#Hazbin prediction

[giantkillerjack]

So when Velvette is asked why the other V's aren't at the meeting with Carmilla, and she says like, "oh they have better things to do..."

... I don't think the other V's even knew about the meeting OR the dead exorcist!!

Putting my prediction in now that Velvette is going to make a power grab in season 2, and absolutely screw over Valentino and Vox! I'm so stoked to see it!!

[nightfroststorm]

You know what I want to see in a future Hazbin season? Some sort of flashback during the height of Alastor’s reign (think around the time he won Husk’s soul), some sinner just newly manifests in Hell, sees Alastor, says “pfft he doesn’t look that tough,” and then EVERY OTHER DEMON IN THE AREA BREAKS OUT INTO SONG. About how you don’t mess with the Radio Demon. Personally I’m imagining something like “We Don’t Talk About Bruno” except darker.

So Alastor himself doesn’t even have to interact with this new demon everyone else is already so afraid of him they do the fear mongering for him! Even exaggerating some things! I know we already have 2 examples of people explaining Alastor’s lore and hyping him up (Vaggie in the pilot, Mimzy in episode 5) BUT WE DON’T HAVE IT IN SONG FORM!

[chocor0se]

ok if/when alastor gets redeemed there is definitely going to be a song by charlie and i think it would be about like people and stuff

let me explain: so one of charlie’s songs is “inside every demon is a rainbow” and alastor has a song opposite to that called “inside every demon is a lost cause”

this shows that while charlie usually sees the good in people, alastor only sees the bad

so i think they’re going to have a duet, though it might not be a redeeming alastor song, that shows this where charlie tries to show alastor the good in people while alastor counteracts it with the bad

also alastor is like very manipulative too so i think he uses this “all sinners are horrible” mentality to sorta justify his actions which is probably caused by his backstory from when he was alive

and while we’re at it, i’d also like to say that alastor probably has this fear of being vulnerable. he always wants to be the strongest, except he’s not and that irritates him. he’s always smiling which in my perspective isn’t just because of his mother, but because he wants to show off how confident he is, even if he isn’t.

he also says in his breakdown that once he “unclips his wings” that he’ll be “pulling all the strings” which i think means that he wants to be in control of everything, as to not be vulnerable ever again

i think in order to be redeemed alastor has to be vulnerable for once, to stop smiling and let people see the real him.

[wisteria-winter]

Like I had a dream of Season 2 last night, and weirdly it seemed exactly like what Season 2 might actually be like in terms of reveals. Like it turned out Alastor was actually a fraud, he didn’t kill all those overlords when he first got to Hell, but rather lied and said he did, and began attaining some power over the years with that rep, never a lot but enough to beat out smaller names, that being why he was so dependent on smaller deals like those he had Rosie keep an eye out for. He wasn’t pacing himself but desperately trying to live up to the myth of the Radio Demon. And it turned out Husk had been more powerful than Alastor when he acquired his soul, and the day he did was just as stressful for Alastor as it was for Husk. Then Vox tried to have him join the Vees, Alastor turned him down since he didn’t want to truth of his power being much lower than thought being found out, they got in a fight, and Alastor was legitimately hurt but managed to hide it and leave before Vox realised, just as he did with Adam. Alastor then encountered the real force responsible for those overlords going missing: Eve, the first woman. Basically in the world of ‘Hazbin’, before Heaven and Hell, there was simply Good and Evil, literal personifications, concepts given awareness. Good was the first to gain mass, becoming God, creating the angels and then Earth, Adam, Lilith, Eve, while Evil was left a simple force, until Lilith formed the apple of free will and gave it to Eve, infecting her with Evil, and so she became its embodiment, God’s counterpart in evil. Who could be seen in the opening storybook in the first episode, Go(o)d a closed eye amongst clouds, Evil a red eye(s) and smile amongst darkness, I checked once I woke up to ensure that shot was real. So basically all descendants of hers, humanity, would have both good and evil within them: the reason Adam was in Heaven was that in spite of being a jerk, he never had Evil as a concept within him. So what neither Alastor or Eve would have known was that because of this, he was among the few that could ever kill her (Evil), and now that Niffty took him out of the picture, the only ones left who could do so are Lilith and Charlie, the only ones of human descent not to be infected with Evil on some level (angels not having the right stuff to make it work). Anyway my dream had it that Alastor and Lilith hadn’t really met, but once Alastor made his deal with Eve, and she got herself a representative, Lilith felt it, and immediately fled to Heaven. And we would find this out since in Season 2, overlords started to go missing again as they once did before, only this time Alastor couldn’t really claim credit. My dream ended before it was clear who had killed them, whether it was Eve trying to find a new rep (the process having dissolved the souls of most whose wills were not powerful enough to escape her, before she had found Alastor, who would have spent the seven years he was gone attempting to escape her mass, regain corporeality to act on Eve’s behalf), or whether it was Lilith trying to figure out which overlord was Eve’s rep and wipe them out, but it did feature Vox be killed later on in the season, and Valentino and Velvette had a beautiful mournful ballad in response to this, like with her being the source of all Evil in this world I could have seen Val apologists in real life saying all he did wasn’t his fault because of her, what her influence did, which wouldn’t be great, but the scene my mind came up with was (great). So anyway Alastor’s purpose would have been to prevent redemption within Hell from being possible, since it would ruin Eve. It seemed surprisingly plausible to canon as we know it: I was thoroughly impressed with my subconscious mind on waking up.

