#Berens is not a good writer

[suncaptor]

the thing about queerbaiting ESPECIALLY with things like TV shows with multiple writers is that it IS still queerbait the way it comes off, the complete package, the way it's marketed, what's sold, the end piece of art. but that does not necessarily mean the core people who are creating the story that necessitates queerbait are in any ways intending to queerbait or be homophobic. They can be! But often it's the opposite. An individual may not be queerbaiting, but that doesn't mean what is produced doesn't end up being queerbait. Which also means some meaningful pieces of lgbt+ story line and queercoding exist in media that ends up as queerbait. This can be true without disregarding the point & intention of queerbaiting as a concept that very much does exist.

[mybrainproblems]

.

[dotthings]

Here's a clip of more from Misha's panel and he confirmed Robert Berens intentionally wrote that confession to mean romantic love not love in a "love ya bro" kind of way, confirmed Berens was going to leave the show for the final season but stayed so he could see that storyline through, confirmed that there were "stages" to how Destiel was treated in the show, it started out with fandom viewpoints, and then some winks and nods done by the show, and then eventually the writers were working in hints in that direction, he confirmed that yes he and Jensen discussed it, confirmed at a certain point they started playing into it more deliberately (seemingly in pace with the writers and the story hints) and reiterated he was really stunned that they were able to give Cas an open love declaration like that.

This is confirmation of writer intent. Confirmation the actors talked about it and knew about it and played into it, following the writers. Confirmation of creative deliberation. No this was not just some headcanon or fandom delusion.

People at the show, who make the show, were for it, and since the network was never going to let that be full-open mutually confirmed they did their best to convey it however they good. Snuck it in the back door. And we've already been told there was a lot of careful chess-playing to get the confession to air and they were all worried the network might cut it.

No amount of screaming and hate and denial from spnstanbunchanumbers on twitter is going to undo it or make Destiel shippers "delusional" for noticing, make it less canon.

The creatives at spn were on your side. This was not a queerbait. If you want to accuse anything of that, please aim it at the cw network and it's cap on representation and its queer erasure, because broadcast TV networks are like this. They are still like this, things do seem to be changing a little, as Misha said, things are becoming a bit more inclusive and open, but it's not like the whole system reforms all at once.

Cas being gay and canonically in love with Dean got erased in show-connected PR, and for a time, stifled on CE con stages. That doesn't make it not canonical.

FYI for historical context, the reason "canon Destiel" even became the major discourse that it did was because of how the show started handling it differently. That shift happened in Carver era. And Carver hired Berens.

[sweet-s0rr0w]

Vintage Drarry Fics

Thought I'd put together a list of some of the old Drarry 'classics' of my teenage years, for anyone interested. All posted between 2001-2006, compiled using my (bad) memory, a lot of googling, fanlore.org and numerous different LJ rec accounts (including the incredible @capiturecs). I checked as best I could, but if anyone knows of any fics that their author doesn't want to be shared, please let me know and I will of course remove.

Please also note that these fics are of their era, when attitudes may have been different, and they may not all be grammatically perfect. I haven't reread all, as my own tastes have changed, but most importantly do note that they may not be tagged - don't blame me when, for example, Harry dies tragically on a rooftop at sunrise...

Hogwarts Era (mostly 5th-7th year)

A Thousand Beautiful Things by Duinn Fionn/geoviki (M, 105k)

Draco Malfoy struggles with changed fortunes, shifted alliances, an ugly war, and an unusual spell, with the help of a concerned professor, an insightful house-elf, and an unexpected Gryffindor friend.

All Bets Are Off by Allegra (R, 53k)

I am SICK of Good-little-innocent!Harry...Enter Playboy!Harry and his Overinflated Ego, a challenge, a bet, a couple of Really Cunning Plans - and there you have it, "Forty days and forty nights", Hogwarts style. Mayhem ensues! 

Angels and Devils by beren (E, 52k)

Harry defeated Voldemort and his act of heroism is famous throughout the wizarding world. He's trying to finish his final year at Hogwarts in peace, but, thanks to the method he chose to destroy The Dark Lord, something peculiar is happening to him, something he never would have expected. It's all rather embarrassing and making his life very complicated.

Artful Facade by Sky Sorceress (T, 66k)

Sometimes you fly too close to the sun and lose your wings. With sixth year approaching, the danger Harry seeks can be found only in the form of Draco Malfoy. What follows is a twist in the line between hatred, love, and need.

Beautiful World by Cinnamon/Lissadiane (M, 70k)

Harry finds out he's going to die on his 16th birthday. He embarks on a journey of self-destructive behaviour and drags Draco along for the ride. 

Beneath You by Cinnamon/Lissadiane (M, 113k)

Draco had no idea that the repercussions of stealing Potter's journal and shoving it down the back of his trousers would be so extreme.

Bond by AnnaFugazzi (M, 173k)

It seems 95% of H/D writers feel compelled to write a "Harry And Draco Are Forced To Be Together By Something Beyond Their Control And Then Unlikely Stuff Happens That Leads To Twoo Wuv" story. Count me among the 95% ;)

Checkmate by Naadi Moonfeather (T, 245k)

Draco has the perfect plan to get Harry Potter and challenges him to a game of Dare Chess. But is it love, or betrayal, he has in mind?

The Cicatrix Cycle by Ivy Blossom (NC-17, long!)

Three parts: Origins, Haven, Belong

Draco In Darkness by Plumeria (T, 41k)

Following an accident in his seventh year, Draco loses his eyesight. After Harry elbows his way into Draco's dark world, both boys find themselves in a strange new friendship, and they each learn new ways to see each other … and themselves.

