#veilguard discourse

[cacospirit]

people have been typing up a storm about Veilguard since day one and yet no one is talking about how making a game geared towards bisexuals and then putting a bunch of decisions in it is basically a hatecrime

[gloomygloworm]

Sure I'll toss my hat in the ring.

I'm kind of ambivalent about veilguard. It's my very first DA game I've ever played, I saw the companions everywhere after it hit the stores and the world looked beautiful and rich. My friends all love DA and they all MET through the DA Fandom years ago, so I wanted to engage in this new thing my friends loved!

It's a gorgeous game. The towns feel alive, the companions are funny and heartfelt and so different from each other.

The game feels fucking empty.

I really don't like that half the quests are just conversations. Why is speaking with the first warden a whole quest? I said maybe 3 things, he gets his ass handed to him by someone else (Dorian was it? I don't remember his name) and then u go wow cool thank god I'm not in jail! He's an idiot! And thats... it lol.

I've had to learn about the world through my friends giving me context from previous games. Some of the codex entries are weird, I really hate how alienating it feels to be rook. I don't get to join bookclub, I have to install a mod to make additions to the grocery list, it feels so rare that you actually get to engage the companions at the lighthouse during "rest" time.

I've been playing an elf mage - a (very smart in my hc) veil jumper, yet I'm relegated to "guy who hits artifacts with a rock to make them stop" and Ballara is constantly explaining jumper stuff to me that I should already know.

The weird "project" thing u decorate ur room with. U use that to establish (imo) natural talent and how studious you are, but the game never does anything with that. Half the flirt options in dialogue are things I would say to anyone I consider a friend, or was giving heartfelt support to. None of it feels very flirty. I'm sad I can't request kisses from romanced companions like you can in baldurs gate 3, it feels like such a small mechanic but I never take it for granted. I loved kissing my romanced companion good morning and good night.

Most of the quests feel really short and unfulfilling. The fight style is fun but all I'm doing is short lived fights that make my attention wander. Most of the gear you just find, I find the shopping experiences at vendors boring, but I do like the decorations. I kind of wish we had more decorating space tbh!

I like the game for what it is, but I'm happy I got it on sale cause I would never pay full price for it. I haven't technically finished the game yet cause I keep restarting (lot of rook ideas) but if I had to play it without mods again I just wouldn't have fun. It just stinks that it feels like rook doesn't even have to be around to move the plot. Everyone else has connections and rook is just making decisions the others don't want to make. Like I genuinely don't think rooks presence should have done jack shit during the dragon attacks? I get the politics of what was going on in minrathus but if that was going to happen rook being there shouldn't change the tide at all.

I'm just one guy. I feel like Treviso should have been hit more even when I help them because again, I'm just one guy. They just don't really give any explanation on why rook is good for the job imo, yeah yeah "unpredictable and doesn't know when to quit!" That's fun but they don't really engage with that for rook? We all get good gear, we all level our abilities, i hold everyone hands while they go through their personal quests, but what makes rook actually able to do this? Just sheer determination?

Like why aren't I even involved in breaking the hold elgernan has during the venatori conference with the Dalish prisoners? I just feel like as rook i don't do fucking anything at all? Most conversation I'm involved in happens without player input. There's not a lot of actual choices in the game. It feels like they could have added 30 more quests at least.

Idk. Thank god for modders (not the ones whitewashing I hope you all die in incredible pain, everyone who downloaded them too.)

Game just feels kinda empty. I'm glad I didn't pay full price for it.

[nucleos]

if you are complaining about dragon age veilguards artstyle being inconsistent with dragon age's overall artstyle then I know for a fact, that you have not played all the games. You are lying, because consistency?? in dragon age?? this is Alistar in all three games

[vigilskept]

this whole idea in both the fandom and the games themselves that being a people attached to their past & a lost civilization is a failing whereas a celebration of the present is something to strive for wrt elven & dwarven culture is something that reads as fundamentally western & liberal to me.