Oh, that's quite a delight

I too am impressed by your subconscious mind I can imagen something similar to this being fully possible

I do find that Alastor just taking credit does seem odd though, (Like he'd practically be putting a target on himself, by doing it), unless he had some connection and knowledge of what was actually going on.

Possibly he could have been chosen at random, just needed a sinner no one knew, or they could have had some underlying connection before he fell into hell.

Then when chosen, he wasn't really part of how it happened, but had a part in making sure that the screams were heard. I can imagen that he could have gained some power from the overlords that were taken away. So that when he was powerful enough, that's when he announced it was he who did it. For at that point, if someone did attack him, he'd be able to defend himself.

And maybe when he announced himself, that was when his support stopped and the reason he seemingly haven't attacked any of the newer overlords (for he doesn't have the power too).

And that's when his real struggle began, having to truly work himself up, but now without the extra help.

Meaning the power we see from Alastor is mostly just his and what he got in the beginning. Implying that when he says that he wants to "unclip" his wings, he means that he wants to get the support back. Possibly trying to find a way to force them to help him again. Maybe find a way to control them (like a puppet on a string)

I do really like the thought that Alastor is mostly just going on "Fake it till you make it” and is able to fool everyone in hell. Especially on the part with Husk, where he was truly bluffing and possibly betting everything he had obtained until that point. Yet, still able to win the soul of one who's whole deal was being able to gamble good.

It sounds like a very risky move though, so I wonder how many of those he did. I'd think he did most of them in the beginning, just after the announcement, to gain some extra power fast and prove to himself that he could do it. (Like it was some sort of test)

And then after that he'd move onto just smaller deals, to ensure that his powers were steady and increasing (+ wouldn't be easily overshadowed)

As for being hurt by Vox, maybe Alastor didn't start with small deals until after being hurt by Vox. Like being hurt there made him realize that he needed more power, but to not make it to obvious he focused on just some small deals (while still doing his daily radio segments of screams. (Something I'd assume he'd gain some power from))

___

I do also like the image of Alastor, badly hurt, crawling back to his radio tower, only to be meet with his 'benefactor' Eve. Her smile wide as she berates him over how weak he's gotten, "How could he have not seen it coming?", "I though you were better than that."

The it's like she's trying to get him to depend on her again, letting him fall deeper in her trap, and the worst part is, it's kinda working. Though he steadies his resolve and declines her offer, trying instead to gain power the 'normal' way (with a little help from his friends).

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I like your interpretation of the storybook,

It's a interesting way to explain why Adam could be in heaven despite him acting like he does. [ He never bit the apple -> never got corrupted -> free entry to heaven ]

And it's an interesting thought, that Adam would be one of the few threats to Eve(Evil) (Considering that his exterminations might have actually been beneficial towards her).

Though, as you said, him dead leaves us with only Lilith and Charlie as the only real threats towards Eve(Evil). Which doesn't bode to well, Charlie isn't one for combat and Lilit seems to be MIA up in heaven.

___

It's an interesting thought that Alastor and Lilith have never interacted, but instead the reason they'd both went missing at the same time is simply because they were affected by the same event.

