#(i mean this isn't anti arya but...)

[queenaryastark]

With the latest "Arya is ugly! I don't care how the author describes her!" drama, I have to wonder, does this happen in other fandoms? Do antis insist that canon is false just because they don't like it?

I mean seriously, are there people who say that Frodo isn't a Hobbit because ... you can still be "good and interesting" without being a Hobbit? Or people who say that Éowyn was ugly and never married nor had a child because ... she wields a weapon and women who do that are ugly and unable to get married?

Because Arya's canon traits, skills, story, and even physical appearance are constantly disputed in this fandom even though canon quotes can and HAVE been produced to contradict the anti-Arya sentiments.

Arya can't be pretty (despite the mountain of quotes calling her that) because... her haters want her to be ugly. Arya can't be intelligent with leadership qualities (despite the actual books full of evidence) because... her haters want her to be stupid. Arya can't be kind, sensitive, and empathetic (again, despite the actual books full of evidence) because... her haters want her to be a one-dimensional sidekick.

This trend is honestly insane. I hope this is only an ASOIAF thing.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

If Nettles was white, she would be as popular as Lyanna, Brienne or Arya, and y’all know it.

She grew up a homeless orphan (which is why it’s so insulting when people try to act like she’s a freaking idiot who doesn’t know how to bathe herself yet she can tame a dragon🤦🏽‍♀️ Put most of the highborn women in her position and they wouldn’t survive a day in her shoes).

She’s the only known non-Valyrian dragonrider who claims a wild dragon. A prince who believes in Valyrian supremacy falls in love with her to the point where he’s willing to sacrifice his life for her. Nettles singlehandedly disproves the whole idea of Targaryen exceptionalism and their blood purity. She slowly earns a dragon’s trust by bringing him sheep, and gradually he lets her closer, and then forms the dragonrider bond and lets her fly. up until this point, nobody had tried a strategy like that before.

Nettles is self-made. She’s self-taught. She’s loved for herself. She survives a freaking war and becomes a fire goddess/witch. Who wouldn’t want her ? Who wouldn’t want to be her ? Unlike Rhaenyra and Alicent, she’s the final girl of F&B.

Once again, I don't understand where you got that I'm anti Nettles? I'm anti Nettles x Daemon, but other than that theory, I very much am a fan of Nettles as a character. I won't say that there isn't racism and unfairness that happen regarding Nettles' character (though I haven't seen it personally), because people can be really shitty. But me personally, again, I'm not anti Nettles, I just dislike certain groups of her stans.

Again, I don't deny that Nettles was a strong woman. She endured many things most characters in F&B don't and most likely survived the Dance. However, I do disagree with some of the ideas you're stating as fact.

For starters, we don't know if Nettles is non-Valyrian; that's one of the many theories surrounding her, but it's not confirmed, so stating it as fact is misleading. Just because she lacks traditional Valyrian features doesn't means she isn't a dragonseed.

Jace and his brothers don't look Valyrian but they very obviously are of Valyrian descent. Rhaenys, the queen who never was, had black hair; Duncan the son of Aegon V looked like his mother, Betha Blackwood; Aegor Rivers also had black hair; Baelor Breakspear had dark hair; Daeron son of Maekar had sandy brown hair; Rhaenys the daughter of Rhaegar had her mother, Elia Martell's features.

Moving on, Daemon's relationship with Nettles is ambiguous. We don't know if they were in a romantic relationship or if his attack on Aemond was purely to save her (though I'm sure that was part of his decision). Again, you are stating a theory you believe as fact, even though it's unconfirmed.

I'm not going to touch the whole thing of Targaryen exceptionalism, because, as I said earlier, Nettles' parentage is unconfirmed. But the whole blood purity thing still hasn't been disproven at any point of GRRM's works; they intermarried to preserve their magic blood, the magic blood still exists in ASOIAF due to the incest.

Nettles is an important character in the story of the Dance, but she isn't the "final girl" you claim she is, let alone of the whole book. There are several dragon riders who survived the Dance and thrived. Rhaena is the ancestor of the Tyrells in the main series. Aegon III is the ancestor of Daenerys, the Baratheons, any remaining Blackfyres, and possibly Jon Snow and Young Griff. Baela and Alyn are the ancestors of Aurane Waters and the Velaryons.

The book of F&B is so much more than the Dance of the Dragons. Saying that Nettles is the "final girl" of the book doesn't make any sense when she only appears in a few sections. That's like saying Alys Rivers is actually the main character of the book. Nettles disappears after the Dance and doesn't appear in any other event. She does nothing else after her disappearance and has relatively little impact on the history of Westeros post Dance.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the whole "fire goddess/witch" thing. However, you have already been throwing out theories and your personal biases as fact, so I don't think it matters. I'm not trying to control who your fav is, I totally understand wanting to be a certain book character. But that doesn't mean you can act like everyone else is wrong for not having the same fav as you.

It's that kind of entitlement, thinking you're better than everyone else that makes people not like Nettles stans. It's almost on par with stansas and Alicent stans. People like you project so hard onto your favs, you take any perceived insult, critique, or argument as a personal attack. It's exhausting interacting with people like you.

