#also i am not here to debate the morality of this shipping issue

[jeork]

How to (not) Fight for Love: The Morning after the Wedding

I finally got around to continue reading and reached the part I looked forward to the most, the great debate of chapter 14. As I mentioned in my post ‘Meeting Ralph’,  for this read I was particularly interested in looking at Ralph from an “outsiders POV” and exploring why he - although a beloved character in the fandom - seems to often not be very well perceived by casual one-time readers.

This is not about whether the things he says are logically right or wrong, but more so about his communication style, and how IMO he tends to blunder quite a bit. Also, @renaultphile already wrote a really interesting breakdown of the power struggle in chapter 14 here.

First, let’s start with Laurie, through who’s POV Ralph is filtered. Laurie perceives Ralph as calculated, which comes through especially on the morning after the wedding night. In the same vein he appears to misinterpret Ralph’s display of desperation as a display of loose morals. This assessment builds up within him throughout the novel, and fully breaks through to the surface on the day after the wedding night:

„Seven years was a long time, after all, and something had gone.“

He casts Ralph as the lover in Lysia‘s speech. It leaves little leeway and benefit of the doubt for Ralph. Now, while I think Laurie misinterprets the intent behind Ralph‘s calculative behavior, I wouldn't say he is wrong about perceiving it. 

Before going through chapter 14, I want to first go back to the morning after the wedding, to look at some of Ralph’s speech mannerisms outside of an argumentative context.

One thing he likes to do is what I would consider to be a sudden switch up. In the morning he seems to very organically fall into one after Laurie mentions how Ralph reminds him of a character from Treasure Island. Previously idle, Ralph suddenly goes into alert ship's captain mode, then immediately switches back to lanquidity after he’s done relaying his shark information. Obviously there was no calculative intent behind this, still it has a slightly off-putting effect on Laurie (and potentially readers). He’s immediately reminded of their power imbalance. 

It’s harder to feel at ease with someone who can easily emotionally detour from the shared mood, and then return to it at the drop of a hat. It can come across as if they can’t chill out, or as if they're not emotionally present with you. At worst it can come across as them being fake. 

Another habit I think Ralph has is to invert stereotypical expressions that would typically be phrased in regards to oneself (I feel, I am, etc.). He asks „Are you thinking about me?“, as opposed to the more stereotypical expression of “I’m thinking about you.” In this case this inversion is not an issue, I actually think it’s very boyish, indulgent and endearing haha. But this speech mannerism could easily be perceived as a problem when used within a different context.

Later, after Laurie hesitates about moving in with him, Ralph says “You didn‘t think I was going to be difficult, did you?” I feel like a more common phrase to de-escalate a potential argument would be “Sorry if I’m being difficult right now.” (Not saying this is what Ralph should’ve said.)

Sometime afterwards he also says „It half kills me to see you making yourself unhappy like this.“ as opposed to „This situation is making me unhappy (as well).“ Here of course Ralph's own unhappiness is heavily implied (although he phrases it like a hyperbole, which makes it sound more like he's being inconvenienced). But the real focus still lies on Laurie's emotional state.

The way I see it, Mary uses these inverted expressions to reveal a lot about Ralph’s inner emotional states, without him actually having to voice them. On one hand he's too prideful to do so, on the other I guess he's trying to not make it about himself. Still, when taken at face value these statements can come across as patronizing. Everything’s always framed as being for Laurie’s own good, as if he’s being done a favor. It establishes the dynamic of Laurie needing Ralph, without making it clear how much Ralph needs Laurie.

“I know what you’re like without me there.” 

This implied dynamic unfortunately goes right to the core of what Laurie’s afraid of. He feels naive and powerless, which ends up turning into the instinct to push back against Ralph.

(Follow-up on how all this flows into their chapter 14 confrontation will come ASAP.)

[dragonsfromthemoon]

ON ASOIAF, AGE GAP AND RHAELYA

This is a topic discussed over and over on fandom spaces. Often it is brought up by antis as a “gotcha!” against the fans of certain fictional couples — and on this meta, my focus is mostly on Rhaegar and Lyanna, though some arguments can be used for other ships as well.

That said, we have two ways of looking into this subject in the context of A Song of Ice and Fire.

Parting from a doylist analysis, we could rightfully criticize George R. R. Martin for his approach to age and relationships, especially regarding his female characters. In Rhaegar and Lyanna's case, we could object him putting an underage girl in a relationship with a married man about eight years her senior. If I were the one writing this story, I would have aged Lyanna up; there is no narrative/worldbuilding/plot reason for not doing that. Alas, I am not George R. R. Martin, the story does not belong to me.

The gist here, however, is reprobating the author's conscious choices, nor the characters themselves or their relationship. Rhaegar and Lyanna cannot make decisions or be held accountable in the real world, as they are only fragments of George R. R. Martin's imagination and words on a blank paper. The same is valid for any other relationship featured on Planetos.

Nevertheless, a doylist analysis is bound to face some questions and run into some issues as well. The first being, who is the one raising the objections? The answer is crucial, because the objector parts from their own vision of the world — which is dictated by one's upbringing, moral and culture. Needless to say, all of these things vary from person to person. Different fans will approach the matter of age gaps differently, based on their own opinions and experiences. The second one is, who gets to judge what is right or wrong? And this is followed by the question: what is the the acceptable age gap — 10 years? 5 years? 2 years? 1 year? Months? We would debate over it endlessly, because there is really no right answer, and everyone would apply their own biases to the issue. Thirdly, why did the objector decide to engage with a material that features such age gaps in the first place? We have the power over what we read and watch, over the fandoms we join; as well as the power of not engaging with triggering content for us anymore. Sanitizing fiction is not the way to go, because it brings more harm than good in the form of persecution and harassment of content creators and censorship (again, who gets to decide what must be censored and why?)

There are two more intertwined factors to take into account when discussing a doylist perspective: George R. R. Martin's historical inspirations and worldbuilding. Though so many times exaggerated and factually wrong, the fact remains that he draws inspiration from the European Middle Age (with focus on England) to build Planetos. And that reflects directly on the issues of age in his work. Childhood, adulthood, marriageable age, age of context are notions that differ drastically from our contemporary ones. We are talking about distincts periods of history, with distinct approaches to social and cultural norms, after all. Here the author himself discusses the issue of ages, if one would be interested to read on the topic.

Which brings me to the watsonian analysis part of this essay. Above all, the in-universe context matters here. And if we hope to understand the characters, their actions and views on relationships in a deep level, we cannot dissociate them from their historical and social in-universe background.

By the time Lyanna met Rhaegar, she was 14 and already engaged to Robert Baratheon. Her fiance Robert, by the way, was also older than her. By all accounts he desired her and claimed to love her, constructed an image of her in his mind. It is safe to speculate she would have been expected to marry Robert not long after Brandon Stark's marriage to Catelyn, if her elopement with Rhaegar and the Rebellion had not happened. My point here is, this was hardly a frowned upon marriage arrangement in A Song of Ice and Fire. Except for Lyanna, that is, as she did not desire Robert nor this marriage. Even so, her issue was not with his age (her distaste for Robert is a whole other discussion).

Well, when Lyanna starts her affair with Rhaegar de facto, she is about 16 (not 14, as antis like to claim; let's get our facts straight). By Westerosi standards, a woman grown, apt to marry and bear children. Rhaegar was about 24. Thus they have a 8 years age gap. This is hardly a remarkable age difference in Westeros, as so many couples have it even bigger. Almost all of romantic entanglements in this story have an element of age imbalance. I will not name these examples; I trust the readers to come up with their own.

My point here is, through watsonian lens, the age gap between Lyanna and Rhaegar is scarcely a problem or something to be particularly condemned. And quite frankly, there are other aspects of their characters and their dynamic that are more relevant to discuss, if we as readers take upon us to analyse them.

[horuslupercal]

Discovered your block, saw I'm literally everything you hated (Don't care about primarchxprimarch shipping, in the weird spot of being considered transphobic by tumblr standards for thinking gender isnt real but being called "tranny apologist" by 4chan stereotypes for telling them to just leave people alone, vaugely pro Isreal purely due to hamas but knowing it's very complicated issue and I'm not NEARLY knowledgable enough to form a solid opinion other than "leave civilians alone, hamas can burn in hell") but the posts of you playing games with your cat just look so cosy and "this could be me" and I just had this weird philosophical feeling of "This seems like the sort of personality I would be friends with if I met them irl but online they explicitly dislike me for xyz opnions"

Do you ever get the feeling/see cases of people putting all sorts of conditions up online for who they interact with but when you see the same person in real life they comparatively just... don't give a shit. Like you see "stereotypical tumblr user" hang out with people who makes occasional edgy jokes but don't mean them. I think on the internet, espcially on websites with a generlly cohesive culture (tumblr/4chan/etc) it's easy to isolate yourself by making "morally good people" the ones who have the same answer to everything that you do rather than differing solution to the same problem, unlike real life where you undoubtedly have friends/family you WILDLY disagree with on something but you still consider them a good person.