[acquired-elfroot]

The annoying thing is that reducing Solas to a dislikable two dimensional caricature in Veilguard didn't even come close to fixing the problem they set out to fix in doing so, and it was never going to.

I can’t pull up the exact quote, but I believe one of the writing team said something along the lines that they needed to make Solas less sympathetic because at the end of Trespasser too many people agreed with him and wanted to end the world. Which is why they chose to have him kill Varric, among other things. 

While I will say that I agree with the choice to have him kill Varric(I like the idea of him making Rook hallucinate him too, that could have been sweet if it had been well executed rather than a bland set up for a M. Night Shyamalan level twist) to raise the stakes and set Solas up as a serious antagonist for a new audience, or an audience that hadn’t been paying particularly close attention to him - but there is no way it could have ever suddenly made his goal to tear down the veil unsympathetic for those who found it to be so.

The writers seem to have been under the impression that members of the audience sympathised with Solas’ plan to tear down the veil not on its own merits, but for the draw of his sparkling personality alone. Not for well established lore related reasons, or for extra-narrative reasons rooted in a desire for emotional catharsis and narrative satisfaction (which a fictional body count has even less bearing on besides) but because he’s a sad pretty elf boi and we want to kiss it all better.

I’m going to be real with you, if they had surgically transplanted Ogrehn’s personality onto Solas and had him stone cold murder every other beloved character in the series, I would still want the  Veil to come down, or at the very least a better solution than leaving it just as it is. How likeable he is or isn’t has fuck all to do with it? 

Making Solas more dislikable does nothing to change the effect the Veil has on spirits and mages, it does nothing to address the question of the value of mortal lives weighted against immortal ones. It does not change the narrative role of a trickster in bringing enlivening chaos and upheaval to a stagnating world, in this case one that’s been forced to stagnate in service of the illusion of player choice; nor does it quiet our desire to see the rotten roots of Thedas’ corrupt institutions torn up and put to the torch ect. ect.

Most annoyingly, attempting to use Varric's death to accomplish this betrays the writer's assumption that players that did sympathise with Solas’ goals did so out of a naive misapprehension that he’s some sweet uwu softboy that could never do anything truly ruthless or cruel in order to accomplish his goals, and that once we had been disabused of that belief we would clutch our pearls in horror(you mean he’s willing to kill people? In a video game series with protagonists that each have kill counts numbering in the thousands? Quick, summon my fainting couch!) and tidily dismiss the notion that he might have ever had any worthwhile motivations at all. 

Look all you silly little girlies that want to kiss the fictional man, I feel like you don’t understand that he’s the *bad guy* here, glad we’ve cleared that up for you sweetheart. And isn’t he just sooo condescending?

It does not seem to have occurred to the writers that, to his fans, his stone cold ruthlessness is both one of the most well understood and deeply compelling features of the character.

I would happily give that writer a pass on a wicked case of foot in mouth, but the way Anaris & Cyran are written seems to very much enforce their the stance that an overabundance of sympathy for Solas as a person, as well as a desire to see him vindicated are the primary reasons any of the audience would ever agree with his goals. 

So to fix this issue, it stands to reason that the writers needed to de-emphasise everything that humanised(for lack of a better term) Solas and made him sympathetic as a person. Because apparently the problem is that their attempts to do so in the previous game worked a little too well on some people, right? 

As @mythalism pointed out, we cannot see him comfort his friends through their panic or grief or their crisis of faith, or have hushed philosophical conversations with them. We cannot see him flirt awkwardly, or try to pretend he didn’t just set his own coattails on fire.

We never see the god of liberation free so much as a wisp bound to a teaspoon.

And all of those compelling character motivations you thought he had about free will and self determination? Don’t worry kitten, we’ve sanitised all of the conflicts those might be applicable to right out of the setting anyway. Yay <3

At the same time, it feels like they’re too scared to upset the very same audience that they imagine has this woobified rose tinted view of the character, lest they scare them away. They’re too afraid of the audience to let him be truly unwaveringly ruthless, prejudiced, bitchy, vindictive, and even genuinely sadistic towards his enemies, because that might upset our fragile sensibilities too much! 

