#feminine lesbians who like other feminine women can still be gnc and have complicated gender bla bla etc etc etc

[cruelsister-moved2]

I was wondering if you could elaborate on what you mean by you don’t think femme4femme is a thing? Like do you not agree with it or not think people have that experience, or is a historical or terminological disagreement?

no like theres plenty of feminine women who want to fuck other feminine women it just doesnt really have much to do with the butch/femme subculture and like most people who are going out of their way to announce that they're femme4femme are just doing it in a defensive like uhmm i only like pretty cute soft pink uwu girlsss 🥺 way thats just terminally irritating 😭 ur the default majority already so it like comes hand in hand with this idea that butch4femme couples are like somehow privileged and proximal to heterosexuality or something ... and to me in that context femme is just meaning like that ur a feminine woman in purely aesthetic terms so like idrc if ur using that word to describe who u wanna bang in the appropriate context, but i dont think it constitutes a femme identity in the butchfemme way which literally only exists in the first place out of courting rituals between butch and femme women. so yeah its historical/terminological for sure, hopefully what i said makes sense<3

i do think its worth considering like how internalised lesbophobia and the stigmatisation of gnc women etc might be affecting this and like i say, a lot of the like aggressively femme4femme ppl are young gays w a lot of internalised lesbophobia who need to make it clear that theyre like an acceptable pretty soft whatever lesbian not like those dykes, but thats not me saying that ur problematic for not fancying butches or something - like were the roles reversed id be the exact same bc feminine women just arent what's attractive to me n thats fine. but the reason a lot of our hackles go up at that term is because through experience we've come to associate it with dehumanisation of our partners and dismissal of our desire, etc. a lot of ppl have some kind of variation and maybe like really androgynous girls or all sorts of girls who are both feminine and masculine or whatever whereas i feel like if ur out the gate dismissive of anyone whos not hyperfeminine that is just to me more likely a sign that uve got some stuff to deal with. but thats for u & like ill never dismiss someone purely based on who theyre attracted to thats crazy but if ur framing it in a way thats clearly defensive against proximity to the gnc women in ur community or something then yeah i dont think you have any right to the subculture which they built and defended as a safe space from people exactly like u!! i hope that makes sense and any follow up qs are totally welcome if i said anything that confused u or u dont agree, i hope i dont come off hostile or anything 🥺 also i just realised i have a really bad habit of oscillating between second and third person when i start talking about an abstract group so jic im not referring to YOU, anon but to like a vague ye <3

[lockandkeyhyena]

as someone who’s followed ur content for awhile, this entire situation just seems.. kinda stupid? like people would benefit from actual communication instead of just looking away and such.

i say this as a lesbian: i was previously a twitter user, left a little before the “tumblr migration” in fact. and yeah, twitter definitely has “against mspec lesbian” stuff, and joining tumblrbshocked me. seeing a community so supportive of mspec lesbians was confusing, weren’t they “wrong”? lesbiphobic? enbyphobic? etc, etc, etc. i felt awkward saying anything though, so i didn’t reblog or anything, but sometimes i’d read through them. i had realized i.. never took a moment to read about the other side, never looked at their perspective on things, just that they were “bad” and they were “harmful”.

after all this time, i’ll say it. i still don’t exactly *get* mspec gays! they’re so complicated even for me and as a lesbian i can’t understand truly, but there is one thing i’ve processed: why does it matter? where is the harm? sure, if they were forcing labels onto others (and yeah, some where forcing labels onto nonbinary lesbians, but that was SOME.) and being assholes about it, yeah i’d see harm, but if anything.. the rest of the community is the harmful one. we’re policing identities, we’re telling people how they’re allowed to feel comfortable.

nonbinary people don’t like being put in a box: they’re not a neat third gender (fourth gender? does intersex count?) they’re a spectrum of people all with relations to gender, to themselves. they can be masculine, feminine, even gnc. it doesn’t matter to other people, nobody else can control their relationship to gender, because it’s special to them.

people who identify with multiple genders or who swap between genders don’t like being put in a box: they could be “non-men” or “non-women”, but they could be both, they could be neither—anything! they shouldn’t have to or need to make a choice to what they are, that’s the entire point of their identity.

fuck, the entire point of the lgbt community is that we don’t like being put in a box!! we didn’t want to be straight or cis or whatever, we wanted to be us!!! so why should we box mspec gays??

i guess this is an apology to mspec gays for my behavior in the past, for echoing the voices of those policing their identity. they didn’t deserve that, i should have known better and hopefully i know better now.

hey, this is incredibly lovely of you anon! thanks for this ask

[hard--headed--woman]

Hi, sorry to bother you- how did you talk to your family about radfem principles? My mom is a liberal feminist. Particularly on the trans rights issue, I don't know how to feel anymore. One of my friends was significantly more happy when they came out as trans, and so I feel like I see the 'mental health' aspect before my own eyes. I think none of the trans people I know would ever be a danger to women in bathrooms, either. But that being said, I've never had a feminine feeling in my life and I don't think I'm non-binary either (although maybe the knowledge that I'm not is the self-identification??). I think maybe the difference between a gnc woman and a trans man is just profound discomfort with your body from a young age, and maybe then it can be appropriate to live as a woman. But I also don't think lesbians should be shamed for not wanting to have sex with a trans woman either. I'm very stuck at this point and I'd like to talk to my mom about it without looking like a bigot (but if you have any of your own comments to add on this ideological tension please give them).

Hello! I'm glad you came to talk to me about it. I'll try my best to help you, you can send me another ask if you have something to add after that!

I guess it was easier for me since my mom (this amazing woman) shares many of my radfem beliefs. I wouldn't call her a radfem because she's not involved in activism and still disagrees with some radfems ideas, but she agrees with me on trans/gender issues (in the radfem way, not the conservative way), prostitution, porn, and a lot of other things. She has always supported JK Rowling, criticized gender ideology, etc. So when I realized I was gender critical, I just started to talk about it with her and there was nothing complicated. I don't talk about it with my dad, because he's anti gender too but I know we would end up disagreeing and arguing over many gender critical subjects.

The only person I kind of had to introduce my ideas too is my little sister. She has a lot of radfem beliefs, and is critical of a lot of things about gender ideology (she doesn't think lesbians can like trans women for example) so it was easier too, but I still have to be careful because she is still pro trans. To be able to talk about it with her, I just randomly started to ask questions about gender, transgenderism, gender ideology, etc. I would ask her why we should allow trans women in our bathrooms, why was it considered ok to allow kids to transition, why made a trans woman/man a woman/man, etc... And it leads us to conversations, debates, which can be very interesting !

The reason why I say that is because I think that's the best way to start talking about gender ideology/radical feminism with someone who's a TRA/libfem. You can calmly ask questions, say some facts, or innocent sentences. "Calmly" is very important, talk about it like it's just a random conversation and you're just genuinely curious, not like you want to argue. They probably won't think you're a bigot if you just seem genuinely interested and ready to keep the chat friendly, and the debate will be much more pleasant and interesting.

Sometimes (many of my friends) people start agreeing with radical feminism/gender critical feminism thanks to these debates, or they at least learn about the awful sides of their ideology and start to stand up against these, and that's very important ! I feel like we should all have more conversations aboutit with our family, friends...

For the rest, well, I am a GNC lesbian (not out to my family) and I think there's no objective difference between a trans man and a lesbian/GNC woman/ or just woman. There are no criterias, it's just a choice. You decide if you want to identify as trans or not.

Which means women can feel profound discomfort with their bodies, having gender dysphoria, hating being lesbians, etc... without identifying as trans. Some women identify as trans men without feeling any of this. There are no rules. Being trans is nothing but a choice.

What makes you a woman or a man is your biological sex. That's why lesbians can't like trans women - trans women are men.

And to finish this, I believe that yes, at first it can feel better to come out as trans but I don't feel like it really last. At the beginning, yeah, but I think then it makes things worse, because you realize that you will never really be a woman/man no matter how hard you try. Nothing will never be enough. And for trans people, this idea and feeling can be hard to handle. Just my opinion, of course !

Anyway, I don't know your mom, but I think you could just start asking questions, giving your opinion when she replies, calmly, or even play dumb - that works everytime. See where the conversation go then, and you might be able to talk about everything after that.

My box is open of you have other things to say <3

[angelicfangs]

gender rambling under the cut

i really don't think i've ever met/seen another person who has the same experience with/outlook on gender that i do.

with some things that i experience physical dysphoria around, there is legitimately no possible way to correct it in a way that would satisfy me, and even if there was, i really want to avoid any unnecessary medical procedures. i am going to get surgery for one thing, which will help, but the fact that i have to get it done at all bothers me, as does the fact that i'll have scars and my results may not look natural.

even just with the way i think about things, i feel disconnected from some other trans/nb people i know. i've found some people in the lesbian community who i can relate to, particularly butches and those with a complicated relationship to gender. but as awesome as lesbians are, i'm not one, and it's still not quite the same.

i see so many trans/nb people talking about gender euphoria, the rightness they feel with transitioning socially, medically, or otherwise. i'm happy for them, but hearing people talk about expressing themselves in more masculine/feminine ways rings hollow for me. i don't like putting effort into "masculinity" or "femininity" because none of it is real. the more you try to define what masculinity or femininity is, the less you're able to. there was a period of my life where i performed femininity, and there was also a time where i performed masculinity. i was uncomfortable regardless. i wish that gender and gender roles didn't exist at all. it would be so much easier for people to know what they really like without social coercion. if someone needed or wanted to transition, they could, but that would have no bearing on behavior or anything else. i tried going to a support group for trans/nb adults, and i cried so hard afterwards because i felt so alone and unconnected to them. so different.

i've also heard some people (usually in bad faith, and often transphobic) suggest that AFAB people only ever want to transition because of a desire to escape misogyny, or because they believe that women can't be gnc. i've thought about that for so long, and even addressed it in therapy, and i know that that just isn't true for me. i think gnc people are absolutely so cool and amazing, no matter what their sex, gender, or expression. there are some truly amazing women in my life who i think the world of, and who are powerful, kind, and feminist. i don't shave or wear makeup, and i do my best to be conscious of the ways our patriarchal and misogynistic culture affects me. in some ways i wish i WAS a masculine woman, because then at least i would know who i am. and i could find other people like me. but even though i stopped performing gender (to the best of my conscious ability, stuff like this can be insidious after all) years ago, i'm not happy and i'm not satisfied.

i've worked out that some level of physical transition is necessary for me, but not exactly what or when. but i think the bigger thing that weighs on me is just the absolute, all-consuming nature of gender in every aspect of our culture. everything is gendered, and i hear people enforce gender roles every single day. it feels crushing and inescapable, like a perpetual break of a tsunami.