Sorry for the ramble, I'm adhd and bad at expressing myself with brevity. I just got weirdly philosophical over this. And I just hope people who agree on the fundamentals of "do what you want as long as it dosen't hurt anyone" but not the specifics on politics could bond more over the more... human? things. Like at the end of the day, were all someone who want to cuddle up and play games with our cat.

yeah man see I have this thing called principles. regardless of personality matches and shared hobbies, I will also call this stuff out it irl and it will impact my opinion of you. I have done this to family, I have done this to acquaintances, and I will continue doing it. and the reason people get so strict about it on the internet especially is that there is literally zero incentive to tolerate stupid shit. I'm here to relax and there are a million people I can do that with who aren't going to make me spend my time and energy debating with them

I will admit the shipping ban is an issue of annoyance more than anything else, because Warhammer fans don't seem to have ever encountered the concept of "do what you want in your own time, don't make me see it in mine". I have repeatedly had people knowingly overstep my boundaries about it when I state it more nicely so, if a policy of aggression means they stop trying to show it to me, I'm for it. but issues like supporting an ethnostate currently committing genocide? I am very, very serious. no amount of "well maybe they'll get Hamas" excuses the actively ongoing genocide. actions are everything.

[liamfaoisidhe]

Opening up a moral question because I recently saw another post (and commented mostly out of curiousity), but couldn't say everything I wanted. The post was talking about the implicit white bias of shipping Kit x Elora, but more specifically of shipping Kit x Elora *over* Kit x Jade.

Here's where my opinion comes in, but I shall preface this by giving a few things about me as a person: 1. I am white. 2. I am sapphic and attracted to girls who look like Jade, if I'm being completely honest. 3. I like the enemies to lovers trope as much as the best friends to lovers trope, if not more. 4. I am deeply in love with my best friend, so I suppose... you can take that into consideration, too, if it matters.

My issue is I completely understand the argument that it's good to show female friendship dynamics in a show, and that Graydon x Elora is a great ship, and that (I very obviously agree, I am feral for this ship) Jade x Kit is a lovely, beautiful, 100% perfect lesbian ship...

I am poly. Sapphic poly romances are not common. Is it wring that I ship more than just the main couple? For me, shipping almost of them fulfills the part of me that loves and needs a dynamic of three or more. In my opinion, this is not shipping a white on white ship more than an interracial ship, but simply seeing and loving the small little spark of a possibility of an interracial lesbian throuple? Is that like, wrong? I'm not always sure what is right in a moral debate like this, or if there is a right. I'd love the Willow fandom's opinion, both negative, positive, and shades of grey.

And yes, I do also ship Graydon and Elora, and platonically ship Kit and Graydon, as they would be great royalty friends, imo. On that note, I do also ship Kit and Elora in both a platonic and romantic way, as well as have a wild soft spot for Kit/Jade/Elora (The I would lay my life down for you vibes from Kit and Jade to Elora as well as between Jade and Kit, and the I see you as valuable and see and want to understand your pain between them all is weakening my heart). Kit x Jade is my favorite ship, possibly ever.

[pomodoko]

I’m sorry but with the world being in its current condition, ai don’t think fictional ships are the fucking issue here. The world is turning to shit, people are being slaughtered, and our rights are being stripped from us. Lgbt and bipoc people are still suffering daily. Innocent people are being killed for not wearing their fucking hijab’s correctly. People are rioting, and the world is burning. Fictional fucking ships are not the worlds issue right now. Or at all, honestly.

I would agree with the sentiment had it not been so aggressive. In fact, good news, actually! After I received that ask, I remembered that a while back another anon approached me with a similar topic as well (but my brain has not been working too well in the memory department as of late, so I didn't remember it happening).

I also try to assume that everyone who came to my inbox with these sort of concern are doing it with good intentions. People can be strongly affected by media and I'm not going to try and debate them for the sake of the world. I understand your despair more than anything else, as I've spent countless nights crying myself to sleep over the tragedies we see everyday. It's not productive nor healthy, so I'm trying my best as an individual to live a peaceful life and do my best to help others whenever I can.

One of the things I'm trying to do is to not fall into shipping discourse debates for the sake of my mental health.

Here's the post in question with my longer answer to it.

Tldr; I am very much against Bl*nkshipping and I have that tag blocked, but I am ambivalent about the shippers themselves (mostly bc I don’t see them). There’s a whole can of worms about the relationship between morally gray topics in fiction vs people creating/consuming it that I’m not gonna spill.

[ashitakaxsan]

Manga and Anime In Iran

   It’s something usual news about that the one,or the other anime gets official broadcast in India.It’s good that the products of hard working Japanese animators gets in many lands of the world..However I daresay that it’s been given too much of emphasis,about what anime gets in India.So let’s pay attention to a land severly misunderstood:Iran.

The following it’s accurately the column Answerman of Animenewsnetwork:

Will Anime Ever Come To My Country (Legally)? by Justin Sevakis, Aug 28th 2015

Vahid asks:

 I'm from Iran, and I always read your answers on ANN. (Access to ANN is denied in Iran and i have to use proxy software to visit.) My country doesn't allow us to buy or sell anime and manga (because of Islamic issues, you know... naked girls, kissing, etc.), but there are many people here who watch anime and read manga. Just like other forbidden stuff in Iran (foreign music and movies) we have to illegally download them. It is so sad and annoying. Amazon and Ebay don't ship anything here because of US sanctions against Iran. Do you think someday it will be possible for us to have official anime and manga stuff? Does the anime and manga industry have any interest to be in Iran's market? Our currency is very weak against the US dollar. For example, most people earn only $300 per month. Does such a country with these difficulties have any reason to hope for involvement from the anime industry?

 First of all, thank you for writing in. It's really, truly gratifying to know that even people in countries we've never anticipated read our site (and my column) and enjoy it. That really made my day. I'm printing your letter not just to answer your question, but also to show our other readers how tough it can REALLY be to be an anime fan when you're not lucky enough to live in a country that permits such things. Think you have it tough because you can't afford a premium Crunchyroll subscription, or a Blu-ray release isn't to your liking? THIS is worse. Way, way worse.

So anyway, to answer your question, I have to get a little bit into current politics, and to be honest I am not an expert in middle east policy or politics, so I'm going to tread very lightly here.

From what I can tell, there are three major things standing in the way of anime being freely and legally available in Iran. The first are the sanctions against the country. This not only makes it illegal for someone to export an anime disc or merchandise item to Iran from America, but from basically any country in the United Nations -- so that takes out the entire European Union, Japan, Korea, Canada, Australia, and nearly every other country with an organized anime industry of any size. Any attempt to do business with Iran in any way is basically a non-starter until those sanctions are lifted. The good news is that a recent nuclear non-proliferation treaty between Iran and the US that would significantly ease those sanctions has been reached, although whether or not it'll be enacted is currently a hot political debate. Regardless, tensions do seem to be easing a little bit, so there's some reason for hope here. When trade is possible, a country's economy tends to recover, and the value of its currency will slowly get back to a level at which it's possible to do business again. It'll take some time.

The second major barrier is the big national ban on international entertainment products that are in any way sexualized. This is a political issue in Iran with its government censoring what people can see, based on their interpretation of Islamic morals. As long as that's as strict as it currently is, there's simply no way for anime to get imported in any form without it getting cut down to nothing -- there's simply too much the current regime would find offensive. I'm not qualified to say whether there's any indication that the government will liberalize its censorship practices, but countries do change, and they do change fast. Not necessarily all censorship needs to be lifted before anime can find its way in, but internet filtering of mainstream anime websites like ANN, Crunchyroll and Daisuki needs to happen, if nothing else.

The last barrier is the speed of most people's internet connection. According to the data I've found, only Tehran has broadband connections over 2 Mbps, which are necessary for decent quality internet video. This is important, because physical media and merchandise can be confiscated and seized at the border, making any venture dealing with that stuff a non-starter. Legal streaming sites, however, can be operated overseas and simply grant access to Iranian customers. If internet censorship gets loosened up and bandwidth speeds improve just a little, suddenly it becomes possible to grant legal access to the entire nation. It will probably take some years and a lot of smart people to figure out how to make it work as a business, but it would be possible.

Those are a lot of very tough obstacles to overcome. They will take years, perhaps even a generation, to enact. But change can happen very fast. Huge chunks of Asia, from China to Vietnam to South Korea, opened up and transformed in a major way in the last few decades, and it's possible for Iran too. I want that for you, and I hope the politics of the world allow it to happen someday”.

Original Source:https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2015-08-28/.92206

Below:Tourists visiting Naghshe Jahan Square in Isfahan https://blog.apochi.com/is-it-safe-to-travel-to-iran-in-2021/

My say:

  Vahid asked a nice Question to to ANN Answerman,he got the Good Answer.this clearly gives us light on something we don’t hear about from usual media.The Iranian fans of manga and anime,people who got irritated with the sanctions policy.I just sense that the JCPOA was a win-win case,where it cut some slack to many Iranian fans of manga and anime.

 Below:Iranian animators working at a studio of  the Institute for Intellectual Development of Children and Young Adults –  Kanoon. (Kanoon/Hamid Tavakkoli)    

 below:The Iranian vlogger,on Aparat  MH12 Live( https://www.aparat.com/MH12Live ) talks about his favorite action anime:Sword Art Online Fatal Bullet.

