#and less with the characters on BtVS

[liam-summers]

You know, as a child/teen, I always had a preference for AtS over BtVS, but rewatching AtS as an adult now, I can’t remember why that was. Like, I definitely still do like some parts of the show (shoutout to season 1), but I’m finding that a lot of the shine has worn off and that it’s just not as enjoyable as it used to be. I used to really love all the characters, much more than the characters on Buffy, but now I find myself not really caring about the majority of them most of the time, and actually feeling more for the BtVS characters. The show is, a lot of the time, really inconsistent with characters, plots, themes, direction, and I’m just finding it hard to be as invested as I once was…

Maybe this is a result of rewatching the show multiple times and becoming more critical about certain things that I always wished were different but never really thought too deeply about. Idk, but tbh I don’t think that I will ever rewatch AtS all the way through again. I think I’ll just rewatch the episodes that I really love.

[greensaplinggrace]

one of the things that bothers me most about late seasons btvs is the lack of continuity in relationships. like main events seem to carry over for the core crew, and the general emotion is there, but sometimes it feels like there should be stronger foundations where there is just sand, and it's incredibly disorienting. this seems to especially happen with spike, where he will have consistently positive and impactful interactions with the main characters in ways that should by all means be changing their impressions of him, and then in the next episode it's like none of that ever happened. that's enemy #1 soulless evil unthinking spike again, even though one scene ago you were playing pool with him and clearly realizing he experienced emotions and would die for you. like ??? where's the emotional follow-through.

[destiel-wings]

watching Angel (the series), I feel like is really interesting, specifically in s3 cause I think in some ways it was good but they did Cordelia SO dirty. I feel like there were some aspects where I was like yeah that was totally written by a man e.g. when Angel gives her a necklace after being away cause of Buffy’s death and she’s like it brings out my boobs 🙄.

I feel like there are some scenes that are kinda ironic considering how Joss treated Charisma like when Cordelia was doing that commercial? Like was that a dig at Joss? But also that’s 90s early 2000s writing as well.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I don't know if you're watching the show for the first time or not, so I won't give you direct spoilers, but what they did to Cordelia gets so much worse in season 4.

There is one storyline specifically that happens that season that we as a fandom collectively pretend never happened.

And I actually like season 4 (i love the way that it's built, the plot twists, the epic tones of the main villain coming, the way that some characters develop and the main theme/metaphor that relates to the big bad of the season), but what they did to Cordelia will always be one of the greatest faults of the show. And now that all the rumors about Joss are out, we know why that happened too. 😔 That's when Charisma was pregnant and Joss threatened to fire her. And he did.

I mean, I can see the casual misogyny you're mentioning in the first three seasons as partly being due to the 90s/early 2000s writing (definitely a factor), and partly as a sad realistic depiction of what real actresses in the business like Cordelia (or generally women everywhere) had to endure at the time, when they couldn't even speak up. And i think there's a distinction to be made here, because there's two types of misogyny (or any other problematic behavior) that can be shown in media.

The scene where Cordelia is posing in a bikini and the photographer is a complete jerk for example is a harsh depiction of what society used to be (and still is), and so, in my opinion deserves to be in the show, because stuff like that is a slap in the face that should outrage us. Shows nowadays are excessively tiptoeing around real life issues. And i don't think it's helping anyone. I think we should be able to see stuff like that in fiction so we can say "this is horrible. It shouldn't happen in real life," and hopefully we can learn from it and get better as a society. In this sense, it's useful misogyny, because it exists to outrage the viewer and sensitize them to the issue. And there's tons of other examples of this in the show (I'm thinking about Lilah's storyline for example).

And then there's the pointless misogyny. Lines like "it brings out my boobs!" or other examples that i can't think of right now that won't really teach you anything if not make you cringe thinking "a woman would never say something like that", or "this is a disservice to the character for no valid reason" (like what they did to Cordy in season 4). That type of misogyny outrages us, but for different reasons, because it's gratuitous and completely unnecessary, and should be rightfully cut out.

Unfortunately the show does both. It is the product of its time, and that needs to be taken into consideration. In the end, I think the good it did outweighs the bad, and it managed to tell stories that are still strong and powerful today because it never shied away from speaking about human weakness and visceral struggles in a way that's raw. And people can relate to that (generally speaking).

