#and that's when this interaction happens in the novel (and CQL)

[daily-suyao]

[rainbowsky]

Hi rainbowsky! I'm a new-ish (autumn 2023) Yizhan fan - it's been so much fun to explore and read everything available, your blog included! I really enjoy your opinions and insights. I have a question and a request. Question: When CQL first started airing, what were people saying about the relationship between WWX and LZ in the show, and about the actors playing them? Did the CP start right away? Request: Then later on, when the BTS started appearing (when was that - after the show finished airing, right?), what were people saying about the real interactions between the two actors? Were people shocked? Amazed? Even more curious? I can imagine social media was on fire! But I'd like to hear from someone who "lived" through it in real time. Please give me a description of what it was like - especially what your thoughts and feeling were as you saw it happening. I wish I could have been there! Thank you!

Hi Blbrave! Thanks so much, I'm glad you're enjoying my blog!

This is all a very, very long time ago, but I'll do my best to share what I can remember.

Actually, the CP started before the show began airing. The supertopics were opened during filming in 2018. I think this was inevitable, given that the series is based on a BL story. Of course fans of the novel will go into all of this with an eye toward the two characters and, by extension, GG and DD.

Similarly, as the show was airing of course there were a large number of viewers who knew it was a BL and viewed it as a BL at that time, even though it was being billed as a martial brotherhood series. There was a lot of analysis from fans trying to spot various ways that the production team managed to get around censorship and signal the queer romance between WWX and LWJ.

Others have done far better, more comprehensive analysis of all that than I could ever do, but it's so long ago I don't know where those posts might have gone. Some of this was discussed in my post about queerbaiting, so you can look there for more info.

As I said in that post, one of their smartest ways of highlighting the queer relationship was to downplay romance between the straight characters. We never see a straight couple doing something that we don’t also see LWJ and WWX doing. Yanli's wedding happens off camera, yet we see LWJ and WWX do their bows on camera. There’s never a kiss or any kind of PDA between straight characters, yet we see LWJ and WWX in each other’s arms throughout the series.

We got a gay kiss:

We got gay sex:

There was also the headband repeatedly being described as the domain of only family and spouses, and the various ways they connected it with WWX. WWX grabbing it when he was possessing the paperman, and also at one point being tied to LWJ by the wrist with the headband - all of this signalling that WWX was a spousal figure for LWJ.

There was the drunk scene with LWJ giving WWX chickens (a wedding tradition in China).

And many more examples I won't get into.

There were many of those types of things in the series, and they were discussed enthusiastically at the time. However, I don't think there were many bystanders who made those connections. It was primarily fans of the books/show (i.e. those who appreciated it as a BL story and not as a bromance/friendship story) who saw and discussed those hints.

I know the idea that anyone could be so oblivious to the gay subtext throughout the story that they miss the queerness entirely is hard to get one's head around, but straight viewers usually just see WWX and LWJ as best friends and sworn martial brothers. The show could never have been made or aired if that wasn't the case.

In fact, newer fans might not be aware that there was a lot of controversy during filming because of leaked early attempts to create a straight romance between Wei Wuxian and Wen Qing. Some relationship-building scenes between them were filmed, and at one point in the BTS GG is heard complaining about the straight romance and saying that all those scenes should be deleted.

In the production team's defense, there was doubt at the time about whether the show could air given its source material as a BL novel. They likely had investors and backers pressuring them to make sure that the story was unambiguously straight.

Fans of the novel made a massive uproar about it, threatening to boycott the series. The backlash was so extreme that it became a bigger threat to the success of the show, and the straight romance was killed. We all owe a lot to those agitators! 😅

The BTS

The BTS clips were first discussed in an Untamed press conference (that section of the interview starts at around 36:30). The producer said that in the future some of the behind-the-scenes moments would be shared. GG and DD exchanged a glance and looked extremely uncomfortable with it.

A lot of turtles find that clip funny, and laugh about what GG and DD might 'have to hide', but I have never understood how fans can find GG and DD's discomfort funny.

It might surprise some newer turtles to hear that there were moments where GG and DD appeared to be uncomfortable with the BTS, but there were.

Another moment happened in an interview where GG and DD were asked to explain a BTS scene of the two of them in the boat, where GG is lying in DD's lap. DD turns to the interviewer with a shocked and displeased look on his face and says, "They released this?"

There were other moments as well, but I haven't kept a comprehensive record of all that. This happened long before I clued in on how quickly clips can disappear in this fandom.

I believe that it is totally normal to have mixed feelings about the BTS, and I believe GG and DD are no exception to that. No doubt they enjoy some of the clips and feel uncomfortable about some of them, just like many turtles (myself included).

There were official BTS clips released during promo, but the unofficial BTS clips didn't come until later. I talked in more detail about the unofficial BTS and how they came to be released here.

The unofficial clips began being released by fansites in the fall of 2020. It would be hard to overstate how different the atmosphere around them was to what it is now. Now it's quite common to find BTS clips all over the place, both in C-social media and on international sites like YouTube and Instagram.

However, back in 2020 they were extremely hard to get ahold of, and sharing them outside of where they were initially released was strictly forbidden and frowned upon by fans. In fact, if you dig back through my 2020 posts I'm sure you'll find many posts where I admonish people not to share the BTS clips, and where I bitch about people sharing them without authorization. I also answered a lot of asks about these issues at the time (just one example).

Times have changed a lot, and now everyone is sharing them all very freely without any concerns.

The situation was a lot different back then:

GG and DD had gained a tremendous amount of popularity from the show, but their reputations and careers were not yet fully established and secure.

227 was still an active concern that was still making news and still impacting GG's life directly. He had not yet recovered from any of it and was still mostly lying low. He was constantly being attacked and antis were constantly out to get him.

The Untamed was still fresh and current, and being discussed regularly in the media. Because filming was still fairly recent, what happened during filming would still run the risk of impacting GG and DD's lives and careers.

Fans were coming under very close scrutiny because of 227 and other fandom-related scandals. The government was starting to crack down heavily on fandom culture.

This was all uncharted territory. No one knew how the BTS might be received, or how it might impact GG and DD. Fans were very freaked out about the possibility of anything compromising getting leaked and harming the boys.

No doubt fansites were also worried about how fans might respond to some of the releases, and wanted to ensure they didn't upset or anger fans, or stir up more excitement than could be safely contained within the fandom.

All of this contributed to a climate of extreme caution and secrecy around the release of BTS clips.

We never knew when one might be released, and when they were released they were typically only put online for a few minutes, then deleted. This was all done in an effort to limit the exposure of these clips primarily to turtles who have GGDD's best interests in mind.

The clips were heavily watermarked and overlaid with visual and audio curses that 'reuploaders must die!' ('banyun biss', which I'm sure most of you have encountered in some of the clips you've seen).

Early clips were heavily watermarked.

Those who missed out were out of luck. It was extremely socially unacceptable to re-share clips once they'd been deleted. Those who missed out would have to rely on recaps and transcripts from those who had seen the clips. Fans took to staying up all hours watching and waiting for a release.

Back in those days people tried to save every clip they could, hoarding them greedily. Turtles' phones were filling up with large video files. It's funny to think about now, because the clips are everywhere and so easy to find these days, but back then it was a whole Thing.

The initial releases were sporadic and quite tame as fansites dipped their toes in the water of how all this would be received. Gradually over time clips became more frequent and stayed up longer, and some of the more salacious stuff began being released. Those clips were often accompanied by hilarious intro images.

(For those who don't get it, it's the PornHub logo).

Of course all of the clips were heavily discussed as they came out, and a clearer picture of GG and DD's relationship and of their experience of filming began to take shape over time. Some of the fake rumors (such as the 49 fake candies and the CPN that GG designed a racing suit for DD) were gradually proved to be true as these clips were released. However, that was mostly confined to fandom circles.

There were occasionally times when these clips or their content would cross over into the mainstream and start trending on Weibo. In many of those cases, the hotsearches would be bought and pushed by antis of GG and DD who want to see them cancelled. At those times turtles would jump into action to wash those topics and replace them with mundane, unrelated content.

There were fan theories and fake rumors about GG and DD's reaction to the clips. Sometimes when new clips were released GG and DD would be seen online and turtles assumed they were watching them. Of course, considering the clips featured them, it's highly likely that they did eagerly await releases just like the rest of us.

I suspect that it was likely a mixed bag for them. Some clips might have really stressed them out either upon initial release or after reactions began to emerge, while others likely made them laugh and feel nostalgic about filming.

A large percentage of BXG light banners and slogans came directly out of the BTS, some of which you can see GG and DD discussing in LRLG rumors.

Dumplings, rice noodles, 3+2 biscuits (cr @knivescharade in this post), discussed in this LRLG rumor.

There were definitely a few scandals and close calls that came out of the unofficial BTS, and solos and antis frequently tried to use them against GG and DD and tried to spin negative narratives about their relationship using disingenuous takes and edits of them (they still do to this day).

For example, the clip where GG tells DD that he prefers a natural look to idol makeup was used against GG at the time, and antis tried to make it seem like GG was homophobic and that GG was against men wearing makeup. Some of the clips where they were playfighting or bickering were used to try to create a narrative that they hated each other. That kind of thing.

BTS and fan service

One of the most common questions I've gotten about the BTS - and I still often get this question - is, "Aren't the BTS just acted out/scripted as fan service to promote the show?"

There are a few reasons people have this question in their minds.

Solos #1 narrative about GGDD is that their CP was just for the show and the BTS was all fan service, and nothing about their relationship is real. They push this claim very aggressively on social media anytime GGDD or The Untamed is discussed, and new fans will almost always encounter those claims in this way.

CP fan service is a normal part of how dramas are promoted, so people familiar with Asian dramas will often immediately jump to that assumption about GG and DD and about the BTS.

Heteronormativity leads many people to immediately dismiss the possibility of a gay relationship, which leads them to try to come up with other explanations for those clips.

People naturally have a hard time believing what they're seeing with some of those clips. Some of it is pretty jaw-dropping and it's understandable that some people will be skeptical.

However, there are a lot of really good reasons why these clips are obviously not fan service.

For one thing, the show was billed as a martial brotherhood, not as a romance. Some of the official BTS clearly did try to appeal to CP and MDZS fans and could be counted as fan service, but those weren't even the ones BXG are most excited about. (There is a playlist of some of the official BTS clips here).

The most exciting stuff was never released during promo, and almost none of it is overtly romantic. A lot of it is really crude and totally unreleasable as promo. GG and DD are lewd, crude and often rude in ways that only two people who are really close could ever get away with. In many cases it's the casual way GG and DD constantly cross polite social boundaries with each other that shows their intimacy, rather than anything overtly sweet or romantic.

A lot of it is also totally incomprehensible to regular audiences. You have to be a turtle digging deeply into GGDD to understand the significance of most of it. For example the way GG took care of DD on his birthday, or the way DD constantly bargained and haggled with GG to get him to eat more.

Most importantly, if it was all fan service then why did GG and DD never do any joint CP endorsements? The entire point of doing that type of fan service is to make a buck. Other drama CP - including BL - do this all the time.

And it doesn't make sense that a production that was as low budget as The Untamed could afford to have the two lead actors learn a whole second set of lines and do a whole second performance that never ended up getting released.

And of course, none of that explains why the bulk of the BTS clips ended up in the hands of fans and released years after the show finished airing. A lot of it still has never been released to this day.

I've often joked that if the BTS were scripted they were far more complex, more melodramatic and better written than the drama itself. You just can't come up with this stuff in a writer's room. 😅

Anyway, this post got a bit long but hopefully it gives you a bit more of a picture of what it was all like at the time. Sorry, I guess I didn't talk much about my own feelings/reactions, but hopefully you can get somewhat of a sense.

Overall it was exciting, but I also had some deep reservations about it all (and got a lot of hate mail for voicing those feelings, too). Keep in mind this wasn't long after 227, so I think it's understandable that I was feeling very wary about everything.

But that's all water under the bridge now. It's been many years, and if the BTS were going to harm GGDD it would have already happened. I think it's all pretty safe territory now.

Edit: some more of my thoughts and feelings at the time:

One of the most exciting things for me about the BTS clips was seeing so many of the fake rumors being proved true. There were a lot of rumors (including the 49 fake candies) that I totally scoffed at when I first heard about them, only to later find via the BTS clips that I had been totally wrong about them and that these things had actually happened, and even crazier things were gradually revealed.

