#I am Also still thinking about it from a meta perspective

[tmae3114]

I’m thinking about the fact that the Fissure’s wildlife is broadly analogous to that of Greenguard again because

We’ve encountered gorillaphants, seed spitters, tuskmongers, and togs, and we’ve seen vultragons in the distance. These are all very distinctly creatures of Greenguard, specifically. And their presence there, mutated as they are, suggests that these were the creatures who lived in Hawkscry prior to the Fissure. Which means Hawkscry had an ecology very, very similar to Greenguard

and we know that when Hawkscry was destroyed, most of Greenguard’s magical knowledge went with it

and I’m just

[shikai-the-storyteller]

I've been thinking a lot about Leonarda's not-death ever since it happened back in April.

("What death?" you might ask, to which I say: "EXACTLY!")

Back in mid-April, Vegetta and Leonarda were mining together in a one-block wide tunnel. A mob (a Petriman) got between the two of them, and Vegetta told Leonarda to step back while he took care of it. At this point, they'd spent enough time together that he trusted Leo to listen to him.

Instead, she was killed by the same sweeping edge bug that killed her siblings.

-

Vegetta's reaction here is what's really interesting to me. Unlike most other parents on the Island, there are no shouts or tears – only a very brief "Hmm" and then silence. He very quietly takes stock of the situation, saying "Vegetta, no" and wondering aloud why Leo didn't defend herself. In chat, Foolish says "It was a bug, right? LAG" to which Vegetta slowly responds "Yes, lag. Bug." (Despite this, Foolish still asks "WHAT HAPPENED" in chat, though Vegetta doesn't reply).

Instead, he creates a slightly wider space in the tunnel where Leo's body is. He continues quietly taking stock of the situation, wondering why Leo didn't defend herself (which is what necessitated his intervention). She'd been lagging a lot that day, and he figures that must be the cause, and eventually when Leo re-appears out of thin air in the middle of the cave and collects her stuff, she confirms that the lag got to her and that's why she didn't fight the mob.

Now here's where things get interesting:

Vegetta checks the tab list. Online, it's just him, Leonarda, Roier, and Foolish. He quietly tells Leonarda "The body has already disappeared, and without a body, there is no crime. Nothing is happening. Did you die?" Leo shakes her head, and Vegetta shakes his head too, and in the kind voice he uses sometimes with Leo, he says: "I believe you have not died. Where is the body? It isn't anywhere, no mija. If it was a mistake, it was a mistake."

Leo says: "I saw Diosito (God) pa, and I was scared. God, what am I doing here?" and Vegetta laughs, telling her it's alright. Leo says "No pasa nada (don't worry / nothing happened)" and Vegetta says: "And the people who are watching us have not seen it either." To Foolish and Roier, he messages: "Secreto."

And the funniest thing about this is it worked.

Not a single person spoke about it. I saw this entire event go down live and I didn't see a WHISPER of what transpired among fans. I can't even remember if the QSMP official accounts talked about it (they sure didn't mention it in Vegetta's recap of the day). We could discuss this in meta terms of course– Leo was having known lag issues that day, Vegetta's beloved by the admins so of course they're willing to turn a blind eye rather than slap a "?" over Leonarda's life on the Eggstatistics, but meta talk isn't what I'm interested in here.

I'm interested in q!Vegetta, the weird "god-adjacent" aura he's got, and the way the universe bends to his will.

Before he took a break from the server, Rubius seemed to be a caretaker for the Eggs who died (for example, he was present when Maxo, Quackity, and Mariana & Slime said their final goodbyes to Trumpet, Tilin, and JuanaFlippa). Because of his role as an "angel" and some of his dialogue during the early days of the server, it's not a stretch to say he probably came to collect any Egg who lost a life. I can imagine he did the same when he saw Leonarda die – that is, until Vegetta said "And the people who are watching us have not seen it either." Realistically, we know Vegetta was saying this to Chat (and possibly the admins as well), but again, we're looking at this from an "in-universe" perspective.

I wonder if Vegetta was aware of Rubius' role, and this was his way of telling Rubius "No. I won't allow that to happen." We know Rubius has a soft-spot for Vegetta (and we also know that Rubius was cast out of heaven several months later) so it makes me wonder if these two instances are connected.

Either way, this isn't the first time the laws of the QSMP universe have bent for Vegetta, and I certainly don't think it'll be the last.

Rubius or no, Leo didn't die that day.

Vegetta made sure of it.

[monstrousmuse]

I am not sure if anyone here has already made this connection or pointed this out (apologies if so), but while doing some research into Flatland/the 11 dimensions the other day, I discovered something pretty interesting…

…

In the ‘Book of Bill’ announcement video, as well as distorted, synthesised background music and the Morse Code (which has already been deciphered), we can also hear several lines of spoken dialogue, the first of which being the line: “some other mystic dimension”.

Timestamp: 0:04

Now, this line already raises several questions - which ‘dimension’ is being referring to here? And why is it considered to be ‘mystic(al)’? Well, we don’t have a definite answer to either of those questions just yet, but if you will humour me for a moment, I have a few suggestions. Either this ‘other mystic dimension’ could be referring to Bill’s own homeland, the Second Dimension (which would naturally be considered ‘other’, ‘mystic’ and generally unfamiliar to us, the readers), or perhaps, it is referring to the Third Dimension itself, or what is known as Spaceland (Height/Up) in Abbott’s novella. I think the latter to be far more likely, especially with what I am about to show you. This is where my excessive YouTube deep-diving habits came in useful.

…

During my research quest, I stumbled upon this video of the famous astronomer and science communicator Carl Sagan (take note of this name) explaining the concept of the Fourth Dimension, as well as other Flatland-adjacent things. And lo and behold, at 4:37, what do we hear?

“And the poor Square has to say: ‘Well, I was in some other mystic dimension called Up…”

Yes, that’s right. The exact words that were used in the promo video.

To provide you some context, here Sagan is recounting the experience of A Square who, with the guidance and revelations of A Sphere, has just returned from a recent foray into the Third Dimension, and is trying to explain his sudden disappearance and newfound knowledge of Height to his friends. So saying, it is likely that the ‘other mystic dimension’ being referred to in the BoB video is in fact, the Third Dimension, since this is a book that has been written from Bill’s perspective, and it seems that he will be filling in the role of A Square in this narrative, discovering the Secrets Of The Universe and all. Although, I must emphasise that this is still just speculation on my part, based on the assumption that Bill’s backstory will be pretty similar to, if not a direct retelling of Flatland:

“Flat minds in a flat world with flat dreams.”

Who knows, Alex Hirsch may just subvert our expectations entirely.

“I liberated my dimension (…)” / “Saw his own dimension burn. Misses home and can’t return.”

…

Anyway, I have another little piece of the puzzle to share. The line spoken in the announcement video isn’t merely a word-for-word recreation of what Carl Sagan said, It is Carl Sagan. They used a direct clip from an episode of Cosmos. This has me giddy with excitement, because Carl Sagan, a man with much notoriety within the scientific community, and many achievements and accolades to his name, is known to be one of Ford’s scientific idols.

The level of detail in this show, and I guess now in its extended literary canon’s advertisement material, is insane. Do with this information what you will. Perhaps there’s a connection here that will be expounded upon in the book. Perhaps it’s just a cool reference. Even so, it is a very intriguing one nonetheless, especially with the tie-ins to Flatland, theoretical physics and Ford’s hero-worshipping. It’s clearly intentional.

…

(If anyone is interested, here is an excellent meta which provides a very detailed exploration and analysis of Ford’s respective connections to Sagan and Tesla.)

[antimony-medusa]

"There's just something about that guy that means I don't trust him"

Okay so, Phil has got the wrong read of Sunny. I'm gonna start off with that. He thinks they're a confident unconcerned material girl who is comfortable in the fact that their dad loves them, and potentially he thinks that they're a bit older than they are? Whereas people who have been able to see her one-on-one with Tubbo know that she's quite a bit more shy and insecure and young than she puts on! He's been taken in by the facade they're putting on, and I think that's part of why he is making jokes and comments that don't hit well. To understate how yesterday went. I think he botched the interaction with Sunny in the musuem and I hope someone tells him that, so he can apologize and fix that. And to be clear, as a phil viewer, this does interesting character work with Sunny as a sensitive child and I'm in favour of Sunnymin pursuing this line of lore. I'm staring with my little cube guy watching googles looking for the result when Phil realizes he scared a child, with great interest.

Because when you look at the musum one in context, my read is that was phil pivoting badly from an out of lore discussion into "oh hey I can explain something to sunny, who is confident and centred and knows her dad adores her" and then jokingly tried to explain the tallulah experience, and then we know from Sunny signs later that that went over like a ton of bricks. Mistake. However, when we're discussing it, I think it's fair to not have that understanding of the lore though, and to take a more pointed, villainous read of the lore! Go for it with discussing phil as cold and brusque to people who aren't his family, discuss Sunny feeling all alone in the musuem, fill your boots.