[fromtheseventhhell]

Sansa and Alicent stans acting like people dislike them because they're feminine, when ninety percent of all Westeros women dress and act feminine, in fact it's a cultural and societal requirement expected of Westeros noblewomen. If the fandom has no problem with the rest of the traditionally feminine characters but hates Alicent and Sansa, then femininity isn't the problem here.

Also, and I can't stress this enough, not everybody in this fandom is constantly sorting female characters into "masculine" and "feminine" categories. It's incredibly misogynistic to do so and ignores that they're fleshed-out, complex characters. The majority of Dany, Arya, Cersei, Brienne, Rhaenyra, etc stans don't consider them to be masculine, that's just something their antis came up with to portray them as "lesser" female characters. When this fandom talks about "femininity" they mean it in a patriarchal context and, shockingly, there are some of us who can enjoy their characters outside of misogynistic standards. No one dislikes Alicent or Sansa for being feminine, because that isn't their only character trait (and only their "fans" think it is). Now if you want to talk about the traditional standards they hold as a byproduct of adhering to traditional feminity, that's another thing. But saying that people dislike Alicent's misogyny towards Rhaenyra or Sansa's classism towards Arya because they're "feminine" is just hilarious.

[sayruq]

What’s the deal with Arya fans pretending Sansa stans are the ones who like to downplay Arya’s suffering as if it wasn’t the other way around? They project so much, it’s unbelievable. They say we claim Arya looks down on traditional femininity. I can only speak for myself, but I’ve read lots of metas written by Sansa stans that acknowledge Arya respects women in general. That’s why I hate the way so many people condescendingly write post saying that “it’s okay to love both sisters” “you don’t have to put the other down just to prop your fave up”. As if both sisters receive the same amount of hate. Well, I think it’s also okay to NOT love both sisters and have a favorite one. I hate how many bloggers pretend to like Sansa when they obviously don’t (sansabuts) and pretend Arya is not a extremely loved and popular character (there’s nothing wrong with that) and Sansa is not a controversial one, that many people love, but it’s still misunderstood by lots of readers as a shallow, selfish and weak girl. It’s just so mean spirited.

What’s the deal with Arya fans pretending Sansa stans are the ones who like to downplay Arya’s suffering as if it wasn’t the other way around?

They want to be us so badly it makes them look stupid.

There's over a decade of metas on why

people shouldn't downplay Sansa's suffering

people should respect and appreciate Sansa's strengths including her intelligence, charm, wit, resilience, etc

people should understand that being feminine isn't bad at all even in a fantasy book.

etc etc

Arya stans just copy and paste and then point the finger at us ☠️.

The meanest things I've seen Sansa stans say regularly is #shipgirl or making fun of Arya for not knowing sigils.

Arya stans will wake up and say the most misogynistic thing you've ever heard in your life. The kind of shit that would make a 4chan incel blush.

I hate how many bloggers pretend to like Sansa when they obviously don’t (sansabuts) and pretend Arya is not a extremely loved and popular character (there’s nothing wrong with that) and Sansa is not a controversial one, that many people love, but it’s still misunderstood by lots of readers as a shallow, selfish and weak girl. It’s just so mean spirited.

I think a big reason those stans have been so pissed off the past couple of years is because Sansa is no longer the controversial character. She's fairly popular these days among book readers. It's no longer commonplace for people to sprout hate towards her (outside of certain fanbases). People like her and people appreciate her the way they didn't in the 90s and 2000s. It helps that the show indicated where Sansa will end up - on the Northern throne after returning to Winterfell and playing a key role in defeating the Boltons (Ramsay or Roose, take your pick).

Sansa is no longer in Arya's shadow, she's not the 'irrelevant' Stark. She has her own fierce fandom. She clearly has an exciting story in the next two books. She's arguably the one who won the Game of Thrones. All those theories about Sansa marrying the Hound and disappearing from the story or Sansa staying in the Vale no longer read like viable theories but antis coping.

[esther-dot]

"You are Arya of Winterfell, daughter of the North. You told me you could be strong. You have the wolf blood in you." (Arya X ASOS)

The old gods legitimately spoke to Arya using Ned's voice in order to give her strength to leave Harrenhal. So the gods of the North is using the former Lord of Winterfell's voice while calling Arya a "daughter of the North" apparently means nothing ? Seriously though, if Sansa had a similar scene Stansas would never shut up about it and claim it's proof for Sansa ruling the North, but apparently when it's Arya it means nothing ? Typical. Just how Arya naming her direwolf after a queen and said direwolf is leading a huge pack of wolves also means nothing even though we know the direwolves names are foreshadowing for their owners, means nothing as well. And this isn't even accounting the fact that Arya fits Varys' ideal ruler speech, and all of the other rulership/queen foreshadowing Arya has which is way more than what Sansa has. Arya has also expressed wanting to build castles, is the current Lady of Winterfell by proxy, has enacted Northern Justice, has offered protection and food to a man of the Night's Watch, and has major themes of mercy, justice, and service/humility, which are all essential to being a good ruler. Stansas could only dream that Sansa had all of this, but she doesn't, and I think GRRM has put so much in Sansa's way of ever ruling the North that it has to mean something. So unless Sansa jumps through twenty complicated hoops and changes who she is fundamentally than it's highly unlikely she'll ever rule the North.