Things were changing pretty rapidly for a while there now that I think about it.

Learning more about their relationship and seeing just how much they looked out for each other was another big one for me. Also the timeline. The BTS really reinforced my belief in The Devil's Timeline (the belief that they got together prior to filming).

But overall that was a very different time in the fandom as well. There were always so many candies coming out, not just BTS clips but things that came out of GG and DD's activities and social media posts. It was a really really busy time in the fandom.

Since then there has been a government crackdown on fandom culture, on the entertainment industry, on LGBTQ etc. in China, plus DD's split with Nike and him having to delete a lot of his GG candy posts from his Weibo account.

Things are so different now, and unfortunately a lot of it for the worse. Being a turtle is not always easy, and I'm sure being GG and DD can't always be easy either. We make it work, but I do sometimes look back wistfully on the freer, more exciting times in the fandom.

More such times could come in the future. We just have to keep moving forward and hope for the best.

Somewhat related: I did a semi-comprehensive post about GG and DD's reaction to turtles here.

[wutheringskies]

Post-Canon Fics in MDZS...

You know, what would make post-canon fics great? If they adhered to canon! This post is honestly just a list of character tropes, and plot tropes I find incessantly OOC, replaced by plot tropes I wish we hyped up more.

1. Yunmeng Bros Reconciliation

There are plenty of reasons this will never happen. Firstly, Jiang Wanyin will not apologize to Wei Wuxian further beyond the apology that he has made in Guanyin Temple, because to apologize, you need to see "wrong" in your actions and regret them. Jiang Cheng doesn't have a similar morality index as Wei Wuxian and their beliefs have always been different. Not to mention Jiang Cheng is inherently bitter since he was young; following down the path of his mother. His first instinct when someone is being praised is so squash them down.

Secondly, Wei Wuxian will not apologize to Jiang Cheng beyond the apology of breaking that promise that only Jiang Cheng was left holding onto - a culmination of their broken dreams and desires, a marking of them being a generation of war.

The only thing both of them have in common is their love for Jin Ling and a shared, painful past - a past that Wei Wuxian wants to move on from, a past that Jiang Cheng is simultaneously rooted in, and moved away from.

Note: that this, I am speaking for is MDZS canon. Not CQL, as well, Jiang Cheng didn't directly kill those Wens which is the tipping point.

Replaced by: Loving Jin Ling

In the MDZS Novel, we go from seeing Jiang Cheng become increasingly abusive and violent towards Jin Ling as the stakes worsen and Jin Ling becoming annoyed and having arguments with him, not agreeing with his thinking.

We also see, Wei Wuxian, being the one to push Jin Ling to talk to Jiang Cheng in the Iron Hook Extra. We see Wei Wuxian being disgustingly affectionate towards Jin Ling, and Jin Ling being a tsundere about it and promising to himself that from the next time, he'll stick around Wei Wuxian in night hunts, implying these two will be consistently in each other's lives.

We also learn that Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji take Sizhui out on night-hunts (a family). And that Sizhui and Jin Ling go on night-hunts together. Also, that Wen Ning often joins their night-hunts.

So, hear me out, post-canon fics revolving around this strange, muddly, messy support system and family that Jin Ling has amassed.

Yunmeng bros reconciliation is never going to happen; too much interaction might worsen their tentative mutual ignorance of each other. Wei Wuxian, who's always pushed himself into other's personal spaces, is fine with just ensuring Jiang Cheng is okay. Distance is better than proximity.

But what plausibly might happen is Jin Ling forming deeper connections with his scattered, support system. Jin Ling might open up to Jiang Cheng for help with this or that, as Wei Wuxian has advised. Jiang Cheng might learn how to not be emotionally abusive or harsh and show the love he has for Jin Ling in better ways. Jin Ling will probably end up getting closer to Wei Wuxian and Sizhui and understanding just so many things about, everything. He might be supported by Hanguang-jun.

He might grow up to be the best Jin sect leader there ever was.

2. Wei Wuxian navigating through a world where everyone hates him, withering away.

This is, not only one of the saddest post-canon takes, but also very OOC. It might not make sense what I'm talking about so I'll list out common tropes I put under this categorization:

a) Wei Wuxian has terrible self esteem

b) He feels undeserving of Lan Wangji's love and keeps him at a distance emotionally by seducing him for sex instead

c) He has a childlike innocence, he goes out and hears everyone talking shit about him and stays indoor most of the time

d) He is mistreated by Lan clan and Lan Wangji is oblivious to it all

And such. I definitely understand why these tropes are so popular. It feeds into a particular sort of misery but there is a lot that it ignores:

a) Wei Wuxian firstly doesn't have terrible self esteem. If he did, he wouldn't have made it this far (coughs, the big age of 21 or 22). People ignore the fact that Wei Wuxian is a strong protagonist. He is proud, and aware of his worth. He never plays down his talents. He understands quickly the perspective of other people, and already knows that the people who talk more, do less.

In his first life, he went through being coreless and powerless, hated by all, but still standing up for stuff he believed in and lounging and drinking. He's not afraid to make others uncomfortable with his presence. That is a part of his charm. He cares for the opinions of only few people - and those few love him.

b) The one where he's emotionally distant towards Lan Wangji is the one I possibly hate the most. Especially because these sorts of fics often have him distracting Lan Wangji from his bouts of worthlessness and insecurity by his body, and Lan Wangji jumps straight into action.

Lan Wangji knows Wei Wuxian well enough that he offers comfort to Wei Ying even when he doesn't realize he needs it; like hugging him in Intrustion extra when they are on the topic of servants. Wei Wuxian can read Lan Wangji well, and so can Lan Wangji. Both of them have a relationship built on mutual trust and understanding. Wei Wuxian isn't sticking around with the Lan Clan and the jingshi because it's what Lan Wangji wants, but it's also what Wei Wuxian wants.

Also, Wei Wuxian doesn't feel undeserving of Lan Wangji. He knows he has caused Lan Wangji a lot of pain, intentionally or not, and is dedicated to making him happy, and being in love. It was all in his Guanyin Temple confession - their relationship is not out of gratefulness or anything like that.

c) Wei Wuxian is innocent at his soul, but he's not a child. He knows what the world thinks and he doesn't care. He doesn't expect the world to talk nicely about him; he probably doesn't even hear half the chatter, and even if be acknowledges it, it doesn't need to emotionally hurt him. Unrelatable? Yes. But that's how his character is like.

And if he ever is hurt or surprised, he's going to seek comfort. Act childish, ask to be pampered, etc.

d) THIS one is so... We see Wei Wuxian stepping into the Lan Clan. One day later, he's sitting next to Lan Wangji in a banquet, accepted as his cultivation partner. Lan Qiren is definitely against his presence. But like, sincerely, how long will that go on when we know that Wei Wuxian is the one who takes Lan juniors to night hunts everyday? We also see Wei Wuxian acting independently with juniors onto missions where assistance from the Lan Clan was requested (Iron Hook extra) without any Lan Wangji or anyone else. He even has a jade pendant, just four days after settling in. Lan Qiren has to hear his moans like... every night. A few hours in and he's talking to a Lan female cultivator?

Lan Wangji himself has injured thirty three Lan elders and been punished by the worst punishment, probably, ever assigned. Beyond Lan Qiren's glares and admonishments, I sincerely doubt anyone can do or say much. What I don't doubt is that Wei Wuxian is loveable and makes friends easily, and that despite everything, he's Lan Wangji's cultivation partner. A teacher. Accesses all Lan cottages and buildings. And now an addition to the Lan family.

And as for what the general people speak, perhaps the Yiling Laozu will always be a figure that haunts children bed time stories. But Senior Wei, and Hanguang-jun's husband, and Wei Wuxian - is shown to be a figure that is loved, respected by many.

The whole of cultivation world TRIED to kill him (Second Seige). They were embarrassed. Only like 20 people were actually there to kill him.

These 20 people will probably never be able to touch a hair on his head.

The WHOLE of cultivation world was saved by Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji and the Wens' remains. Stories always travel fast, don't they? The cultivation world has found their newest figure to hate - and it's not Wei Wuxian. Not just that, even the one with the most hostility towards him (Jiang Cheng) didn't DISALLOW him from coming to Lotus Pier where in front of him, they transferred crimes previously "done" by him to Jin Guangyao (like the death of Jin Zixuan - let's not fool ourselves and think anyone other than Jin Ling cares about the truth). Not just that, the cultivation world asked "Master Wei" for help.

Wei Wuxian didn't come back to life only to live a terrible, hated, agonizing life. Most people don't care. He doesn't care. Those who care are not strong enough. Those he cares about love him.

Replaced by: Wei Wuxian navigating through life without heavy burdens on his shoulder

Much of the fics focus on the "burden" of the trauma he's been through his life in the fics. Very few focus on the lack of burdens. Like... the guy is now well fed. His feelings are returned. There's nobody in danger. He has a body that can grow a core again. He can slowly pick up Suibian. He can learn new tunes on Chenqing. He can hang out with Wen Ning. He can think back to fond memories. He can paint, read, travel, teach, have great ideas and tap 100% into his actual personality.

He can process stuff he's been through in a healthier way. Like, I don't know, that intrusion scene where LWJ immediately hugs him when the topic of servants come is so important to me, because, it makes me wonder what sorts of conversations they have had. He now gets pampered and indulged - and we all know he loves it, but often the portrayals of his thoughts about being loved is very self critical which isn't canon. And it would be really cool for Wei Wuxian to have just, time, on his hand.

He was barely free for a year and changed the ways of the cultivation society forever. Without much resources or money. Now, the possibilities are endless. He can not only travel, but buy expensive stuff and have a bunch of Lan texts and a very educated and smart husband to help him invent more.

3. CQL Shade but Post-Canon Fics where Wangxian is too busy with responsibilities for each other ???

Why are you guys hurting yourselves? Like, there's only a certain amount of these sorts of fic that's acceptable until it becomes a sort of widely accepted canon.

I think it definitely has to with Chief Cultivator Lan Wangji. My poor baby, his romantic heart, extremely concise replies, and disdain for worldly matters (HIS LITERAL NAME IS WANGJI. HIS SWORD IS BICHEN) was ignored in the favour of making him a cold, busy husband who's sorting minor clan disputes, surrounded by length drabbles and politics by those that once killed his husband.

This is just so awful for me. In the intrustion extra, even after dressing up early, with a guest waiting outside (Master Qin), he lets the guest WAIT than wake Wei Ying up (who sleeps until noon).

If he became chief cultivator the world would collapse. If Wei Ying held onto his robes a little too tightly, he wouldn't even step out of the Jingshi.

Like he told Wei Ying, "I've been damned since long ago." Lan Wangji is a pure romantic. He's never going to be too busy for Wei Wuxian, or too distant, or too cold.

Like, guys just no. Let's write post-canon Wangxian. Not Madam Yu-Jiang Fengmian inspired Wangxian.

