#thrawn duology

[roninreverie]

Why Ahsoka's Thrawn isn't actually the real Thrawn

A theory by me, which I am going to be so annoying about for the foreseeable future, so let me just try to get most of it out of my system right here and now. 😅

---

So we all know by now that Thrawn is revving up to be the BIG BAD for the live action Star Wars series tying The Mandalorian into Ahsoka and working off of the Rebels finale.

I also remember hearing old rumors that they were going to be pulling a lot from legends lore for this show, and that Timothy Zahn was not really involved at all with the show itself. (Feel free to update me otherwise though.)

Now, the fact that they're calling him the "Heir to the Empire" in the teaser trailer is already a pretty decent confirmation that the legends lore nods are in full swing. So this raises red flags for Thrawn's character, who, as we know from the newer novels, has a bit more motivation to him than his legends counterpart, and while the two are not wholly dissimilar, there have been a few important updates to his character since the early 90's.

Not to mention, I've heard a lot of people saying "If Zahn isn't involved, it wouldn't really BE Thrawn, right?"

EXACTLY!

I have a very strong gut feeling that this Thrawn isn't actually going to be the Mitth'raw'nuruodo that we expect him to be, and here's why:

Evidence #1: The Beskar Spear

In Chapter 13 of Mando, we're introduced to Morgan Elsbeth who was apparently working so closely with Thrawn that Ahsoka Tano shows up to battle her and demand information on his wearabouts.

Do you really believe Grand Admiral Thrawn would think very highly of a woman who had tarnished the artistic craftsmanship and history of Mandalorian armor just to forge it into a spear?

Lest we forget how upset he got at Captain Slavin just for badmouthing Hera's kalikori in Rebels?

But Thrawn is a big-picture kind of guy, so swallowing his opinions on the dismissal to the value of art isn't necessarily out of character for him, and I'm not sure if they ever specified it was Elsbeth who had done the re-forging in the first place.

Moving on!

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Evidence #2 Legends Lore and Fake Thrawns

There have been many versions of Thrawn since his creation in Zahn’s original trilogy/duology series, but did you know that there have also been multiple Thrawns existing in the Star Wars Legends universe?

I won't go into too much detail, but considering the Empire tried to keep Thrawn at arms reach up until he earned his Admiral status, and then some… they had quite a few backup plans to make sure the Chiss stuck around even after his “supposed” death.

Between Moff Vilim Disra hiring a con-artist actor named Flim, to fake the role and trick the galaxy... or the literal clone(s) who were set on backup timers and programmed with all of Thrawn's memories just in case of the Admiral’s untimely demise... it’s not as wild an assumption as you might think that there could be a few faux Thrawn’s roaming about in new canon. 

And we have been getting a lot of interesting nods to clones lately in the Bad Batch, especially concerning Mount Tantiss and the planet Wayland/Weyland.

Just some food for thought.

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Evidence #3: Thrawn’s Death and Continuity

Though Legends and Canon Thrawn do have some similarities and ways to tie together their two universes, there have been updates to his story that cannot be ignored in the new canon, such as his inevitable death.

In legends, Thrawn was killed at the hands of his own Noghri bodyguard, Rukh, who was formally loyal to the Chiss until he learned that Thrawn had not been helping with the ecological disasters of his home planet as he'd promised, but instead had been purposefully keeping them present so that the Noghri people would remain indebted to the Empire. Discovering Thrawn's lies, Rukh stabs him through the chest in the ever-popular “it was so artistically done” scene, thus ending the deceitful Grand Admiral’s life in the old trilogy. 

Unfortunately for the latest iteration of Rukh, Garazeb Orrelios made sure that his new canon self's death was probably not the sort he would be able to get back up and brush off in a surprising twist down the road. 

This left the new-canon Thrawn without an assassin destined to carry out his death, and what many newer fans hoped would mean some sort of redemption arc, given the changes to the character since his reintroduction in Rebels.

I think it can also be stated that the newer version of Thrawn is a bit "kinder" for lack of a better word than his legend's self. Not enough to negate his antagonistic nature in Rebels of course, but maybe just not to the sinister degree as his past counterpart.

