#Overgod

[rusanya-does-edits]

A godmore/overgod icon of Yuno Gasai and Yukino Amano from Mirai Nikki! :0

This one is probably the simplest one we made out of the three or so the night we made this so we (hopefully) got some sleep by the time you see this!

[abracadav-r]

i really DO appreciate bg3 trying to show that even the realm's good gods, the ones that supposedly are kind and motherly and nuturing can still be so cruel. the shar vs selune story is very interesting in comparison to the mystra angle, since the issues with mystra have been apparent between the lines for a long time (for me since elminster: the making of a mage in 1995).

bg3 shows shar as antagonistic, rightfully, but also leaves the glaring question of "why did selune do nothing to stop this? what do we gain as mortals worshipping and dying for something that always has an excuse to not be there when we need it most?" and not even someone who is the child of a god can escape it in the end.

[schadenfreudich]

Everytime I call myself a god, I expect Gestein to appear just to tell me (yet again) that I'm an overgod and shouldn't refer to myself as a mere god.

[y-rhywbeth2]

...I just found a guide on how a Bhaalspawn can become God of Murder in an old Dragon article! Disclaimer: You might need to kill Bhaal again first for this to work.

"First, [the Bhaalspawn] must bring about the death of a thousand innocents. It can do this through a variety of methods: unleashing a magical plague, using magic to destroy a city with an earthquake, awakening and then controlling an ancient dragon... the possibilities are endless. "Next, it must recover a piece of its father's mortal flesh; either from the body that lies within the Winding Water where Bhaal was killed during the Time of Troubles or else the body left in the Moonshae isles, where Bhaal's avatar was killed by King Tristran of the ffolk. "Finally, he must sit upon the Throne of the Gods and be judged by the overgod Ao. The Throne could be located in any number of inhospitable places: the Starpeaks in the High Forest, in the deepest regions of the Underdark, or somewhere on the Outer Planes." - Dragon #288

-

Other fun stuff in there included the idea that Bhaal was very likely to direct his kids to fuck up Cyric's plans.

There was also a guide to the weird powers they will develop:

-

Warning, having Bhaal as a father may cause you to exhibit two or more of the following side effects:

Addiction to homicide (Refusal to commit homicide will lead to your mind being eaten away until you turn into a ravening, feral animal.)

Your soul going to hell (well, Gehenna) when you're unconscious

Viscous black blood that attracts devils and demons like flies to honey

Poisonous blood! You can coat your weapons with it!

Turning into a divine murder monster

Getting so carried away with bloodlust you try to fight everything. Literally everything in reach, all at once.

Overwhelming homicidal rage when slightly inconvenienced

A steadily weakening sense of free will

Everybody around you immediately dislikes you because you give off Vibes.

A personality so bad it has charisma penalties

Nightmares so traumatic they actually impair your ability to function while awake

Detect evil spells will say you're evil and holy weapons and water will harm you. Even if you're not evil

Being fireproof, for some reason

Super strength

And more!

[mumms-the-word]

Gale and Mystra (and Mystra, and Mystra...)

I did a rabbit hole deep dive into this a few days ago and I have Thoughts. Prepare for long/researched explanations (and by researched I mean I read a lot of wikis and scraps of lore books/novels)

So Mystra dies in the Forgotten Realms something like three times (the “official” number is wibbly because there are many writers messing with Forgotten Realms lore and they don’t always agree). She dies in -339 DR, and then again in 1358 DR, and then kind of again a few months later. Allegedly she stayed dead until 1479-1480, which is roughly 12 years prior to the events of Baldur's Gate 3, but didn't get her body back until 1487, which is 5 years before BG3, which takes place in 1492 (if we're going by the Baldur's Mouth Gazette year).

So...what do we do with that and the current popular theory that Gale was groomed as a child?

If it sounds complicated, don't worry, it's more complicated than you think. Welcome to my TEDTalk. More under the cut.

Mystryl, the first goddess of magic (like, ever) dies hundreds of years prior to the events of BG3 during the Karsus/Netheril debacle. Karsus tried to steal her deity/power and succeeded only to realize his mortal body/mind couldn’t contain or control that much power. Mystryl sacrificed herself (her essence, her power) to keep it out of Karsus’s incapable hands. The Weave went wonky for an indeterminate but brief amount of time, during which the floating cities of Netheril crashed to the ground. This happens in -339 DR, over ~1700 years before BG3. Gale tells us a brief version of this story in his standard dialogue. It's also established lore in campaign books.

Mystryl was reborn as Mystra (still in -339 DR), and this Mystra lasted for AGES. This Mystra is the mother of all magic, the Mystra we basically think of as BG3’s Mystra. This is the Mystra that met and claimed Elminster as one of her Chosen (later they became lovers, it's a whole thing).

But this is complicated. Because in 1358 DR…she dies too.

Long story short, for a brief moment, the Overgod Ao forced all gods to walk Faerûn in their mortal avatar forms and denied them entry into heavens (this was called the Times of Troubles, very complicated, the point is, gods were walking the earth as mortals). Mystra decided to fight Helm, the god guarding the stairway into the heavens, and got promptly smote.

Smitten? Smited? Whatever. Helm DESTROYED her. Death #2.

This time, Ao chose a mortal girl named Midnight to replace Mystra. He imbued Midnight, a wizard girl who worshipped Mystra, with Mystra's powers (Mystra conveniently left an amulet behind with some of her power contained within). Incidentally, the Weave didn't die this time like it did the first time. Convenient!