But guys, when you're discussing this as meta, I am seeing a lot of tags that are really really eager to paint Phil entirely and unequivocally as a villain and specifically cruel to children and cruel within the family, and there's an element to that that concerns me.

Phil, the cc, the guy, acts working class. He has an accent from a particular part of england that is traditionally working class, but he also has storytelling cadences and humour styles and attitudes towards challenges that are very familiar if you are from a working class or lower income community. I'm from an entirely different continuent, but the area I'm from is the sort of area that people make jokes about, and the whole way Phil acts as a CC is very familiar to me. (Note: even when he's talking about travel or stuff, he still has the "worked retail for a decade" mentality and pays attention to the staff and stuff and what they're doing, check out the brazil storytelling vod.)

And Phil's cubito, when he's not deliberately making a character like osmp crowfather, tends to have the mannerisms of someone who is working class. Even if you're not from a lower income area, I think most people can clock this, subconciously if nothing else. He swears a lot! He banters and roasts his friends and family but would absolutely do anything for them. He's informal in a very specific way.

Which is why when people pivot immediately into "why is he threatening and bullying children again" and "his wicked is showing", and "oh he's a evil stepfather/cruel stepmother" and "can we kill the child abusers now" I go Oh No.

Working class mannerisms are already stereotyped as especially prone to domestic abuse, among other ills. If you are going "oh something about him just always seemed like he would be cruel to children" maybe— push back on that one?

In the same way that during the election I was going "that may not be the play" about americans who didn't know what it was but something about Forever was just so angry and agressive (and they were talking from a perspective that viewed forever as a person of colour, regardless of how he's perceived at home), you might be talking from a perspective that encourages you to interpret Phil's behaviour with children as especially suspect. Potentially. Consider it.

And again, Phil biffed it in the musuem. That was a misstep that had me (autistic) going "oh no I see how you got there but you can all but see the sims negative relationship marker thing pop up". But I'd ask you at least to consider that it wasn't intentional cruelty, and that people can make social missteps before you jump immediately to interpreting their actions in the worst light possible.

[thecarnivorousmuffinmeta]

I’m not sure if you’ve ever said anything about this, but the first time I read new moon, the vote chapter, there was one bit that really stuck out:

(from Bella’s point of view) Edward grabbed my face in his hand, forcing me to look at him. His other hand was out, palm toward Carlisle. Carlisle ignored that.

Bella later went on to say it was hard to talk clearly with how Edward was holding her jaw. I don’t know if I’ve misunderstood what exactly was happening, but why did the entire family watch that and do nothing? I’ve read the metas where you’ve said it’d take a lot for Carlisle to realise what Edward really is, but surely that’s a pretty massive indicator and Carlisle actively ignored it?

Anon, you're hilarious.

An Aside in Which I Say "Look in the Mirror"

I've been running this blog for a few years now (a terrifying thought) and I'm both a) one of the most critical of Edward in this space (which is not a bad thing, mind, people are free to do what they like) b) often get asks in which I am asked by anons to justify why I think poorly of Edward.

This is on top of the thousands of metas I've written pointing out various things from canon, where I've presented many arguments, and anons still will ask me to make more arguments.

This is fandom, anon, relatively objective observers who are privy to information the characters in the story don't have. We know Bella's exact thoughts, we know how Edward has interacted with her in private, and we even know Edward's private thoughts for at least the duration of Twilight because of Midnight Sun.

AND YET, I AM HERE.

And you ask this as if it should be obvious to the most casual observer.

Back to Your Ask

I've discussed this at length in posts I'm too lazy to look up at the moment but the crux of it is that

a) Edward's a beloved family member and it's deeply hard to think ill of those we love and we want to justify their actions

b) the family doesn't see most of what goes on with Bella and are only told things by Alice and Edward with Alice being firmly on Edward's side

c) Due to his having previously had a redemption arc in which Edward came back unprompted to the diet even though it must have been not only humiliating but terrifying, Edward comes across as one of the Cullens who best understands that human life is worth protecting and just why they're all doing the diet.

This particular moment though, I'd also give Edward a pass if I was present. To touch Bella at all, to move her like this, Edward has to be extraordinarily gentle and careful. If he was at all rough with her, at all, Bella would be dead or seriously injured (with her jaw crushed between Edward's fingers, her neck snapped, etc.) Basically, for Edward to do this at all, he's being incredibly mindful and the Cullens as vampires are very aware of that.

Add onto that that Bella can speak, when this is a guy who's hand is made of stone, he has to be holding her incredibly gently from his perspective for her to be able to speak at all (and not have a broken jaw).

Also from the outside perspective, where Bella and Edward are in this romantic relationship (even though they just got out of being broken up) and they all know Edward's deeply in love with Bella, this looks like an intimate gesture than it does a "LOOK AT ME" gesture. It's not something any of them would do, or a normal person would, but they're also not dating Bella/convinced they're soulmates with her.

Add into that that they're in the middle of a very intense day, in which Edward had just tried to kill himself and is very emotionally fragile, Bella's now asking to be turned directly, the Volturi barely pardoned them, and Edward is coming unglued with the idea that Bella's going to be turned and the Cullens aren't at the top of their game.

They're just trying to get through the conversation where they tell Edward (and Rosalie) that, yes, they actually do have to turn Bella.

This doesn't register as physical violence to them, and I don't blame them for this one.

[hms-no-fun]

i just want you to know that i read... i think Most of godfeels and had to stop because i was not enjoying it. but i think its really good and i really respect what you do. i think it's all too easy for people to mix up "this is not my cup of tea" with "this is bad and/or problematic". they dont take the time to see the artistry in it, why it is what it is, what it might be saying beyond their surface level read and the kneejerk reaction to it.

i also wanted to note that ive always been kind of scared of sharing fanworks for fear of writing "out of character" - and ive also even been afraid of it in original works. character isn't real and concrete, so anyone can decide something's out of character. so your exploration of that concept gives me more confidence as a writer. i really appreciate that and everything else you do. :)

thank you so much for this message! i'm glad you tapped out rather than force your way through something you weren't enjoying, that's a very mature response and something i wish more folks would recognize as a perfectly valid option. in fact i think pushing through and reading long after you've given up on the material, so to speak, is a great way to wind up angry at a writer for having "forced" you to endure such a trying experience. as i've said before, an author can't force you to do anything. you can close the book any time you like.

as far as the tension of "in character/out of character" goes, i think a lot of people in fandom struggle with the fact that "character" is very much in the eye of the beholder. sub-groups form within fandoms based on identities, politics, sexual predilections, etc, and typically gather around the fire that is their particular interpretation of a character. but from within that sub-group, it's rarely considered "an interpretation" so much as the obvious intended truth of the text. it's that intoxicating mood of finding people who share a perspective you rarely see elsewhere, like oh my god, you GET it, finally someone GETS it!

in homestuck fandom, for instance, quite a lot of people hate vriska and think she sucks, with a vocal sub-group of that sub-group still actively beating the drum that everything about her arc after [S] Game Over is the worst part of homestuck. but i love vriska, and my corner of the fandom very much organized around a full-throated defense of her. some folks think homestuck did tavros and gamzee dirty and that this is a fatal flaw in the text; when i countenance these people, i am convinced we read two very different comics. who's right and who's wrong? there are degrees. i can pull out any number of quotes from andrew hussie about the importance of vriska and the weenieness of tavros, but then, authors love to say things, and there's plenty of stories i love in ways that directly oppose to the authors' stated intent. the debate can never end because we are only ever talking about the version of a character or story that exists in our heads, based on the things that stuck with us when we read the thing (however long ago that was-- which is important because i find a LOT of people adamantly defending their headcanons haven't read the source text in a number of years. as time passes, your perception of the media you've experienced in the past morphs and distorts. someone who was right five years ago can be wrong today and not even notice the difference).

something i've realized in the last year is how much godfeels emerged from a very specific milieu, not just in terms of how we interpreted certain characters but in our approach to analyzing and talking about the text altogether. i believe most of the important stuff in godfeels is "in character" in most of the ways that matter, but it's built on a very specific meta that centered vrisrezi and transness and radical leftist politics and experimental hypertext. really, it's a post-Epilogues fanwork even despite the fact that godfeels 1 predates their release by a few weeks. and i think to this day a lot of homestuck fans haven't read the epilogues but have read fandom posts about how terrible they are (quite a lot of which will have either been written by teens, by people who already didn't like homestuck very much, or by one of the regressive stalkery weirdos prominent in the homestuck reddit/discord), and that misapprehension keeps them in the dark about just how many amazing tools the epilogues introduce to the homestuck formula that exponentially expand the expressive possibilities of attentive fanworks. and it of course elides the fact that the homestuck epilogues are a story about being in your 30s. i think we'll be getting a big re-appraisal of the epilogues in 5-10 years. it'll be the "twin peaks: fire walk with me" of homestuck, just you wait.

so these readers see my version of dirk being an unhinged murderous dick to a newly-out trans woman and go "he would never do that." then if i point at the epilogues, they'll say "i didn't read them/they're not even canon/that wasn't in character either." at which point there's nothing really to say, because we have two completely different perceptions of the text. who's right and who's wrong is almost always infinitely subjective, a circumstance that humans are notable for being very good at handling in a mature and politely discursive manner.

so i've got an "author's introduction" to godfeels baking in my docs to provide some context about the meta this story is built on, the milieu it came out of, that sort of thing. it won't make much of a difference in practical terms, but it'll at least be something i can point to.

in any event, thanks for this message. all i ever want is for people to give it an honest shot. i hope you can continue harvesting confidence from wherever it can be found. it takes a lot of audacity and backbone to be an artist, especially when you have something worthwhile to say. remember that you're not writing for the haters, you're writing for the kind of person, like you, who wants to see more stories like the thing you're writing. they're the ones who'll get it, they're the ones who'll stick around long after the haters have lost interest.

