s the straightforward account of how Guts and Casca are feeling three days later with Griffith’s imminent return to their lives. Casca confesses to Guts that she’s still jealous of Charlotte, Guts gets pissy, but then thinks:

I hate that you’re still hung up on Griffith but I’d be a huge hypocrite if I got mad because I’m even more hung up on Griffith.

Which pretty much sums it up.

And I think I can stop there. There’s a lot more to say in the lead-in to the Eclipse about Guts’ intense feelings for Griffith, but when it comes to sexual attraction specifically, and how Casca figures into it, I think I’ll call it a day.

I hope I’ve made a decent case for Guts’ feelings for Casca, both positive and hugely fucked up, being largely built out of redirected feelings for Griffith. Whatever the reasons for this - actual authorial intent, intended redirection of Guts’s platonic bro feelings but adding sex bc Casca’s a woman so it’s obligatory without realizing how gay that looks, me totally reading into a half-assed het subplot created for the sake of more Eclipse drama, whatever - this is earnestly how Guts’ relationship with Casca reads to me.

In the final part I’m going to conclude this epic adventure in homoeroticism with what is essentially a “why I ship them,” going into why I think it makes perfect sense, from both a character and a thematic perspective, for Guts to be sexually attracted to Griffith. Stay tuned.

shout out to @mastermistressofdesire bc we’ve had a few conversations about this subject and some of your ideas really helped me coalesce these thoughts. Ty!

Part Four

#griffguts #a #tbh this is so long that i think i've wasted some good observations by burying them in this monster lmao #i might cannibalize this thing a bit later on and repost some of these ideas so they're more easily accessible #this is late bc i had a headache last night and didn't feel like editing it #b #theme: love triangle #ship: gtsca #theme: repression #theme: heteronormativity #scene: hill of swords #ship: griffguts #character: guts #theme: parallels #character: judeau #character: casca

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whateverisbeautiful · 7 years

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Reveling in Richonne

#47: The "Even If" (7x5)

As much as 7x5 became a bit of a blur after the kiss of life lol, I still had just enough vision left to take note of one more Richonne moment in this episode. 😋 And it's the scene that follows, with Michonne and Carl.

(Side note: I know we're supposed to assume a lot of conversations between characters are had off camera, but this 7x5 scene is pretty much the first time we’re seeing Michonne and Carl really talk since Richonne became a thing 🙉 Again, I low key feel robbed that we haven’t gotten more scene with them post-canon lol. Here's to wishfully thinking hoping season 8 will give us some continued development of Carl and Michonne’s relationship. 🙏🏽)

So, Richonne is obviously relationship goals and I love that Michonne is definitely an admirable example of a wife. What her character depiction confirms is that you can be both an independent boss and a loving supportive wife. Like she has her stuff together and she can take care of business while simultaneously respecting her man and his leadership and decisions.

I say all this because this sentiment really comes through in Michonne’s talk with Carl, post-the kiss of life.

Side note: I feel like there's Richonne “pre-kiss of life” and “post-kiss of life” cuz, for me, that kiss took their relationship to a whole nother level lol.

But anyways, let me stop myself before I get off track and start going on about that kiss again, cuz I need to break this current scene down right quick. 😋 So our homie, Carl has two sides to me. Like he's either this good kid with a killer instinct, or he's this wildn kid with a killer instinct. Both are understandable considering the crazy world he’s had to grow up in. But, I must say, what I’ve noticed is that when Carl's in “wildn kid” mode he has a tendency to disapprove of and try his father. 🙉 So in this scene he's kind of in “wildn kid” mode and trying to see if Michonne also disagrees with Rick's "Submit to Negan" approach. I love that the first thing he asks tho is, “Why didn't you go with my dad?”. Like Rick and Michonne are such a package deal that it feels strange to other people for them to be separate.

Also I love that Michonne and Carl are in this house cuz it reminds me of when they were in that house in “Claimed” and they were just becoming family back then and now it’s pretty official. Michonne tells him she has to figure out how they can do this or if they can and that lets you know that while yes, she supports RIck and his decision, she is still trying to find some way to fight. Carl says “We can’t” which reminds me of when Michonne tells Rick those very words in 7x4. I’m telling you; like Step Mom, like Son lol. 😋

Carl feels like they can’t win if they do things Rick’s way. And I know Michonne understands where he’s coming from but she tells him, “Your dad thinks differently.” I appreciate this cuz it lets you know that, as much as everything in her says they have to fight back, she’s obviously really taken to heart what Rick thinks about the situation.

