#.thread: remember when

[gloriousmonsters]

love when you can ask the Narrator why the Princess is a Princess and he's like 'well i uhhhh YOU did that. maybe it's because uh... something something about her being above you... but still approachable... look i don't want to analyze or anthropomorphize your--' my guy. i am a primal being of Order and Eternity and Shaping. You're the one who convinced me I was some dude and were quite willing to take credit for shaping my view on the world through narration five seconds ago. Are you gonna look me in the eye and tell me the desire to interpret something worthy of adoration and more powerful than me as a dommy princess is written in the very nature of the universe or are you going to show me your browser history like a man

[astrolavas]

Who do you think Hunter will stay with at the end of the show? Or who do you want him to stay with

tbh out of all the possible future caretakers of hunter, my primary hope for who will adopt him rn rly is camila. y'know, loved all the different possibilities too but…. camila ❤️❤️❤️ like, just. like. that's his MOMMMM

the vision of him living with camila (and luz and vee), going to hexside (cuz obv there's gonna a portal), and having a woodcarving mentorship under the clawthornes' and some mentorship under darius. and then once in a while occassionally staying over at the owl house.... Y'KNOW? so real.

camila's just too perfect of an option, LIKE. he spent months under her care already, he doesn't have even one bad experience with her that could possibly make him doubt and feel bad abt their relationship (no feeling like he needs to prove himself to gain her respect, no complicated past that'd have to be dealt with, no wondering if the care he's shown is genuine, no previous authority issues, no previous hostility etc etc) like camila's been extremely sweet and caring towards him and nothing else since the very start. it makes me sOO... 🤲😔❤️

the very first MOMENT they interact and hunter kneels in front of her out of respect she warmly tells him to never do it again; makes it clear that he doesn't have to be overly formal with her. just offers her kindness, expecting nothing in return. right away.

camila is probably the first adult ever that hunter associates with only warmth and goodness and whom he feels comfortable with from the start, with whom he doesn't have any past grudges or things they'd need to work out, just.. unconditional love. and justttt just just oughhhghh she called him baby. she's been basically treating him like her son already, and she's SUCH a good and supportive mom, to luz, to vee, to hexsquad. she taught him how to sew. she DIVED into FREEZING WATER at an OLD ABANDONED CEMETERY without a second thought in order to save him. JUST!!!!

him wanting to impress her with the spanish. her touching his shoulder and him showing not even an OUNCE of fear, just smiling and knowing she's not going to hurt him. him taking up interest in camila's and manny's old hobby. camila having experience with dealing with grief.. oof. him being happy living in the human realm (wanting to do things in the demon realm as well but having ties to BOTH worlds). even the fact that the entire noceda family is clearly neurodivergent, just like him. even him being an animal enjoyer and camila having a vet clinic, which- he WOULD LOVE to volunteer there in his free time, like?? COME ON.

AND THIS???? okay......

and we KNOW he WANTS to have a permanent family. it's established at the beginning of the episode when he looks sad as others hang up their family drawings. he wants ppl to care abt him, he wants to have a place to call home, wants to feel safe. he cries (from happiness) when luz calls him family.

and camila cares abt all of these kids so much. she was willing to take vee and hexsquad in JUST LIKE THAT. we can even assume her and manny wanted more kids, like just OUGHHGH she wouldn't even have to think twice before taking hunter in permanently. and she most likely knows hunter doesn't have anyone. she's not going to let him just….. go away on his own after everything is over, or make him move out or sth 💀 she'll want to help him, she'll want him to be safe and cared for.

like the only other possibilities for who else hunter could stay with after the show were: darius, eda/the clawthornes, or joint custody. but imo after... he lived under camila's roof for MONTHS, found a place that he feels safe in.. nocedas are just the best and healthiest option for him. after he'd spent MONTHS feeling happy with camila, i don't think it'd be good for him to be thrust into a completely new environment, and.. there's simply no time for his connection with other adults to be properly fleshed out, or to establish that he'd prefer anyone over nocedas.