[rantingcrocodile]

I’m still coping really badly with realising I’m bisexual :/ I guess it’s difficult because I thought I was a lesbian for so long but I’m just worried women won’t be as into me anymore. I even brought up thinking I might be bi with a girlfriend a few years ago but she basically said I wasn’t because I wasn’t “like them” and if I was bi I wouldn’t be as masculine looking as I am and I would be 100% sure and that the feelings I wondered if I had for men in the past was just comphet and then a friend I discussed stuff with one time said that mastribating to thoughts of sex with men didn’t make me bi if it made me feel bad afterwards. I wish I could get the time I spent feeling guilty and trying to push those feelings away back

No wonder it's so difficult for you, having those biphobic words spinning around in your mind.

If you're told, "You can't be bisexual, you're not like them," where the them is a sneer, then you won't want to associate yourself with a group that you've internalised are "bad." Your ex-girlfriend was simply biphobic, and preferred to believe that you were a lesbian dealing with internalised homophobia than be faced with the fact that she was happily dating a bisexual that she knew was a good person.

If you're told the lie that only lesbians can be GNC, then you're going to struggle with your bisexuality, too. Other bisexual women have been convinced that they're "non binary" or trans because they believe that bisexual women can only feminine in presentation. It's one of the reasons why you see so many bisexuals around on Tumblr with "bigender" included in their posts, because in this current environment, sexuality and gender labelling is so complicated.

Considering that you believed that you were a lesbian, it was only natural to feel guilt after being aroused by thoughts of men. Back then, you would have had your same-sex attraction "figured out" and you thought that you had a support network there - even if you only felt a connection to lesbians in general and felt a general sense of community that you could have access to - then having opposite-sex attraction meant that you couldn't have that community and support and understanding. Especially when the prevalent belief that "GNC women have to be lesbians" there, making it even more confusing, mixed in with your own obvious preference for other women.

The thing that you really need to realise is that your worry about women not being into you as much is a pointless worry to have.

Any women who would be into you imagining that you're a lesbian, but who wouldn't want you simply for being bisexual, are women who aren't worthy of you in the first place. Why should you want women who wouldn't want you for you, who wouldn't respect you, who wouldn't simply love you as an individual? Why are you worried about losing women like that?

You shouldn't be worried about that. You should be glad that the trash has taken itself out before you waste any of your precious time and effort on them.

Wishing for your time back is also a waste of energy. You can't get back the time that you've already spent. What you can have is a more positive future, where you recognise the truth about yourself, and every day work on accepting yourself for who you are. It's a neutral fact about you, it doesn't make you a good person or a bad person, it simply is.

It's going to take more time, but when you put that work in and reach a better place, you'll look back to now and be proud of all the work you put in, as well as how much you'll have improved. Small steps at a time. You've got this.

[tea-and-la]

You’re right, it is very annoying how some people (usually a certain brand of Zukka shippers) insist that Zuko HAS to be gay and Toph HAS to be a lesbian.

I mean we all know that the only reason that they think Zuko HAS to be gay is so that people won’t ship him with women instead of with Sokka.

I also find that a lot of Zukkas will insist that Mai, Ty Lee, Toph, and sometimes even Suki and/or Yue all HAVE to be lesbians. You know what all of those girls have in common? They all canonically dated or expressed romantic interest in Zuko or Sokka. Connect the dots.

Obviously not everyone who has those headcanons is like that. People can and should be allowed to headcanon characters however they want. Personally I view Zuko as bisexual and Toph as straight (none of the popular F/F Toph ships appeal to me and I generally find that portrayals of her as LGBT aren’t to my tastes because some - not all - people who headcanon her as such will often exaggerate her masculinity/androgyny far beyond the extent to which it exists in canon in order to make her the “man” in the relationship as well as ignore that the reasons for her gender nonconformity are heavily tied to her trauma and disability and have very little to do with sexuality, which is something that squicks me out. Also dislike how society at large seems to really hate the idea of GNC women being with men because that means they’ll be forced to reconsider their perception of gender roles within M/F relationships). However, those are just my interpretations.

"it is very annoying how some people (usually a certain brand of Zukka shippers) insist that Zuko HAS to be gay and Toph HAS to be a lesbian."

yes exactly! i'm all for people having their head canons, but there is no reason to shame others because they have a different one than you. it reeks of privilege because no head canon is more "right" than another. and also, why are we gatekeeping characters from having other lgbtq+ identities that other fans can identify with? seems very exclusionary to me.

i think the thing that bothers me about zookas is that they will take scenes like the jinko fountain scene and use it as "proof" that he's gay. bc zuko hesitated at first and also because he pulled away and ran away. like, there's so many other reasons for that, including the one that's actually, ya know, canon. zuko was nervous. it's his first teenaged date, so ofc he would be a bit awkward about it. not to mention that he is a decent enough person to not want to complicate a girl's feelings for him because she doesn't know the real him. he even says in the tale of the earth kingdom novelization that he likes this girl. and he says in canon that he had a nice time. that's not to say that people can't head canon what they want, but to say things like "there's no het explanation for this." there's literally several, actually.

another thing that i've seen is zookas use the "zuko gay" in response to zutaras, but then they'll also simultaneously ship m*iko. and it's just so obviously a bias/convenience thing because if you hc him as gay (which is fine), why would you like a ship of him with a woman??? just say you hate zutara and go.

back to toph, because i've been meaning to speak on this for a while. so toph is my favorite character and i head canon her as nonbinary and pansexual. it is actually partially through my appreciation of toph's character that i realized that i was nonbinary. so when certain people gatekeep and confine her to one identity because of stereotypical traits and behaviors, i take it very personal.

none of toph's popular F/F ships appeal to me either, but i do see her as LGBTQ+. i have to agree that the way she is masculinized does cause me significant discomfort, especially wrt to people who do so to limit her "desirability" for aang.

i also find that a lot of people will head canon aang as nonbinary or GNC (i do as well). so in the case of toph being lesbian, she could potentially still be attracted to aang. so why then, do people act like it would just be a het relationship? it doesn't make sense. they're both queer as fuck. not to mention that i've had to endure months on twitter with people saying that kateeng is wlw (which gives me the HIVES) because aang is nonbinary. so suddenly, when it's taang, aang's a straight man and/or toph would have to be straight. these people talk themselves into circles i swear. it's just easier to admit that you want aang only for katara than to sit here and come up with flimsy excuses.

i wish people would just admit that they don't think toph is feminine enough for aang. i've seen so many shitty takes about how toph would be abusive to aang and always hurt him, or that they would argue a lot (which is comical because kateeng canonically has 3 big fights.) it's just upsetting how toph is treated and perceived by certain people in the fandom to push their agendas.

for me personally, i see aang and toph as nonbinary pan. so i see their relationship pretty much free of gender roles and they are equals. they already have a good foundation for childhood friends to lovers. i just don't get why people hate taang so much and would instead rather invest time in a ship with a side character from ONE comic (no offense to any tophl*ngs out there, but the ship literally gives me not one fuzzy feeling.) in lieu of her best friend that she spends two seasons with, has multiple interactions with in the comics, etc. i feel like this is mainly because toph isn't perceived as "shippable" and is cast to the side, which sucks because she's my favorite character.

[army-of-mai-lovers]

Re: misogyny in atla fandom post. I’m a butch/gnc woman and there’s so few representation for women like me. I really relate to toph and admire her for being androgynous and masculine but still being a woman. She shows that there’s no “wrong” way to be a woman and that you can reject gendered expectations and still be female. She’s the only character I’ve ever been able to relate to for this. I feel like it’s kind of misogynistic when people HC her as a trans guy or non binary with they/them pronouns. I’m all for HCing characters as trans, but with toph it feels weird.

She’s constrained by the expectations put upon her for being a girl in a patriarchal society and also being disabled, and how those two intersect. But her acceptance of being disabled & and a girl and breaking the stereotypes pushed upon her for those facets of her identity is the whole point! And as a disabled gnc woman, I feel like stripping her of her womanhood bc she’s masculine/androgynous is the same as stripping her of her disability because she’s strong. Idk

This is a really interesting perspective, anon! Outside of tumblr, I’m a prospective gender studies minor, and in my gender studies classes we have this practice called situating. Basically, I explain who I am, so you know where I’m coming from. Esp wrt things like race, gender, and sexuality, you can read and learn and listen to other people, but you’ll only ever truly know your own experience, and it’s important for people to know that’s where your perspective on a certain debate is coming from. So, hi, I’m Arthur, I’m an afab nonbinary person who uses they/them pronouns, my gender expression is very much in a period of flux because I don’t have the ability to socially or medically transition as much as I’d like, so, at least for right now, most people interpret me as a sometimes gnc cis woman. Because I’m most often interpreted as a cis girl, even though that is not who I am at all, I experience misogyny, and that is unfortunately part of my trans experience. That doesn’t give me the authority to speak over women at all, but I do think it was a large part of me noticing the misogyny in this fandom and deciding to write what I did (and I’m so glad it resonated with you!) All of that colors the way I view gnc characters, as well as trans/nonbinary characters, and misogyny, within fandom and without. 