Eclipse by PhoenixSong/Mijan (T, 287k)

"You're dead, Potter... I'm going to make you pay..." Draco swore his revenge on Harry for Lucius's imprisonment, and Harry all but laughed at him. But Draco is planning more than schoolyard pranks this time. The old rivalry turns deadly when Draco abducts Harry for Voldemort. It's the perfect plan, guaranteeing revenge, power, and prestige, all in one blow. But, when Draco's world turns upside down, the fight to save himself and Harry begins, and the battle will take them both through hell and back. If they come back. 

Friend Like Me by Lady Vader (M, 11k)

Draco's rendition of the love story that never was.

How Harry Potter Got His Groove Back by Durendal/Eleveninches (R, 12k)

Snape tries to hang himself, Draco enters an alternate reality, and Harry Gets a Clue. Humor, SLASH, naughty language, and other Evil Things. Harry/Draco, Snape/James/Lucius.

Irresistible Poison by Rhysenn (PG-13, 124k)

Under the influence of a love potion, Draco learns that poison doesn't always bring death -- there are other ways to suffer and live. Chemical emotion runs feverish as Harry and Draco discover the intoxication of love.

Lettered by pir8fancier (M, 7.8k)

Harry has a secret penpal, whose identity is as plain as the nose on his face. Except he's not wearing his glasses.

Love Under Will by Aja (R, 116k)

In their 5th year, Harry and Draco choose to be with one another; but the story--and the battle-- is just beginning...

playing the game, living the lie by Abaddon (R, 159k)

Set in Sixth Year, both the wizarding and Muggle worlds are threatened as Voldemort plans a final revenge. Past, present and future collide as all must consider where their loyalties lie; who they are, and who they want to be. Amidst it all, Harry and Draco begin a dangerous journey of understanding. Is it possible to leave everything you thought you were behind?

Resolution by Frances Potter (R, 322k)

When you've spent six years fighting evil, all you really want is a quiet time. But when your name is Harry Potter the chances of that are very slim. A series of vignettes chronicling Harry's final six months at Hogwarts. Exams, friends, lovers, Quidditch, the war and Draco all conspire to make the year end seem a very long way away.

Seamus is Seamus and You are Yourself by Ari Munami (PG-13, 31k)

Harry goes through some er... changes in his Sixth Year and everyone, including Draco Malfoy, sits up and takes notice.

Snakes and Lions by GatewayGirl (M, 139k)

When Ron and Hermione get together, they notice only each other. A nightmare prompts Harry to return alone to the empty Chamber of Secrets, and leads to a new look at an old enemy. Harry enjoys the company, but with Bellatrix Lestrange actively hunting him, how far can he trust a Death Eater's son?

Something Impossible by epicylical/Cassandra Claire (PG, 6.4k)

As punishment for an act of vandalism, Draco is forced to perform three tasks to win Harry's forgiveness - only they don't turn out to be exactly the kind of tasks he'd been expecting. With wet shirtless Draco, paint-covered Harry, and Proust-reading Goyle.

Transformation by amalin (E, 98k)

In Harry's sixth year at Hogwarts, he must face the consequences of the attack on the Department of Mysteries and the effects of Voldemort's return. And in doing so, he finds that even your enemies can teach you valuable lessons—about the world, and about yourself.

Walking the Line by SilentAuror (E, 179k)

Sixth year is over and Draco Malfoy is on the run. The war is on and an unwanted assignment is forced upon him by the only people he trusts - and a one-time arch-enemy just may be out to kill him.

Post-Hogwarts

Adagio in G Minor by furiosity (NC-17, 18k)

Seven years after Hogwarts and the war, life continues in the wizarding world. Draco Malfoy is rich, bored, and slightly jaded. Harry Potter is famous, busy, and somewhat disillusioned. They've not seen each other since school ended. What would happen if they were to cross paths again? What if it involved music?

Big Dick, Come Quick [PDF] by Calanthe (NC-17, 204k)

Draco’s got a theory. About sex. And after much searching for the right candidate, it appears that only Harry Potter, his life long enemy, can help him test it out.

Draco's Escort Service by Cheryl Dyson/dysonrules (15, 12k)

Draco's job is to escort travelers through the dangerous, war-torn countryside. Harry Potter is forced to hire him, but his destination isn't quite what Draco expected.

Left My Heart by Emma Grant (E, 85k)

Auror Draco Malfoy has disappeared, and Harry Potter has been sent to San Francisco to find him. 

Malfoy, P.I. by Nancy (R, 60k)

"I'm Draco Malfoy, private investigator. I've seen a lot--I mean a lot, and I'm like sweet seventeen a lot. I thought I'd seen it all, until a pair of green eyes stepped into my office." A noir AU set in L.A. where passion and magic collide. Slashy and sexy.

Queen of Hearts by scoradh (E, 65k)

A spectre is haunting Harry - the responsibility of his destiny. It looms over his future and, more importantly, over the future of his friends. Harry is determined to exorcise this spectre for the greater good, but on the way, he enters into a few unholy alliances.

Tissue of Silver by fearlessdiva (R, 76k)

A love story concerning possessed furniture, black silk pyjamas, courtroom drama, premonitions of doom, assassination attempts, Death Eater yoga, absinthe, bare feet and a sensible werewolf.

Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by November Snowflake (M, 58k)

When the long-missing Draco Malfoy turns up at a Ministry field hospital with amnesia, bitter Auror Harry Potter must confront the shadows of their shared past to shed light on a potentially deadly mystery.

Transfigurations by Resonant (E, 71k)

Five years after Voldemort's defeat, Harry returns to England to help re-open Hogwarts.