---

So in closing, I am going to be watching and taking notes, excited to see where this new "Thrawn" in the Ahsoka series, Mando, and heck... maybe even Bad Batch-- will play out.

I am going to be constantly thinking he's a fake until absolutely proven otherwise, hoping that the Thrawn I've spent all these years building up in my head is off saving the Chiss-Ascendancy with Ezra Bridger and Eli Vanto... and getting something of a redemption arc now that he's apart from the Empire.

Newer Thrawn never struck me as an irredeemable villain, especially in the novels, but I guess that's up to time to tell for sure?

I'm not going to let this theory ruin my expectations for the show and the character, of course, but I'll be super hype if this is the direction they've chosen to go with him.

Thanks for reading, if you did, and feel free to keep the discussion going in the replies/reblogs if you have anything to add!

[jedidryad]

Are you familiar with the name Jorj Car'das?

A ridiculous joke makes Karrde go pale and sends Mara's life off in a new and wholly unexpected direction

Lightsabers Are Always Loaded: Chapter 28

[ecoamerica]

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[figures4fun]

Emperor’s Hand, receiving orders

[sailforvalinor]

Skyjade didn’t perfectly utilize the “if we make it out of this alive will you marry me” trope for y’all to sleep on it like this, just saying

[shoulderholsterfreak]

Look, I know Eli is the Thrawn fandom’s darling, but he’s not Thrawn’s moral compass. Rebels making Thrawn out to be a genocidal maniac isn’t evidence of Eli’s being the only thing keeping him from becoming pure evil, it’s evidence of Filoni not giving a damn about writing Thrawn as anything other than a flat caricature of his worst moments in early legends.

[zeldurz-art]

I’ve been listening to the Hand of Thrawn Duology audiobooks, and I have a proposal...

[ecoamerica]

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[all-that-jazz-93]

Luke and Mara in the Hand of Thrawn books

[milfglupshitto]

hand of thrawn duology probably the funniest books I’ve ever read in my fucking life. we zigzag between:

the former second in command turned head of the military of a dying empire prepares to surrender, still wracked with guilt and grief from the fact that ten years ago his commander died only a few feet away from him and maybe he could have given this scrap-metal fleet a more noble end, made it something to believe in, and he knows that he’s doing the right thing and he’s trying so desperately to believe that, and then that commander is back from the dead and he didn’t know and he never told him about any backup plan but he really should have expected it and now he’s working with someone else and he is certain something isn’t right I mean he literally saw the light leave his eyes he watched him die he was just a few feet away but he wants so badly for something to believe in again that he’ll believe in “him” even if it means accepting that this really is the man he knew and he is choosing to leave him in the dark

and:

the con artist who has had extensive surgery and is being paid an unknown presumably outrageous amount of money to impersonate a ten-years-dead military commander for clout has been drinking a lot tonight and is now confident he could basically do this whole strategic genius act himself and his two fellow conspirators who came up with the whole charade are pausing their own argument to tell him he’s a fucking idiot

unparalleled media experience. I wish this is what the sequels were about god can you even imagine

[waterdeep]

the star wars audiobooks are just so so very good. the narration is generally really well-done, the sound effects and background music used... i Love them so much.

[myevilmouse]

One of the many fun aspects of reading Star Wars fanfic is figuring out from whence came the inspiration: EU (Legends) Canon, Clone Wars & Rebels (animated), Prequels, Sequels, Original Trilogy. I will offer up that I am from the Rebels camp, Clone Wars, and then I took the Thrawn Off-ramp, which led me to wander into EU/Legends. (I go where Thrawn takes me 🤣) all of this has taken place in the last 18 months.

Since I have dove heavily into one aspect of your catalogue - Thryce - I was initially under the impression that you may have come from the Rebels camp, too, but alas! An enormous portion of your writing includes Luke! Add to this, the most recent fic that I am reading of yours mixes both EU & Canon characters. Queries:

What are your Star Wars genre influences?

Where/when did you become interested in Star Wars

Which character do you like best (My guess was Luke)

Thank you!

Hello my friend @beebee-76 and thank you for this wonderful excuse to shriek about loving Star Wars this evening! This got very long, so let's go below the cut!

