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masterchef901 · 11 months

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We're weird here, right? Yeah? Good. Let me tell you about the fucking MAGICAL narrative journey that is the CoD Zombies story. It's weird, it's jank as hell, and by the end it has me thinking seriously on the implicit meta-narrative to it. Also, the story ends like 4 separate times.

So we begin with CoD: World at War.

"Nazi Zombies", a minigame unlocked by beating the main story, where you get to feel more justified in sinking lead into a horde than possibly anywhere else in gaming, or life for that matter. Over the course of the original maps, the devs see positive fan response and put a little effort into it. We get perks, fancy technomagic laser guns and wonder-weapons, and even some characters and lore.

That lore, by the way, is "The nazis were experimenting on mysterious rocks that turned out to turn people into zombies. Then the zombies broke out. The end." Our heroes, meanwhile, are all simple as hell. A Japanese honor-obsessed samurai, a German mad scientist, a Russian whose only desire in life is vodka, and an ultra-macho rambo-esque American with an IQ only marginally higher than that of the zombies they'll be working together to slaughter. Basically, all stereotypes, but played for that over-the-top sort of comedy enough that I'll be generous and call them 'caricatures' instead. This group would eventually come to be called "Ultimis".

Call of Duty: Black Ops

Back by popular demand, is the Zombies mode, now no longer exclusive to the nazi brand of zombie, because the story's going international. This time, our heroes are going on a tour of WWII-era conspiracy theories. Ancient Vril mysticism, Shangri-La, nazi moon bases - basically the plot of Iron Sky 2. Simple, except not really, but definitely absurd in a fun, goofy way. Notably, the loading screens and advertising also framed these maps in a sort of "comic book"-y way, to help us understand the level of narrative consistency and complexity we'd be seeing here.

(Before continuing, by the way, we also have the absolute TREAT that is the map "Five". Seriously, go watch its opening cutscene, and then imagine those characters being your friendly voices for the duration of the game)

The critical thing here is that, while WaW had some "easter eggs", they were just cute little bits and bobs. "Interact with some rocks hidden around the map, play a song", stuff like that. But Black Ops easter eggs were something else entirely. Trying to explain these feels like explaining the conspiracy theories that inspired the maps. "Go stand on the floor panels to enter Eclipse mode. Then find the four wall-dials and set them to specific values. Now use the shrink ray on a specific rock, which you must then shoot around the map until it lands on the temple." Stuff like that. And even though nobody realized it until the end, they were all connected - if you do all the easter eggs leading up to it, then the Moon egg culminates in the mad scientist character taking over the zombie horde. And then you blow up the Earth.

That's right, they decide to just go flying beyond all chance of imagining this stuff was happening on the fringes of history, it was all-along the story of an apocalypse enacted by a mad scientist and his rival engineering events against him. The End. This was the BIG moment that grabbed the attention and imagination of me and others as a kid. It took Zombies from "neat" to "COOL", and, for better and worse, secured this storyline and style as the "zombies breadwinner" for several games to come.

Side note: I don't recall exactly when they did this, but at some point Treyarch's writers realized that it's maybe a bad look to have one of the playable characters be "'German scientist who helped create the Nazi Zombies", on account of, y'know, the fact that that makes him a nazi. So at some point they did that thing where they "soft-retcon" in some audio clarifying that actually while he was always a psychopath, he was only ever in it For The Science (tm) and it was actually his rival Dr. Maxis who signed his research team on with the reich.

I'm not sure if there's a term for this sort of the thing - when writers don't really retcon in the sense of overwriting previously established facts, but use "reveals" to try and overwrite the meaning of those previously established facts. Yes, technically that's what all good reveals do, but it's also obvious in times like these that there used to be a clear understanding of the lore on both the authors' and audience's parts, which the author has since decided they don't like and want to redo. "Oops, that previous evidence/event didn't count because of contrived circumstances you knew nothing about and could not possibly have guessed."

If I sound like I'm going off on a tangent, I want to be clear - firstly, this sort of practice always frustrates me, because it makes it clear that the author is readily willing to "cheat" in the game that is the communication of a narrative, and secondly because that's secretly what this whole mega-ramble is actually about.

Black Ops 2: We Care About The Lore Now

So, Treyarch wanted to do more Zombies, and they liked the vibe they had so far, so they decide to stay in the storyline that exploded earth. The characters - now a farm girl, a nerd, a hobo, and a schizophrenic guy, all American, all came off more annoying than the "comedic" take Treyarch wanted. This group would be dubbed "Victis", and not only were these characters poorly received, but the story itself would feel aimless. How do you one-up a grand master scheme and the apocalypse? What are our survivors even doing? Treyarch has our old mad scientist and his rival acting as voices in the Victis gang's collective head to try and vie for control of the zombies, and this story would ultimately culminate in one of them (based on player choices involving arcane steps punctuated by some oddly sexual ones) winning the power struggle, and either way, some type of "the world ends again", either with the mad scientist turning the world into his plaything, or (the canon ending) the rival scientist enacting some weird arcane collapse that will let him be with his daughter. Either way, we don't revisit this world again.

I specify world because the characters will return, and even in the same game, actually.

But first - in the middle of the Victis plotline we take a brief visit to Alcatraz for an unexpectedly great zombies experience that's entirely disconnected from either of the plotlines so far. I bring this up only for completeness sake, and for a point that'll hopefully become clearer later.

Anyway, we now return to our regularly scheduled zombie programming - by which I mean, a whole new experience, Origins, featuring "modernized", more tasteful renditions of our original Ultimis team. We're introduced now to a strong-but-disciplined American soldier, a now safely WWI-era not-quite-mad German Scientist, a world-weary Russian who uses alcohol to tastefully take the edge off, and a Japanese samurai warrior who's struggling with the decaying traditional idea of "honor" in a World-War 1 setting.

This "new" (yet chronologically older) variant of the team would be dubbed "Primis".

And this time the plot has them freeing the spirit of a young girl, Samantha, daughter of Science Rival Guy Dr. Maxis who we'd just seen end the world (twice) from some weird arcane trap on the battlefield "of the Great War" so she can go to a mysterious place called "Agartha". Also, the ending cutscene shows her and "Eddie" (who appears to be a child version of our playable german scientist) to be playing with dolls and action figures of the zombies and the playable characters - implying that in fact our whole storyline thus far was "just a game", and the shift of control over the zombie hordes in the first game to Edward Richtofen was in fact just "Eddie" taking his turn playing as the zombies.

It's easy to forget for those of us who've kept up with the story since this, but I cannot overstate how confusing this entire situation was to resolve from a lore perspective. Options were:

1: As implied in the cutscene, acktually "it was all just a game". The lore that players had worked hard to uncover was all, within its own canon, a game being played by children. This was wildly unpopular, but also quite possibly the authors' intended interpretation because in a very real sense, it all WAS a game, and the lore mostly WAS made-up by players out of scraps of lore they'd found.

2: Our four protagonists had acktually all met for the first time in WWI, then again incidentally wound up together again after un-developing as characters due to Magic Rock Exposure (tm) in WWII. Somehow the little girl freed in Origins and her dad whose brain got put in a drone during that process both get put back into their bodies, I guess.

3: It's all a parallel universe with its own separate continuity; the little girl and Eddie believe they're just playing games with toys when in reality they've been shipped off to copyright-safe-Heaven and "games with toys" is how they cope with the trauma of their zombie-filled lives.

BLACK OPS 3: MORE

So, Treyarch picks option 3. Makes sense, it keeps us gamers feeling like our investment was in something worthwhile and not arbitrarily patched together, while also allowing them some more narrative liberty. Easy, right?

WRONG

Rather than just roll with "We're doing zombies again in a newer, cleaner universe", they have to tie everything up ALL together. Our new plotline is that ACTHSDHALY the zombie-rocks came from a bunch of eldritch tentacle-creatures called Apothicons from super-hell. We meet Dr. Monty, who's basically like if Willy Wonka was actually secretly God who's trying to get the kids safe and sound up in heaven and the now eldritch-based zombies sealed back away.

We follow Team Primis as they go back into our first universe to harvest the souls of Team Ultimis (so, their own original souls) which will somehow allow them to go to I-can't-believe-it's-not-Heaven too. They go there, shit accidentally goes wrong when eldritch-satan breaks out, but the gang beats him up with guns and Monty is able to re-establish his perfect world.

Except, uh, he tried to delete the Primis crew while he was it it, but don't worry, that random moment in Alcatraz earlier was act[coughing fit]ally super-duper important and drinking the blood of those prisoners let out heroes survive! BUT ACTASKFHALY THIS WAS MONTY'S PLAN ALL ALONG and he teleports them back in time to fight in-

oh right so "the great war" from origins wasn't in reference to WWI, it was

actually

the site of The Great War between humanity and the apothicons, and Monty time-travels the crew back then to be the heroes of legend that set up Origins to happen, creating a time loop. Characters are, this whole time, saying "the paradox must be resolved" without ever explaining what it is.

But yeah anyway the whole ride this game leads to a big "it was all a time loop" cycle deal, and also the tone has slowly shifted from BO1 comic-style to something that feels more like an "Avengers"-style quiptacular with MORE budget, MORE stakes, MORE lore that actually isn't a good thing because the more lore they pile on the more twisted and absurd the story has to get and also it occurs to me that "going avengers" actually is kinda the natural conclusion to "being like comic books".

BLACK OPS 4: BUT WAIT THERE'S FOUR

So at this point, Treyarch and Activision in general are spending more focus on trying to figure out a new angle to Zombies, but nothing takes off. Infinity Ward's "Zombies in Spaceland" was a whiff, Cod:WW2's "reboot" of Nazi Zombies didn't stick, and their new "Chaos" storyline featuring mixed-religious lore was also met with lukewarm-to-poor response (sidenote here: now that we're in a proper era where it's common practice to ask "What if Ra punched Odin in the face while Ares watches" we really should establish a term for it, like "Mixed-Religious Combat" following the form of "Mixed Martial Arts).

SO They felt some pressure to go back once more to the cash cow what is their absolute mess of an "original" zombies story, now termed the "Aether" arc. They don't have many maps left to develop this but that doesn't stop them from opening the story again, and this time the writers have fucking HAD IT with this story so they decide it's time to fucking END it.

Here's your finale: Victis crew (the all-american team nobody liked) are back, slightly better written this time, on the map that had gone the longest without a remake (notably, in keeping with modern media practice, every zombies map from from the Ultimis-Primis plotline had been remade at least once by now), and they make a macguffin.

Then Primis Nikolai (the russian guy) uses it to wish a new, zombie-free universe into existence and sends the kids away into it.

Also he poisons and kills all of Ultimis and Primis. Then has the kids shoot him. THE ADULTS ARE ALL DEAD NOW AND THEY GOT BANISHED TO SUPERHELL WITH THEIR MULTIVERSE THE END. Nikolai gives us some lore mumbo jumbo about how the arcano-babble and the eldritch-babble had done some techno-babble that "bound the team's destiny forever to the apothicon menace", so that the only way a universe could ever be free of zombies would be for him and his friends to all die.