[cornerful]

'It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish that they dared, and be shamed and unhappy. I think, Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom.'

If I had a copy of lotr I was in the business of hilighting I would hilight and underline this a hundred times. This is it, this is the thesis statement of the whole dang story

Plus the first part of this gives me a whole lot of emotions about the nature of heroism in this story and about Gandalf especially, none of which i can properly put my finger on right now--

Something about how the way this quest gets started...Frodo is all "I am pretty sure this is gonna suck and we are gonna die" even Elrond basically admits he has No Clue how or if their goal is even achievable. But they go anyway. And from an internal-but-also-fabley-meta perspective, that is the right thing.

They let the baby hobbit tag along on the world's most Evil Recycling Run because whether he really is brave or just desperately wants to be doesn't really matter, he loves his cousin and he's going, damn it

I'm internally dissolving into a pile of tears and I can't explain why lol? Characters who try with no guarantee of success, in jirt-world, are met with such grace. It underpins every word and this is just one example.

[bengiyo]

Hi!!

Quick question: Is the level of regular engagement/posting/meta for BL series right now (particularly Step By Step and La Pluie, but others as well) a typical amount of engagement for a show in this little Tumblr corner? or above average? (or below average??)

Is it increasing because (from what I understand) things are changing and there's more to talk about nowadays?

As a newbie, I am having a FABULOUS time with reading and seeing everyone's different thoughts and perspectives and insights and learning new things. 'tis excellent. I don't think I've ever enjoyed watching TV more.

However, from what I understand the amount of BL coming out right now is actually in a bit of a lul? and so if this level of engagement is typical for the majority of shows (or only good shows idk) I'm going to have to put some time management stuff in place.

I just want to be prepared! Because this is Awesome!

Oh, this is a complicated one. I'm going to tag @absolutebl, @so-much-yet-to-learn, @lurkingshan, @ginnymoonbeam, @liyazaki, @negrowhat, @respectthepetty, and any other old fans reading this to also weigh in.

I think we are a shell of what we once were. At the height of 2gether, Bad Buddy, I Told Sunset About You, and a few other big shows you were getting banger after banger in the tags. I feel like I've been writing more lately because I miss that era and feel like I have to directly contribute to fostering it with new fans entering the space.

On the real, in 2020 @asianmade organized fans to submit letters and other content and assembled books to thank Bright and Win for the work they did on 2gether. We even got confirmation from Bright that they got the books.

I think good storytelling begets good reactions. The more invested we are, the more we're going to talk about it. I think fandom really only works when we're all actively contributing to it in some way. Reblogging and leaving fun comments in the tags. Writing crack posts. Sharing clown theories about what might be happening. Making gifs. Making fan vids. I genuinely think that the experience of watching the show improves when fans come together to share their ideas and build each other up.

Still, there used to be a lot more of us on tumblr. I hope that we continue to be this invested in the shows that follow. I feel like we're about to turn a lot more of our attention to Be My Favorite.

So, if you're enjoying the experience of having so much to read, please add to the stream! Write your thoughts down! Love the shows loudly! Tag us if you write something! Message us if you have questions!

[mihai-florescu]

Putting a message i sent earlier under a read more, it has some thoughts ive expressed before tho. ES, of course

My thoughts as an EichiP... i view ! and !! as different stories in the way they're approached tbh, what i fell in love with enstars for was the character driven storytelling of one event seen through different perspectives, where you see the antagonist in one perspective become a protagonist in another story and can empathize with the entire cast like this. I fell in love with eichi's story of second chances, getting what you want and regretting your actions in the process, redemption, desperation, overcoming fate and asserting one's self into the story, saving a school in a dying industry that saved your life by giving you a dream; i consider it an arc fulfilling to the reader at the end of ! era. But we still had to continue... and it's not like we didnt get inklings of eichi's dreams of idol utopia, the idol soldier idea goes back to main story 1, but !! loses the charm of the original series through expanding the worldbuilding so much and shifting to a plot driven story that opens 10 cans of worms instead of offering resolutions. There's not really room to breathe if the stakes just keep getting higher and higher...

As for the colonisation plotline, it's been here since the beginning of ES2. The SS arc makes it obvious, but i remember even before, the talks about ES taking over from local businesses, trying to be seen as the standard, it was always the direction ensemble square as an institution would take. But the "antagonist in one story, protagonist in another" approach doesnt work anymore with such subjects. The guys responsible for this are your coworkers you share dorms with. I read the stories but cant empathize anymore, so i've been feeling disconnected from eichi for a while. I see enstars with eichi at its core but i didnt care for his center event, i read it, didnt like the ending, and overall felt off. Eichi becoming the villain of ! to attone for the war kind of loses significance if a year later he is a cartoon villain idol colonialist you can't even sympathize with anymore because of the magnitude of events. However i do think !! has done good things for some characters pushing them further or developing them in a way ! didnt. But for others...

I also have my issues with sci fi elements becoming the norm, even taken metaphorically or as hyperboles, when one of the central themes i love about enstars is humanity. Then again, i am a war era fan that relied on manipulating human desires and perceptions, and the fact that there were no monsters or gods, just humans framed as such, playing on people's fears and beliefs, it's a bit jarring to me to have them introduce AIs forming from escaped comatose brains (im minimizing the switch climax rn, i didnt even hate it as a whole, just this resolution im unhappy with)

It also feels like we've lost some of the meta aspects of the writing i liked, a certain awareness of being characters in a story and there being an audience. But im still struggling to word my thoughts on this matter. I felt it present in main story 2, even if it annoyed me at parts in its obviousness ("good thing we're not protagonists, no one would want to read about us" youre right aira you are not interesting to me. And yet i'll read your story to try and empathize nevertheless. I have other thoughts on aira too, perhaps for another time). I wish we explored a bit more what it means to no longer be the central protagonist, from trickstar's perspective...and brought back the successors topic. But i havent read every ts story yet so i'd be foolish to complain before really making sure i've checked everything. To me ! ended satisfyingly with room left for elaborations and imagination, but i dont feel like !!'s ending is really ending anything at all. Not necessarily bad since it's not like the game is shutting down, but overwhelming worldbuilding wise while underwhelming character wise...

Let's see... im not sure how to end this. Just a bit of a stream of consciousness as a ! fan who still loves enstars despite my critiques. Mainly, well, no one's gonna take away the stories that already exist that i do love and impacted my life greatly. And i do think !! had some really good things too it brought, or at least stories i hold dear too. Change is scary and i don't think it's always for the best, but it's also fun to see where it goes next...

[cant-really-remember]

This all started with an already complicated meta and I felt like mine was getting lost at the bottom (it is a lot to read). I feel like mine, even though it references the original posts, can stand on its own. I also want to put it out again because I am still fleshing this all out and want to write more about cult/abuse survivorship and GO.

I want to add so much to this from the perspective of a cult survivor (born in).

Important things to know about cults, cult survivorship. (In this, Aziraphale = she, Crowley = he)

Cults:

A system that organizes people around a doctrine, a charismatic leader, or both. Akin to fascism, complete obedience is expected - as well as complete honesty (or at least you have to be honest about when you “stray”).

There is a theory about the psychology of cults, by Janja Lalich, that is called bounded choice (also the name of her book). This theory proposes that the insidious cult system can, essentially, hijack personal choice or “freedom” by requiring members to make decisions in a wildly skewed reality where there is no choice that would be good for the individual and is often harmful to them. From the outside, these choices can seem irrational, dangerous, or just plain awful - but within the confines of the cult, which is controlling the narrative and truths of the world for members, these choices are aligned with the “highest power”, “greatest purpose”, or whatever the doctrine is built around.