And you're right, it is ironic, Joss became a feminist icon for creating Buffy, a show where strong (and yet human, flawed, imperfect) characters always stole the scene (with a few male characters exceptions)-- and then he created Angel. A different show, more adult, darker, with some noir touches, and a male lead. And I think, the vibe being so different and more focused on a male lead like Angel (who represents an anti-hero version of the knight in shining armor, which is, per se, an anti-feminist trope) the slope was slippery and so some misogyny slipped through. I'm not saying that misogyny was inherent to the basis of this show but... it kinda was. One could even say that Angel is the anti-Buffy (literally, one show being about a frisky young female lead who is a hero pledged to rid the world from evil vampires, and the other one being about a brooding 200+ year old male lead that is a former(?) evil vampire always ready to save a damsel in distress). The cool thing though, is the show itself is aware of that, and brings it out at text level (for example with Spike mocking Angel for it, in one of the very first episodes of season 1). So what I'm saying is... it's complicated. It's a show that uses its female characters to cater to its male characters' arcs sometimes. But it's also a show that gives us great female characters. Strong, powerful, intelligent, human, unapologetic. There's the good and the bad.

Back to Joss Whedon, personally, I can see him putting a lot of his own personal struggles into the show. Like, the theme of Angel season 5 is literally about the heroes trying not to get corrupted by the power, and that's kind of what Joss did. Guess he wasn't as good and righteous as most of his characters in the end.

[koriand3r]

Anya - Self Less

[myhyperfixationisiforgot]

Watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer as somebody who kinda grew up in the height of the Teen Wolf era is mostly just a drawn out epiphany about Why Derek Hale Is Like That.

[iateabunchofsmartiesandnowimdumb]

so i think what it is is i don't hate xander, i actually can be pretty fond of him sometimes, but i do hate a lot of things j*ss wh*don did with his character

[deficiencies]

i think buffy is different than other female superheroes before and contemporary to her bc her femininity is something she works at rather than smth thts a given

[lystacre]

Me, in April, reading Spike discourse: Mmmmmh… This feels strangely familiar…

[Music starts in the distance, barely a whisper, slow cellos playing a melancholic tune]

Me, in late May, hearing that Spuffy fans are abuse apologists: I swear, it’s the most intense feeling of Déjà vu, where could it come from?

[The music morphs, accelerates as drums starts creating a martial variation of the first theme]

Me, in early June, as the Dragon Age Fandom awakens from Uthenera and Solas/Solavellan discourse makes its way on tumblr once again: Oooooooooh, right.

[The music swells, and it was a medley of the Lost Elf and Dark Solas themes all along]

[wren-kitchens]

im literally so glad depression did not take my sense of humour away because if it did I would literally just be angel from buffy and I cannot think of a fate worse than that

[alwaysspeakshermind]

Favorite Fictional Ladies Alphabet C is for: Cordelia Chase

In the realm of TV shows aimed at teens, there are Queen (B)ees, and then there are Queen. Fricking. (B)ees. For me (someone who always enjoys a good loudmouthed bish with low levels of tact and absolutely ZERO respect for the meaning of the phrase shut up), the early seasons of Buffy were kind of difficult, because I frequently questioned who was my favorite B-word: Buffy or Cordelia. 

Yeah, Cordelia essentially serves as the reliable antagonist in Buffy’s day-to-day, non-slaying world, and yeah, she’s a pretty, popular, runs-the-school-and-everyone-in-it kind of girl rather than an outsider who instantly commands sympathy, but what of it? An antagonist is, after all, just someone who opposes/causes trouble for the protagonist, and as Cordy herself would point out, being the It™ girl in high school isn’t really all it’s made out to be. 

Besides, let’s be honest here: antagonists are not automatically evil simply because they’re arguing with the protagonist, and while Cordelia may be mean, self-centered, and almost unbelievably shallow at times, she is not stupid and she is rarely wrong. Every group of world-saving heroes needs someone with the backbone to say the rude-but-true thing everyone’s thinking, and Cordelia’s more than happy to be that person.

