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#and tbh thats  exactly what i needed
pianostarinwonderland · 2 months
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Now it's likely we will enter everyone's dream what do you think azul dream would be?
rubs hands Ohhhh anon, you're in luck because I have so many thoughts.
Since I also have ideas for the tweels, I'll take this time to write what I think all the Octavinelle dreams will be like. Most of these are my own thoughts, but some ideas are from friends. And because I love the trio so much, I'll also write my own ideas of what would possibly get them to wake up and such.
General notes before listing the individual dreams:
May be an obvious point, but I think all 3 of them will have each other in their dreams. Octa trio are very close, and I don't think they can imagine not having each other in their lives. It also matches how their initial dorm card art have each other + how all three of their stories are tied together.
I think that Jade is going to be the Octavinelle dream segment's SSR because of the twins, Kalim and co. will likely have an easier time waking Floyd up. Jade may need some prodding from someone more familiar with him.
However, I do acknowledge the argument made by my friend that it is possible for Floyd to be the SSR as he's the rightmost one in the order you find at the lessons (if you notice, the order goes Ortho > Lilia > Rook > Kalim (though Kalim is an exception) with Sebek in between Lilia and Rook, and they're the rightmost ones in their dorm order seen in lessons. Floyd is the rightmost one in the Octavinelle order). And I wouldn't be surprised if TWST decides to pull that out. But admittedly, I don't know what exactly would make Floyd's dream deep enough that he needs to be woken up by someone more familiar, so I write the dreams with the assumption that Jade will be the SSR.
Though not necessarily going to be important in the following ramble, I have a feeling that they will release Coral Sea's hometown event to be able to use certain assets (i.e. backgrounds, possible official reveal of Azul's merform) in book 7, just like Vil's hometown event was used for the Pomefiore dream segment.
As a disclaimer, I don't have full translations of the last two updates so I may not have the most accurate ideas for how the Octa dream segment can turn out because there are patterns they're following here. Many of these are still brainrot induced (even though I think I make good logic wheezes).
Ok, with all that said, here are my thoughts for the Octa trio's dreams :>>
Floyd Leech: Living underwater with Jade and Azul
It's not a secret that Floyd is at his happiest when he's in his merform. Among the trio, he's the one who transforms the most often into his merform. Some incidents include the time that he transformed during swimming class according to Ruggie (Book 3) and Vargas Camp where he transformed to get fish. Floyd is also the one who tells the most stories of his time under the sea with Jade and Azul. We know about their middle school band because of him (Robe Kalim vignette); we know about Azul's actual size in his octopus form because of him (Beans 2 main story); we know about the music contests they used to join because of him (Portfest Floyd vignette).
So it makes sense that his dream would be in the sea, where he's in his merform. It's also going to be pretty simplistic, depicting a happy life underwater.
TWST tends to be very comedic, especially with the first dream. So my friend suggested it would be fun if there were literal fish versions of the cast in his dream 😂 so we could have live2D assets of a literal goldfish Riddle, crab Ace, sea snake Jamil, etc.
Jade and Azul of course would be in merform along with him. Maybe they might be playing in their middle school band: Floyd on drums, Jade on bass, and Azul on piano (and maybe their audience is composed of the NRC cast as fish).
In this dream, maybe Floyd has no memory of ever being on land with Jade and Azul. So that may be what the others will use to wake him up.
Jamil would probably remind Floyd of basketball club days + dancing, and Ortho would probably remind him of his love for shoes. These could be pretty reasonable as the permanent card vignettes (so SR Robe/Lab, R Uni/PE, SSR Dorm) seem to be compliant with the canon of the main story. Grim would probably remind him as well of Book 3's events and how he'd do fun shit with Azul and Jade at the Mostro Lounge. They would probably remind him as well that Jade and Azul love what they do on land.
I don't know where to insert this, but it's very likely that Azul in this dream does not hate his merform. Floyd talks highly of his merform (whether it looks yummy or very strong), so it's possible that he wishes that Azul loves himself just a little bit more (I really want to say it is hinted at, but at the moment, I have no idea if that's correct, let alone say where it is hinted at, so I won't say it like it's canon). And by extension, this can be Floyd's way of sharing that maybe Azul wouldn't have OB'd if he was more accepting of himself.
