#fluidphobia

[tentacled-being]

Wish people wouldn't see genderfluid people as less of a man or less of a woman than binary men and woman. The whole "you aren't a man/woman, you're genderfluid" thing is so obnoxious. Like tell me you don't know what genderfluid is without telling ne you don't know what genderfluid is.

The same applies to others who experience being multiple genders. It's just misgendering.

Edit: To clarify, I know there are plenty genderfluid and multigender peeps who aren't men or women, my issue is with people supposedly earnestly saying you aren't something that you in fact, are.

[genderfluidarchive]

if you're genderfluid and having an identity crisis again, and feeling frustrated, listen

the "actually im definitely transmasc/agender/pangender. idk why i felt _____ before/thought i was _____" is literally what makes you genderfluid.

you were _____, and now you aren't. genderFLUID.

internalized fluidphobia is just kicking your ass again

[pinktwingirl]

Uh yeah so if she’s not gender-fluid then neither is Loki, because they’re literally the same person. Thanks for clearing that up, Marvel. Keep digging that grave deeper 🙄

[musclesandhammering]

Hard pills to swallow: The only reason they even gave us a vague one-sentence bi confirmation was cause they already knew they were gonna make it up to straight people by having loki randomly fall in love with the only female version of himself and then base the entire series around it.

[myersesque]

i'm so genuinely disappointed that the loki series just wasn't rlly for me bc like. there r so many aspects of it that i love but the overall execution was just... meh

[arklayraven]

first I left the marvel fandom because of the fluidphobia and queerphobia, then DC for similar reasons(also too much drama in general), then got into OM now...but god compared to both marvel and dc combined. never have I ever dealt with this much shit personally to the point I feel not safe and welcomed now by some very loud/controlling people?

and I fucking made callout posts calling out FLUIDPHOBIA AND QUEERPHOBIA in the past. And even dared to defend Loki's pansexuality against openly hateful and often threatening PANPHOBES.

But NEVER has it gotten this bad from that all.

Like...god...

what the fuck...seriously.

[nikkoliferous]

Racism, Ableism, Transphobia, Oh My!

The Many Times We Were Lied to About Canonizing Loki’s Genderfluidity

Visibility Does Not Equal Representation

More on the Problems With Loki (2021)’s Black “Representation”

Episode One’s Mongolia Scene Was Also Pretty Racist

Sexism, Fluidphobia and Transphobia in Episode Five

On Framing the Irredeemably Evil TVA as Good and/or Necessary

Toxic Messaging in Loki (2021): A Summary

Loki (2021) Is A Show Made By and For Bullies

The Horrifying Totalitarianism of the TVA

The Obvious Bad Guys Who Weren’t

How Marvel’s Glorification of Abuse Retraumatises Victims

The Hidden Harm in How Marvel Has Handled Loki’s “Adoption”

Loki (2021)’s Extremely Problematic Villainising of Black Characters

Forcing Loki to “Admit” His Inferiority is Not Character Growth

Loki’s Jewish-Coding Makes Loki (2021)’s Framing of the TVA as a Necessary Evil Especially Disturbing

Misandry, Toxic Masculinity and Queerphobia in Loki (2021)

Loki (2021)’s Transphobic Promotion of Autogynephilia

The Grotesque Framing of the TVA Intake (aka Stripping) Scene

It’s the Framing, Stupid

The Disturbing Hypocrisy of How Loki’s Crimes Against Other People Are Framed vs. Their Crimes Against Him

Loki (2021) Suffers Due to the Showrunners’ Inability to Decide Whether the TVA is Good or Evil

Villain Discourse: You Cannot Beat or Shame People Into Mental Wellness

↩️ back to the compendium

[mischief-lies-and-stories]

Loki's Genderfluidity in the MCU: A Theory

So I'm going to preface this by saying that generally my answers to any questions that are not answered by canon have two sides: why I think the writers didn't answer the question (or how they may have thought they answered the question), and my theory relating to the canon answer. Within these two sides there might be multiple reasons (i.e., Side one may have been caused by script cuts or homophobia at some level of writing/editing, and both could easily be the case simultaneously, as maybe the writers included it and the studio demanded a script cut at a certain point, etc.).

So as to why Loki has not been explicitly shown to be genderfluid in the MCU until (technically) a split-second shot of a TVA file, is probably more because of erasure/fluidphobia or a disinterest in incorporating his comic gender into his mainstream movie character at some level in the production process. Why the half-hearted "representation" was included in the show without anything more explicit was likely A) a continued fluidphobia or disinterest at some level, B) a distinct lack of understanding of what genderfluidity actually is, and therefore probably only placed in the file as a bit of foreshadowing to Sylvie's gender reveal, or C) a laziness and disinterest in doing any research whatsoever in either genderfluidity or the source material (Agent of Asgard, etc.). Likely a combination of these.