He can’t ever say anything mean to Rook - that might hurt our feelings!

He doesn’t really do anything bad, and if he does he doesn’t really mean it. He committed war crimes, but only because Mythal asked him nicely. He killed Varric, but it was an accident. He makes Rook hallucinate Varric, but he doesn’t use that to manipulate them; Varric just hangs out and vibes. He uses blood magic on you, but he doesn’t do any of the truly fucked up violating things that we know full well blood magic is capable of. He misleads you when he says “the Veil will not fall by my hand”, but it’s so transparent that it’s laughable. He’s never allowed the conviction to really follow through on any of his misdeeds, while still he’s bizarrely framed as outright villainous for them. 

So what we’re left with is a character divested of most of his admirable qualities, but with most of the rough edges filed off as well. Toothless. Boring.

It feels so much like they’re talking down to their audience? Like they don’t trust us to see a character with BOTH vices and virtues in spades come to our own conclusions about them? 

So we get this bland mealy-mouthed version of the character that we apparently need watered down further with ‘our team’s’ insipid commentary, much of which is blatantly based on bad takes people were spewing online almost a decade ago, and many of which have no bearing whatsoever on the actual story we’re being told because ohh my godd apparently we need to have our hands held while we’re walked though every opinion the audience might theoretically  have about the character and gently reassured by proxy that it’s a hashtag #valid opinion and why does this game insist on speaking to us like we’re morons??

For all that they incessantly bring up how condescending Solas is, I’m not sure if I've ever felt more spoken down to by a story I had been so invested in.

So Solas is boring now and I still l wanna tear down the veil lol

[watcherintheweyr]

I can't believe I'm writing this

To open up with: IT IS ABSOLUTELY OKAY AND VALID TO BE DISAPPOINTED BY THE LACK OF WORLDSTATE CUSTOMIZATION IN DRAGON AGE THE VEILGUARD. I have my own disappointments about it!

Ok? We have that covered? We good?

Cool, moving on.

To people who are genuinely, hatefully angry, saying we will now be 'forced into Bioware's worldstate' (when this year alone they've stated there is no 'canon' worldstate more than once), or saying that none of our prior dragon age choices matter, I need you to take a step back and walk with me for a second, okay?

For starters: John Epler stated that one of the reasons they narrowed the choices is because they DO NOT want to invalidate the worldstates of their longtime players. However they also don't want to alienate newer players who don't have the history and lore of the past choices. It's a narrow line to walk.

Secondly, I want you to really look at the choices made by your Hero, Champion, and Inquisitor. Which of those choices genuinely affected NORTHERN Thedas, not Southern Thedas, to the point it would linger for years afterwards? Which of those choices weren't things that specifically affected or altered the sociopolitical Southern Thedas climate and landscape in lasting ways?

The Well? Kieran?

That only leaves that if your Inquisitor drank, they now have knowledge from ages long past... that Rook doesn't need. Rook has a direct line into Solas' history and a possible Veiljumper background, unlocking those very secrets on their own.

It's entirely likely and probable that the Well's fears and threats were a red herring. Think about it. We as a gandom have spent TEN YEARS worrying about the Well, about Solas, about Mythal.

Come June 2024, we're slapped in the face by the big bads of Ghilan'nain and Elgar'nan.

Morrigan likely isn't going to be close and friendly with Rook- so there's likely not much reason for her to tell us about her child or husband if she has them.

The rulers of Southern Thedas aren't going to affect us. We aren't tackling the current world ending crisis from the position of a leader of armies like the Warden and Inquisitor, but as leader of a small task force. The Southern Divine doesn't much affect us either- nor do Southern mage politics or templar politics.

Because Rook is an entirely new perspective.

Because Rook is in an ENTIRELY different sociopolitical climate/landscape.

I DO think there should've been ways implemented to specify your Inquisitor's bonds and personality. I'm HOPING maybe there still are that we haven't seen. But otherwise?