So, now that you understand where my thoughts are coming from, here they are. I definitely think it’s transphobic to hc Toph as a trans guy if you are not transmasc yourself. I’ve never seen trans guy hcs for Toph, but the idea of cis ppl equating this canonically cis girl character to someone who is unequivocally, indisputably, a guy, makes me super uncomfy. If there’s a trans guy out there who really relates to Toph and wants to create and develop that hc in a way that works for you, be my guest, but I do not have the authority or the desire to make trans guy Toph hcs. 

As for the nonbinary thing... I will admit, they/them Toph hcs make me feel seen, probably the same way you feel seen by Toph as an unapologetically androgynous/masculine cis girl. I answered some asks a couple weeks ago about lesbian hcs, and in that I talked about how since both lesbians and bi girls are underrepresented in media, hcs that might make one group feel seen and valued are gonna make another group feel erased, and I’m not really sure how to resolve that. The same goes for hcs around androgynous afab characters: butch women and afab* nby folks have so little representation that hcs that make one group feel seen are going to make another group feel erased. As a afab nonbinary person who uses they/them pronouns, who has never connected with any concept of womanhood despite sometimes having a pretty femme gender expression, I do relate to Toph a whole lot. I’ve also had to navigate (and am still navigating!) a minefield of gendered expectations in a patriarchal society, and talking and listening to and reading about other trans people, it seems to be a pretty integral part of the trans experience (not that there is one sole trans experience, we’re all very different, but that’s a topic for another time). The gender binary is, after all, a central feature of Western white supremacist patriarchal constructions of gender, and if you deviate in any way, whether it’s through being gender nonconforming, or through being trans/nonbinary, you’re probably going to have to fight really hard to exist and survive and feel confident in your body and your expression, because society is constantly sending you the message that you are deviant and thus not worthy. And it’s nice to think of your favorite character as having some of the same experiences you do. 

I will say, I see they/them Toph headcanons more often than I see they/them Katara or they/them Yue, and I’d encourage people to really dig deep and think about why they’re more comfortable hcing an androgynous character as being nonbinary than they would be a more obviously feminine character (especially since nonbinary folk come in all gender expressions). I also would just love to see more transfem hcs! People for whatever reason seem way more comfortable hcing male characters as trans guys than they do hcing female characters as trans girls (and the reason is transmisogyny--Mae @transtenzin made a post about this a couple months ago about how most transfem atla hcs are characters like Smellerbee, while transmasc hcs can center around more major characters like Zuko or Sokka--a wonderful post that I would link to if tumblr’s search function weren’t absolute shit.) 

But at the end of the day, I am going to have to disagree with you on thinking of nonbinary Toph hcs as misogynistic, because I know as a disabled afab nonbinary person myself, I’ve dealt with a lot of the same struggles that Toph deals with in the show, and I’m sure there are a lot of other afab nonbinary folks who feel the same way. However, I understand feeling frustrated by people hcing a canonically androgynous female character as nonbinary. I hope what I’ve said here can offer you a little insight into the other side of this, and I so appreciate you offering me insight into your side. 

Another thing to note: while I haven’t seen trans guy Toph hcs, I have seen people hc Toph as a he/him lesbian. He/him lesbians are of course a valued part of our community, and I applaud any and all he/him lesbian Toph hcs. Pronouns =/= gender. 

Tl;dr don’t hc Toph as a trans guy unless you are a trans guy and even then I would tread lightly, gender and transness and representation is complicated and I’m not entirely sure how to resolve conflicts between different groups of marginalized people who are trying to find rep in opposing hcs of the same character, and imo hcing Toph as nonbinary is not misogynistic (but my opinion is not the final word on any subject!) Also, we stan he/him lesbians. 

*amab nby folks of course also receive very little rep, probably even less than afab nby folks, and that is a very important conversation to have, but seeing as 1) this ask was about hcs for an afab character, and 2) I am not amab and therefore very unqualified to lead a conversation about hcing certain characters as amab or the larger field of amab nby rep, I thought it best to focus on afab nonbinary people in this post. 

[banghwa]

Nb ask anon here, tysm for answerring the ask about how u came to terms with ur gender, it's always insightful to see what other trans people have to say about their experiences even if I cant relate to everything u said, I guess for me I started to notice that I wanted to present more masc than i used to, I've 'been' a cis girl all my life and a rather girly one to be honest (although I think part of that is because I've been forced to do so).

But when people call me women or girl smth just.. doesnt sound right to me to be honest, like I know I'm not a man but a woman seems also kinda.... "strong", I just want to put wlw as my gender to be honest ajsjkssks I know that doesnt make sense but it's the only thing I know for sure in my life and also they/them pronouns are cool too I guess lol but anything besides that seems so alien to me, like for example my name, it's not that I dislike it but I've always been reluctant to search for a new one, it's like taking a step in a direction, THAT direction u know what I mean

Ugh then there's the whole presentation problem of like I kinda like to look fem but not for certain people but I definitely wanna look more masc or even gnc, like I want people to look at me and not "be able" to assume what I am u know but also sometimes girly things are pretty so fml

Anyways this gender shit is so complicated jules like it takes so much experimenting and shit and I'm just like ugh why cant I just KNOW things right now

(Sorry for the rant but u just seemed very trustworthy and helpful in the 1st ask)

omg pls dont apologize, im more than happy that your trust me enough to talk to me about something to personal <3 but yess i rly love hearing how everyone defines their gender its so interesting how we're all so different but also the same, its very comforting i feel. (answered under the cut bcs it got long lol)

thats actually really similar to how i started exploring my gender! i am a very feminine person but when i started figuring out my sexuality i also started realizing how much i disliked being read as feminine by other people despite liking being feminine. and how much i liked more masculine compliments and indentifiers. i started out id-ing as a cis bi girl and then a bi nb guy and then bi trans guy and then gay nb and now nb lesbian so its BEEN a process lmao and i know how frustrating it is to feel like you dont have it all figured out or to think you have it figured out only for you to realize it doesnt quite fit anymore later on. it feels a lot like you have to restart the whole process, but in reality i think its more of a checkpoint, ya know? sometimes we have to make a lot of stops and try out a lot of things before we find something that fits and thats totally fine. for me it was like. when i realized i was not cis it felt like running as far away as i would from my agab and then slowly coming back to poke it with a stick kjgfhkj.

and its definetly so complicated when you feel like the terms you want to identify with are "contradictory," we don't really have the vocabulary in english to describe how we experience our gender properly most of the time and some things just dont fit and its hard to explain exactly *why* to someone who doesnt Get It. but maybe its partially a blessing in disguise, bcs it lets us really test things out and play around until it feels right. you can definetly id your gender as wlw, i personally describe my gender as "lesbian" bcs i feel thats the only thing that still ties me to "womanhood." i do get what you mean tho, it was really scary for me too to start using "contradictory" identifiers, like im a lesbian but i use he/they pronouns and i like presenting fem but i hate when people assume im a woman or straight because of it. it really is frustrating trying to figure all this out when everyone around you treats gender like something they get to project onto you and feeling like you need to play into that in order to feel "real." i still have a lot of trouble detatching my gender identity from other peoples assumptions and expectations, so it feels a bit hypocritical to try to give advice on that lol, but i think it all comes back to figuring out what *you* want first and foremost, having trusted people who you can talk to and experiment with, and seeing it as a learning opportunity more than a "goal" or "destination."

it definetly is so frustrating but you're not the only one <3 im sorry happy that you're taking the time to explore what feels right to you even though its daunting to admit that to yourself. some steps like trying a different name can ESPECIALLY be really challenging and scary and it takes so much courage to admit that thats even a potential, im so proud of you honey and i wish you all the best <33 im always here and happy to talk if you want to

[werevulvi]

I kinda just wanted to make a rant, to lay out why I feel so iffy about trans women and hopefully get a better understanding of my own feelings and what the fuck is brewing under that surface. There has to be a reason. This post is analytical drivel, not a debate, but by all means, feel free to respond or otherwise talk to me about this. Let's take it from the beginning and then go from there.

Part 1 Detransition:

So, I began detransitioning roughly 2 years ago. That's where my feelings about the trans community as a whole began to shift, and with that my feelings about trans women. At that time, I was still active in a truscum group and came out as detrans there, after having been known and looked up to as a trans man there for over a year. At first I was accepted, but when I started having doubts about wanting to get rid of my beard, and felt like I wanted to embrace my body hair and deep voice... people there started acting like shit towards me. They told me that my biological sex still being female did not matter, that I was essentially a man and had to detrans medically to be considered a woman again. That hurt badly.

Shortly after that, I was also told that because I was medically transitioned, trans women were "more female" than me. That was like the last drop that made the goblet pour over. Fuming, I started saying that I'm more of a woman than trans women can ever be, even if I keep a full beard, because they'll never be truly biologically female, no matter how much surgery they got. I was hurting by their cruel words, so I stuck it where it would hurt them the same. (I’ve always an “eye for an eye” sorta person.) That's when people started telling me that I hate trans women, but I felt like that was a misunderstanding. That I was just acting out, out of sadness, grief, anger, panic, and having my gender denied for the sake of validating trans women's genders.