Midnight-Mystra lasts less than a year before Shar and Cyric (god of trickery) kill her and the Spellplague happens. The Spellplague is basically 10 years of magic going haywire and the Weave kind of ceasing to exist. Again. It's complicated.

Ignoring that some Forgotten Realms writers insist the Spellplague didn't happen, BG3 says it DID. One book in BG3 states:

In the infamous, calamitous year of 1385 DR, a conspiracy between the goddess of darkness, Shar, and the god of trickery, Cyric, sought to end Mystra's control over the Weave and influence over the realms by cravenly assassinating her. But instead of merely breaking the goddess of magic's dominance, her death threw the Weave into utter chaos and collapse. Magic spells faltered, or failed entirely. Countless spellcasters were killed or driven insane... Toril would face nearly a hundred years of upheaval before Mystra could return once again, reinstated as goddess of magic in 1480 DR, thanks to the efforts of the legendary wizard, Elminster Aumar and the events of the Second Sundering...

(Curiously Gale’s Countermeasure Abberation at the Netherbrain fight is called Spellplague so...do with that whatever you want. I mean, I know that’s the Countermeasure for ANY wizard in the party but it feels particularly interesting for Gale. Also we're going to ignore the Second Sundering in this post because that's a whole different rant, just know that the Second Sundering means the state of the world and the pantheon of gods basically got soft reset and then locked into place. Which is why it was important for Mystra to return before that happened, or else she would have gotten locked out of returning at all.)

As far as I can tell, between 1385 and 1479, Mystra was silent. Maybe dead, maybe not. There's some suggestion that she existed in the Weave, because other than the Spellplague period, the Weave still existed. The fact that the Weave exists separately from Mystra is important mostly because Shar wants to turn it into the Shadow Weave, which she can't do if Mystra is alive and maintaining control over the Weave. And if Shar can't control the Weave even while Mystra is silent for 100ish years, then...well. Mystra must not be dead-dead.

More importantly than Shar Politics, her being maybe-dead for almost 100 years means she wasn't whispering in the minds of her Chosen the way gods like her normally do. The wikis mention a comic ("Lord of the Darkways") where Mystra spoke directly to Elminster's mind, but that's the only instance before 1479. Mystra was SILENT before 1479...or at least, very, very, very quiet.

So what happens in 1479? Well, long story short, according to the novel Bury Elminster Deep, Elminster travels to a cave where there is a bear carrying some Mystra's remaining essence/power. Why a bear? I have no idea. Point is, she speaks directly to Elminster and confirms that she is, indeed, Mystra. Specifically, she's pre-Midnight Mystra and also...changed into a newish Mystra.

This is some of what Elminster thinks/says when he's speaking with her and notices she's guarding some artifacts:

“Ye collected these things when ye were Midnight?” El blurted, trembling in a sudden chaos of wanting to know so much, yet not knowing what he dared ask. Her love—or at least fondness—was in his head and all around him, but something was subtly different in it, a distance that had not been there once, or rather one that had grown since Midnight had ascended to replace the Mystra his far younger self had first touched and tasted. Gone was the Mystra whose mind would long ago have merged with his to let them converse wordlessly, thoughts flashing.

Bear!Mystra has been guarding things that Midnight!Mystra collected, things that were important to Mystra!Mystra. Confusing, I know. So who is this current Mystra, speaking to Elminster as a bear? This is the Mystra that would then go on to become lovers with Gale.

Now, I'd argue it's basically all the same Mystra. There was Mystryl and then there was Mystra in her many forms. The Mystra that become lovers with Elminster when she selected him as her Chosen 1300 years ago is the same Mystra that took Gale as a lover too—even if she's died and transformed a couple of times.

It’s worth noting that the novels also sort of mingle all the Mystras into one. In the next novel, Elminster Enraged, when another character called the Simbul (another Chosen of Mystra who is also Mystra’s daughter) is speaking with Mystra, they talk about how Mystra has memories both of previous Mystras and of several Chosen. When the Simbul asks if Mystra can sense her current Chosen, Mystra confirms that she can sense her daughters and Elminster.

“Wasn’t that the Mystra before you?” The Simbul dared to ask. Echoes in the Weave, my daughter, echoes in the Weave…we see and feel so much that happened before us, in the Weave; it becomes part of us, the memories of the Mystra who birthed you becoming part of me, so I become that Mystra…

Anyway. Mystra is Mystra. Basically the same Mystra she's been since the fall of Netheril. Why does that matter? Well.

When Elminster is talking to bear-Mystra, she gives him a command: “I charge you to preserve magic wherever and whenever you can” and also; “Recruit new Chosen and gather them here for me to confer with. I need many, and they must be different from my daughters and from each other…and above all, I must have those I can trust.”

Okay, granted, this specific command probably doesn't apply to Gale. Gale never talks about being gathered as Chosen to help usher in Mystra's return. Remember, she's gathering Chosens so she can restore herself to godhood before Ao clicks the "Save" function on his universe post-Second Sundering. That's what this command is referring to.

Elminster does end up choosing several potential Chosen for Mystra (plus he goes on to steal a whole bunch of magic and gives it to Mystra to restore her back to godhood; this happens at the end of Elminster Enraged). Elminster spends part of Bury Elminster Deep, Elminster Enraged, and The Herald (three back-to-back novels) gathering Chosen or...well, killing corrupt Chosen and stealing their power to give back to Mystra. Mystra begins speaking into the minds of those who worship her in Elminster Enraged (around 1480) and the end of that novel has her appearing as a very grand spirit type of lady, but she's only seen restored to her actual corporeal goddess body at the end of The Herald, which is set in 1487.