Hearing her say “your dad” stood out to me too cuz, what’s so different about this conversation than pre-canon conversations between Carl and Michonne, is that now Rick is not just Carl’s dad but Michonne’s husband lol. Like this just reminds you that they truly are even more of a family than before.

Carl responds to Michonne saying, “And he’s wrong. You know it”. And low key when he said this, I was like...

Carl tried it just a little bit, cuz even if Rick is wrong, that’s still his father so he has to put some respek on his name lol. But I know this was “wildn” Carl talking. 😋

And as Michonne lets this resonate it could appear she’s between a rock and a hard place. Does she voice her agreement with Carl that they shouldn’t just play along with Negan? Or does she pretend like she’s fully on board with Rick’s way of thinking? And just when you think maybe she doesn’t know what to say...she reminds us that, y’all, this is Michonne Grimes, she always be knowing just what to say lol. 👌🏽👸

So she responds with such a great line. She tells him “Even if I think he is...I don’t know.” It's a very powerful and wise statement. It’s also such a meaningful thing for her to say because, as strong as she feels, she has enough maturity to say she doesn’t know. She’s not blindly agreeing with Rick, nor stubbornly disagreeing. She’s acknowledging both sides and going out to get answers because she’s productive and a real one. 👌🏽👸

She doesn't feel like Rick's way is the way to go, but since she doesn't have the facts to know for sure, she’s choosing to remain open. She loves Rick and trusts his judgement and so she's willing to consider his side, which is why I love that “even if”. She's saying “Look, I'm not going to lie and say I think he's right, but I'm not going to just assume I'm right either.” She's wise enough to know that she doesn't know.

To me, that’s real wisdom. Like wisdom isn’t always having the answers, but rather being open to the fact that maybe you don’t have all the answer, and then going and seeking out the answers, as she’ll later do in 7x7.

This line is also such a perfect answer to give Carl because it accomplishes two things. It allows her to be honest and admit to having an inking that Rick’s way may be the wrong way, which is good cuz it allows her to honestly communicate with Carl and keep him in the loop so that it’s not like he's just some kid. He's still her friend too. And Michonne’s answer also sticks up for Rick and says, “I support your father and we do need to be cautious and consider that maybe we don't know everything”. Something Carl needs to do (and completely does not do, as his “wildn kid” side takes over and gets him singing songs in the Sanctuary 😑🙈). This line also reminds me of "The Distance" when Michonne tells Rick, “You know what you know and you're sure of it, but I'm not", in regards to Aaron and ASZ. Like this relationship is so healthy because R&M can have strong opinions while also acknowledging that they don't always have the answers.

Throughout the series, Michonne has had so many great lines that can be used as real life lessons. And this line to Carl is just such a great example of acknowledging that you’re not all-knowing or always right just cuz you think you are. So Michonne leads Carl by example in this moment and is both friend and mom. That's some healthy balance right there. 👌

🏽And you know Carl at least lets this resonate momentarily. I love that it's really only Michonne who can tame Carl's “wildn kid” side. (If only Michonne knew what Carl's plan for the day was 😑)

And I adore the last part of this scene, where Michonne's mommy mode does in fact take over lol. She heads out and reminds Carl to change his bandage and “be nice to Olivia”. It's such a cute mom/son moment and I was so here for it.

(Side note: I always find it such a funny parallel that Carl has his first low key awkward kiss with Enid in the same episode where Rick and Michonne have the greatest kiss of all time. 😋 )

So this scene is a Richonne scene cuz, even though Rick isn't in it, this is Michonne putting aside any pride to be a supportive wife and a good mom. And I know Rick would be appreciative of how she handled that situation with Carl. Rick's got himself a woman that is A1 wifey and mother material! 👌🏽👸

Michonne is only in like two and a half scenes in 7x5 but I love that these scenes are so memorable. It shows us loud and clear why Michonne is both an excellent wife and an excellent mother. 🏾😊

#twd #twdfamily #the walking dead #richonne #richonne family #richonne fandom #michonne #michonne grimes #carl grimes #rick grimes #grimes 2.0

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punchdrunkdoc · 7 years

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5x20 aka: Olicity heaven (with a bit of hell in the last 4 minutes)

It's official, season 5 of Arrow has started! It's a shame the season is so short (starting at 5x17 for some reason. Weird) but I'm enjoying it so far!

I'm only slightly kidding. There was very little about the previous 16 episodes of the show that remotely interested me, and I doubt I'll ever watch them in full; I saw all the 'best' parts in gif-form and short clips and that will do as far as I'm concerned. And you may think that disqualifies me from giving my opinion on the final 7 episodes of the season...but I'm going to anyway. Because what I have to say about 5x20 really only concerns one aspect of the show.