And the thing is, he's right. Because if you've followed this far, you're probably seeing a pattern: People like these characters, even in their worst-written moments, and Activision isn't going to just let that go unmilked. As long as there is any possible way for these characters to return, they'll be brought back and the lore is going to be held and gunpoint and forced to cook up a reason for them to be there shooting zombies. So the only possible way to let this tortured, tangled mess of a plot finally reach an actual ending is to kill its protagonists - and not just kill them, but write them off so conclusively that there's no chance of resurrection, no more alternate universes containing them, NOTHING. THEY ARE GONE. And true to the Homestuck-ass law that was inspired by this exact effect, the only way death can stick from a narrative sense is if everyone's death is either a Just end or a Heroic sacrifice to nobly ensure a better life For the Kids.

Samantha and Eddie (at this point nobody asks why Eddie even exists or what timeline these kids are from) are finally safe. The end.

COD COLD WAR THE STORY KEEPS GOING

As if to prove my point, Cold War Zombies picks up with a new set of protagonists... and an easter egg featuring the return of Samantha, now slightly more grown up, I guess, and also with superpowers? And then she flies around a bit, before finally heroically sacrificing herself out of the story for good. Eddie - now a full adult Edward Richtofen once more - is a "big reveal" in a cutscene afterwards, confirming that, in fact, there will be no peace fucking ever until every last character from this beautiful, twisted plot is gone.

EPILOGUE

And I want to be clear, it is beautiful. I wouldn't have followed it this far or spent two hours learning just how much I have to type about it if I didn't love every second of it, especially the seconds spent hating on it. I could, and probably eventually will write another essay at some point on how fucking much I love jank-ass "broken" things like this.

But for now, I hope y'all see my points here. It's this weird case you see happen every now and then where people just fall in love with their characters, and won't ever let go. Certainly doesn't help that the authors of those characters can't figure out how to write anyone else decently, but this is just one of many franchises I've seen where the unwillingness to let go of a fan-favorite leaves the plot tied in knots as it constantly has to try and present a NEW BIGGEST THREAT EVER that becomes a BIG DRAMATIC CONCLUSIVE FINALE that then needs even bigger contrivances to bring the favorites back.

It's done a fucking number on Halo's story, which is impressive because a lot of halo's core fans never even really consider that it has one. It's hard for me to talk about Halo here without thinking to myself "STOP TALKING ABOUT JOHN"

Same deal with Marvel, same with Homestuck, same deal in a lot of cases that I'm sure you're aware of too.

So as my closing thought and my reward to you for reading this far, here's some homework! What the fuck do you call these problems? What do you call it when lore starts to go sour because it's spent too long being about the same thing? What do you call it when fan demand forces writers to rethink their endings repeatedly? What do you call it when writers "cheat" their way around prior writing, re-contextualizing everything so much that it's hard to actually believe anything they say anymore and we're just left to sigh and feel odd relief when they say "Somehow Palpatine has returned" without further explanation because at least that means ONLY the ending of the original trilogy has its weight retroactively worsened?

#zombies #cod #call of duty #narrative analysis #overanalysis #idk #rule #i guess #ramble #rambles #E #this became about #media #like media in general I guess #thank you for reading

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cuppa-ale · 3 years

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THANK YOU for reading! (more under the cut)

Start | Previous | END

Text:

Page 19

*LEVEL DOWN*

SwaySway: Good boy.

*GRAB* *MUNCH*

Buhdeuce: Ya know, he isn't so bad after all.

Page 20

Bread Maker: I'm back! Wolfy didn't cause you any trouble, did he?

Buhdeuce: Oh no, HE didn't cause any trouble...

Bread Maker: I take it you had things under control?

SwaySway: Yep, nothing much happened here! Haha....

Buhdeuce: But hanging with Wolfy was fun!

Bread Maker: Why do I smell burnt toast...?

SwaySway: I never want to see bread like that ever again.

Buhdeuce: Agreed.

----------------------------------------------------

I've never drawn so much bread in my LIFE... lol. Again, sorry if the ending is a bit abrupt. This comic was originally going to be 16 pages long, but I wanted to extend some of the action scenes and added an additional page towards the end.

I started this comic in 2016 with the goal of proving to myself that I could actually finish a comic... and then kept dropping it for extended periods, lol. It felt important for me to finally finish it this year, especially as my interest in making comics has grown.

I did feel kind of insecure about the story and whether I did it "justice", and that anxiety held me back a bit. But I also realized that I could never know unless I just put it out there. So I welcome any feedback and even constructive criticism you may have, lol.

Doing this has taught me some things, I think, about what kind of writing process works for me, and what I do and don't want to do with future comics. (that aren't about Breadwinners.)

All the dialogue is pretty much the same, but I added some additional things as I mentioned that weren't "scripted" and it made the story flow a lot better for me than trying to stick to a rigid plan. I still have more to learn and experiment with finding a way to plan comics that works for me though.

I based this a lot on the official comics, and was trying to make this as if it were actually one of them, sort of.

Anyway. Enough of that, lol. I hope you enjoyed! Even though it took forever, I enjoyed working on it, and being able to share it with whatever "breadheads" are left even more!

P.S.: Happy Halloween everyone!!! 🎃 🎃 🎃

#breadwinners #breadwinners fan comic #the vault of misfit loaves #my art #scheduled post

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mariocki · 2 years

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Top five Old Telly shows!

Oof straight in with a devilishly hard one... in no particular order i guess...

1. Doctor Who - the OG gateway into the wider world of old tv for me (and, i suspect, for a majority of old tv fans). I don't think there's another show that spans such a long time, evolves so much, and yet remains clearly one cohesive programme (and is so consistently brilliant!).

2. Public Eye - my introduction to the other type of old tv: small stories, low stakes, dialogue-heavy but naturally quiet and reflective. The sober, hangdog answer to action heavy adventure tv.

3. The Power Game - who knew concrete could be so exciting?! Performance led drama with some of the sharpest, most venomous scripts in old tv.

4. Callan - always fascinating, often emotionally battering, anchored by one of the greatest lead performances in tv history. All the leads are brilliant, but Woodward absolutely inhabits Callan and makes him live.

5. Blake's 7 - DW's older, anarchist brother; as often devastating as it is thrilling, beautifully played by an ensemble cast. Innovative, original, and able to flip between darkly comic and gut-wrenching horror within the same scene.

To steal your own caveat @thisbluespirit these are my today choices... on any other day I might have to shuffle around to accommodate The Brothers, The Main Chance, Mr. Rose, Big Breadwinner Hog, The Avengers, Strangers, The Sandbaggers, The Beiderbecke Affair, etc etc etc etc........

#ask meme #top 5 #classic tv #doctor who #classic doctor who #callan #blake's 7 #public eye #the power game

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whoiszid · 2 years

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Hey Zid, I am a big fan of yours and rates your art as one of the greatest ever in history. The sort of realism you bring to the whole thing is extraordinary. I am 37 years old, with a family and job and I hate my job. I am hopeful that I can still be a comic artist. Could you give me a suggestion how did you motivate yourself to continue what you loved, when you were not famous and when you were not working with Legendary?

I don't believe that I'm ever famous even now. Nothing has changed except having a publisher who believes in my work and have been the best people to work with for almost a decade now. Other than that, I'm still a nobody in this industry. In my youth, I used to have existential crises with self-worth and my reason to create, but since becoming a breadwinner my main motivation is livelihood. If I don't work, I won't be able to provide for my family. Thankfully I've never had any day that I don't feel like it. Every day I'm always working hard to improve myself. However, come to think of it, I may be operating on a carrot and a stick - I want to write and draw my own comic from my own concept art as the endgame, so that definitely pushes me to do my best at work so that I have enough savings to do my own thing... Hopefully, before I leave this life.

#answers #2022 #questions

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antiloreolympus · 3 years

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4 Anti LO Asks

1. i know this isnt how its supposed to be read but the way lo hades treats persephone and how lo persephone goes to him for security/protection really reads more like him parenting her like the child he cant have and her treating him like the father/parental figure she didnt grow up with. i know this isnt how youre supposed to read it, especially because it makes them being randomly horny for each other even worse, but that's how i see it.

2. This was my immediate thought after reading the latest fp:

Why is she so pressed about this? They had an affair in the past but rn he loves her (Persephone). Does she only have self worth when she's either horny or angry?🙄. She wasn't worried the last time she saw Minthe and figured her relationship with Hades is solid but now all of a sudden she's comparing herself to Hera?!?!?

3. that post you reblogged about sexual trauma brought up a lot of good points, and it's so true the comic has such a weird ideology around sex. it wants to be pro sexuality, yet shames women who partake in casual sex and women who dont want sex, yet also says women who are virgins are pure and good, but then also they're regressive for it and are having sex anyway, and how being horny is good as long as its for hades, but no one else. it flips flops depending on RS's mood that day.

4. i think whats also weird about lo is rachel and her fans 100% claim its this huge, subversive story against the ~social norms~ like yes, two abled bodied, cisgendered rich people in a heterosexual relationship where the man is the powerful breadwinner with his trophy wife who are colored like a gender reveal party is SO subversive and against what is in 99% of media. if they made it MLM or WLW that'd be more groundbreaking than whatever LO is currently.

#anti lo #anti lore olympus #lo critical #lore olympus critical

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xandri-art · 2 years

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My summary of art for 2021

I feel like I drew less this year than any other, but when I look back, I still managed to do some things here and there. My drawing kinda fell off in June, at least stuff that I posted publicly. I did many private things like studies, gifts and commissions.

One big point for me was finally finishing and posting my Breadwinners fan comic in October. I had actually started working on it again in April, and I think it showed me how I'd want to approach future comics, especially as my interest in doing comics has grown. I'm just so glad that I could get that done and share it.

It always feels like there's so much I want to do and like my hands can't keep up with my brain, and my "creative side" has to contend with the side of me that hates myself deeply and gets discouraged easily, or just feels too uncomfortable in my mind and body to sit down and do anything.

I don't really know what I am at all, but I want to think there's some freedom in that.

I'm not sure what's going to happen next year. But I feel very thankful to have the few friends that I do, and I'll hope to see you all on the other side. ✌️ I wish everyone peace of mind, peace of heart and a burst of creative energy in the new year.

2016 / 2017 / 2018 / 2019 / 2020

#i feel kinda enthusiastic for some reason #I hope that feeling perseveres #art summary #art summary 2021 #2021 #Xandri Art #Xandri Speaks #scheduled post

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dropintomanga · 3 years

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Demon Slayer and My Hero Academia - 2 Sides of the Same Coin?