So what does this have to do with Gale??

Simple. I have two theories.

Theory 1: Larian just ignores timelines and maybe wanted to create a new grooming narrative for Gale

Listen, Larian has a ton of writers and not every writer can be expected to maintain ALL of the lore Ed Greenwood and other writers wrote for the campaign books and novels. The Forgotten Realms is like 40+ years old. It's been through every iteration of D&D rules. Mystra dies every time the Wizards of the Coast revamps their magic rules, to the point where Ed Greenwood literally had Elminster say, in one of his novels, “I think Mystra’s fall was part of a cycle fated to happen again and again, as the Weave—as all magic of this world—needs renewal.” Elminster fourth-wall calls out a "fated cycle" that is just WOTC remixing magic rules.

Hell, maybe Larian knew that and wanted Gale to be part of the next cycle of Mystra-death-and-rebirth. Raphael certainly suggests something similar if Gale ascends to godhood and plans to usurp Mystra. That's a rant for a different post.

Anyway. Point is, it's a lot of lore, and a lot of it contradicted itself before Larian ever got their hands on it. The writers knew enough to know that Mystra picks Chosens all the time and that she's been known to be lovers with her Chosens. They probably took that and ran with it. Gale was chosen by Mystra and become lovers with her and the timelines don't matter, and maybe there are hints that Mystra groomed him as a kid. Maybe Larian just ignored Ed Greenwood's lore that Mystra didn't speak to any of her followers until like 12 years before the game. That's fine!

But if that theory doesn't seem to vibe, consider theory 2 (which for the purposes of this analysis suggests Gale is a cool 35 for convenient math):

Theory 2: Gale didn't actually hear or meet a corporeal Mystra until he was a consenting adult (NOTE: this does not necessarily mean he wasn't groomed)

Brief timeline, again.

1385, Mystra and Midnight both die and anything resembling a goddess of magic goes silent for nearly 100 years. Early 1400s? Elminster hears Mystra's voice but she's otherwise silent for everyone else 1479, Elminster meets Bear!Mystra, begins finding other Chosen of Mystra and gathering power for Mystra 1480ish, Elminster restores power to Bear!Mystra and she Officially Returns (but like, quietly and we still haven't seen her body, she seems to be just spirit and stardust) 1487, Mystra now has a body because she does this Big Reveal at the end of The Herald by entering a room where five of her Chosen are

If Gale is 35 in 1492, then he was 30 when she "officially" had a body again, and 23 when she begins speaking to her Chosen (or those who worship her more broadly) after a century of silence.

Obviously this theory breaks the current ongoing theory that Mystra revealed herself to Gale when he was 8, or at least a young child. However, does the game really support that theory either? Elminster's letter to an ascended God!Gale only says:

Do you recall the day we first met, m’boy? You could have been no more than eight summers’ old, clutching your mother’s apron…

He doesn't say anything about telling Gale that he is a Chosen at the age of 8 or that Mystra personally has an interest in him. Maybe Elminster was just wandering around and met Gale, or perhaps someone wrote to Elminster to tell him there's an exceptionally talented mage boy that he should meet. Elminster doesn't tell us the circumstances of the meeting, so we'll never know. The one thing we do know is that Elminster has known about Gale since Gale's childhood. There's just nothing in his letter proves that Mystra was actively speaking to Gale when he was 8, or even telling Elminster to choose Gale that young.

Keep in mind, if Gale is 35 in 1492, then he was 8 in 1465, well before Elminster had gotten the charge to maintain the Weave and select new Chosens for Mystra.

Then of course we have Minsc's comment that:

While the girl-folk go on to rule as wychlaran, Weave-touched boys were hidden away. Trained to work their craft in silence and secrecy. It is an old custom, not well-observed. In truth I thought it born of caution, after some catastrophe wrought by wizardly men-folk of old. Now I wonder if it was not done to hide them from Mystra, and the snares she sets for young and prideful boys, hm?

I want to point out that this idea that the Rashemi people hide Weave-touched boys from Mystra's sight is completely new lore. Ed Greenwood explained a bit of how he views vremyonni boys/men being secluded in a series of tweets from 2020. Basically, because a wychlaran (female witch) is also a kind of ruling/religious class in the Rashemi culture, male spellcasters create a power imbalance, especially because they have access to more powerful spells than the female spellcasters. To combat this, male spellcasters are hidden away to avoid political imbalance and end up serving as enchanters/weaponsmiths for the wychlarans. Or they leave and become wizards elsewhere.

The idea that the Rashemi hide the boys away to either a) protect them from Mystra's icky amorous tactics or b) protect their communities from Mystra encouraging grand, destructive ambition in their menfolk, is probably unique to BG3 alone...and that's if we can take what Minsc says at face value.

Can we?

Minsc proves time and again he doesn't think much of wizards. The only thing he likes about Gale is that he can explode. I think he mistrusts male spellcasters in general because of his culture. So his comment could just be Minsc taking a jab at Gale while also not accurately representing his culture (possibly by offering an explanation that he just hasn't thought through all that thoroughly).