[wufflesvetinari]

finished cql! i have many (many) adaptation complaints but broadly had a good time anyway

things i liked:

could not have cast a lan wangji who worked better for me. i was on tumblr in 2011 i know it's easy to make hay out of "microexpressions" that do not exist but. these microexpressions sure as fuck exist. wang yibo understood the assignment. that's not even touching on the care around posture and vocal inflection, and the fact that he is ALSO. perhaps the most beautiful man in the world. i saw a post complaining his cheeks were too chubby for lwj and i wanted to riot

the face acting gets really good between wwx and lwj generally, esp. in the last few episodes. lots of subtle cues to each other in ways that scream familiarity really nicely

really enhanced my attachment to jin ling? arrogant child. ugly crier. important to me

there's some acting choices around wwx coming back from the burial mounds that play up an interesting ambiguity wrt "resentful energy" vs "straight-up ptsd." i think in the novel you see the implication of ptsd in the choices wwx makes after that, but xiao zhan incorporated a lot of mannerisms that are just straight-up "oh this guy is visibly hypervigilant and not having a good time"

lwj kneeling in the snow as punishment for visiting the burial mounds is an A+ extrapolation. especially good choice to hit me in the face MANY episodes later with the flashback of baby!lwj waiting for his mom and he is also kneeling in the snow. fridge horror almost, but for character psychology

as previously mentioned, love allowing lwj and jyl to interact. love the light-touch implication that she Knows What He Is

on the whole i guess i am pro-More Wen Siblings? they feel a little superfluous in places, but, eh

while i hate that they separated in the last ep and it is characterization-wise Not Real to me, the very veeeery ending with what i think is implied to be them failing to separate again, confession forthcoming, is super good. that one final moment nearly redeems the conceit for me

i also have a LOT of complaints lmfao, more than would be fun to go into, but just to condense the biggest ones:

the pacing sucks so bad guys. the pacing is so incredibly bad. big group scenes that read fine in the novel were fucking terrible

yin iron plot = very bad. i get they needed a way to tie the "flashback" timeline together since they chose to tell the story linearly, but (see next point):

didn't like that they chose to tell it linearly. for many reasons, including that you lose out on that delicious contrast between current!lwj and flashback!lwj, where wwx (and the reader, at first) have no idea why lwj is suddenly winning at gay chicken

hated them removing any culpability/nuance from wwx when shit went wrong, though i am given to understand this might be censorship-related

again, they would simply not separate. it is believable that they could fail to get their shit together and confess (only happened in the novel because lan xichen was At His Fucking Limit) but in that case they would simply continue to hang off of each other weirdly and make it everyone else's problem

i miss the delicious intensity mismatch in the beginning of their relationship that makes wwx's feelings hitting him like a fucking train later so much more impactful (and funnier tbh)

i miss the zombies :(

[travalerray]

chengqingxian for the ask meme?

Thanks for the ask!

Do you ship it?

No, sorry.

Why don’t you ship it?

Uhhhh. I don't have much against the ship itself rather than how the live action portrayed Chengqing (and consequently Wen Qing) along with the fact that Wen Qing is one of the two female characters who Wei Wuxian has an actual relationship with.

What would have made you like it?

Oh good point! I do have a fondness for mad scientists who experiment with the poor guy (Jiang Cheng)'s body. Especially novel canon Wen Qing because like—girlie just got pestered enough to experiment on him and Just Did It. Sure why not. Wei Wuxian and Wen Qing's relationship is one of the most fascinating to me because it's about recognising yourself in the other in the worst of times. I do think this ship has ample potential....I would love to see the tragedy of loving two people who decided that they knew what the best for you was, one decided that Clearly She Needs To Cut The Other Up For Science And Shove It Into You and now you have to live with it. Just....Idk, CQL sure was trying to Do Something. That something wasn't for me, good for those who like it though. It sure is feeding everyone's character interaction needs from the little I did watch.

Despite not shipping it, do you have anything positive to say about it?

Mhmm. Anything involving a character that's canonically dead dead and another that has been dead once and another that's famous for never moving on from the denial phase of grief is always a tasty one. Especially if the former two are also real famous for teaming up to consult each other to decide what's best for their younger sibling/shidi. Like....when do they fall for each other? Is it before the war? Is it Miss Grumpy, Mr. Grumpy and Mr. Haha Hehe (all three insane), somehow developing something? Like,,,I do love the horror and intimacy of Qingxian first meetcute because of the instant understanding that the other would leave no stones unturned if something happened to their precious one. But if it did happen before the war....then there's something distinctly horrifying about Wen Qing performing a surgery she had always theorized about, never got subjects for and then got them handed to her and they are the ones she loved. Fucked up. Deeply obsessed with her response when she sees a prone Jiang Cheng in the novel is to go "oh you bring a tortured man and you couldn't bother to knock him unconscious so that he doesn't make people suspicious? Shame on you Wen Ning" and then shoves needles into his head herself. It's just none happiness with left grief for Jiang Cheng because of course the man he loves decides to walk off from him along with the woman he loves as well. Do they not—and they are dead. Great. Great. Wei Wuxian? Wei Wuxian is trying so hard to convince himself that this time he will do the self sacrifice and intimidating other clans with his red eyeliner thing correct. It's not working? OTHER people can do the self sacrifice thing too? Oh no. Honestly this is just canon but sadder, I think.

.....well I have definitely seen manyAUs where Jiang Cheng is engaged to Wen Qing Yanli style and Wei Wuxian feels very normal emotions about it. Surely one also exists where random political marriage between the Yiling Patriarch, Sandu Sengshou and Wen-daifu.

[llycaons]

ep19 (part 1) : you know it's bad when you see a torture scene and you're like 'oh yeah this is the least painful thing to happen to him in three episodes and it'll only get worse after this'

on my first watch I remember being like 'oh god she looks like shit', honestly he's a little tired looking and he's got a far-away look in his eyes that points to some extreme inner distress or distracting pain and he coughs very weakly but. yeah no he looks pretty bad

what we all assumed was hunger but was. you know

unintentionally (?) funniest shots in the episode. wzl might actually know about wwx's core at this point - I assume he can sense them. I can think of no other reason for him to look at his hand like that

scream. with context...well we know why. and wwx likely hasn't slept either

of all the additions to the story cql made, this is by far one of the most powerful and memorable. it's such a beautiful scene and imo it points to what jc deep down wanted more than anything. happy family. everyone getting along. his some safe. wwx is there, and I know there's a lot of debate over whether jc sees his as a brother but it's hard to argue he didn't see him as par of that family in some way, regardless of how he treated him

this scene wasn't in the novel unless im really misremembering, but it's much easier to believe that jc viewed wwx differently there compared to here

his mother welcoming him! smiling! being kind and affectionate to his siblings!

his father interacting with him willingly! playing with him! believing in him! such simple things, and so out of reach for jc, once hard to imagine him attaining and now impossible

he knows to thank bssr but I don't think he'll ever thank wwx :/

RUDE BITCH

he's tired so I can forgive that his comeback to 'you're a dog' is 'NO YOU'

why are you like this. maniac

here he is! wwx is defined by his low birth status and his unstable relationship with the aristocracy. they can cast him out at any time, and do so once it's clear he will act against them. there is treatment and slander he endures that a highborn individual would never face even if they did the exact same things that he did. but wwx is scrappy. he uses everything he has to his advantage. he even weaponizes his lack of privilege.

wjl are you stupid. like. love this woman, she's very funny, but seriously. you work with cultivators

oof oof ouch. this is a rough scene and it's the least bad thing to happen to wwx from his enemies (or allies) in a while. after watching his home be destroyed, seeing myu blame him for everything then died with jfm, LP overtaken and disrespected, needing to get jc back, staying awake for days researching, then lying awake for two days and a night undergoing surgery, and AFTER this getting thrown into a pit of corpses where you're expected to lose your soul to endless torment....well. this is bad but relatively bearable

anyway ohh yin iron is reacting to his blood

I love when side characters deliver exposition loudly and obviously. very convenient for our protags

JC SAW THEM. SCREAM. I don't think he could have done anything esp since he doesn't have his sword but he SAW them. isn't that wild

if he was just a few hours earlier...well, wwx would still die, wouldn't he? being thrown into the burial mounds was horrifically traumatizing but it did facilitate his career in necromancy and he wouldn't have been resurrected without his own writings on the topic. and this is a very shitty situation for him to imagine an plot divergence

that being said this is one of the most horrific things that can happen to a person in like. any piece of media. this man has suffered so much bizarre and specific trauma

DON'T TOUCH HIM

DON'T CALL HIM THAT

SCREAM

shut up wen chao you're not the one binding him there

the smoke catching him, making his descent somewhat gentler. it can sense what's happening

in the book I think it's canon that he breaks several bones in the fall. or maybe that was in a fanfic I read. I like it more when it breaks his bones honestly bc it adds to the rawness and realism of the scene tho I am not complaining cql wwx has it a little better

and if that's not enough, wen ning has also been tortured! and wq in imprisoned!

[admirableadmiranda]

The novel ending reeks of codependency. In CQL, we see that WWX needs time and space to process everything that’s happened to him! He needs an opportunity to just live and experience the world and become reacquainted with, after being gone for over decade. Once the mystery is resolved, he is vulnerable and without a strong sense of who he even is and how he fits into the world now. He has LWJ to go back to, but he can’t build his entire sense of identity around LWJ, and that relationship can’t be his only source of happiness and fulfillment. And he genuinely seems to like exploring and having new experiences and meeting new people! It’s a good way for him to get a sense of who he is now. It’s true that WWX has a lot of insecurity and neurosis re: feeling deserving of care and affection, and I’m not claiming that he’s completely resolved those issues (or any of his issues). But I think there’s a lot more trust between him and LWJ, and that he’s considerably more secure in that relationship, by the end of the show. Post-resurrection there are a lot of scenes where he’s a lot more mature in his interactions with LWJ, a lot more capable of grasping LWJ’s boundaries, and a lot better at tempering his teasing with sincerity. So I don’t take his self-discovery journey as the same sort of destructive impulse towards isolation that he displays after his stint in the Burial Mounds. I think it’s a demonstration, rather, of the trust he’s built in LWJ, and in the fact that he doesn’t need to constantly be demanding attention for LWJ to still wait for him and be there for him when he’s ready to come back. And it’s being able to clearly communicate his needs and intentions in a given moment, rather than just shutting the other person out. from LWJ’s perspective - it’s so important that he’s able to let WWX go! LWJ is also incredibly neurotic and also feels that he’s not deserving of love. And he grows up without any models of what healthy relationships look like - his parents’ relationship is the only framework he has, as evidenced by him taking inspiration from that in wanting to hide WWX at Cloud Recesses. But he quickly realizes that that’s not what he wants, and that he doesn’t want to force WWX to do anything. When WWX comes back to life, he takes care of him and gives him gifts not because he’s expecting anything in return, but because he loves him and wants to make him happy and show him kindness when so few people have. But it’s important, I think, for him to be able to spend time apart from WWX, to give him the space he needs, without seeing that as just another sacrifice that he’s making. When he sees WWX off on his self-discovery journey, he’s in a place where he can start to trust that WWX will come back, and that he has massive significance for WWX even when WWX doesn’t have to depend on him for emotional and material support.   Being able to maintain distance from each other, and maintain their own separate identities and relationship, with each one still having confidence in the strong foundation they’ve built together, is very important.

Not only is it too long didn’t read, it’s too long most of your message doesn’t show up in the reply.

Anon, Wei Wuxian does not need to discover himself or reconnect with the world in order to be happy before he can do anything. He knows exactly what he wants, a husband.

Also, codependent? Really? Have you ever met a married couple? I’m a married woman and I can attest that they are fine. They have a honeymoon that’s just the two of them, that’s completely normal. They go out and do things together, but there’s also times when it’s just one of them going out.

Like CQL’s sad, censored ending all you like, where Wei Wuxian wanders off because Lan Wangji decides to take up politics over being with him, but I’m gonna take my novel ending and happy boys any day.

[korpikorppi]

I recently reblogged a post about Lan Jingyi and his hero-worshipping of Lan Wangji, and was reminded of something that I only really paid attention to while screencapping some scenes of the 2nd Siege of the Burial Mounds some time ago: the relationship between Lan Jingyi and Lan Qiren.

After the freed juniors, Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji meet the arriving cultivators and are attacked by the puppets, the newcomers lose their spiritual powers one by one in the middle of the battle. When this happens to Lan Qiren, it is Lan Jingyi who hurries to his side, supporting and protecting him.

And as the cultivators retreat inside the Demon Subdue Palace, he stays right by Lan Qiren's side. It is him Lan Qiren gives his scabbard to hold while he activates the array to hold the puppets at bay.

And it is next to Lan Qiren that Lan Jingyi delivers his verbal bashing of Su She, to no objection from the former (Lan Sizhui looks far more disapproving).

It is Lan Jingyi who constantly flanks Lan Qiren, and who stays behind by Lan Qiren's side as Lan Sizhui and Jin Ling go out to help Wen Ning fight the puppets (contrary to the novel, where all the juniors follow Wen Ning).

And as the cultivators flee the Demon Subdue Palace while Wei Wuxian lures the puppets away, it is Lan Jingyi who helps Lan Qiren and looks after him.

Lan Jingyi is, of course, a Lan by blood and thus related to Lan Qiren (I have not seen it mentioned how closely), so it is his duty (more than the other disciples', except Lan Sizhui's perhaps) to look after Lan Qiren. But there is a familiarity and ease in their interactions, in the way Lan Jingyi is his loudmouthed, straight-spoken, not-giving-a-shit-about-status self in Lan Qiren's presence that speaks of more than just duty. That says the two of them genuinely like and respect each other, that gives off a kind of grandfather - grandson vibe.