(about this ask)

"I think GRRM has put so much in Sansa's way of ever ruling the North...."

Let's sit and think about this for a moment. LF, the evil mastermind, is currently scheming how to retake Winterfell with Sansa, is working to get her the great fighting force of the KotV, and you're telling me that Martin is placing obstacles in Sansa's path re: getting North/ruling it? We have a character who has successfully schemed his way from nothing to positions of great power working to install Sansa as leader of the North and you want me to believe there's nothing to indicate she's gonna be in a position of power? We have a prophecy about Sansa slapping LF's head on Winterfell's Wall, so we know the girl goes North, we know she out-maneuvers that bastard, and you're telling me that's Martin's way of indicating it’s impossible for her to end up ruling the North?

I deliberately didn't use general tags on my other posts because I know y'all screenshot anything in the anti tags to harass us, and I don't like arguing anymore because it's such a waste of time. I politely disagreed with you, I told you your effort is wasted on me, I don't know why you're persisting. In my last message, I tried to explain that all of our beloved POVs are used to discuss certain themes. I stipulated that a large chunk of Arya's story involves justice/mercy, but explained that since so many characters examine the same idea, we can't say "hey, hey! Justice=leadership=endgame queen!" I mean, Dany and Cersei are the women with experience ruling and both of them are gonna end the series dead (regardless of how you interpret Dany, tragic hero/fall arc etc, everyone knows it ends badly for her). 🤷🏻‍♀️

"Stansas could only dream...."

I don't need to dream. Sansa watched Ned handle things at court while hand, she's learning how to work people from LF, she is running a household, she's taking care of a kid, she's now being forced to charm a loser....honestly, this is stuff that is just as important for a woman to know if she is to be LoW or a queen, and let's not even get into how, while a prisoner herself she intervenes to save a life, how, although she is powerless, Martin writes her to inspire people to be more, to be better, to loyalty and protection. Don't try to pretend that Sansa doesn't have gobs of stuff that are just as easily used to defend spec she ends up in a leadership role in the North. In addition to LF’s plans we even have the other smartpants Tyrion thinking about what a great queen she would be. We’re meant to draw some conclusions from that. 😅 And, considering Martin's anti war/anti violence stance, her compassion for her enemies and her mercy are why thematically she would be part of a better future for the North.

But, we have the revelation that King Bran is Martin's endgame to factor in. I thought Sansa was destined to be a queen, King Bran has made me question it (why would Westerosi Lords select a Stark to lead them if the North goes free/has it's own queen?). So, I now look at what we might otherwise call foreshadowing with a little more skepticism. Jon literally has a raven screeching, "King" in his ear and we have arguments about a) his legitimacy and b) whether or not he will be a ruler of any kind pretty routinely, so I'm not targeting Arya when I say, nah, that's not foreshadowing. My favs are Jon and Sansa, and I now rethink what certain passages indicate for them.

Maybe it would help if you think of it this way. This isn't some sort of competition in which whoever has the more popular theory will magically manifest it or if you harass people into silence their theory will be wrong. Martin has known his ending for decades, I don't think I will ever get a chance to read it, so the only "winning" there is for us is to enjoy the fandom experience. It is a waste of your time (and mine!) to harass strangers on the internet when none of us will ever be right or proven wrong. Make your peace with us all disagreeing, forever being dissatisfied, and go have fun! The only ending I will ever get is not one that made me happy, but you don't see me making that other people's problem.

[elegantwoes]

sansa stans steal everything from other characters/relationships. 'the queen we chose line', dany's dragons, arya's wolf, good queen alysanne, gendry. jonsas steal the 'what do you know of my heart/sister' line from jon and arya, and most recently i've seen them steal the bear and the maiden fair song from braimes. your fave is so boring and dull you have to steal stuff to make her more interesting and unique. she is the most boring character in asoiaf deal with it.

I specifically asked you to provide sources we actually 'stole' those things too, because half of these are outlandish as fuck. I will only address the ones that do have some merit: The Alysanne one.

Anyone who has a basic understanding of English history knows that Queen Alysanne is based off of Eleanor of Aquitane. GRRM flat out said he based Alysanne on Katherine Hepburn's version of Eleanor in the lion in Winter (1968) movie. However this isn't the only time GRRM spoke about Eleanor of Aquitane:

However, with Catelyn there is something reset for the Eleanor of Aquitaine, the figure of the woman who accepted her role and functions with a narrow society and, nonetheless, achieves considerable influence and power and authority despite accepting the risks and limitations of this society.  (x)

The first character GRRM compares Eleanor to is Catelyn and calls them both baddass. Secondly he describes Eleanor as 'the woman who accepted her role and functions with a narrow society'. GRRM describes a type of female character that conforms to societal expectation of womanhood in a feudalistic society and Sansa squarely falls under that category..

Also while Sansa hasn't 'achieved considerable influence and power and authority despite accepting the risks and limitations of this society' just yet we can clearly see that Sansa will go down that route. Anyone who analyses Sansa's narrative arc in good faith knows she will hold a political position by the end of ASOIAF. The fandom has unamiously agreed to this. The only ones who vehemently deny this are antis.