The fact that he says "young and prideful boys" is curious, regardless. Does he view Gale as a boy, because Gale is technically younger than Minsc by several decades thanks to Minsc being a statue for a while? Is it derogatory? Is it a remark to say that Gale's ambition is a bit juvenile, as wizard ambitions tend to be? Who knows. Minsc's dialogue isn't always as surface-level as it appears.

So...was Gale groomed?

I guess that depends on your definition of grooming. Adult-to-adult grooming is absolutely a thing. It's a cycle of manipulation, isolation, and gaslighting that leaves one person, the victim, in a twisted, unequal relationship with their abuser. So, yeah, Gale absolutely was groomed by his goddess. Point blank. Period. She rewarded his magical talent with sexual/emotional intimacy. He responded with love, intimacy, adoration, etc., that she was incapable of reciprocating as his equal, because of her power of authority over him (over all wizards) yet she used it to her advantage, and then tossed him aside when it became inconvenient for her. Absolutely she groomed him, and she's an abuser.

But if we're merging Forgotten Realms lore and timelines with BG3 timelines, then our understanding of Gale's perspective of all this shifts a little. Instead of a child chasing after a goddess who is stringing him along, it becomes Gale, the child prodigy, desperately trying to understand magic in a world where the goddess of magic is silent, possibly dead, and the Weave is trying to repair itself after a devastating Spellplague a few decades earlier. It becomes Gale in his teens, not understanding why the others think he's so odd for burying himself in his studies to impress a goddess who might not even care, if she's even alive. It becomes a young adult Gale overwhelmed with awe at the first rumors that Mystra might finally, finally be back, and hearing her voice for the very first time. It becomes Gale, in his late twenties, finally staring into the face of his goddess, someone he's had blind faith in before he even knew for certain she was capable of hearing his prayers. It becomes mid-thirties Gale, who has grown up with a patchwork Weave and a missing goddess, plotting to restore even more power to her by finding an elusive bit of errant Weave and making the biggest mistake of his life. It becomes a story of Gale who probably looked forward to the return of Mystra with so much awe and longing, only to be used and cast aside by her within a dozen years of her return to godhood.

No wonder he felt that godhood was not only well within his grasp, but that he could be a more deserving kind of god.

It's not a perfect theory, and a lot of Gale's dialogue suggests he was a young man, probably early 20s, when he began an intimate relationship with Mystra. He also implies that she spoke to him for some time before they ever became intimate. He describes her first as the Mother of Magic, and then his teacher, and then his muse, and then his lover. So what are we to believe?

Well...that's the frustrating beauty of D&D and Forgotten Realms and Baldur's Gate I guess. The lore is wibbly wobby and malleable. You do what you want with it.

[inaconstantstateofchange]

I come to you on my hands and knees (relevant to the topic right lol) begging for any and all info on Bane, Banites and how it all ties in with Gortash. I love you in advance. <3

Bane and His Cult

Alright, so after twelve and a half hours of research I still don’t fully feel like I have enough, but at a certain point I just need to get this out there, and if there is anything you – or anyone else – would like to see explored in more detail, please feel free to ask! 

Note: I love getting asks like this! There is such a vast quantity of Realmslore that having some sort of specific focus for my deep-dives is a huge help, and knowing the topic is of interest to others is a huge motivator. I also greatly enjoy getting to put my training as a historian to work, as there is so much to interpret and archive alike. 

As ever, these writeups will align with current 5e lore, and draw from 3.5e for additional supporting information. On rarer occasions – and always noted – I will reference 1e and 2e, but with the caveats that there is much more in those editions that is tonally dissonant with the modern conception of the Forgotten Realms, and thus generally less applicable.

We’ll begin with one of the most recent conclusive descriptions of Bane, from the 5e Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide, an overview of the current world-state of, well, the Sword Coast: 

Bane has a simple ethos: the strong have not just the right but the duty to to rule over the weak. A tyrant who is able to seize power must do so, for not only does the tyrant benefit, but so do those under the tyrant’s rule. When a ruler succumbs to decadence, corruption, or decrepitude, a stronger and more suitable ruler will rise.  Bane is vilified in many legends. Throughout history, those who favor him have committed dark deeds in his name, but most people don’t worship Bane out of malice. Bane represents ambition and control, and those who have the former but lack the latter pray to him to give them strength. It is said that Bane favors those who exhibit drive and courage, and that he aids those who seek to become conquerors, carving kingdoms from the wilderness, and bringing order to the lawless.¹

This gives us the briefest summation of what draws people to the Cult of Bane: the desire for power and control, often deriving from a sense that they lack exactly those two things. Bane is the quintessential deity of lawful evil, which – if you’ve read any of my previous posts on the sociology of the Nine Hells – bears a striking similarity to Baator itself, the realm of lawful evil, and the place where Enver Gortash spent at least a portion of his formative years. 