But were they right?

Part 2 Gender critical thought:

Over time, I got exceedingly gender critical and fell into radblr. I also read/watched content that "exposed" transgenderism as a scam, most of which was articles and youtube videos from conservative right wing people, and Christians. I had joined an fb group for detransitioners, and the creator, a "born again" Christian detrans man, happily shared all the many sources he had on how transgender was all a scam from the start of its movement. I felt somewhat sick consuming those links, but probably equally intrigued. But at the same time, I kept a foot in the trans community, starving for attention, even though I was never good enough for them anymore, unless I lied and said I'm not a woman. What a sick twist of fate, I felt.

Part 3a Sexuality, from a lesbian view:

Sometime around that, I struggled with my sexuality and after a lot on inner search, I came to the conclusion I was a lesbian. I felt as though I was only attracted to the same sex as myself, including trans men, but felt nothing worth praising towards males, including trans women. That led to yet another rabbit hole that I tumbled down into. I became convinced that majority of trans women were lesbophobic predators, and I had some shit luck on dating apps. Most people who approached me there were gnc males; transvestites and trans women. I almost went on a date with a good-looking trans woman whom I had mistaken for female, because I felt guilty for having lost attraction to her the moment she told me she's trans and post-op. Luckily she canceled our date for unrelated reasons. I felt like because she was attractive to me before I knew she's trans, but felt completely uninterested in her after the fact, I couldn't possibly be attracted to trans women.

Part 3b Sexuality, from a bisexual view:

That, of course, is not necessarily a bad thing. But I kept asking myself why. Especially since I realised my error in my sexuality calculations, and upon correction discovered I'm actually bisexual after all. I still find women and transitioned females attractive, and in addition to that also men in general, and some vaguely transitioned males. Except from trans women. That odd little inconvenience stood out as a sore thumb which I couldn't stop scratching. Why? I kept asking myself. Why not trans women?

My question dug deeper than just to attraction. I don't think I feel iffy about trans women because I'm not attracted to them. I think it's the other way around.

I never had to convince myself to be attracted to trans men. I discovered early on in my own transition that some other trans men were really hot. That was it. I later on dated a trans man whom I was head over heals in love with. That confirmed it. I've been questioning my attraction to standard men and women far more than I ever questioned my attraction to trans men. It was that obvious, that clear. However, when it comes to trans women I was always the complete opposite. That no matter how I twisted and turned it, I only ever felt revulsion at the thought of being sexual or romantic with a trans woman. No matter how well or badly they passed, no matter how aesthetically pleasing or how charming their personalities.

I wanna clarify that I'm not at all forcing myself to be into trans women. I'm just trying to understand why, so that I'll no longer feel bad about my lack of attraction to them. Because I cannot accept things which I do not understand.

Part 3c Sexuality, digging for answers:

At first I thought, maybe I'm just not all that attracted to femininity. It's not like I typically get super into hyper-feminine natal women either, and fake tits and faces with a ton of plastic surgery has always made me queezy. No, I seem to have a strong preference for masculinity in partners, regardless if they're butches, other masc bi women, trans men or kinda standard masc natal men. So then it just kinda makes sense that trans women, whom are often hyper-feminine, just don't fit that image. Except... that one trans woman I almost went on a date with... she looked like a butch. I mistook her for a natal woman partly because she had short hair, no makeup and wore what looked like men's clothing, but I could see she had hips and tits, and her face looked naturally female. But I still wasn't into her, because she's trans.

Then I thought... okay, that one checks out, but maybe I'm just creeped out neo-vaginas? Yeah, that must be it! I'm almost equally creeped out by neo-penises too, but most trans men don't get bottom surgery anyway, so it hasn't been much on my mind. But then I thought: okay, but what about trans women who choose to not get bottom surgery then? I am attracted to dick. Nope, still uneasy at that thought. I started comparing men who are just very feminine, to trans women, and noticed yeah I don't actually feel half as iffy about men who are just feminine. A man in a dress and makeup can actually be very hot, to me. And I've always preferred long hair on men. But I prefer them still looking clearly male underneath that, although I don't mind a few androgynous features here and there. But I’m only into it if they don’t act like their affinity for femininity makes them women or non-binary, or if they’re feminine in a way that mocks or sexualises womanhood. So I’m not into tacky transvestites in over-sexualised lingerie. At least try to be tactful and elegant, please. So, it’s not male femininity per se that puts me off. If there’s any femininity I’m actually into, it’s male femininity. Because gender non-conformity is attractive to me. And I love the idea of being a strong female protector and girlboss of a gentle, delicate, feminine man. At least I like fantasising about that. (But enough about my daydreams.)

Part 4a Womanhood, biology and identity:

Somewhere after having gotten that far in my digging, I started getting close to finding my sore spot: trans women's view on womanhood.

As for myself, my own view of womanhood is completely detached from femininity. I'm just like... I can even have a full beard and bass voice, a flat and hairy chest, and still be a woman. Because I'm simply bio female. Trans women tend to very often think that they need to "pass" and with that comes a certain look: high voice, no facial hair, no body hair, big breasts, curvy hips, etc. All of which are features that I'm dysphoric about having on my own body, but admire in other natal women. But on trans women, it's like I feel uncomfortable about those kinda features on them. Like to me being a woman is just dealing with having developed that way, or not dealing with having developed that way. Where as for them it seems to be actually striving for developing that way, and I guess that causes my brain to short circuit. Cannot comprehend.

Part 4b Womanhood, fragility and validation:

My womanhood is kinda fragile. I admit that. I'm quite insecure as a woman, because of my transition and masculinity. I feel like most of my womanhood has been lost, which although I'm fine with, I still grieve. I grieve it because I was a bit of an idiot when I first transitioned and had not yet processed my trauma - not because I regret looking like a man. It's complicated, but basically... I feel as though my womanhood is hanging by a thread, which is my genitals, reproductive system and chromosomes; all of which are either mostly hidden or always invisible.

I'm often met with disbelief and disagreement. People either saying "You're not a woman because you can't possibly be female. You look too male." or "You're not a woman because you medically transitioned. You having a uterus is not enough to make you a woman." and it gets to me. And then there are trans women... some of whom do not even need to put on a wig to be instantly validated as women by just identifying as such. Others thinking that because I look like a man, they refuse to think of me as a woman. And that... pisses me off.

There have been a few trans women who in some utterly failed attempt at being supportive of me have said I'm like a nonbinary person who is half male and half female. That's not a lot better, but thanks for trying... I guess.

Part 4c Womanhood, dysphoria and misogyny:

I think that might be what gets to me about trans women. All of it. This entire list of things. That some of them are lesbophobic predators and have absurd claims of what being female is, that others mock womanhood, and yet others view themselves as somehow more female than I am. The genital factor and the slight creepiness of plastic surgery. Their view of womanhood as an identity and my view of it as a biological sex. I keep ending up in fights with trans women about these sorta things. I can't keep a lid on my frustrations no matter how hard I try to just see them as people with dysphoria and opinions that are different from mine. I cannot find any fucking solidarity between myself, as a dysphoric natal woman, and trans women. I feel like they're making mockery of my sex, my dysphoria and my struggles with misogyny, as well as making me feel like shit about something that I love about my body: my transition. I have no common grounds with them, and whenever they try to find solidarity in stuff like misogyny, I feel like they don't even know what the fuck they're talking about. I have a huge bone to pick with them, on multiple levels, and I don't even know where to start or where it ends.

Part 4d Womanhood, jealousy:

But a lot of it comes from jealousy. And I think it's mutual. I'm jealous of their ability to access female only spaces despite being male, which I cannot access despite being female. I'm jealous of their ability to be accepted as women. And on the other side, I think they're jealous of my reproductive ability, and my female socialisation, which I'm not like super hyped about myself, although I do love my pussy (she gives me great orgasms.) I'm jealous of their ability to claim womanhood without even trying to pass as female, because people are quicker to accept the woman-gender-identity than the woman-bio-sex. But likewise, ironically, I sense that they're jealous of that I can claim the "woman lane" despite looking convincingly male, because I'll always be biologically female, no matter how insible my sex is.

They cannot see me as a woman, because of my transition, without looking at themselves as men, no matter how far they transition. And I cannot see them as women, no matter how far they transition, without labeling myself as a man, because of my own transition. I think that about nails it.

Part 5 Conclusions:

I don't think it's true hatred, but rather insecurities both from myself and from them. Because we cannot both exist as women under the same ideology. One of us has to be considered a man, and neither of us is willing to fold on that. Ultimately... I am a threat to their womanhood, as much as they are a threat to my womanhood. And that tension is so thick... not even a knife could cut it. I guess the sad thing is though, that I think that tension is unnecessary. I am so unlike trans women that we could potentially bond based on how different we are. Because there is a lot of similarity in those differences, if you really think about it.

But no, I do not wish them harm in any way. Despite the vast array of insults I sometimes hurl their way. That is really just in response to them insulting me. I do not think they're doing anything wrong by transitioning, or even necessarily by identifying as women. I think, if they had just been more like "I can see you as a woman despite having transitioned, because deep down you like being female and having a pussy... kinda like I'm a woman because I wanna have a pussy, despite having been born male" I would have been much quicker to embrace them. Because that, I could get behind; but they can't.

So, there is no solidarity. It remains an endless fight. But I feel like it's not just on my part. I have tried. I do try. But they're not willing to meet me halfway, and that makes me go to attack in self-defense, which makes then go to attack in self-defense.