But that's boring and disheartening. So I'm going to ignore the IRL reasons why Loki's genderfluid rep fell flat, and focus on why Loki hasn't been shown to be genderfluid in the MCU until technically the show but not even really then.

I've seen theories that he hasn't figured this out about himself yet, and while that may be true (I didn't discover I'm genderfluid until I was about 22 or 23), I don't usually subscribe to that theory.

My genderfluidity (and that of other people I've met) tends to change between genders by the day, though occasionally I go multiple days in a row as the same gender, or my gender changes within a single day. However, I'm also human, and (as far as I'm aware) have an average human lifespan of less than a hundred years, or only a few years past a hundred if I'm lucky. So daily changes between genders is pretty reasonable, but even other real-life genderfluid people sometimes stay the same gender for whole months or years or even decades.

Loki, on the other hand, is not human. I don't know what the average Jotun lifespan is, but I think he's currently about 1500 years old, and Asgardians live about 5000 years, I believe. So it makes sense that things might be less permanent for him than they are for other people, and things that may change more quickly for humans may change more slowly for him.

Therefore, I think Loki in the MCU (ignoring for the sake of this that any inclusion or omission in media is a decision made by writers, in other words, pretending for a hot second that Loki is real in the context of his story) is genderfluid, and that he's aware that he's genderfluid throughout and before the events of the MCU. The reason he only presents as Tom Hiddleston's likeness, and is referred to as he/him and Thor's brother, is that it is currently a man several decades for him. (If this does not make sense to you grammatically, compare to how I describe days when I am a woman as woman days; days when I am a man as man days; likewise, Loki is having a man decade and a half.) At the least, his current period of being a man has lasted 12 years, from Thor (2011) until now (though, actually, Loki season 2 Loki is technically 2012 Loki, so maybe he's only had a man year? Which would make the original timeline Loki's period at least 5 years as a man. God, I hate time travel). This is assuming he was not a man before 2011 (consecutively; I don't think this is the only period he has been a man in his life) and would not have continued as a man following his death (if he died) in Infinity War. But (aside from very short flashbacks) this is the only period of time we see him, so he could conceivably have had periods of other genders. (And we don't know for sure that the flashbacks came after he learned how to shapeshift; maybe he wasn't a boy in those scenes, but was either not yet out or unable to make his body match his identity and so we as the viewers made incorrect assumptions about his gender.)

I also wonder if the moment we see from Sylvie's childhood, just before she's taken in, could have also been part of Loki's past. Either A) it is just after they both come out and begin socially transitioning (Sylvie as a transgirl, Loki as genderfluid and a girl at that moment), and Sylvie gets taken in for having a good heart but perceives the reason as being that she's a girl (see previous theory post), whereas Loki isn't playing Save Asgard and so there's no reason to arrest him in this moment (I think the game was less the main reason and more the last straw for Sylvie), or B) The entire memory, including the Save Asgard game but not the arrest, is shared by both Sylvie and Loki, and Sylvie was arrested for a different reason. The point is, Loki could have had a time as a child when he was a girl and learned to shapeshift so his appearance fit his inside feelings (or Frigga did it for him when he was really little to ease the dysphoria).

[youlackconviction]

had some fun on twitter today lol. a series stan came @ me with some of the above so i decided to compile them and other common genuine responses that i’ve seen to LOKI-series-critical meta and create a fun little game for y’all.

if you want to use this board go ahead, i’d appreciate a credit back this blog or my twitter @ulackconviction if you do use it, so i can follow your threads myself. just save the pic, mark which responses you’ve received from fans of the LOKI series, and reblog with your edited bingo card.

below i the cut will quote each one and my own response to each “argument”.

if you hate sylki then you are biphobic - no, i hate sylki for many reasons but alleged bisexuality is not one. how about, the toxic abuse dynamic sylvie sets up towards LOKI? let’s start there.

you don’t want your uwu emo boy LOKI to heal - incorrect. i’d love for him to finally get a chance to be heard and acknowledged, genuinely cared for and shown how to let go of his unresolved trauma. but that would require a compassionate person talking about it and showing it, none of which the series did.

it’s not incest they don’t have the same parents - they literally have the same father: laufey of jotunnheim.

it’s not self-cest that’s a made-up thing - well. hard to say really isn’t it? since the showrunners have both defined sylvie as “a LOKI” and as “not a LOKI” in the same breath. obviously it’s a fantasy concept, but people will have their opinions about that either way.

why don’t y’all just move on and shut up? - rude. why should we? LOKI is important to us and the series is hurtful and disappointing, and we will shut up when we feel like it. maybe never. cry about it.

if you don’t like it then don’t watch it - we like LOKI tho. and that’s who we were promised. that’s why we watched it. the damage is done.

y’all are just mad that lokius is not canon - lmao if there’s one thing to not be mad about in this shitshow, that would be it. mobius is just as toxic and abusive to LOKI as sylvie is, so it’s just as well.