The majority of the following excerpts derive from 3e, which went into far more detail on the specificities of the Faerûnian gods, including their dogmas, holy days, et cetera. One important point to note, however: any discussions of Bane’s scope of power are no longer accurate, as the time period in reference is about one hundred and twenty years before Baldur’s Gate 3 is set, at a time when Bane had just returned to life – and godhood – as nothing less than a greater god. By comparison, during Baldur’s Gate 3, he is a quasi-deity, having abandoned most of his previous godly power in exchange for the ability to directly meddle with Faerûn – forbidden to the gods by the overgod Ao – and gambling that he would be able to regain his lost power and prestige in so doing.²

The dogma of Bane – that is, the core tenets and philosophies that his followers seek to emulate – is as follows: 

Serve no one but Bane. Fear him always and make others fear him even more than you do. The Black Hand always strikes down those that stand against it in the end. Defy Bane and die — or in death find loyalty to him, for he shall compel it. Submit to the word of Bane as uttered by his ranking clergy, since true power can only be gained through service to him. Spread the dark fear of Bane. It is the doom of those who do not follow him to let power slip through their hands. Those who cross the Black Hand meet their dooms earlier and more harshly than those who worship other deities.³

Even were there nothing else to go off of, this would tell us a great deal about the group dynamics of any followers of Bane, whether established church or fragmented cult. Just as in the Hells, hierarchy is everything to proponents of lawful evil. Any cult of Bane would have a strict order to its power structure, and there would be limited – practically nonexistent – tolerance for any questioning or insubordination of that order. To the minds of Banites, such is simply the natural and superior ordering of the world. These interactions are detailed below: 

Within the church, the church hierarchy resolves internal disputes through cold and decisive thoughts, not rash and uncontrolled behavior. Bane’s clerics and worshipers try to assume positions of power in every realm so that they can turn the world over to Bane. They work subtly and patiently to divide the forces of their enemies and elevate themselves and the church’s allies over all others, although they do not fear swift and decisive violent action to help achieve their aims.³ 

The manner of tyranny that Bane holds to is similarly calculated – he is not interested in mere shows of force, but rather in insidious plots that twist and make use of existing rule of law to legitimize tyranny wherever possible. A social tide operated ostensibly within the laws of the land is far more troublesome to fight back against than a simple army.⁴ 

As far as specific ritual and day-to-day workings of the cult, some can be evidenced here, in broad strokes: 

Bane’s clerics pray for spells at midnight. They have no calendar-based holidays, and rituals are held whenever a senior cleric declares it time. Rites of Bane consist of drumming, chanting, doomful singing, and the sacrifice of intelligent beings, who are humiliated, tortured, and made to show fear before their death by flogging, slashing, or crushing.³ 

In this sense, rituals seem most likely to be used as a display of power and a test of subservience, leaving lower-ranked members of the cult at the whims of their superiors, expected – as noted previously – to attend to their commands with the same alacrity they would use were Bane himself to speak. The rites themselves are designed to reinforce and glorify the primary aspects of their god’s domain: the tyranny of forcing submission and pain from the weak. 

Faiths & Pantheons, published a year after the Campaign Setting supplement, provides a similar description of the rituals of the cult of Bane, along with some intriguing and flavorful additions (noted in bold for ease of comparison): 

Their religion recognizes no official holidays, though servants give thanks to the Black Hand before and after major battles or before a particularly important act of subterfuge. Senior clerics often declare holy days at a moment's notice, usually claiming to act upon divine inspiration granted to them in dreams. Rites include drumming, chanting, and the sacrifice of intelligent beings, usually upon an altar of black basalt or obsidian.”⁴

As, in the “present day” of Baldur’s Gate 3, Bane has lost much of his foothold on power and his Faith’s old domains, the specifics of architecture of Banite keeps are no longer quite so relevant. However, in times past, when his Faith worked far more openly and held much greater power, the philosophy of Bane was expressed through the architecture of his churches and strongholds: 

Tall, sharp-cornered stone structures featuring towers adorned with large spikes and thin windows, most Banite churches suggest the architecture of fortified keeps or small castles. Thin interior passageways lead from an austere foyer to barrackslike common chambers for the lay clergy, each sparsely decorated with tapestries depicting the symbols of Bane or inscribed with embroidered passages from important religious texts.⁴

The social capital of a Faith – a broad term used to encapsulate all followers of a single deity – is often heavily intertwined with the power of its god, a mutualistic relationship that runs in both directions. More social weight behind the Faith means its god’s name and will is conveyed to more people, some or many of whom might apportion some worship or act in alignment with that god and empower them by so doing. More power for the god means more divine actions that can bolster their own image and the reach of their clergy. At its height in the late 1300s, the Faith of Bane was one of the most prominent and powerful, with comparable might to that of a small kingdom.⁵

Something that is important to bear in mind in a setting such as the Forgotten Realms, not only polytheistic, but an environment where the gods being worshiped are demonstrably existent, is that the followers of evil gods are not likely to be obtrusive with the less savory aspects of their dogma. Not only would that, in the majority of cases, do more harm than good to their deity’s long term goals, in the words of Elminster: 

A dead foe is just that: dead, and soon to be replaced by another. An influenced foe, on the other hand, is well on the way to becoming an ally, increasing the sway of the deity.⁶

All of this aligns with what we see of the Cult of Bane and its operation in Baldur’s Gate 3. While it does not have the same sway and might behind it as it did a hundred years before, through manipulation of law and carefully applied pressure – of whatever form most likely to yield the desired results, be it threats, bribery, blackmail, or use of hostages – Gortash has enacted a steel web of delicate, ensnaring tyranny across the entire city. 

We can even find present-day expressions of the interactions of the cult members, and find that they hold true to what their forebears experienced, further proof of the consistency of lawful evil. A personal note found on the body of a dead Banite guard at the Steel Watch Foundry calls the Black Gauntlet in charge of the Foundry Lab, Hahns Rives, a “disgrace to the Tyrant Lord”, and notes the writer’s intent to “compile a list of Rives’ shortcomings for the Overseers.”⁷ These shortcomings include: 

1. Rives failed to reprimand Polandulus for making jokes about Lord Gortash! 2. Rives missed the morning mass to Bane - twice! 3. Rives didn't punish Gondian Ofran when she missed her gyronetics quota merely because she'd lost a finger that day in the punch press.⁷

We can see evidenced here the constant scheming for position and recognition consistent with this manner of lawful evil hierarchy. Both devils and Banites orient their day-to-day lives around how to prove themselves to their superiors, while also undercutting them at any chance they have to prove their own superiority, with hopes of being raised above them. 