like, i feel like sth has to happen with darius as well cuz their arc is unfinished, esp since it's been hinted they've grown closer since ASiAS, and there's a lot they could talk abt now re: grief + darius' mentor... so they HAVE to reunite at least. however, in my opinion at this point of the show there'd be just no time to conclude it as a parent-child bond in a satisfactory way. especially because there would be a LOT they'd have to work through first, considering their very complicated past.

like, all these years in the coven, their relationship pre-ASiaS, how darius treated hunter all these years... we know their relationship has progressed positively since ASiAS (even though mostly in the background/subtext) but still, i feel like it'd definitely take a while until hunter felt truly comfortable while living at darius'. he'd probably worry that it's conditional, could even easily fall back into his old coven mentality/habits, would try to make darius proud no matter what, etc. etc. it wouldn't be the healthiest for him. although eventually he would get comfortable, and that concept also had sm potential, but like the journey to that wouldn't be quick, and it'd have to be an arc on its own too. and, again, there is no time for that. rly cheering for a reunion and a talk, maybe even a mentorship of sorts, but considering hunter already has a place he feels fully comfortable in and ppl who consider him family right now, i feel like him ending in a completely new place after all that wouldn't be his #1 preferred option.

same with eda/the clawthornes tbh; it had sooo much potential and he is technically related to them AND is going to find that out soon, so some kinda interaction/development HAS to happen, and he did say he wants to learn how to carve palismen, so a mentorship may also happen... but as for actual adoption mm i don't think anything can come close to how safe and happy and Good he's felt for those months while under camila's care. again, in the future things COULD develop in such way, but considering we have two episodes until we get a conclusion... mmyeah

so................ yeah.

i just have so so so many thoughts abt hunter finding a family and getting to be a teenager and feeling loved and feeling like he has his own place in the world and being safe and allowed to explore his interests and to be himself........ hunter nocedaaaaa oughhghhh 🤲❤️

[midnightsslut]

i know swifties are known for appreciating taylor’s lyrics, but i’m starting to wonder if the fandom has grown so large and her music so dense that a lot of people don’t understand what she’s saying at all. add the general trend of media illiteracy, the weird handwringing about whether her lyrics are autobiographical, and the increasingly popular view that you cannot see the author in the work, and a lot of people (largely not on here) are starting to have zero appreciation for the meaning of her lyrics beyond ‘this sounds pretty. that’s such a good metaphor!’ a lot of people are genuinely amazing at analyzing her music and post insightful takes, but the opposite is becoming prevalent as well imo.

[silverwhittlingknife]

How do you feel about Jack Drake?? What are your thoughts on him and Tim’s relationship?

Anon, I hope you were interested in a novel, because look, I am fascinated by Jack Drake.  He’s key to a whole lot of what I find compelling about Tim as a character, and if I were in charge of DC, I’d bring him back to life.  This would make Tim unhappy but would IMO make for good plotlines.

Jack and Tim’s relationship is Complicated (TM)...

Jack and Tim hug in Nightwing 20 / Jack impulsively yanks a TV out of the wall in Robin 45 / Tim grieves in Identity Crisis

“I could tell the truth.  But I don’t.” - Robin 66

...and it involves a whole lot of Tim lying, and feeling guilty about lying, and thinking about telling the truth, and choosing again and again to keep lying.

And I think that’s great.

Below the cut:

Shorter version - key points about Jack

Really long version - my gentler take (vigilantism is choir and Jack loves sports) vs. my harsher take (Jack has some major flaws)

Final thoughts

Shorter version - key points about Jack:

He’s a bad parent.  He’s self-centered, he consistently prioritizes his own comfort and interests over his son’s, and when upset, he does things like order Tim off to boarding school.

But he’s never a bad parent in an actionable way.  He’s not like David Cain or Arthur Brown, who are abusive monsters.  Jack’s not a monster!  He just...kinda sucks.

He genuinely loves Tim. If Jack’s aware that Tim’s disappeared or is in trouble, he’s always worried and upset.  He periodically resolves to be a better dad, and IMO he’s always sincere.

And Tim loves him, a lot.  Tim’s protective of him and worries about him when he’s kidnapped or in danger, and when they’re reunited, Tim’s really relieved and usually hugs him (and Jack hugs back!). 