[shinra-makonoid]

Since I wanted to get to the bottom of this, I continued the book, and I'm tired of that straw man.

That's not true on the majority of TRA. I fail to understand how she can claim that the trans men she meets are entirely feminine (so not GNC to their birth sex) AND that they're pushed to be trans when they're GNC. Not saying no one is, because I've heard of butch lesbians and stuff who are expected to transition simply for being GNC (one talk about it in gender troubles: the butches). But the majority of effectively transitioning young adults trans men are bisexual or androphilic, and not very GNC. Again we need numbers on that but we don't have them regarding the GNC behavior of young transitioning trans men. And there is also a difference between someone saying "oh maybe you should look up transsexualism" and downright saying "you must be trans" as the later case doesn't happen a lot IRL, and it never happens to someone who is typical to their gender. Anyway no one claimed that one of those women are trans, they lived as women.

I’ve seen this happen on Twitter too for example with a male who started taking HRT but disagreed with being trans. People starting telling they were trans and continued to do so, and they were vehemently against that, they didn’t want to have the “trans label” on them. It was months ago. Well... A few days ago she gave the news that she had a paper in which she was diagnosed with gender dysphoria. So like... I mean, at some point you gotta realize that there’s also some denial from some people because of how bad being trans looks.

And it also depends on how you define transsexualism. If you think about it as transitioning or simply as "identifying". Someone like James Barry effectively "lived the trans experience" independently of how he identified. Lived as a (gay) man and asked not to have his body being kept covered after his death. The only reason we know he's a female is because people went against his death wishes. Was he trans? Was he not trans? Maybe he passed as a male only because he wanted to work which was a male field then, again we will never know, it doesn't change the fact that he lived as male despite being female until he died, which is effectively being trans. There are plenty of women who managed to do this and still lived as females, they usually didn't become males in society and hid their sex until their death for it.

And I'm sorry but LGBT education in school should be mandatory, and no, I don’t think parents should have the choice to make their kids “opt-out” from it, or any other health-education or scientific stuff.

Like even if you have only problems with the T part of education, and even if you find out that people have been calling your kid other pronouns. Then what? Do you think forbidding people to use pronouns will make them stop identifying as trans? The way to handle it is complicated but to forbid people to use pronouns for kids and stuff is dumb. It creates drama that won’t help the kid and might make them go deeper into their issues/group think. The only thing that this is, is a petty fight with whiny parents. And I get it, but I know that people part of a cult (if you consider the trans thing to be a cult entirely), don’t suddenly quit their cult if you go against their beliefs to the point of making their life worse. To the contrary.

There’s something that I agreed on a page before is that, though I think it’s good the school gives students clothes, medical needs etc, I really don’t think kids need to go skip school to get hormonal treatment. But nowhere today is there anything saying that this is actually the case. I looked up the source she gives (which was hard to find tbh) here and it was effectively proposed in June 2019 but nothing indicates that it was adopted anywhere as of today October 2020. A thing being proposed doesn’t mean it’s going to be adopted.

Besides, trans teenagers don’t need to go to official doctors to get HRT if they wish to do so. Grey/Black market is a thing, trans teenagers have been doing this for years and years, without parental consent and without school knowing. So like, again, kind of a false problem if you think about it, though I am obviously not pro this.

https://chuffed.org/project/keep-the-trans-community-off-black-market-hrt

https://www.quora.com/How-many-transgender-people-take-black-market-hormones

https://abcnews.go.com/US/underground-transgender-woman-black-market-drugs-transition/story?id=38543011

I’ve personally known of trans men taking black market blockers, as T is more difficult to get.

The problematic truth is that nothing will prevent teenagers who want hormones to get them. It is naive to think otherwise. It’s been a thing forever. What should be done is to ensure that they’re getting hormones from a safe source without a risk of abuse..... And unfortunately, legalizing it might be a way. It’s not ideal, but it’s definitely better than having your kid ruining their health through bad dosage too, or was ingredients no one really know what they are. What I mean is, it is a complex issue and this isn’t talked about in a good way. Saying “oh it’s bad!” doesn’t give any solution to it.

[femvulvaphile]

let’s break that weird shit down, then

“We’ve been here since the beginning. I know your hate group, your little Nazi sub-sect, has this lie you like to spread that we suddenly spring into being from whole cloth in the 1970s, but that fighting all through history? WE’VE. BEEN THERE. FOR ALL OF IT.” cool but that’s literally not what I said. transwomen’s and women’s fights are inherently different. Sex-based oppression doesn’t DIRECTLY affect transwomen: you will never be shunned for menstruating, you will never be afraid of having your prepubescent vulva mutilated for the sick pleasure of a men five times your age, you will never be afraid of being impregnated against your will, or of miscarriage of a wanted child, or of all the pregnancy and birth complications who are still killing women all over the world. you will never know what it’s like to have men catcall and grope you when you’re nine years old just because your boobs already began to grow.   

"The demonization of trans women is a relatively recent invention in the grand scheme of human history and it is one that you have helped re-surge into the modern world.” that’s bullshit. the “demonization” you’re talking about can refer to one of two things: either the conservative view that transwomen are “deviant men” (which I definitely agree is shitty), or the radical feminist view that transwomen retain their male socialization and so, as a group, can represent danger to women (which is backed up by research, btw, and the amount of “receipts” in the form of news reports of transwomen hurting and murdering cis women AND in the unending threats and harassment that radfems receive online and irl).

"The idea of ASAB and tying it to gender in some inviolate and unchangeable way is something colonizing white people brought to this country, and others they invaded.” cool but that’s bullshit? pretty much every culture on earth has a history of identifying biological sex and applying sociological roles to them. that’s not a white invention, that’s not the fruit of colonialism. the concept of “gender” as behaviors and roles based on reproductive function has existed for as long as people have existed. some cultures have stricter rules about them, others are more loose. some cultures refuse to acknowledge non-conforming people as their “original gender”, and then you have things like two-spirit or hijras.

"Whether you realize it or not, and…let’s be honest, you probably do, your actions, your hate group, is just a laser-guided subsection of what fascism and white supremacy stands for.” wtf tho. fascists and white supremacists and nazi want a “pure” world without “lesser” groups, like black people, jewish people, homosexuals, gnc people. how is female-only radical feminism the same? are you aware that plenty of radical feminists are woc themselves, and even jewish? are you aware that the vast majority of people you’d call “terfs” aren’t even american, or english speakers? we literally just want men to stop fucking murdering us.

“Without colonization, without white supremacy, your argument, your constant, hammering on “male” as if to conjure some demon from the word, would mean nothing.” male violence has been a reality in human history. it’s not a theory, it’s not up to debate. it’s a fact. you know it is, according to your original post talking about men posing the most danger to transwomen. women all over the world are victims of men. it doesn’t change whether we talk about it, or use the words male, men, amab.

"I don’t mean that in the rhetorical sense, I mean literally, your words would not have a cogent basis without that.” again, bullshit. male violence is everywhere, in every culture, in every part of the world, regardless of how much contact with europen colonization the culture has had. japanese men are violent, russian men are violent, french men are violent, english men are violent, american men are violent, cuban men are violent, argentinian men are violent, brazilian men are violent. nazis didn’t invent misogyny.

“How fucking dare you invoke my dead sisters, how fucking dare you bring up that most of us getting murdered are PoC, while peddling Nazi approved propaganda.” uh. it’s “nazi approved propaganda” to say that women face violence from men and therefore need safe spaces from them? and I brought up the groups that murdered transwomen belong to because YOUR GROUP likes using them, using your so-called dead sisters, as argument points, as proof that a white middle class educated men with a dress and lipstick is somehow more oppressed than any woman on earth.

“Meanwhile, asshole,” oh cool name calling when I wrote a relatively calm and non-offensive post. “I was talking about SHARED SPACES. LGBT focused communities, the ones you are perpetually try to focus trans lesbians out of because you view us as the worst of what you already consider the worst.” yeah, maybe we wouldn’t need to do that if “lesbian” transwomen could stop demanding so much from women, or if they’d stop claiming protagonism when they don’t even experience SAME-SEX ATTRACTION, which historically has been, you know, the entire defining poing for “lgbt” people.

“You didn’t even notice it, did you? You were just launching into Pre-Written Terf Rhetoric #5 without so much as reading what I actually. Fucking. Said.” dude, you’re calling me a nazi literally just because I said women deserve female-only spaces and transwomen should create their own safe spaces away from men instead of demanding entry and protection from women.

"Your insistence that we’re “straight men” only serves to try and push us out of those communities as well." you have more in common with straight men than with lesbians, tho. you don’t experience same-sex attraction, you’re not female, you can impregnate a female lesbian (depending on transition specifics, but let’s be honest: the big problem is the transwomen who claim “there’s no need to need to transition bc my dick is a woman’s dick”), if you’re not “passing” you don’t need to fear homophobic violence from strangers.

“Jesus fuck, like did you even notice that was the fucking point? Like your shoving us aside as non-women is already fucked up but that wasn’t even the point of this particular post.” the point of your post was vilifying women who question the notion that “transwomen are exactly the same as women”. the point of your post was putting the blame on women, “terfs”, for what men do.

"The idea that men view us as also men is so beyond laughable I can’t even properly convey it.” they view you as “DEFECTIVE” men. they definitely don’t view you as women. men are violent towards you as a result of toxic masculinity - a non-conforming male is a threat to their notion of rigid male-female roles. the violence towards you is closer in motivation to the violence towards gay men, rather than the one towards women.

"But I’m just going to say: You don’t live our lives. You don’t live our experiences.” yes. just like you don’t live the lives of women. which is exactly why I said transwomen do deserve safe spaces, but not by invading female-only safe spaces.