That says that the strict, rules-enforcing Lan Qiren has gotten just a little bit softer with age, has become close with a certain Junior dubbed the most un-Lan of Lans. And that is one little change in CQL that I find charming as well as thought-provoking.

Because it seems so very different from the relationship between Lan Qiren and young Lan Wangji. While it is quite clear that Lan Qiren deeply cares for Lan Wangji (for both his nephews), their relationship has always appeared much more formal, more wreathed in strict rules, never with similar kind of ease or closeness. One factor in this is, of course, the very different personality of Lan Wangji compared to Lan Jingyi. And as Lan Qiren was pretty much single handedly raising up the Twin Jades, he was raising clan heirs, and saw the need to apply and enforce a more strict regime. Added to that all the pain and loss and lack of proper communication intertwined in their history, it is no wonder Lan Qiren came very close to losing Lan Wangji. And that is perhaps one major factor behind this relationship: the questions "Who is right? Who is wrong? What is black? What is white?” must have been imprinted in Lan Qiren's mind (how could they not have been?) and pondering them over the years perhaps added at least a few shades of grey to his world view (he is willing to at least listen to Wei Wuxian here, quite an improvement!), and led to him being more approving (perhaps even appreciative dare I say?) of those who do not fully embrace the perceived norm, who dare to question things and speak their mind.

And perhaps Lan Jingyi is his second chance, his chance to have the kind of relationship he wished he'd had with Lan Wangji. Or perhaps I'm just reading too much into this. Whichever, I'll just finish with these two screencaps from the aftermath at the Guanyin Temple:

[yea-baiyi]

Scene analysis – Lan Wangji’s iconic love confession: differences in meaning and impact in the novel vs the show.

(This post has been sitting in my drafts forever, but I’m finally, FINALLY here to deliver! It is a monster.)

The main difference that people point out about this scene is that after Lan Wangji drops the iconic line 我想带一人回云深不知处...带回去，藏起来 / I wish to take someone back to Cloud Recesses. Take them back, and hide them away*. Lan Xichen gets the line "他不愿 / but he is not willing", whereas Lan Wangji is the one to say the entire line in the book.

For precision’s sake, the text in the novel is 他不愿 / he is not willing, while in CQL, Lan Xichen’s full line is 只怕他不愿吧? / it’s just that he would not be willing, right?

(*I’m using my own translation of the line - you can read my full translation notes here. But just for ease of reading the screenshots have the Netflix subtitles.)

On the surface it seems to be a negative change, as it detracts from Lan Wangji himself being the one to acknowledge the importance of consent.

But the thing is, this scene happens under a very different context in the show vs the novel. 1) Wangxian's relationship to each other is completely different when LWJ makes this confession, and 2) the information that Lan Xichen has coming into this conversation is very different. And that fundamentally changes the meaning of the words and the purpose of this conversation.

(Full analysis under the cut, ft: translation notes, more screencaps of LWJ’s beautiful face, Wangxian pining, and me losing it by the end)

–

Remember, prior to Wei Wuxian's death in the novel, Wangxian really don't interact. All of their public interactions have been bordering on unfriendly (e.g. the teasing at Cloud Recesses, WWX pulling off LWJ's headband, their falling out over WWX's demonic cultivation). Even though Lan Xichen picked up early on that Lan Wangji was interested in Wei Wuxian, he has no way to know how deep Lan Wangji's feelings really go.

(In the version of the text I’ve got, which I think might be a super old edition, it is very clear that LXC has no clue who LWJ is even talking about.)

So in the novel, this scene is Lan Wangji’s moment of confession to his brother of his love for Wei Wuxian. When he says, "I want to bring someone home and hide them", referencing their parents' 'love' story, he's saying, "I have someone that I love", in a language only his brother would understand.

Crucially, he then follows that confession of love with: "but he is not willing". With this, Lan Wangji separates his love from his father’s. This highlights the theme of consent in Wangxian’s relationship, and tells us what's on Lan Wangji's mind in his tense interactions with Wei Wuxian during this time. He's convinced that Wei Wuxian would never love him back, and Lan Wangji refuses to be his father.

This is the central dilemma of Lan Wangji in Wei Wuxian's first life. So yes, it's important that he got this line in its entirety in the novel.

But Wangxian's relationship in the Untamed is completely different. In Wei Wuxian’s first life, they're not strangers or enemies, they're best friends. They ditch parties together. Wei Wuxian swoons on the battlefield into Lan Wangji’s ready arms. Just a few minutes ago Wei Wuxian called them soulmates while they stared into each others eyes for a solid 30 seconds.

In this version of the story, it's no a secret that Wangxian love each other. Lan Wangji telling his brother that he loves Wei Wuxian wouldn’t be the earth-tilting revelation that it is in the novel. When he says, “I want to bring someone—” there’s only one someone that he could be talking about. The consent issue isn’t really relevant here*. 

Instead, the show turns this line into a different sort of admission.

At this point in the story, Lan Wangji is increasingly desperate to get through to Wei Wuxian. He’s trying to help him, but Wei Wuxian keeps pushing him away. We just saw him hit a breaking point when he confronted Wei Wuxian directly during the Baifeng Mountain hunt.

So when this Lan Wangji, in this context, says to his brother, "I want to take him home, to hide him away", he takes the same reference about their parents, and shifts the focus to a different part of the story – the fact that their father hid their mother away to save her life. He's saying, "I love him, and I'm afraid for him, and I'm desperate to protect him. I want to run away and hide him, so that he can’t get hurt."

Here, it makes perfect sense for Lan Xichen to respond, in essence, "But the thing is, he would not agree."

And he's right, because Wei Wuxian has been vocally defensive against any criticism. Lan Xichen is bringing up the obvious point that Wei Wuxian would likely reject Lan Wangji's help.

And Lan Wangji knows his brother is right.

It’s painfully timely for Lan Wangji’s fears to boil over at this moment, because Wei Wuxian is about to walk in and catapult himself right into danger and rejection. 

The chronological timeline of the show really works to build this tension, because you’ve spent the last few episodes watching Wei Wuxian fall apart, and you’re just waiting for the moment it all comes crumbling down.

What made me want to analyse this scene was the huge disparity I saw between novel and show-only fans’ reaction. Because it’s such a huge central moment in the book, but for those who only watched the show, it hardly clocked as anything special. I had a few friends who didn’t even remember it after finishing CQL.

And that makes sense, because while the confession in MDZS is one of THE highlights of Wangxian’s love story, CQL has plenty of other romantic moments which slap harder. This scene is literally sandwiched between “I thought of you as my soulmate” and “If I could be killed by you, it would be worth it.” hello???????? No wonder Lan Wangji’s quiet moment of confiding in his brother would go unnoticed. I do still adore this scene in the show though, particularly because of how cleverly the show managed to make this line still work in the new context.

Ultimately, this scene is just one which demonstrates clearly the monumental shift that the show made from the Wangxian of MDZS to the one we have in CQL. It’s just a fascinating topic with a lot of interesting potential for analysis, that I hope I can get around to doing some day!

-

*Note: The theme of consent and the comparison to his father is still absolutely relevant to LWJ in the show though, this post by @pumpkinpaix goes into a lot more depth.

[ouyangzizhensdad]

I saw a few posts recently about how in XuanWu Cave LWJ biting WWX is supposed to be LWJ getting possessive/jealous/marking WWX and one of MXTX’s weird kinks. I wanted to know how you interpret that scene? I honestly think the scene is not meant to be interpreted as “hot” at all. I think it was LWJ’s last resort in the moment, after an Extremely Stressful Time™, to get WWX to just leave him alone. Obviously biting someone is not okay lmao but LWJ is very clearly having major emotional dysregulation based on how he snaps at WWX. I feel like saying this whole scene is only based on how he is jealous really ignores the uhhhh fucking war plot??? And how they got to this situation in the first place??? (The only thing I can think of the biting scene being intended as “romantic” is as a play on the phrase 啮臂之盟, lit. bite an arm to make an oath, usually used as a promise to get married, via BaiDu. But this is more tongue-in-cheek than actual subtext IMO)

(Part 2 to the Cave/Biting ask, salty edition) Also if antis say this scene is OOC for LWJ I will lose my mind. It’s not my favorite scene in the book nor is it particularly notable but it’s not OOC. In WWX’s first life LWJ is shown since their first meeting to be unable to control his emotions and actions as well as he wants to!!! Their first interaction is literally a sword fight. And then this happens again in the Library Pavillion, the XuanWu Cave, etc. LWJ’s knee jerk reaction (after trying to ignore his issues, which is also not healthy might I add) when super frustrated seems to be drawing his sword which obviously directly goes against everyone’s view of him as perfect and regulated etc. LWJ reacts with violence where it’s inappropriate and better to communicate multiple times! Which leads to WWX thinking LWJ doesn’t like him! Of course LWJ gets better at controlling his reactions as he gets older but damn. And some of these fight scenes were kept in for CQL??? I don’t understand the disconnect TBH. God forbid HanGuang-Jun has a Character Flaw that ties into the plot and themes of the story.

Hi anon,

While the novel does show that lwj can get bite-y during kisses and sex, I think it is a tenuous argument to suggest that the scene in the Tulu Xuanwu cave is meant to be read as having sexual undertones or to understand it as the mere expression of a character’s ‘kink’ or preferences.The context of it, as well as the headspace of the characters--particularly lwj--simply do not allow for that reading to be well-supported. It feels a little bit like, I don’t know, trying to argue that, in any context, if lwj ties a rope or a bit of fabric, it has got to be sexual, even if it is tying his own forehead ribbon in the morning.

As you mention, some people have pointed out that a potential reading of the scene relates to “ 啮臂之盟” and works as a declaration. This was never confirmed by mxtx, but mxtx famously prefers to let readers interpret the text and rarely confirms these sorts of interpretations so it might be what she intended. 

That being said, while this interpretation might still partly be true, if we look at the scene in context, to me it really seems as if lwj means to mark wwx for the sake of marking his memory.

Prior and after being locked in the cave, lwj sees wwx acting ‘frivolously’ towards both him and MianMianm, including wwx trying to shock him by stripping. This leads lwj to grow somewhat resentful. Based on what he says to wwx, it is clear that lwj finds himself in turmoil when he is on the receiving end of wwx’s teasing and attentions, having to remind remind himself that he is not ‘special’, that wwx does not have these intentions, that this is just how wwx acts (which 😥 no hgj you were special you were the most specialest, he was really flirting with you he just didn’t realise that’s what he was doing). I think, to anyone who has had (or thought they had) an unrequited love, that feeling of frustration is easy to understand; how hard it can be to keep your hopes in check when the person you like seems to treat you in a special way when that’s actually just the way they personally are towards many if not most people.

“Lan Zhan, you really are so strange today,” Wei Wuxian began, once more. “You’re so rude. And you are not talking like yourself either.”

“If you do not have those intentions, then do not flirt with others. You are doing as you please yet others will end up in turmoil.”

The conversation is also preceded by to the topic of “brands”; that having something remain on your body can work as a representation, a reminder. In this case, it becomes clear that wwx having a mark on his body will remind him of having saved a guniang, and will ensure that the guniang herself never forgets him. This leads lwj, who has been shouldering with a stiff lip quite a lot of emotional turmoil since the wen attacked the cr, to lash out and get angry at wwx for this very fact, to the point of physically shoving him.

Lan Wangji’s face was dark. A moment later, he replied, “If you know it hurts, do not be so rash next time.”

“It’s not like I had any other choice, did I? Do you think I enjoy being burned? Who would’ve known that Wang Lingjiao is that heartless? She almost pressed the iron into her eye. MianMian is a girl, and quite a pretty one, at that. If she were blind in an eye or her face scarred, she would have to bear it for the rest of her life. How bad would that be?”

“The thing on your body right now will remain for the rest of your life as well,” Lan Wangji spoke in a thin voice.

“That’s different. It’s not on my face. And I’m a man—what am I scared of? In a man’s life, how could he not get a few wounds and earn a few scars?”