LOKI is just a selfish villain - citations needed thanks. i’ll wait. not even the series managed to portray him that way so... good luck.

sylvie is not LOKI she’s her own person - ok... if she’s not LOKI why is she dressed like him? why does everyone in the series call her the superior LOKI variant? why was LOKI’s help enlisted in the first place to capture her? why does she say “we are the same person” to him?

sylvie is LOKI so genderfluid rep is on screen every time she is - wait what? she is LOKI now? hang on... i think i have whiplash. and more questions. also, an individual presenting and identifying consistently as a single binary gender throughout their entire appearance does not constitute genderfluidity representation.

mobius did not torture LOKI it was therapy - therapy. right. so physical violence, threats of further violence/death, repetitive physical brutality for the purposes of “softening up” the candidate (yes that can also be defined as torture), intimidation, and misrepresenting the truth for manipulative purposes (you killed your mother) is therapeutic. got it.

fluidphobia is not a real thing - genderfluid folks would disagree. let’s ask them?

go touch grass - one of my favourites, gotta say. for all you know i’m typing this on my phone while laying in a hay paddock lol.

misogynist, you obviously just hate women - again. the reasons i can’t stand sylvie are many and varied, and none of them have anything to do with her biology or gender. disliking one (1) woman because of her actions and personality is not logical grounds for such an accusation.

well tom loves the series so... - uh, good for him? i think tom loves tennis too... doesn’t mean i have to enjoy it, nor i suspect would he insist that it’s unreasonable for me not to do so. my brain is actually separated from tom’s by the entire molten core of a planet, so i can actually think my own thoughts about things.

LOKI is out of character in the series because he learned self love - okay so he learned self-love the instant he fell from the sky above that mongolian settlement? because that’s the moment when he ceased to resemble MCU LOKI in any way, shape, or form. hair, skin colour, mannerisms, personality, vocabulary, physical strength, intelligence, fighting ability, grace, wit, charm. wow. incredible. who knew it would be so easy? and who knew self-love would look so shitty?

LOKI is not out of character in the series compared to the films - um... actually he is, and it can easily be demonstrated with simple side-by-side comparisons of appearance, posture and body language, abilities, and speech patterns. see above.

LOKI is out of character in all the movies and now we see his real self - this is such incredible nonsense - it’s impossible for a character to be out of character in their seminal appearance(s). thor 2011 established LOKI’s character. this claim is right up there with “LOKI acts differently from the movies when he’s off camera.” um... what? hun, this is a movie. there is ONLY on-camera. there IS nothing else. are you confusing BTS footage of tom with LOKI?

series antis have no friends - one in a range of irrelevant and unsubstantiated personal attacks that series fans like to sprinkle into their arguments as if it somehow strengthens them, rather than revealing them to be three children in a trench coat hurling insults.

everything you think about LOKI is just a headcanon - no... the stuff that i know about him was told to me by the films, and by the writers and directors of the films, and by tom back when he was first engaged for the role. all of it is coherent and consistent. and that’s what i think about LOKI.

i’m not going to read/watch that! but you are wrong - incredible powers of deduction: to refuse to even engage with a piece of media or information and yet claim to know everything it contains, and be able to judge its accuracy. truly amazing.

LOKI isn’t going to fuck you - again, more absolute gold from a person who has literally run out of rebuttals. when you consider the barriers to such a liaison... crossing the boundaries of reality no less... lol imagine if this is how political debates were conducted in parliament or the senate. “the president/senator/prime minister/queen isn’t going to fuck you, you know!” lmaoooo.