Jade Leech: If Azul never overblotted
Jade's dream would take a similar path to Rook's dream, in which the premise for the latter is that Vil never overblotted because he's not in conflict with Neige. And for Rook, that's okay, he just wants Vil to be happy, even if he looks on from afar. Except that for Jade, he wants to be the reason that Azul didn't have to overblot.
See, it's very subtle, but Jade is probably upset or even traumatized from Azul's overblot. While he never shows this (this motherfucker istg) the one small bit of evidence of this is in Book 4. Jamil's hypnotizing everyone, and Kalim, Azul, and the rest are frantic as they don't know what to do. But as Jamil is about to overblot, Jade tells him to stop, or else he will overblot. And that's a very interesting thing: why is it Jade who's the one telling Jamil that he'll overblot at the rate he was going? Why not Azul, who's both fascinated with Jamil and the one who underwent overblot? Or even Grim and Yuu who have 3 experiences of overblots by that time? Of course, that's not necessarily a guaranteed indication that Jade is upset from Azul's overblot, as in general, overblot is very dangerous and could kill a life. Jade may have been saying this to prevent Jamil from entering a life-or-death situation. However, I still find it intriguing that it's Jade who's warning Jamil, especially when another instance of another character trying to stop an OB was Kalim, who followed Vil since he was reminded of Jamil's own OB (and we know Jamil and Kalim have been together since forever).
There's two ways that this can go: either (1) Jade's dream follows like Rook's, or (2) it goes the opposite of Rook's.
In (1), Jade (and consequently, Floyd) would not be friends with Azul, and Azul would continue on as he is, only a lot more independent.
(1) stems from the fact that the plan Yuu hatched to destroy Azul's contracts was hinged on separating the twins from Azul. Jade might have realized this, either in Book 3 or off screen post Book 3. And in a similar fashion to Rook, he might blame himself a little bit for Azul not being able to get the contracts off of Leona on his own due to the fact that he and Floyd are always with him. So in his mind, he thinks he might be dragging Azul's potential down, and he knows how much Azul wants to become the best version of himself. So maybe he looks on from afar as well. Maybe he's still an Octavinelle student, but not the vice leader.
(2) also stems from that same fact, but it also has an additional element: In Book 3, Jade asked Azul if they should do anything about Leona, since it was unexpected for Yuu to stay in Savanaclaw. Azul replied that he probably won't act on anything, so he says not to disturb him. What if Jade might have been hooked onto this? That maybe he should have acted more upon his suspicions? That maybe he should have been more attentive when spying on Yuu and co to find out when they hatched this plan? So maybe in dream (2), he had a countermeasure or he just knew when to nudge Floyd to go back to the dorm before Leona destroyed the contracts. Then once that was dealt with, they deal with the photo and bam, Azul wins and they get the Ramshackle branch.
Both (1) and (2) are connected by Jade's wish in the Dances and Wishes event, where he expresses that his wish is for Azul's and Floyd's wishes to come true. In a sense, (1) fits this a bit better than (2). There's also the idea that moray eels have a cowardly nature, according to Floyd. (1) could be an expression of said nature within Jade.
But if you ask me, I think (2) is a bit more in line with Jade. Firstly because I doubt he can imagine not being close to Azul, secondly because I think in his ideal world, I think he'd wish he had more control over what happened (and Jade has a thing for control).
Thirdly, it matches in terms of how his dorm card and Rook's dorm card are both same and different. The gameplay of TWST tends to be intermingled with the story and characters at times. Dorm Jade and Rook both have first spells where they boost their ATK stat for 3 turns, with fire as their duo element. The differences between them are (a) card typing (Rook Attack vs. Jade Defense) and (b) M1/M3 elements (Flora/Water Rook vs. Water/Flora for Jade). This parallel can be reflected in their dreams vs. the reality of their situations. Rook dreamt of never being involved with Vil, but in real life he was in time to intervene and save Neige. Meanwhile, Jade would dream of being on time to stop Leona, while in real life, he was too late and only in time to kick Azul's ass out of his overblot.
And fourth, this is where you may wonder: Isn't Azul's second dream going to be the Book 3 AU, based on the patterns with Idia, Vil, and Jamil? To which I answer: yes! Definitely! But here's where I'm going to point out something: Jade and Azul not only have similar ish mindsets but also have the same paintings in their initial Platinum card art, just with flipped positions. I like to think that this is reflective of their dreams, where both of them wish to change the same events of Book 3, except that they'd go about it differently.