...But they have very little in common, and that’s a problem. Jack doesn’t value the things that Tim values, or respect the people that Tim admires, or care about the things that Tim’s interested in.  Tim lies to him a lot, but that’s partly because he correctly guesses Jack wouldn’t respond well if he knew the truth of what Tim’s up to.

The Batfamily is a surrogate family that Tim’s drawn to because of the ways his real family doesn’t meet his emotional needs…but also he feels guilty about that and disloyal. (And to the extent that his dad recognizes what’s going on, he's jealous and resentful!)

Very long version:

(LISTEN I HAVE SO MANY THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS)

Okay!  So first: Jack’s a character who IMO is pretty up for interpretation.  You can interpret him very charitably, and make excuses for the bad behavior, and fill in the blanks sympathetically when situations are ambiguous; or you can interpret him uncharitably, and emphasize the bad behavior. I don’t think either approach is invalid - it depends on what kind of story you’re interested in!  I have enjoyed Bad Dad stories and also stories that redeem Jack.

My personal take on canon is that Jack and Tim’s relationship is in a gray area.  Jack's definitely neglectful, and he does prioritize other things over Tim, but he’s never so bad that Tim can easily reject him, and he's never so bad that Bruce could justify taking Tim away.  He's just...not great.  Tim loves him, and feels loyal to him, but it’s a very mixed-up complicated love.

I have a gentler take and a harsher one which I switch between as the spirit moves me. xD

My Gentler Take (tl;dr: vigilantism is choir and Jack loves sports)

Here’s the core conflict: Jack and Tim are very different people with different values.  Tim idolizes Bruce and Dick and vigilantism, and secretly gets involved, knowing his dad will hate it. He gets increasingly wrapped up in his secret world and lies to his dad...because if his dad finds out, he’ll make Tim quit.

This is a great setup for an ongoing comic.  It’s practical, because it provides endless potential for plotlines, and it’s nicely thematic, because it maps closely onto relatable real-life situations with extracurricular activities:

Tim the drama nerd whose dad thinks he’s playing football and not in the school play; 

Tim the closeted-queer kid secretly getting involved in his school’s politically-active Gay-Straight Alliance; 

Tim the choir kid whose dad only values making money and wants him to go into the family business (and Tim keeps promising himself he'll give up choir soon, definitely soon, but maybe he'll stay in just a liiiittle longer, because they need him, you see, the last tenor left town, so...); 

Tim the computer geek with the sports-obsessed dad (this one’s just canon);

etc. etc.  

The extracurricular metaphor works pretty well for Tim’s relationship to vigilantism.  Tim's involved in his "extracurricular" because he genuinely thinks it's important and fulfilling, and he values it and wants to be good at it. He idolizes Bruce and Dick because they're good at it. He's been collecting information about it since he was a little kid, and hiding it from his parents because he knows they wouldn't approve. And mayyyybe there's also an element of low-key rebellion against his dad, and maybe that's secretly part of the appeal. And yet also as Tim gets more and more invested, he starts to daydream: maybe I could tell my dad and he'd be proud of me and supportive. But he doesn't, because actually he knows his dad would be upset and angry and make him quit.

And - again, just like with lonely kids and extracurricular hobbies - one of the things that happens is that Tim starts getting his unfilled emotional needs met ... by people he knows through this secret hobby. And people like Bruce and Dick start turning into a surrogate family. Which Tim feels guilty about. And also as Tim gets more and more wrapped up in their world, he has to lie to his dad even more, which means the distance between Tim and his dad gets bigger and bigger and more and more unfixable.

I love this dilemma. It's simple, it's recognizable, it provides endless sources for conflict, and there's no obvious solution! Tim can't tell Jack: he'll make Tim quit! And Tim doesn't want to quit, because he loves choir / art / theater / whatever.  Yeah, it’s difficult, and there are challenges, and sometimes he has doubts...but at the end of the day, he cares about it a lot.  And everything he values is there, and all the people he admires and cares about are there, and all he wants in the world is to feel like he's one of them and belongs there. So he has to lie, even though he doesn't want to lie, and he feels guilty about it...

...but also he ends up lying more and more.

(Sidenote: I think it's important that Tim chooses to keep lying - Tim's narration often glosses this as "I have to lie to my dad," and that's certainly how it feels to Tim, but this... isn't quite true. He has to lie to his dad, because if he doesn't, his dad will get mad at him and try to stop him, not because he literally has no choice about it.)