So the best way to start is with your second question, and I think you may enjoy reading a couple posts I made a while back, one about how long I’ve been in SW fandom:

and one about the experience I had as a young kid seeing Ep V in the theatre:

In summary, I grew up with Star Wars.  My family was a Star Wars family.  My brother had the Darth Vader action figure case, the bed sheets and bedspread (which I have now muwahaha) and stacks and stacks of Star Wars comics, the old ones, with He-Man Luke and all that late 70s madness.  I had the vinyl read-along storybooks

and all that.  My parents loved Star Wars too, my mom adored Han, and my sister wanted to be Princess Leia.  It was a family thing. 

So the where? At home.

The when is…as long as I can remember.

Next to your character ask, which absolutely you are correct ma’am, Luke Skywalker is my main squeeze. 

he's so gorgeous amirite

I love him so much it fills my chest with bubbly squee just to contemplate the extent of my adoration.  Luke Luke Luke.  He’s the hero!  He’s handsome!  He’s kind!  He looks soooooo good in black!  Nnnnggghhhh.

You know me primarily from Thrawn/Thryce fic, but Thrawn was never a huge interest of mine apart from being a good villain in The Thrawn  Trilogy.  I always LIKE the bad guys but I didn’t find him particularly sexy or anything. 

Evilmouse’s idea of a sexy bad guy is more typically like:

(pretty much anything combining naughty + Kiefer Sutherland)

It was fanfic, actually, that turned me on to the “new canon” Thrawn and I started with the 2017 book (which I read I think in 2019? Or late 2018) and then I -had- to see Rebels. 

My sisters’ kids went through a Rebels phase, they dressed up as Ezra and Sabine for Halloween, stuff like that.  I remember being like “Who?!  What?!” but I am the cool aunt, the one who knows more about Star Wars than they do in most respects, so they told me about the exploits of the Ghost crew and I sort of listened without understanding anything about the characters and I was the only person my nephew knew that he could talk to about Jacen and Ben and all was cool. This was before our man showed up in Season 3...

Therefore, after reading the Thrawn book, and before the other “new” Zahn books came out (which is a discussion for another day), I had to see what the cartoon had done with this intriguing character.

Which leads us to your first question, about my genre influences. 

First of all, as mentioned, I grew up with the OT.  The OT is the unchangeable, unalterable, untouchable and all others are subordinate to the OT (original theatrical release, natch) canon.  Also of course all the Ewok Adventures are canon and don’t you dare tell me Cindel isn’t real. 

(ahahah you can tell I’m old cause I just unironically wrote ‘natch’)

Second, the Thrawn Trilogy are the real sequels.  Forever and always.  When Heir to the Empire came out, everyone including my mom freaked out at the fact that Lucas had PERMITTED a continuation of his saga.  A continuation that felt real, true to the characters, and took us further into their galaxy and timeline where real growth and change had not made them unrecognizable, cynical caricatures of themselves, where love and kindness still triumphed, and we had a ‘hey the gang’s all here’ wonderful adventure against a worthy adversary.  So yeah, The Thrawn Trilogy comes second to the OT in ‘my canon’.

You can’t erase Jaina and Jacen or Anakin or Ben or MARA or WINTER or any of these wonderful characters that lived and breathed in that galaxy Zahn allowed us to experience anew.  They are and will forever be!

OK enough of that. 

I stuck with the EU books for quite a while.  I wanted to stay in that galaxy. I am one of the weird people who don’t absolutely hate the Jedi Academy books, mainly because I think when I read them I was like a vacuum just sucking up the worldbuilding and it’s SUCH a fabulous era for our hero.  As a Luke devotee, I both wanted him to find love but was jealous of any potential mates that were presented.  I remember when I finished Children of the Jedi and I was like…uh…ok so Luke’s found love but it’s suuuuuper weird and I’m not sure how I feel about that.

Things were fixed what felt like 100 years later with the return of Thrawn in the Hand of Thrawn Duology. Luke recognized his soulmate at last and all was right with the world (even though Zahn still sucks at writing romance, I forgive him cause he was good at so much else).