Jade would definitely be woken up by Floyd, who would remind him that what happened has already happened. (On this note, I wonder if we'll get to see one of their vicious sibling fights so Jade can wake up, but I'm just dreaming at this point)
By virtue of him being the SSR, we gotta think of what's the scenario that would make Jade cry! Him having to fight the fake Azul and Floyd might break him. Yeah, he's fought Floyd and all, probably dueled with Azul too, but it could be different when he has to be 100% serious about it. Either that or, there might be some part of him that hates the fact that it was a dream. And Floyd would have to snap him out of it, saying that everything is okay.
Azul Ashengrotto: Ultimate business owner + Book 3 AU
The first dream we enter, in typical Azul fashion, we're likely going to see him owning a whole chain of Mostro Lounge restaurants! And maybe not only that: he's probably running a hotel or two, he's got a delivery service going, he probably has a monopoly running while we're at it. Basically, it's all the stuff that he lists down in Book 6 before he sleeps on Riddle's shoulder.
His businesses expand over both land and sea. Since Azul prefers being on land, we may see him on land first before diving to the sea to check on business there. And that's where the first confrontation happens.
I think Azul would feel practically invincible by this point! And by invincible, he not only has everything he wants, but there's not a trace of his past to be discovered, so people think he's always been this intelligent and strong. So when he's confronted by Jade and Floyd, who share memories of his past (his shared past with them, from middle school to NRC), that's the first instance of Azul slowly starting to wake up and him panicking about his perfect world being fake. And it almost works until the dream versions of Jade and Floyd come in and remind Azul of the kind of invincible person he is.
Then they descend to the second dream, which is the Book 3 AU where Azul got his contracts from Leona and probably beat his ass. Except that the difference between this and Jade's dream is that Azul does this all by himself. When dream Jade and Floyd get back to him with the photo, they're praising him, all like, "Good job Azul! You're so strong and powerful! I'm glad I get to hang out with someone as awesome as you are!"
But the real Jade and Floyd would try to stop him from destroying the photo and tell him that it's a reminder of who he was, and how much he's grown. And if Azul succeeds in destroying that photo, Jade and Floyd would pull out the photos that they carry with them (think the album from the opening). They want him to accept the person that he was, and realize the person he is now is someone who's grown stronger. He has become better.
On how his dream would collapse, this is tricky. I would want that Azul destroys his contracts (thereby breaking the deal he made with Yuu, which would entail that his happy end has been broken), but him not destroying the photo would also cause the dream to collapse since the way to his happy end involves removing all ties to his past, namely the photos. He could do both. However, the trend so far is that foreign influence affecting the happy ending is what would break the dream. If anything, if Jade and Floyd do have their own copies of Azul's past photos, that means that the presence of those indicates that Azul's ties to his past are not broken at all, and therefore they would break the dream.
Then as per pattern, the others leave while Azul sinks deeper to try and wake himself up. He meets his OB self, who's steeped in his insecurities and is very unaccepting of his past. And this is where Azul accepts those insecurities and accepts his past but will continue to move forward with his life and grow to be a person he can be proud of, and fight his OB self. Then he faces his first dream and dream Jade and Floyd, and then he wakes up eventually.