His upper body bare, he was squatting on the ground as he picked up a branch and poked at the flames. “And, if you consider it from another perspective, even though this will never disappear from my body, it represents the fact that I protected a guniang. And the guniang will definitely remember me after this. She won’t be able to forget me for the rest of her life. Now that I think about it, it’s actually quite—”

Suddenly, Lan Wangji shoved him hard, raging.

“So you also know that she will not be able to forget you for the rest of her life!”

Then, just before lwj starts biting wwx, we get the following line that is actually an idiom in chinese ( 好了伤疤忘了痛 ).

Somehow, Wei Wuxian had moved beside him again and sat down, speaking without a care for the consequences [...] Lan Wangji glanced at him, a person who seemed to forget all past pain as soon as the wounds had healed. Just as Wei Wuxian was about to give him a large grin, he suddenly saw Lan Wangji lower his head [...] Lan Wangji was buried into the crescent of his elbow, biting firmly into his arm.

While in this case, it can be taken very literally: that, indeed, as soon as wwx stops feeling the pain of lwj’s earlier shove, he already starts moving back near him. However the idiom also has a more metaphorical sense of forgetting past difficulties once the situation improves which--isn’t this coincidentally quite a good illustration of wwx?

That being said, if we remain in a more literal interpretation, and we think back to the discussion regarding the brands and remembering, the bite can be interpreted as lwj trying to force wwx to remember him--to leave him with a brand of his own, although it is one that will fade away. Perhaps, to a degree, to force wwx to think about lwj just as much as lwj is incapable of escaping thoughts about wwx, if only for a short while.

I think, through this reading, lwj’s ensuing “thank you”s make sense; having relieved this frustration in his heart, these stifled hopes of his, that the quick-forgotten shove had not managed to truly put to rest. That this is enough to defuse some of his more recent frustration. So that’s the interpretation I lean more toward, although of course there is nothing that makes it impossible to have both 啮臂之盟 and 好了伤疤忘了痛 coexist--characters’ actions can have more than a single motivation! And there are potentially other interpretations possible that I simply have not personally thought of.

Now, does that mean that lwj is jealous? Kinda, yeah? It’s not a secret that lwj experiences jealousy during the novel. Big fucking whoop! Some people really took ‘jealousy is not love’ and ‘your lover’s jealousy should never be used as an excuse to control you’ and went ‘if anyone ever feels any jealousy and, god-forbid, ever have any negative feelings or impulsive reactions due to this, they are irredeemable and their love is toxic’. Although we know lwj is jealous at different point in the narrative (rip that poor rock), we only see him act in childish but short-lived ways when he’s very drunk or, in this case, when he is emotionally very fragile, having nearly died after weeks of mistreatment and humiliation, all the while his brother is on the run, his father is dying and his home has been burned down. It’s fine to not like these choices, as part of a romance or otherwise, to question whether they truly bring something to the narrative, the characterisation or the relationship between the characters, but to act like these are big red flags of toxic and problématique behaviour is like... Sure I guess there is no sliding scale between healthy/sainthood and toxic/problématique, and all these people writing these takes must be living examples of the “I have never done anything wrong in my life, ever” meme.

[gay-snom]

contextualizing lwj’s coming to terms with his feelings subplot!

i wanna talk about the role of confucianism in this subplot because i think it’s something some western fans might not pick up on. basically, the sociopolitical climate of confucianism in his character arc, and a little bit about his interaction with the public image theme.

disclaimer: i’m not chinese but i do have a double minor in chinese and asian studies and have written a few papers on confucianism.

we’re gonna be talking about the novel bc i feel its a little more in-depth and nuanced than lwj’s “what is black, what is white” monologue in cql. namely the tension and misunderstanding in wwx’s first life and how lwj got his scars. i feel like it’s pretty well accepted that wwx made lwj reconsider his world view, so i’m just gonna expand on it. also i want to point out it's pretty unspoken in most of the text, but lwj is also affected by/used to explore the public image themes, as his image the is ideal confucian scholar.

confucianism is centered around the ideas of how to behave “good” in sociopolitical contexts. basically it boils down to a belief system on how society should be run. if everyone follows confucian beliefs, you will have an ideal society. the main text is the Analects, which you can read here. it’s been around for a few thousand years (like around 200 BCE ish), had a huge revival in the tang dynasty (618-907 CE). it was put on imperial exams, the emperor’s cabinet had confucian scholars, etc. this is just to say confucian values are important to historic society, especially upper-class scholars, which seems to be a role cultivators commonly fill in xianxia. here are some basic tenants:

being a gentleman/scholar/superior man (君子 jūn zǐ) : partly being learned in the arts, literature, music, poetry, etc., mostly behaving righteously and dutifully.

filial piety: usually described as obedience. it's not simply obeying everything elders tell you, it includes doing it with reverence and thankfulness for their sacrifices for you.

leading by example: if leaders/the government is righteous, the people will follow. lwj has his flock of juniors that are all strong cultivators and the lan sect is just generally known for being moral and good.

rites/rituals: a focus on politeness and holding proper ceremonies, sacrifices, and funerals

speech: there’s some great meta about the register he speaks in here, i just want to touch on think carefully before you speak, only speak sincerely, etc.

tldr; lwj is THE perfect gentleman (even his title contains the character suffix 君 -jūn, like lxc. which, while this character is not uncommon for cultivator titles, it wasn’t chosen carelessly either. also not to be confused with 尊 -zūn). seriously, look at almost all of book 10 and you'll see don't do/consume in excess, don't talk during meals, sit only when your mat is straight, etc.

okay, so Why is understanding his feelings for wwx so troublesome?

1.2 "They are few who, being filial and fraternal, are fond of offending against their superiors. There have been none, who, not liking to offend against their superiors, have been fond of stirring up confusion... Filial piety and fraternal submission! - are they not the root of all benevolent actions?"

in other words, people who are filial will never create political tension. so like, morally, wwx should be considered horrible person! he’s not only snubbed the jiang sect. he was a head disciple who undoubtedly had younger students looking up to him. and then he goes and stirs up some huge political issues! he is now a bad role model for the people below him and disrespected the people above him. lwj has an entire image to uphold, he has poured his entire life into following these rules and beliefs, and then wwx comes along. would continuing to be in wwx's life taint lwj? there are some contradicting teachings in regards to interacting with wwx:

15.4: "Do not take counsel with those who follow a different Way"

15.28: "When the multitude hates a person, you must examine them and judge for yourself. The same holds true for someone whom the multitude love."

15.36 "When it comes to being Good, defer to no one, not even your teacher."

this is part of the reason lwj had so much trouble accepting his feelings. he didn’t know how to handle this situation, making him appear distant during/directly after sunshot. if he judges wwx's intentions to be pure, it's then not wrong to be friendly with him. but wwx still is morally wrong by society's standards. now, lwj has to not only figure out his feelings, but also reconcile this with how he still thinks wwx is Not a bad person, despite everything. what if he does get "tainted" by wwx? will it hurt the reputation of his sect? that would be un-filial, right? he spent his whole life memorizing rules that are probably extremely similar to sections in the Analects, and now these mixed messages (coupled with the relatable gay panic) are overwhelming.

onto the next! there’s something unspoken in the scene where wwx discovers why lwj has the whip scars. as other posts have mentioned, lwj taking wwx back to the burial mounds and nursing him is high treason. however, this action is also extremely un-filial. also his entire image is built around being a perfect gentleman, if this were to get out to the public he would lose absolutely everything. he would be just as irreparable as wwx.

“I was worried if those from another sect found you first, WangJi would be considered your accomplice. The best scenario was his name being forever tainted, and the worst was his life being taken away right then. Thus, along with Uncle, we chose thirty three seniors who had always thought highly of WangJi... ”

there’s no way lwj didn’t know what would happen if he did this. obviously as lxc says, if this got out, he would lose basically his entire face. and even though lxc didn’t mention this, it would definitely lose a lot of face for the lan sect as well since lwj is so prominent. the decision about what elders to bring is also notable.

“...As if he knew all along he would be discovered by us, he said that there was nothing to explain, that this was it. Growing up, he had never talked back to Uncle, not even once. But for you, not only did WangJi talk back to him, he even met with his sword the cultivators from the Gusu Lan sect...”

so yeah, he obviously knew they would come for him and what the consequences would be. and he still talked back! that’s already not a good look for the lan sect. but attacking them? totally unforgivable! lwj gives up how he was raised and the importance of filial piety, what he has held on to until this major plot event. since it's basically the biggest "fuck you" to his uncle and his clan, this was not a decision he made lightly. lwj shows them he cares more about wwx and His Own ideas of right and wrong than the sect’s or society’s.

Wei WuXian dug his hands into his hair, “...I-I didn’t know... I really...”

when was the last time wwx was at a loss for words? wwx spends a few paragraphs after this lamenting how he hurt lwj, but he's not unaware of the gravity of what lwj did. it's an underlying assumption from being raised in the culture. i would argue his first instinct is "oh god he gave up what for me?" since those lamenting paragraphs are after lxc finishes speaking.

"But he said... that he could not say with certainty whether what you did was right or wrong..."

this is something thrown around a lot in the Analects, that not even confucius can say for sure what is right or wrong. what better way to show lwj is still a perfect confucian than have him paraphrase confucius himself?

“...WangJi was a model for the disciples when he was young, and a prominent cultivator when he grew up. In his whole life he had been honest and righteous and immaculate--you were the only mistake he made!”

here’s the confirmation that the world and even his family thinks of him as a perfect gentleman, the top tier of society, and it was all thrown away for wwx. this is just so heavy. the mistake thing? thats not only because lwj is fraternizing with an enemy. lxc and the rest of the sect who knew are terrified this will forever corrupt lwj personally, not just publicly. lwj was so devoted to believing this was the right thing to do he offered up everything he had. the gravity of this decision is insane. it’s very obvious that he loves wwx, it’s just that he struggles a lot internally to accept everything that is happening.

as for helping wwx leave after the massacre, is this gentleman-ly of lwj? was it actually in-line with his image? is it more honorable to save someone who is dying, at the cost of your own health, than to look away? isn't looking away a form of resentment? i wasn't able to find a specific passage about bystander-ness, but personally i think it qualifies as "bad intentions." there is also this passage for what it's worth, originally it was about government suppression:

12.19: "...What do you say to killing the unprincipled for the good of the principled?" Confucius replied, "...why should you use killing at all?..."

lwj is always more actions than words, and he was not fucking around. his core beliefs really haven't changed, and remain very strong throughout his life. he is still righteous enough to accept his punishment, graceful enough to search for wwx's body since there was no one else to do the funeral rites (10.22/10.15), caring enough to take in a-yuan, upright enough to still spend his years going where the chaos is.

just with this one action, the audience knows he has come to terms with realizing that authority isn't always just, and neither is the public opinion/opinion of other gentlemen. he has reconciled. this is him standing for what he believes is right. this is his devotion. this is his own choice. just. poetic cinema...

anyway that's it for my first meta post! i would love to hear your thoughts, feelings, opinions, discussions, other meta ideas, whatever! thank u for reading! <3

[vrishchikawrites]

So I think the reason so many JC stans believe whenever he speaks ill of WWX it was because WWX never like does anything about it or retracts it or ever got angry?

I am so used to watching anime that where a character voiced their frustration or anger their backstory is shown and we the audience understand their motives and plight. WWX is a character I encountered that was different I intially believe that whatever the villagers and cultivators said about him were true because why would they lie? If so many people are giving takes of what he did when he was alive then he must be a villian.

So much so I deadass thought from the title and description that the plot of the story was a man who was once admired had fallen down back to grace. Hell, I didn't know WWX and LWJ we're lovers just thought they were good bros 😂😂😂 till I read the comment section.

Also since he was in Lotus Pier he seemed content and 😊 sure Madam Yu singled him out but I thought it was occasionally not frequently. One of the critism I have for the dongua is that the rose-tinted glasses came off whenever the Jiang's appeared to set the tone? It could be done really well because I think it is best to be transparent to the audience first going in.

I never thought a lot about the abuse WWX suffered till I stumbled across metas and threads speaking how serious the situation is. I wished the dongua showed that more clearly because they only appeared for a brief time.

I am sure that for many novel readers out there despise JC nature but CQL and dongua tend to wash their hands clean of their characters.