Why she’s my girl:

Despite her overt vanity, callous treatment of wallflowers like Willow, well-cemented status as human-thorn-in-Buffy’s-side, and inexplicable fondness for sweaters knotted around the neck (no, baby, no!) Cordelia commands my undying respect. Regardless of whatever insane situation she’s in, Cordelia is always and reliably Cordelia, aka Cordy, aka Queen C. Whether she’s addressing humans, vamps, or other monsters, she’s loud, opinionated, and ready with an arsenal of insults that sting all the more because there’s a lot of truth in them. 

But as cutting as she can be, she’s also (arguably) the least hypocritical of all Buffy’s non-evil characters, mostly because she’s just so straightforward about who she is: not the runner-up, but The Queen. Not a sheep, but a trendsetter. Not someone who tells lies to protect egos or fragile self-esteem. (Remember that time Buffy could hear everyone’s thoughts and only Cordy’s exactly matched the words that left her mouth?) 

Her relationship with Buffy and co. is more in the frenemy category than anything else, and she’s just as liable to ridicule/flat-out bully as she is to lend assistance, but she sticks with them (for the most part) despite everything. “Nice” isn’t a part of the deal, and though she’s very clear about that, she’s not the dumb, stone-cold, heartless flake everyone around her tends to think. Yes, her concerns are almost never what people think they ought to be, yes, she exasperates everyone with her skillfully brutal assessments of people and situations, and yes, she never misses the chance to criticize someone’s fashion or lack thereof. But she also gives people rides whenever they need them, staunchly defends those she decides to consider part of her circle, and refuses to accept less than what she knows she deserves. She is a fighter when it comes right down to it, but she’s also a very cool realist—if someone else is willing to do the fighting for her, why should she bother making the effort and ruining her manicure? If a formidable foe challenges just one person to a fight, why should she go along and risk her life? 

No, she’s not kind, yes, she makes comments so cutting they’re probably better described as cruel, but she’s also extremely strong, smart, and layered in a way that’s typically not seen in HBIC TV characters both before and since. And every once in a while, albeit essentially never on purpose, Cordy lets it slip that her bitchy, shallow, valley-girl exterior actually conceals a beating human heart—a pretty big one, at that—and it’s kind of beautiful.

(What—she can’t have layers?)

Favorite quotes: Way, way, WAY! too many to count, but some favorites are:

“It’s like when I go shopping, I have to have the most expensive thing. Not because it’s expensive, but because it costs more.”

“God! WHAT IS YOUR CHILDHOOD TRAUMA?!?”

“People who think their problems are so huge craze me. Like the time I sort of ran over this girl on her bike…it was the most traumatizing event of my life, and she’s trying to make it about her leg! Like my pain meant nothing.”

“You think I’m never lonely because I’m so cute and popular? I can be surrounded by people and be completely alone. It’s not like any of them really know me. I don’t even know if they like me half the time. People just want to be in a popular zone. Sometimes, when I talk, everyone’s so busy agreeing with me they don’t hear a word I say.”

“We’re still all rooting for you on Saturday! I’d be there for you myself if I didn’t have a leg-wax.”

“I just don’t see why everyone’s always picking on Marie Antoinette. I can so relate to her. She worked really hard to look that good, and people just don’t appreciate that kind of effort.”

“‘I aspire to help my fellow man.’ Check. As long as he’s not smelly, dirty, or something gross.”

“You’re sheep. All you ever do is what everyone else does just so you can say you did it first. And here I am, scrambling for your approval, when I’m way cooler that you ‘cause I’m not a sheep. I do what I wanna do, and I wear what I wanna wear. And you know what? I’ll date whoever the hell I wanna date. No matter how lame he is.”

“Tact is just not saying true stuff. I’ll pass.”

[“What about that nutty ‘all men are created equal’ thing?”] “Propaganda spouted out by the ugly and less-deserving.”

"I know what you're up to. You think if you get me mad enough I won't be so scared. And hey, it's working! Where's a damn weapon?"

“I am the surgeon of mean.”

“Oh, God. Is the world ending? I have to research a paper on Bosnia for tomorrow, but if the world's ending, I'm not gonna bother.”

“In fact, I wish all men, except maybe the dumb and the really agreeable kind, disappear off the face of the earth. That would be so cool!”

[“You have no shame.”] “Oh, please. Like shame is something to be proud of?”