#twisted wonderland#twst#twst jp#azul ashengrotto#jade leech#floyd leech#twst theory#tldr they need each other fr#if you ask me i absolutely think jade and floyd would exhibit their same difference schtick#in which they have their individual ways of expressing smth but at their core they have similar desires/goals/feelings#like i think floyd might partially blame himself too for azuls ob or if not blame himself he at least wished he never had to see it happen#its just that to him if azul was more accepting of himself like how floyd accepts him then azul wouldnt have been hurt enough to undergo it#ofc it needs to be said too that jade and floyd want each other to be happy#idk how Exactly they'd go about that but im sure for jade he wants floyd to be able to do what he wants#and floyd wants that he and jade are happy tgt under the sea#tho i do admit my ideas for jade's dream are more azul focused than floyd focused esp (2)#(1) would defs be able to encompass floyd's wishes more alongside azul's#i still want the tweels to brawl after seeing kalim and jamil throw down in the latest update lmao#like how vicious would they get and would they actually fight over how they shouldve handled a matter deeply involving someone they care fo#i demand to see more fists thrown tbh for a school thats built up to throw hands we dont get enough full blown fist fights#edit 1: its jamil who accompanies them not kalim#edit 2: added in the photos in azuls part bc my friend talked about it and i COMPLETELY FORGOT HOW IMPT THE PHOTOS ARE TO AZULS STORY
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gifti3 · 1 year
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ceo au but its just mc surviving working as lucifer's assistant and asmo keeps flirting with them everytime he visits
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dreamteamemojis · 2 months
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#controversial slightly radical political take incoming#im so sorry but i cant stand the 'vote blue no matter who' crowd like yall are the reason why we are in this mess in the first place#pushing unpopular centrist genocide supporting candidates and then acting shocked that they lose and blaming liberals not voting-#when republicans would NEVER push a candidate as far left as biden and hillary are right and thats why they keep winning#and acting like committing genocide being a red line to not vote for someone is a bad thing be so fucking serious#they would vote for someone who supported the holocaust in the 40s as long as they called themselves a democrat while doing it#the fucking tactic of vote for our guy because the other guy is ~worse~ instead of giving people something to actually care about#ISNT WORKING OUT SO WELL HUH who would have thought#genuinely that is why bernie made it so far in 2016. because he made people hope that things could even start to change.#and unfortunately trump also did that for his base. and even more unfortunately. the dnc saw that and stomped it out. and then THEY lost.#fear mongering fascism to people watching protesters against genocide getting beaten by cops under the administration youre pushing#isn't exactly that convincing. sorry.#like yeah. we need the majority in the house and senate for sure. but president wise? you cant convince me there is a 'less' evil option#like how dare you even insinuate that after all that has been done in these past nine months tbh#i think its the fucking sugar coating that really pisses me off more than anything#like. you do not have to make biden out to be a good man in any way just to make trump seem like a bad one. thats already established.#youre voting for evil. either way. just accept it. there is no 'less'. trying to absolve yourself from that is what pisses me off.#and 'voting blue no matter who' is what got us all here in the first place. convincing ourselves that here is a less evil in every situatio#sorry. im done now. i just hate seeing all those guilt tripping 'well now you HAVE to vote' posts on my timeline.#politics
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bitchfitch · 1 year
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i just got done with my third chiro appointment, and like. I've noticed a significant improvement in terms of how much pain I'm in but I'm also noticing i can't like. stay sitting up. I can sit, which isn't always the case, but the muscles in my back are so loosey goosey/ not responding/ spasming that I keep curling forward until my head is almost pressed to the bed in front of me while I'm sitting cross legged. Don't know what that's about but it's affecting productivity something awful.
#like#i have shockingly good muscle tone considering how little i can move so this isnt a strength issue.#Ish. Like. the thing with eds is that if you have it severe enough your muscles have to pick up the slack for your ligaments#which results in you building way more muscle than you would expect#I cant lift more than 25lbs in like a bag or something without dislocating my elbows/shoulders#but i can bench 180~ and barbell squat my own weight#its just a matter of not pulling on anything#Tbh i think this is just the level of Nonsense that happens when my muscles arnt constantly tense.#my ligament structure isnt sturdy enough to work without that extra reinforcement#Anyways ive needed a back brace since i was 12 but insurance wont pay for it and like fuck am i able to shell out the 20k myself.#Ive looked into corsets but my proportions are so weird that id need a custom pattern#which is Pricey to get from a reputable company. like 2-3k which is better than 20. but still out of reach.#Im not confident enough in my drafting ability to make one myself.#seeing ms.banner. a real and skilled seamstress who knows what shes doing. lay herself out with a bad corset pattern is kinda#a good sign that maybe i an idiot whos sewing experience is stuffed animals and quilts. should not fuck around with my spinal health#I think id be more comfortable doing it myself if there were more mens corset patterns and more examples of how non#lingerie mens corsets are like. meant to work#i dont exactly need bust support. and most women's corsets dont have the shoulder support mens do. and thats like.#the area im most scared about fucking up bc its already a nightmare#tbh when i get the sg shop open im putting all the profits into a savings account and just working hard to get the budget to pay#for a proper corset.
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lumpsbumpsandwhumps · 11 months
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fnaf movie..........