Possibly, he had another fight with Vox, semi-lost and fled (but was able to corrupt the video files so all that was left was the parts where Vox was seemingly loosing). Then he was meet with Eve(Evil) and decided to take up the offer, not wanting to make the same mistake twice. The deal then being that event (that started the 7 years).

Though it does make me curious, why would Lilith flee to heaven when Eve got a representative? And wouldn't Lilith be at least a little bit suspicious of Alastor, considering how he seems to stand out from the rest by virtue of his 'origin'?

__________________________

Having overlords going missing being a big part of season 2 would be quite a way to start things off. I'd assume, at first everyone thinks that it is Alastor’s doing. Then, due to the fact that he doesn't know anything about it, he tries his best to not answer and is mostly just very vague. Until the hotel crew notices that there is no way it could be Alastor, for they were with him when one of the overlords went missing. (Though they are still a bit suspicious that he knows something or might have an accomplish that did the deed.)

___

You have an interesting idea of what happened during the 7 years,

Which I understand as after Alastor accepted the final deal he was practically absorbed by Eve(evil)/hell, becoming incorporeal, and had to work his way out. Possibly having to create a body/puppet to inherit (which would be why he is sometimes shown being a bit stitched together). So after being stuck for 7 years he finally escaped and found a sort of refuge in the hotel. (Maybe the reason he hadn't visited Rosie in a while was because she lives quite a bit away and he was worried he would be caught without an escape. Meaning having Charlie with would ensure some sort of safety, especially now in which she'd promised him a favor.) Though I'm not fully clear on if Eve allowed him to escape. Like, did she want him to go to the hotel? Like maybe in an attempt to find a way to heaven so she can invade and take it over. Also meaning that whatever deal they have would still be with them. Or did he manage to escape on his own, without her approval and traveled to the hotel as a safe haven? If that was the case, then what happened to their deal? Would it not break the terms to escape? Maybe the terms where broken and that resulted in Alastor falling deeper into her clutches. To which Eve(Evil) proposed a new deal, one where he had to go to the hotel and find a way to get to heaven. In addition, he should do his best to keep the status que of the exterminations. She doesn't really tell why, but he can probably guess that she gains from having them be a thing.

___

Going back to the overlords going missing and the possibilities of why.

I'm unsure on it being Eve(Evil) trying to find a new rep, considering that Alastor should still be in her control. Though I can imagen that removing overlords might be a way to threaten Alastor, tell him to hurry up. Like maybe she can't hurt him or something, but she can hurt Rosie. So, each time he hears an overlord has disappeared he always fears that it's Rosie. Getting more and more paranoid after each one. (Would probably also try and convince Rosie to stay at the hotel, but she can't, she has a whole town to take care of.)

As for it being Lilith, it does feel like she would have a suspicion it's Alastor that's the rep. Considering his public backstory and the fact that he went missing when she felt the deal fall into action. So I'm unsure of what her reason to take out overlords would be.

___

The idea that Vox will die at the later end of season 2 is quite intriguing. Makes me curious on how it would happen. Wonder if Alastor would have any part to play in it, or maybe Vox was one of the overlords that went missing?

I can imagine that the Vee's at first didn't really show that they cared over Vox not being with them anymore. Then they start cleaning up his stuff and reminisce about all the things they've gone through together. Possibly giving us a little musical number showing all the fun things they've done together, like watching sports and ruining the life’s of everyone in hell.

___

Do you mean that the dream showed Val's actions weren't fully his and were instead influenced by Eve(evil)?

(Do you remember how the scene went?)

Like in a way I can see it being true, but that's mostly in the sense that everyone is on average 50% good and 50% evil, as you mentioned before. So, he'd try and push the blame on her, when in reality he was just indulging in the evil within.

__________________________

Having Alastor's main goal being preventing redemption is quite interesting. Especially considering that most seem to think it's impossible. Which would mean that Eve(Evil) knows that knows it's possible and for some reason doesn't want it to happen.