[castiellesbian]

this isn't really about who the best writer is but rather whose version of Dean you like the best. like Robbie tends to use a nerdy Dean, Adam Glass focuses more on how Dean is good with kids, etc

also not including Edlund or Kripke for any of these because that's too easy sorry

[kiteblue42]

Is Eric Kripke America’s Tolkien?

So I started Supernatural for the first time around 6 months ago for which I blame Tumblr entirely (where do I claim compensation?). In fact it’s very good and fun and I can’t believe I missed it when it was live.

Ok so bear with me I’ve been sick for a few days a combination of high temperature plus rings of power trailer drop may be making me delusional, but I got to thinking … why did this show have such a hold not just on this site, but also on so many fan artists and fan fic writers. (I mean it has a strangle hold on Ao3)?

Then the RoP trailer dropped and I got to thinking is it because it world builds from a US stand point like Tolkien world built from a European standpoint?

Then because I am sick and can’t sleep I am sharing my stream of consciousness o: Kripke as Tolkien, Sam as Sam, John Winchester as Gandalf, Castiel as Beleg and Dean as Turin Turambar - and maybe now I’ve got this out of my head I’ll feel better….:

I attempted to put this under a cut so hope it worked!

:readmore:

Source material

Most modern fantasy stands on the shoulders of JRR Tolkien who basically ingested a ton of European myths and languages (with focus on Northern Europe) and spat out the middle earth legendarium.

Eric Kripke (plus writing team) seems to have ingested a ton of US urban myths and US pop culture and spat out “Supernatural-verse”. Because it is *US myth making* it is distinct from a lot of other US writing that builds off Tolkien and / or European myth arcs (I’m looking at you Star Wars, Westeros etc).

And the themes and sensibilities therefore pulled out by Kripke are *not* the same as Tolkien’s themes and sensibilities. This makes it different to a lot of modern genre fiction (in whatever form) that either builds on or seeks to subvert the themes in Tolkien’s work.

(There’s also a lot of genre fiction that is satire or allegory for the real world, but that is another category to me and not really world building in the same way - incidentally the Boys fits into that category along with Good Omens).

Both ofc back end off the Bible but this is English literature based story telling and no one escapes the Bible or the bard.

Structure

We usually think of Tolkien in terms of:

(1) Hobbit - entry level nicely structured “there and back again” story for children, darker than expected. Main hero arc -Bilbo.

(2) Lord of the Rings - the pretty perfect fantasy master piece - very accessible clear meaningful themes and tidy /satisfactory ending. A number of hero arcs, but clearest drawn are Frodo / Sam.

(3) Silmarillion (&etc) - this is where the legendarium really gets built. It’s not neat, it’s not accessible, some of it is *not* a good read but the ideas here build the world. We have a creation myth. The “good” “wise” guys turn out to be more complex and flawed than we thought. The evil guys are extremely toxic but entertaining and bring the drama. There are epic doomed romances between immortal beings and mortal beings. Everyone messes up and makes catastrophic world destroying errors on the regular. People get cursed and can’t escape their doom. I can’t think of any real traditional hero arcs (maybe Beren or Luthien??). Note Tolkien didn’t finish this and it’s put together by someone else.

Now let’s do Supernatural

(1) seasons 1-3 - Horror procedural-

Entry level solid procedural hunting / horror story. Sam W is here in the traditional hero role. Dean is like your Thorin initiating the adventure. John Winchester is in the Gandalf role (he knows what’s going on and holds the secrets but is not available to the adventurers at all times). Maybe there something deeper and darker going on? This is your Hobbit equivalent very accessible but not particularly unique.

(2) season 4-5 - myth arc - lots of fans will say this is the perfect part of the story and a masterpiece of genre writing. It’s neat with clear meaningful themes and a tidy satisfactory ending. A number of hero arcs though Sam’s remains the most clearly drawn. Dean is more like your Aragorn or Faramir at the end of 5, Bobby in the mold of a Theoden and a Castiel in sort of Gandalf type position. Baby ofc is Shadowfax. This is your LoTR equivalent

(3) seasons 6 - 15 - the Legendarium- this gets a lot of criticism but it’s where the legendarium really gets built. It’s not neat, it’s not that accessible, some of it is not great to watch, but the ideas here build the world out. We have a creation myth (hello Chuck & Amara). We have hero doomed by the narrative (most notably Dean Winchester, though also Castiel). We have epic love stories between mortals and immortals. Yes I am comparing Dean & Cas to Beren & Luthien (!) though Turin & Beleg would perhaps be more appropriate (there’s a good case for Dean = Turin in this universe). The good guys turn out to be more complex or darker than we thought. The evil guys are extremely toxic but entertaining and bring the drama.

There aren’t really any straightforward hero arcs which is one of the reasons Sam fades out a bit and Dean comes forwards as a character. The stories are messy and tragic.

Landscape

Middle Earth - if you read the books or watch the movies or show it’s clear that Tolkien’s (sub)creation is a love letter to the mountains, lakes and woods of England and Europe. It’s also a cry of anguish for their destruction. Both the beauty and destruction are heightened (Europe doesn’t really look like this and really never did - as for the movies they were shot in anew Zealand and then digitally enhanced…) This is as important as the characters and plot - and stands out in particular in the Hobbit and LoTR where there are long descriptions of landscapes (or long shots of the same in movies / shows).