My Warden is free. I can say she's cured her Calling and is wandering the world with Zevran.

My Champion can retire into total obscurity with his husband or be quietly helping said husband destroy the slave trade. Either way.

Your history and choices in Thedas still matter. Your heroes still matter.

They just aren't Rook's focus.

Take a breath please. And stop sending death threats to the devs bc what the **fuck.**

EDIT:

further context from the devs on Bluesky

[roro-the-sleepy-monster]

Not to paint a target on my back, but some of you all act like Lucanis is straight and it shows.

[strawberry-halla]

‘drop em and rebuild the empire, phwaar!!!’

oh sera you read solas like a book

[incorrectdragonage]

Solas: (conducting his ritual) What would you do, Varric? Varric: I'd contact local elves. Then I'd use a different way of working out— Solas: (sarcastic) Oh, the old "different way" method! I didn't think of that!

[hyperions-light]

every single time i replay the beginning of VG I get more fascinated by that part where Solas tells Rook to apologize to Varric for him

liiiiike

you could interpret that only a manipulation, but i think it's more interesting if it's not, entirely

and I think he IS sorry

(not enough he wouldn't do it again, but)

But assuming he wasn't just manipulating Rook that's SUCH a wild thing to do oh my god.... he's asking Rook to apologize to the illusion of a man he killed that he's reconstructed out of (presumably) memory and Rook's desire for Varric to be alive

(and maybe his own)

he just feels so guilty he wants to pretend that doing that means something

it's like he's doing a little imaginary conversation with himself

reminds me of that thing Bel says during her first quest

The "[maybe then I'll feel] That he forgives me. And that I deserve it."

and then the Varric-figment doesn't even really accept his apology?? so is it like that it's more of what Rook thinks Varric was like, or that Solas wants to be true to what he thinks Varric would say, or like?? he is using the Varric-thing to talk about his own flaws???

it's such an interesting little interaction i always get obsessed with it

[rookamell]

'Lucanis is a planner!' and yet every time my Rook is like 'we don't have time to plan we need to act' it's him and Harding with the little Approves icons... just saying...

[gloomygloworm]

hi i'm here to cause more problems in the fandom!

ive seen some posts recently talking about "why the hell do people WANT to see slavery in veilguard, why are they so obsessed with oppression?" and i can answer this, as a brand new member of the fandom!

cause i had no fucking idea that elves were considered second class citizens until my friends told me!

i had no idea that the crows were so severely flawed, or that the antaam were proud warriors (other than canon fodder,) or that minrathous and tevinter as a whole had this huge problem with slavery.

i just yesterday after doing research into other games discovered alienages, about the dales, about who andraste was and who shartan was. because even reading the codex entries the game seems to fail to make any general connection to all previous games and the world they crafted at all! what the fuck is the chant of light? whats the major religion? what IS andrasteism? what do you mean the crows buy children and torture them - what do you mean they arent just exaggerated circus clowns that kill people? i get it, part of it is perspective. but you'd think dock town - a VERY POOR section of minrathous, would have an alienage? that we'd see more elves doing menial labor or trailing behind nobles as slaves?

also i keep hearing shit about the viper being the pope? or tarquin? where the hell is this info? quite frankly the game doesnt make the codex tempting enough for me to want to 100% it (ESPECIALLY finding out about this terrible "secret ending" that makes me fear picking up ANY MORE codex entries since i already have 2 out of the 3 you need to get it???)

the obsession with slavery isnt because i want to be oppressed, if i wanted that all i have to do is go be in public because im both queer and disabled living in a red state. its about what THEYYYYY the GAME CREATORS put in their own game. slavery! which now, despite how RAMPANT it supposedly is, i have no clue about! i only know about half the shit i do because my friends have been in the fandom a decade and im playing through origins now with them. which, btw, whoa what a game! not afraid to be icy and bitchy and HARSH in an environment where they cultivated that exact reaction.