(So much more under the cut)

Cults are often highly organized and incredibly insidious, with hierarchies that maintain the status quo and power, with written texts that shape the way members see the world, with directions for how everyone should think about everything. You are not allowed to come to your own conclusions and, actually, doing that can actually be downright dangerous.

It’s really important to understand that the cult mechanism of being in complete control of the narrative causes people to build their ENTIRE identities around this cult narrative. Any threat to this narrative (someone showing you the hypocrisy of the group, the potential fall of the cult or leader, tangible proof that the world is different than you’ve been told) is FIRST met with denial and thought stopping. “I can’t think like this.” At this point, the member can circle back and strengthen the cult narrative they carry by dismissing/fighting what they just saw. Or they can let it in. They can take it into consideration.

But this, this consideration, can literally feel like pulling out foundation stones of your house. The cult worldview is the foundation on which the member has built their ENTIRE IDENTITY. You think, oh great, the cult member can leave and join the world and be so much happier. But imagine, you are a member of a cult who tells you that the air on earth is unbreathable for “good” people. The only people who can just walk around and breathe the air are terrible, immoral people - so you have to carry around a tank of oxygen with you everywhere to maintain your “goodness”. One day, your oxygen tank falls down the subway steps and rolls on to the track and gets obliterated by an incoming train. You are standing there and you TRULY ABSOLUTELY believe that if you breathe the air you will become a terrible, immoral person and even beyond that, since you are now a terrible and immoral person, you will lose everything you had ever known. You won’t belong in your community anymore. Do you breathe? Can you breathe? Will you die? Will you lose everything?

This obviously seems irrational and absurd — we all know the air doesn’t turn you into a terrible, immoral person — but that cult member believes it with every fiber of their being. So when you present them with evidence or proof of the cult narrative being wrong or hypocritical, this is what they are experiencing. You trying to take away their oxygen tank.

Cult survivorship:

Getting out of a cult is basically getting out of an abusive relationship. But you are in relationship with an entire community and a narrative of the world. If you know anything about abusive relationships, what is most important in leaving successfully is finding your “you” again. The “you” before the relationship and the abuse.

If you are born into a cult, there is no “you” from before. This abusive, twisted, often sadistic and violent narrative of….well, everything is all you have ever known. You don’t know what it feels like to be a “human”. You have little knowledge of the “real world”.

Leaving a cult you were born into is like going to a different planet. You don’t understand how things work, what people are talking about, how relationships function, or how (real and healthy) communication is important. You definitely don’t have any opinions about anything. You can scarcely figure out what to have for breakfast, imagine trying to make huge complicated emotional decisions. And realizing those emotional decisions are meant to be made on the basis of what good for YOU. You have never considered yourself first, you don’t know what that feels like and in the past it has usually brought pain or isolation or loss.

Framework

I want to set the framework that in my analysis Crowley is a born in cult survivor who was kicked out of the cult, then goes on to do the very natural thing called “cult hopping” - where you leave a cult just to fall into another one immediately - his new cult is less powerful, less organized, and less scary. Aziraphale is still very, very much in the cult she was born into. She is still a “true believer”. They are both grasping at “the world” to leave their authoritarian cults.

The absolute MOST DANGEROUS relationship for a true believer to have is one with a defected or discarded member. This is the case for multiple reasons:

- The out person can provide a different perspective (NOT allowed in a cult) and can often see the hypocrisy, abuse, and control.

- Cults often have their own “language”, this may mean in a literal sense of having made up words but usually it means that words have double meaning. An out person knows this language and can have an much easier time getting through to an in person because of this.

- The out person is a living, breathing example that you can have a life outside the cult.

- The cult will have spent an extraordinary amount of time undercutting the “goodness”, value, and morality of the out person. If the out person shows any kindness or humanity, this can serve to undermine the cult teachings and control.

- And the obvious reason that “fraternizing” with the enemy can lead to shunning, violence, or even death.

In terms of the 1967 scene:

If you read the OPs, there is discussion of who knows what and when. The first, and I feel, most important thing to know is that emotions are complex, layered, and always evolving and devolving - especially if you have the CPTSD of cult survivorship. CPTSD often creates a firewall between the victim and their feelings. Simply, they don’t know what they feel.

Within this framework, Aziraphale firmly believes that he “can’t” love Crowley. Like it isn’t physically possible. Within the narrative she lives in, this is not even a remotest of possibilities, it’s against the laws of Heaven and physics. And every time Crowley shows her the hypocrisy of Heaven, we see the denial as she is desperately clinging to her sense of “self”. But we also see the cracks in the foundation.

Over 6000 years, the cracks have been widening and widening and Aziraphale’s self is beginning to be defined by humanity and Crowley. She is trying to leave the cult for “the world” because she is realizing that in THAT world her love for Crowley IS actually possible. Not just from the surveillance/meddling standpoint, but from the realization that the physics of “the world” allow for an angel and a demon to be in love.

All the while, she is struggling — and I mean STRUGGLING— to chose something for herself. She doesn’t understand what it even means to put herself first. Like again, I mean she cannot conceptualize it. Choosing yourself doesn’t obey the laws of physics in the upside down cult narrative.

Soooooo, as the OP says - the holy water incident is the first time Aziraphale does something against the narrative she has been brainwashed to believe WITHOUT some type of plausible deniability. She is doing it because maybe, just maybe she can begin to even consider that it could even be possible that she could have feelings for Crowley. She is very far from knowing she is in love. Here’s where the complexity comes in - I do think she is very in love with Crowley at this point, but she will not let himself even consider it because letting it in could topple her house of cards.

—“we can dine at the Ritz”

Another important thing to know about people in cults is they are, by necessity, very romantic and optimistic people. You have to believe in all kinds of crazy shit and make invisible connections and make meaning out of nothing. So her romantic “dine at the Ritz” is not only a “I’m really trying to get out but I can’t see a way out now but I really am trying” but it’s also such a “true believer” thing to do…she has probably spent so much time fantasizing about the perfect date in her disassociative daydreams.

She is planning the perfect escape but keeps putting it off because she believes she can game the system or fix the cult or find a way to quietly slip out the back door. None of these things are possible in a cult. You cannot chose yourself and the cult at the same time.

—“I’ll give you a lift. Anywhere you want to go.”

Crowley, like always, is saying “GET OUT. Just RUN. I’ll run with you. I know it’s scary and painful and devastating, but I promise that it will be ok. I want to leave my cult, too, but honestly that would probably mean I would see you less or maybe die. So let’s do this together.”

Crowley knows that Aziraphale can’t fix it or get out peacefully. He is begging her to just pull the damn bandaid off. Crowley also knows the soul-crushing feeling of your entire life and world and everything you believe being shattered to dust. So he is endlessly patient and empathetic with the pain Aziraphale is going through.

—pause, “you go go fast for me, Crowley”

Baby girl can see what he is asking her to do. And it gives her so much hope. She can see him holding his hand out to pull her through the door. But she is still not ready. She cannot, yet, do the work and processing of her identity being built on lies and hypocrisy. She wants to continue to believe in good — and by proxy, evil.

I don’t think “you go to fast for me” is about Crowley’s lifestyle or that it’s getting too hot-n-heavy. I think it’s that he is (im)patiently waiting outside her door for her to leave her cult. Aziraphale knows that he is asking her to do, but she can’t even fathom it yet. She has to extricate her identity from Heaven (the cult) before she can leave.

Crowley wasn’t able to take his time and slowly turn away from Heaven - he was ripped from her bosom and left to rebuild himself year by year. His different hairstyles and fashions are not only about fitting in to humanity (which he adores) but he is practicing his new found personal freedom (limited by Hell) and rebuilding his identity on a new foundation. This is definitely a normal cult survivor response.

Where we are now

Instead of jumping into a idling car and flooring it, Aziraphale is trying to find her identity while still having the comfort of the cult. This is also a very normal cult survivor response. Trying to build herself and her outside relationships up so that when she leaves she has a soft place to land. But this is a very dangerous option…as we saw with the end of S2. You can eat food, listen to music, do all kinds of worldly things but if you aren’t truly rebuilding your identity on different foundations and without the cult influences, you can be drawn back in VERY EASILY. The deal with the Metatron is perfectly crafted to suck her back in.

The last 15 minutes of S2E6 is so familiar to me. It’s called hoovering. They suck you back in like a vacuum. They can do it expeditiously because they know EXACTLY where your buttons are, your hopes and dreams, what lies you will believe, what fears you have BECAUSE THEY PUT THEM THERE. If you don’t rewrite your cult identity, then you are still operating on the script you were given by the cult and they can write a new exciting scene that fits in ever so perfectly with your disassociative daydreams. They know you because they controlled the shape of your world and then observed you in it for your whole life. They didn’t allow you your own thoughts or to ask questions and now they have the “perfect situation” for you that will seemingly assuage both your cult identity and your outside influences. They can tell you EXACTLY what you want to hear.