"If you don’t know how wrong you are it’s because you’re incapable of treating our words as anything but the words of the target of your hate and thus discarded.” you’re lumping me in with nazis (I’m a latina gender-non-conforming lesbian, I’d be raped and killed by actual nazis faster than you could type “op is a terf”), refusing to actually ACKNOWLEDGE the things I said, bringing up way more arguments than the ones on your original post, and then blaming me for not being able to read your mind.

“The power you hold is that you have been aligning yourself with right-wing christian groups,” bullshit. again: women can’t even get men to stop raping us. how exactly do you think we have any power, any voice, over THE most misogynistic men on the planet?

"the power you hold is that your ilk has been speaking to audiences wherever they can find them in academia for decades,” again, bullshit. women have been in academia for, like, two years, in comparison to how long men have been dominating every public and private space.

"the power you hold is that you went into the communities that might have helped us stay alive and sowed false accusations to turn others against us,” b u l l s h i t. YOU came into OUT communities demanding we treat you as equals, when we are observably NOT equals. sex-based oppression doesn’t affect transwomen the same way it does women. men’s violence is distinctly different based on your sex.

"the power you hold is in helping, insidiously, to uphold the institutional biases that keep us marginalized, alone, and dying.” the same can be said of modern trans rights activists, tho. you’re all contributing to the strengthening of gender as a hierarchy - and not because you need to conform to survive. no, your original message (the one we can still hear from drag queens and transvestites from stonewall, for instance, that your kind likes to claim as “transwomen”) has been corrupted to the point where people look at a feminine gay boy and tell him he must be trans, he must transition, he must be a woman because he likes makeup and is attracted to men. your kind tells parents of vulnerable children that their little boys and girls will KILL THEMSELVES if they don’t take hormones as soon as possible. your group tells lesbians they need to suck dick to be proper lesbians. your group supports (and breeds) more murderers, rapists, and pedophiles than radical feminism could. your group tells women of color, lesbians, survivors of all sorts of male violence, that they’re the problem. you tell us we’re even worse than men. you tell us to die, you threaten us with rape, with baseball bats. you punch sixty year old women who dare take a picture of people trying to silence women. you rape and murder a twelve year old girl. you rape and forcibly impregnate a female trans person, and then brag about it. you support rapists and pedophiles being housed in women’s prison because of their “gender feels”. 

you tell women to shut up about their own experiences. you tell women they’re not the “right kind” of women. you tell women they’re not woman “enough”. you tell them to sacirfice themselves for yet another male.

“And yes, before you even start, I’m blocking you. I don’t debate Nazis or Nazi bootlicks.” still nowhere near being a nazi, but alright.

bonus:

“also do they just have a terf blog name generator somewhere, i swear all terf blogs read like a bunch of synonyms for vagina and spellings of rad and possibly a wolf reference or phile or fetishist, all put in a random name generator” that’s hilarious to men because I literally saved this url after I seeing an asshole claim that lesbians aren’t allowed to call themselves lesbians if they don’t suck dick, and that they’re actually vagina fetishists. the person used -phile on something, I can’t recall what, and I immediately thought “hmm, yes. I love vulvas. I’m a vulvaphile. A female vulvaphile.” 

[tranz-ferdinand-blog]

Trans Intracommunity Issues 

The trans community isn’t some monolith and we aren’t bonded by any polticial ideas, but our general existence so please take this with a grain of salt. These are my experiences as a trans person and what I’ve noticed from extremes in the community over several years.

Animosity Between Trans Men and Trans Women Because our experiences are a bit different and our histories are not as intertwined in some cases, there is definitely at times a dissonance between us. I’ve seen many transmisogynistic trans men and many and transphobic trans women for various reasons. But there is no reason why this can’t be mended. Solidarity is much more important than our slight differences.

‘Anyone Can Be Trans’ Rhetoric I think it’s very disastrous to everyone in the long term to insinuate that anyone is trans if they are uncomfortable with gender roles or their body or if they ‘choose’ to. We’ll soon have a wave of people who detransition or realize they were using a transgender identity to hide behind. This happens with lots of identities too (i.e trans people first thinking they are gay, a lesbian IDing as ace before realizing internalized lesbophobia). It’s important to think critically about why you feel the way you do and not stick to a label at the slightest discomfort with gender roles/presentation.

’Transmedical’ Rhetoric On the other extreme, I feel like transmed/truscum/whatever title ideology goes too far. Trans people can be just as gnc as a cis person. We do not exist to uphold gender roles and presentation and we do not have to follow cis standards of presentation and can create our own while still being critical of our identity. Medical transition is also not something that is necessary to be trans and can even be a negative thing for some people, especially those who later detransition. It is very expensive and for some things, not effective. Trans people should be allowed to medically transition as much or as little as we please.

Not Acknowledging Same Sex Attraction This is a recently touchy subject and I feel that our opinions on this are all across the board (like most things, but you get my point). There are many cis gay or straight people that are attracted to us based on gender alone, but there are also cis gay and straight people attracted to us based on sex. If a lesbian is dating a trans man and he is comfortable with that, they can do as they please just as a cis straight man dating a trans woman should be able to. There are some of us that do not feel comfortable dating people attracted to us on a genitalia basis, but some of us are okay with it. (I personally am not.) People, both cis and trans, can acknowledge all of this  without disrespect or shaming people into changing their gender or sexual identity. 

Or Same Sex Oppression I feel like many times we gloss over same sex oppression because we are trying to be as respectful as possible and not misgender anyone. But gendered and sex oppression are complicated things to apply to trans people. DFAB people are oppressed specifically for being born female unlike DMAB people, but trans women still face gendered oppression for being women and transgender. Gendered and sex based oppression or privilege is hard to realize how vastly differently it can effect us based on how well we pass, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Or that you can’t realize this without respecting trans people and our identity.

Desperate to Scientifically Prove Ourselves We’ve all seen the disproven brain sex articles, and I understand why we were so ecstatic about them in the beginning. But fact is, we don’t need some gene or brain anomaly to prove that we are real. Even if this is caused mainly by social factors, it is not an inherently bad or misogynistic identity. I know it can be so relieving to have a scientific reason for why we are the way we are, but it is so much more important to love yourself and deconstruct your identity to understand it yourself. You deserve to exist.

Not Respecting GNC Trans People This is common within transmedical ideas and heavily ties into that, but the simple fact is that a trans man dress ‘feminine’ and a trans woman can dress ‘masculine’ and that makes them no less trans or their gender for it.

Or GNC Cis People or Detransitioned People There is a pretty large divide between trans people and cis people of all kinds, but I think that it’s depressing for gnc cis people, detransitioned people, and trans people to get along so poorly or be hostile towards each other. Our identities and narratives do not cancel each other out. Some of us have very similar experiences but take different avenues to realize our true selves. Some of us are pressured into the wrong option first like detransitioned people or trans people who are forced out of transitioning. We have more in common than our extremes let us know, and we need to stick up for each other.

Or Non-binary Genders  I am still on the fence and not the best person to talk on this because I do not quite grasp some NB identities myself. But I do think that nb genders can be good ways of understanding yourself and your gender and can have cultural or religious importance. Just because a masculine presenting DMAB NB may not experience as much transphobia, does not take away that identity. Just because you do not understand something doesn’t mean you can’t respect it.

New Gender Terms I do however, have an issue with the exponential growth of NB terms as of late. As I said above, there is nothing inherently bad about being NB, but I do think there are some ways that it is being used as a way to hide internalized transphobia/homophobia/misogyny/etc. which is a possibility in trying to understand yourself. It’s best to be critical of these terms and really think about what is causing your discomfort/dysphoria and if you are using an identity to hide your true one. I know many of these new terms are from young teens online and I mean no disrespect to you guys, but it is something to look into from time to time.

[werevulvi]

I feel like I should get deeper into my choice to take on the nonbinary label. Is it based on misogyny? Yes. Absolutely, yes. But a woman simply protecting herself from misogyny is not complicit in the misogyny that she is forced to face. Radical feminists should know that, I think. However, I realise that I may have missed to communicate that clearly. Allow me to try better, and dig deeper into my wounds.

Identifying as nonbinary does give me a sense of relief, a sense of wholeness - a relief to be whoever I want and feel allowed to just exist as my authentic self, free from either fucked up gender stereotype, thgose of both men and women - which might sound good on the surface level... but looking deeper, through my radfem eyes, what it means, is this: Why do I feel like I cannot be my authentic self as a woman, all of a sudden? There we have it, the big bleeding wound in my heart, and that's what I feel a need to elaborate on. I'll stay out of the nonbinary tag this time. This isn't for them. (Although anyone can reblog, comment or give a like.) What do I actually want, for myself, if it wasn't for society? I wish to continue transitioning. I wanna go back on testosterone as I deeply miss it and I'm panicking about my body hair thinning out and decreasing. I do not want to lose it for the world! I'm holding onto every single one of my vanishing hairs, for dear life! At the same time, I still wish to get new boobs. I still miss them sorely and I just need to have those kinda body parts again. I feel broken without boobs, I panic without T. I cannot explain it. It's weird alright, but I don't give a fuck! Without societal imput that's just how I want to look and love looking like. It's just body mods. At core, that's what it is: just body modifications. You know that as radfems - I know it just as well.