i like the scenery in veilguard. i like the amount of mingling npcs in locations that make it feel more full, i like the soundtrack and the graphics and the companions as characters. i dont like the story! i dont like the lack of environmental storytelling or the discrepancies in information that i feel like i should know. it feels like its taken the same landslide that pokemon has - going from being called a loser by Gary to having no less than 3 best friends at any given time. There's such a lack of conflict like the game is scared to express the spectrum of emotions and personalities that people deal with day to day. i like my escapism the same as anyone else but if im walking through a city known for treating elves like second class citizens no i wont be surprised if im called a "knife ear" casually by some drunk moron who cant even stand straight.

no ones looking to be oppressed. we're looking for what you advertised to people ages ago - a complex story with serious consequences for the actions of others!

[faewrenbird]

Rant Incoming:

TW// acephobia

The acephobia surrounding Lucanis now isn’t surprising, but damn I am so tired

God forbid a character isn’t made to cater to the audience at large, huh?

Ace people clearly aren’t “in reality,” or “living.” Oh, and we’re clearly not “ordinary,” right?

The entitlement some people have is truly staggering. Lucanis’s writer confirmed that he was written to be a demisexual/demiromantic virgin. If something about his character and/or romance dissuades you from liking him, then consider that he’s not the right romance option for you OR go to AO3 and dunk yourself in fanfics where he’s the epitome of the Spanish Lover™️ trope.

The issue here is a player wanting to project onto Rook and being upset that their Rook doesn’t get the attention or romance that they personally want. Which, fine, we can’t help what we feel. But this isn’t the writers’ fault (this poster was in damn near every one of Mary Kirby’s posts complaining about Lucanis not being passionate and etc.) And it’s not an excuse to express wanting to take representation away from a group for which representation was purposely given.

*To be clear, I’m not commenting on the substance of his romance or number of lines or on the Neve/Lucanis vs Rook/Lucanis debate

I’m speaking specifically to the acephobia that has emerged after learning that he is, indeed, demi, something that ace people suspected already and related to

Let us have this

[thepromiscuousfinger]

[roykentschesthair]

As a demisexual person myself I need ya’ll to understand that sexual attraction and sexual arousal are NOT the same thing.

I also need you to understand that lacking romantic experience and lacking sexual experience are NOT the same thing.

Do I think a virgin demisexual Lucanis is a perfectly valid interpretation of the character? Sure!

Do I think he was intentionally written that way while being described and promoted in the lead up to the drop of the game as anything but?

No. No I don’t.

I think Mary Kirby was seeing a LOT of totally valid criticism of his writing and romance and locked onto something that wasn’t intentionally written to avoid that critique and I think that SUCKS.

I think it’s also important to remember that Corinne was specifically asked if any of our companions were asexual and explicitly replied no, but that they’d love to do it in future games. Demi is a part of the ace spectrum. Regardless of headcannon, Lucanis is not and was never intended to be explicit representation

[roguerambles]

Anyway, I love Dragon Age the Veilguard--

Don't get me wrong, it's not flawless. But I definitely think the people insisting its god awful are being way, way too harsh. And considering the troubled 10 year long production and the game being rebooted like what, 3 times? I'm happy with the end result.

I think once the dust has settled a bit Veilguard will benefit from the "Dragon Age 2" effect - a lot of people hated DA2 when it first came out for not being like Origins, but after a while looked back and appreciated the game's strengths more.

I love the companions, I love the environments, I love the Solas storyline (and this is coming from someone who was kinda meh on him in Inquisition) Act 3 ripped my heart out in the best way possible. I love how the game answers a lot of lore questions while also setting up some interesting new developments (the Blight? The Qunari? Those from Across the Sea? Very interested to see where that goes in the future)

Seeing some of the cut content I'm a little disappointed at some of what we lost along the way (although I'd wager that's more EA's interference than a choice on Bioware's part) and some of the present day lore could have been better explained (the explanation for the Antaam breaking away from the Qun should not have been regulated to a Codex entry) but overall I'm very excited to see what the future holds for Dragon Age.

Now excuse me, I'm off to begin another Veilguard playthrough--