And you fall for it, because the relief is enormous. Being in the good graces of the cult while also thinking you can do the things you want to do is literally the “perfect” situation. It looks like the painless path that will let you stay in denial but also feel like you have some semblance of choice. But, surprise, it’s a trick.

I think the moment outside the elevator when the Metatron admits to the second coming is the absolute “oh shit, I fucked up” moment for Aziraphale. She really thought she would get it all but again the cult lied and manipulated her and sucked her back in. At that moment, you hear a miracle sound. For the longest time I thought it was the Metatron putting some “spell” on Aziraphale, but I have come to be convinced that she is putting Nightingales on the radio for Crowley as a way of communicating.

Aziraphale is not the type to impulsively turn and run back to Crowley — but I think she realized she needed to tell him that everything he had said finally caught up with her in that moment and that she finally understands what the hell he was saying before the kiss. So she sends the song to the Bentley (it is already established that she has a strong connection with the Bentley and the Bentley can be felt/controlled from miles away by those with a connection) and then gives Crowley a glance that says “You were right. You were right. I was wrong. You were right.” and gets in that elevator gathering courage resulting in a smile that, to me, says “murder hornet in the beehive.”

Thank you @paperbunny and @zionworkzs for spurring this diatribe.

[sigruned]

Trying and failing to be normal about it but listen, as hard as last episode was to watch I am convinced that drinking that tea was the best thing that could have happened to Ruby after everything.

This is true for the sole reason that Ruby coming to terms with who she wants to be before anyone can move on isn't just necessary in the abstract character development sense, but also the primary throughline of the volume cannot resolve without it. By it's nature, the Ever After physically cannot let them leave until she does.

The Ever After mechanically operates by what we would recognize as narrative logic and has a demonstrated empathy with those who are present within it. The physicality of the space is defined and altered by that empathy as we've seen on many occasions now (the rain when Ruby gets sad, the entire nature of the punderstorm. The acres exist as they do to facilitate the afterans' purposes, not the other way around). That said it doesn't have a will of it's own, it's a passive. The plasticity of the environment is prompted by the feelings and desires of those who inhabit it, and the world reacts in turn. It looks like nonsense coming from the "real" world but makes perfect sense once you establish this as a fundamental rule of reality here.

We still don't have a reliable source of information the claim that the tree is how the team gets back to Remnant and a lot of different perspectives on what it really is. From the fairy tale it is the way home, for the afterans it is rebirth. According to Jaune it's death (which says more about him than the tree but I'll get to that in a bit). None of them are completely wrong, I think.

The first time we see anyone 'interact' with the tree is in the herbalist hut with the smoke. I don't think this was just some shadow self vision. We see that the smoke is made from the tree's leaves. Drinking the tea swallowed Ruby up the same way the Herbalist was at the end of this scene. So we have an established pattern here of what returning to the tree looks like, and how ingesting the leaves call out to it, for lack of a better phrase. The important part of this here is the stark difference in how wby interact with the tree, via the images of their past selves, as opposed to Ruby. I'm not going to harp on it too much because better meta than mine circulated when the episode aired, but we're shown how the losses from the previous volumes have ultimately helped to galvanize wby rather than weaken their sense of identity. They don't presently need to initiate a full deconstruction of themselves to find what they want or who they want to be: they don't need the tree and therefore will not be able to find it.

This is in contrast with Jaune's stagnation while in the Ever After, but is ultimately to the same effect. He's spent decades cementing his identity in his guilt. The tree is death because he can't conceive of being himself without that guilt. (We see this exact same concept with Ruby's first visit to the blacksmith. "I'm fine, I can handle it." She's not happy with this, but the tree cannot help her change until she wants to change herself. "If you change your mind...") Until he's able to crack this image of himself, there is no desire for change and thus he couldn't find the tree even if he wanted to.

Between them all, they lack a desire or need for substantial change to their sense of self, and do not have the ability to make it to the tree until they do. Despite her internal turmoil, the narrative has positioned Ruby as the only one who can lead them all to the tree and ergo out of the Ever After, because the Ever After itself has made this journey one and the same with her journey of self discovery.

"The tree isn't a place you go, it's a place you know."

All of this to say that the tree facilitates change, whatever that may mean to those who find themselves there. Deconstruction can be painful, it means stripping away things you thought were key structural components of yourself (Penny's sword, the emblem, maybe even the cloak ???) to find what's left. I am certainly not arguing that Ruby is in a good place right now, but on its face, not wanting to be me anymore is a statement desiring change, not erasure. And change requires destruction and creation both.

So, narratively, Ruby is being deconstructed, broken down to her core elements (a phase of the process we'll probably see conclude next episode because she still hasn't acknowledged Summer in the mirror-). It's hurt, it's not always come from a healthy place, Neo's torture circus certainly pushed the issue, but it is happening. So what is 'Ruby Rose' when you look at what's left?

I don't know but I'm excited to find out.

Ruby doesn't have to answer that question by the end of this volume, nor do I think she will, but what I do think will satisfy the Ever After's "requirement" before it can let them leave is a desire to answer that question. We're seeing the story of "a girl with a lot of problems" in this volume. When the Ever After no longer has a role in that story, literally, it will physically manifest whatever it needs to progress that story.

Like, say, a door back to Remnant. It's that simple.

[vivitalks]

Last night I saw the Great Gatsby musical. Before I went, I reread the Great Gatsby book (for the first time since 11th grade!) to get a refresher on the source material and the original story. Having the book so fresh in my mind made seeing the musical really interesting, and now I am going to do something I never thought I'd do, which is post some lengthy meta about The Great Gatsby. If you haven't seen the musical, this post may still be interesting to read, but it does contain some mild spoilers, so I leave that up to you. If you also haven't read the book, godspeed lol.

There's a lot I could talk about here when it comes to the way the book was adapted for the stage. But there's one particular thing I want to zero in on in this post, and that's the "unreliable narrator" of it all.

In the book, Nick Carraway is our narrator. He's an unreliable narrator practically by default - the idea is that he's retelling events that occurred two years prior, from memory. But even knowing that Nick is probably not reporting all events and characters with complete accuracy, it's hard to know which parts exactly are wrong, or what might have happened in reality, because even though he's an unreliable narrator, he's still the only narrator and this is the only version of events we know. We're forced to take Nick as our surrogate and take him at his word. Until the musical.

(I wondered how the show was going to deal with the fact that the story of Great Gatsby is not only told by an unreliable narrator but also by an outside perspective - generally speaking the events of the Great Gatsby aren't happening to Nick, they're just kind of happening around him. Yet he's the voice of the story, so in that way he's central to it, and I was curious how they were going to balance that fact with the fact that Gatsby is functionally the main character.

I think they struck a really good balance in the end. Nick's beginning and ending lines, lifted verbatim from his book narration, frame him clearly as the anchor of the story - I think that's the best word for it; the audience jumps from scene to scene, many but not all of which contain Nick, but we know that Nick is always going to be where the action is, or that he will at least know about it. He may not be the main character, but he's an essential character. But I digress a little bit.)

The difference between the way the story is imparted to the audience in the book versus in the musical boils down to this: in the book, Nick "plays" every character, so all their dialogue and actions, their mannerisms and the way they're described and reported, it's all informed by the beliefs Nick holds about them. Whether he means to or not, his biases paint certain characters in certain lights, and because he is our eyes and ears to the story, we have no choice but to absorb those biases.

But in the musical, every character is literally played by a different actor. Nick can only speak for himself. Nick can only tell his own parts as they happened. He may be "telling" the story, but we're watching the story. We have the benefit of an unblemished perspective on things - we can watch the events the way they actually unfold, regardless of how Nick believes or remembers they went down.

This difference - between Nick as the narrator and Nick as merely his own voice - is crucial in how the musical develops each character, some of them fairly different from how Nick described them in the book. And there's one book-to-stage change - a fairly small one, all things considered - that, to me, illustrated this difference perfectly.

There's a line towards the end of the Gatsby book. Something Nick says in narration, after his final conversation with Tom Buchanan, talking about how Tom gave away Gatsby's name and location to George Wilson (which ultimately led to Gatsby's death). Nick writes:

"I couldn’t forgive him or like him, but I saw that what he had done was, to him, entirely justified. It was all very careless and confused. They were careless people, Tom and Daisy — they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made…"

When I read this line in the book, I couldn't help vehemently agreeing. Screw those rich assholes! Money does corrupt! Tom and Daisy ARE careless wealthy people! It was easy to side with Nick, not only because he was the only perspective on the situation that I had, but also because he said this in internal response to a conversation with Tom, who, I think we can all agree, is a major jackass and a deeply unsympathetic character.