Which makes me curious of, why? Having redemption could result in:

1. No exterminations -> Less power gain each year

2. Redemption = Good person is vaporized -> Nothing from that person can be absorbed -> Less power gain

Which I can see being things that Eve(Evil) wouldn't want

Still though, having Alastor help the hotel seems pretty counter productive to that goal. Realistically, if Alastor hadn't showed up, they would only have Angle who most likely wouldn't have too much fun at the hotel without the bar and Husker. (Just look at how unengaged he is in most exercises)

Considering that, maybe Eve(Evil) could use redemption in a way? Maybe there is a way, through redemption, for her to break into heaven? Like, when Sir Pentius was reformed, he seemed to have skipped the gate and went directly into heaven. Now imagen if Eve(Evil) was able to do that without losing the (Evil). Like, if she was able to get in, then maybe she could corrupt everyone? Leaving no one around with the ability to stop her, or something like that

___________________________

TL;DR

That's a pretty cool dream!

Like the idea that Alastor didn't really have powers and was mostly faking it during his prime. Though too add to that, I'd say it feels like he had to have had some help in the beginning, just to kickstart his fame and give him a good starting point in terms of power.

And having his purpose be to prevent redemption has some interesting implications in regard to what Eve(Evil) want and knows.

___

Also, Thank you so much for sending the ask!

Sorry that it became so long, (it's around 1900 words), but I wanted to go through it all, hope it's to your delight ᵔᵜᵔ

It's a really impressive dream and it would be really fun if parts of it became true

[fullychaotichell]

Can't believe I haven't read the new chapter of OSAS because I was focused on finishing these silly joke doodles pfff

Okay, so, the premise of this joke is that Lucifer and Alastor's relationship has grown so much without anyone else knowing anything about it, but they're also both sillies who have funny ways of showing their friendship and now romance, so I just wanted to doodle that for fun pfff

Also, even tho they promised to keep their romance a secret, I BET these fuckers would get themselves caught, like, they've been caught looking romantic a dozen other times just by Vox alone, not to even mention other characters ppfpfpfp

Anyways, @morningstarwrites I had a peek at the new chapter and saw we're back to team HARD, I'm so happy pfpfpfpf

Bonus:

[multiship-brainrot]

A lil rambling about the subtle perfection of Vaggie's design

I seriously can't stop thinking about how no other characters had any questions about Vaggie or her origin especially when you consider her design.

I know there have been some major retcons to her backstory, but she still is (arguably) the most human-looking citizen in all of Hell.

Like even the most human looking of sinners like Velvette or Camilla's daughters still have flat/no noses, horns, more prominent & sharper fangs/teeth, but Vaggie?? Nah, none of that. She's even a standard human height with most demons being way above or below average human height, except for lower ranking demons like succubus, imps or hellhounds. The other exception to this rule? Lucifer; the only other fallen angel that we know of.

I also feel like this really recontextualizes this line from Husk in episode 4:

As a former gambling overload, reading people would be a necessary skill for Husk, especially if he is only given a matter of one game to get to understand them. Luckily for him, sinner forms have a connection to the kind of lives they had on earth.

Seeing Vaggie's form, and her lack of more traditionally demonic features that most other demons have, it would have been safe to say that he assumed all she got was a palette swap & an eyepatch of all things because her opinion of herself was so low she already profoundly saw herself as a monster (which is technically true).

And I feel as though the deliberate choice to switch her old dress in place of a more uniform-like outfit speak volumes about her sense of self and how she feels she must have to serve someone or a greater purpose instead of existing to exist.

Just like it was mentioned in episode 3, who is she if she can't be of service? what's the point of her? And that honestly broke my heart.

Really hoping that the series will start to explore this aspect of her character and she'll be able to find out who she is outside of Charlie, it's what she deserves! Would also love to see her bond with the other members of the main cast more (especially Lucifer & Husk, call them the Alastor Hate Squad or the Wings Club or idk they have so much potential) 💜

[vroomvroomwee]

I'm a huge fan of radiostatic

The show hints they have a complicated past together, but you also said in a previous post that it doesn't look like Vox is pining for Alastor in stayed gone. How do you think their actual relationship will play out in the show ?

Well, I think the hints we are seeing of their past friendship are veritable and not our delusional shipper little minds grasping for straws. Whatever happens in season two it definitely will be emotionally heavy. At least for Vox, and dare I say I think it'll also be for Alastor.