Other Reasons Why I Like The "Secret Extracurricular" Interpretation

(tl;dr it complicates not just Tim's relationship with his dad, but also all his other relationships)

Tim's problems have some obvious parallels to Steph and Cass, who both become vigilantes while rejecting their evil supervillain dads. But Jack isn't evil. And that means the Tim-and-Jack relationship is ambiguous and complicated in ways that I like. Steph and Cass can just leave their Bad Dads in prison, and say good riddance, and feel very righteous and triumphant about it! Tim’s more complicated. Tim gets into vigilantism ostensibly out of duty and altruism, but secretly, he's also involved for straight-up selfish self-fulfillment reasons. He's lonely, and bored, and his life feels pointless, but he thinks that Bruce and Dick are cool and amazing and he wants to be a part of the things that they do.  When his dad gets jealous of Tim’s relationship to Bruce, and feels like Tim’s looking for a surrogate family, he’s... not wrong.

And the ways in which Jack is not Actionably Bad complicate things from Bruce's POV.  If Jack was a straight-up villain, it’d be an easy call to keep in touch when Jack finds out and makes Tim quit...but he’s not a villain, not really.  So what do you do?  Do you try to surreptitiously stay in touch with Tim even though you’re ignoring his dad’s express wishes and thus forcing Tim to sneak around?  Do you respect his dad’s wishes and stay away from Tim even though you have a years-long relationship at this point?  

Again: a bit similar to the extracurricular analogy.  Say you’re the choir director and you’ve built this whole relationship with a kid in the choir, and you’re an important mentor to him and you care about him etc. etc. etc.... and then right before a big performance, his dad finds out he’s been secretly involved, and yanks him out.  How would you react?  Well, maybe kind of in some of the ways Bruce reacts.  You replace him. You’re annoyed with him. You miss him. You want him to come back. You’re also worried about him.  You’re upset with his dad.  But also... what should you do, exactly?

Bruce and Alfred and Dick care about Tim as if he were part of their family, but he’s not part of their family, and there’s a lot of interesting tension there.

My Harsher Take

Jack never hits his son.  But his temper is a big deal.

In his worst moments, he takes out his anger on Tim’s stuff - wrecking his room, or ripping his TV out of the wall and confiscating it.  When he’s worried about Tim, he usually expresses that fear by yelling at him / punishing him / sending him away - threatening to send him to boarding school in Metropolis in Robin III, or threatening to send him to military school abroad in Robin 92, or actually forcing him to go to an all-boys' boarding school post-NML.  

This is bad behavior!  It is Not Good!  

And you can easily connect the dots to a bunch of Tim’s terrible coping mechanisms, like the constant lying and or the fact that Tim’s go-to methods for dealing with interpersonal conflict are 1) repress it and pretend it never happened (most of his fights with Bruce), 2) withdraw from the relationship until he can pretend the conflict doesn’t exist (when his friends get mad at him in YJ, he quits the team for a while), or 3) literally run away from home.

Also, Jack is a Manly Man with firm opinions about how men behave vs. how women behave, and he thinks boys shouldn’t be scared and thinks Tim should date hot girls and pushes Tim to work out and wants him to play football and expresses period-typical sexism, etc. etc. etc. ... and though obviously this wasn’t what the writers had in mind at the time, all of that is certainly interesting to read backwards in the light of Tim as a queer character.

More Disorganized Thoughts on Jack Drake

Tim’s our hero, so we’re naturally more sympathetic to him, but it’s also true that relationships are a two-way street, and Tim doesn’t value any of the things his dad values, either.  Jack at various points is shown to care about grades, business, money, boarding schools, archeology, football, a kind of macho bragging-about-dating-hot-women ethos, and a very public and performative kind of caring. Tim tends to respond with discomfort or disinterest or even disgust.  When Jack gets on TV to try to rally the government to save his son from No Man’s Land, Tim isn’t touched—he’s mortified.  When Jack makes some bad investments and loses money, Jack’s deeply upset and his self-image is majorly impacted, and far from being sympathetic, Tim’s annoyed and kind of contemptuous of the idea that this is a problem.  Jack thinks fishing in the early morning and going to tennis matches is a fun father-son activity; Tim finds it exhausting and tedious.  And so on.