But in the musical, this line is spoken aloud by Nick. And he says it to Daisy, in her house, as she's packing up to skip town after Gatsby's death. In fact, he doesn't just say it; he shouts it, visibly and audibly outraged at her audacity to lead Gatsby on, ghost him, skip his funeral, and then move away to avoid the fallout. Nick is angry and highly critical of Daisy. But because we're no longer confined to his shoes, we also get to see Daisy's reaction - not as Nick remembers it, but as Daisy actually reacts. And because of that, we're able to really see, and confirm, that "Daisy is rich and careless" is not the full story.

I have to credit Eva Noblezada for a phenomenal performance (duh). Daisy in this scene is emotional, grieving, and it's clear she has been trying to contain these feelings for the sake of her husband and her own sanity. She's remorseful, not that Gatsby is gone necessarily, but that she allowed herself to entertain the fantasy of running away with him, only for it to be torn from her. She is trying to make the best of her unavoidable reality. And then Nick tears her a new one, calling her careless, accusing her of destroying things and being too rich to care.

And as I watched that scene, I was no longer wholly on Nick's side. I understood that this situation was so much more complex than Nick's chastisement acknowledged. Sure, Daisy wasn't innocent, but she also wasn't the callous rich girl Nick made her out to be. She did love Gatsby. And she also had a whole life with Tom. She had a daughter. She was a woman in the 1920s! That's a kind of life sentence even wealth can't erase.

The way Daisy responded may not quite have landed with Nick (if we consider the kind of fun possibility that the musical is the events as they happened and the book is Nick retelling those events as he remembers them two years later, then clearly Nick's disdain for Daisy's actions overtook whatever sympathy he felt for her), but the musical gave Daisy the opportunity to appeal to us. The audience. Having this omniscient perspective of things allowed us to draw our own conclusions, and I found myself a lot more sympathetic towards Daisy when I could both see and hear how she responded to Nick's verbal castigation.

In the book, Nick is the narrator. In the musical, Nick is a narrator. But he's no longer the sole arbiter of the story. The audience got to make our own judgements on the events as we witnessed them. Every one of us was a Nick - beholden to our own biases, maybe, but at least not beholden to his.

[goingbuggy]

When you have time I would LOVE to hear your thoughts about post time skip buggy!!

Hi, anon! Sorry for the late-ish reply. I thought carefully about how I wanted to reply, but alas, here I am again, starting my metas in the strangest places. Anyways, here’s a seemingly unimportant question: Why is it funny that Buggy keeps failing upwards?

My answer also happens to be one of Pixar's 22 Rules of Storytelling:

"Coincidences to get characters into trouble are great; coincidences to get them out of it are cheating."

You might be wondering why I chose this quote -- after all, Buggy manages to escape most conflicts by sheer coincidence. Take the canon-filler episode(s) “Little Buggy's Big Adventure,” for example; coincidence is the sole reason why he ends up on Gaimon’s island and eventually finds Alvida, one of his future allies. But for as much as Oda is guilty of using coincidences to benefit Buggy, he also creates coincidences to get Buggy into trouble. Sure, Buggy left on good terms with Gaimon/found Alvida, but only after:

Suffering a humiliating defeat at the hands of Luffy

Losing most of his body

Being chased by killer fish/eaten by a ginormous bird

Nearly getting shot in the head by Gaimon over a misunderstanding

Being chased AGAIN by a deadly crab???? LMAO???

Buggy’s “luck” functions like a pendulum -- for every good thing that happens to him, horrible things are guaranteed to follow. This core aspect of his character is what keeps the gag afloat. Buggy is never rewarded by the narrative without experiencing consequences. In order to earn moments of respite, he has to suffer.

I find it hilarious when people argue that Buggy doesn’t deserve to have good things happen to him. Because, yeah? Duh. Oda loves having his cake and eating it too. It’s not necessarily good to play both sides with the audience when it can cheapen emotional impact, but Oda will absolutely continue to make Buggy both a complete joke and a genuine character. He has fun that way. However, he’s not going to help Buggy without hurting him first.

But that's a very meta perspective. How does Buggy view his own beneficial coincidences? He’s now an emperor, and extremely close to the One Piece/Pirate King title that he so desperately wants. But why does he think he’s being rewarded, in-universe?

His facade.

His devoted followers, his influence, that billion-berry bounty, his emperor status -- all of it stems from his fake persona and its snowball effect. He’s well aware of this. In fact, I think it’s likely that he hates himself for being such a coward and hiding behind lies. But when he sees his true self as worthless, what else can he do except dig himself into a deeper hole?

Look at 1082. Buggy finally stands up for himself, claiming that wealth and power come from chasing after your dreams -- not grand schemes. Here, he’s talking to himself as much as he’s talking to Crocodile and Mihawk.

“This is wrong… This isn’t how I wanted my life to go…”

It’s a very depressing peek at the man behind the curtain. Buggy only ever wanted to follow his dreams, but he uses schemes to get ahead instead, because they're all he thinks he has. His lies are a crutch to depend on, so he doesn't have to face the truth: he doesn't believe in himself. 

To me, 1082 reads as a "Hail Mary" moment from a character at an emotional low. Buggy still doesn't believe in himself, but he is saying: Fuck it. If Shanks and I finally have an equal chance at becoming Pirate King, I at least have to try... Right? We can confirm his lack of self-confidence, because Buggy even admits he got here by “luck or chance or whatever."

He cannot entertain the possibility that he'd get this far any other way. Of course he doesn't see himself as Shanks' equal. It’s one of many reasons he didn’t want to go with Shanks at Loguetown; he assumed he’d be working “under” Shanks (even though Shanks only said “Come with me!"), because he truly believes he is lesser in terms of potential/greatness. ("You coward!" can also be interpreted as Buggy projecting his own insecurities onto Shanks.) Buggy's decision in 1082 is a desperate leap of faith. "Go for broke," "shoot for the moon," etc.

Post-Timeskip Buggy may appear more dangerous than ever before, but in reality, he’s just a small fish in a big pond. The farther he crawls his way up the ladder of success, the worse he feels, because the life he has built is not how he wanted to live at all. Based on everything we've known about Pre-Timeskip Buggy, we should expect him to be happier than ever. He has influence. Power. His monetary value in the eyes of the World Government has shot up exponentially. But look at the poor guy. He's miserable.

If you've ever seen Better Call Saul, I think this scene from S4E9 is very similar to how I feel about Buggy:

JIMMY: There you go! Kick a man when he’s down! KIM: Jimmy, you are always down.

Buggy is a character who is always down, even when you think he might be up. Until he stops maintaining that false image, he will always be punished by the narrative pendulum he's trapped himself in.

Unfortunately, change is hard, especially with the stakes he’s currently facing. If Buggy actually has to fight Blackbeard, Luffy, or Shanks... he can’t. Not alone. He needs people to believe the facade, because that's what got him here in the first place. He may look invincible, but he is quite possibly the most vulnerable character right now.

Crocodile and Mihawk would sell him to Satan for one corn chip (especially after that stunt he pulled in 1082). We haven't seen him improve his physical abilities (unless Oda pulls some off-screen bullshit). As an emperor, he has more people gunning for his head than ever before. Buggy’s last line of defense is his long-running gag -- if Oda decides to subvert our expectations, he’s a dead man walking.

And who would he have to blame but himself? He built his image on smoke and mirrors. Eventually, he's going to have to pay the price.

If Pre-Timeskip Buggy is a man defined by coincidence, then Post-Timeskip Buggy is defined by consequence.

[twig-tea]

Collection of Be My Favorite Meta after Ep 11 pre Ep 12

[I will try to come back and update this too so please tag me if you see good stuff not mentioned!]

Sorry if me organizing things this way offends anyone, this is mostly for myself to be able to refer back to specific thoughts from everyone's meta so I've grouped posts by points being made which means some posts get linked a bunch of times and a some points in each post may not be represented below because my brain can only hold so much. Please feel free to let me know if you hate it!:

Episode 11 didn't give us the resolution we wanted re: the lie in ep 10: @lurkingshan was right out of the gate with this take.

Maybe Episode 12 will fill the communication gap in ep 10 like we all wanted by giving Pisaeng a chance to say what was left unsaid: @bengiyo put this in his original thoughts and I am still thinking about it! @incandescentflower wrote a really great post on some of the ways Pisaeng leaves things unsaid

Pisaeng time travelling puts Pisaeng and Kawi on equal footing: @bengiyo wrote the definitive piece on this and credit to @grapejuicegay for making a similar point and expanding on it; @he-is-lightning-in-a-bottle made this point too.