I read a LOT of the EU books.  A lot.  Tales from Jabba’s Palace was one of my faves and all of those became canon in my heart too.  God I love the Rancor Keeper’s Tale. 

Bless you Paul Brooke.

But the numerous books started to blur and real life started to prevent me from keeping up with them.  I eventually gave up I think with the gazillion Jedi Apprentice novels (I couldn’t keep up), although my mom was still reading them!  She’s a major fan, guys.  Major.  And then the prequels came out.

I like the prequels alright, and certainly what came after put their perceived failings into a kinder perspective.

Slight tangent: I admit to being annoyed sometimes by this need to make everything in the OT "make sense" and explain it in the prequels. Like... no. Why did Leia say she remembered her mother's face? Because when they wrote that scene they didn't know ANYTHING ABOUT LEIA'S MOM AND IT SERVED THE SCENE. I understand some people need to explain things for themselves, but as someone who is old and cranky, I dislike uh...I'm not thinking of the word cause it's late, but this need to explain things in the context of "canon" that was written long after the OT was perfected. I think that's backwards. It shouldn't be like "Oh Obi Wan let Vader strike him down because of X that happened in the new TV show" it should be "X is in the new TV show because Obi Wan let Vader strike him down." Does that make sense? Maybe not. I stop before I make less sense.

More genre influences...Rogue One is good.

Video games too, bear inclusion.  Star Wars video games have typically been more engaging to me than many of the books, and feel more authentic than some of the disjointed canon or EU out there.  Dark Forces, Jedi Knight and Jedi Outcast, Fallen Order, Battlefront II to this day is one of my fave SW stories EVER.  Del Meeko my beloved.

Hmmm….am I going off on another tangent?

So I guess here is the TL;DR because it’s already late how did this happen?!

For writing Luke Skywalker, I focus on the OT Luke and the EU Luke we find in Zahn’s books—that’s what informs my writing the most.  I am not immune to Stover’s Luke either.

For writing Thrawn, I focus on 2017 Thrawn and EU Thrawn, who I believe are not mutually exclusive.  I use Rebels Thrawn to inform my dialogue choices sometimes, and that voice mmmhmm thank you for the voice Lars. 

I tend to think of Rebels Thrawn as like…the kids version of EU Thrawn, if that makes sense?  Like he’s not entirely removed from the character but he certainly is different in many ways, mostly to simplify the good v evil aspect of the cartoon and be just incompetent enough as an antagonist that our heroes can always escape/save the day.

I don’t have a problem with him, but I think “my Thrawn” is more 2017 than anything else, since he’s most romantic version and I write primarily smut.  EU Thrawn has his sexy moments and definitely has an influence on my take, though.  Anytime I start thinking 2017 Thrawn is too heroic, EU Thrawn shows up to demonstrate what a bastard he really is. And he certainly has sexy bastard scenes sometimes….Anyway, I have written a couple fics where I consciously merge the two and those are some of my favorite fics.

Now I definitely have rambled too long, because this document says I’m at 1400 words so I thank you so much as always @beebee-76 for the distraction and the ask and am sending you happy thoughts and love this evening.

[mayhaps-a-blog]

You know one of the biggest differences I've noticed between the original trilogy books and the new Ahsoka show?

In the books, absolutely no one knew who the kriff Thrawn was.

Pellaeon's still adjusting to a new commander, who he follows loyally, but doesn't 100% trust until book 2. The Republic doesn't even learn his name until the end of book 1, and they're still debating whether he's an actual Grand Admiral or self-declared through book 2.

All of the Thrawn's threat - all of his menace to the New Republic, all of his weight as an antagonist - are discovered by the reader at the same time the characters are finding it out.

It's the perfect balance of showing and telling - we get to see Thrawn gain victories by being clever, with Pellaeon. We get to hear about how nervous he makes Karrde - a character we've learned is brilliant and menacing in his own right, and makes our heroes nervous, so how much more must Thrawn be? We get to see him make brilliant deductions and turn up just in the right place and the right time to corner our heroes, again and again.