Because, objectively speaking, Alastor doesn't really... have any friends. Mimzy uses him, and I think Alastor knows the hotel is apprehensive of him and keeps him at a distance as a colleague. Which only really leaves Rosie (who's also an overlord, but I doubt she's someone who would Alastor would die for or who he would die for) and Niffty (who's probably his thrall and can't be his equal as long as she is). And Alastor is a very extroverted guy. The only times his reputation as a stone-cold, heartless murderer is alluded to are what OTHER people say of him. Meanwhile, the people who know Alastor, aren't... that afraid of him. On a more intimate level, Alastor is very approachable and easy to talk to. He NEEDS friends. He NEEDS verbal communication, which is why I think his fallout with Vox hit him hard, no matter whose fault it was.

Now, Vox is clearly still pissed, and so is Alastor despite being able to hide it better. To me Stayed Gone borders somewhere between mortal enemies and exes who are biting at each other. And I don't think Vox is the pining sort based on his actions during ep 2 which I covered in this post:

(I think this might be the post i question. I'm adding it as a screenshot because tumblr was lagging on the link function)

I also found another post @moodooivy that really nails Alastor’s behaviour:

Personally (now this is just my opinion) I think Vivienne will continue the trend of "best friends suffered a brutal accident that was neither of their fault and got estranged then they hated each other for years only to reconcile and become best friends again in the end" that she did with Blitz and Fizz. I think a scene between Vox and Alastor is inevitable at this point. And I think it won't just be an emotional reconciliation.

The show has a limited amount of time at its disposal. And in any other instance, such an emotionally charged scene would have enough time to be fleshed out, to focus on the characters and their thoughts. But, Hazbin doesn't have that time. So, I think during that reconciliation SOMETHING important will be said (whether it's Alastor’s true intentions for the hotel or that he has always planned to betray them, Alastor’s dealer whoever it is had some hand in their split up and is planning something devious, Vox professing how much Alastor meant to him and how much he cared about him etc. etc. Or perhaps that he's never cared at all, and vise versa. Maybe they figure out Valentino somehow meddled with their relationship, or smth). It will be violent and intense, maybe a big fight where one nearly kills the other or an outside interference stops them, before it eventually subsides since these two can't keep a straight head around each other. And it's gonna happen in the last few episodes because either they both come out alive and well, which is bad news for everyone else since together they would be a massive powerhouse, or one of them dies - and the death of a fan favorite is impactful which would mean the writers would want to leave it near the end, right before season 3.

This is all me theorising though!! I love hearing predictions about season 2 and I'd love to talk about this in the comments and hear what you and others think 💜💜

[anotherferalrat]

Has this been done yet?

[chaggiehearts]

Do you ever think about how Vaggie is quite literally the protector, the guardian angel, of the Hazbin Hotel, which is Charlie's whole dream? You ever think about how Charlie is Vaggie's metaphorical wings, she is her Heaven and her purpose to fight for love? How a demon and an angel (specifically, the princess of Hell and an Exorcist) fell for each other in the most tender way ever? How they mean everything to each other? How the key to their happiness is each other? How they feel capable of facing anything if they're together? How Vaggie considers herself Charlie's armour but then when the actual battle came to be Charlie was the one who had a shield, the protector (probably because she learned from Carmilla that Vaggie's fighting style was reckless and she wasn't going to let anyone hurt her girlfriend)? How they never separated in the last battle until Adam killed Pentious and then they kept trying to reunite despite Lute and Adam's efforts to separate them? How Vaggie survived and defeated Lute because she was fueled with her love for Charlie, because Charlie was her whole reason to fight and live? How Vaggie never doubted Charlie's project and was willing to see it to its end despite Charlie being mad at her? How she would have stayed in the hotel even if everyone else had gone away? How Charlie just had to mention in Cannibal Town, while still angry, that the hotel wasn't something she was managing alone, that she was doing it with her partner? How long before her talk with Rosie she had already bought a souvenir for her girlfriend, whom she was still angry at? How Charlie became Vaggie's hope when literally her whole world turned its back on her? How Charlie found Vaggie at her literal lowest point ever and saved her, healed her? How she fell in love with Vaggie when she was at her absolute worst, having just survived a brutal mutilation by the hands of the Exorcists? How Vaggie was probably the first person to ever be truly thankful to Charlie for her kindness? How Charlie was lonely, with a stranded relationship with her father and with her mother having disappeared and gone no contact a couple years before, and found true companionship in this kind lady she had found after the Extermination? How they literally say to each other that they love each other more than anything in this world?