There was something off about the montage in ep 11: @bengiyo made this point; @waitmyturtles added some notes about why and @visualtaehyun added a couple notes on this too; @jjsanguine posited an interesting wrinkle about the stasis of time travel and whether that could be what needs to be fixed

[on the other side of this with me is the "the montage was satisfying" crowd: @thegalwhorants wrote this; @incandescentflower I think your post counts too; gonna link myself here too]

The ep 11 scene with Pisaeng and the doctor is extremely important and painful: @heretherebedork wrote a beautiful post about this; @nemesis-21 did too; @marbles290 did too; @visualtaehyun put this in the current Thai political context; @snidgetwrites added the Indian political context

They might go back to decide to fight for equal rights: @rocketturtle4 said this really well

They might go back and decide to use the system to their advantage and get Kawi and Pear to marry: @grapejuicegay laid this one out

They might go abroad to be able to get married like Pisaeng's mom wanted: @marbles2900 wrote about this

Kawi's death may be unavoidable: @williamrikers summarized this nicely here; @shortpplfedup seems to be hinting at thinking the same?, @thegalwhorants posited this too; so did @knighthacker here; also theorized this in my ep 11 reaction post; @minorista wrote great angst about this and @neonsbian added the twist of them riding the time loop to stay together

The point may be that time travel isn't the answer/can't solve everything, and love takes work: @waitmyturtles made this point, and I love it; @stuffnonsenseandotherthings also made this point here (sorry I missed it earlier!)

Pisaeng may try to break up with Kawi in the past: @rebel0777 laid out options for how this would play out; @tinycowboybro noted Pisaeng foreshadowed this; @zzh3 added that maybe Kawi goes to find him on the same beach

Has Pisaeng already been time-travelling?: @waitmyturtles added this wild theory that the montage was time travel Pisaeng's perspective

(Counter to this, @pandasmagorica points out that because of the mechanisms of time travel in this show Pisaeng cannot do a perpetual time loop.) [NEW]

This means the timeline we saw has been erased: @ellaspore wrote this very eloquently; some folks have chimed in to say they're ok with this (@rocketturtle4 and @bengiyo)

BUT WHERE IS THE CAT: @sparklyeyedhimbo made possibly my favourite observation thus far

For anyone confused, here's how the time travel mechanism works in this show: @telomeke wrote a great explainer out, and @benkaaoi makes an important point about why it matters, @jjsanguine laid this out too (I'm going to be selfish and link my reblog thread because I built on this a little in my reply)

[ADDED:]

I tried my hand at figuring out the timeline for the show here.

@stuffnonsenseandotherthings makes the point that by shifting from Kawi to Pisaeng as the protagonist, this show is queering the narrative

@grapejuicegay added some thoughts about the timeline mechanics and how it affects the consciousness of Kawi and Pisaeng.

[updated 4pm EDT Aug 7]

[bluedalahorse]

Hello @simonsapelsin! I’m ready to respond to the comment you left yesterday.

Within the parameters of canon—most likely no, but maybe? It would have to be backed up by a lot of plot and character developments in order for it to work.

This ended up being way too long, so more thoughts on sargust + thoughts on the potential created by AUs and canon divergences + thoughts on the idea of “healthy” relationships behind the cut…

So obviously season 2 ended in a really, really bad place for sargust. August refuses to embrace accountability and doubles down on his harmful behavior. Our last shot of Sara is her calling the police to report him, and in that moment she’s completely alone. They have that painful conversation about August buying Rousseau. That’s… that’s a lot for them to overcome, and season 3 doesn’t have enough episodes to get us there fully, unless the writing team are very, very clever and efficient.

There’s a popular fan interpretation of sargust that says that Sara and August both project identities onto one another and don’t see one another’s real selves. I understand and agree with that interpretation up to a point, but I don’t know if I necessarily agree with it 100%. In my mind they do see real things about one another (August sees Sara’s ambition and desire for independence, Sara sees August’s emotional vulnerability and need for help. And they do connect with one another in ways that others haven’t been able to connect with them. What August and Sara fail to predict about one another is the other’s choices. Sara assumed August would choose to be honest and August assumed Sara would choose to be queen. But I think the care they showed for one another earlier in the season was real, and the way they could hold space for one another was real. That’s really a meta I could write for another time, but a lot of it hinges on this line, which is not a line I am even remotely normal about:

(Note: I’ll probably write this meta eventually. The fact that these characters create a sort of home with one another! Also lol @ August looking like he is stoned out of his mind.)

So what would it look like for sargust to get a Second Chance Romance within the parameters of canon? I mean, first of all, they’d both have to mature independently for a while and work through a lot of the trauma they’re carrying. 

For Sara, I want her to get away from home and have some distance from the place she grew up so she can put her childhood in perspective. Therapy would help. (I want that for Simon, too!) I’d also like to see Sara find some neurodivergent friends/community—I mean, we do tend to find one another and run in packs! And then some sort of career or life path that makes her happy. Maybe with horses, sure, but it’d also be interesting to see Sara keep horses as a beloved hobby while also finding a different career she’s passionate about.

For August, accountability and rehabilitation and understanding of the harm he did is incredibly important for his personal growth. Whether he faces that through the legal system or through some other process is something we have yet to see in the show. Then comes the long work of restitution and atonement, as well as the steps August needs to take to grapple with his various personal traumas. Like, please get this boy a place to process his grief over his father, treatment for his disordered eating, and rehab for his addiction to pills.

Now, Sara and August wouldn’t have to be 100% healed and self-actualized when they run across one another as adults—I don’t know if there’d be a story if they were, and this sort of stuff is lifelong work! But further along the paths above that I described—that could still be a good story.

Beyond growth and maturity, I think we’d have to see some sort of change in how August and Simon relate to one another, happening primarily on Simon’s terms because he was the one wronged, and that would need to be an important part of the story. This feels crucial. Now that Sara’s aware how much she hurt her brother, I don’t imagine she’d enter a relationship with August even if August is a super chill, okay person now. So I actually think a good Second Chance Romance story would have to heavily involve Simon in one way or another. But a fic where August and Simon interact more honestly with one another, and August has to face up to Simon’s personhood? That would definitely hold my attention. (I am kind of hoping they get more extended interaction in season 3, really. They have some sneaky but fascinating parallels as characters and I like watching the way Omar and Malte play off one another.)

Outside of canon… one thing I have considered is the potential to write a version of sargust in AUs that’s more tailored toward happy endings. Which doesn’t quite relate to your question but I do want to talk about it. As of now, AUs/Canon Divergence fics are a perfect place to make sargust actually work out. This fandom has a lot of imagination for AUs and canon divergences. And it’s no surprise—Young Royals is a rich, nuanced text that can be explored from many angles, so it only makes sense that we’d want to create a thousand alternate universe scenarios where canon could have gone differently. In my mind, if people can write “Erik lives” AUs, then “sargust is successful because August learns over time to be less shitty” AUs are also fair game.

The thing with writing an AU or canon divergence is that August’s complex brand of shittiness does not have to be inevitable or eternal. We’ve got creative freedom, baby! We can write any kind of arc for him that we want to and nudge him in all kinds of directions, and set him and Sara up for success! To me, part of the spirit of Young Royals is embracing the idea that everyone has choices, and that they are capable of growth that allows them to make better choices. I mean, sure, it’d be weird to find a version of August on page #1 of a fanfic who’s suddenly like, quoting bell hooks and pushing for an inclusive socialist utopia. I don’t know if I’d suspend my disbelief for that. But I also really struggle to suspend my disbelief for AU versions of August where he’s like… a straightforward flat villain solely out to cause trouble, which is something I have seen out there in the wild and clicked the “back” button over. I crave the nuance. The texture. The literary crunch of it all!

And I don’t think August has to be the center of a fic for that to happen, even. Like I think there’s ways to have him and Sara as a story’s Beta Couple or Gamma Couple and we’re rooting for them and you know what? It’s an AU where some of the characters are fae or 1980s punks or rival scholars of Cold War history so events are happening differently anyway. I’m sure there are ways to write August in character as his shitty self and have him eventually grow and change, without having August also ruin his chances with Sara because he does something that fucks Simon over so completely, you know?

Now, I know there’s fic writers out there who never under any circumstances want to write August’s character and can’t do so from a place of emotional safety. For some folks it is more comfortable to engage with him as a more straightforward villain. And that’s fair. Everyone should write what they feel comfortable writing! In this post, however, I’m thinking more about the people who want to include some kind of nuanced arc for August in their story, but also feel like no one will be interested in it, or like they’ll actually lose readers and engagement if they do write about him, even as a secondary character. Every once in a while I’ll see another fan allude to a really cool fic idea that involves August in some way or takes him in an interesting direction, and then they’ll be like, “oh, but why bother writing it, no one will read it anyway.” And… that makes me incredibly sad! Because I would happily read those fics. I know some other people who would happily read those fics! But I think we’ve normalized the idea that that’s just not how things are “done” in the Young Royals fandom. Which makes it very hard for people to take that risk. I think we’re missing out on some cool stories as a result, that could really be satisfying to read.