“Middle Americana” - it’s clear that as much importance was put into the look of the landscapes in Supernatural as to the characters or story. In this verse the look is long open roads, beautiful mountains and big skies that are a declaration of love for America, and the run down small towns seem to present wistful sadness. But again it’s not real it’s heightened. The cinematography in first few seasons is particularly thoughtful (and perhaps Kim Manners is to be thanked for that). The show is shot in Canada and the motels / gas stations in middle of no where needed to be built because they didn’t exist in reality. Again the landscape - the open road, the small towns, the big sky, the motels / dinners / gas stations in the middle of nowhere are as much a character as anything else.

I could go on but I suppose if anyone read this far you get the point (and more importantly it’s now out of my head and I can think about something else!).

Ultimately it will take some time to see if this could be right - in terms of genre fiction Tolkien is everywhere and you can’t escape it (even if you never read or watched any Tolkien!). Time will tell if the Kripke verse has the same impact on creatives and audiences, but I just look at the A03 archive and notice how many people know what happened on Supernatural without ever watching it (!) and think hmmm these are the readers and writers of tomorrow after all.

[edennill]

Finrod Rock Opera listen-through:

(because I finally found a full recording of my preferred version on YT and also spent several hours in a train)

Yes, as a Polish person I feel guilty for listening to it, but I'm not going to give more space over to the issue.

Okay, I hate what they did to Beren's character here. He's behaving the way his greatest critics in the fandom portray him (but apparently considered right by the writer of the liberetto).

And I know the first meeting of B&L is hard to pull off, but I'm really baffled at the artistic choices. Lúthien ran off at first but she was never afraid after she actually spoke with him, and switching it the other way round makes it feel creepy.

Even if the "exchanging definitions" section is really neat (...it makes Lulu look naive and Beren badly informed, but I can stand it for the sake of poetic license)

The songs that I liked before are as good as ever, but I've discovered just how much I like Thingol and Melian's Duet.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN FINROD SAYS THAT FATE BROUGHT THIS CHALICE TO HIM (Are you consciously referencing—!)

I'm loving Finrod's Duet with Beren to bits. I can never get enough of the two being friends (and Beren is back to normal in this section) (but also it's sad😥)

I dearly wish the idea that "love is more important than duty/law/light and dark" was cut because it does not fit in within Tolkien's themes at all. Love is law/duty/light in the books.

That interaction between Finrod and Sauron in the finale... It's very non-canonical, but also if the other actually allowed it, Finrod would. "All-forgiving" indeed.

[hurremsultanns]

hello. you pointing the mary suefication of Beren Saat's Kosem made me ask you for an analysis of the relation of Kosem throughout the show with the mary sue trope. thinking about it, though, i wonder if the characteristics that make Kosem be said to be a mary sue are shared with her predecessors and successor. for example, like her, they have a stream of enemies, usually people above them, but they succeed until their tenures end because of history. they could be said to be mary sues, too, the ones whose victory is the end of the show, Nurbanu and Turhan, especially; but, to my knowledge, they aren't. i don't believe any of them are mary sues, actually, but because of the way in which their characteristics in common that are meant to prop them up are developed, i understand why Kosem is set apart. could you extend your analysis to the main sultanas of the franchise? thank you.

Overall I think it boils down to the fact that the writers struggle to write interesting and well-developped 'heroic' characters. Mustafa in MC is probably the worst offender in the entire franchise when it comes to being written as a Mary Sue but he is not the only case of this.

The problem with Beren!Kösem is what Kösem's arc specifically is and where her place is in it. Her story is a corruption arc that is modelled on a character like Michael Corleone from The Godfather. Who goes from wanting nothing to do with the Mafia, to becoming increasingly involved for the sake of his family to full on becoming everything he had never wanted to be. Since she is so early on, Beren!Kösem is written to be someone who the audience is supposed to root for. At times at the expense of other characters. Most notbaly Safiye and Halime.

This doesn't apply to later Kösem who is a far better written character and allowed to be much greyer as she progresses through her corruption arc. And it doesn't really apply to the other Sultanas in my opinion.

Hürrem is a compelling and well-written character and I don't think you could accurately describe her as a Mary Sue. She doesn't suck all the logic, nuance or interest from the narrative to serve her story. She's just a complex female character and she's allowed to be that and that's what makes her one of the best characters in the show.

Nurbanu isn't really a Mary Sue either. She's never The main character and if anything she contributes to the nuance and complexity that season 4 sorely needed. She's just a good character. Besides if anything the writers had a vendetta against her and Selim.

Neither is Safiye. She's simply a complex and tragic villain who adds complexity to season 1 of MC:K and her arc absolutely serves the overall themes of the show. And finally Turhan is simply a one-note villain and a real case study in lost potential. So neither of them are Mary Sues either.

[sonofarathorns]

i finished return of the king for the first time!

and i’m gonna get sappy about it.

• the first chapter was so good and the movie does an excellent job staying so accurate to the book, except i love the additional detail we’re given by seeing everything from pippin’s perspective. we actually get to know beregond and his son, and we get to know denethor better.

• book merry is such a badass. i love him so much. all the hobbits are badasses, actually.

• HALBARAD!!!!!!!! my favorite minor character, i only knew him from fanfiction until now, but I LOVE HIM. i do so wish he was in the movies, i know they had to make difficult decisions but i would’ve loved to see the dunedain come to the paths of the dead with aragorn, legolas and gimli.

• i have spoken about eowyn’s riding into battle as dernhelm, but i will do it again. how intense was that!!! and then theoden’s death, i was cleaning my house and listening to the audiobook narration by andy serkis during this part, and i had to sit down and stop so i could cry properly. and eomer’s reaction to his uncle dying and then finding his sister who wasn’t even supposed to be there on the battlefield… excellent depiction by the movie, for that part.