An other Iranian vlogger https://www.aparat.com/Itzomi1234 discusses in her video about manga,particularly her favorite:Attack on Titan !

Below:The Iranian musician,fan of inuyasha,Ahmad Mohamadiyan performing Inuyasha’s lullaby,see https://www.aparat.com/v/tVplb

The iranian https://www.aparat.com/Bahar161382.Dolati. And what vital does it have? Inuyasha dearest,Kikyo  https://www.aparat.com/v/GRvIT

The iranian website mentions the famous mangakas,including Eiichiro Oda,Takahashi Rumiko and Hajime Isayama!     https://www.tarafdari.com/node/1770335:

 https://vigiato.net/p/136206 :it’s all about Inuyasha:)

The following two iranian sites that mention-in good manner-Rumiko’s Maison Ikkoku:

https://aiofilm.top/anime/maison-ikkoku/

https://footofan.com/best-anime-college-setting/

Godai and Kyoko(Maison Ikkoku)

This is about Yashahime:https://www.cartonionline.com/fa/%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%BE%D8%B1%D8%B3/rumiko-takahashi-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A7%DB%8C-%DA%A9%D8%A7%D9%88%D8%B1-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B3%DB%8C%D9%82%DB%8C-%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%86-%D8%B4%D8%AE%D8%B5%DB%8C%D8%AA%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C-yashahime-%D8%B1%D8%A7-%D8%AA%D8%B1%D8%B3%DB%8C%D9%85-%D9%85%DB%8C-%DA%A9%D9%86%D8%AF/

Isn’t wholesome finding out there many people in Iran fans of manga and anime?

Later what did ...?

 But what later transpired gives off angry vibes.Because Donald Trump was elected president of US.This man disliked both JCPOA and Iran,he wanted to bring in a Win- Lose.He withdrew from JCPOA,he also brought in on  sanctions on Iran,thus he just made life uneasy for many Iranian otakus,and for the Iranian Animators too.

All his attitude  towards the people of Iran was Quite Belligerent,nasty.Well it backfired.He lost.

 The Sanctions on Iran are still on.It’s outcome is so many Ιranian otakus can’t get legaly anime and manga merchandise,and many Iranian Animators can’t co work with their respectful Japanese peers too. Please see :https://www.tumblr.com/ashitakaxsan/703271300019421184/bad-news-about-iranian-animation?source=share

In fact Google Play has removed the apps Aparat,Filimo and Rubika, from its store over 6 years ago(due to the U.S. sanctions against Iran).Such unfair act won’t be forever.

Conclusion

“You can’t use vinegar as bait,you can use honey to get the honeybee”.Τhe honeybee of the case is Iran:)

  Iran is civilized,tolerant ,with a fondness for the art of Animation,and the japanese culture.It really matters if  JCPOA would be revived,cause it will give easiness for  business and legal import of manga stuff in Iran. I want this to happen,and to blossom so nice that will lead the iranian ministry of culture grant a medal to Takahashi Rumiko,and to Hiromu Arakawa(creator of the current hit manga Arslan Senki) too.

.

[kaeyazuha]

Omg,,, are we slandering characters??

Okay but real talk; I agree with a lot of points made here. Yae made it hard for me to do Gorou’s hang out. And I swear I had to un-jam my space bar when I did her quest. She gives the energy of a person who’d fetishize things (like how this fandom loves to fetishize all the ships 😬 I don’t even wanna touch that topic)

I don’t like her personality or her design. It was so weird hearing her voice and her personality only to remember that’s she’s supposed to be the head shrine maiden.

Hoyo has a lot of issues with their characters. From designs to personality to interaction. And, by the heavens, the English translation makes it all the worse.

😀 I also don’t trust people who are down bad for the harbingers. Yes, their designs are amazing. I will admit that. I love how Columbina looks! I love how Pierro looks as well! But I could never ever find myself simping for them.

Especially Dottore. Especially. Dottore.

The only exception I have is Childe and,,, I won’t lie,,, Scaramouche. Although, the one of the main reason why these two are on my list is because I know they won’t seek harm on children. :) like most of them. I am staring. At Dottore. And Arlcheccino.

Anyways :^)

Idk how far in I can go w my dislike for characters and the fandom but,,, if I’m able to, I’m 100% willing to lmao

Hell yeah we are 💪

YES YES She always reminded me of those really weird fujoshi characters, like the ones in Kiss Him Not Me and Wotokoi- ughh she's creepy-- AND YES THE FETISHIZED SHRINE ATTIRE I hate it sm </3

Oooh you got me there though, I have a pretty soft spot for Childe and Scaramouche. So that one's debatable, but I completely respect your opinion! And yeah to hell with Dottore, he's sickening.

Oh wait I just realized HAHA okay yeah, I agree! Childe and Scaramouche overall have good morals, and only do what they're told for the most part? Scaramouche is debatable at times, but all in reasonable ways due to trauma. Dottore though? He's just a freak because it's fun to him, and I will never respect that or those who defend him. I'm excited to learn about the rest of the harbingers but I PRAY none of them are like him-

I get that! Any characters you really like? :D

[death-in-a-handbasket]

hey it’s bsdyumejoshi here. For the choose violence ask game:

8, 10, 13

oh HELL yeah let’s go let’s go

8: common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about

okay so I think a lot of commonplace stuff is kind of ??? to me anyways but I’m gonna be real with you chief I don’t think Mori is the super irredeemable evil asshole that everyone makes him out to be, is he weird and still a villain? absolutely yes! but also I don’t think he’s to the degree of monster that people think of him as and I think people spend so much time hating on him that they forget to actually put thought into pondering him as a character. like for a fandom that likes deep analysis and a chunk have even read the novels the characters wrote, I swear some of y’all forget sit down and take a character for what they are. I think he’s supposed to be a somewhat controversial and worth debate but the way people go about it blind makes me wonder did anyone actually learn anything from watching the internet argue about vriska. morally questionable is something that is allowed bro, have we forgotten the fun practice of enjoying a character for their uncouth behavior?

10: worst part of fanon

This is something I personally have beef with in all fandoms and that is the fact that people forget that not only do characters have personalities outside of ships but also platonic and not directly romantic/sexual relationships are things that exist, I don’t know why I am the odd one out on this and I don’t want to shit on people who are having a good time but a lot of the ships that people rave about don’t make sense to me, like you have to very articulately sell the idea to me before I can consider this. I might be a stickler for trying to remain canon accurate but unless there’s evidence or it logically makes sense in some way I’m not buying it, I think part of the issue is y’all have read so far into the enemies to lovers trope that the idea of regular enemies no longer exists. like buddy idk what y’all are reading but I have never been able to see sskk as a thing

13: worst blorboficiation

all of them have been blorboified in some way that makes me scratch my head but I think the worst cases that make my brain hurt the hardest are chuuya and sigma. I think somewhere it’s been lost in the sauce that these are two grown men with real motives and personalities outside of being shipped with people or being reduced to one defining personality trait. sigma is beautiful and definitely many of y’alls babygirl yes but he’s not some helpless wet meow meow or some delicate flower, bro’s knee jerk reaction to trying to fix a situation so far has been guns and explosives. bro ain’t no wilting pansy twink I’ll tell you that. chuuya probably has it worse though because he’s often either reduced to just skk where his only defining trait is dazai, characterized primarily for his temper, or also ruthlessly twinkified, this is a genuinely powerful and complex man and sometimes I think his legion of fans completely loses sight of who he is, overcook undercook etc etc anyways I think if both of these characters could read the posts made about them they would start grimacing

[sofuckingtiredjuice]

ok because its literally impossible to block and move on from all of b*bes, im making a fucking rant blog

its so frustrating to ssee the hypocrisy

antis if youre sending fucking death threats, PLEASE STOP NOW OH MY GOD i shouldn’t even have to explain why this is a problem. if you dont like their content, stop giving them attention. youll only see more of this drama if you pay attention to it. also pls stop badgering people to tell you about a certain neutral in the fandom oh my god pls. they dont create content for the people you dont like its obvious they just want to be friends with everyone so just ignore them if it upsets you. there are plenty of other content creators that DO agree with your ideals and your shipping preferences. please seek them out. seriously. and please dont flood their tag. it will just make them more angry.

beetleb*bes, you cannot deny there is hypocrisy within your own group as there is within mine. im not in a lot of circle of antis, but i do my fucking best to try and stop anyone from doing something provocative if i can. i know its only a handful of this group that is spiteful and angry. if you’re as calm and harmless as you claim, fucking do something about it PLEASE. instead you have a small group with a ringleader who is slandering your name. for example making a receipts blog that documented a harassing anons to a babe with a response from said targeted babe with a slur (i know they didn’t know the origin of the slur and have since learned the racist, ableist history it has) and only calling out the anon BUT THEN have the audacity to post an anon harassing a different babe using the same slur and having their buddy call out how horrible it was when they couldnt even call it out in the first place with one of their own. or for example drawing a cartoon beetlejuice about to “mercy kill” what seems to be musical beetlejuice BUT IS INSTEAD the actor who plays him, but THAT doesnt end up on the receipts blog. instead said blog has posted “poop ur pants” as a death threat/insult. pls tell me how that adds up

and both sides are guilty of this unfortunately. stop provoking each other. stop making art and text posts that will make the other mad. PLEASE. there are a lot of good creators on this tag and fandom that are going to leave because of this constant back and forth, me included. please stop dunking on different iterations of this character. whether we like it or not, they are all canonical versions of this character. 

im just ranting at this point because i want to let out my frustrations and soemtimes screaming into a void feels better and i doubt my words will reach anyone, but i hope it does make sense

EDIT: censored the group name because i forgot to the second time

[thethiefandtheairbender]

My homie please don't tell me you tried to equivalate the real life debate and seriousness bof the don't say gay bill to your anti vs. proship bs

Hi, out queer, ace, and trans person here! I also have an honours degree in the study & history of how fiction can influence reality. Let me take you for a walk (and I'll make sure it's short or else you'll pull the "you think I'm reading all that?") I also already know, thanks to looking at your blog, that you’ve decided I - a sex repulsed, ace adult in a relationship with another adult - am a pedophile, so thanks for bringing back the years of harassment I experienced when I was a literal minor but was unwilling to post my age online bc u know, I was a minor who wanted to keep my privacy a mind-whopping... 2.5 years ago. But clearly I’m decrepit and out of touch now. Never change, tumblr.