Whenever you hear about Koyoharu Gotoge’s Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba, you tend to hear about the records the series has smashed in Japan since the anime adaptation aired. From taking over entire top 20 Oricon manga charts to being one of Japan’s most highly grossed movies ever to influencing political campaigns, Demon Slayer is a once-in-a-lifetime hit that captivated an entire nation. (Oh, and Gotoge is the 1st mangaka ever selected for the Time 100 Next list)

However, outside of Japan, Demon Slayer isn’t as popular as one of its other Shonen Jump brethren, Kohei Horikoshi’s My Hero Academia. Demon Slayer still sells well and fans love the series over here in The United States, but manga sales charts are filled with more My Hero Academia volumes than Demon Slayer volumes.

I’ve been thinking about both series’ popularity in the context of the East versus West dynamic.

As cultural experts will tell you, Western principles are built on a sense of individualism. You deserve the freedom to choose your own path. You can make it on your own. No one should get in the way of what you want. Eastern principles are all about collectivism. Make sacrifices for the prosperity of the group. Don’t do anything that hurts other people around you. The world doesn’t revolve around you.

When I think about My Hero Academia, it makes sense that Western fans love it a bit/lot more than Demon Slayer. We all want to be heroes of our story. We want to be more than who we are. It’s about youth who are focusing on their own growth and getting away from their comfort zones to find new opportunities to become stronger.

Demon Slayer isn’t about being a hero. It’s about a guy who wanted to make his demon sister human again. He’s not interested in being the absolute best to save the world. While saving Japan ends up being a consequence of his actions, family is what’s important to main lead Tanjiro Kamado. Also, superheroes aren’t nearly as popular in Japan compared to here (with the exception of Spider-Man).

There was a book I read, Amaia Arrazola’s Tokyo Travel Sketchbook, that briefly discussed the Japanese conventional idea about family. Post-WWII, Japan promoted the idea that it was going to take women to stay home and take care of the home life while the men went out to be the breadwinners. Japan had to, since it had to take everyone together to rebuild the country. However, after the real estate bubble of the 1980s’ was burst, the idea of family being the center really fell apart as Japanese men lost their status as breadwinners due to jobs being finite and gone.

I also remember reading about the history of Western influence in Japan. There’s been a bunch of debate about whether Japan truly embraced Western ideals. To be fair, a lot of voices that claim Western influence being high in non-Western countries tend to be Westerners themselves. Japanese voices on Western ideals may have been been misunderstood in the first place. Demon Slayer takes place during a time of transition where modernity was growing in Japan, while My Hero Academia uses the Western love of comic book superheroes as its basis for its story.

When I think about Demon Slayer and My Hero Academia’s popularities in different parts of the world, it’s perhaps the Western vs. Eastern view of how striving for new opportunities often means loss of community. In My Hero Academia, we do see the psychological effects of bad family influence due to the relentless pursuit of status in a modern world. I saw this mostly early on with Shoto Todoroki (this is being explored even further with the rest of his family as of this writing) and much later in the series with Tomura Shigaraki’s past being revealed.

I noticed that a lot of things are blamed on bad parenting (especially in Western culture). A lot of psychological help does suggest that the family has a big role in influencing a child’s development. However, are they to blame for everything? Outside factors, like social inequality, do play a role. Endeavor, the father of Shoto and top 2 hero at the time, had to deal with so much perceived inequality (i.e. being compared to All Might) that it drove him to abuse his own family. When Deku told Shoto that that his power was his alone regardless of his upbringing, Shoto saw that he was in a place of equality since he was in a supporting environment among his peers compared to his dad. He’s started to understand how life experiences with other people and circumstances can change someone for better or worse as he reluctantly re-connects with Endeavor (who’s trying to redeem himself).

With Demon Slayer, there’s the infamous Spider Family arc, where the villain, Rui, created a fake family in order to fill a void in their life as a demon. Rui ends up abusing their “family” to drive their superiority. They killed their parents at a young age while they were still human due to a fear of not being loved by them. The whole point of the arc was that everyone deserves some kind of loving family in their life. It’s hard to get through life by yourself even when you’re an independent spirit. I do feel though that certain relationships with family members/friends should be cut off if they are abusive like the case with Rui’s. There’s even more stories similar to this with the rest of the Twelve Moon demons (especially another family-related one with the arc that will be featured in Season 2 of the anime, which I might discuss later this year).

My Hero Academia is about moving forward with some reflection. Strive to be a hero of your life. Don’t think of the consequences as long as you’re saving innocent lives. Demon Slayer is also about moving forward, but remembering that there are points in your life where you need authentic connection and that bad people are still human beings who just feel disconnected from the world.

It also feels like both series address the issue of what connection-seeking traditions to pass on to newer generations that feel family/friendship seem lacking today. In My Hero Academia, there’s All for One’s desires to have successors to pass on his Quirk to even if they are dangerous. In Demon Slayer, there’s Kagaya Ubuyashiki, leader of the Demon Slayer Corps, who wanted to end his family’s curse and realizing over time that demons who wanted to fight back (like Tanjiro’s sister, Nezuko) against Muzan Kibutsuji should live. As someone who’s a Chinese-American, I've thought about what I could pass on as my culture has millennia of history and it does feel like age-old traditions/rituals are being passed over for materialistic convenience.

I do think it comes down to whether we pass on values or beliefs. Beliefs are basically “What’s good? What’s bad? This is real to me even if it’s not to anyone else!” There’s way too much emphasis on them. Beliefs tend to be very binary because people are often more than just their beliefs. Values are just abstract rules to everyday life and don’t involve personal beliefs. I feel like not enough emphasis is focused on values. For example, things like compassion and respect are values, not beliefs. I had to embrace what values I had to finally grow as a person because some of the beliefs I held to in my mind were hurting me.

Demon Slayer leans more toward appreciating values (usually ones that appeal to the Japanese mindset) due to Tanjiro’s personality, although My Hero Academia is a mix of appreciating both beliefs and values. While I do wish that “values > beliefs”, My Hero Academia does have some good insight on how beliefs can shape/warp values for both sides.

Both series take a look at the tension between family and the self in their own ways. It’s much more so with Demon Slayer due to how much the concept of family was important in the growth of Japan in the past. I think we can agree that while there are cultural differences in handling it, the idea of family is lost on both sides of the world. American and Japanese cultures aren’t very tolerate of “gray zones” (i.e. illegal immigrants who have families, sex workers who have families, etc.) and want life to be more black or white. That’s why many fans who don’t feel accepted for who they are look to other outlets for some kind of family that will accept them.

Healthy families of all kinds lead to stronger communities that in turn lead to a better world for everyone. I sometimes feel that modernity does family no favors. It’s fine to grow, but constant growth without self-reflection becomes harmful. Plus, family always comes back to affect you one way or another. You can’t ever fully get away from family as they’re the starting point to everyone’s life.

The only thing I can say is accept that your family/community, good and/or bad, is a part of your identity when you have conflicting thoughts and then take it from there. Denying that is just like trying to hide all your problems instead of dealing with them. It never ends well.

Blood is thicker than water and as both Demon Slayer and My Hero Academia show, when it’s shed, it can lead to disastrous consequences - both individually and collectively.

#My Hero Academia #psychology of heroes #mental health #superheroes #Demon Slayer #psychology of family #manga #anime #individualism #collectivism

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kdramalifee · 4 years

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What are your most favorite/recommended dramas? I've honestly only have watched 4 cause never know where to start once I finish one. Thank you!! 💕

Sorry of the late reply ❤

Here’s a “few” dramas that I enjoyed. Some of them fall into more than one category so I’ve written what categories I feel they fall into for each one. I’m going to write the amount of episodes for each show, but I’ll only be counting by (approx.) hour, so if the drama has 32 episodes where each “episode” is half an hour, I’ll write it as 16 episodes. Also some of these have several names, so I’ve just used the one they use on mydramalist. I’ve bolded my favourites.

This list might seem a bit daunting (as it is quite long) but I recommend looking at the specific genres you know you enjoy and just pick one you think seems interesting (there’s no shame in dropping a drama if it doesn’t grip you). If you can’t decide which one to start first, send me a message with the ones you’re trying to choose between and I’ll help you decide ^^

Action/suspense/Crime:

Bad Guys: 11 episodes, Action, Thriller, Psychological. A police detective gathers a team of criminals to combat crime in exchange for reducing their sentence. Throughout the drama, secrets are revealed.

Class of Lies: 16 episodes, Suspense, School, Mystery, Law. A highly successful lawyer falls from grace after the fallout from one of his cases. He fakes his identity to get the position as a teacher at the school connected to this case in an attempt to uncover the truth and save his reputation.

Cross: 16 episodes, Medical, Suspense. To get revenge for the death of his father, Kang In Kyu becomes a (highly skilled) doctor/surgeon and gets a job at the prison where his father’s killer resides in order to kill him.

Doubtful Victory: 20 episodes, Mystery, Crime. A man who was wrongfully sentenced to death when he was younger escapes from prison and fakes his identity as a police officer to help prove his innocence. (Just a heads up: I don’t think a lot of people liked this drama (it gets a bit draggy in the middle). I liked it, but I think that’s an unpopular opinion)

Kill It: 12 episodes, Action, Thriller. Kim Soo Hyun is a veterinarian who is also a professional killer. One day he is hired in exchange for information about his past. At the same time a detective is trying to find Kim Soo Hyun. They both uncover a mystery regarding their shared past.

Healer: 20 episodes, Romance, Action, Mystery. "Healer” is a special kind of night courier, that gets his clients whatever they want, as long as it doesn't involve murder. He is hired by a famous reporter to collect information on a second-rate tabloid writer. He begins to uncover the mystery of his own shared past with the two reporters, thus putting them all in danger. (This is a very popular drama that a lot of people have seen, so if you haven’t seen it I would recommend it.)

Mad Dog: 16 episodes, Action, Investigation, Mystery. A group calling themselves “Mad Dog” fights against insurance scams. They start working with Kim Min Joon, the brother of the man who crashed a plane killing the child and wife of the leader of Mad Dog. They try to uncover the truth behind the plane crash.

Player: 14 episodes, Action, Investigation. A private investigation team consisting of a swindler, a fighter, an elite hacker, and a talented driver is asked to take back property hidden away by criminals.

Save Me: 16 episodes, Psychological, Suspense. Following the failure of her father's business, Sang Mi and her family move to Muji-gun where they have no friends or relatives. After a tragic event, the family is taken in by the “Spiritual Father” resulting in them being trapped in a cult. Four young men try to save her.

Stranger: 16 episodes, Investigation, Mystery. Hwang Shi Mok had brain surgery when he was a child, which caused him to lack emotion. Now, Hwang Shi Mok works as a prosecutor. He meets Police Lieutenant Han Yeo Jin at a murder crime scene and they work together to eradicate corruption at the prosecutor's office and solve a serial murder case.

The Guardians: 16 episodes, Action, Thriller. After the murder of her daughter, Jo Soo Ji joins forces with a few other people to monitor criminals 24 hours a day and rescue potential victims before the crime is committed. Together with these people she fights to get justice for her daughter, who’s murderer is still free.