So since Sansa is so extemely similar to Eleanor of Aquitane it naturally makes sense that she is similar to Alysanne as well, but that isn't the correct way to describe this.

It's Alysanne who is similar to Sansa. She is created in Sansa's and Catelyn's image and not the other way around. After all they are the major POV characters with lots of chapters. Alysanne is only a historical figure in Westeros who is only mentioned in one book whereas Sansa is a character who will shape the future.

And this is only aspect to Sansa Stark as a character. There's also her biggest storyline that is related to songs and truths, her identity and autonomy arc, how she is deconstructing and reconstructing what it means to be a true lady (a fine counterpart to her true knight), her romantic storyline is another.

These are all storylines that only belongs to Sansa and aren't stolen from anyone. So you were saying, anon?

[finitefall]

Heya! I have a feeling we’ll get Winds of Winter either this year or next year. Probably next year. But… can I confess something? GRRM isn’t like D&D from everything I have seen. Unlike them he cares about his story and his characters very very much. And I know Dany is one of his favorites and he fully supports her ending slavery. With Fire and Blood if she must. Unlike the two hacks who think Dany is evil for killing slave masters (“good and innocent” slave masters they tried to portray). But… I never thought we would get that disgusting awful ending that we got in the shitty season. That’s why part of me is really really afraid that what if GRRM is gonna give Dany an awful ending? I suppose I could accept Dany dying if she dies as a hero and to protect her people and her loved ones. But I much rather she lived even if she doesn’t become Queen. But… I have seen a lot of comments on YouTube and social media and on Discord and they said that it’s obvious in the books Dany will go mad. I really just want our girl to get a good ending but it seems these idiots are determined to make people like me scared that she will end the same way in the books. And some of these guys even claim to like Dany but that it’s obvious she’ll go mad.

I feel you. While waiting for season 8, I still had hope, even though by then I knew D&D and it shouldn't have come as a surprise that they would give us this awful, out of character, misogynistic ending. And yet, it hit me hard. So I understand that when people say the books are different and she's obviously not gonna have this awful ending, we can think: "well, I didn't expect the show would do this either even after all the crap they had done in the previous seasons, so better be prepared this time". But as you say, GRRM isn't D&D. Their social and political opinions aren't the same at all. Martin isn't talking about "innocent slavers" and isn't against revolution.

There are already plenty of differences between her characterization in the books and in the show. It still didn't make sense in the show, but it would make even less sense in the books. Now, we can criticize GRRM for some things, but throwing away everything from the previous novels and doing fan service for those who loved season 8? I don't think so. We already know Tyrion isn't gonna be reading her the Geneva convention in the books (he was whitewashed to the point of being stupid when he joined Dany in the show), we know Varys isn't gonna join her, so we won't have those two telling the emotionally fragile woman to "fight her darkest impulses".

We know Martin wrote a heroine's arc for Dany, and that he likes to subvert tropes. Everyone looked for a boy, but it's Daenerys who's Azor Ahai returned/TPTWP. It's not a sword that's Lightbringer, it's the dragons. Now, there's a fear that she will die saving the world, which would be very disappointing (I agree with those posts here and here), although not as awful as the show's ending.

Those who claim to love Daenerys because she's "such an interesting villain" are just antis Dany. Their Dark!Dany foreshadowing doesn't make any sense. Those are the same people who claim they're not against her fighting slavery, but she should do it peacefully, meaning they don't want her to actually fight slavery at all and are totally on the same page as D&D, even though they won't admit it and tell us it's all right to like her as a villain. They’re going on and on about how it’s more interesting and more subversive if Dany doesn’t end being a hero, but there’s literally nothing interesting or subversive about Dark!Dany. Her ending in the show fell into the oldest sexist tropes.

Who are those people who claim to love Dark!Dany, anyway? Take a look around tumblr: almost all of them are Sansa stans who also loved their fave ending up QITN. Like that makes sense when you've read the books. Dany isn't gonna become mad or a tyrant, Arya isn't gonna leave to travel the world (nonsense ending for Arya too, it was really for every main female character besides Sansa to be gone) or become a psychopath, Sansa isn't gonna become QITN. We're delusional? No lovely, they are. If you want reassurance, just play along next time you see someone who claims to love Dany and says it’s obvious she’ll go mad. Tell them that you could see this happening, that she would indeed be a better and more interesting antagonist than the others, that the only thing you wouldn’t like if this happened is that no main female character would end up without power corrupting them which would be sexist, and wait for their answer. It’s not gonna be “there’s Arya, don’t worry!”, because Dany and Arya stans actually get along in the fandom and most of us love both of them (Dany stan first, but Arya is my second favorite). No, it’s gonna be "there’s Sansa”.

[agentrouka-blog]

It feels so annoying when antis say Sansa isn't a princess because she was disinherited wtf does that even mean. Even if she was disinherited, it was from the line of succession, how does this change her status as the sister of the king? 💀💀 Just saying anything at this point, no sense, no logic. Especially since Sansa is the character literally based on princess archetype according to GRRM himself so like nothing can change her princess status among the main characters of asoiaf. Not sure what these people wanna accomplish with this? 😭😭

Hey, there is only one correct way for a Stark princess to be forced into marriage with an enemy House only to escape said marriage and go on to become a focal point of Northern resistance (as opposed to being disinherited and referred to as Lady Lannister by the Northern lords, none of which has actually happened at any point): by not actually having that happen to her at all, and have it happen to Jeyne Poole instead.