• the frodo and sam chapters made me thirsty.

• aragorn in the house of healing… 🔥🥵

• i love that we get to see how eowyn and faramir start spending time together 🥹💕

• lobelia in chapter 9 🥺🫶

• um, how come i am just now finding out that saruman’s and grima’s deaths are different? crazy! well, there’s a lot that happens in the shire after they return, with the ruffians and farmer cotton and rosie, which:

• ^ i knew sam and rosie moved in with frodo after they got married from fanfiction but their conversation about it was awesome. just like, duh sam, you’re living with me?! good for them.

• bill and strider, i need a minute 😭🤧

• the very last page-…i didn’t know it was the last page because the appendices are so long, and i was not prepared. i cried. and then i got excited because it was time for me to do my nerd homework (read the appendices). lots of names and places i vaguely knew from fics (hello elrond lore, beren and luthien, etc.!) but i finally got to read the og source material!

~

i feel strange and sad. like i’ve been there and back again… i’ve loved these movies since i was 11, and now i will never be able to read them for the first time again 🥺

lotr got me through a really tough first anniversary of a death in my family a few months ago - that’s why i finally decided to read the books. fic writers and fan artists have brought me joy on days where it seemed like all hope was lost. all of this to say, i love this fandom ♥️ and i hope at least some of you have found enjoyment reading my thoughts on the books.

[annab99awritersdream]

I was going to make this a private post, but I'm particularly proud of this edit and I think it would make a decent cover for my Boromir Lives! spin-off. I love the details on her dress and Richard Sharpe! Sean Bean is...quite something. This is how I imagine a clean-shaven Boromir clad in Elven garments to look like. And Julia Ormond is simply gorgeous. Boromir's love interest in [untitled spin-off] is my newest OC, Thalindriel.

I kind of imagine their first meeting to be very Beren-and-Lúthien-like (lazy writing? Probably. Most likely), except that she was also gardening. Singing and tending to plants. She sees him and either screams (she's never seen human) or faints. Or maybe trips on the racket she was using to clean her yard. It's not very poetic, but it would be very relatable. I honestly don't know how their love-story will develop, but I suppose I've got time to think about it. Their children, Erien and Boromir (also known as B), are featured in my current WIP The Lady of Ithilien.

As LOI mostly follows canon, Boromir is rotting at Amon Hen and Thalindriel is probably weeping and mourning him back in Rivendell and will probably make a later appearance when she visits her children in Minas Tirith/Ithilien (unless I change my mind).

It will definitely be challenging to write this spin-off, but I do intend to try. I'm not very good at sparing characters from a horrible fate and I've never written Boromir so...it may as well turn out to be a very bad idea. I suppose there's a first time for everything though, right?

Let me know what you guys think 😊

I was thinking of having Boromir live permanently in Rivendell, but I don't think he would purposely abandon his people just because he fell in love with someone. He's a good and responsible man. But then, if I have Thalindriel move to Gondor, it's basically a retelling of @lucifers-legions' Garo Estel with a different OC.

See? That's why it's hard. I have no idea what Boromir would have done had he survived. But I do agree that he deserves happiness, which is why I'm willing to challenge myself as an aspiring writer.

Cheers to you, my Captain.

[ananke-xiii]

As much as it pains me to say it (because of my visceral dislike of the BMoL storyline), “The Raid” is a good episode. So far in the season the BMoL hasn’t succeeded in recruiting any American hunter but Mary Winchester. We’re mid-season now, it’s time for The One where the BMoL seduce Sam and Dean. And Mary is the key. And Sam picks a side. And he’s wrong, of course. (in a cruel twist of fate, I’m starting to suspect I should be “grateful” to SPN writers for writing a main character who’s always so blatantly wrong. Like, without Sam (and Cas) consistently screwing things up we would have no plot and therefore no SPN, so thank you??? I guess???). Anyway, let’s see what this seduction is about.

Quick note before I continue: as per classic SPN, the ones that die.die.die are women and black people. This episode is, sadly, no exception. Billie, Benjamin, The Vampire Alpha, the “Death Siren” music producer + other extras. I mean, come.the fuck.on. Ugh.

“I’m not just a mom”.

Mary is this episode’s (well, obvs primarily this season’s) keystone. She came clean to Sam and Dean about her involvement with the BMoL in “Family Feud” and now she’s facing the consequences of her actions. Her sons (well, mostly Dean) throws her out of the bunker. Dean is pissed, Sam is… how is Sam?

Sam: Look I-I am pissed and – and frustrated and confused, too. But we've frozen her out for days.

Firstly, let me say that the use of the verb “to freeze” in relation to Mary The Fridged-Unfridged-Refridged-Character-Of-All-Time is… hilarious, not gonna lie.

Secondly, Sam is pissed, too, okay? But he’s not THAT pissed. He wants to hear her out. This is big because, so far in the season, Sam hasn’t exactly showed a propensity towards communicating with Mary. She wanted space, he gave her space. She didn’t text him, he didn’t text her. So why is Sam suddenly so interested in Mary? I think it has to do with the fact that she has clearly stated that she’s their mother but she’s not just a mom. I’ve talked about how Sam is subconsciously very VERY VERY pissed at Mary, specifically at her role as his mother. Sam is known to be able to easily compartmentalize events, things, people, feelings into what he can handle and what he can’t. He can’t handle his mother right now but he thinks he can handle Mary.