WATCHER: 16 episodes, Action, Suspense, Investigation. Kim Young Goon became a police officer after his father was imprisoned for the murder of his mother. The detective who imprisoned his father is the leader of the internal affairs investigation team and gets Young Goon to join in order to fight against corruption and uncover the truth behind the tragic incident.

Fantasy/sci-fi:

Angels Last Mission: Love: 16 episodes, Romance, Fantasy. Lee Yeon Seo is the prima ballerina, but after an accident she has to give up her dream. After her parents' sudden death, she doesn’t trust anyone since there are a lot of people lurking around her and her inherited money. Kim Dan is an optimistic, carefree angel who is always getting into trouble. In order to return to heaven, he is tasked with a mission to find true love for the talented but emotionally distant ballerina

Are You Human Too?: 18 episodes, Romace, Sci-fi. After loosing her son to her father in law, a woman creates an android to replace him. Years later the android called Nam Shin III must pretend to be the son of the rich family when the real Nam Shin falls into a coma.

Chicago Typewriter: 16 episodes, Fantasy/Supernatural, Romance. The story of a popular writer suffering from writers block, a fan of said author and a literal GHOST writer who starts writing for the main character. In a past life, these three people were all members of the resistance wanting to free Korea from the Japanese occupation. The story is set in modern times and in the 1930′s.

Circle: 12 episodes, Alien, Sci-fi, Mystery. This drama is set in both 2017 and the year 2037. In 2017 we follow the story of a college student working together with a woman that looks identical to a girl he knew as a child to investigate suicides that she insists are actually murders. In 2037 technology has advanced to the point where you can control human emotion (creating a city without crime). A detective enters this city in order to investigate a missing persons case from 2017. (The first half of each episode is set in 2017, the other half in 2037).

Duel: 16 episodes, Sci-fi, Crime, Suspense. After his daughter gets kidnapped a detective tries all he can to get her back. Suddenly the culprit shows up without any memories, denying that he has anything to do with the case. They work together to find the detectives daughter and uncover secrets along the way.

EXIT: 2 episodes (drama special), Sci-fi, Psychological. Kang Soo is a loan shark that tries to get by day to day in his depressing reality. No matter how hard he tries, he can't escape the nightmare of his reality, and when he was about to give up on his life, he sees a flier asking, "Do you want to become happy?" He goes to the research center, however, he learns that happiness comes at a steep price of 300,000 dollars. He decides to steal the money.

Extraordinary You: 16 episodes, Romance, Fantasy, School. Eun Dan Oh, a 17 year-old high-school student, experiences gaps in her memory and eventually comes to the realization that she’s living in a comic book. Not only that, but she is also a secondary character who’s supposed to die later on in the story due to a heart condition. She decides to change her fate and defy the writer to get a happy ending for herself.

Go Back Couple: 12 episodes, Fantasy, Life, Romance. Choi Ban Do and Ma Jin Joo are both 38-years-old and a married couple. Choi Ban Do has been burdened with being the breadwinner and Ma Jin Joo is a housewife with low self-esteem. Even though they loved each other when they married, they now hate each other. They both regret marrying at such a young age. The couple travels through time and finds themselves as 20-year-old university students when they met for the first time.

He is Psychometric: 16 episodes, Fantasy, Romance, Mystery, Comedy. After losing his parents in a fire, Lee Ahn acquires the power of psychometry, the ability to read a person or an object's past through physical contact, and he decides to use it to take bad people down. While he does not know how to control his power yet, he meets Yoon Jae In who tries her best to hide her painful secrets. Together with his foster guardian, prosecutor Kang Sung Mo, and the latter's colleague, investigator Eun Ji Soo, they team up to solve an elusive case that has been haunting the lives of Ahn, Sung Mo, and Jae In.

Life on Mars: 16 episodes, Fantasy, Mystery, Suspense. As leader of a crime investigation team, Han Tae Joo has propelled his career and risen through the ranks by trusting data over all else. One day, while investigating a serial murder case, he has an accident. When he wakes up, he suddenly finds himself in the winter of 1988. He doesn't know why, but he's now a detective appointed to work at a police station in a small city. To get back to the present day, Han Tae Joo tries to solve the case.

Signal: 16 episodes, Mystery, Fantasy, Crime. Fifteen years ago, a young girl was kidnapped on the way from school, and Park Hae Yeong, who was an elementary school student at that time, witnessed the crime. A few days later, the girl was found dead, and the police were not able to find the culprit. As time went by, Hae Yeong started distrusting the police. Fifteen years later, Hae Yeong is now a police officer and criminal profiler. One day, he finds a walkie-talkie that allows him to get in contact with Detective Lee Jae Han who is in the past. They then set out on a journey to solve cold cases.

Splash Splash Love: 2 episodes (Drama Special), Romance, Fantasy. Dan Bi is a high school senior who has given up on math. On the day she is about to take the KSAT for college, she is transported back into the past during a freak rain shower. She finds herself hundreds of years in the past at the height of the Joseon Kingdom, which is suffering from a severe drought. She encounters King Lee Do who yearns to learn advanced mathematics and falls in love with him.

Strong Woman Do Bong Soon: 16 episodes, Romance, Fantasy. Bong Soon is a woman with supernatural strenght who pines after a childhood crush who now works as a police officer. She is approached by the CEO of a gaming company who has a distrust for the police and she starts working as a bodyguard for him. (There are some problematic elements to this show, but the romance is really sweet)

The Guest: 16 episodes, Supernatural, Horror, Mystery. It centers around three characters who had their lives ruined by a demon called “Son” (the guest) when they were kids. Yoon Hwa Pyung is a psychic that can see ghosts and who was once possessed by “Son” causing his mother and his grandmother to die and his father to try to kill him. Kang Gil Young is a detective whose mother was killed by the demon and Choi Yoon/ Mateo is a catholic priest that exorcises demons and whose brother was once possessed by “Son” causing him to kill his family. They band together to find and stop “Son”.

You Who Came From the Stars: 21 episodes, Romance, Fantasy. Do Min Joon is an alien who landed on Earth 400 years ago during the Joseon Dynasty period. He possesses a near perfect appearance and enhanced physical abilities involving his vision, hearing and speed. Later, he discovers that he has three months left on Earth. And that is when he meets Cheon Song Yi, the biggest Hallyu star in Korea.

Romance:

Come and Hug Me: 16 episodes, Suspense, Romance, Melodrama. When they were children, Yoon Na Moo and Gil Nak Won were each others first love. They are forced to break apart when Na Moo's father Yoon Hee Jae, a psychopath serial killer, murders Nak Won's parents. 12 years later, Jae Yi has become a popular actress and Do Jin is now an experienced detective trying to repent for his fathers sins. They meet again and start to develop a relationship.

Descendants of the Sun: 16 episodes, Romance, Medical, Action. Kang Mo Yeon works as a cardiothoracic surgeon and Yoo Shi Jin is the Captain and team leader of Alpha Team. They both get sent into an area of conflict, and start to devolop a relationship.

Hospital Ship: 20 episodes, Romance, Medical. This drama is about army doctors aboard a hospital ship, which is a floating hospital that serves people who live on remote islands. Eun Jae, a cold perfectionist surgeon whose fast-track career was derailed, starts working at the ship.

Just Between Lovers: 16 episodes, Romance, Melodrama. A shopping center collapses killing many people. When he was 15, Lee Gang Doo dreamed of playing for the Korean national soccer team, but a serious injury sustained as a result of the accident destroys those dreams. In the years after the accident, Gang Doo spends his days fighting through physical and emotional pain, struggling to support his sister and pay back a hefty debt, and working as a construction worker. When she was 15, Ha Moon Soo lived through the accident, and years later she is still plagued by nightmares. She lives above the women’s bath house that her mother runs and specializes in making architectural models that are an important safety element in any major building planning process. Years after the incident, a construction project is due to kick-off at the accident site, and they both get involved in the project, causing them to develop a relationship while struggling with the painful memories it brings back.

Shopping King Louie: 16 episodes, Romance. The story of “Shopaholic Louie” revolves around a handsome shopaholic named Louie, who is the successor of a vast business empire but becomes homeless after suffering from amnesia. Meanwhile, Koh Bok Shil, a country girl who lives a life that is worlds apart from the rich and famous, encounters Louie in Seoul. They develop a relationship.

Thirty but Seventeen: 16 episodes, Romance. Woo Seo Ri, a violin prodigy at 17 who was about to study in Germany, got into a bus accident and fell into a coma waking up 13 years later. Mentally she is still only 17, while physically she is now 30. Due to a trauma he experienced 13 years before, Gong Woo Jin does not want to have a relationship with others. They get to know each other and try and open the door to the happiness that they once thought had been closed to them.

When the Camellia Blooms: 20 episodes, Romance, Thriller, Life. Dong Baek is a single mother living in the small town of Ongsan. She runs the bar-restaurant Camellia, while also taking care of her son Pil Gu. The people of Ongsan frequently gossip about Dong Baek. She grew up as an orphan, is a single mother and runs a bar where many of the men in Ongsan frequent. Regardless of what the locals may whisper about Dong Baek, local police officer Hwang Yong Shik is deeply in love with her. Meanwhile, Dong Baek's ex-boyfriend Kang Jong Ryeol suddenly reappears in her life. He is a famous baseball player, that hid their relationship when they dated. While Dong Baek tries to find happiness, something truly sinister lurks in the background. A serial killer roams Ongsan and Dong Baek may be a target.

Historical:

Kingdom: 6 episodes, Action, Historical, Zombie. The King falls ill to smallpox and rumors start to spread that he has actually died. Meanwhile, Crown Prince Lee Chang is labeled a traitor by the Haewon Cho Clan, the clan of the current pregnant Queen and her father, Chief State Councillor Cho Hak Joo. While trying to uncover the mystery of what happened to his father, the Crown Prince goes with his guard, Moo Young, to Dongnae to look for the physician that treated his father, only to be stuck with Assistant Physician Seo Bi and a mysterious man named Young Shin in a village plagued with a terrifying disease.

My Country: 16 episodes, Historical, Action, Romance, Tragedy. Two friends ends up on opposite sides in a conflict involving the fight for the crown. Confronted with betrayal the two of them have to learn how to fight against their best friend all while trying to stay good in a cruel world.

The Tale of Nokdu: 16 episodes, Action, Romance, Comedy. One day, Nok Du’s father and older brother are attacked by a group of female assassins. Jeon Nok Du chases after one of the assassins to the capital. To find out why his family was attacked, Jeon Nok Du disguises himself as a woman and enters a widow village where the assassins are hiding. There, he meets Dong Dong Ju who is an apprentice to become a gisaeng.