A lot of current American politics, including the Don't Say Gay bill (and previously the Hayes Code) was derived from puritanical Victorian era leanings and Calvinistic conservative Christianity. This includes: gayness as an identity > an act (trial of Oscar Wilde), idealization of motherhood, and the moral panic surrounding the 'degradation' of the English language that 18-19th century Grammarians were always concerned with (hi Samuel Johnson).

Another thing grammarians and writers have been concerned with since before is what is Okay to be portrayed in art. Plato's The Republic thinks that art is immoral because it may give people unrealistic or unsafe ideas because people are 'unable' to distinguish fiction from reality. He later retracted this, although Aristotle's Poetics was a text where Aristotle disagreed with Plato's prior established opinion.

Re: the past 3000+ years of literary discourse - those who try to restrict the radical aspects of art lose the argument every time, and start it back up 30 years later.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that art has always been very political, as is most things. Fandom, as a pop-junkie transformative spiel, has also been deeply political, particularly for marginalized people.

Fandom nowadays is full of people who believe that, in order to be really sorry about something, someone has to publicly repent per whatever moral standard has been decided to else the congregation - I mean twitter - will publicly shame them for their sin.

Fandom is entrenched in cultural Christianity and the conservative mindsets that come with it. Aphobia in fandom was rampant from 2014-2017; truscum and tucute discourse as well; how prevalent TERF rhetoric can be (women are inherently good, attraction to men is shameful, etc). I've seen all of these things in fandom. All hinge an idea on being able to decode a person's intent (somehow), the rising attachment of morality to genres of entertainment (antis), and how many antis I've seen that are TERFs or Aphobes or guzzling down that rhetoric without even realizing.

Terfs and the Conservative far-right have a long history of working together. Both frame concerns of gay people as pedophiles, being anti sex work (because sex is nasty and a sin), that we must Protect the Children who cannot monitor or make any decisions for themselves at any age. The anti vs pro ship dynamic online is a microism of larger public discussions regarding purity culture - and that includes how queerness is overly sexualized, how queer sex is seen as especially dirty, the "should kink be at pride?" discourse, and issues with respectability politics.

Antis who say we have to harass people to control what exists in fandom to "protect minors" on a moral basis are ideologically adjacent to parents who decry earlier Sex Education for children (which, every time it's implemented, is shown to decrease the amount of abuse children face, not further it). A quick scroll through your blog tells me you're willing to generalize hundreds of people's personal history with CSA because you don't think survivors can 1) vehemently disagree with you or 2) demand disclosure of their personal history to exist online void of that harassment.

Aka to take some tags to the forefront: #like the schools don't want to talk about queerness and are banning books so kids don't get Ideas#and people also don't want 'problematic' fiction in fandom in case kids get Ideas or can't use critical thinking skills#it's not a hard leap to make

It sounds like you're the one who has a problem with reading comprehension and building connections between different kinds of discourse, not me. It's almost like teenagers (queer or otherwise) raised in conservative or culturally Christian homes are more susceptible to puritanical rhetoric, or something... 🤔 (I could also get into just how American the current fandom anti vs pro conflict is, but I think this is long enough, don't you?)

A final note from this article:

Beyond betraying simple art illiteracy, though, these intensely personal, emotional complaints and appeals to public safety have a clear antecedent: religious and conservative opposition to “obscenity.” The centering of individual values and pain, the assumption that a universal moral standard exists which should guide all public or quasi-public art and behavior, and the belief that art can do material harm to both people and culture as a whole unite the two at first apparently disparate groups of angry indie gamers and religious fundamentalists.

The deployment of victimhood as an unimpeachable defense is an old tactic frequently used by hate groups like One Million Moms and its parent organization, the American Family Association, whose rallying cry “think of the children” now echoes through everything from intra-community Gay Pride discourse to the drearily predictable “there’s too much sex on TV” tweets that seem to sweep across the platform on a weekly basis.

[hamliet]

What Does It Mean to Save?

I keep seeing it said that Deku, Ochaco, and Shouto will “save” Shigaraki, Himiko, and Dabi, but that there will be no redemption and/or no survival for them. I’m truly not trying to vague these posts and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but literary criticism is fundamentally responsive so I’m writing this anyways.

I personally think that’s not BNHA’s definition of saving nor of redemption. So here, have a deep dive into literary tropes related to redemption, genre, and character arcs as they pertain to BNHA and the question of: what does it mean to save Shigaraki, Touya, and Himiko?

Before we begin, let me say that while we might be personally uncomfortable with redemption (there’s a redemption arc in BNHA I am personally quite uncomfortable with), that doesn’t inherently mean the narrative won’t go there. The key principle I’m operating on here is BNHA’s message that heroes save people. It’s held up as the highest ideal. 

So let’s talk redemption in BNHA-verse. With this guy, whose redemption arc I dislike in principle but accept as part of the story so don’t come for me stans and/or antis. I’m analyzing because it shows us what redemption means in BNHA-verse, whether or not that is satisfying to you personally as it fits/does not fit with your own morality/philosophy.

If Endeavor can be redeemed and live, and he’s Bakugou’s negative foil, I highly doubt Shigaraki and Deku as well as Touya and Shouto and Ochaco and Himiko will be any different. Why? Because Enji is an adult character. The others--well, Himiko’s age we don’t know, but we do know that Shigaraki and Dabi are technically adults. But does the story consider them adults?

(It doesn’t.)

Child-coded characters are generally more likely to survive a redemption, which I’ll explain more later. First I have to define what I mean by child-coding, because I DO NOT mean this in the way it’s often (mis)used in fandom wank. Child-coding is a real thing, but it is not done to infantilize and it has nothing to do with shipping.

Child coding frames the character as a child for a few narrative purposes to convey a story’s theme or purpose. For example, if it’s a coming of age story coding a character as a child even if they legally are not emphasizes their journey to an understanding of self-actualization, or a true understanding of self with self-awareness and an understanding of self-value. An example of an adult coded as a child is The Kite Runner, wherein Amir is a legal adult for half the story, even married for fifteen years so we’re talking 30s-40s, but he does not truly become an adult until he returns to his homeland and takes responsibility for a childhood sin. In Attack on Titan, the main characters are now nineteen, but are still struggling to take responsibility as adults and have only started doing so now that their mentors/parental figures have started dying.

Along those lines, in any kind of story, you can code a character as a child of someone, regardless of biological relationship, to convey the type of relationship they have (usually a mentor one). For an example of this, see Bungo Stray Dogs’ Dazai and Akutagawa. Despite their two year age difference, Dazai recruited him to the mafia, abandoned him, and Akutagawa desperately seeks his approval. Usually in these stories a character will “overcome” their parental figure. This can be done through overcoming their need for the parental figure’s approval in stories where the parental figure is kindly (such as in Harry Potter, when in the final book Harry, Ron, and Hermione leave the Weasleys to find the Horcruxes despite Mrs. Weasley’s please) or through like, killing/stopping/leaving the parental figure when they are abusive (see fairy tales like Rapunzel and Cinderella). The parental link to self-actualization is because it is childlike (and a part of actual psychology that is reflected in literature) to see yourself as a part of your parent; self-actualized person would see yourself as a distinct person from your parent, but also acknowledge the ways in which they’ve shaped you.

So, how do you code a character as a child? BNHA isn’t subtle about it, because Horikoshi seldom is subtle about anything. The villain trio are all coded as children.

Shigaraki Tomura:

Who cannot achieve self-actualization so long as AFO has access to his body, as he’s literally trying to possess him. He’s trying, but it’s not gonna work because Shigaraki can’t keep AFO and become an adult at the same time. It’s a choice the narrative is setting up: your dream of destroying, or your freedom? (To get the latter, he’ll probably have to destroy AFO).