Dean calls bullshit on his excuse:

Dean: She lied to us, Sam. Sam: I know. Dean: For months. Sam: I know, but it's Mom! I mean, whatever she was doing, she must've had a good reason. Dean: A good reason? A good reason for working with those ass clowns? Sam: Look, I hear you, all right? But – but at the end of the day, she's family. We owe it to her to at least –

In “Lily Sunders has Some Regrets” Sam says something similar about Kelly and Jack: “at the end of the day it’s a mom and her kid”. I mean, this starts to sound like a mantra he tells himself in order to avoid sorting out his feelings. Of course, she had her good reasons, but can Sam accept those reasons for what they are while disagreeing with his mother and being pissed at her for making wrong decisions? Spoiler alert: Sam cannot. So, at the end of the day what can he do? He can play neutral and, again, Dean calls bullshit:

Dean: And this whole peacemaker shtick that you've been running, first with Cass, now with Mom, it's getting old, man. Sam: What's that supposed to mean? Dean: You're always playing the middle, Sam. For once, why don't you pick a side?

(And, again, it’s just hilarious that Dean’s saying this, Mr-Pick-A-Bloody-Side, lol, Bob Berens knows his references)(also, wait so is it Sam who’s stuck in the middle with them (ep12, Sam: “Mom... what the hell did you get us into”)? Oh-oh, yeah guys, Sam is very VERY VERY pissed at Mary)

Picking a side.

If it wasn’t clear, Mary is not a saint, okay? And the previous episode did show us a mother, Rowena, being cunning and evil and getting her revenge. You don’t mess with mothers in this show, cause they are not “just moms”. So Mary plays her “Sam we need to meet. It’s urgent” card and boom, Sam is baited. She didn’t send the same message to Dean, we have two clear shots of her text chats with both her sons. Mary is smart. The only good thing Ketch has ever said in the whole of SPN is that they [the BMoL] didn’t need Sam and Dean because they already had the best Winchester, i.e. Mary. He was not wrong.

So now the brothers are split and the seduction game can begin.

In order to seduce the brothers, Mick and Ketch must find out either what they want or what they need. To be fair, Ketch is better at this than Mick, Mick so completely lucks out in this episode, like he literally cannot believe that, in the end, he’s the one who’s succeeded in attracting Sam (he really, really needs to send a fruit basket to Mary for this). What do Sam and Dean want? Well, good question, let’s skip it for now. So what do they need?

Let’s start with Dean cause it’s easier and he literally tells us. He needs to hit something. Now. Oh, and he also needs drinks, plural. But, he hasn’t been able to find a case and he’s alone in the bunker with no alcohol around. (so reminiscent of s11 Crowley drinking alone vs Dean and Cas on a fake beer run, Berens did study). The magic can begin: knock knock who’s there? It’s jolly good pal Ketch with a bottle of great scotch, a nest of 10 vamps to kill and a lot of fun toys to play with. This is the perfect recipe for Dean but Ketch still fails at seducing him and we’ll see in a moment why.

On the other hand we have Sam, what does Sam need? To be honest with you, I don’t really know. Like, textually, Mary tells him three times that “he needed to know” and she successfully baits him and is able to give him her sales pitch so I guess she was right, that’s what Sam needed. And knowledge is a huge part of who Sam is, this episode in particular shows us how his knowledge is far superior than any other hunter and how it’s the only thing that saves them (well, that saves only Sam, Mary, Mick and the Hunter King of Baton Rouge ‘cause the rest of the BMoL is dead). The show is ambivalent in this regard, sometimes I think Sam wants out, sometimes I think he wants to keep hunting but in a different way, sometimes I think he’s more or less fine with his life… I mean, really, I don’t know. But the show ended with Sam getting out of the life so I must presume that Dabb’s endgame was exactly that.

Anyway, let’s go back to the seduction thing. Mick, by pure chance, manages to seduce Sam with the illusion of organization and method. Sam wants to be a part of it because he thinks they’re changing the world which is ridiculous because the audience has literally just watched how unorganized and unprepared the BMoL are. And I’m not talking about the vampire attack against the base, but we see Ketch going on a hunt certain of his intel but when he arrives at the supposedly vamp-infested motel he finds only one of them. So I think that, all in all, even if I don’t know what Sam needs I think I know what he wants and he wants power (the knowledge he has, the power he wants). He sees the results: the Alpha is dead, doesn’t matter how bad the night was, he sees it as an opportunity and he wants in.

Mick thought they had failed to “attract the, uh, top shelf of American Hunters. Like you” but he actually managed to work well with Sam, they worked in sync to kill the Alpha and that’s not something that goes unnoticed. A connection has been made between the two and Sam picks a side.

On the other hand Ketch’s seduction fails. Dean and Ketch don’t work well together, they’re not on the same page. Ketch reminds Dean that he’s a killer (“You’re a killer, Dean Winchester”, the same line Rowena uttered in “Regarding Dean”) and that they share the same “inclinations” but he’s wrong. What drives Dean is not a crazy impulse to kill but it’s family.

Dean: (to Mary) When I thought something might've happened to you, nothing else mattered. Mary: Dean, the things I said – Dean: No, Mom, you were... It's not your job to make my lunch and kiss me good night. It's – We're adults. You're gonna make your own choices, even if I don't like 'em. Even if I really, really don't like 'em. That's just something I'm gonna have to get used to. Okay, Mom? Mary: Yeah.

(I really really wanna ask: whose job is it to make you lunch and kiss you good night, Dean? 'Cause I know you've given that a thought and you might have an answer, share with the class, maybe?)

And just like that, even if this was an episode where Sam and Mary finally have some screen-time together and manage to somehow connect, we are once again reminded that Dean is the only one who’s putting in the work to establish a relationship with her and who’s willing to sort out his feelings about their frankly messed-up situation. Dean is growing up a lot, being in your late thirties changes your perspective on life, man. Ain’t nobody got time for bullshit anymore.