This is only reinforced further by another text found within the Steel Watch Foundry, Bane’s Book of Admonitions. Its text is not written out for us, but described as such:

A book of adages and precepts for Banites, providing the basic tenets of worship of the Lord of Tyranny, with suggested prayers for common situations. The heart of the book is Bane's Twelve Admonitions, a dozen rules for proper Banite conduct, with punishments specified for failure to comply. The book opens easily to a page with two of Bane's most popular admonitions, number six, the Reprimand for Leniency, and number seven, the Rebuke for False Compassion.⁸

The most likely scenario is that this book was used by the “Overseers” referenced by the anonymous Banite writing of Rives above. The exact position of the Overseers is not made clear, but from context and knowledge of Banite hierarchy, we can infer that they inhabit a place in the hierarchy above both the guard and Rives himself, and that their role is to ensure all those below them uphold the tenets of Bane at all times, never losing sight of his will. 

In that context, it makes sense that they would both have a book of specific punishments for specific infractions – rule of law, after all – and that, given the attempted report on Rives, punishments (“admonitions”) for the crimes of leniency and false compassion – and all compassion is false when your conception of the world does not allow for its existence – would be those most referenced. It would be incredibly important to the unity of the cult, as well as to Gortash’s plans, to harshly punish any observed leniency or break from Bane’s law among members of the cult.

Not only would failure to control the situation at the Foundry potentially spell failure for the schemes of Bane’s Chosen, any unpunished step out of line by members of the cult would be seen as tempting others to do the same, a trickle of dissent quickly becoming a flood. Better to ensure that all adherents live in merited fear of the consequence of failure. 

After all, it is said of Bane himself: “He has no tolerance of failure and seldom thinks twice about submitting even a loyal servant to rigorous tortures to ensure complete obedience to his demanding, regimented doctrine.”⁴

And, in an appropriately lawful hierarchy, the same rule must apply from the bottom, to the top.

¹ Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide. 2014. p. 26.

² Descent into Avernus. 2019. p. 231

³ Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3E. 2001. pp. 237-8

⁴ Faiths & Pantheons. 2002. pp. 15-16.

⁵ Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3E. 2001. p. 93

⁶ Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster’s Guide to the Forgotten Realms. 2012. pp. 135-6.

⁷ Rives’ Failures as a Banite. Baldur’s Gate 3. In-Game Text.

⁸ Bane’s Book of Admonitions. Baldur’s Gate 3. In-Game Text.

[justabrowncoatedwench]

So I'm not done lol I wanna rant about how all the god shit in BG3 is connected! Spoilers under the cut...

To preface: all dates are listed in DR, or Dale Reckoning, which is the most commonly used dating of years in Forgotten Realms lore, established with 1 at the signing of the Dale's Compact, creating peace between the elves of Cormanthyr and the human+ civilizations of the Dalelands (notable to current discussions, as Elminster Aumar is equally well known as the Sage of Shadowdale, one such dale in the Dalelands).

So Shadowheart's arc highlights the tug of war between Shar and Selune, but Shar and Selune are ALSO the progenitors of a lot of the other deities INCLUDING the OG Mystryl, born when Selune tore a part of her essence & threw it at Shar during their initial war post-sun creation, wounding them both & casting Shar into the void for a while. Mystryl was that piece of magic torn from Selune and having grabbed up a piece of Shar's as well when she hit, a blending of light and dark.

Mystryl then much later gave her life to save the world during Karsus's Folly in -339 DR. That's how Karsus fucked up magic so bad and so permanently. He almost DESTROYED the Weave, because Mystryl - and in future, Mystra - IS the Weave! And she died - thus also killing him, as she was inside him at the time - to preserve the Weave when he tried to steal some measure of her power!

*And Gale knew this*, knew much of it anyway. How could he not, with his own research that led him to the Orb? And his relationship with Mystra? And friendship with Elminster?

Anywho, Mystryl took time to reincarnate herself using a young peasant girl as her vessel, she then chose to go by the name Mystra instead of Mystryl. Once in this vessel she regained control of the Weave, bringing magic back to Toril (the planet Faerun, a continent, is on), which had been chaotic & largely depowered. After Karsus, she became much more strict/ Lawful in her decrees around magic, banning mortals from using any magic above 9th level spells (Karsus's Folly involved at least one 10th or 11th 12th level spell iirc).

Later, during the period known as the Time of Troubles, which began when Bane & Myrkul (two of the Dead Three) tried to steal the Tablets of Fate from Ao (the Overgod that most mortals don't even know exists). Ao then locked the deities into the Material Plane, forcing them to walk among their followers on Toril. Mystra at one point defied Ao's order, attempting to return to the heavens, and was killed by Helm, who had been tasked by Ao with protecting the gates and ensuring none of the gods disobeyed him. (Good job, Mystra.)