Todoroki Touya, who is repeatedly emphasized as a small child when compared to his siblings, and yes, I know he’s now tall. Specifically he’s spotlighted as the child of Endeavor:

And he’s the least self-actualized one in a lot of ways, contradicting himself constantly. I’m not Endeavor, DUH! But these are Endeavor’s flames! He’s gonna have to choose one or the other, because the tragic irony is that the more he takes out his rage on those around him, the more like Endeavor he becomes.

And Toga Himiko (who might well literally be a legal child), who is actually the most self-actualized one thus far, because she rejects Curious’s child insistence (Curious holds her in a Pieta pose, based on Michelangelo’s statue wherein Mary holds a deceased Christ):

She’s still got, like, a way to go though:

Because Himiko also wants to be like the people she loves to the point where she loses her own identity in them, which is er, not self-actualization. So she’ll have to choose whether or not she really wants to be like the people she loves or whether she wants to live her own way, which she herself tells us how that would end (death):

Deku said it himself: it’s good to focus on what someone is doing now. And look, I have issues with this statement and how it’s framed. I’ve talked about it at length and it was doomed to fail because Shouto himself told us long ago that it was annoying to hear a righteous speech by a stranger when you hadn’t gone through the same, plus Endeavor kinda failed by choosing being a hero over a dad here. But, the principle is that if the past doesn’t preclude Endeavor from seeking a better self, why would it preclude three characters coded as children, one of whom is literally somewhat the product of Endeavor’s sins? BNHA doesn’t think the past keeps someone from a better future. 

So what about Dabi’s counterpoint, which is indeed valid? Well, redemption doesn’t mean the past forgets, either. It’s complicated and nuanced, and we can debate how well Horikoshi strikes this nuance (it’s got its flaws), and admittedly I don’t know how this will go down in the future. But it is asking Endeavor: how do you redeem yourself to the people you’ve hurt? And we have Endeavor asking this question to Touya’s shrine. I mean, the foreshadowing is obvious. Endeavor has to redeem himself by trying to save Touya. However, it will still probably come down to Shouto to save Touya.

For our three villains, it’s a little harder to predict... well, sort of. For Shigaraki it’s extremely obvious: he has to help take down AFO. Dabi probably has to do something to help his family (siblings probably), but it’s vague. Toga needs help and not condemnation, but presumably she’ll help Ochaco with something.

So, is this redemption? I’d define it as redemption in the eyes of the narrative. To address what makes a redemption is another essay unto itself, but if we bring in the oft-compared Star Wars example: did Darth Vader get a redemption? Did Ben Solo? Everyone says yes to both. However, only Luke witnesses Vader’s redemption, and only Rey Ben Solo’s. So the rest of the galaxy? Doesn’t think so. When I say they’ll be redeemed, I’m defining it as their role in the eyes of the narrative, not whether or not society will accept them or even whether their victims will forgive them (of note, in canonical novels, Leia never forgave Darth Vader despite learning he was her father and obviously knowing Luke’s account of his redemption was true).

So, redemption in a narrative doesn’t mean all of society has to forgive and accept them. Dabi has still like, murdered 30 people--many of whom were thugs, but he himself acknowledges they didn’t deserve to die. Additionally, he himself also acknowledges that the families left behind--their feelings matter:

But why does that mean they have to die? Why even does it mean they have to languish in prison forever? (If there’s even a safe prison at the end of BNHA which I kinda have doubts about.) Heroes have also killed: see Hawks as Exhibit A. In fact, some people want revenge on the heroes precisely because they arrested or killed their loved ones (jail isn’t held up as a rehabilitative place in BNHA’s world. In most countries it isn’t in real life, either, but again that’s for another essay). So why don’t the League’s feelings on Twice’s death matter just as much as the feelings of unnamed and unseen (and thereby less important narratively) characters?

Additionally, regarding death... the villains routinely get called on their death wishes. Himiko’s determination to decide how/when she dies is called out because this is right  before Twice overcomes his trauma to save her, and the next arc they appear in is when Twice dies trying to save her again. Dabi’s suicide wish keeps him from getting close to others, and it keeps getting thwarted. Shigaraki’s obsession with destruction and death is clearly not a good thing, and his rejection of his family’s desire for them to join him in death this past arc is growth.

In other words: what Dabi said and what Snatch said about families and how they feel matter for the villains too. The villains are their own weird found family (Dabi as the deadbeat prodigal brother of both his families). Their deaths--Magne’s and Twice’s thus far, and I’m not ruling out further deaths in the future--affect the others. People’s feelings on losing loved ones matter. The villains are people, as Himiko said herself this arc:

Their feelings about each other matter:

How would Touya dying affect the Todorokis? At least they saved him spiritually, I guess, but that’s absolutely lame narratively, and if you have Enji eventually do a sacrifice to save Dabi (pretty likely, even if I personally think Enji will survive said sacrifice) then what’s the point of Dabi dying? How would Himiko dying affect society? As a martyr like Curious wanted her to be, even a redeemed one? A tragic warning story? What even is the point of Ochaco saving her if that’s the case? If Shigaraki dies, well, who would mourn besides Deku? How would Shigaraki dying affect the surviving members of the league? He just couldn’t be saved physically? 

It’s not impossible some of this happens, but it doesn’t seem like great writing, especially with panels like, oh, these that show us BNHA’s perspective on death:

Sacrificing something is a type of death that occurs in stories; this should happen in a redemption arc, which is why I’ve been saying Enji needs to sacrifice his hero reputation to help save Touya and even then it’ll still be Shouto imo who does the saving. But physical death?

If you want further analysis of the latter two panels and how they relate to the ending, see here.

We already have another villain who will definitely die redemptively (Kurogiri--an adult coded character--because he’s already, like, dead), and Spinner and Mr. Compress aren’t coded as kids so I hold them with anxiety towards the end. But again, this isn’t me being ageist or saying this is the way things ought to be in fiction or real life: it’s me looking at writing tropes and saying that child-coded characters tend to survive their redemptions. See: Zuko. Why? Because the death of children or child-coded characters is a tragedy. When a child-coded character dies redemptively it doesn’t feel like a happy ending and if framed as such, it’s often criticized for bad writing (see: Ben Solo). Curious even called this out in her fight with Himiko. I would hope Horikoshi doesn’t end the story being like yeah Curious was right that’s the best use of Himiko’s/Dabi’s/Shigaraki’s arcs:

Additionally, as for the believability of a character getting a new chance after so much destruction and murder... well, it’s kinda a thing in shonen and even in seinen? For better or for worse, it’s a thing. We have Vegeta in Dragon Ball Z and Kaneki Ken in Tokyo Ghoul (Kaneki, by the way, is absolutely an inspiration for Shigaraki). We can debate how well-written these redemptions are (I personally have been quite critical of Kaneki’s despite wanting it to happen narratively), but it can be done. BNHA’s Japan especially isn’t as harsh a world as Tokyo Ghoul’s Japan, so it would make even more sense for something like Kaneki’s ending.

The reality is that the cycle of revenge via hurting people and then leaving hurting families and loved ones has to stop somewhere. Someone has to be the bigger person and step up and be like “naw.” That’s heroic. That’s brave. That’s sacrificial itself. Justice itself doesn’t really exist in its purest form without mercy.

There’s another genre-reason I don’t see death or jail as likely (I could see, like, maybe a mental health ward like Rei’s? But it’s too soon to speculate).

If saving is considered a good thing for the story, if it’s truly the highest ideal, then saving someone should be rewarded by the narrative. The characters who save should have a positive result to show us this a good thing.

This is why it doesn’t work for the heroes’ end journey to be accepting that some people cannot be saved. The notion of just accepting that you cannot do something, you cannot save everyone, you cannot, cannot, cannot, is called out as a flaw of society. Determination, on the other hand, is rewarded.

We see it with Deku as well as with Mirio.

So, what if they save them and the redeemed characters then go on to sacrifice themselves in their redemption and die (come to the same end)? If saving changes absolutely nothing for the saved person, if it’s too late for the saved from themselves to change and/or do anything that matters besides die, then the narrative theme of saving as important is left unemphasized at best and undermined at worst. Simple intrinsic knowledge that the kids “did the right thing” doesn’t cut it for a story with so much focus on physical saving when the kids are already doing the right thing; moral struggles about whether to choose to be good aren’t really Deku, Ochaco, or Shouto’s arcs. It works for Aizawa’s arc with Kurogiri, but not for the kiddos. If BNHA was more of a philosophical/spiritual text, that would indeed make sense, but it is not. Genre-wise, BNHA is a fantastical superhero optimistic story, not a gritty real-world set drama.

[neon-junkie]

Hey everyone,

This will be my final post addressing the fandom conflict that has quite frankly gotten out of hand. Although it’s very likely this post will be picked apart, no matter how well intended it is, I will no longer be addressing, interacting, or responding to any further accusations made against me. Of course, if people have questions from a genuine place of interest, I will be happy to clarify anything for you, either via DM’s or non-anon asks. I will not be answering anonymous asks on this, as I do not want anything else posted on this topic. 

As a side note: For anyone tempted to wade into the debate, I sincerely ask you not to get involved. Do not make yourself a target, do not feel you need to ‘pick a side’, and please do not think you have an obligation to reason with either side. It seems to be well past the point of that, so please find people you get along with in this fandom and curate a space for yourself away from all this conflict.