The Sluis Van attack buildup was perfect - we keep hearing about from Pellaeon, hearing that Thrawn's planning an attack and Pellaeon himself is a bit skeptical, but it's coming, how's it going to work? What's going to happen? Meanwhile the mole miners were stolen, and there's this new cloaking field, and how's it all going to come together...?

And suddenly Han's there, with Luke and Lando, and Wedge, and we're waiting with baited breath because we know it's all about to fall apart but how are our brilliant heroes going to get out of this one?

It's an amazing buildup, fantastic suspense, and really brings home the different perspectives of the characters. And establishes Thrawn as an actual, major threat, that everyone should be worried about.

But then in Ahsoka, it's like they've skipped straight to the Duology, when everyone knows who Thrawn is because he almost conquered the New Republic. But he hasn't done that, in canon, so we're left wondering why everyone's supposed to be worried when, as far as we've seen, he couldn't even beat Phoenix Squadron.

Heck, setting aside our own out of character knowledge, it makes Xiono look right. Who cares about a single Imperial warlord with a single half-destroyed ship? What's this guy actually done?

We know - those of us who know his story. But it's not shown. Why should the characters think him a threat? Why should we?

After all, all we've seen of him is Rebels. And in Rebels... he lost.

[thrawns-babygirl]

Had a customer at work today with the absolute GALL to claim he is a bigger Thrawn fan than I am.

The audacity of this man to think he knows more about my husband than I do.

The absolute insolence of this man.

And just because he's read the hand of Thrawn duology and I haven't.

THE NERVE!!

He may have read the hand of Thrawn duology but I bet he doesn't go to sleep thinking about having his blue babies and being gently cradled in his strong arms.

Hasn't written over 10k words of fanfiction.

Do better.

(This predominantly a joke, I don't gauge how much of a fan someone is by how active they are in fandom, this guy is just a known jackass at the store I work in)

[starplusfourletters]

I read specter of the past (hand of thrawn book 1)

This turned into a liveblog srry

Me, reading the Thrawn trilogy: Okay obvi Mara/Luke is a slow burn

Me, skipping to the duology set 10 years later: GUYS YOU’RE LOSING DAYLIGHT

Oh no they have a passive aggressive “may the Force be with you” / “good luck” thing oh no I might ship it

Also the small existential crisis that ensues every time I remember Luke is (checks Wookieepedia) THIRTY-EIGHT YEARS OLD. I cannot picture Luke Skywalker a day over 22 I think my brain would explode [actively represses the sequel trilogy]

This book is absolutely crawling with badass female smugglers and I’m living for it

Oooh proto-convor! [two pages later] OH NO PROTO-CONVOR DEATH ☹

Mara Jade, Force sensitive specializing in precognition, former Emperor’s Hand, second-in-command of the most powerful information dealing organization in the galaxy: Runs into a wall and spends the rest of the book knocked out

Lando “Could I Please Get Back to My Day Job It Has Been Two Decades” Calrissian. Just let the man mine in unlikely places it’s all he’s ever wanted

I got way too happy about the implication that the Imperial whose name I've forgotten figured out the tractor beam thing. He solved Science! Good for he!

Loving how everyone’s opinion on Karrde is basically “nice guy; sus that he insists on getting paid, though.” Like yes this is still a capitalist economy and he runs a business with a large number of employees

We interrupt your space fantasy to bring you a “Chicken Fried” music video with clone sleeper agents

Okay everybody place your bets is Car’das a secret brother, secret father, or ex-boyfriend (hype for some Karrde backstory and realizing the extent to which my brain has decided he and Kaz Brekker are the same person is Extensive)

Legit starting to feel sorry for Gilead “Sad Fascist Grandpa” Pellaeon. Somebody give this guy a peace treaty and a hug. Also more and more irked about No Prisoners why did that need a retcon

Really enjoyed the book’s interrogation of the premise “how do we actually make a galactic organization that includes cultures with mutually exclusive legal and ethical codes WITHOUT being fascist.” Felt very Trek. Actually went further toward radical inclusivity than Trek usually does; the Federation does have an element of “you must be this close to 20th-21st century American values to ride” which is its own kind of cultural imperialism and in this essay I will -