Misc:

Age of Youth: 12 episodes, Friendship, Life. Five girls in their twenties come to live together in a house called "Belle Epoque. As the girls feel a bond of sympathy and become closer, they also deal with their personal issues as they live out their eventful twenties. The drama follows their struggles and incidents dealing with relationships - within their circles, with dating, and with each other - and a variety of events they are experiencing including credits, part-time jobs, drinking, hopes and dreams. (This drama also has a second season)

Avengers Social Club: 12 episodes, Friendship, Life. Features three women from different walks of life coming together for revenge: a fish store ajumma who envisioned a better life for herself, a housewife, and a chaebol’s daughter who was raised like a delicate greenhouse flower. They’re an unlikely trio who would never otherwise meet, but they join forces to carry out their individual revenges. Although they start out as co-conspirators, along the way they’ll build a strong friendship.

Chief Kim: 20 episodes, Business, Comedy. Kim Sung Ryong is a skilled accountant who works for gangsters. He makes his way into a company called TQ Group as a middle manager in the accounting department with the intention of embezzling money from the company. As he contends with hot-shot accountant Yoon Ha Kyung, financial prodigy Seo Yul and peppy intern Hong Ga Eun, Sung Ryong finds himself embroiled in office politics and notices other shenanigans by those in power that threaten to bring down the company. Sung Ryong slowly comes to realize that he’d rather fight against corporate corruption and fight for employees’ rights than complete the mission he originally came to do.

Miss Hammurabi: 16 episodes, Law, Romance. Park Cha Oh Reum is a newly appointed judge who is assigned to the 44th Civil Affairs Department at the Seoul Central District. She is always on the lookout for injustice and is able to profoundly empathize with others. Compared to her, Im Ba Reun is a cool-headed man of principle with the creed of ‘Court that is equal to all’, and he is displeased with junior judge Park Cha Oh Reum who is overly sympathetic when it comes to cases. (There is one moment in the first episode (I believe) where something problematic occurs, but I think its only that one thing).

Psychopath Diary: 16 episodes, Comedy, Mystery. Yook Dong Sik is a 34-year-old office worker who is so weak and timid that he is used by everybody around him. After an incident, he becomes the scapegoat of his company, and so facing losing his job and his family turning their back on him, he decides to commit suicide. While doing so, he unexpectedly stumbles across a murder scene, but gets into an accident while running from the murderer. He wakes up with amnesia with the psychopath's diary in his possession. With no clues to his true nature other than the diary,and his fragmented memory lining up with the diary entry, he begins to believe that he is in fact a psychopath serial killer.

Happy watching!

#ask #arminartlet #kdrama #im starting to realise i might have seen too many kdramas #and yes after a while i got tired of writing the synopsis so i just copied them from mydramalist #and just edited the ones i felt were too long

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hellzyeahthewebwieldingavenger · 4 years

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I will respond to this. But in future I’m asking you and others not to send me things like this please.

“This month, Marvel Comics relaunched Amazing Spider-Man with a Nick Spencer as head writer, marking the end of Dan Slott's long run with the title and an end of the "Brand New Day" era of Spider-History.”

The problems start here. BND ended before Slott’s solo run began.

“ Spencer's run begins with a bit of a bang.

Well, about as much of a bang as you get from kissing the same person you've known for 50 years.”

This is a reductive and childish mentality towards romance and sex. It prioritizes the novelty and excitement of ‘new love’ (which is scientifically guaranteed to last like 2 years tops) over the deeper and ultimately more potent emotions attached to proper love, which in truth is kind of like friendship on steroids.

In this specific case it’s especially stupid as, putting aside fan reactions, the fact that Peter and Mj were back together after 10+ years was OBVIOUSLY going to be a shocking moment. A ‘bang’ if you will. This is like saying it wasn’t a moment of audience interest whenever Ross and Rachel seemingly got back together or when Monica and Chandler initially got together. They too had known one another for a long time, a roughly equivalent time for their character and Peter and MJ in-universe.

“This has come after Peter and Mary Jane have been apart for about a decade. This recent "surprise" get-back-to-gether is the same sort of "exciting development" that happens eventually after Marvel breaks a couple up, or kills someone in one of their books (See the Hulk, Jean Grey, Peter Parker during Superior Spider-Man, etc. etc. etc.) Peter and Mary Jane getting back together (apparently) is sort of a big deal.”

Yes. Because fans WANTED them to be back together.

Fans aren’t in this for the roller coaster of novelty. They don’t want Spidey or Superman to be with anyone OTHER than MJ or Lois. By the same token the majority do not want anyone other than Luthor or Joker to be Superman or Batman’s archenemies.

“See, in 2007 Marvel Comics made the bold decision to end the marriage between Spider-Man and his longtime wife, Mary Jane Watson.”

Watson Parker

It wasn’t bold it was asinine

How bold is it when it was the third such attempt to do that? “At the time, fans lost their shit.” And they are STILL angry about it. “You can't really blame them because the deed was done in the most asinine way. For some reason, divorce was out of the question. The alternative was somehow more awful. After Peter's Aunt May got shot in the bo-bo at the end of Civil War, Spider-Man literally made a deal with the devil to save her life.” WTF is a bo-bo? “What did this change exactly? Well, the events of Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21 didn't end in a marriage. So everything that happened after was still the same except Peter amd MJ were a common-law couple. Or something.” And MJ was never pregnant, and all the shit specifically related to their wedding rings, dress, photos, anniversary couldn’t have happened and given how to them marriage wasn’t a piece of paper then this would have massive ramifications for their relationship quite a part from the fact there would now be a massive sore spot in their relationship. “Anyway, like I said, a lot of longtime fans hated it.” No. MOST longtime fans hated it. And most SHORT time fans also hated it. And even many newer fans who jumped on-board after it hated it too. “You know, the audience they weren't trying to appeal to anymore.” Which was idiotic. You don’t try to gain a new audience by throwing away your old one. You try to retain the old audience and bring new people into the fold at the same time. Noticeably this happened in the 1990s. This failed to happen after OMD and it failed to happen with the Nu52 which was the OMD for the whole DC universe. The latter failed so badly they reverse rebooted many characters, Superman chief among them. Superman’s financial and critical reception increased when they brought back the OLD Superman who was married (and now a father to boot) and used him to replace the younger, single and hip Superman most people disliked. The OLD fans returned. Shockingly appealing to the old AND new fans is possible. “Still, they came up with a storyline that would be relatable to younger readers, and still be relevant to longtime readers as well”

It wasn’t a storyline it was an era

No. It absolutely wasn’t relatable or relevant to younger readers. I was 16-19 when BND was running. I was directly the demographic they were trying to appeal to. Let me tell you straight. Those stories were not relatable. At all. They weren’t relevant. At all. The PS4 game’s take? Now that shit was reltable but noticeably that version only takes plot concept from BND. The characterization of Peter is far more in line with his pre-OMD self and didn’t represent a regression of the character

Thousands of people became Spider-Man fans reading the marriage era Spidey comics. If it was so unrelatable how is that possible?

The stories were not relevant to the older audience at all because the whole purpose of BND was to basically ignore 90% of Spider-Man history between 1987-2007. And more importantly even the characteriation before then that they were trying to invoke was done incorrectly. The Spidey of BND was a systemically mischaracterizion of Spider-Man even if yu ignored OMD “The fiscal reasoning made sense, there were Spider-Man films that were out roping in a new generation kids who wouldn't relate to a married Spider-Man.”

There was a 5 season long TV show before those movies aimed directly at children. Kids got into Spidey through that and we didn’t care he was married. In fact he was married on the show

To 90s/2000s teens and tweens the struggles of Spidey in the 1994 cartoon and Raimi movies were not all that relatable. The male members of the cartoon audience were too young to be interested in romance and all the demographics were unlikely to relate to Peter’s financial struggles as they were too young to work. Even if they weren’t too young to work they wouldn’t have been the breadwinner of the household the way they might’ve been in the 1960s. By the 1990s and 2000s times had changed

Peter had become a MAN like halfway through the first Raimi movie and that wasn’t even the most popular or successful one. Spider-man 2, where Peter was distinctly an adult and grappling with adult problems, was

Kids have been unlikely to relate to Batman. In fact as times have changed it’s evident they infinitely prefer Batman to Robin, the character actually created specifically for them to relate to. Batman is at least as popular as Spider-Man, if not moreso

The MCU has made Iron Man and Black Panther (who kids could never truly relate to) and Captain America (whom few people regardless of age could ever relate to as he is almost a moral paragon) fan favourite characters. CLEARLY relatability is at best highly subjective and at worst not essential to making a character appealing

BND occurred after Spider-Man 3 where Peter wanted to marry Mary Jane. If anything the JMS era of Spidey where he was married to the main love interest from the movies and where Aunt May knew who he was would’ve been MORE synergetic with the movies of the time than what BND was “Also, times have changed. Fans freaked out that Spider-Man was no longer married and back to living at Aunt May's home? At the time Peter Parker was in his late 20s (Marvel Time).” No, at the time he was 30 years old. “If this is basically you in 2018, you had no reason to bitch about Brand New Day.” Get fucked. Fans had EVERY reason to bitch about BND back then AND now too. Putting aside how we got there (which would be reason enough) the stories themselves were objectively deplorable! “Looking back at the storyline 10 years after the fact,” It’s not a storyline. It was an era. “it's hard to understand what the big deal was.” It’s hard to understand mischaracterization, illogic, continuity contradictions, sexism, racism, juvenile writing, character deconstruction, borderline gaslighting of the fans, talking down to the audience, price gouging, inconsistent writing and art and just generally bad storytelling? “Because I secretly hate myself, I decided to read every Spider-Man comic published.” I somehow doubt that. Even if it’s true there is a massive difference between reading a story and understanding it. Dan Slott READ a lot of Spider-Man. He knew a lot of Spider-Facts. But he clearly never understood the character. He might KNOW MJ shut that door in ASM #122. But he absolutely doesn’t grasp it’s deeper meaning. “I started about a year ago, and I'm just hitting stories published in 2007. In retrospect, there are a lot of shitty Spider-Man stories. Some of them weren't as bad as they were made out to be (The Clone Saga, being one of them, surprisingly) One thing about the Peter/MJ marriage (which ran from 1987 to 2007) is you quickly realize their marriage was horrible.” Sure. If you are a bad literary analyst, sexist, crap at contextualization and apply a blunt criteria instead of nuance. If you don’t you get that there were ups and downs with the writing as would be expected of almost anything written across 20 years by multiple writers. “Especially for Mary Jane.” Oh cool, sexist it is then. “It wasn't good, it was a burden to telling good stories.” Kraven’s Last Hunt Sensational Spider-Man Annual 2007 Spider-Man Unlimited v3 #2 Story 2 Parallel Lives Anything by JMS involving MJ Revelations Spec #200 Spec #241-245 Sensational v2 #32 Marvel Knights: Spider-man #1-12 And many other stories I could name say otherwise genius. “This is because the writers involved at the time didn't seem to understand how a marriage works.”