Olicity

This episode was amazing for us shippers. So many wonderful moments. And a few terrible ones as well, but I'll save them for last, lest I be accused of harshing people's buzz or being overly negative.

So first, the positives.

This is gonna be nothing groundbreaking. You've all seen the episode; you've posted and reblogged and tweeted the gifs, with all the appropriate accompanying squeeing. But let me break down my favs:

The flashback scenes were DELIGHTFUL!

(gif by @just-me-and-the-tv)

Tipsy Olicity was on my wish list for Arrow for ages (I ended up having to write my own scene to satisfy my desires) - its so clear that they're FRIENDS first and foremost. They enjoy spending time with each other, and basking in the other's actions and reactions.

The whole salmon ladder sequence was a joy, from Oliver's earnest teaching technique to Felicity's babbles, then the slooooowwww slide she took down Oliver's body, to her initiating the kiss...

(gif by @whoeveryoulovethemost)

And the kissing was uber-hot. I don't know if it's because we were deprived of new material and the old kissing gifs had become a bit too familiar, but man those kisses were on another level! You really felt how much they'd missed each other's lips. How much sinking into those kisses was like coming home; so familiar, but with a new edge of longing and tempered joy.

Perfectly captured in this moment, which was my favourite bit of the whole flashback:

(gifs by @ironstarkasm)

And when Oliver grabbed her and spun her around...I swear I gasped out loud thinking we were gonna see a whole 'nother dominant side to Oliver. But we ended up with Felicity on top again, which felt really fitting. The girl really likes the view from up there!

I loved the present day interactions as well; so much harsher and layered with new pain and frustration, but still with that unshakeable core of love and respect. The EW recap said it best:

THIS is the Arrow I love to watch. Characters working together, supporting each other, facing conflict drawn from their differing view of the world - not from contrived plot points and 'shock value' moments. And, most importantly, confiding in each other:

(gif by @felicitys)

This moment was heartbreaking, not least because to Oliver it was almost a deathbed confession. He NEEDED her to understand where he was coming from. It was imperative that she knew that his apparent lack of trust was not because of her. It was because of him.

The concept and execution of this confession was beautiful; the content...that will be in the negative section.

For now, more positives. I loved the tension and physicality of the bunker sequence. The stunts were incredible - and it was obvious why SA was hitting the gym hard in the lead up to filming. The dude was hauling EBR all over the shop. My absolute favourite moment was after Felicity injects Oliver with adrenaline. SA's comic timing and delivery (something we don't get nearly enough of) was on point! Why aren’t there a million gifs of this! I can watch this on a loop!

And after is slightly crazy-eyed ‘Good’, he just matter-of-factly Oliver pulled Felicity on to his back. He would carry her to the ends of the earth if need be.

And she would sacrifice herself so he wouldn't need to:

(gif by @felicitys)

Goddam, this is how you OTP!

Which is why...I'm kinda bummed the episode was brought down from potential 'best episode ever' status by some questionable writing choices that have more to do with other episodes rather than 5x20.

First up, the issue of break ups and apologies. Oliver has still not uttered the words 'I'm sorry for lying and sneaking behind your back' to Felicity. I know some people in this fandom feel his actions and his vows in the fake wedding were an apology of sorts, but its not enough for me. And I doubt we'll ever hear him apologise properly at this point.

Because the party line of the show has always been that the lies themselves were merely symptomatic of bigger issues: trust and judgement.

Trust

Felicity feels that Oliver doesn't trust her. Oliver explained that the problem was never with her, it was with him. This is the content of that scene I eluded to above, when Oliver confesses his secret. It just feels like a convoluted leap in logic to me. Oliver's convinced he enjoys killing..ergo Felicity feels he doesn't trust her.

Oliver likes killing = Oliver is bad = Oliver is not deserving of love and trust.

THIS logic I can understand (I don't agree with it, because Oliver is good and deserves all the happiness in the world), but I can see the thought progression. I don't understand how that equates to not being able to trust others.

Oliver likes killing = Oliver is bad = the team should not sacrifice their souls in his name = he doesn’t want Felicity going bad

Fine, this works for explaining his objections to Helix. But the scene after this confession immediately switched to the flashback where Felicity said:

(gif by @felicitys)

In the context of William, that explanation makes little sense.

Oliver likes killing = Oliver is bad = Oliver cannot trust himself = how can he trust others if he can't trust himself.

Maybe this is what they're getting at? Still feels a little flimsy. But that's Arrow-logic for you.

Judgement

When I first watched the scene in the hospital I was severely pissed that Felicity apologised (AGAIN) for the break up. In the flashback she apologised for walking instead of talking things out. This I can (grudgingly) understand.