Everyone else gets disinherited and shamed and is definitely not a princess archetype!

Just ask all the Lady Bolton stans! Oh, sorry, I mean, Ned Stark's little girl Arya.

[selkiewife]

I think it’s wonderful that both Sansa and Arya have so much foreshadowing in their arcs that seem to be calling them back home to Winterfell. It’s almost as if... the Stark sisters can both end up in Winterfell and be part of the Stark family... at the same time...  🤔

[stardyng]

How can u support sansa? she sold arya out in the first book she didn't need to say how arya had traitor's blood and not her while cercie was pressuring here to write the letter but she still did even though she was smart enough to know how dangerous the situation was.

For starters, Sansa never sold Arya out in the books (or in the show for that matter). In fact, she has done almost the opposite more than once. In the chapter where we are introduced to her, Arya gets mad, and start talking loudly which catches the attention of Septa Mordane, but Sansa lies in order to cover for Arya, saving her from criticism. Then later on, Sansa is asked about Arya’s whereabouts and what she was doing but Sansa doesn’t divulge any substantial information, saving Arya once again from any kind of criticism. That being said, Sansa and Arya do not have the most positive of relationships, and they end up disagreeing with each other on practically everything and even though the narrative urges you to be on Arya’s side, if I had to be honest, Sansa’s actions are really valid, even when they aren’t the right ones. 

For example, at the Trident, her deciding to not choose any side in the conflict between Arya and Joffrey made perfect sense. She was Joffrey’s betrothed so in theory she should support him in every circumstance but Arya is not only her sister but has told the truth. However, siding with either of them would have serious repercussions. Siding with Joffrey would have caused Arya to be severely punished and would generally just made it so that blame ended up attributed to the wrong people. However, siding with Arya and supporting her version of the events would still have led to Arya being punished for hitting the crown prince, would have later led to Joffrey making even more irrational decisions due to his hate of the Starks, Cersei wouldn’t have been able to kill Lady now, but she would have found another way to dispose of her later on and the fact that Robert didn’t punish Joffrey for his actions even though he knew that his son was lying, is literal proof that he wouldn’t have received any substantial punishment for his actions even if Sansa told everyone what happened. All in all, her not siding with Arya (nor with Joffrey) made perfect sense seeing as she had no good choice available to her.

Then, people vilify Sansa for her constant conflicts with Arya as the book continues, and I think it’s unfair to degrade her for that. Sansa is in an incredibly delicate situation, is given no explanation to anything and is practically left alone to emotionally deal with all that went down because neither her father or septa Mordane are willing to put in the effort to help guide her through things. Plus, her beloved pet just got unfairly murdered which caused her to feel even sadder and angrier about everything. Essentially, being put in that specific situation led to her retconning the events at the Trident to make it fit with her worldview more, and some of her later decisions like going to the queen. It’s easier to just blame Arya for what happened to Lady than to accept the fact that not only is the man she is set to marry a horrible person, but that the way she viewed life is completely wrong. So because she pinned Arya as the one who caused all the bad things that went down at the Trident, all her anger including the parts of it that was directed at Joffrey, at Cersei and at her father, ended up being directed at Arya. Of course Arya didn’t deserve to be seen as the one at fault. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m trying to make it clear that the ones to blame for Sansa feeling this way are not just the people who actually caused Lady’s death but  also Ned and Septa Mordane for not helping her navigate her feelings (about Arya, about her family, about Lady dying, about the Lannisters, etc) in a healthier manner especially when Ned helped Arya deal with her feelings  earlier in the book. 

To add to this, not only does Sansa have to deal with her problems alone unlike her sister, but is later told that her engagement with Joffrey will be dissolved and that she will have to leave this city that contains everything she dreamed of having and experiencing (again, with no one explaining to her why that is the case). Not to forget that she had to see her father clearly favor her sister (Arya was allowed to bring Syrio home and got to have one last training session before leaving whereas Sansa was given no compromise or last meeting). All of that only add to the completely understandable bitterness she is feeling that is aimed towards her sister and her father. Plus, while Sansa wasn’t the nicest person to Arya, it isn’t like Arya was any better. Arya was internally resentful and jealous of Sansa for their entire childhood, she vilified her sister even when Sansa was covering for Arya, she publicly humiliated Sansa by pummeling her to the ground in front of everyone including the people she desperately wanted to impress, she ruined the dress that Sansa spent days making and acted as if Sansa was the one at fault for several of the horrors that happened at the Trident. What I’m saying is that it isn’t like Sansa was the only one who was unfair and mean, as Arya was too. Both were too harsh on each other, and it’s unfair to only criticize Sansa for something that both have done. 