To the way things are supposed to be.

I love when Sam delivers his little manipulative speech and people fall for it. every.time. He’s that bitch, after all. So one thing is sure now: although Sam has picked the wrong side, he’s aware that they cannot go back to how things were, how things were supposed to be. This will be incorrect as far as the BMoL storyline is concerned (voice of the narrator: things will go back as they were, hunters and vampires, cops and robbers, a fair fight), but it’s correct in terms of Sam’s relationship with Mary: it’s a small step compared to Dean’s emotional growth this season, but Sam is also (slowly) starting to realize that they are indeed adults, Mary is indeed not just a mom and, more importantly, he doesn’t want to go back, he wants to change the world (voice of the narrator: or so he thinks, poor Sammy).

So yeah, good episode. The Mick/Sam-Ketch/Dean parallels worked really well (Ketch invading the bunker and Sam infiltrating the BMoL’s base is visually cool), the family theme smoothly underpins every dialogue, every character has changed (to varying degree) by the end of the episode and the acting was solid. Cool.

[mybrainproblems]

Because this feels rude to put in the tags on someone else's really interesting post bc it's basically a counterpoint: I am so intrigued not just by the statistical breakdowns you can do with a show like spn, but also by the fact that there are episodes that are overall 90% mediocre to bad and then that remaining 10% lives rent free in the fandom hivemind divorced from that episode. Or the reverse where the majority of an episode is really good but the last 5-10min banish it to the shadow realm. (come see my semi-controversial takes in the tags!)

And idk how you calculate for any of that but I think it's really interesting stuff to dig into and that sort of qualitative data / anecdata is so hard to include and yet so cool to pick apart. Especially going back and looking at how fandom opinions have changed over the years like looking at contemporary opinions on earlier seasons are so fascinating, especially when there's been an inversion of fandom opinion in the intervening years where clunkers become belovèd and belovèds become beloathed.

I do entirely too much back reading and digging into internet archive like a raccoon in a dumpster

[ardentpoop]

sometimes you guys don’t hate dabb and thompson enough lol. they knew what they were doing; some of those cut bits (and plenty of little bits that actually made it to the screen) were pretty clearly intentional ship bait. did they ever take it seriously/was it ever truly important to the story being told? nope! were certain lines written to be just weighty enough to please the intense shippers while ambiguous enough to not Offend The Sensibilities of the rest of the audience? yes.

also certain bits (like the “I love you” that was cut from that already cringe as hell scene in “goodbye stranger”) were only cut because jensen was like FUCK no. like thompson especially looooved to get his sick jollies out of baiting that part of the audience lmfao. of course he’d insist while doing it that it was meant to be “familial” lol that was part of the stupid little game these guys were playing.

I don’t like berens catching strays in this post because he was by no means the worst of the d*stiel baiters and on top of that he was a far more competent character writer in general than either thompson (embarrassing) or dabb (arguably even more embarrassing). genuinely one of the standouts in terms of the late-seasons writers put some respect on his name <3

anyway I know we really dislike this ship around these parts for many good reasons but come on. we can be more honest about the fan/writer collaboration on it than this.

[violetfaust]

The Broken Destiel Seals: A Semicomprehensive Unillustrated List

(So far)

I didn't complete my (self-appointed) assignment for Destiel Day, which was to compile a complete list of every time Destiel went canon (thus breaking one of the Sixty-Six Seals: when they all fall, the pale coconuts will collide), with nice gifs. To me, Destiel is "canonized" by persons/entities who officially create and distribute the show: producers, writers, actors, directors, other crew, translators, and networks.

Have, instead, this work in progress.

November 5, 2020, 15x18, “Despair”: Cas declares his love.

Then:

Nov. 11, 2020: Misha Collins at DCLOnline: “It was a long time in the making. It was really important to [Robert Berens] and really important to me. When he pitched me the storyline it gave me chills. I thought - this is awesome. This vindication and this expression of love - at the end - it makes it all worth it. I was really happy about it. You know, it’s interesting, there are some fans who are asexual who have taken solace in the fact that Cas hasn’t made this kind of declaration [before] so I feel bad that those fans might get a little bit alienated. However, I’m sure that a lot of them are also okay with this. There’s a trope in Hollywood of “kill the gays” and so Cas meeting with his demise only seconds after making this homosexual declaration of love fits into that fairly insidious trope, however, for some reason, that is, in my mind, not really as important as the declaration itself.”

Nov. 12, 2020, 15x19, “Inherit the Earth”: Lucifer, whose signature move is pretending to be a dead lover to get someone to let him in (done to Sam, Nick, and Vince Vincente), pretends to be Cas when calling Dean.

November 19, 2020, 15x20, “Carry On”: Bobby’s knowing eyebrow waggle when telling Dean that Cass "helped"--was safe in heaven.

November 25, 2020, the Latin American dub: “Te amo.” “Y yo a ti, Cas.” https://teamironmanforever.tumblr.com/post/637355024027090944/highlight-translation-of-the-spanish-dub-actor

Those are the first five seals, taking us to the end of November 2020.

But they were just the beginning.

December 6, 2020, 5x4 “The End” script: “I think the only thing we have left, me and Dean, is each other.”

December 6, 2020: confirmation that Dean was scripted to say “I love you” in the crypt scene.

December 11, 2020, 15x18 script direction: “Still beautiful. Still Dean Winchester.”

December 28, 2020, 7x1 script direction: “Dean looks down, away, quietly emotional—believe it or not, the following is a loving, heart-wrenched eulogy.”