JMS clearly did

DeMatteis clearly did

DeFalco clearly did

Sacasa clearly did

Peter David clearly did

Mark Millar clearly did

Even Bendis clearly did

Maybe it’s not how YOUR marriage works. But everyon’es marriage is a different “The marriage was, at best, an excuse for an instant damsel in distress situation,” Remember how the marriage was used as an instant damsel-in-distress situation in KLH? Remember how that was ALL it amounted to in the Eisner nominated Sensational Spider-Man Annual 2007? Remember how badly MJ was in need of rescuing in the Jonathan Caesar storyline? “or at worse a reason for Peter Parker to go on about how "lucky" he was to be married to a model/actress. Like Mary Jane was nothing more than a trophy to pride himself because he was such a fucking loser in high school.” Yes. Peter never argued with MJ. Peter never confided his concerns with MJ. MJ never alleviated his guilt. MJ never grew as a person from her horrible childhood issues through being married with Peter. MJ didn’t become more self-sacrificing due to Peter. Peter was never pushed to become more powerful by thoughts of his believed wife. They never helped one another through traumatic situations. “What I really want to stress here is, Peter and Mary Jane's marrage was awful.” Nah fam. YOUR analytical skills are awful. “Worst. Idea. Ever.” Nah fam. You writing this was the worst idea ever. Scratch that, me subjecting myself to this shit was the worst idea ever. “Can't take my word for it? Here are some reasons why: Mary Jane Had to Swat Away So Many Dicks” An attractive woman with a very public profile draws unwanted attention? How unrealistic! It’s terrible that such a thing would never happen in real life, real life being the baked into the core concept of Spider-Man. Why if it did it’d be a organic way to give MJ subplots and conflicts of her own to deal with that could impact upon Peter’s life by extension or something. “Almost from the start, Mary Jane had to fend off other men who were obsessed with her and didn't give a shit that she was married. That's not necessarily Peter's fault, but it really says a lot of the opinion towards female characters in comics at the time.” …how…? This happens in real life…A LOT! And what has ‘Peter’s fault’ got to do with this? It’s not even a statement that warrants a ‘necessarily’. What? If Peter was more ‘Alpha’ other men would know not to try it on with ‘his woman’ or something? Also, let’s properly contextualize things okay. Between 1987-2007 MJ was stalked by like 5 people. That’s once every 4 years if you average it out but 3/5 of them occurred in Michelinie’s run alone which is not the be all or end all of the marriage. Another one was for a single issue and the final one was actually obsessed with Peter and used MJ to get to him. I ain’t saying it didn’t get old but this guy is making it out to be something that was an annual event. “Sure, the idea of someone stalking an actress/model isn't outlandish, and a sad fact of the celebrity-driven reality we live in.” YOU DON’T SAY! And it doesn’t just apply to actresses or models btw. “However, the number of times this was used as a plot got a bit out of hand.” I agree. But 5 times across 20 years, when there was a 5 year gap between the third and fourth instances and a 5 year gap between the fourth and final instance (lasting for 1 issue and wasn’t even the main plot) is not reflective of anything. “That said because it's a Spider-Man comic book they couldn't just settle on a dumpy guy wearing sticky jogging pants. They had to kick it up a notch. With horrific implications for poor Mary Jane.” …yeeeeeeeeeeah? And? Stalkers are horrible. You want there to be tension and conflict so the threat of violence is absolutely justifiable. FFS, kraven the Hunter buried Spider-Man alive and Venom threatened to eat parts of him. And VENOM was Spidey’s stalker! “Jonathon Caesar An obsession so cliche, I'm surprised that nobody made a joke about his knife compensating for having a small dick.” Except circa 1989 it wasn’t cliché. At least not as far as a Spidey comic was concerned. If we are opening this up to ALL media then sure but then by that logic Gwen’s death and countless other stories would also be cliché wouldn’t they. “The first scum bag to enter Mary Jane's married life was Jonathon Caesar. He was a wealthy man with a lot of connections.” …Almost like Harvey Weinstein or something… “He helped Mary Jane get into the Bedford Towers condominium (which Caesar owned). His motivation? To kidnap a married woman and force her to live in a specially made trap room until she agreed to marry him. Spider-Man didn't even save the day! Mary Jane broke free on her own and the wall-crawler showed up in time to do the cleanup.” Holy shit. If anyone ever needed proof this doofus’s analytical skills weren’t there this is it. The Jonathan Caesar storyline was designed to be a subversion of the damsel-in-distress trope. The whole fucking POINT was that MJ saved herself instead of Spidey saving her! Jesus Christ how do you miss that. Not to mention how do you complain Caesar as a villain is cliché but then ALSO complain that the damsel-in-distress cliché wasn’t adhered to. “Caesar went to jail but he used his influence to ruin her modeling career and get her evicted from their home.” *coughWeinsteincough* “Not only that, but MJ's money got tied up in a lengthy legal battle, with no apparent end in sight. In fact the money mentioned here is never talked about again.” Er…yes it is. MJ ultimately settles in ASM #333 wiping out her savings. I’d have thought someone who read every Spider-Man comic book would have known that. “Caesar eventually got out of jail and continued to stalk Mary Jane.” Again, clearly hasn’t read every Spider-Man comic book and/or is a shitty analyst. Yes Caesar did this but he did this BEFORE MJ engaged him in a legal battle. “Her husband didn't do squat to stop it.” What was he supposed to do? Caesar was out legally and Peter couldn’t just kill or assault the guy. Threatening him would likely have helped Caesar’s legal case further, especially due to the public knowing about the association between Peter and Spidey. Touching Caesar would be like trying to get the Kingpin locked up. It’s extremely difficult for someone that rich and powerful. “He was too busy playing Spider-Man to help his own wife.” No. He was busy saving the lives of innocent people. He wasn’t doing this for fun, he is Spidey for the greater good. MJ knows that. MJ knew that she could ask Peter for help if she needed it and he’d come running. She made it clear she could handle it and like a good husband he respected her decision. It wasn’t like she was trying to reach him for help and he was distracted or actively ignored her. But you know, those disingenuous pieces of misinformation aren’t going to write themselves. Also the stories are a little ambiguous about this but there is a possible implication that MJ was keeping Peter somewhat in the dark about Caesar’s activities. “The only person who was interested in Mary Jane's safety was Officer Hal Goldman, who ended up shooting Caesar dead. Was Hal a super-cop detective that ate serial stalkers for lunch? Note really, see the thing about Hal.... Hal Goldman Let's follow up this sexist scene with the woman regretting her career choices. Very progressive.”

This bozo shouldn’t be lecturing people on what is and isn’t sexist

FFS OF COURSE someone in MJ’s position would be questioning her career choices. She’s just been stalked by 2 lunatics. But noticeably she doesn’t stop being an actress/model after this. The moment was a dash of comedy given the situation and nothing more. But you wouldn’t know that given how this guy is not bothering to use context or anything

How the Hell is MJ macing a stalker and then knocking him out sexist? “Hal Goldman wasn't actually a police officer. He was just a fat NYPD civilian desk clerk with a terrible bowl cut who had an unhealthy obsession with Mary Jane when she starred in a soap opera called "Secret Hospital". Although he was "investigating" Jonathan Ceasar's attempts to ruin Mary Jane's life again, he was also obsessed with protecting her from everyone who slighted her. He ran over an old woman who slapped MJ in the face, dropped a stage light on her director's head and tried to clobber Peter with a piece of concrete. However, this is an accurate depiction of how fan-boys react to things.” Remember how over 50% of fanboys threatened or actually inflicted violence upon people because of OMD? Neither do I. “When he guns down Caesar he professes his undying love to Mary Jane and admits to committing all the above crimes. Again, Peter is nowhere around,” Of course he’s nowhere around. Peter doesn’t constantly monitor MJ all day every day. You know…like a stalker. Fuck real life husbands don’t do this. Moreover if we bother to check the issue in question (ASM #339) some interesting details are presented to us. For starters MJ was only endangered due to trickery and bad luck. Caesar forced a co-star of MJ’s to handwrite a note and sign it asking for her to meet him at the set of Secret Hospital. Between the set being a relatively safe environment and the note checking out as legitimate due to the handwriting and signature, MJ had no reason to be suspicious. Peter absolutely intended to go with MJ but earlier that day had been doused with a chemical by the Sinister Six, the effects of which he was uncertain about. He got a call regarding the Six’s activities and the chemical so logically that would take priority over Mj merely meeting a co-star. MJ chose not to delay the meeting until Peter was available and go herself. Again neither she nor Peter had any reason to suspect foul play. So Peter’s absence was never due to neglect. It wasn’t even due to putting the duties of Spider-man before the needs of his wife. As far as either of them knew there was no danger. So again, distorting the facts. Classy. “so when she rejects him Officer Bowl Cut decides to do the old "if I can't have you, nobody will!" Routine. However, she sprayed him in the eyes with hairspray and clobbered him with a purse. You know just as you'd expect a strong female character to do.” Yes. That is exactly what I expect a female, or indeed any character, to do in that situation. Mary Jane had no real weapons. The story even specified that MJ tried to get a handgun but was still waiting on it. So she improvised and used whatever resources she had to hand. This is routine for Mary Jane both during and before the marriage. Using hairspray and a handbag, which are not obvious weapons but can nevertheless be repurposed for offence, was a perfectly legitimate technique for both the character and writer to employ. It’s almost like it makes her look smart, tough and resourceful for being able to think on her feet like that or something. Oh, and again. MJ is bad because she conforms to a cliché but is also bad because didn’t conform to the cliché of Spidey rescuing her which would’ve also been bad because the marriage is used to easily generate damsel-in-distress situations. This isn’t even a double standard it’s a TRIPLE standard. This jackoff has constructed his argument in such a way that Mary Jane/the marriage can NEVER win. “Jason Jerome This happened in 1990, consent hadn't been invented yet.”

Jason wasn’t a stalker strictly speaking

This storyline, bad as it was, was nevertheless handled very differently from the Jonathan Caesar arc because MJ at least was tempted to reciprocate feelings for Jason whilst she was repulsed by Caesar

YES. the concept of consent WASN’T very well taught back in the 1990s! What the hell is he point here? “Jason Jerome was an actor who thought he could seduce Mary Jane into having an affair with him. This came at a time when there were three monthly Spider-Man titles. This made for one busy wall-crawler. On top of fighting villains, he was also promoting a book and traveling the globe as a reporter. Needless to say, MJ was feeling more than a little neglected. This made Mary Jane susceptible to Jerome's advances. However, despite his best efforts, Mary Jane ended things before they had gone too far. To do so, she invited Jason to her apartment under the pretence of sex. Instead of getting balls deep, Jason Jerome found himself in a room plastered with photos of Peter and Mary Jane together, like inviting an obsessed man into your home without telling anyone is a smart idea.” Jason was not obsessed. He viewed MJ as a ‘conquest’ and from her POV was not dangerous like Caesar or Hal. Also IIRC this occurred after the incident with Hal, which meant MJ would likely have owned a handgun by this point. Even if she didn’t, she defeated Hal and Caesar and his guards when she was unprepared and improvising on the fly. Here she has had hours to prep and it’s literally in her home. If she suspected Jason to be dangerous (which he was not and had given her no reason to believe so) she was in a great position to handle him. “All the lamps and hairspray in the world cannot possibly stop this potentially becoming a bad situation.” A rich and powerful lunatic with a knife and armed guards outside got their ass beaten by MJ whilst she was improvising…on their home turf. A less rich, less powerful, unarmed man with no displays of mental instability or violence comes to MJ’s home turf on his own. So yes, if she was so inclined MJ could 100% rig up a trap with hairspray and a lamp or a fucking gun if she had one. “If this backfires, let's just hope he's into this sort of thing.” A necrophilia joke? How tasteful. “The Stalker "I said, I'm bored with sort of scenario. Can you try and change this up a bit?"”