Warning: This post will contain uncensored slurs, mentions of racism, paedophilia, transphobia, LGBTQ+ phobia, death threats, threats of violence, targeted harassment, and abusive language.

To start off, I want to apologise to everyone who has somehow gotten drawn into this mess by either defending me, following me, or interacting with my content. This whole situation with me began well over a year ago when I wrote a crack-smut fic featuring Javier/Micah, posted back in August 2019. A crack fic is defined as “a work of fan fiction that is absurd, surprising or ridiculous, often intentionally.” It was inspired by a camp interaction between Micah and Javier, and like many other fanfiction writers, I decided to write smut about it. The fic was titled ‘Dirty Fucking Greaser’, and if that shocks you, I’m sure you can imagine how shocked I was to be informed afterwards that ‘Greaser’ was in fact a very serious 19th century slur for a Mexican individual. My first encounter with this word as insult was via RDR2, where it was used like a very casual insult. My only prior knowledge of this term was in regards to the greasers youth subculture, so the severity was lost on me. This obviously does not excuse my ignorance, and I should have researched the term better, but this is just again to apologize for that oversight, the insensitivity, and to highlight that my use of this term was not meant maliciously. Following this being pointed out, I proceeded to make 3 separate apology posts [Unfortunately I can only find the third one: HERE], renamed the fic, and added slur warnings in both the tags and the fic description. When I continued to receive complaints and increasingly aggressive abuse (which included being told my apologies weren’t good enough and I should delete my account and even kill myself), I attempted to delete the fic and mistakenly abandoned it instead. I contacted AO3 to see if it could be removed, but they said there was nothing they could do. I contacted their DMCA takedown team, who also said they couldn't remove it. Please note that all this happened 7-8 months ago, and has been dragged on for almost a year. 

So, from this one unfortunate incident, I’ve been branded a racist, and someone who attacks POC, when all I have done is tried to defend myself and correct my past mistakes. I could have done this more gracefully in the past, but frankly when you’re suddenly the target of unrelenting callout posts and nasty anons, it’s very hard to be open to criticism of this sort, but this is what I’m trying to move past.

Over the course of the year, this one mistake has spiralled, and the crusade against me has somehow coincided with moral conflicts over certain characters and ships. This has devolved into dehumanizing abuse, witch hunts, death threats, doxxing, anon hate, and much more unpleasant behaviour.

I have been in fandom for a very long time, and at the heart of all fandom circles is the fear of censorship and subsequent purges, so the ‘ship and let ship’ mentality was more or less the pinnacle of fandom philosophy. And yes, this can be problematic in some contexts. People have their right to be uncomfortable with content, have a right to be offended by content, but that is not content meant for you. This argument has devolved into ‘what material is morally right to engage with’ and that is a mentality in which fandom will not survive, because for every person who is telling me I’m an awful person for writing about Micah, there are three other people telling me how much they appreciate me making that content. For every fic in which I characterize Javier and Flaco a certain way, some people are made uncomfortable by it and others tell me they enjoy it. And this isn’t just white people, but POC too, which makes it very difficult to know whether I am genuinely in the right or the wrong, especially when it comes to the concept of ‘fetishization’ which I have been made aware I need to educate myself on. I intend to do so, but I disagree with the common accusation that finding non-white men romantically and sexually attractive is inherently fetishistic and makes me racist. It’s pushing a catch-22; don’t find POC sexually attractive? Racist. Find POC sexually attractive? Racist.

I am always willing to be (politely) approached about anything my readers may be concerned about, but if it’s something I’ve specifically tagged for (such as themes, scenarios, etc.) I’m afraid you consented to reading it and with that I cannot help you. You are just as responsible for curating your space and what you see/read just as much as I am responsible for tagging it appropriately.  

On the topic of racism, I want to bring up my prior use of ‘white racism’ which has obviously been a point of contention among both white and people of colour. The (literal) black vs white concept of racism is incredibly American-centric, and as someone from Europe, which has a history of oppression against white cultures and those of people of colour, it feels inaccurate. However, this has recently been discussed with me and I came to the realization that while growing up, especially in the UK, ‘xenophobia’ and ‘racism’ were marketed as one and the same. So, with this little revelation in mind, I will no longer be using ‘white racism’ (Or ‘reverse racism’) to identify the abuse I have been receiving, but will instead call it by what it really is; dehumanizing, debasing, xenophobic, puritanical.   

Very briefly, I will also touch on the NewAustin situation, which has also been dredged into this. I did not ‘chase a POC from tumblr’. NA was a minor who for some reason was on my 18+ blog and took issue with me, likely from the ongoing discourse regarding my fic and initial mistake, as well as my interest in Micah. They were subsequently harassed into deleting their account by anonymous hate following various conflicts with other users for their support of me or their ships in general. I have never encouraged my followers to target anyone, and have always asked to be blocked and blacklisted by those who do not like me or my content. When NewAustin messaged me following the deletion of their blog, I was admittedly indifferent to the point of being unkind, and accused them of sending the hate themselves. This was based on the anon hate being racially-driven without there being any prior knowledge or publication that NA was a person of colour. This aside, I should have at the time, whether I believed it was my followers or not, condemned this behaviour. Regardless of the issues I’ve had with these people, it is never ever ok to send hate to anyone, no matter the motivation behind it, and that should have been stated at the time.

All I can do at this point is acknowledged and apologize for my past mistakes, and try to improve myself going forward.  

It is not my place to dictate the morals of the character/ship-aspect of this argument, and I am not interested in waging a war of opinion. This post is simply to clarify how I am involved in this, and why I am so viscerally targeted. You can draw your own conclusions, but I am no longer interested in this endless back and forth.

To my mutuals/followers, I stand by my request to not interact and to block and move on, as this is what I’ll be doing too.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I hope it makes things from my perspective a little clearer.

-RAT <3

EDIT: Just after this post was made, the fic in question was finally removed. I had to go through a DMCA take down, which can take months, since I originally abandoned the fic, thinking that meant delete. I explain this in more detail above. Said fic is gone, and has been gone since this post has been around.

[bumblingbabooshka]

Concept: Star Trek Voyager ageswap au episode where through some sort of alien shenanigans each crew member has a person from their life that’s transported onto the ship with them and the moral quandary of the episode is how they’re gonna have to let them go back to earth because there’s a time limit on how long they’re able to stay before the portal that opened up to take them through closes.

The reason why voyager can’t also go home is that it’s a ‘return trip’ type of deal. The phenomena brought people here and can take THOSE people back but it cannot take Voyager back as it didn’t come through the portal initially. It’d just tear the ship apart and kill everyone on board.

This is the episode the audience is introduced to T’Pel, Tuvok’s fiancée.

Other sideplots: Chakotay realizes Janeway has a boyfriend Mark whom she breaks up with at the very end of the episode because he’s like “If you force me to leave you then that’s it. I can’t wait anymore.” and Janeway sadly does the right thing and despite them both clearly being into each other throughout the episode she sends him back and they break up.

Tom Paris and B’elanna deal with parental issues as no one showed up for either of them. 

Harry Kim just fucking vibes with his parents, he’s just having a good time and his parents are so happy and proud of him.

________ T’Pel and Tuvok are mostly ignored by the narrative until it’s time to send everyone back and the watcher’s looking anxiously at how much time’s left in the episode and it’s a surprising amount and then everyone’s like “Hey where are Tuvok and T’Pel?” and Tuvok’s in his quarters so Janeway goes to check on him and she finds that he’s standing there with T’Pel sitting on the bed and she calmly says that she’s not gonna go, she’s staying on voyager.

(very clear reaction shot pause as music swells for a cut to commercial)

Janeway: What do you mean you’re staying on Voyager?

T’Pel: That I will remain on the ship.

Tuvok seems distressed (in as much as he can) by her insistence, calling it illogical. Throughout the episode the only real scenes with Tuvok and T’Pel have been ones where he’s obviously been somewhat distant from her, being the only one in the ship carrying on with his duties and going about his regular work. There are some jokes about a ‘vulcan warm welcome’ or some such and T’Pel is mostly accompanied by other crewmen. Tuvok and T’Pel now get into an argument/debate as to why it is or isn’t illogical with T’Pel making the point that she is a trained medical professional and could assist the doctor and Tuvok making the point that she has a life back home that she will be missed in and should continue living. Janeway sides with Tuvok as that’s also the reason she sent Mark home. 

The episode then turns into a bit of shipwide debate about questions like: If someone chooses to stay then who are we to say no? Can someone fully consent to staying here since they don’t understand the dangers and the enormity of the decision? 

But near the end of the episode all of the crew are saying tearful goodbyes to their loved ones and we see Tuvok and T’Pel in an empty corridor. Tuvok attempts to say goodbye to her here but she refuses, again asserting that she will stay. Tuvok seems frustrated by this as he and Janeway’s argument prevailed earlier. He again says she’s being illogical.

T’Pel:  I recognize the merit of the argument. Tuvok: But not the truth of it? T’Pel: I see no absolute truth of it. The argument presupposes I am unaware of the great risk involved or blinded by sentiment. I am not.