LOKI is a narcissist to fall in love with himself - look up NPD, and then read this again. also, LOKI actually hates himself and goes along with others’ ridicule of him because his self-worth is literally in the gutter. he only likes sylvie because he describes her as being nothing like himself. he has no idea that he has any value.

your anti opinions are taking away my enjoyment - ok so... don’t read them? block me or mute me or whatever, and get on with your life? it’s not like you have any kind of past attachment to me like series-antis do with LOKI?

i never liked LOKI before the series anyhow - i mean that’s fine. but don’t even start trying to tell people who actually do know and love the original character, ANYTHING at all about him. don’t even start.

sylvie’s trauma is worse than LOKI’s - how do we even know? and why is that even relevant? how do you judge what damage a person has incurred by comparing it to some other different person with different experiences? fuck off with your trauma olympics. but since you made it a competition: LOKI wins. i care about him, i don’t care about sylvie. therefore his pain and opportunity for healing will always be more important to me. die mad about it.

even if the series hurt minorities, how many people even is that, tho - literally a remark one of my friends received when defending genderfluid folks on her blog. so apparently according to series fans, you actually can put a number on how much real-world suffering is okay for the sake of entertainment.

sylvie is not a narcissist to fall in love with herself - interesting, since in the show LOKI was explicitly labelled one for this exact reason. an “incredible seismic narcissist”, in fact. there wouldn’t be a serious double standard in play at all, would there?

no one cares what you think - well i have evidence to the contrary: both from people who agree with me letting me know; and from those who don’t being unable to resist coming at me and berating me for it. including the person who said this, ironically.

you just hate sylki cos you want to fuck your siblings - another incredible take by a series fan defending the canon ship. i really can’t follow their line of argument here... it’s unclear what message they want me to walk away with. surely if i hated the ship for incest reasons it would be because i DON’T want to fuck my siblings? (for the record, i do not). so that was a confusing one, but it was a real response, so it got included.

[iamnmbr3]

How is the loki tv series sexist?

I'd start with these 3 posts from the excellent compendium compiled by @nikkoliferous

Sexism, Fluidphobia and Transphobia In Episode 5

Sylvie And The Problem With “Strong Female Characters”

Misandry, Toxic Masculinity and Queerphobia in The Loki Series

[pinktwingirl]

Things I Learned from the Loki Series:

Abuse is okay as long as a woman is doing it to a man

Fascism is good, actually

Being treated with basic human decency is something you have to earn

If you’ve made mistakes in the past, the only way to be redeemed is to accept being constantly insulted, humiliated, and physically assaulted

Genderfluid people are weird and deserve to be ignored/made fun of

What great messages! 🙄

[frosty-the-killer-doll]

thinking about the genderfluid euphoria she must have gone through when Charlie finally got her shapeshifting abilities back. the power to sprout a beard out of nowhere, to change her voice on a whim, never having to wear a binder again, never having to experience any dysphoria again since she could just change herself as soon as it set in. the ability to have the Legends look at her for once and not immediately see Amaya the Woman. the small joy of seeing them stumble slightly when calling her a she, even if that's what she is... to be recognized fully, finally as a Sometimes Woman without the effort or explaining it.

(this post was made by a genderfluid person, don't derail to talk about the fluidphobia in assigning genderfluidity on only shapeshifters)

[jujianjes]

I just wanna say that this tiktok video is so fucking stupid

that was not "modern feminism"

that was fluidphobia, thank you very much

[love-laugh-daydreamarevolt]

I got into LOKI expecting genderfluid rep.I got disappointment and fluidphobia instead

[arklayraven]

Feel like I need to say this to make it clear again even more now.

Queerphobes and transphobes in the OM fandom.

Do not interact with me or my blog.

As a queer and trans person myself(who identifies as pan, abro, gray-ace and genderfluid). This is a queer and trans safe space for queer and trans OM players and fans.

Any and all queerphobia and transphobia, even from other queer OM players/fans. Are not welcomed here. (Yes, some of you queer fans/players have been saying some queerphobic shit lately. Especially over Asmo. No idea if you're realizing this but it's been happening and its not okay.)

Exclusionists aren't welcomed here. Panphobia isn't welcomed here. Mspecphobia isn't welcomed here. Fluidphobia isn't welcomed here. Transphobia isn't welcome here. ETC.

[ao3feed-lokiangst]

Lackey

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/pG3tA6b

by orphan_account

He couldn't trust anyone.

Words: 1118, Chapters: 1/1, Language: English

Fandoms: Thor (Movies), Thor (Comics), Loki (TV 2021)

Rating: Explicit

Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Rape/Non-Con, Underage

Categories: M/M, Multi, Other

Characters: Loki (Marvel), Fandral (Marvel), Theoric (Marvel), Original Male Character(s)

Relationships: Fandral/Loki (Marvel), Loki/others

Additional Tags: I just made up the male characters and gave then scandinavian names, Forced Feminization, fluidphobia, Queerphobia, Castration Threats, Victim-blaming, Bullying, cocsa, Hazing

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/pG3tA6b