Also during the Time of Troubles the Dead Three got their name in truth, as Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal were killed (as were several other gods, some of whom Ao chose to resurrect as they perished while fulfilling the obligations of their portfolios, like Torm). The Time of Troubles is also when Bhaal was seeding his Bhaalspawn - including Sarevok Anchev - in the world (the results of which gave us Baldur's Gates 1 and 2).

Anyway, as previously established, Mystra IS the Weave, so killing her fucked magic up again, unleashing the Spellplague (hello 4e D&D and your reduced pantheon & reduced magic). Ao selected several mortals to either ascend into vacated portfolios or rewarded mortals for killing gods who needed killing; Cyric was a mortal who killed Bane, while helping to retrieve the Tablets of Fate for Ao, for example of one such occurrence, who fwiw was the adventuring companion of two other mortals chosen for godhood, Kelemvor and Midnight. Kelemvor took on a portfolio of the dead, and Midnight was who Ao picked to take on Mystra's role and she chose to take on Mystra's name as well. This happened in 1358 DR, and when the Tablets were returned to Ao, he ground them to powder so they'd never be at risk again. This however fucked up the natural laws of Realmspace, which began to unravel, beginning the Era of Upheaval. The Era of Upheavel lasted from its beginning in 1358 DR (BG1 takes place in 1368 & BG2 takes place shortly after) through the Second Sundering (though most mortals only know of it as the Sundering, since the First Sundering happened even before Karsus's Folly by millenia, in -17,600 DR, in the time of elves) which took from about 1482 through 1487 DR. (The Second Sundering and its associated tie in novel series - very good! - brings us from 4e into 5e D&D, in ttrpg terms.) Baldur's Gate 3 takes place in 1492 DR, starting in the equivalent earth month to August, late August specifically.

Considering that Midnight took on the mantle of Mystra in 1358, I'm pretty sure Gale has only dealt with *her*, while Elminster has served Mystra - including being her lover and raising 3 of her 7 daughters - for 1300 years by BG3, which would include both previous incarnations of Mystryl/Mystra.

So in summary, the gods are all Like That, even the ones who used to be mortals (and I'm pretty sure Gale doesn't know his Mystra used to be a mortal, or that any other gods were either, based on dialogue after you get the Tome of Karsus in Act 3).

All the delicious BG3 god machinations are connected and have been for centuries if not eons. The Dead Three like to cause problems on purpose, Shar and Selune are sisters & also kind of contentiously divorced parents who can't play nice & use the kids to fight. Even the Lathander stuff at the gith creche is kind of connected, since the kick off of the big war between Shar & Selune was the creation of the sun to give their first child, Chauntea, the og earth/nature deity, warmth. Lathander (& Amaunator, rip) is the deity of the dawn/sun, among other things, and Silvanus (hello deity of the Druids in Act 1 & Halsin) is the wild nature counterpart to Chauntea's now largely agricultural portfolio. Chauntea has been known to have romantic connections with Lathander, as well. Zariel too - hello Wyll & Karlach's storylines - is connected, because before her fall into Avernus where she became an Archdevil in service to Asmodeus, she USED to be a solar (most powerful type of angel/celestial) in the service of Lathander.

If you've gotten this far, thank you for listening to my lore dump lol. I hope it enriches your experience of BG3 & the Forgotten Realms!

Post-Script: if you're left wondering how the unraveling of the laws of Realmspace got fixed, the Second Sundering began when Ao decided to recreate the Tablets of Fate to fix what he'd broken vis a vis the chaos of the Realmspace.

Additional fun fact: of the 3 of Mystra's 7 total daughters that Elminster raised, Storm Silverhand - renowned High Harper of the Dalelands - was one, and often also traveled with him as an adventuring companion as an adult through the centuries. Another is Laeral Silverhand, current Open Lord of Waterdeep, that big ol' city Gale is from that's right up the coast from Baldur's Gate.

[crossdressingdeath]

Lae'zel: I am a Warrior of the Comet. I will not rest until I burn Vlaakith's bones to ash and smash her phylactery to pieces. My people will be free! Chk - but you've heard that refrain before. Zealous, bossy, insistent. All part and parcel of my undeniable charm. Kyvir: When will I see you again? Lae'zel: Soon - when the Comet has risen, when the lich queen has crumbled to dust. I missed this place. More to the point, I missed you. I'll be back one day. The Overgod himself couldn't keep me away.

She's going to come back! Lae'zel is so down on Faerûn at the start and now she's determined to come back as soon as her people are free because she missed it and she missed you, we love to see it. Also please may I help Lae'zel free her people? Just a little bit? Let me at least offer to help.

[theshitpostcalligrapher]

req’d by @shyce-overgod

this is everyone’s reminder that the askbox is opening LITERALLY TOMORROW. OCTOBER 15, 2PM EST

text: Ah shit, I missed the askbox

[coreene]

Tyr

Grimjaws, the Maimed God, the Evenhanded

Tyr Grimjaws, Tyr the Evenhanded, Wounded Tyr, the Maimed God, the Blind, Blind Tyr, the Lord of Justice all of these names speak to the nature of the Faerunian god of justice. Tyr appears as a noble warrior missing his right hand, which he lost to Kezef the Chaos Hound in an act of bravery and sacrifice, and with his eyes wrapped in cloth to signify his blindness, caused by a wound dealt to him by Ao when he questioned the justice of the Overgod's actions.