I love my body when it's masculinised yet retaining all of my originally female parts, such as curves, breasts and my pussy. That makes me feel very positively connected to my body; so to the point that it makes me feel entirely at peace with that I'm female, and very comfortable with that it makes me a woman. But I cannot be okay with being female if I had to be a traditional looking woman, or even a butch-looking woman. That is not ME, neither of those would be my authentic self. So, my medical transition deeply matters to me, as body mods, and I will not walk away from that. I believe that continuing my medical transition while still honouring my female body and womanhood is what is right for me personally. I understand that there is an issue with the beauty industry affecting me too, but I'm clearly not making myself beautiful for men - nor am I making myself ugly for them. What I'm doing is making myself beautiful for me, in an unconventional way, even though it makes me also ugly for most other lesbians. Can you understand then, from that perspective, how deeply important it is for me, that I willingly make such a sacrifice? (I'm already in a happy lesbian relationship, so maybe you can't, but alright.) I do not believe that I mod myself out of self hate. Not anymore, because I did in the past, and I believe that I can tell the difference between living as a man while actively attempting to escape one's female biology - and living as a male-passing woman while actively honouring my beautifully modified female body. You may think I'm mutilated, but I'd disagree. I am beautiful and my high self-esteem greatly surpasses such rudeness.

Is a heavily tattooed woman self-hating for her mods? I don't know what you may think, but if not, then neither am I with my beard and deep voice and future fake tits. An intentionally virilised (fancy word for masculinised, I like it quite a lot), modified woman is what I am, want to be and remain as. I do not have any "social dysphoria" accompanying my body/sex dysphoria since I recovered from my traumas, and thus I feel no need or wish what so ever to call myself a man, and I feel good calling myself what is true in science: female, girl, woman, she/her, lady, ma'am, miss, etc.

I believe that I have somehow managed, against all odds, with the help of radfems on tumblr... to balance transitioning my dysphoria with being a self-loving biological woman. Thank you for that. So what's the catch? I mentioned misogyny. Well, socially, as a male-passing, yet suspiciously curvy and overtly effeminately styled person - I have effectively lost my right to be a woman outside of radblr. I want you to understand this, especially other radfem's, so please listen carefully if you've got a few minutes, because this is important, as it absolutely has to do with both female oppression as well as trans ideology bullshit (and I'll try not to scream this time, but I can't make any promises, because this is deeply painful and upsetting to me.) Can't women take testosterone and like it and still be women? That's what's so complicated, and I need to be upfront and clear about why. Technically, yes of course that is possible. No one can or should stop women from taking T if they truly want a beard and permanently deep voice, right - but is it possible socially? No, in my experience it is not, and I will now try my best to explain to you what I mean by that, as it's kinda abstract. There are two aspects to this. Firstly, any female person claiming to want those physical features is going to be told that they then cannot be a woman. They are told that is incorrect thinking, that they are a trans man or nonbinary, that they have internalised transphobia or that they are indeed a "cis" woman but confused and should NOT take testosterone, implying that will make her dysphoric if she really is a woman. Because trans ideology says so.

Secondly, living as a male-passing woman who does not want to pass as female, was something that I found to be so difficult in practice that eventually it became too much for me. It isn't dysphoria-inducing, not at all. But it's very, very frustrating and constantly challenging. I can no longer access women's spaces so I have to put up with using the men's including locker rooms, convincing people of my still female sex is next to impossible (even doctors!), other women view me as a threat and an imposter, I'm frequently barred from lesbian spaces unless my girlfriend invites me to them first, I am frequently mistaken for being a poorly passing trans woman, and so on.

I'm effectively forced to either live as a trans woman (which I'd feel is degrading, untrue, and deceptive) or to claim a transmasculine label to at least be able to infer that I'm "afab" - but a WOMAN? No. Woman, in the eyes of society as it is today - cannot be a happily male-passing, dysphoric female. That is deemed an oxymoron. Gender has taken presendency over sex. People assume, wrongfully, that my "gender identity" is woman - and they assume, just as wrongfully, that my sex is male - and they make both those assumptions at once. They then refuse to accept that they are wrong, no matter how hard I have tried to explain it, over and over ad nauseum. I don't even understand why that keeps happening!

Therefore, I've come to the sad conclusion that I'm simply no longer welcome into society as a woman, based on my choice of looks, as I am indeed happily transitioned and do not wish to change what testosterone improved on my body. I completely refuse to. Not to be dramatic, but... I'd rather fucking die. My body is not a property of society. It is MY property. My ONLY true property. And I'll decorate it however I so damn well please. But what can I do about it, being treated like that? Realistically, in actuality, what CAN I possibly do about it? Honestly, not much. I can either suck it up and "admit" to being a man, or I can fight endlessly and keep explaining how I'm really a woman, or choose some kinda middle-road like nonbinary, but I cannot win that fight. Perhaps (hopefully) radical feminism can, but me, as a single, individual person? No, I cannot win that battle. I stand defenseless against a massive army, and that enemy has worn me out. I have essentially lost my right to be a woman, by being my authentic self. That is very, very sad. It scares me, it honestly mortifies me, but I have to deal with it somehow. I can't just slump down and cry about it, no matter how tempting that is.

I do not think that my experience with this is entirely unique. I believe I probably share it with tons of other gnc and/or male-passing women, but I am new to this.

I'm 30 years old, and have only lived as a male-passing woman for one and a half year. I grew up as a typically feminine girl, dysphoric about my sex traits, but never dysphoric about my feminine expression. My gnc mom taught me well, to separate sex from gender expression, and I thus never confused the two as I see sooo many other gnc and trans people do. I do not blame them, because so many people infer that my femininity=woman and my masculinity=man and that the sum of my whimsical androgyny equals nonbinary. But I cannot, do not, WILL NOT and have never in my life... seen it that way. However, big however, I STILL turned out dysphoric about my sex, despite being a happily feminine female, and lesbian at that, and that is something few seem to understand. I get that, I totally do. It's probably rare. Just see for yourself how empty the "dysphoric femme" tag is. Yes, it exists, with a whole whopping three posts. And I struggle to explain it.

It's very hard for me to live as a male-passing woman because it is entirely new for me and I'm struggling to adapt to facing this extreme level of misogyny. I break down from it, I do not know how to handle it. Perhaps most gnc/dysphoric women have lived with that crap since they were young tomboys, but I haven't, because I was never a tomboy. I suppose it will get easier, as much else does, and that is why I'm pretty sure that me using the nonbinary label now is only going to be temporary. Because I do not know how to deal with this. I'm sorry... I'm sorry for breaking down and admitting defeat, I'm so fucking sorry. I just want to be treated with the dignity and respect that I give to others, or at least just an ounce of politeness. So am I actually nonbinary, then, genderwise? No, I am not. Neither my choice of gender roles, nor my androgynous blob of a personality, not even my strange dysphoria is evidence of a nonbinary gender. If that’s how others see it: fine, but I cannot force myself to actually believe that THAT's what makes me nonbinary... No matter how much I keep getting that forced down my throat. All I do is choke on it. What I am is a woman, sex-wise, as I've always stated. Me taking on the nonbinary label is indeed a choice. A reluctant, but very deliberate, active choice.

Problem is that I cannot live authentically while at the same time calling myself what I literally am, without getting brutally punished for it. Yes, I believe the ones to blame for that... are the TRA's. Trans activism slowly changed society to overlook sex in favour of gender. I believe that is why I am being denied my womanhood, because it is based on my invisible sex. If you look clearly female in your day-to-day life, I do not think that you could possibly experience this. To clarify: I do not mind passing as male. In fact I like it quite a lot. What I do mind, is being treated like crap for who I am, and not being believed to be what I am. I had no idea that this would happen upon my detransition. I am shocked, and I am hurt. End notes: I wish that someday I can truly reclaim my womanhood, without having to change my body to fit societal standards, or claim a trans label to dodge the societal standards. I miss my womanhood, and I need it... but it has been snatched from my hands. The enemy won't let me have it back, unless I comply to the rules and (sell my soul to the patriarchy) turn myself into a conventionally attractive barbie doll - and my attempts to reclaim it without complying to those rules, are utterly futile. I am an incorrect female... deprived of my right to be a woman, and it hurts. Man, it hurts sooo bad!

Honestly I don't know what to do about it, but for now I need a breathing break from this constant battle, because my enemy has exhausted me. "Nonbinary" is such a breathing break. It is my retreat, but I will NOT surrender. Someday I will charge back into battle again, and shove down people's throats that I'm damn well a woman regardless of what they think of it. Because this bearded bitch ain't fucking dead yet!!!

[werevulvi]

These pics are just to show my dented ribs, cause like... suffer with me? Also cause I feel strangely alright with what my chest looks like in these pics. But anyhow. On left pic I'm pointing at the centre where it goes in and then pops out again on both sides of the sternum/breastbone. And yes, that's my bone bending like that, not just fat or muscles. Likely from having pushed my breasts towards the centre in binders and sports bras. On the right pic I'm pointing at the big dent on the lower left side of my ribcage, which is right where the sports bra elastic goes. My lowest ribs then curve out much farther than they do on the other side. Putting pressure on either of those dented areas hurts a bit.

(The bump above my nipple on the right pic is literally just my pec muscle, so no need to worry about that one.) And yes I'm sucking in my stomach here only so that you can see my ribs better, I don’t normally do for photos. I've sure gotten hairy again since I stopped shaving my body, and I like the soft fluff! It’s dark brown, almost black, irl. Which is quite a contrast to my ivory skin. And yes my happy trail does connect with my chest hair, which almost connects with my beard but not quite. Those little tufts just above the scars on my chest are my actual nipple hairs, or used to be before the nips were relocated during top surgery. They're weirdly misplaced little hairs now, but that's why they're there. And yeah, 5 years post-op but the scars never became white. But let's get onto the topic. I've come across a new doubt about my wish to have breast reconstruction, which I'm already looking into and not brushing under any carpets. I do want to make as sure as I possibly can that I make the right decision about my chest this time, so I'm tackling every doubt I get about it. And that new doubts keep popping up from time to time, worries me too. Even though I sorted through all the previous ones. So what's it this time? Since I've started going flat in public a couple weeks ago or something (I think the last time I went out with boobs on was June 6th or around that date) I've noticed I seem to be less likely to be assumed to be a trans woman, and instead seen as just a gnc man. And strangely that actually feels better, mentally. It's still very far from ideal, but I feel it's the slightly better of the two evils.