Jason Jerome wasn’t stalking MJ

Yes the stalker was lame. Also this occurred around 9-10 years later

You know there is more to this relationship than the occasions when MJ was stalked FFS “The most unoriginal character created by Howard Mackie during his run.” His run when he was possibly dealing with serious health issues. Classy. “The Stalker follows a long tradition of Marvel characters whose names are obvious: The Prowler prowls,” Except he doesn’t do much prowling. He flits between retirement and active costumed work. And he’s not exactly a stalker of the night like Batman when he’s out of retirement. “the Watcher watches, and the Shocker finger blasts people.” Does this guy know what ‘shocking’ means? Blasting people isn’t shocking them. Electrocuting people = shocking people. Vibrating them doesn’t = shocking them. “So obviously, the Stalker was a stalker. Specifically, he stalked Mary Jane. The guy went to some insane lengths. He set off bombs and killed people. The whole time this was happening Peter was busy going out as Spider-Man.” YES. THAT’S HIS FUCKING JOB! Also, for the majority of the time Mj was being stalked she had kept Peter in the dark about the guy. Shortly after he finally did learn the truth he seemingly died. For sure he was kept away from her whilst she was being made a target, but

The 1970s Clone Saga

Spec Annual 1988

Smoke and Mirrors

Web #125

Maximum Clonage

Clone Conspiracy

“Each time he seems to forget the fact that a lunatic had cloned his dead girlfriend every time.”

Horseshit.

He KNEW the truth in every encounter following the first one. He didn’t fall for it on the third-sixth occasions but shockingly seeing your dead loved one (who died right in front of you) walking around alive is going to emotionally hurt you and dreadge up old wounds and old feelings.

Gerry Conway in Spec Annual 1988 directly addresses this by having Peter acknowledge that intellectually he knows Gwen to merely be a clone but emotionally he still feels towards her the same way as though she were the real Gwen.

It’s almost like Conway was a good writer not a HACK like the OP and so knows that in matters of the heart a realistic human being might let their sense of logic fly out the window.

If ONLY there had been a global sensation of a movie released months prior to ASM v5 #1 which demonstrated this aptly.

“Every time it made Peter confused and dug up old feelings. Which, naturally, made Mary Jane doubt the strength of their relationship.”

That literally happened twice. And she briefly doubted before thinking otherwise or been shown otherwise.

“With this many clones of the dead girlfriend, you'd figure he would have gotten used to it.”

Yes if he was an emotionless automaton. Or written by someone who knows jack about human emotions...like the OP…

“Instead of going to a shrink to process these feelings,”

Thus risking the anonymity that protects himself and his loved ones.

“Peter usually fell for the various manipulations that typically came from these convoluted cloning schemes and hit whoever was responsible.”

OBVIOUSLY he hit whoever was responsible. They were super villains, he was going to bring them to justice no matter what

Again, he fell for it the first time. But ONLY the first time. He was aware Gwen was a clone in every other encounter and never played along. Many of those instances weren’t even villains pulling a scheme but a situation Peter happened to mix himself up in. Spec Annual #8 had nothing to do with him as the High Evolutionary wanted to apprehend Gwen for his own purposes. Web #125 involved him discovering Gwen’s clone in the suburbs but no villain had planned on him doing that

“That Time Illegitimate Kids Showed Up

Gwen Stacy was always portrayed as a saintly woman cut down in the prime of her life.”

Except for all those times she absolutely wasn’t prior to her death; that’s not even counting AUs.

Saint Gwendolyn I, Holy Virgin Martyr Princess was a revisionist invention fabricated after her death to make her death more tragic in hindsight. It’s a pack of lies that doesn’t deserve to be paid attention to.

“That was until JMS wrote a Gwen Stacy story that was entirely fucked up.”

No. It was only partially fucked up because

Gwen was obviously not pregnant

MJ and Gwen didn’t care about Gwen’s kids

“In it, Peter learns that Gwen had an affair with Norman Osborn (the Green Goblin, AKA the guy who later murdered her) and got knocked up.”

They didn’t have an affair.

People seem to be misinformed on the definition of what the word ‘affair’ means. They use it as though it means ‘being unfaithful to your partner’. That is not the meaning of the term. An EXTRAMARITAL affair can mean that but a regular romantic/sexual affair doesn’t inherently mean there is any unfaithfulness occurring.

But it DOES have to be ongoing to some extent.

Gwen and Norman weren’t in any kind of on-going relationship. They had sex exactly once.

And during that time no unfaithfulness was occurring as Gwen was not with Peter at the time.

“Everyone apparently knew and kept it a secret.”

…er….no…I don’t know how you could even misread Sins Past to come to that conclusion.

The story is extremely explicit that Gwen and Norman kept their encounter and Gwen’s pregnancy a secret. MJ knew about it and told Peter years later. But there is nothing in the story even hinting that anyone else knew besides the three of them.

“During a point where Gwen and Peter were on the outs, she found out she was pregnant, left the country, and gave birth to the kids. These kids were then secreted away by Norman for years.

When Peter found about these kids (but not their origins) he assumed they were his kids, even though he later remembers that he and Gwen never had sex!!”

He never presumes they are his children. Again, great analytical skills there.

“What's worse, is after all was said and done, Peter later went to France to help out Gwen's daughter, who was her spitting image and the same biological age that Gwen was when Peter dated her (they aged fast, look it up) This was all an attempt to seduce Peter and he had to constantly remind himself that his feelings for her were wrong.”

It was absolutely not an attempt to seduce Peter. Sarah’s agenda only later evolved to entail that too but that wasn’t her original motive

In one of the all time best episodes of the Simpsons Homer was tempted by his co-worker Mindy. This occurred in spite of countless episodes demonstrating how much he loved Marge. Ultimately nothing more than a kiss was shared between them and he didn’t succumb to his temptations. In this scenario Peter is being confronted by someone who looks and to an extent acts identically to someone he loved and cruelly lost, someone who for a time he believed he might have a future with. This occurs not very long after he learns that his relationship with that person was at least partially a big lie as she was pregnant for most of their relationship and slept with his ultimate enemy. So he’s going to be incredibly emotionally vulnerable at this point. Sarah kissed him and he didn’t reciprocate at all. Peter if anything can be more forgiven his temptations than Homer was. And Homer was still forgivable as your actions are what ultimately matter. Peter not only acknowledged his feelings were wrong and coming from an emotionally confusing place but he never acted upon them either and reaffirmed his love for MJ when all was said and done. Much like Homer did to Marge after rejecting Mindy.

“Mary Jane had such a bad feeling about it, she travelled to France to check in on her hubby, and walked in on him while Gwen Jr. Was kissing Peter.”

Yeah. Because OOC writing exists dipshit. You don’t just take ANY given story as gospel FFS. What kind of pre-schooler level literary analysis is this?

“The fact that Peter was attracted to a 7 year old girl who only looked like she was in her early 20s because of a genetic disorder is super creepy.”

It is because see above about OOC writing. But by this logic the clones of Gwen were even younger. Sarah was mentally 7 but she looked just like an adult Gwen Stacy so obviously Peter’s emotions and attractions being confused is forgivable under the circumstances.

“So you can totally understand when Mary Jane was upset about that one.”

I’m genuinely shocked this clown was able to be so sympathetic towards MJ here.

“Somewhere, a divorce lawyer just got a huge erection.”

I’m sure he would have if only the story hadn’t ended by reaffirming Peter and MJ’s love for one another.

“It Wasn't Just the Dead Girlfriend, but her Extended Family

Before we get into more of the Stacy family, let's talk about the Watson family for a minute. Mary Jane came from a broken home. An alcoholic and abusive father led to her mother taking the kids and leaving. Although he mom died her sister had two kids and was abandoned by the father. Also, she has a cousin who has an eating disorder. In a lot of these cases, Peter Parker left his wife to deal with the family drama on her own.”

No.

Peter actively helped MJ when she asked him to in ASM #291-292.

He actively helped MJ’s friend who had a drug problem when MJ asked him to.

In the recent one shot Going Big Peter seeks out Kristy when she disappears…because MJ asked him to.

Peter respected MJ and her family and would’ve helped in any way he was able if MJ aske him to.

But between supporting their family, Aunt May and protecting the city because he’s a fucking super hero his time and abilities to help were limited. Oh and MJ didn’t ask him to.

She felt, not unjustifiably, that she could handle it. Often MJ wishes to leave Peter as unburdened as possible if she can handle a situation because his life is dangerous and stressful enough as is. But she knows he’s there to help if she needs it. And he would be there if she needed him.

It’ almost like they were MARRIED or something and divided up their duties appropriately or something.

This clown seems to treat ‘being Spider-Man’ as code for ‘have fun goofing off lulz’. It’s not. It’s a massive duty and higher purpose Peter takes incredibly seriously.

“Which is quite the slap in the face when he spent more time helping the Stacy family. Namely Gwen's cousins Paul and Jill and their dad.”

Because they were his friends, MJ’s friends and at times MJ asked him to help them. Peter didn’t even like spending time with them initially because they opened up old wounds for him. He had to put the work in to hang around them.

“When they appeared in Spider-Man stories in the late 90s, Mary Jane took a back seat to whatever problems the Stacy's were having.”

No she didn’t.

SOMETIMES the problems regarding the Stacy’s happened to be the A plot. Other times they happened to be the B plot. This happened more often than not in peter Parker: Spider-Man by Mackie. But there were FOUR Spider-titles at the time so that’s more than acceptable.

But Peter never helped the Stacy’s at the expense of Mary Jane, not unless there was a clear physical danger posed to their lives.

In Mackie/Byrne’s run MJ and Jill were endangered by the same incident and Peter prioritized saving MJ over Jill.

“You're still dealing with your miscarriage Mary Jane? Sorry, I got to talk Paul Stacy out of a hate group right now.”

Get fucked.

I’ve read PPSM #82-83 as well. In fact they were among my earliest ever comic books I re-read them several years ago.

This is yet another MASSIVE distortion of events.

Peter didn’t talk Paul out of a hate group (specifically the anti-mutant hate group the Friends of Humanity) at the expense of helping MJ deal with their miscarriage.