This means that Tim often longs to be closer to his dad in theory, but this longing is more tied to fantasy than to reality. He rarely seems to enjoy spending time with His-Dad-The-Actual-Person.  So for example, when Tim’s deadly ill with the Clench, he has an extremely poignant fever dream about telling his dad the truth and getting hugged…even as he insists in real-life to Alfred and Dick that he does not want them to tell his dad what’s going on.

The same is true of Jack, who IMO genuinely wants to be closer to his son and is continually declaring that he’s going to turn over a new leaf and get closer to his son…and just as continually backs out of activities or loses his temper when faced with spending time with his actual son.

Tim and his dad sadly get along best—by far—in Absence Makes the Heart Grow Fonder situations.  When Jack gets kidnapped or is in danger, Tim worries for him (and Tim grieves him deeply when he dies).  When Tim disappears or runs away, Jack’s genuinely worried about him.  So e.g. they have a really moving emotional reunion and hug when the earthquake hits Gotham, and Tim panics about his dad’s safety and comes running home (and meanwhile Jack’s been panicked about Tim’s safety!).  It’s the day-to-day, regular life stuff where they don’t connect.

Jack's written quite differently by different writers. Mostly, Tim's parents are at their least likable in his early appearances and early miniseries (this is where you get, for example, Jack and Janet being nasty at each other while a pained employee looks on, and Tim disappointed to once again get news of where his parents are via postcard - "I guess that sums them up! Never know where they’re going to be–or when–or even how long!” - and Tim alone on school break, and Bruce and Alfred thinking there's something weird going on with Tim's parents, etc. etc.). Jack's more sympathetic but still often unlikable in most of Tim's Robin solo, and he's almost invisible (but positively treated if he does show up) in Tim's team books.

For obvious reasons, Jack's remembered way more sympathetically after his death. Tim's completely devastated by Jack's murder, which he arrives moments too late to prevent, and he basically never gets over it. We see him grieving Jack again and again in Robin, and also in Teen Titans, and also in Resurrection, and again in the Halloween Special, and again in Batman: Blackest Night, and all the way up to the end of Red Robin. Tim also grieves for an extended time over Janet - he hallucinates a happy reunion with her when he's feverish in Contagion, and hallucinates her in the final issue of Robin, and the reveal-your-buried-emotions song in Robin 102 brings up his grief for her too (meanwhile, other characters dance or laugh or otherwise get giddy).  Tim’s grief over his parents’ deaths is intense and long-lasting.

I'm not going to clip comic panels because this is long enough, but if you're curious, here's a nice and fairly lengthy compilation of comic panels with Tim and Jack.

If you're interested in a Jack-centric story with a softer-but-still-recognizably-canon take on Jack, I really like the way Jack’s narration is written in the one-shots Heart Humble (set shortly before Jack dies) and Never a Hero (Ra's resurrects him during Brucequest, and Jack's archeology skills turn out to be unexpectedly useful).

[becpng]

aw, he's playing soldier <3

[maxdurden]

look. no one's asking y'all to like the rat grinders. but, even the greatest rat grinders hater has to admit that it sucks that the show that started with 'people are the instrument through which the universe cares' is going this way. maybe the problem is that the rat grinders were too nuanced of a villain for tbk to handle on a comedy show—but they reached out to the nightmare king and rehabilitated cassandra. when fabian was an ass because of his toxic masculinity, it was called out in the narrative and he changed and grew.

it feels thematically disappointing to see tbk be cruel bullies all season and.... not grow? not change? not learn a lesson? the lesson of freshman year was about friendship and caring! the lesson of sophomore year was varied, but everyone grew individually as characters and reformed a corrupted goddess! the lesson of junior year is.... checks notes.... it's okay to bully/torment/kill people if you really are just that good at what you do?

look—at the end of the day this season has been very funny and that's fine, i guess (obligatory disclaimer here that i HAVE enjoyed this season,,,but that doesn't mean it's above a little criticism). but if the intrepid heroes wanted a villain to dunk on, maybe a different villain would have been a better choice (or they could focus on dunking on porter?? the actually evil responsible adult in the room). and i dont think you can blame people who were primed for emotionally satisfying, thematically interesting, character focused storytelling from sophomore for being a bit bummed that this season kinda feels like it's fumbling the thematic bag.