I simply cannot get enough of these books’ “protagonist stumbles, Kramer-like, into the Site of Maximal Galactic Importance Du Jour.” I will let you know when it stops being funny to me. Also really like how the villains are starting to learn to use it to their advantage; like yeah it DOES look like a conspiracy when you think about it

[shoulderholsterfreak]

This is just the late night talking, but I miss legends!Chiss fandom. Everyone who hasn’t read stuff like the Thrawn duology or Survivor’s Quest is seriously missing out (and if you haven’t read Outbound Flight, are you REALLY engaging in the full Thrawn Experience?). Not to mention the fact that legends has some of the best Thrawn content out there.

[kanerallels]

So... what SW Legends stuff would you recommend? I've already started reading Heir to the Empire, if that helps?

Ooooh!! Okay Heir to the Empire is the PERFECT starting place, that's where I started too! (I think. I also vaguely remembering reading these Darth Bane books when I was younger, but I digress)

(edit: also, I am not an expert on Legends, so if anyone who knows it better would like to offer any other recs (in a respectful manner that doesn't involve talking about how much you hate the sequels) feel free to add to this post!)

Others that I would recommend would definitely depend on what era you're looking for, but most of the stuff I know is post Return of the Jedi. If it's not, I'll make sure you know! (I'm gonna put part of this under a cut, it got kinda long)

The Hand of Thrawn duology. It's set like ten years after Heir to the Empire, and wraps up the events of those books super well! Plus it has more Talon Karrde, who is my favorite background character ever. The first book is Specter of the Past, by Timothy Zahn!

If you're a Mace Windu fan, Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover was really good! It's set near the end of the Clone Wars, and is about a mission he went on to find his missing apprentice. It was fun to read from Mace's point of view, and see how he's actually a lot more caring than a lot of fans depict him. Also, he headbutts a shocking amount of people. Mace is not immune to the chaos gene that comes with being Force sensitive

Technically, these are kids books and I might only like them because nostaglia, but the Last of the Jedi series by Jude Watson is fun! It's set directly after Order 66, and follows a former Jedi who grew up with Anakin, and the escapades and hijinks he gets up to

The Rogue Squadron books by Michael A. Stackpole are pretty good, especially if you like fighter pilot shenanigans. Rogue Squadron is Wedge Antilles's elite squad of pilots, and the main character is Corran Horn, who is a former Corellian Security member (basically a cop) and gets into all KINDS of trouble. I've only technically read a couple of those books, and admittedly, I don't like them as much as their follow up series. But if you do enjoy these books, you should check out I, Jedi, by Michael A. Stackpole, which is about Corran in later life

The follow up series is the Wraith Squadron books by Aaron Allston. It's also about a squadron Wedge put together, but it's made up of washouts and rejects, and they end up as a black ops division. It's simultaneously really sad and some of the funniest Star Wars I've ever read, and there's a running joke about an Ewok lieutenant

I'm gonna recommend the Republic Commando series by Karen Traviss, but with a caveat. Karen Traviss, for some reason, seems to really, really hate the Jedi. And that is reflected in her writing, but it's almost worth it for the Mandalorians adopting clones and the TRAGEDY. This one is set during the end of the Clone War, through Order 66. It also does not end super satisfyingly, but it's weirdly good anyways. So it's really up to you whether or not you think you can handle the rampant loathing of Jedi

Uhhh let's see, what else. There are so so many Legends books. The Jedi Academy Trilogy by Kevin J Anderson isn't the best written, but it gives you a really good look at what Luke's new Jedi Order looks like as he's building (and also happens, timeline-wise, at the same time as I, Jedi)

I think those are the main ones I know well enough to recommend! In my experience, anything by Timothy Zahn or Aaron Allston is pretty good. Avoid Troy Denning at all cost-- he does not, in my experience, write stuff that is particularly admirable, and it can be kinda gross. If you end up with a particular character you like a lot who you're looking for more content of, there's a good chance there's more out there! Feel free to send me any other questions you have, and don't feel pressure to read all of it. No one can possibly be an expert on all of Star Wars, there's just. Way too much of it (of course that's not really gonna stop me from trying)