Peter and MJ were due to meet for a counselling session to talk about the miscarriage. However, Paul was being targeted by a mutant who literally told Peter she was going to murder him. Peter went to prevent that from happening but a bad bout of vertigo (brought on presumably by an encounter with Morbius the Living Vampire) caused Peter to cling to a wall, his life hanging in the balance.

That’s why he missed the therapy session that one time.

He wasn’t goofing off. He wasn’t lecturing Paul about why racism is bad m’kay. He was trying to save his life and then save his own life.

So a quintessential example of distorting the facts and removing things from context.

“Peter Shut Her Out of Every Existential Crisis”

No he didn’t. There were multiple times he questioned if he was doing the right thing, if he was making a difference, etc and talked to her about it

Even if he did shut her out that would be conflict which is what you fucking want in your dramatic story

WOW! Moments of intense mental/emotional strife involve people not acting in a healthy manner, including in regards to their romantic relationships?????? Who’d have THOUGHT!

“Not only were Mary Jane's problems put on a back burner, whenever Peter had a problem, he shut MJ out.”

MJ herself understood some of her problems had to be put on a back burner for the greater good that Spider-Man performed for the world at large.

And the times he shut her out amounted to…I don’t even know…maybe once just prior to the Clone Saga when he was grappling with intense grief and pain and was on the verge of a mental breakdown. Then just went ahead and had the mental breakdown.

“During their marriage, Peter had huge life-changing moments. The first was when his parents came back from the dead only to be revealed as impostors then his Aunt May suffered a life-threatening stroke.”

Yes. These were definitely the first life-changing moments that occurred after he married Mary Jane.

Being buried alive, encountering Venom, going back to school, his best friend turning to villainy and becoming a reserve Avenger certainly wouldn’t have been life changing at all.

“Spider-Man's answer? Give up on being Peter Parker and embracing the spider.”

I’ll take ‘What if grief and emotional trauma’ for 500 Alex!!!!!!!

Honest to Christ. The story makes everything clear as crystal. This is an entirely believable response to trauma, it’s just literalized because the person experiencing it lives a double life already and has super powers.

“The writers were probably going for dark and moody, but looking back at it, it was a lot of whining.”

He lived his whole life in the wake of losing his parents, then had those wounds reopened when he learned they were not dead, then gradually grew to love and trust them, was stabbed in the back by them, found out they were imposters and his parents had been dead after all, then saw them violently die right in front of him, then learned this was perpetuated by his best friend, then the woman who raised him had a stroke and fell into a coma.

That’s not WHINING, that’s an insane amount of grief and pain you fucking idiot.

No human being could cope with that amount of trauma and NOT express their pain in some form. This isn’t him complaining he missed a date or can’t get his studies done. This is his heart being ripped out and stomped on in front of him repeatedly!

“Also, he totally abandoned his wife. Which is a dick move. Hey Pete, she might be someone to support you through your recent loss.”

HE WAS HAVING A MENTAL BREAKDOWN YOU DUMBASS!

NO ONE thinks clearly or logically when they are in that kind of emotional/mental distress. He was grieving the loss of THREE parents for fuck’s sake!

“Somewhere, a grief councilor just got a huge erection.”

This shithead clearly doesn’t know the meaning of the word grief.

“Then came the Clone Saga where Peter was convinced he was actually a clone of the real Spider-Man. He was too wrapped up on the fact that his past was potentially a lie that he couldn't see the good things in his life. He was married. Had a child on the way. None of this registered with him because of all the clones around putting his past into question.”

Peter Parker’s belief system was that a clone is NOT a real human being, it is a creature that is less than human and that in being a clone you have no real identity or right to life, you are just a freak. MJ echoes these sentiments in ASM #400.

Ben Reilly, who had all of Peter’s memories became distraught upon learning he was a clone. That occurred circa 1975 when Peter was approximately 22 years old and hadn’t finished college yet. Ben literally grieved for himself and that the memories in his head were a pretense, a life that was not his. He contemplated killing Peter and taking his life. He became borderline suicidal and anti-social. This went on for years during which he pushed himself to the very edge self-destructively.

Putting aside how the original intent was for Ben to be the REAL Peter Parker, Ben’s behaviours display what a dark and dangerous place Peter could’ve gone to had he been in Ben’s position.

The intent of the Jackal and Norman Osborn in orchestrating the Clone Saga was to shatter Peter’s sense of identity. The Jackal wanted to do that in 1975 with a 22 year old Peter. Norman however knew the blow would hurt Peter much more when he had more to lose and so delayed it until 1995 when Peter would’ve been about 27 years old, had more of a career, longer and deeper connections to his loved ones, a wife and a baby on the way.

When he finally pulled the trigger Peter had also only recently recovered from a terrible mental breakdown, lost Aunt May, been falsely accused of murder, had his sense of identity further damaged by yet more clones of himself appearing and learned that he and MJ’s baby might have serious health problems if he was a clone.

In fact MJ’s first reaction upon learning Peter was a clone was to grip her tummy and express concern for her baby. And remember she directly told him a clone isn’t a real person.

When put in context this caused Peter to have a SECOND mental breakdown. Entirely UNDERSTANDABLY!

This wasn’t a case of appreciating all he had because from his point of view being a clone meant he’d LOST all that. That he COULDN’T have that because he was less than human and not the real person that life belonged to.

If BEN reacted that way when he believed he was a clone then logically OF COURSE Peter was going to take it much, much, much worse.

“It should also be pointed out that during this period, Mary Jane's life was at risk and she was being stalked, again. This time by a clone. However, Peter was once again nowhere to be seen.”

Oh my fucking…HE HAD BEEN ARRESTED!

He wasn’t around because he was literally incarcerated in prison. Breaking out risked exposing his identity and thus endangering MJ and the baby. He also didn’t KNOW she was being stalked. When he found out in ASM #401 he broke out of jail and sought to find her. Later when Ben offered to take his place in jail Peter went on the hunt for MJ’s stalker, his clone Kaine whom he ALSO suspected as the guy who framed him.

Gee, proactively seeking out the guy threatening your wife and who might’ve framed you?

What a shitty husband, it’s not like that’s an entirely practical consideration to take or anything.

“In Heindsight...”

Oh this outta be good

“I could go over every other moment where Peter treated his wife like crap,”

Except he rarely did and the examples you’ve brought up do not hold up to scrutiny in the slightest because you are a clown show of an analyst.

“but those are the huge ones.”

No they aren’t, see above.

“Looking back at the upset of 2007, it's clear that anyone who got mad didn't actually read any of the stories written while Peter and Mary Jane were married.”

That’s so very rich coming from this dipshit, see above.

“Even then, over the past decade there has been a plethora of great Spider-Man stories.”

That’s true.

Agent Venom by Rick Remender

Carnage Family Feud

Carnage USA

Half of Scarlet Spider by Chris Yost

Bits of Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider by Peter David

AXIS Hobgoblin

AXIS Carnage

Carnage by Gerry Conway

Silk by Robbie Thompson

Superior Foes of Spider-Man

ASM: Renew Your Vows

The issue where Flash Thompson lost his legs

The story regarding the Rhino and his girlfriend

Spider-Man 2099 by Peter David

Notice how none of that stuff focuses upon 616 Peter Parker.

Because between 2008-2018 there were no good stories focussing upon 616 Peter Parker.

At best there were mediocre stories focussing upon the pathetic man-child that was Spider-Man in name only.

“In fact, I'd even argue that Dan Slott's run on Spider-Man has contained some of the best Spider-Man stories of the past two decades.”

And you’d just further confirm yourself to be a moron who doesn’t have the first warm shit of a clue about how to analyse stories if you did.

“I can't think or a stellar Spider-Man run past 198 until Slott's run.”

ASM by JMS+Romita Junior

Sensational by Sacasa

Spec by DeMatteis+Buscema

Spec by DeMatteis+Ross

Marvel Knights by Mark Millar

Bits of Peter Parker: Spider-Man by Paul Jenkins

Hypothetically though let’s say they weren’t stellar.

They would still be OBJECTIVELY better than Dan Slott. Like who’s mothers did Michelinie, DeFalco or any of the above guys murder for you to claim Slott was better than them.

None of those guys:

Had Peter become a paparazzi photographer

Had Aunt May claim she was disappointed in Peter for not supporting her the night Uncle Ben died

Had Doc Ock try to rape Mary Jane

Created a clear cut Mary Sue to upstage Spidey in his own book

Turned Spider-Man into Diet Iron Man

Killed off a Ditko-era character for no other reason beyond a shock death. Except Mark Millar but the character was extremely minor

“Next to JMS' run, Slott has been the best Spider-Man writer in decades.”

Again, notice how he CONVENIENTLY neglected to bring up stuff from the JMS run when MJ and the marriage was written the best.

His criteria for judging MJ literally JUST included:

ASM by Michelinie run from 1989-1994

ASM by DeMatteis in 1994

Conway’s Spec/Web runs from 1988-1989

Spec #226 by DeFalco in 1995

Mackie’s PPSM run from 1997

The Mackie/Byrne run from 1999-2001

That was it.

He stated the marriage lasted between 1987-2007 but his analysis halted at 2001. He’s leaving out 6 goddam years worth of material in addition to ALL the other material he conveniently ignored before then.

“Where to Go From Here?

That raises some interesting questions. Will Peter and Mary Jane tie the knot again? It seems like Marvel is marrying characters off again (Colossus and Kitty Pryde as well as Gambit and Rogue) so that's promising.

Another is the promising thing is that the alternate reality series Renew Your Vows has been doing very well.

The last point is the main reason why they nixed the marriage to begin with: Needing a Spider-Man younger readers can relate with.”

The main reason they nixed it was because Quesada was butthurt Gwen died in 1973 and that MJ got to marry him instead.

“For the past number of years they have been promoting the hell out of Miles Morales, the "Ultimate" Spider-Man. They have been grooming him to be the young Spidey that they want for younger fans.”

Maybe don’t use the term ‘grooming’ in the context of a teenage character there buddy.

“While that doesn't mean Peter and MJ are destined to get married again, hopefully they will allow Peter to at least grow up a little.”

I see.

Marriage = bad because it makes him unrelatable to the kids. But also this dipshit wants Peter to ‘grow up a little’…which is what he had done by marrying MJ in the first place.

“However, let me say this: Doing what's expected doesn't necessarily make for a good story, it's the unexpected.”

Why don’t you ask Star Wars and Game of Thrones fans what they think about that buddy?

“That's what made Slott's run on Spider-Man so great.”

That’s true. Nobody expected Slott would have Doc Ock masturbate in Peter’s body. Nobody expected him to drag out our suffering for as long as he did. Nobody expected he’d invoke such a juvenile idea as Norman Osborn becoming carnage.

“Let's hope Nick Spencer continues that tradition.’

Fuck the unexpected. Just give me competency.

#Spider-Man #mjwatsonedit #Mary Jane Watson #mj watson #Mary Jane Watson Parker #Peter Parker #ben Reilly #Brand New Day #Dan Slott #Clone Saga #submission

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