But then she apologised for judging Oliver too harshly and holding him to a high standard she herself fell short of in S5. An understanding she gained by joining Helix.

Because joining Helix = morally questionable = difficult decision made for the right reasons, even if people get hurt = the same as lying to your fiancee about your secret son.

Okay, Arrow. Fine.

I'll accept your premise: Oliver didn’t tell Felicity about William because he enjoys killing and therefore doesn’t trust anyone...and Felicity broke up with him because she hadn’t yet joined Helix and therefore didn’t understand the difficult position lying points you in.

I give in.

It's done, you've addressed it (and retconned it to fit in nicely with your S5 arcs) and we should just move on. I’m willing to ignore all of that INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING AND INFURIATING MESS OF A STORYLINE and just look forward to the reconciliation.

And I will...after one last point, which is more to do with the S5 writing disaster.

It was explicitly stated in 5x20 that Felicity's motivations for joining Helix and going hard for Prometheus...was because of Billy. This just felt like Wendy finally getting the chance to put her head canon on screen after giving interview after interview explaining Billy as the motivation for Felicity’s ‘dark arc’. It doesn’t matter that, until now, Billy was barely mentioned, and it was much more obvious to the viewer that Felicity was gunning for Prometheus because of OLIVER.

I would have LOVED to have seen a moment like this:

Oliver: I know you joined Helix because you wanted justice for Billy-

Felicity: No. I mean, yes. Maybe that was the start of it. But, Oliver...what Prometheus did to YOU - the kidnapping, the torture, the mind games...I was doing all this just as much for you. You've suffered enough over the past 10 years. You've sacrificed for everyone you love, I couldn't bear to see you in any more pain. And if I could stop Prometheus - by whatever means - I was going to do it. For you.

But no. It was all for Billy. The guy we didn't even see her meet, or know when that was, or how their relationship started, or what she liked about him (apart from being bland and nice)...Despite the flimsiness of that character, HE was her driving force.

The Billy-of-it-all, also leads on to my next gripe.

I STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE POINT OF YOU, TINY-HANDS MAN!

Going into this episode, I posted some thoughts on the supposed intentions of the flashbacks, i.e. to explain the Olicity interactions in 5A. As I mentioned in that post, the success of 5x20 would depend on its ability to make sense of 5A....and I think it did the opposite. Don't get me wrong, I think the flashbacks worked, in terms of paralleling the present time (Felicity wasn't ready to talk, now she is; Felicity didn't understand why Oliver couldn't trust, now she does).

But they do NOT explain 5A. Because I still do not understand why Felicity was suddenly in an established relationship with another man. The flashbacks ended with Felicity basically saying she needed time before talking about the breakup, and Oliver said he would be waiting for her when she was ready. The only reason to bother talking about the reasons for the breakup would be to reunite! So this scene, to me, was Felicity very much leaving the door open to reconciliation.

Begin Rant:

Which makes her relationship with Billy (a handful of months later) so inexplicable! When/why/how did she decide she was just going to push aside her relationship with Oliver and try with someone else? And she KNEW he was waiting for her, so her incredulous ‘No!’ when he asked if she was keeping the door open for them in 5x05 was insensitive at best, when viewed in the context of 5x20.

Similarly, how does Oliver's 'I’m totally fine you’re seeing someone else’ make any sense given how they left things after Bunker!Sex:

He should have been PISSED! Because she never gave him the courtesy of telling him she was moving on. And waiting until she knew if it was 'real' is bullshit. The fact she started dating in the first place, even if only casually, was a MAJOR step that he deserved to know about.

I didn't understand 5x05 the first time, but figured Felicity wasn't obligated to tell Oliver anything because she firmly closed the door on him in 4x16. They were O.V.E.R.

But she opened that door during that flashback. And she knew Oliver was waiting on the doorstep.

So why did she sneak out the back door and start fooling around with a cop? IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE!

Plus this all gives credence to my assumption that 5x20 was never in the original plan. Otherwise, 5x05 would have been written differently, to incorporate the 5x20 FB dynamic better.

End rant.

So those are my thoughts.

Well done if you reached the end - I did ramble on a bit, but I needed to vent.

And it’s turned out to be therapeutic. I’ve since rewatched the ep after writing out all these grievances (and with my ‘giving in to the narrative’ frame of mindI) and it actually made the episode even more enjoyable! Arrow is never going to fix the mess they made, so I’m going with the out of sight, out of mind approach by just concentrating on the goodness to come.

Bring on the rest of the season!

#Arrow #Olicity #5x20 #my thoughts

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