January 8, 2021: Sky Deutschland describes Cas’s closest relationship as “Dean <3”

March 3, 2021, 15x18 German dub

March 10, 2021, 15x18 French dub

March 25, 2021: Before airing the SPN finale, Sky Deutschland shares Destiel reunion fanart. https://www.instagram.com/p/CM2hL42CQbO/

April 4, 2021: cameo with Misha reciting deleted bit from 05x04 The End gets published

April 10, 2021, Misha at Paris DarkLight Conline: The mix tape contained rock love songs.

April 18, 2021, 13x6 second draft script: Dean spread Cas’s ashes in a beautiful meadow near a windmill.

Note: from November 2020 to the beginning of May 2021, Destiel was going canon an average of once a week.

6/18/21, 15x18 Russian dub: “From our very first meeting, ever since I pulled you out of hell, I’ve been changing beside you. I learned love from you.” “Don’t even think about it, Cas.”

6/30/21, original script for 8x17, “Good-bye Stranger”: “I forgive you, Cas…I love you.”

9/4/21, Misha Collins at Memento Con 21: “Cas saw love in Dean’s eyes.”

9/9/21: the Italian dub’s “I love you” is platonic (unlike all other translations); Misha retorts with a “Ti amo” tweet.

10/15/21, DenCon 21:

April 2022, SPN Indy: Misha confirms that Jensen/Radio Company song “Watching Over Me” is about Cas

9/5/22, 13x20 “Unfinished Business” production script: “I lost Cas and it damn near broke me.”

10/23/22, Jensen Ackles at VanCon 22: “I had an answer for that in the next set up--camera set up after Castiel is taken and Dean's on the floor and puts his--I put my--my head in my hands--um--in that moment I did that not because I just lost--well because I--I-- he--because I lost Cas, but also because I didn't-- I didn't say anything--I didn't give him anything. And--what I had in my head was, I should have said 'I love you too' and hugged him."

Note: Someone in the future will earn their doctorate in psychology studying Jensen Ackles's tangled pronouns when he talks about Dean.

 11/16/22, 14x10 “Prophet and Loss” blue pages: “The world loses you, and me—I—I lose you too. And that is unacceptable to me, Dean. Unacceptable. Totally.”

2/25/23, JA at JIB 2023: “Well, I mean hopefully we get to see that at some point but I'm sure it would go how we all think it would go, it would probably be a big embrace and then Dean would say ‘Can we talk about that goodbye a little bit?’"

February 2023, JIB: Jensen and Misha write a Destiel song onstage

8/23/23: News breaks that the Latin American translator “doesn’t add stuff” and while he doesn’t remember specifically, he thinks Dean’s reciprocation must have been in the script he worked from. https://www.tumblr.com/blanketforcas/726452424930410496/context-for-those-who-missed-it

Those are the roughly 28 Destiel Seals through 11/5/23.

And counting...

[castiellesbian]

this isn't really about who the best writer is but rather whose version of Cas you like the best.

also not including Edlund or Kripke for any of these because that's too easy sorry

[lol-jackles]

I get people want their favorite character being in the final, but I actually thought it was a favor to the character that Cass got killed in 15x18. If Cass were in the final, he might just stood there. It’s a shame Berens didn’t write better script. He was never my favorite writer, but his Rowena and Sam’s scene in 15x03 was pretty good. I love Rowena’s “I believe in magic …” lines. I wonder why 15x18 was like that. Although I’m indifferent with Cass, I wish he had better ending for the story.

You have to remember that Misha was an aspiring politician. The politicians you see on screen only shows 10% of their charisma, the screen almost acts like a protective barrier. To meet skilled politicians in real life is almost akin to witchcraft, you're under their spell.

I sometimes think this is why hellers like Jaistel goes to so many cons despite numerous reports by fans of Jai looking miserable and lonely. A real life encounter with Misha rejunevates that spell enough for Jai to continue their agenda of grifting and fleecing people until the next con.

So anyways, like Robert Englund whom Misha convinced to write "Man Who Would be King" in attempt to salvage Cas's character ahead of the finale "Man Who Knew Too Much" that would irreparably damage Cas's character that the general audience would turn on, Misha convinced Berans to help salvage Cas's ending and provide enough ambiguity to keep his paying minions on the hook. Look how long Xena's lesbian fans stuck around due to Xena and Gabrielle's ambidous friendship. The difference was there were enough build up to Xena and Gabrielle to eventually have a canon romantic relationship. There was no same build up to Cas's confession to be interpreted as non-platonic, but that was actually okay with Misha. Just like his fake bisexual confession at the New Jersey con, he expect it to just stay in the fandom and never get picked up by mainstream media.

Misha would know most of the digital low-tier media like Buzzfeed, Mary Sue, and Daily Got will disappear. Even the online TV Guide (not to me mistaken for the physical TV Guide that has different owners) have scrubbed many of their articles to make room in their server. It's why Misha will only say SPN is about Sam and Dean in mainstream media like Larry King and in WB's SPN retrospective shows.

Lastly, we give that ~confession scene way too much credit and attention in an otherwise decent episode. Castiel was never a main character so his farewell speech doesn’t have the same kind of impact.  Sure a lot of superfans find his overly praising Dean was be OOC or non-canon compliant, but that speech wasn’t for them, it was for general audience and casual fans to remind them that Dean is still a hero because they only seen Sam acting heroically trying to protect people from the Snap.  Dean going after Billie looked more like revenge and it was at the cost of Cas’s life.  So this lesson to Dean is that it isn’t all about him.  That’s right, a speech that seems to be all about Dean is actually saying it’s not all about him.