One final thought… I notice some fandoms use the word “healthy”  when describing their OTPs/favorite pairings. I hope you’re okay with me unpacking that a bit? This is less a response to your comment in particular and more a response to fandom at large.

Honestly, “healthy” is a word that’s starting to feel pretty loaded for me, and can kind of rub me the wrong way. It seems that generally what people mean by it—when they apply it to a pairing—is that the pairing is good at communicating, respects one another’s boundaries, responds to one another’s needs, processes trauma, etc. And I do appreciate in a story when characters can do these things, to an extent.

But putting it under this umbrella label of “healthy” …well. Okay. “Healthy” is a word that society has added a moral dimension to, and it often gets weaponized against people with disabilities and mental illnesses and other chronic conditions. And health is not an indicator of personal worth. Holding people IRL to a standard of “healthy” kinda feels like you’re saying “it’s okay if you have these diagnoses, as long as you manage them in such a way that it seems like they don’t affect you or the people around you.” (And as someone who’s just recently begun managing a chronic condition, who’s struggling with how to tell my family members because of the way they’re going to moralize about my diet or my stress levels, and also struggling with the shit I’ve internalized over the years… well. I’m thinking about how we use the word “healthy” a lot.)

Bringing this back to the realm of fandoms (because, oof, TMI there blue!) holding a fictional character or pairing to the standard of “healthy” can kind of create some uncomfortable fandom dynamics—at least it can for me, personally. When I see fans take pride in the fact that they ship a “healthy” pairing, to the point where they frequently talk about how “healthy” their pairing is, it’s almost impossible for me not to read such comments as using a moralizing tone that implicitly puts others down for having “unhealthy” ships. Sometimes—generally I haven’t seen this as much in YR fandom—there are even people who will straight up write you off if they perceive your ship as “unhealthy” or “toxic.” And then suddenly all ships are either deemed healthy or unhealthy, and healthy ships are retroactively interpreted as doing everything right, while unhealthy ships can never do anything right, and there’s no hope for them. And that is… a bleak and boring landscape for shipping, if you ask me.

I want to read romances where writers are informed about how trauma can affect relationships and how one can learn to survive it, yes. But I feel iffy about the idea of a perfectly “healthy” romances for sargust or wilmon, seeing as they’re all characters with trauma and mental health struggles, and all of them have days that are Not So Good. They could all mature into adults who’ve learned from their past, but like, Wilhelm might still have panic attacks because anxiety is like that sometimes and it’s not a moral failing. August could go through rehab and be in a much better place and harm others less, and still might struggle with intense emotional disregulation or thoughts related to disordered eating, you know? I’d like reading trauma-informed stories where sargust can mature and heal. But they still might have bad days because that’s what being human is.

In addition, I also like tragic sargust where things just don’t work out between them and everything falls apart, because as I’ve said elsewhere on this blog, I’m a slut for tragedy.

So. Idk. I talk about all these things and all these possibilities in hopes that maybe someone in the fandom will get inspired by them. We’ll see if it does that! Ahaha. It’s worth a try.

ADDENDUM, since I didn’t talk about my own fic ideas here:

Heart and Homeland is an AU fic, and it’s tragic sargust for sure. And I’m proud of it, despite the part where their relationship is tragic! And I tried to work in little glimmers where you see how their relationship could have worked.

Now, my next fic idea, shared with @heliza24, is one set in a canon divergence universe where Sara goes to campus to look for Simon, on the night that Everything Is Fake But Wilhelm’s Love For Simon Is Real. As Sara walks around campus, trying to find her brother, she bumps into August, who is still high from the party and is just sort of… emotionally all over the place? In my head I think Sara and August actually trip over one another and he gets a skinned knee or something, so they have to break into some part of school late at night to get band-aids from a first aid kit, and they end up in a weird, late-night conversation and August actually ends up talking to Sara about his grief for Erik. Thus, he’s never at the window to film the video, and some weird door opens up in his brain about actually having someone he can open up to. He doesn’t change overnight, but his character—and everyone else’s characters—are butterfly effected in a totally different direction. That’s all I’m going to say for now! But gosh, I really hope I get the time and energy to write it.

[boywifesammy]

s5e11 sam, interrupted is THE EPISODE. it’s a fucking cinematic pipe bomb. watching it is like chewing on glass and swallowing propane. it is wonderful, it is amazing, it is EXCRUCIATING and i love it. allow me to explain.

(under the cut because i ended up rambling lol)

like, yes… it is extremely ableist. it is extremely offensive. it is an overdone harmful caricature of psych wards and horrific to watch but that is EXACTLY what makes it so good. i’ve never seen spn as a horror show but man this episode?? the psychological distress of it, the unease, the dereality??? it has me frothing at the mouth.

as someone who has tics and PTSD i have first hand experience being labelled as Crazy so that’s the lens i’m coming at this from. this episode is most definitely not a reliable source for mental health info but the way they portrayed martin’s character kinda got me. him stuttering over certain words, his general paranoia, how they clearly address that he went through a deeply traumatic event but that he’s still useful as a hunter even though he can’t do the things he used to before. i don’t think the writers intended for this episode to be viewed the way i did but man i am shaking it around in my cranium like a snow globe.

just the first few minutes of it is insane. dean acknowledging that sam was high on demon blood and that the apocalypse wasn’t his fault. seeing the absolute absurdity of the show in perspective with real life. dean admitting to his psych doctor that he's an insomniac, alcoholic, and incapable of holding long-terms relationships with his usual blase nonchalance, then immediately clamming up when she hits him with the "let's talk about your father." ??!!! i know dean is The daddy issues character but i love when they call him out like that.

and how can i Not point out the blatant assault and objectification… wendy forcefully making out with both sam AND dean. them both getting probed by the fucking monster of the week not even 10 minutes into the episode. SAM BEING TIED DOWN. i cannot explain to you how much i love seeing him restrained. the moment i saw sam tied down and angry i literally vibrated out of my skin that boy must be helpless and restrained more often it is beautiful.

on a sort of related note: high sam. yes. just yes. the little nose boop. him telling dean I Love You. getting all emotional about how much he cares about his brother. the themes of his autonomy being stripped. him being drugged up against his will when he’s a recovering drug addict????? INSANE.

also one thing that really stood out to me was dean being diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic with narcissistic personality disorder and religious delusions. which, yes, is inaccurate, but seems more like a misinterpretation of his PTSD symptoms. dean isn’t schizophrenic but he IS paranoid and he’s trained himself so thoroughly to weaponize his feelings that even to HIMSELF he seems narcissistic, when he’s really just scared and desperate. he externalizes his self-hatred as this overfed bravado but it’s because if he was honest about how he felt about himself the guy would simply fall apart.

expanding on that note… sam&dean meta on how they react to trauma & grief. dean immediately clams up and becomes anxious and terrified. he shrouds himself in so much false confidence but he genuinely hates himself so fucking much. so much that he just sits with his pain because he thinks he deserves it, while sam wants to externalize. he’s angry and that scares him because of what’s in his blood but the truth is that he has every right to be angry. he wants to be gentle but he has so much repressed rage that it bursts out of him and leaves him terrified in the aftermath. dean on the other hand wants to be angry but he’s so scared and critical of himself that he shuts down.

and the ending. my god the ending. dean telling sam to wrap it up and stuff it down. it’s excruciating to watch because dean’s advice is fucking shit but it’s also heart-breaking because it puts into perspective just how much these boys have on their conscience.

they PHYSICALLY cannot deal with their trauma. it is so awful and overwhelming that they could not function if they remembered it, so they forget about it. they push it down. they hide it away, and it’s so fucking refreshing to have an episode that acknowledges that they do that because THAT IS A TRAUMA RESPONSE. it is quite literally a SURVIVAL tactic. people who are severely traumatized will wipe their memory of traumatic events because they cannot function with it in the peripheral. this is a clear manifestation of sam and dean’s PTSD and how when they’re faced with these problems, their emotions take over and they completely lose themselves, whether that’s due to fear or rage.

the horror of this episode isn’t the wraith. it isn’t the silly little monster sucking out people’s brains. it’s the thing inside you. it is the imagery of these people hanging or with slit wrists being passed off as suicidal because they’re mentally ill. it is the ugly truth of trauma and the ways it twists your memory and self-worth. it is the inherent belief that someone is worthless if they are psychotic or paranoid. it’s the way the episode puts that perspective on sam and dean, shows them what it’s like to hallucinate and drags up their own repressed memories and puts them on full display. it is TRULY horrifying and it is GRIM and NASTY because it is about the human psyche and the horrible ways it can be twisted. it’s a fucking phenomenal episode if you can read the subtext and get past the whole “scary psych ward bad” wrapping.