[iwritenarrativesandstuff]

(apparently) hot take: Gon isn’t any more selfish than the average 12 year old

[beeduoo]

Up and at it yesss lets bring ghe mansion back

[erabu-san]

HI ERABUU HRUU?? :D

so, have you seen those Sethos and Wanderer lines? and the dynamic them both have at all?? its like Sethos wanted to know more of Wanderer and possibly befriend him y'know 😭😭

YES I READ IT AND i am really invested in it.

They are both interesting, I enjoy their dynamic 😭 bahahaa plz ! Also when wanderer told "huh he keeps following me and ask abt my hat ☝️ 😐" and sethos and in backstory 1 of Sethos, when Sethos was too busy, Wanderer is the one starting the conversation 😭 oh he doesn't mind Sethos at all !! Anyway, looking how Sethos is smart but also open-minded, I am sure Wanderer would find it interesting to talk with him too !

And the fact they also both pretty similar, but contrary too !! Anyway, I'm happy abt a possible Sethos Scara friendship 😊

[shadowslocked]

Pomme: Dadboyhalo feels stressed and unappreciated and just wants to hear how much you value him

Forever: I hear you Pomme, I’ll do something special for Bad

Also Forever: if anybody gets caught stealing furniture they will be arrested, as decided by the few residents currently on the server

Bad: thanks I hate it!

[speremint]

V appreciative of BnR readers today because while everyone's been leaving consistently great comments since S3 started with theories and noticing my little details, this one commenter just?? Holy shit, amazing theory, so big brain, I'm so pleased!!

[the-eclectic-wonderer]

A lovely fellow Golden Girls fan recently made me think of S4E4: Yokel Hero, and I realized I haven't rewatched it yet since I first finished the show, despite thinking it was a really good one upon my first watch. The time has come -- feel free to join me!

[valerian-riverheart]

My disdain with the british dogs grows exponentially for each world they're in

[pastafossa]

Pasta.....i was reading the angst arc where matt finds out about los angeles....at work.....girl i was fighting TEARS when he was setting up the lights for her. Putting the flashlight in her hand over and over 🥲😭😭😭

That was, at the time, one of the saddest things I felt I'd written and I may have gotten a little choked up writing it. 😭 Just Matt, treating her like she's awake, like she's there, her limp, frozen fingers nonreactive, but it's fine, it's fine, it's not that she can't hold the light, she just dropped it is all, he can just put it back into her hands, prove to her that he's here, and he brought light, made up for their fight, see, sweetheart? I'm here now. I came, and I brought light. It's alright. You can come back to me now.

...Please.

Please come back to me, sweetheart.

[redwinterroses]

Oh gosh I already have Such Thoughts around Loremaster Pix and I haven't even checked the tag to see what other people are saying yet but hang on gotta braindump--

His whole intro was about the old gods and titans dying and creating this world, their blood and bones becoming the civilizations that followed, which in turn fell and left their ruins to be the foundations of empires to follow. (Story nerd bit: so that means, I think, we are at least in the "third age" of this world: the gods and titans, then the ancients, and now the empires.)

But how does he know these things, unless he was there?

What if Pix is, as he said he wants to be, less a character and more a... a force, if you will. He is the past. He's a forgotten titan, a diminished god, a spirit of time and memory. A lorekeeper, a storyteller, a secret-holder... More and yet less than an emperor, less and yet more than a player in the tale. Maybe he doesn't remember it all -- diminishing can be hard on an immortal. But he remembers enough, enough to tell the story of the world and lead the current inhabitants to uncover the histories of their own lands.

And if I maybe headcanon that the Ancients were Empires s1, and this keeper of ancient stories could be a certain lost and forgotten desert king who vanished when his diminished immortality came sparking to hesitant life... you can't stop me.

[kimberlyannharts]

Cosmic Fury can do whatever as long as it doesn’t bring Zordon back to life I swear to god