Tuvok: I do not understand your insistence on staying. I do not understand why you came here in the first place. It is il-

T’Pel:  It is not illogical. 

We the audience pause in horror as a tear runs down T’Pel’s cheek though her voice does not betray the emotion that caused it. Tuvok appears visibly shocked by this.

T’Pel:  It is not illogical. I will stay.

T’Pel then leaves and Tuvok, still shocked, goes to find someone to talk to. This someone turns out to be Tom Paris as in his mind the man is an expert at upsetting women. He runs through the conversation with him and Tom suggests Tuvok hurt her feelings. Tuvok says he was simply attempting to get her to see reason and go back before it was too late. Tom suggests that Tuvok wanted to hurt her feelings so that their separation would be less painful. Tuvok leaves, claiming that untrue and very human.

T’Pel is sitting on Tuvok’s bed, eyes closed in what appears to be a light meditation. Tuvok enters and she doesn’t stir. He stands first, silently, then sits beside her.

Tuvok: I apologize for upsetting you earlier. 

T’Pel: I apologize for becoming upset. I should exercise better control.

Tuvok:...I believe I may have instigated such a reaction, the blame lies partially with me.

(A silence.)

T’Pel: You were correct.

(Tuvok waits for her to elaborate.)

T’Pel: It is illogical. The true reason for my insistence was not the doctor nor the crew, it was you. 

(T’Pel and Tuvok both sit in this admission for a moment.)

T’Pel: I was...lonely. I missed you as the open right eye does the closed left. When we are together...I can see. Wholly. 

(She quickly moves on from this, embarrassed.)

T’Pel: But I understand I was being foolish and that you do not share this belief. This has been clear in your every word and action and yet I have willingly blinded myself to it. This cannot continue. As such I will concede and-

Tuvok: I must apologize.

T’Pel: There is no need t-

(Tuvok’s hand brushes against hers.)

Tuvok: I must apologize.

(T’Pel waits for him to elaborate.)

Tuvok: My attempts to distance myself from you were not out of a lack of...care. I erroneously believed that it was illogical to make any attempts at becoming closer when we would soon be parted again and you would continue your life on the colony. Thus, when you refused to go I was...ashamed. It was cowardly of me. (A short silence.) It is illogical on my part but I ...wish, I had made a better impression. Your conviction is admirable. 

T’Pel: ...Erroneously? 

(She places her pinky over his. He hooks his around hers.) 

Tuvok: It was illogical to believe that I could prevent myself from becoming closer to you. Your very presence draws me closer. It was foolish and I apologize, with all that I am.

T’Pel: I accept it as I accept you.

(She kisses him in the vulcan way.)

T’Pel: -soft- Wholly.

[nancylou444]

Questions from a Heller because I’m actually curious and want to know your train of thought. I know Hellers only see the worst of wincest shippers, and wincest shippers only see the worst of Hellers, so this is my attempt to have both of us see the better sides of each other.

I do ship Destiel, though not inherently romantically (I have weird views on relationships that don’t work with common terminology, and I think that one can have close, meaningful, and intimate relationships without them necessarily being sexual or romantic). I do think Wincest is wrong, but, like, it’s fiction and trying to debate morality here is gonna end up being useless, because neither of us are gonna change our minds, so lets not bother to discuss that here and just accept it as a fundamental difference in morality.

One, why do you think Cas and Dean’s relationship is insignificant? I really disagree with you here because it’s shown time and time again throughout the show how much Dean cares for Cas. He’s stated that he thinks of Cas as family. Also, Cas has been shown to have significant relationships with other characters as well. Sam and Cas have had moments of bonding, and Mary called Cas one of her boys. So yeah I guess I’m asking what you think Cas’s role in the show is and how you view his relationships with other characters.

Two, what do you think changes Sam and Dean’s relationship into something other than brothers? They do clearly love each other very much, but I still see it as a brotherly relationship, and family bonds. Again, it’s possible to have deep and intimate relationships without romance or sex.

Three, because I haven’t seen it on your blog and I’m curious, what do you think of Jack, and his relationship with Sam and Dean and Cas?

Four, what do you dislike about Destiel that you think makes the ship deserving of hate? Not the fans, but the ship itself. I am aware that their relationship is not an ideal relationship by any means, but the same goes for pretty much all of the reoccurring relationships in the show, due to everyone’s trauma and mental health issues and the circumstances they’ve endured over the course of their lives. I am really big on the idea of healing, and being able to improve yourself and the relationships with your family and friends, and to me the appeal of Destiel is seeing how Cas and Dean can make each other better, how Cas shakes Dean out of the roles he’s played since he was a kid and forces him to confront the ways he sees himself, and how Dean has fundamentally changed Castiel and literally taught him how to be human, how to love.

Five. You liked the finale. I understand why. I hate the finale. Yes, Destiel is part of that. However, my main issue is the fact that Dean died, and it was framed as a happy ending, and the only way for him to have that. A very dangerous message for people with mental health issues. Jared has had the message of “Always Keep Fighting” for years, and I feel like Dean’s death contradicts that. He just gained free will, and he dies before he gets a chance to exercise it? I feel the “happy Heaven” ending is.. I’m not sure how to explain it but like, too easy? A cop-out? A way to avoid the difficult writing of starting Dean on the road to a happy life. I think Dean should have gotten a chance to actually live his life the way he always wanted to, and Sam should have been able to have his brother in his life. I don’t think either of them could have been happy with the tragedy of the other’s death. What is your opinion on Dean’s death, and, if positive, why do you think so? What is your response to the suicidal undertones of Dean’s death? If you wanna know my preferred ending then tell me, this is getting too long for me to get into that.

I do admit that sometimes the fans can be stupid, but the same thing can be said about wincest shippers and practically any group. Also, Hellers are only gonna hear about the worst of wincest shippers, and wincest shippers are only gonna hear about the worst of Hellers, so both of us have clouded views on each other, and that’s why discussion is important. I’ve mostly seen good things from Hellers. I know your point of view is different. That’s why I’m asking to for your side of things, and attempting to explain mine.

Again, I’m simply curious as to your point of view, and do not mean to attack you in any way.

The only reason I didn’t delete this, is because I know it took a lot of time and thought, and I can respect that. 

Having said that, I’m not going to spend that much time responding to all of this. I’m just going to hit a few things. 

1. Cass and Dean don’t have a ‘relationship’. They barely had a friendship at the end. Cass’ confession was more about fanservice and Misha selling merchandise than about love. 

2. Are you asking me to explain FANON WINCEST? Because CANON wincest is right there in the show. 

3. I liked Jack for the most part. I think Sam was his main ‘caregiver’ so to speak. As for his relationship to Dean and Cass, I didn’t give it much thought. 

4.  to me the appeal of Destiel is seeing how Cas and Dean can make each other better  how Cas shakes Dean out of the roles he’s played since he was a kid and forces him to confront the ways he sees himself, You have got to be kidding me. Cass makes Dean better? How? Cass has done NOTHING to alter Dean’s love for SAM. And that is Dean’s focus in life. 

I notice that you seem to skim over the CANON times where Cass beat Dean.  

5. Did Dean put himself on the rebar? Oh Dean has killed himself a few times in the show, but they were always for SAM. His death in the finale was NOT suicide. Nor were there any ‘undertones’ of suicide. 

The show began with Sam and Dean. The show has always been about Sam and Dean. The show should have and DID end with Sam and Dean together. 

Not to be rude, but I’m sure your ‘preferred ending’ involved Cass and probably Eileen, and I don’t give a crap about it. Save that fanfic for YOUR blog. 

I’ve mostly seen good things from Hellers. Of course you have, maybe you need to step out of your bubble and see how REAL destiehellers act. 

[dylanobrienisbatman]

Omg give us ur rant abt hating d*rklina as a ship.. im petty

Okay Anon, so i saw this the other day and I wasn't in the right headspace to answer but i am now!

So to start off, I am firmly in the ship and let ship category. You like a ship, i don't care. That doesn't mean i won't rag on the ship itself but I don't send hate, I don't really engage with shippers from ships I don't like, and I am liberal with the block button and the blacklist feature. Cultivate your tumblr/online experience, y'all. You don't owe anyone on this hellsite (or any other) a damn thing.

However, I REALLY do hate d*rklina as a ship, and I have a big problem with the way the shippers talk about it, so I hope you were being serious about wanting a rant because here it goes.

As for the ship itself, i feel like the reasons I dislike it are pretty obvious and standard. It's abusive. He is her abuser. He manipulates her. He spends months grooming her and gaslighting her, intentionally trying to get her under his control so that when he literally enslaves her it will go over easier. He never actually loved her, he wanted to use her for her power. It's not complicated, it's not really 'up for debate', that is the way its written, and the author has explained that that was the intended interpretation of her work. I mean he literally sexually assaults her in the second book, and straight up tells her he's going to kill everyone she loves so that she has no choice but to fall to him because she is completely alone in the world. He threatens to skin her alive in the second book when they're on the boat, he has no problem torturing her to get Mal to do what he wants. That's not love. He does not love her. It's pretty black and white, its explicitly written as an abusive relationship. The point was to show how easily powerful men can manipulate and abuse young naive women who don't know any better and try to see the best in people. Alina 'fell' for the version of Darkles Sparkles that he intentionally created to try to control her. Nothing he told her was true, from his backstory, to them both being 'the only one like [each other]' (hello, baghra), to using Genya to convince Alina that Mal had abandoned her, everything he did was manipulation so that he could get her under his control. It is not a romance, it is not 'a ship war', d*rklina is not written as romantic. He is her abuser. Full stop.