Do you ever think about them?

[natsuki208]

My Hopes & Predictions for Hazbin Hotel S2!

• A trio villain song sung by the Vees, since i heard that they’re going to star as the main villains this season. It’d make up for Velvette not joining Vox and Val in ‘finale’.

• Some episodes dedicating to Sir Pentious in heaven. Maybe we can see him either bonding with Emily or him missing his friends back down in hell - especially Cherri Bomb.

• Some interactions between characters that we barely got in season, i.e Charlie and Husk (I like the sunshine/grouchy dynamic) and Lucifer with Vaggie (future father/daughter in-laws!)

• Lilith not being a full-out villain, but more of a neutral character like Sera. Yes, I know she abandoned her duties and family for 7 years, but on the other hand, I don’t get vibes of her hating them either.

• At least some bits of information about Nifty - like how she got owned by Alastor.

• The new character Abel not being like his father Adam; or at least until he finds out what happened to him (don’t know much about him yet to figure this out)

• MORE THAN 8 EPISODES!… it will help with the pacing.

[pro-depresanti]

Since we know we're going to have more songs in Season 2 I propose we get a Vees centered episode and each of them to have a solo, it's three of them, we most likely will get three songs per episode, PLEASE, ONE MINUTE IS ENOUGH, JUST A CHORUS AND A VERSE THAT MATCH THE OTHERS BUT ARE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT IN RHYTHM AND STRUCTURE TO SHOW THEIR CHARACTER AND WAY OF THINKING AND HOW THEY PERCEIVE THEMSELVES, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, BEGGING ON MY KNEES WITH CLASPED HANDS AND PUPPY EYES, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE–

[jaggidart]

Ironically, the way I deal with the inevitable angst of the upcoming finale, is to create my own.

(Facilier voice) I'm not reaaaadyyyy! 🎶

(This is part 1, but I don't have time for part 2 before Friday, see below for the theory I have)

Part 2 (theory/idea/wishful thinking)

Husk can't be killed by angels… because his soul belongs to Alastor.

Cue Alastor to Adam: "You cannot take what isn't yours. 🎶Thou shalt not steal…🎶

(The Pentagram panel is my favourite thing I've drawn in years!)

[helluvatired]

these two dialogues live rent free in my head

like, why didn't asmodeus say "since heaven" didn't you know each other before?

or why didn't he say "since we fell"? are you hellborn?

maybe lucifer created them to be his friends, since they were part of the circus? could it be that lucifer created them like razzle, dazzle and keekee?

is that why bee sees satan as a brother?

or do all angels have a sibling relationship? or is this just about bee and satan's relationship?

i need to know!! i need to know!! i need to know!!

[ibarkatpeoplewoofwoofbitch]

Nifty information.

1: she gets called a slut by baxter

2: she worked for Baxter making her love him

3:she hates goodboys and pedos (as anyone would)

4: she's bilingual

5:she's Japanese

[emmajh97]

Betrayal

"How could you...?!"

[teeth-cable]

I don't know how to feel about Viv not mentioning historical events in Hazbin.

On one hand, I can respect that she probably had the foresight to realize she isn't responsible enough to write those topics, but on the other hand, it feels off.

Beside still referencing time periods through the character designs (Vox's retro TV head and Val's 70s pimp uniform) and Helluva Boss referencing modern pop culture memes, there's the fact that the majority of HH cast are POC characters who lived during the 20th century.

It's strange not to mentioned what those community went though during those times, seeing how those events were big historical moments that changed and shaped many POC communities forever. Ex: Niffty would realistically grown up in an incarceration camp during her teen years, or how the Harlem Renaissance would have helped Alastor as it did for many black entrepreneurs at the time, etc.

It feels like an erasure of history, as well as, the characters' identities. It's just weird not to even acknowledge what struggles or victories these POC characters would have goes through for a show trying to be "serious" and "deep".

Also, HB explores (albeit badly) themes of racism, discrimination, classism, cultural taboos of interracial relationships, inequity, prosecutorial misconduct, and other systemic and social issues that people of color faced and fought against or for during the 20th century. If Viv felt comfortable enough to explore these themes in HB, I don't know why they couldn't be explored in HH too, especially since they're more applicable in HH than HB.