What would be ideal? In a perfect (and highly unrealistic) world: I'd love it if people would just know I'm a female who's taken testosterone and/or see I'm a masculinised woman even if they can't figure out, or know, how. And without me having to change my body at all. But that is not how reality works and I know that people won't perceive me that way just because I want for them to.

So, without changing my body again I'm basically stuck having to choose between being perceived as either a "cis" man or a trans woman, depending on my presentation and style. (Cause apparently we are assuming "gender identity" and not just bio sex, these days.) Of course I don't have 100% control over which one of those I'll be read as, but I've come to notice that people do seem to be much more likely to "trans me" when I'm wearing my breast forms cause that is adding a female (not just feminine) trait to my otherwise male appearance... and they seem to be much more likely to think I'm simply a man (albeit gnc) when I go flat but still keep a feminine style. However, some still read me as a gnc man with boobs and some still read me as a trans woman without them.

Exactly why I seem to prefer being read as a whole ass man rather than as a trans woman, is complicated and not entirely nice, but basically this: Both trans women and "cis" men are bio male, and it's the assumption that I'm bio male that rubs me backwards, at the core of it.

However, being assumed to be a trans woman adds another layer to it. It makes me feel like people shove the gender ideology down my throat that is hard to wiggle myself out of, and it makes me feel like I'm perceived as a "fake" woman and a "fake" lesbian. A fraud, to be brutally honest. Whereas when I'm assumed to be simply a gnc man, the gender ideology is not being shoved down my throat, people don't comment on my assumed genitals, etc. But above all I'm more likely to be treated with respect, which feels hugely relieving.

But mostly what truly whacks my mind about being assumed to be MtF is that it makes me feel like I'm an imposter of an imposter. Double wrong. While when seen as a man, I merely feel like I'm simply an imposter. Plain wrong. And that, is exactly why I feel like "gnc man" is a better wrongful assumption than "trans woman" is. Cause two wrongs really don't make a right.

But regardlessly, I am not and will never be an actual man. I am an imposter, a male impersonator of modern times. But at the same time I believe I'm more authentic like this than I would be if I tried to force myself into acquiring a stereotypical "womanly" appearance. That would be a charade just as much, if not more. That was a long ramble about how I'm perceived again, but it's highly relevant to my doubt about getting breast reconstruction, just hear me out. Cause that, what I'm read as based on what's going on on my chest, was was made the doubt creep out from its shadows, just a few days ago. It has gotten me suddenly worrying I might not like it how I'd be perceived if I have permanent boobs on my chest that I wouldn't be able to hide. Cause no more binding, ever. I've fucked my ribs over enough for a lifetime. And of course, how fucking moot and dumb it would be to bind after breast reconstruction! The thing, however, is that if I actually prefer to be seen as a gnc man over being seen as a trans woman, and boobs being the tipping point between those two perceptions... that creates a thorn in my side, a doubt, a conflict even, about if breast reconstruction really is the right choice for me then.

Ever since I left my boobs at home those weeks ago, people have left me alone about my gender/sex. Out of all the 5 or 6 strangers that have come up and talked to me since then, zero have confronted me about my gender, sex or even my style. It is a relief to just be left alone about my body like that.

I'm also feeling slightly (possibly even increasingly) okay with my chest as it is. I do still regret my top surgery and I still miss having boobs, and it's definitely possible that I'm just disassociating from my chest being flat now, but... Yesterday I was even walking around in my neighbourhood wearing literally just a skirt, fem slippers, my lesbian necklace, red lipstick, and an open, flimsy tunic/cardigan. The wind grabbing it quite a lot means most of my chest showed, including nipples, and my neighbours could see it as I walked back and forth to the laundry house to clean my dirty clothes.

Is it weird? Well, I highly doubt I'd be reported for indecent exposure cause I'm at least 99% sure everyone in my neighbourhood thinks I'm male. Cause they certainly looked shocked at me when I first started going fem in my early detransition a year ago. I've only lived in this area since mid-transition, so no one here knows my history with that. Basically I can't imagine my neighbours think I'm somehow bio female, without slipping into the territory of wishful thinking. But it has gotten me thinking: when I don't shave anywhere, and don't wear boobs, knowing I can only pass as male that way... am I not technically "presenting male" then, despite being female and also so feminine in my style? I mean, up until the point I introduce myself as "Laura" that is. Also, last night I took a shower, and for the first time in... I dunno how many years, if ever... I actually enjoyed soaping and touching my chest in gentle, massaging and caressing ways. For but a glimpse of a moment, I could connect to it for probably the first time since top surgery, or ever, in a non-sexual way. It is indeed a breakthrough. It is also a hint of its possible true potential. That I could maybe at some point come to peace with it. Why do I feel so bad for regretting my transition? Cause even though I achieved a 100% passability, here I am, still dysphoric and miserable, missing the womanhood I traded away. Oh, what a fool I was. This irrevokable fate that seems like an impossible dream for the dysphoric, and I'm just pissing on it. I'm sorry, but I cannot appreciate having been transformed into a highly believable illusion of something I can never actually become and no longer want to be. I never thought it could hurt. I never knew it could hurt like this. Was I sold a lie? But back to my chest. I know getting new tits won't make me any more or less female, and it wouldn't make me pass as female either. What I'd want them for is personal comfort in the private, in both non-sexual and in sexual contexts, and vaguely also cause it would help me relate better and more positively to other women. I'm jealous of every pair of boobs I ever see, clothed or uncovered, and that hurts. But what makes me now hesitate, perhaps for real, is this new, gnawing inkling of a feeling that what if I'd miss having a flat chest? Sometimes I like the look of it, in the sense that it kinda goes with my otherwise male appearance and who doesn't/wouldn't like the feeling of a soothing breeze on their bare chest during a hot summer day? Cause it sure does feel good. Oh god, I wish I could just have the cake and eat it at the same time!

It's been 5 years since I had my top surgery, but did I ever truly try to make amends with it, before my detransition? No, I didn't. What I did was trying to force myself to like the result of it, and that's not a successful approach. Just like I didn't exactly manage to like being a woman when I during my teens tried to force myself to become fine with my female body after I had figured out I was likely a trans guy at age 15, and up until the point I said "fuck it" and began my social (and eventually medical) transition at age 19. During those 4 years my dysphoria only worsened, and I think my rabid attempt to force myself to like being female was part of why it only got worse. Forcing self-love is not the way to achieve it. It won't work. Just like you can't beat depression out of yourself, or any other issue, you can't beat dysphoria out of yourself either. That kind of force is actually more likely to make it worse instead, I believe. Cause it'll just strengthen your belief that it won't work. However, to gently and with compassion for yourself and your struggle try out different things, over a longer time and with lots of patience, to slowly accept and come to terms with it can lead to the dysphoria disappearing. To not punish yourself for still being dysphoric or for not "succeeding", but rather reward yourself for even just trying and for every little thing that may improve on the way. At least that's how I managed to accept and embrace being female in my late 20's despite having failed so miserably at it during my teens, because this time I didn't force it. I killed that dysphoria with kindness, quite literally.

Likewise, I think there is a chance I could come to accept and embrace my flat chest if I just stopped forcing myself to, and tried it with gentle self-care and curiosity, without pressure to achieve anything. If only I just want to and can be prepared to give myself that kind of care and patience, one more fucking time. Cause I've only got one body and I'm so fucking painfully aware of it now. I can't fuck it up again. Detransitioning requires so much more soul-searching and scrambling around in my brain for answers, self-care and patience, etc, than transitioning ever did. Well... that's why I ended up detransitioning, I think. Cause I didn't do a good job at truly looking into myself the first time around. Would I still have wanted to go on T if I had known everything I know now, though? Oh absolutely, but that's not the topic of today.

But whether I'll in the long run wanna live as a male-presenting woman incognito or later on down the road change my body in some way, I can't know for sure at this point. Perhaps I'm just not mentally ready yet to take that kind of leap. Or perhaps I don't ever want to present fully female again and may end up loving this look and contradiction as I grow more secure within myself and more confident. But either which way, I will have to follow this new doubt carefully and see where it takes me. Keep going flat for a while and see how it goes, and see if how I'm perceived really changes based on that and if that really feels better in the long run to be perceived as a man. To take advantage of this very hot summer to be shirtless also in public to test my comfort level with that, and if I'd miss that. To explore my flatness gently and with careful patience to see if it really is so bad. To ask my brain: what is this lingering doubt trying to tell me? I'll start with giving it this summer, then more time if needed. I'll still go to the surgery consultation that could happen anytime now. It's not like I'd have to get the surgery by just going to that consultation, cause I'll need to go through my trauma therapy first, and even if it's expected I'd go through with surgery after consultation, I can always cancel at any point. Also, being informed of what a surgeon can do for me and my specific chest, as well as getting my questions about the surgery answered, would surely be helpful in my decision-making as well. I mean, that's what surgery consultations are for. Because I still lean towards wanting it more than I lean towards maybe not wanting it, I think cautiously proceeding with my thumb close to the cancel button is not a bad idea.