I think it depends on how sensitive people are to abuse. Some people are very sensitive and immediately notice the tone and interaction. The way YZY acted during that scene post Xuanwu incident initially made me sympathize with JC for a bit. Some people don't take these kinds of portrayals seriously enough and in a way imply that other readers are being too sensitive.

When I read fics, I felt sort of invalidated, lmao. I was like 'wait - was I too sensitive? Isn't YZY shitty? Isn't JC betraying his own 'brother'? Wait, isn't this wrong?' And in most fics, things were like 'YZY - tough, hiding her love - BOSS LADY!' and 'JC cares for his brother so much - he'll be angry about the core transfer and would want to hand it right back!'

As a new reader/fan, you're always a bit uncertain about your own opinions on the material. If you encounter these kinds of fics or metas early, they can reshape your opinion on different characters significantly. For me, I was like 'what's going on with this fandom' until I found people on Tumblr with metas that aligned with my observations.

I believe a lot of fan opinions on JC have happened because of fanfic. People watched CQL or donghua, sought out fanfic and promptly forgot about the OG material, allowing fans to shape their perspective on the character.

[crossdressingdeath]

i think, while cql obviously had no choice but to censor mdzs, they didn't have to make it impossible to read their relationship as romantic through subtext either,

because wangxian's relationship in cql makes no sense. once minute they're soulmates, the next it seems like they're barely more than acquaintances. and then, of course, like i don't need to talk about that rain scene or separating at the end bc we all already know it was Bad and Stupid.

but this just makes it impossible to make any sense of their relationship, in either a romantic or platonic context. cql could have at least given us a cohesive deep soulmate """"friendship"""" and with the subtext that's already there, then as viewers we could at least understand the romantic relationship that was meant to be there, even if everything was censored.

but.... instead they gave us nothing?? there is no substance to cql wangxian at all, just stupid queerbaity-esque scenes that have no real meaning and go no where and don't even make sense in their relationship development.

like they tell us that tying the forehead ribbon to someone means marriage, and then wangxian did that, but afterwards they're still not even friends?? i mean they could have used that subtext at the end to imply actual marriage but instead it just feels like they throw in scenes like that all over the place without any thought at all for what it implies abt wangxian's relationship

i mean it just so obvious that they put no effort or thought into at least conveying something of the source material, like they're just so disrespectful to wangxian??? as if their relationship can be reduced to some nonsense subtext about chickens and bunnies and forehead ribbons and annoyingly drawn out gazes, just sprinkled in throughout the story with no thought whatsoever to even developing a believable friendship between wwx and lwj

and then people have the cheek to say cql wangxian is better and you know they're full of ---- because even just read as friendship... there's nothing to cql wangxian!!! you can't look into their relationship, analyse the interactions between them and what it means for their characters, because none of it makes sense!! no matter how you look at it, there's just no logical coherence to anything that happens in cql. because the writers just?? couldn't be bothered?

i genuinely feel so bad when i see people who are new to the fandom or people who just like cql trying to make sense of the story, and i think, just don't even try??

The thing with CQL is that they wanted to change it so that LWJ and WWX bonded before everything went to shit, which is fair, but then they failed to consider the knock-on effects that change would have. For example, it makes sense that book WWX doesn’t trust LWJ to have his best interests at heart; they aren’t friends. He respects LWJ a great deal and I think does have some romantic feelings towards him even during the Sunshot Campaign, but he has no reason to believe LWJ would prioritize WWX over righteousness and the rules of his sect. Nor does WWX have any reason to tell LWJ the truth about his core and demonic cultivation. Meanwhile in CQL they’re close friends and soulmates; why the fuck wouldn’t WWX trust the guy he says knows him better than anyone else?! Why would he assume that LWJ wanted to take him prisoner, why wouldn’t he tell LWJ about his cultivation? Why would he and everyone else assume LWJ hated him? “Oh, we’re best friends, but clearly he loathes me!” It doesn’t make sense! The writers literally just changed things and made zero attempt to make those changes make sense, this is called Terrible Adaptation Decisions 101. Also LWJ is so much less respectful of WWX’s wishes in CQL; think about how he pulls off WWX’s mask while he’s unconscious (I guess to double-check his identity? I don’t know) even though WWX clearly did not want to tell him who he was while novel LWJ kept the fact that he knew to himself until WWX returned to him of his own free will after they were separated so that he knew WWX wasn’t staying just because LWJ knew who he was. And of course there’s the whole thing where WWX very obviously wants to stay with LWJ and LWJ is basically like “lol you thought” and goes off to do a job he didn’t want, leaving WWX entirely alone in a world that still lowkey wants him dead.

[aurora077]

The word is 'attempt' (Chapter 1)

Summary: Not this again! Jiang Yanli has had enough. No more Mrs. nice girl. Her parents really need a proverbial slap in the face and she is going to give it to them. Set after the Xuanwu cave.

Disclaimer: I do not own MDZS/CQL. Parts you recognise are from the novel.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/13962595/1/The-word-is-attempt

Chapter 1 - Aren't you tired of being nice? Don't you just want to go apeshit?

Jiang Yanli loved her younger brothers. That was a fact known to the entirety of Lotus Pier. It didn’t matter what trouble those two got up to, at the end of the day she would always be waiting for them with a smile and possibly some soup. Their people loved to see them all together, doting on them whenever they crossed paths with free food and little trinkets. Secretly, they were glad that the siblings were so close. It was an open secret that the adults in their household were...in a volatile relationship to put it mildly.

Nobody knew how Jiang Yanli turned out the way she did, but everyone loved her for her mild manners, gentle smile, and the way she would parent both her little brothers, showering them with the love and affection that was sorely lacking from their lives. Wei Wuxian, the little troublemaker, had lost his parents as a small child, and lived on the streets until Sect Leader Jiang found him. Despite this he remained a cheery, playful child and his laughter was often heard after having caused some mischief, followed by the scolding of his martial brother, who endearingly tried to uphold his image as sect heir, but also couldn’t help getting caught up in his shixiong’s schemes. Their little sect heir tried so hard to be proper and stern, always concerned about his image and the reputation he was giving his sect, but he was still a child. Something the townspeople often thought his parents would do well to remember.

Regardless, the day came when Qishan Wen decided that all the sects needed to send their heirs to indoctrination, and the people of Lotus Pier worried about the fate that awaited the children (really teenagers but to them they would always be kids).

Jiang Yanli worried most of all. So when their sect heir, Jiang Wanyin, returned to Lotus Pier, bedraggled and looking very much worse for the wear without Wei Wuxian, they feared the worst.

Yanli despaired when she heard A-Cheng’s story. A-Xian was with Second Young Master Lan in a cave, confined with a legendary beast of nightmares. Her father of course immediately gathered the disciples and had A-Cheng lead them back to the cave. Yanli would have preferred her little brother stay behind; he was exhausted and in terrible shape, but he was needed to lead them back to A-Xian and so she didn’t protest.

By some miracle, Wei Wuxian and Second Young Master Lan managed to kill the beast, but they were both severely injured and A-Xian was unconscious and feverish. She and A-Cheng took to sitting in his room, both worried about him and discussing the events of the past few weeks. Neither of them would leave A-Xian alone, they decided, through unspoken agreement...always there would be one or the other at his bedside. They had both been so afraid of losing him. She was so proud of both of her brothers, but she would always wish them to be safe and sound rather than heroic. What A-Cheng told her of what happened, on his end at least, was so incredibly dangerous and she just knew A-Xian that would most definitely end up downplaying the danger that he was in.

She was reading a book when she took another peek at the bed, only to see him blink awake and stare at his headboard.

She raised her head with a smile, “A-Xian!”

“Shijie!” he struggled to lift himself up and began shooting rapid fire questions at her, “I'm back? When did I come out of the cave? Did Uncle Jiang take people to rescue me? Where's Lan Zhan? Where's Jiang Cheng?”

“What are you shouting for?” said Jiang Cheng, as if he was summoned. “Sister, the soup that you boiled. I brought it over.”

It was telling that he brought only one bowl. This soup was for his shixiong. He didn’t intend to eat any himself even though he loved it as well. She smiled internally as she ladled a bowl for A-Xian and ignored their bickering. That was the way they showed they cared. Neither was good at expressing feelings to the other.

She reached over to wipe soup off A-Xian’s face as Father entered the room and she took away the bowl, not missing her father’s longing glance towards the pot. Too bad though, if A-Cheng could restrain himself, Father would have to as well.

Having left to go to the kitchen she missed the next part of the conversation, but she slipped back into the room just as A-Cheng was asking why A-Xian would let Second Young Master Lan take all the credit when they both killed the beast. Privately she agreed with him that it was unfair; she knew that A-Cheng was showing his concern that his brother wouldn’t get the credit he was due. Well in any case, they could give him credit.

“Well done,” Father praised.

“Congratulations,” said Jiang Cheng, staring at his shixiong with a mix of emotions. Yanli’s heart hurt at his tone. She could read her little brothers well. A-Cheng was really proud of A-Xian; he was glad that he was praised for his admittedly impressive deed, but at the same time their father hadn’t said a word to him about his part. No ‘well done’ was ever directed at him. Not even an ‘I’m glad you’re safe.’ True, he hadn’t killed a legendary beast, but he had helped evacuate all of the sect heirs from the cave and had struggled without a sword, without food or water for a whole week to get back to Lotus Pier to alert them to what happened. And without any real time to rest and recuperate he had immediately headed out with a delegation to find his shixiong.

Wei Ying might have helped kill the beast, but Jiang Cheng was the one who ensured that the rest of the sects even had heirs remaining alive to succeed them, the one that helped search the mountain and then helped to dig through all the stone blocking the cave entrance to save his shixiong (and Lan Wangji.) Nobody could have known that they would kill the beast. But despite thinking that the boys might be dead and that they would have to face the Xuanwu themselves when they finally managed to get into the cave, A-Cheng had gone with their cultivators to rescue them or bring back the bodies. He had gone into the cave not knowing if their brother still breathed, not knowing if there was even a body left to bring back, and not knowing if he’d be able to get out and escape the Xuanwu a second time even if there was.

A-Xian laughed, the kind where he was sure something was wrong and was trying to give the situation some levity, "What a pity that you weren't there as well. Or else, you'd be able to share some of that credit…..Lan Zhan…..boring….” He continued speaking but Yanli wasn’t hearing him. She was looking at the play of emotions on A-Cheng’s face and she could tell immediately that A-Xian had misunderstood.

Wei Ying tried his best to keep things light whenever he sensed that Jiang Cheng was upset, but often enough he didn’t know what he was upset about. A-Xian thought that he was feeling left out, but that wasn’t it. A-Cheng wasn’t simply jealous that he didn’t get a chance to kill the Xuanwu, he was upset that his shixiong could have died and he was upset that even after he almost died he was giving Second Young Master Lan all the credit and he was even more upset that their father did not seem to care at all that it was dangerous and was giving praise without concern (it was all Father talked about since they got back, how proud he was). He was also upset on his own behalf of course, but the jealousy he felt had nothing to do with wishing he could have helped kill the Xuanwu of Slaughter and more to do with his father’s effusive praise for just Wei Ying.

Instead of being able to say any of those things of course, her little brother just reverted to his usual means of coping with the tumultuous emotions roiling within him. Aka...he got angry and lashed out.

“It would have served you right to be bored to death,” he snapped, “You shouldn't have played the hero and you shouldn't have cared for such a hell of a thing. If in the beginning you didn't...”

Suddenly, Jiang Fengmian spoke, “Jiang Cheng.”

Jiang Cheng paused, knowing that he had said too much. He was quiet at once. Jiang Fengmian didn't look as if he was blaming him for anything, but his expression had turned from calm to more solemn, "Do you know in which ways what you just said is not appropriate?" A-Cheng's head hung low, "Yes."

Yanli was aching. A-Cheng shouldn’t have said it yes but his bigger mistake was saying it in front of Father.

A-Xian, knowing the way he and A-Cheng interacted was just their way, and knowing A-Cheng said things he didn’t mean when he was in a temper, tried to defend him, "He's just angry and speaking without care."

Jiang Cheng had a mulish look on his face because of course his father never understood him. He was always only seeing his flaws.