“I’m Cordelia Chase, dumbass.”

“I think it, I say it. It’s my way.”

[fiapple]

other early buffy bi-coding includes: both her heart & spirit being initially coded as gay/bisexual (the writers weren’t sure which till tara came into the picture, & according to a semi-recent article, of which label pretty much until willow came out) & were intended as such, as the writers always knew one of them was going to come out.

[gh-0-stcup]

Oh and although I have provided a great number of excessively angry rants during my ATS journey, don't expect it with the pregnancy thing.

I've known of the deep ugliness inherent to Darla's arc for over a decade. There is no rage here, just sadness and resignation.

[llycaons]

the acknowledgment that fiction doesn't play out like reality because fiction is a created world is also fun because it lets the author use the format of an isekai to introduce drama and humor

[sammygender]

i think im officially an ats fan. something just clicked

[violettathepiratequeen]

I have solved the mystery of why Spike feels so off in AtS Season 5. Because I'm rewatching Buffy's cameos in S1 of Angel and she feels the same way, in that she just doesn't feel like Buffy, at all. She's bitchier, whinier, way more self-absorbed, which was kinda the problem with Spike in AtS S5 as well.

And I can't help but wonder if that's because it's how Angel secretly sees them, so that's how they're portrayed on his show. It explains why he's such a dull hunk of wood and Spike is just charisma and sexiness and love and devotion and danger and pain on BtVS. Because that's how Buffy subconsciously sees them. Of course the actions are still the actions, obviously, however they're perceived, but that's not what I'm talking about. I mean that the characters were written and created from the POV of the protagonist, and even the actions we're not fond of just came along because the protagonist expected nothing less of them.

Would have been interesting to have a Spike series and see how he views these two lol. I'm guessing Angel as one of those French aristrocrats in a powdered wig and Buffy as a sword-wielding queen of the fairies.

----

Editing to add that I actually think there is a very clear divide on who belongs on which show. Angel, Cordy, Wesley, Faith, Harmony, Dru, and Darla THRIVED on AtS character-wise, and I actually liked every single one of them so much better on that show than I did on Buffy.

Spike and Buffy belong on the original. I'm a strong believer in crossovers, but only in micro doses, haha, and not destroying the stories that BtVS had been so carefully building.

Andrew can bop around on whatever show he wants, he's good at picking up the flavor of whoever he gets close to, like a mushroom.

[lilatara]

imagine if the BtVS writers had just...let us ever be mad at Riley.

For writers who so clearly understood an audience's desire to root for an underdog, they never seemed to understand that they needed to give us an outlet for our frustration with Riley in order to "forgive" him.

Of all the worst problems with how Riley is written as a character, these are two moments in As You Were that always boil it down for me.

After having a year to reflect on everything that DIDN'T work in Into the Woods, apparently the writers' takeaway was that BUFFY needed to apologize. Chasing a helicopter wasn't QUITE humbling enough, I guess. She needs to say sorry to the guy who left her and got married within a year...because clearly SHE was the only one not fully committed to their relationship. Sure.

He, otoh? Has nothing to apologize for.

Now, bear in mind, at this point, we in the audience have watched Buffy lose her mom, sacrifice her own life, struggle through a legit resurrection, but the writers still want us to care that it hurt Riley's feelings that Buffy cried more over Angel than him.

AYW should've been Riley's redemption. He should've shown up apologetic, sheepish, and frankly, if we were meant to get on his side, a little loser-ish. But the writers seemed incapable of getting that you can't make us like a character by just repeatedly telling us he's faultless. They already let him leave once, with Xander lecturing Buffy and us that we had failed to appreciate the best guy we were ever going to have a shot with. But no one was buying. So how to drive it home this time? Have him show up literally "intense, fit, and more handsome than ever", now with new scar! Just like that other guy we know you're into!

Buffy won't just run after him this time. She'll swoon, she'll pine, she'll be filled with jealousy. She'll be a loser in a bad outfit. She'll smell. She'll be less effective and knowledgeable than the super couple. She'll be caught in a humiliating, intimate situation. And how shocking that this somehow still did not make Riley a fan favorite. Who ever could've predicted? Other than everyone who had already seen it not work in ITW, that is.