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diah-the-demon · 1 year
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trying to think what i should do for halloween
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irxnmaiden · 2 years
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tinyhawks · 2 years
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i need more fanart of dabi on hawks' lap. i need dabi to be clingy and shameless
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the-kipsabian · 1 year
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welp that solves at least what i wanna do with my day today hmm
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dcggone · 1 month
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i think ill taking an office position at this philosophy club i joined at school. i say that knowing the workload ive already taken on is daunting and a wee bit scary
#im very excited to hang with the philosophy students like whatchall got going on...#i gotta admit. i love every physics student ive met so far. even the annoying ones have so much character and are a blast#i feel their passions and am colored by theirs souls#the math majors are soulless and boring you can tell some of them are business minors/majors too like milquetoast got nthg#going on#the engineers...not exactly the same but an inbetween#philosophy majors at the very least?? i hope itll be a mentally stimulating environment.#like being able to just have free flowing discussions could be real nice. i think i have a lot of thoughts rn#on the state of the world. on family. on the self. on love and peace and on other people being hell.#my favorite person ive met at school. even though i kinda cant stand him lol#my favorite person ive met is a physics major philosophy minor. and i mean we'd sit and talk for hooours about every lil thing#these long drawn out discussions on politics life love art. whether people do or dont have free will. (we do!) etc.#i just need a space to talk. to be mentally stimulated and feel like im mentally stimulating others yknow.#whenever i try to talk to people about whats on my mind they literally couldnt care less but tbh most of my family is made up of people#pleasers.#we were taught from a very young age not to think critically and my whole immediate family are very dimwitted and dont challenge the world.#or the status quo. they dont think about anything thats hard to think about :(#and like most of the US is like that. which is why this country is so ugly and wilted. its dying.#i just want to convince myself that there are people out there that still have a whimsy and fascination about the world#essentially...philosophy club save me. please save me philosophy club
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sugardoodle · 1 month
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Me, one field school and capstone away from completing my bachelor's of studio art and minor in archaeology, after 8 years of part time college: hey what if I didn't actually want to be an artist and I immediately pivot from this into a bachelor's of zoology so I can go to grad school for paleozoology/paleobiology? Haha wouldn't that be wild. Right guys
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waywardsalt · 2 months
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so um. very glad that throughout all this time i never had the end poem spoiled to me
#i uh. i thought that beating the game would feel cheap bc i cheated and got tired of it and sped to the end#but uh. no. that. poem. it makes it all worth it. kinda feels like a culmination of all my time playing minecraft yknow#not gonna stop now ofc i have some worlds i might mess around in but. i did beat the game#i did beat minecraft finally. i did fight the dragon in easy mode i decided to allow it be some kinda fight#its whatever tbh. but the end poem is. uhm. god#yeah adding minecraft to the list of things (media ig?) that got me close to crying#shame i struggle to cry in general but fucking god man. thats a good end poem#yknow id been wondering abt that minecraft song (alpha) and wondering just what it’d be used for in game#finally found out. holy shit. there was smth i wanted to say hang on#its wrong to say exactly that i never had it spoiled to me- more that i didnt actually know what it was#zeemyth used parts of it in his farlands vid and i’d worried that he’d used most of it#but no. no no no i have never ever seen the full thing before#ooooooh boy. its a good end poem for dismissing any guilt i wouldve felt for cheating#salty talks#minecraft#i still. have mixed feelings abt the game. i still need to find out a way that i like playing it#i play on hypixel every so often. i think i enjoy that? its been a bit i do like it with friends#i remember running a warrior rp house in there it got briefly popular (idk ~20 ppl at one point i think it was years ago)#its moon landing day but also salty finally beats minecraft day#didnt even beat it on my computer (same acct tho) bc it does not run well on my computer a lot of the time#oh fuck no these credits are like an hour long? how do i skip this shit i got what i came here for
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transmandrake · 3 months
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Out of curiosity if any of my 5 active followers or stray tumblr people have played it and liked it:
What is the appeal of Outer Wilds? I played it a few days ago and didnt even feel like finishing it. It was, sort of hyped up for years as the 'go into it blind' game but honestly more than anything after playing it I wish I had had some more info on it instead of throwing myself at it 100's of times until i realised I'd wasted a ton of cycles doing stuff that got me nowhere.
The puzzles are... not bad, but frustrating, unintuitive, and in at least 2 situations my solution I thought would work wa sboth more interesting and fit the theme better (fuck. That. Moon.)