Seeing how Jiang Cheng's mouth and heart were still at odds, to his father he still appeared defiant. Jiang Fengmian shook his head, "A-Cheng, there are some things that can't be said even if you're angry. If you said them, it means that you still don't understand the motto of the Jiang Sect, that you still don 't... "

"Yes, he doesn't understand, but what does it matter, as long as Wei Ying understands?!" like a strike from Zidian, Mother swept inside with stinging words and bringing in with her a cold breeze, "'To attempt at the impossible' is exactly how he is, isn't it? Fooling around even though he knew that it'd bring trouble to his sect?!"

Father sighed, "My lady, what are you doing here?"

"What am I doing here? What a joke that I am asked such a thing! Sect Leader Jiang, do you still remember that I'm also the leader of Lotus Pier? Do you still remember that every inch of the earth here is my territory? Do you still remember, between the one lying there and the one standing here, which one is your son?"

Not this again. Yanli’s nerves felt frayed. Just why did they need to do this? A-Xian should be resting.

Such questions they had all heard countless times throughout the years and so he was no stranger to them. "Of course I do, " Father answered, sounding tired. Mother laughed bitterly, "You do remember, but there's no use if you simply remember. Wei Ying, he really can't take it unless he stirs up some trouble, can he? If I had known, I would've made him stay in Lotus Pier properly and not go outside. Could Wen Chao really have dared to do anything to the two young masters of the GusuLan Sect and the LanlingJin Sect?” Yanli was growing angry. How could mother blame A-Xian for the arrogance of the Wens? She wondered if mother had somehow forgotten what the Wens did to Cloud Recesses. Sect Leader Lan was dead! What did she mean if they would dare do anything to the young masters? Even sect leaders weren’t spared!

Oblivious to her daughter’s mounting frustration, Madam Yu continued,“Even if he did, it'd mean that they ran out of luck. Since when was it your turn to play the hero? I'm saying this right now. You can just wait. One day, he'll definitely get our sect into some big trouble! "

Luck! Did mother attribute the loss of life to simple luck? If they could go after Gusu and Lanling’s heirs that wouldn’t be them getting lucky. And did Mother think that Lotus Pier was so lucky then that if A-Xian didn’t go to the indoctrination that Lotus Pier would be spared if even the young masters of Gusu and Lanling ran out of luck? Who’s to say A-Cheng wouldn’t have been out of luck too? Would she be so blasé about it then if her own son was one of the young masters killed because he was out of luck?

Father stood up, clearly trying to avoid another argument,"Let's talk when we get back." Mother sneered, "Talk about what? Get back to where? I'll be talking about it right here. I have nothing to be ashamed of, anyways! Jiang Cheng, come over here."

A-Cheng looked torn. After a moment of hesitation, he moved to Mother's side. Holding his shoulders, Mother pushed him forward for Father to see and Yanli felt her face going red from the anger of her little brother once again being caught in the middle of their marital disputes.

"Sect Leader Jiang, it seems that some things I have to say. Look carefully—this is your own son, the future head of Lotus Pier. Even if you frown upon him just because I was the one who bore him, his surname is still Jiang! I don't believe for one second that you haven't heard of how the outside people gossip….”

A-Cheng’s face shuttered. He was steeling himself once again for the accusations that would inevitably be thrown out by mother and not denied by father.

Mother’s tirade continued, “They say that Sect Leader Jiang has still not moved on from a certain Sanren though so many years have passed, regarding the son of his old friend as a son of his own; they're speculating if Wei Ying is your... "

"Yu Ziyuan!" Father shouted, finally losing his temper.

"Jiang Fengmian!” Mother shouted back, “Do you think that anything will change just because you raised your voice?! Do you think that I don't know you?!”

A-Cheng looked like he would cry. That was the last straw for Yanli.

“ENOUGH!”

----------------------------------------------

A/N: I really wanted to just finish this story and post it as it is the first one I started in this fandom a long while ago... but some parts have been so difficult to write (*cough* JFM *cough*) and I'm kind of tired of it tbh so I'll post it in parts and hopefully edit it more at a later date. I hope some of you enjoy it at least.

I’m aware now that the phrase ‘attempt the impossible’ is not really… translated well from the actual Chinese meaning of the sect motto. However, I started writing this fic ages ago and in the English translation, ‘attempt the impossible’ is what we get and it’s what I’m working with. Take it as an AU where it does mean exactly what it says in the English translation 🤷‍♀️

This is of course once again a canon blend of the novel and CQL. The characters’ personalities are a mix of both.

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

From @ednamrenee 's comments that are way too wonderful and insightful to keep to the notes only and I'll try to go point by point with this since there is so much I agree to with this (excuse the messy thoughts as I go)

Lol, and I enjoy hearing the perspectives of those who have a harsher take on JC than me. 😂 I agree with you re: CQL, it definitely didn't seem to know where to put JC's character, which is a shame because he's a very interesting one. I don't mind if CQL-onlies want to that to that version, media consumption being a very personal experience and all that, but if I have to read one more interpretation like JC thought the life-debt between WQ and him was paid..

I do think that it's a detriment to the adaptions closer to the novel and the AU that CQL is to be so heavily tied together into the western fandom. Since they are so different from each other they really can't be compared to each other. The characters are not alike which lends to the very out of place interpretations that become so heavily popular.

...when he got her out of prison, I'm gonna go insane. Never mind that it's not what happened in novel canon (or even donghua canon, I don't remember about the manhua), never mind that it was an added scene to go forth with the one-sided JC/WQ thing, never mind that even if it had been canon, it in no way balances the life-debt JC owed the Wen siblings (and I'm not even considering the golden core transfer, we can't hold over him what he doesn't know).

In terms of the debt he owed even with the awkward romance they tried to make, if it was "payed back" it does not excuse him from essentially hiding that away and letting it be buried under the calls to exterminate all Wens. It does not erase the fact that they had helped, and he chose to just not expand upon this when their safety was at stake out of, I suppose, petty jealousy of Wei Wuxian (I really don't know what CQL was going for with his resentment towards Wei Wuxian since he'd had that since he was young. But, it also makes whatever love he did have for Wen Qing and Wei Wuxian so much more shallow then it was in the novel and starkly more cruel for a character they tried to humanize while keeping the novel points skewing the themes of Jiang Cheng as a character.

It just feels like a sorry understanding of life-debts and that's why culturally huge thing, so...no? Don't do that? It's fine having JC not pay much attention to the debts. It makes him interesting, it makes him coldly pragmatic over valuing even things that his own culture holds dear. It's a great trait, and even a good one for a leader maybe. I am up for JC deviating for the norm when it's about such virtues while WWX sticks to them, and JC wasn't exactly sneering...

Yes! This is Jiang Cheng as a character at his simplest and why I personally find him fascinating! He is pragmatic and cold to a fault that works well in the cultivation world MDZS set up, however, it doesn't work the same in CQL when you have the boogyman story of the Yin Iron as the root of all bad instead. The character actions no longer line up with the theme of the original work since so much emphasis is placed on a piece of metal ruining everything instead of the cruelty of humans alone.

...at the mo dao until it put him in a politically delicate situation. That's fine! Interesting character traits! But like. Fanon perception more often than not strips all of these from him and that's just unacceptable to me. I'm not even going to speak of the entire genocide thing, despite knowing about the innocence of the Wens and how they're just feeble old people and women and children.

The bleed over of CQL trying to make Jiang Cheng softer in his youth made headcanons with no true base for it in his behavior as an adult a lot more muddied. As an adult in any adaption, he's not really shown to have any positive sort of sentimentality towards Wei Wuxian. Certainly with Jin Ling in CQL it implied heavily that he did hit him just like Madam Yu to Wei Wuxian, where at least in the novel he was just... a very aggressively, unkind, cruel uncle that spoiled his nephew and gave in with that cycle of negative action over progressive action (The massive narrative mirror between how Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji raised a child left to them suddenly). He was not sorry for the hand he took in killing the Wens, he blamed them for taking his right hand man away and putting his sect, in what he thought, was unneeded trouble, morals be damned like his mother. Like she had said about Lan Wangji and Jin Zixuan, they stuck their head too high and they brought death upon themselves for talking back to a higher power for acting on their kindness over politics.

(Lol, this got long, sorry!) I absolutely agree that in terms of interpersonal relationships, Jin Ling is the only one with whom Jiang Cheng can begin to grow. The thing about the Yunmeng brothers is that whatever was between them is now tainted by bad blood (quite literally) on both sides, both of them have hurt each, knowingly or unknowingly. Both of them are a source for mental stress for each other, that's canon for any adaptation.

I understand the urge to want a rosier, I guess, take on this. I'm more used to the novel interpretations and neither ever really use the wording of being like family, or brothers, this was left to Jiang Yanli specifically calling Wei Wuxian her brother as the only Jiang to do that. The barrier of their social class is still a backbone of Jiang Cheng's possessiveness in thinking Wei Wuxian was his to order about as a sect leader twisting the innocent promise Wei Wuxian gave. But both don't associate anything positive with the other anymore. Wei Wuxian certainly isn't sentimental for Yunmeng Jiang as a home when he is resurrected or Jiang Cheng. He was planning to run off in the opposite direction of it to start as someone new! That does not read to me as pining or love anymore for the past (and I've written a piece before how CQL sanitized his longing of Lan Wangji solely by replacing it with Lotus Pier want and Jiang Yanli as a parental figure).

Can we not act like "ohh it's just miscommunication, they're both just dumb and horrible at feelings". It's not that simple. MXTX establishes this painstakingly, and just loving someone has never been the point. YZY loved JC too, she still managed to mess up his head. Love isn't the point, which sounds very hurtful I know, but it's also true. Reconciliation after all this bad blood takes a huge amount of emotional labour on both parts.

I can not reiterate enough that love was not the only thing needed between the Yunmeng siblings. None of them really ever understood each other and had different wants. Jiang Cheng never understood Wei Wuxian and his fascination of Lan Wangji out of discomfort. He did not accept whatever was going on there and later used it as shaming fodder. Both have done an unforgivable disservice to the other and really, nothing can mend old hurts as bad as they were. The kindest option is to leave each other alone and move on with a happier life for the self. The codependency of this is more than disturbing when used in reconciliation material especially for Wei Wuxian who was never that and is the one who actively asked for Jiang Cheng to move on, because he does not have the will to extend the effort of rebuilding a relationship anymore. It's a very human response to a broken relationship and not cruel, it just is a realistic view of a bad relationship that always ended for the worst when they tried to talk. Their own ideals are nothing alike and clash, they are not what the other needs and Wei Wuxian by the end of the novel is ready to leave it and move on with others without Jiang Cheng.

And, never apologize for long thoughts! I love it! This is why I very much enjoy interactions on here that are productive. Seriously I am a Jiang Cheng fan, I am just not into the gum drop sweetness for reconciliation. They are a disservice to him and his end that can better him without the crutch of Wei Wuxian there, which is exactly how his resentment spawned in the first place. He has a chance to do better by himself on his own terms, that doesn't need to be ruined with a codependent bond that had been forced and very one-sided in the end and remained as that for 13 years.

[moonwaif]

So I've been thinking about some CQL crossover ships for Xie Wang, and one of them is XieWang/Lan Xichen. Long post with headcanons under the cut.

Also, like. I guess all of these take place within a xianxia/cultivation universe? More high fantasy than the universe of SHL. And none of this is based on novel universe for either fandom--both are strictly SHL and CQL universes.

Xie Wang/Lan Xichen (aka Zewu-jun can have a murder boyfriend, as a treat.)

The Dynamic.

First off . . . there’s no age gap. Both of them are adults. I’m not sure how old either of them are exactly in their respective canons, but. I just want to make that clear.

Both have been deceived/manipulated by people they care about. Interpret it how you want to interpret it, but they gravely misunderstood one of the most important people in their lives and paid the price for it.

The, "No matter what you've done, I can't kill you" one is dating the "But I can!" one.

Also, like? Pipa and xiao jam sessions? Matching outfits? Sign me tf up.

The early stages.

I’m not sure how they would meet. Perhaps Xie Wang is on an undercover mission in Gusu. Meanwhile, Lan Xichen has finally left seclusion so that his brother can go on a honeymoon with the Yiling Laozu.

When Lan Xichen and Xie Wang meet, I think it would be nice for there to be instant attraction. This can be on a physical level, but also on an intellectual level. They both have silver tongues, are intuitive, and are excellent communicators. I think these two kings would recognize that in one another just after one interaction.