There is also the point about him being just a generally horrible person all around. He's not morally grey. He just isn't. He sold an 11 year old into sex slavery, forced her to stay in that situation so he could use her, and then mutilated her when she defied him. He also groomed and abused Zoya, because he saw that she was exceptionally powerful and wanted to use her the way he wanted to use Alina. He enslaved Alina. He blinded and mutilated his own mother. He is a genocidal maniac. He shows no remorse, he doesn't care about anyone but himself and his own power. He is not the type of character that should be romantically shipped with anyone. If you like him, that's absolutely fine! One of my fave characters ever is Kai Parker from TVD. Dude was a straight up psychopath. He tried to kill multiple pairs of toddlers. He brutally murdered his pregnant sister AT HER WEDDING. He is a HORRIBLE person. But I think he's a brilliant character. But do I think he's a good guy, do I want him anywhere near any characters in that show in a romantic way (ehem b*nkai)? Absolutely fucking not. Being a fan of a villain character is fine, but fucking own that shit. Villains can be SUCH good characters, but they're still villains. Erasing the bad they've done so you can justify putting them in situations where they WILL harm the people around them because you can't level with yourself about the bad things they've done doesn't make you 'woke', it just makes you look like you don't understand the media you're consuming.

Which leads me to why I have such a problem with the way D*rklina shippers engage with the ship. They simultaneously wanna say "oh we know it's toxic/bad/abusive/etc., that's why we like it!" and then also they try to claim that it should be endgame, they romanticize scenes where he is abusing her (and by romanticize I mean they literally try to frame his abuse as romantic, not like "oh yeah my ship is interacting!!". those are different things. You can be excited about ship interactions without trying to say that things he is doing to her are actually romantic), they try to argue that he is morally grey/misunderstood/etc., and they straight up try to lie and say he's not her abuser.

If you wanna ship an abusive ship, own it. Be straight up about why you like it. It's okay to be into dark shit, y'all. It does NOT make you a bad person to be into dark shit. But this idea that fiction doesn't impact real life, and that people can't call the ship out for what it is is a problem is a very troubling trend in fandom. Nobody is saying you can't ship it, do what you want. But this idea that these people are 'oppressed' because fans of the show/book continue to point out the facts about the way the story was written and how the relationship is actually presented is fucking insane. Someone saying that D*rklina is abusive is not calling you out, they are stating a fact. It's the story as it was presented. You trying to say it's not makes it look like you have no reading comprehension. And this idea that 'well i'll be on the lookout for evil shadow wizards in real life lol' is such horse shit too. His shadow wizard powers aren't the issue. He is a powerful man who grooms and abuses young women. You're telling me you lived through the Me Too movement and you wanna act like thats not a real threat that young women face every day? You're telling me that you can't see that the actual real life connection you're supposed to be making here? Okay, well you should maybe deal with that and come back to me, because that's an issue.

Fiction is meant to teach us lessons. Darkles is meant to teach us something. He is meant to show us that sometimes, powerful men lie to, manipulate, groom, and abuse young women, and we should be aware of that. The story is about a young woman who is sucked into an abusive situation, and then she breaks free and in the end she is able to defeat her abuser. That is a really powerful story, and one that millions of real life women can relate too. To pretend that that story doesn't have real life connections makes you look insensitive and frankly, kind of cruel.

So basically, in the end, my biggest issue is that D*rklina shippers love to spout this nonsense about 'knowing' it's bad and that he's a villain, and 'that's why they like him', and then turn around and try to say that he's not actually the villain, he's not actually bad, and the things he does to Alina that are abuse are actually romantic and sweet. You wanna ship an abusive ship, you do you, but lets not pretend it's anything other than what it is, but romanticizing and normalizing abuse tactics so you can feel, what? morally superior? Cool? edgy and different? That has real life impacts. You are normalizing abuse. Real people will engage with that rhetoric, and it will make it difficult for them to see abuse when it happens to them or the people around them because they believe its romantic or normal to be treated that way.

You wanna be a villain stan? You wanna ship dark ships? Good on ya, but fucking own your shit, y'all.

[esther-dot]

I think the problems with the current state of the Sansa fandom are really just problems with the state of the ASOIAF fandom in general. The fandom has always had its problems, don't get me wrong, but it does seem to me that discussion and debate used to be valued a lot more. People who disagreed completely on a certain subject could still have a respectful conversation about it, even acknowledge that the other person had a few good points, ultimately agree to disagree, and really mean it. I've been here since 2009, and even for Sansa fans, who have indeed always gotten a lot of hate, there were nonetheless plenty of people with different opinions on her who were willing to listen respectfully to what we had to say, and some of them even softened their opinion of her because of it. In general, different viewpoints were more widely seen as a good thing because it gave everyone a rounder, more nuanced understanding of the story. Now, it's a case of everyone adopting more and more extreme opinions and simply doubling down on those opinions whenever challenged. For the most part, everyone interacts only with people who agree with them, meaning that everyone, and I do mean everyone, is basically just hanging out in an echo chamber, becoming more and more extreme, and more and more convinced that they alone are right. It also doesn't help that morality has become so attached to differing opinions. Everyone wants their own opinion to be the good and moral one, and for opposing opinions to be morally wrong. So when someone disagrees with someone else, it's not just, "Your opinion is wrong," but also "You are morally reprehensible for having that opinion." (Please note that I'm not referring to things like shipping 13 year old Sansa with a 30 year old. I'm referring to things like simply finding a character sympathetic that someone else hates, or interpreting a character's actions more generously than someone else does.) Everything now is very extreme, very zero sum, and all nuance has been abandoned. I'm sorry this was so long. I know you did not ask for my thoughts. I just wanted to say that I don't think it's just a problem with the Sansa fandom so much as a problem with the fandom overall. Maybe if TWOW is ever published, it will give us something new to talk about and bring back the more nuanced debate.

(In reference to this post)

I appreciate you chiming in, anon! To hear from someone who has seen the evolution of the fandom over the years gives us newer fans some needed perspective.

I’m sure the show contributed to this by eliminating nuance (and ultimately all logic), so when we show fans started engaging we found ourselves making those sweeping statements about characters which were more true than not for the show version but then that tendency filtered into reactions to the book characters and for them it is inaccurate.

It’s always interesting to listen to Martin respond to a “what if” kind of question because you can tell in his mind, if he moves one piece, if X character did or didn’t do that, things would be different. For book discussions, the nuance is essential as the point of it is how the dominoes fall, and in his mind, pulling one really changes things. The contributing factors aren’t excuses for our favs, they’re very real to the author, so eliminating them from discussion is a problem.

I just answered an ask the other day and talked about Cersei. I know she’s a villain, but her suffering still matters to me and I am moved by her love for her children. We can definitely understand characters without endorsing them, love/enjoy them without ignoring their behavior. And, while I do think Martin has firm opinions about some of the issues he’s addressing, I definitely think he has some concerning tendencies that show up in characters and we have to decide “is this the author’s problematic viewpoint, or did he consciously create this for the character?” So, at times, what feels like a defense for something we all find offensive is just trying to distinguish between those two things. And maybe that’s the big problem/what has contributed to the echo chambers. We can’t actually know know, until we have the ending. It’s been a long time, and fans want to know where it’s all going. There’s a reason people threw out their books and swore off ASOIAF if they accepted the show’s ending as Martin’s. Endings matter because they tie everything together/are a final verdict/establish what the author does or doesn’t believe. That can be affirming or disgusting to us.

The preoccupation with the ending means talking about stuff fans have problems with. Dark Dany is an essential part of the ending, and for some fans, that’s a morally abhorrent idea. They think Martin can’t do that without it being wrong, so they transfer that disgust over to anyone who champions it. Lines are going to be drawn around that and all the theories that accommodate it. To me, those have been the biggest factions in the fandom (those who accept it vs those who don’t), and as we get more distance from the show, I assume the book fandom will improve/be able to evaluate those ideas in a more balanced way. I think that’s already happening. As much as I don’t like the “fine, Dany WILL burn KL but it doesn’t mean she isn’t a good person/won’t die a hero!” takes, I do think that means people are now seeing the same foreshadowing, and therefore, given a little more time, will be able to have a more rational discussion of it instead of assuming if you believe it you hate her. I think that’s progress, and the ending of the show (I’m someone who doesn’t like but accepts it) has made me rethink a lot of my own conclusions about what Martin was saying. So, even though I have created and enjoy my own little echo chamber, I’m certainly aware that not everything I think is correct, or that I have an entirely accurate grasp of Martin. That’s always a good thing to remind ourselves of so we don’t become too unbearable. Here’s hoping we get that next book, anon! And thank you for the message.