Tyr's followers devote themselves to the cause of justice, to the righting of wrongs and the deliverance of vengeance. This devotion isn't necessarily concerned with equality or fairness, but rather the discovery of truth and the punishment of the guilty. Those who favour Tyr tend to be stiff-necked about matters of theology and laws, seeing things in terms of black and white. Tyr's credo of lawfulness and honesty is a demanding one, and his priests remind the faithful not to hold in contempt others who can't live by it- it wouldn't be an honourable calling if everyone could muster the strength of will to follow it.

Many orders of knighthood are devoted to Tyr, including the Knights of Holy Judgment and the Knights of the Merciful Sword. Such knights-as well as judges and priests, clerics, and paladins who worship Tyr- sometimes wear thin strips of diaphanous cloth over their eyes to remind others of the blindness of justice.

source: Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide pg. 40

[schadenfreudich]

I was going to make a joke about how german names that end with -hard/hart don't sound the same as they used to, but Bernhard looked at me like he was planning to murder me, so maybe not.

[y-rhywbeth2]

Hi! Some friends and I were discussing Bhaal and we were wondering about the souls of people killed in his name. Does he get their souls for himself even if they worshipped other gods? Is the act of murder alone enough to give him more power or does he need the souls of the sacrificed too?

Sacrificing a victim to Bhaal, as an act of worship and an act of murder, will feed him, yeah. As for the souls... I don't think they should go to him, no.

According to what I know of FR lore, I don't think Bhaal should be getting any souls except for those of his own faithful. The dead pass onto the Fugue plane and are judged by Kelemvor, and those not False or Faithless will be passed onto their deity and there's not a lot other deities can do, usually.

Jergal, in his early days, took exception to other gods getting souls, instead of him getting them all. As the ruler of the dead, if it had been within his abilities to horde all souls for himself and keep them from leaving the City of Judgement, he would have done so; instead he had to create Kezef, the Chaos Hound - an abomination that hunts and devours/destroys souls as they pass from the Fugue Plane and move towards their god's plane so that no god may claim them.

There has been at least one occasion where a god stole the souls of another god's followers - Bane consumed a large chunk of Bhaal's assassins. That was somewhat special circumstances though, since he had Myrkul's (begrudging) aid and Myrkul is an extraordinarily powerful necromancer and was also reigning god of the dead at the time, so he had access to those rules to break them. Also Bane and Myrkul were already in terminally deep shit with Ao, so breaking the rules even further and risking the wrath of the Overgod wasn't such a concern at the time. (He's also no longer god of the dead (Kelemvor is), so I doubt he has the authority/power to do that kind of stuff again)

There's a lot of lore and I don't know everything, so there might be information that says otherwise (and conflicting information that agrees with me) but everything I know says he shouldn't and if I were DMing I would say he can't claim them.

That said, Larian has their own personal canon and it does appear that Bhaal is eating/hiding other souls in that, according to Jergal's comment after you kill your lover and ask for their resurrection. Of course his excuse if you ask for Quil/Alfira is that he could but he's not inflicting you on them again, so that might've been a one-off soul eating to punish Durge specifically.

[justmaghookit]

Reading up on some forgotten realms lore and it is truly hilarious how the second incarnation of Mystra died, like the Overgod went and said "ok chuckle fucks who stole my big rules tablet? none of you? ok you can all go be mortal until you bring it back"

And she went "this sucks i didn't steal your big rules tablet and i'm super strong let me back into the realm of the gods" and the god of bouncers Helm, who was allowed to keep his god powers because being the god of guarding things and duty he was basically the only one who could not of done it said "no can do ma'am, you heard the boss, please vacate the premise you're not above all the others"

and Mystra went "fuck you let me back in!!" -FIREBOLT FIREBOLT FIREBOLT-

Then Helm, god of Bouncers did weep a single tear for what he had to do as he tipped his sunglasses down [raised the visor of this helmet] and fucking eradicated her with his gaze

[vigilant-cleric]

( @tarathemagnificent ) She sat pretty as she pleased looking up at him. "Yoo-hoo. Down here. I'm quite bored you see. Tell me of how Helm vanquished the evil Mystra."

The priest busied himself with cleaning out old incense for newer one while the temple was empty at its usual hours, lack of activity sometimes making him long for his soldiering days - at least until he remembered that being a soldier, too, involved long days of cleaning out the barracks.

Empty? Not entirely. He simply had not expected that his visitor would be of a much smaller size than usual, and very feline in appearance.

His magical fiber was rather underdeveloped - any spellcasting ability was granted by the will of Helm, not the Weave. But he quite appreciated the tressym, and any enemy of Mystra was a friend of his, quite frankly.

Discarding the last of the incense, he knelt down to talk to Tara, preventing her from having to strain her neck to look at him.

"Good afternoon, Tara. I am not sure the Watcher would put it the way you did," he said with an amused smile. "But Mystra's demise is an example of divine hubris. During the Time of Troubles, after the theft of the Tablets of Fate from the Overgod, only Helm was permitted to retain His deity status because He was entrusted with the mission to guard the Celestial Staircase. Anyone who meant to cross it and regain their godly powers was to bring back the Tablets of Fate. Mystra did not have them but wished to bypass Helm still, and unleashed all her magic upon Him at His refusal. He did not waver and as, Lord Ao commanded, He felled her for the affront - and her own attempt at slaying Him. It is said that He poured a single tear of grief after being forced to kill her."

[beholdingslut]

just got jump scared by someone pronouncing the forgotten realms god "ao." what do you mean you say each part distinctly like the letters and not like the māori word that means world or daylight. doesn't that seem more fitting for an overgod of a pantheon.