However, they don’t trust each other. Xie Wang is probably operating under some kind of alias. Lan Xichen is more guarded now. I’m sure he still wants to believe the best of people, but life has scarred him. He feels like Xie Wang may be hiding something. Xie Wang, meanwhile, thinks Lan Xichen is just “too good to be true.” Someone with such a peerless reputation must be corrupt on the inside. I mean, just look at the Venerated Triad and how they ended up. Could the only surviving sworn brother really be THAT good?

But as time goes on, they see more sides of each other. It gets harder and harder to believe the worst about the other person. Xie Wang probably falls first, and falls hard. He likes Lan Xichen’s balanced outlook on life, his willingness to overlook rumor and reputation and make his own judgments on a person’s character. In an unguarded moment, Lan Xichen might imply that this has been one of his flaws or weaknesses in the past. Xie Wang just smiles at him and says it’s a strength. (Lan Xichen’s heart flutters, but so what? He doesn’t feel like he can trust his heart yet.)

Anyway, back to Xie Wang. He is impressed by Lan Xichen’s acceptance of Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian--particularly considering Wei Wuxian’s less than pristine background. I think there is a lot of good material here for some intimate conversations in which Xie Wang asks Lan Xichen about his opinion of Wei Wuxian, but he’s not actually talking abou Wei Wuxian--he’s really asking about himself.

The ordeal of being Known.

Nevertheless, Xie Wang doesn’t completely trust Lan Xichen yet, and he’s terrified of what will happen when Lan Xichen finds out who he is, but . . . Xie Wang still cares about him. He enjoys Lan Xichen’s company. He craves Lan Xichen’s praise and attention, and resents anyone who tries to steal it away. He wants their time together to last as long as possible. And inevitably, he wants to do whatever he can to help Lan Xichen succeed in his goals. Which, to Xie Wang’s surprise, have less to do with personal gain and more to do with making a positive impact on the cultivation world. As more time passes, it gets harder and harder for Xie Wang to play it cool and hold his cards to his chest.

Lan Xichen is touched by Xie Wang’s earnesty, enthusiasm and loyalty. It softens his heart. He finds himself growing fond of Xie Wang’s company, looking forward to his visits, indulging in conversations about music and art and calligraphy and politics. At the same time, he witnesses instances of violence and cruelty from Xie Wang that disturb him. It reminds him of Jin Guanyao--the red flags that in the past Lan Xichen either rationalized or ignored. It puts Lan Xichen in this awkward position of growing closer to Xie Wang, opening up to him, only to pull back suddenly. Rinse, wash, repeat.

Xie Wang, of course, doesn’t really know what’s going on in Lan Xichen’s head. Fortunately, he’s perceptive. As he does more digging into Lan Xichen’s past, he probably puts two and two together and realizes that Lan Xichen is trying to protect his own heart. However, he’ll also wonder if Lan Xichen knows more than he’s letting on--if he is perhaps aware of Xie Wang’s true identity, and that’s why he won’t open up to him. Or perhaps it’s just Xie Wang’s personal flaws. He’s always been too impulsive, too selfish, too distracting. Someone of Lan Xichen’s calibre may find these characteristics distasteful.

I actually think Lan Xichen may put the pieces together and begin to suspect Xie Wang’s true identity. If Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian are around, they would probably do the same and accelerate this realization. However, I am not sure that Lan Xichen would act immediately on it. He may instead try to give Xie Wang opportunities to come forward with the truth on his own.

Xie Wang will dodge all of these opportunities like “lol nope.”

Cat’s out of the bag.

Anyway, after lots of like. Cute moments, and moments of camaraderie, and moments of yearning and angst, things finally come to a head. Perhaps Lan Xichen finds himself caught up in a scheme that involves the Scorpion and a rival group. Xie Wang ends up having to take Lan Xichen captive in order to protect him. In this moment, Lan Xichen is able to see another side of Xie Wang--one that he’s only caught glimpses of before. Xie Wang is cold, domineering, calculating, and cruel. It’s sexy but also terrifying. Lan Xichen hardens his own expression and is quite distant to Xie Wang, which of course just breaks Xie Wang’s heart. But Xie Wang can’t show it just yet, not while they are still surrounded by onlookers. It wouldn’t be wise to reveal any weaknesses to those who are constantly at the ready to take advantage of any vulnerable bits.

As soon as Xie Wang can find a moment to be alone with Lan Xichen (truly alone, with no spies or eavesdroppers), he would sit down and speak honestly with him. He tells Lan Xichen that he harbors no ill intentions towards him or the Lan sect (or perhaps he does, at least with concern to the latter--it’s up to how complicated you imagine this kind of AU). And against his better judgment, the more Lan Xichen hears . . . the more he finds himself believing Xie Wang. In fact, he’s relieved that they can finally reach this point of honesty with each other.

Lan Xichen is terrified he’s making a mistake, but . . . he wants to believe Xie Wang. He wants to believe him so, so badly. After some difficult conversations and lots of promises exchanged between them, Lan Xichen relents.

Xie Wang is just absolutely delighted to the point of tears. All of his softness and sweetness comes back.

From this point on, I think we can see a power couple at work. Both of them are intuitive, intelligent and nuanced. They can work together to solve whatever scheme is happening. Collaborating brings them closer, honestly.

Xie Wang is reluctant to let Lan Xichen go, but does so. (He’s mostly worried about Lan Xichen’s safety.)

(If you want to make things really painful, you could have Lan Xichen temporarily reject Xie Wang. This would probably be motivated by Lan Xichen’s past experiences, when he continued to support and defend Jin Guangyao despite all evidence to the contrary. Terrified of making the same mistake--of letting people he cares about become hurt because of a temporary lack of judgment--might actually lead him to betray Xie Wang and reveal his true identity to the Lan clan. This would lead to a temporary and very angsty “break up” arc. The irony could be that Lan Xichen actually regrets NOT trusting Xie Wang or supporting him down the road. I would like to see something like this culminate in Xie Wang being injured/narrowly escaping a dangerous confrontation with an enemy, and Lan Xichen rescuing him, holding him close, and whispering, “I’m sorry.” GOD Xie Wang would just fall apart. The hurt/comfort potential. My word.)

Hurt/comfort potential.

At some point, Xie Wang might be injured or suffer some kind of loss. Perhaps he went after someone who was a threat to Lan Xichen in some way, and got himself in a pickle. He makes it out, but is the worse for wear. Lan Xichen, who is normally so polite and intentional with his words, finds himself losing his temper. How could Xie Wang make such a rash decision? Isn’t he supposed to be the Scorpion King for a reason?

These words push Xie Wang over the edge. He snaps back that yes, he knows he’s reckless--that he’s too impulsive--too demanding--that he’s always letting his emotions get the best of him, again and again. But he was scared for Lan Xichen. What was he supposed to do, just sit back and bear it?

Lan Xichen’s anger dissipates. He consoles Xie Wang, tells him that he’s not any of those things. Xie Wang is shocked speechless. He’s even more shocked when Lan Xichen admits he was wrong for speaking harshly and asks for Xie Wang’s forgiveness. “It was only that seeing you in this state unnerved me. I would not want any harm to come to you on my account. I’m sorry.”

Xie Wang melts.

Xie Wang drinks vinegar.

Being together means that Xie Wang and Lan Xichen are more intimate. They are moving physically closer, becoming more familiar with one another’s spaces. Xie Wang is very greedy for this closeness, and probably starts to become a little possessive about the things in Lan Xichen’s room. Keeping things tidy, adding decorations, sorting through things, etc.

Anyway, one day he comes across Jin Guangya’s hat by accident.

“Gege :+) who’s hat is this? :+)”

He begins to engage in a recurring fantasy where he slices the hat to pieces.

It’s just that, well. Xie Wang is intensely jealous of Jin Guangyao’s hat. He is intensely jealous of Jin Guangyao’s memory. Just hearing his name is enough to make Xie Wang lose it a little on the inside, like, “Not this b**** again.” But on the outside he is very calm.

Most of the time.

Look. It’s already hard enough knowing that someone like Xie Wang, the leader of a shady group of assassins, will probably never be accepted as a suitable partner for Lan Xichen. And this isn’t the first time something like this has happened. He’s been used before by Zhao Jing, the person who was supposed to be his yifu, the person who kept Xie Wang in the dark and only brought him into the light when it was useful. So Xie Wang can’t help but feel nervous that Lan Xichen will just want to keep him in the dark, too. Like logically, he knows Lan Xichen wouldn’t do that. Lan Xichen is a better person than that, he wouldn’t take advantage of anyone in that way, especially not Xie Wang! Lan Xichen cares about Xie Wang! But Xie Wang also knows he’s miscalculated in the past. He can’t help the nugget of uncertainty that weasels its way in.

You can play this up as angsty if you want, or you can play it for comedy. Maybe Lan Xichen receives a gift from a potential suitor. Xie Wang sees it and asks who it’s from. On his best day, he smiles calmly and says something like, “How elegant and thoughtful. I know just the place to put this.” (That place is the trash.) On his worst day, he wines and says, “How tacky! Gege, why do you continue to even meet with that old cow?”

Lan Xichen is exceptionally understanding and patient, although he does need to set some firm boundaries from time to time.

Jin Guangyao causes drama from beyond the grave.

Eventually Xie Wang is going to have a very off-day. And on this off-day, he talks about a topic that he should definitely have avoided, which is Jin Guangyao.

Basically, Xie Wang is not going to understand why Lan Xichen feels guilty for what happened to Jin Guangyao. Or rather, he does not believe that Lan Xichen SHOULD feel guilty. And he tells Lan Xichen this, very insistently. Lan Xichen, who has been coping through the good ole Lan technique of Repress And Don’t Express, becomes frustrated. His frustration builds when Xie Wang basically says that no matter what Jin Guangyao may have suffered, he shouldn’t have betrayed Lan Xichen--that Jin Guangyao even deserves what happened to him (and perhaps Xie Wang believes this last part, or perhaps he’s just being petty--it’s up to you). Lan Xichen almost loses his temper--almost. But then he just. Shuts down, completely. Like very coldly and calmly says something to the effect of, “I expected you of all people to understand me. I see I was mistaken. Excuse me.” And just. Leaves.

Xie Wang is a MESS. Honestly he would have preferred being yelled at. This calm reaction is disconcerting and makes him worry that he’s lost Lan Xichen for good. He’s also shocked at himself for being so purposefully wilful and obstinate. He was trying to be good!!

Making up.

Instead of pulling away, Xie Wang waits an appropriate amount of time for things to settle (lmao like 12 hours), then shows right back up acting like nothing ever happened. He’s very talkative and sweet, chatting peacefully about unrelated topics. He probably flits about the room, straightening this and that, then perches beside Lan Xichen. His heart sinks when he sees Lan Xichen’s expression.

Xie Wangs cautiously begins speaking. “About yesterday . . . I shouldn’t have contradicted you. I was being difficult and impetuous. Gege, please forgive me.”

And like, what is Lan Xichen supposed to do with that? Say “no”? Lmao.

Fortunately, Lan Xichen has taken some time to self-reflect. He’s a bit dismayed that he continues to act out of character with Xie Wang. Normally, he is so good at maintaining his composure. With Xie Wang, however, he continues to get caught up in his own feelings until he fumbles.

Anyway, Lan Xichen actually takes this opportunity to reflect and open up to Xie Wang about his friendship with Jin Guangyao. He tells him about what happened between him and his sworn brothers, where he believes he made mistakes, how he wishes things would have worked out differently. He also says that he sees it as a weakness of his own that even now, he isn’t able to completely blame Jin Guangyao. It’s not like this is Xie Wang’s first time hearing about any of this, but it IS his first time hearing the information directly from Lan Xichen.

Xie Wang takes his hand and says that kind of loyalty and kindness is what makes Lan Xichen dear to him, and is its own type of wisdom. Lan Xichen doesn’t completely agree with this assessment, but he doesn’t argue against it, either. He merely asks Xie Wang if there is anything else he’d like to know.

Xie Wang is a bit hesitant. Without meeting Lan Xichen’s gaze, he observes that Jin Guangyao and Lan Xichen were very close. He wants to know what place Jin Guangyao still occupies in Lan Xichen’s heart.

To be continued . . .

(Lol I ran out of steam for a minute)