All of this finally leads to the moment where Sansa says that Arya has the ‘’traitor’s blood’’ rather than her. It’s important to consider what happened to Sansa before that moment as well as what brought her to say that. Sansa has been isolated in a room for days all while people were fighting and killing each other outside of that room. She hadn’t seen any figure of authority (more specifically her father or Septa Mordane) for days. This is not forgetting that she didn’t even know who was fighting who or even why people were fighting in the first place. Sansa was incredibly stressed out and confused, and she had to deal with these feelings for many days. Following that, she ends up being brought to Cersei and the men of the small council, who proceed to manipulate her. She is told that her father betrayed the king, and that the Lannisters may decide to annul her engagement with Joffrey (that engagement represents everything she dreamed of) due to her father’s and sister’s crimes. This is especially important because in her perspective, Lady died precisely because of her sister’s mistakes and she’s still angry at her sister for that. In her head, she was punished because her sister was doing something wrong, and no one would listen to her when she argued that she hadn’t a hand on the bad things that have happened. For her, this is just a repeat of these events, so she’s desperately saying anything that might convince Cersei to make sure that she isn’t once again punished for what her sister has done wrong, and saying that she should not be held accountable for her sister’s mistakes is only one of these things. What Sansa said may have been harsh, but considering all that has happened to her thus far since leaving Winterfell, it is comprehensible why she would say such a thing. She’s desperate, she’s angry, and she’s alone. I also want to remind you that later in the story, Sandor Clegane and Arya have a conversation about Sansa and what went down at the Trident where Sandor lies to Arya about what Sansa did that night, (he told her that Sansa sided with Joffrey by agreeing with his version of the story instead of Arya’s). In that scene, even though Arya was there and knew that Sansa (publicly) stayed neutral in that conflict, instead of pointing that out, she ends up degrading Sansa for doing something that she never did in the first place. Again, the point isn’t to shame Arya, but rather to point out how unfair it is to criticize Sansa for things that Arya does as well. 

I think that with all of that in mind, it’s rather easy to see how I could possibly support Sansa. I support her because she’s been shamed for doing things that make complete sense considering her age, the circumstances and what she knows. I support her because her sister often does similar things yet it’s only bad when Sansa does it. I support her because her father and her supervisor have been completely negligent of her through out their entire stay at King’s Landing. I support her because she had to watch as her father favored and prioritized her sister over her at every single turn. I support her because her pet just died and yet no one helped her deal with her grief and her anger. I support her because she just saw as everything she thought was real ended up being untrue. I support her because she was a child being put in an incredibly stressful situation with no good option. I support her because even though all of that was happening, she still found it in her heart to comfort and sympathize with a man who was tormenting her. I support her because her father told her that he was going to rob her of all of things that she loved by forcing her to leave the capitol all while never bothering to explain anything (including his reasoning as to why he thinks she should leave) to her. I support her because he wouldn’t even make a compromise with her about leaving despite making one with her sister. I support her because the people whom she thought she could trust were lying to her, manipulating her and gas-lighting her. I support her because even though she’s angry at her father and sister, she still very much loves them, and puts in the extra effort in order to save her father from a possible execution. I support her because she’s a young girl who was failed by everyone around her, and yet instead of blaming these people, readers have decided to blame her for all of the things that went wrong in the story. I support her because she deserves that support. 

[aerltarg]

honestly fuck every “dany doesn't have any idea what courtesy means” or “dany just The Angry TeenagerTM” bullshit. these ppl literally have never read any of her chapters.

just look how many times kraznys mo nakloz insulted her, while she actually understood him, but did she lose her temper? did she throw a temper tantrum bc she wasn't getting any respect, let's alone the one fit for a queen she is? did she forget her purpose bc of any of that?

just tell me how many characters in this series would be able to keep a straight face hearing such insults directed at them.

but when did dany come close to losing it?

as one of the quotes above shows, when kraznys started to harm others, the unsullied in front of them, “it was hard to pretend not to understand”.

and even more so there:

some characters in these books can't master a single drop of sympathy when ppl are dying in front of them but dany gets so angry and sick after hearing all of this that she started to feel faint. long dead infants whom she never met, long dead dogs she never saw, and yet she almost dropped her play after just hearing abt them and carried these feelings towards the very end of the chapter, after many hours since she left kraznys.

it's the first chapter where we actually get to meet the slaver's bay and the real face of slavery. and grrm went out of his way to show us how ugly it is w every single detail. the main representative of slavers there is kraznys and the man managed to insult literally everyone around him almost w his every breath, revealed himself as not only incredibly cruel slaver but also a misogynistic piece of shit at that.

in these quotes i also highlighted some passages, like kraznys laughing at dany for showing kindness and compassion and openly despising her for this as well as talking without blinking abt men being sold “for less than the price of their swords”, abt many atrocities done to unsullied, abt forcing them to murder infants in front of their mothers, calling incitement of a bear on three little boys w non-existent intention to allow any of them survive “a nice folly”, etc.

and i dare anyone to look me in the eye and say that “slavery is complicated”, “it's a part of their culture” or “grrm doesn't write slavery as clearly evil and deserved to be destroyed practice”. i dare you to try and say that kraznys didn't deserve to die, that dany is wrong for killing him, that dany is mad for doing so, that we aren't supposed to cheer for her, that she isn't a hero for that and freeing unsullied and the whole anti slavery campaign.