The lore buildup is quite nice, but, and maybe I'm too deep in spec bio and such hobbies, but felt underwhelming ultimately, like it was showing rather than telling.
The characters are extremely boring. Probably my favourite part of the game for the first 5 hours was the ambiguous fate of one character, and, spoiler i guess, (ign lists this as the first thing to do in the game but i happened to fuck it up on my first try and didnt solve the puzzle even though i was doing it right and assumed i had to come back later with the right solution)
But
Theyre fine. Theyre just... another npc. Who says the same stuff as the others about how to solve a puzzle (that id already figured out).
Immediately the mystery and feeling of hearing the sing of your presumed dead friends out in space joining in with your music, was gone. It was just quantum space time stuff. Ah. Okay.
People keep billing this as something you need to go in blind for, and I get it, but I'm realising a big part of that is because the game doesnt have much to offer if you already know whats going on. But it also doesnt give you enough focus to not waste 3 hours solving a completely optional sequence of puzzles because every piece of 'lore' is equally important unless you know whats going on already.
I really wanted to like it! I tried really hard to give it more time to 'get good' because I usually find repeating games like this to be hard to enjoy. Honestly I really liked the repeating gameplay, and general hook, but in practice it felt like it was milking my time. The actual game mechanics were really fun until I wanted to achieve anything, in which going from place to place became a chore and the time element became standing around waiting for another attempt at a puzzle rather than a changing dynamic world.
So basically I just really want to know what the appeal of it was for people. Did I 'miss the point'? Or is it a thing where it was new and fresh on release but now its become outclassed by newer tastes and refinement, and seems shallow in comparison?
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asw-studios · 5 months
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Cello Frog | Puzzle Block Print | October 2021
By @asw-studios
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bastardlybonkers · 5 months
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i feel like not enough ppl are factoring in the cultural clash between laios and shuro and the many micro agressions shuro faced while being in their group. literally the name 'shuro' in itself is one
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his name is toshiro 😭 lets also not forget that he has his own communication issues, in the opposite way that laios does- thats literally a factor in their argument, that his envy for laios's ability to express himself sincerely manifested as part of his distaste for him.
ig all this to say like, was their fight heart wrenching, especially when reading laios as autistic? absolutely. anybody whos ever been in laios's position knows how much it hurts to realize someone you thought was your friend doesnt actually like having you around, especially when they didnt tell you and you had no way of knowing due to not understanding their cues. but im begging yall to step back and see the nuance of this situation cause im gonna be real a lot of you are kinda just brushing over it acting like everything is toshiros fault and that hes a terrible person when in reality hes an average guy who really, really clashed with laios and it led to a very long misunderstanding due to their supremely opposite methods of communication. even laios and toshiro, after letting everything out in their fight, were able to come to an understanding and start a foundation for an actual friendship built on better communication
ok yknow what Edit: i shouldve made it even more explicit at the end of this post, i hadnt thought i would need to since i started the post with this, but i think a few too many people are missing my point so i just wanna clarify. i shouldnt have said 'really clashed' and left it at that because yeah they did, but it wasnt just their opposite methods of communication, it is also very much that toshiro was experiencing microaggressions via laios. it may have been unintentional on laios's part, but it still happened and wore him down, made it harder for him to communicate on top of both the more subtle social cues that he was raised with and his own communication difficulties. i also want to say that the fandom reaction to toshiro and the complete ignorance of this point is also racist tbh or at the very least ignorant. i understand that the anime did not cover this panel, and neither did the manga, as this was an omake, but im gonna be real with you guys. there are enough context clues within the story to clue you into this. if you didnt pick up on it thats ok, but i think this is a good lesson in picking up subtext in the stories that youre watching and/or reading. kui shouldnt have to explicitly say 'by the way laios was racist to toshiro' for this point to be understood, and at the very least, when the author portrays a character in a sympathetic light (as kui clearly does) it should make you question Why they are doing so and what makes them sympathetic, rather than youre immediate and only reaction to be 'well i hated what this guy did/said so i hate them and they suck'. idk exactly how to finish this, just. idk. question your biases and gut reactions to things you see in media and stories, and think about whether or not theres subtext that youre missing.
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motherforthefamicom · 7 months
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played more mother 1 got thru duncans factory first try >=]
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