i can't imagine how anyone can read these books and come to the conclusion that “slavers are innocent” LMFAO

btw, a child murder is portrayed as one of the biggest sins and the worst crimes possible (if not the biggest and the worse) by the narrative all the time. so grrm filling the very first chapter we spent in the slaver's bay w the great variety of violence, abuse and horrible deaths of children inflicted by slavers is NOT setting up slavery as “complex issue”.

it was pointed out again and again but i will repeat once more. grrm doesn't give the purely evil monsters any redeeming qualities in his books. not a drop of greyness. it should be obvious enough already. and yet fandom doesn't have problems for acknowledging this w gregor clegane or boltons. but when it comes to dany? suddenly it's “why wouldn't anyone think abt poor slavers” and “but what abt the economy” or “it's their cUlTuRe” lmao

i also would like to point out a really tiny but curious detail that probably isn't a thing put there w a purpose from grrm. though, maybe it is... but anyway, this chapter is Daenerys II, ASOS, that that comes after Arya IV, where we have gendry talking abt thoros of myr, how he used to bargain w a blacksmith over a price of his swords (“slave swordsmen can be had for less than the price of their swords”, remember?), and Bran II is the chapter that comes after Daenerys II where we have the line “Some people hurt others just because they can” in the context of winterfell being taken by ramsay and boltons' men w the great unnecessary violence, e.g. murdering all the ppl living in the castle.

tldr; you need to open just one (1) random chapter to see what a nonsense bullshit antis invent in their obsessive attempts to hate on dany. 1) dany is very smart, perfectly knows what courtesy and self-control is, but also is a very kind and compassionate person w a strong sense of justice who can let any insults against her personally slide but gets infuriated when meets injustice and violence against others, esp innocent and defenceless ones like children. 2) dany is the hero we are supposed to root for in her fight against slavery just like we are supposed to root for jon when he decided to march against boltons or even for oberyn when he fought gregor clegane demanding justice for elia. dany is quite different from these men, though, bc she fights not over any personal reason but for the greater good, for many ppl she doesn't even know. bc slavery IS evil and it's needed to disappear, full stop. the “slavery is complex”/“some slavers are innocent” narrative is nowhere to be seen.

[fedonciadale]

you do know that sansa bullied both arya and jon in books canonically, right? her version on show is pretty whitewashed if you ask me. one "i was mean as a child forgive me" isn't enough even for anti sansa. there it was cute, because kids sometimes are mean but books? sansa bullied him. it is in the text. you say no, there was no such thing and my reaction is: keep talking to yourself, maybe it'll became true.

Free advice for you today: Go out, touch some grass!

[istumpysk]

“Arya isn't classist because she befriends smallfolk" is like the tripe “I'm not racist I have black friends”, that's NOT HOW IT WORKS! She's a noble, she'll always be one. If their lives weren't fucked & she grew up in Winterfell, she'd be a lady, live & behave within that paradigm. Does anyone truly think she'd have given up her name/title/lands and left to live as something else ? Sure, she'd treat people in her employment & smallfolk better than other nobles but the Starks or Edmure Tully already do that. Just like Sansa's best friend being in lower status than her, Arya befriending smallfolk doesn't mean shit either regarding classism in the bigger picture. Of course, we should talk about these serious issues when analyzing ASOIAF but not understanding the concepts & what you��re talking about leads to a much more harmful narrative. She’s of nobility, she isn't revolutionary, she isn't a marxist, she can't be. There’s no such thing as benevolent aristocrat, just like there’s no such thing as benevolent capitalist today or a communist banker. You can’t have nobility without inequality and exploitation.

This isn’t what class conscious means! Of course, people who scream “Arya’s better, she isn't classist” ad nauseam don’t give a single flying fuck about any of that, they’re just using it to push their anti-Sansa agenda. But their hypocrisy shows when their ideal ending consists of Arya not only reclaiming her title & position in society, but also reaffirming the class structure of Westeros by being queen. Which is fine by me this is that kind of story after all, but they’d better cut the BS when they don't even try to be consistent and logical.

Go off, anon. Lol

It's like anything else. When people start accusing Sansa of classism, they're fully admitting to you they have little to work with.

[fromtheseventhhell]

Stansas stalk you and are to cowards and weak to confront you

https://www.tumblr.com/littl3bird/716524376984518656/ecce-felix-exactly?source=share

This is genuinely so hilarious, I can't believe I already have my own fanclub 😭. You blocked me and took screenshots of my post cause you were too nervous to interact with me awwwww. I would love to know what you think a character being a "girlboss" means, cause right now the definition just sits at being a "key female character" @littl3bird .

I also love how they're proving my point! They're acting as though liking Sansa and other "feminine" female characters makes them more feminist than liking "girboss/NLOG" characters like Dany and Arya. Cause we all know being a feminist is about sorting women into (incorrect) categories and deciding which are the better examples of womanhood! Never mind that calling Arya and Dany characters who fulfill "masculine power fantasies" is, in fact, misogyny. Meanwhile, their support of those characters is shallow as hell and only done so they can use them as props. It's so hilarious that they clearly think of Arya and Dany are lesser female characters and that they're in the right for doing so. They can't even pretend to be fair or unbiased for two seconds. They literally have in their bio that they don't want you interacting with them if you think Arya and Dany could get along or like them more than Sansa!

They treat people liking both Dany and Arya as some misogynistic conspiracy against "feminine" female characters. I didn't even say anything about not liking Sansa in that post, or anywhere on my blog. I don't have any "anti Sansa" posts anywhere and all my issues are specifically with her toxic fans who act like this...yet I'm called a misogynist because I don't support the fanon version of Sansa they've made. Guess what? Disliking Sansa doesn't make someone a misogynist and acting as though she's the sole victim of misogyny in this fandom isn't going to make her more important in the story. If you really defended female characters from misogyny, then why is it that you're fine with Dany and Arya being put down to prop up Sansa? We all know the real answer even if they don't want to admit it 🤷🏾‍♀️. They couldn't care less about misogyny, it's just become a convenient tool to use to attack fans of female characters who aren't Sansa. Notice how they don't ever pull this same shit with fans of male characters?

[sayruq]

i dont think key fivers were afraid of sansa of course fandom toxicity ramped up as the season went on and post show but its probably because the show whitewashed a lot of characters and their conflict like tyrion both because they were favourite character by the showrunners and the show wanted generic conflict instead of complexity and many characters and arcs got cut because of it, this turned fandom into thinking key 5 didnt mean "characters who affect the story good or bad depending on point of view" but turned into "the key 5 are heroes that'll save the day against the others and have a happy ending" by season 5/6

sansa was mostly ignored or victim blamed even by book fans before the show exept by a few so i dont know what they really thought her story was gonna be by the end but the show made it worse by not giving her enough nuance even in the early seasons and while diverging her arc pretty badly, it had her in a position of leadership, this pushed the idea in BROAD strokes that might be explained better in the books that her character did matter so i guess it did ruffle some feathers of theorists that didnt think about her all these years and a lot of there theories were proven wrong in the end

I'm telling you it's to exclude Sansa. The whole point is to 'prove' that she's not a main character and won't be involved in the final war(s) of the books. I've seen it with my own eyes.

GRRM himself said he was mostly pulling shit out of his ass with that outline and most people moved on from it once the novelty wore off but a contingent of antis saw it as all the evidence they need that Sansa won't

help free Winterfell from the Boltons

play a part in the fight against the Others

play a part in the war between Aegon vs Daenerys

have a romance with Jon (I don't ship Jonsa but you can't deny that a big part of Key Fiver is the idea that Sansa isn't important enough for a romance with Jon unlike his aunt and other sister

rule the North as Lady of Winterfell or Queen

And I have to disagree, while many people ignored all the signs pointing to Sansa becoming a big player in the game of thrones, they didn't ignore Sansa as a character at all.

I also get where you're coming from but the idea that Jon, Dany and Tyrion (with help from Bran and maaaaaaaaybe Arya - the idea that she'd become some sort of Batman in the Riverlands with her army of wolves was more popular than the idea she'd play a role in fighting the Others which is why D&D chose her specifically to deliver the killing blow) was there before we got the outline. Key Fivers just absorbed it into their DIY lore.

[esther-dot]

I love how A/rya fans like to talk about Sansa being a symbol of White Feminism and Upholding the Patriarchy and that "all of Sansa's fans are white women whereas WOC are draw to characters like D/any and A/rya" lol (I'm a WOC from the Middle East btw and Sansa is my favorite and the one I relate to the most) when A/rya had the nerve and audacity to name her direwolf Nymeria and then proceed have low key racist thoughts about Ned Dayne (the blondest, lightest Dornishman in the books btw lol) and the Dornish in general. Her fans are SO lucky GRRM/D&D are/were obsessed with "willful" i.e. annoying Not Like Other Girl female characters and gave her plot armor the likes of which we've never seen before in the series LMAO.

I've seen that claim, and I'm sorry that it's been leveled at you. Of course I think they are totally misunderstanding Sansa and what her fans love about her, but at this point if they refuse to acknowledge we're working with two totally different interpretations of the characters and themes, I doubt they ever will.

I think you’d enjoy the critiques of how Martin has handled Arya in this blogger’s anti tag (link). I like Arya, but it’s hard to deny there is a lot of favoritism there. I personally relate to Sansa much more as well. I can enjoy a willfull character, but it doesn’t ring true for a lot of us because many of us didn’t have the option to just refuse to behave. Too much depended on us to flout the rules. I see a lot of that reality in Sansa.

As for Dany, I have sympathy for her because she’s endured awful things, but we do have to step back and think about what the author is saying with her story, and not blindly think we're meant to support or agree with her at every turn.

"How kind of my old friend to help with the digging. And how very unlike him. Is it possible he was given no choice in the matter? No, surely not. You have no slaves in Meereen."         

Dany flushed. "Your friend is being paid with food and shelter. I cannot give him back his wealth. Meereen needs beans more than it needs rare spices, and beans require water." (Daenerys III, ADWD)

I mean, I think it’s reasonable for someone to read the above and think, “oh, maybe the author is pointing something out to us here.” I also think the racism in Dany's storyline (which is widely commented on and criticized -- that isn't something only Sansa fans point out) is a huge problem for many people. We can argue if we're meant to blame the character or the author (or both), but I'd think it's totally obvious why some people would just not enjoy reading her story at all because of it!