#i just haven't seen anything in the narrative that would point to the fact that his eventual choice will be to remain an angel

[david-watts]

I will not fall into the trap of rewriting everything because my writing skills have improved since starting the work

[makingqueerhistory]

One thing that is relevant to my work in Making Queer History is the fact that I never went to university. To be honest, I used to be really ashamed of that. Because of that shame, I often give alternative narratives around queer history a bit more grace, assuming that the person spouting them has more experience than I do. I have been working in queer history for eight years now, but I'm well aware that I haven't seen even a fraction of what is out there to find.

For a while I forced myself to watch James Somerton videos because he spoke about history in a way I had never heard before. I assumed that meant he knew something I didn't. Eventually, he crossed a line with sexist critiques that were borderline nonsensical, so I stopped watching. But there was still that persistent feeling of unease. Like maybe I just wasn't educated enough to understand him.

To be frank, James Somerton is a cisgender gay man with a degree, so I gave his words more leeway than I should have. That's a character flaw I need to work on. But the bigger picture is that there is an image a lot of people have around expertise. We are lucky that someone of similar standing in that regard spoke out. But let's not pretend that people hadn't already pulled the alarm. In the video that stripped away Somerton's reputation bit by bit (and outside of it), there were many moments of queer women and trans people pointing out problems with his work. I would go so far as to say that it's likely that even more queer women and trans people who felt something wrong but didn't say anything. Like I didn't. Because, at best, you start drama against someone who is well-respected. At worst, you lose your own credibility.

I have had cisgender people explain trans history to me, and I let them. I have had uneducated people tell me that Greece was the pinnacle of queer history, and I let them. I have had James Somerton spout nonsense at me, and I let him. I would hope that through this, I learn to be cognizant of when the image of expertise overwhelms the reality of it.

[mrs-monaghan]

Claiming you are a OT7 army but pushing and promoting the hate towards taehyung makes you a hypocrite.

Jkkrs are slowly becoming the vermin by pushing false narratives to match their perception of taehyung. It has come to a point whereby we are also starting to base reality of Jikook around villainizing Taehyung. It disappointing honestly to undermine a 10+ year relationship that vmin publicly claimed as soulmates just becuz of social media posts. Dubbing words such as envious to a person Jimin deems important to him is utterly disrespectful.

At the end of the day... WE DO NOT KNOW THEM... so we should believe in their words rather than conspiracies that lead to outrageous conclusions. We jkkrs always preach about how we should only believe in what Jimin and Jungkook say but here we are disrespecting Jimin's words. Words that was just spoken in last week's Sapporo episode.

The truth of the matter is that Jimin and Taehyung are still very close. It justifiable hating Taehyung's subfandoms but hating him is not becuz it based off baseless theories.

More and more each day we jkkrs are starting to resemble the vermin. So fuckin disappointed.

I know you need a Jikooker to yell at, but I take issues when people accuse me of things I haven't personally done. Just because other Jikookers are acting a certain way, if I haven't done what they're doing, I resent being accused of it.

I. Shaz. Love. V. I wouldn't say that if I didnt. Trust me. Or don't. Either way, read this

I had this talk with some friends on discord but here is the thing. I may still care about V but I can understand why some people have washed their hands off of him. I've said this 1000 times but as long as Jikook keep loving V, so will I. But that doesn't have anything to do with holding V accountable for his actions. Jimin and JK may be okay with him, but us as fans are still allowed to question his behaviour.

Jikookers will complain that during FACE everyone and their dog made posts supporting the album except V. Then people like u will say, you don't know them personally, V probably praised him privately. And I would counter with the fact that V posted about Dday and TXT's album. Does that mean he didn't praise them privately???

Same thing happened with MUSE even though the guy finds a way to still be online all the time even while enlisted.

When Jikook were enlisting he posted that shirtless facetime screenshot of JK. Was Jimin not enlisting too?? Why didn't he post about him?

JK himself has come online to correct things that V said. Pointing out that, that's not how it happened. So if JK himself feels the need to correct misinformation, why are we being side eyed?

V promotes everyone except for Jimin, the vermin notice this just like we do and do you know what happens? They go to town on Jimin talking about how V only promotes good music. That Jimin makes garbage music and that's why V can't support it.

I assume you're here due to that post I just made about them not knowing eo as well as they used to. Bro, I ain't making this up. We have seen this with our own eyes. Them trying to guess things about eo and ending up being wrong. That wouldn't have happened way back when. I could talk about the many, many times he has gone quiet only to finally post when the fandom is focused on Jimin.

You say that we don't listen to members, except that's all I do. I watch Vmin chronologically and they're not the same. U would see it too if u did the same. Jimin seems tighter with Jungkook Jhope and V seems tighter with the Wooga Squad. And like I mentioned before, we've seen on original content JK come online to ammend something V said so... how is that me not listening to members? RM saying that V is not very good at self awareness, how is that not me listening to members?

Anon, Vmin aren't the same. U wanna live in denial thats fine. But don't be mad when those of us confident enough to talk about it, do.

.

.

.

Tkkrs hate Jimin because of his bond with JK. But Jimin has never done anything to V. Additionally he does things that makes those morons come for Jimin everyday. That's why jkkrs get upset with him. We don't have an issue with him just because he hangs out with JK or is the closest to JK (he not) And that is why angry anon, we will never be like the vermin.

[directdogman]

(Sorry if I have bad English, I'm from Spain.)

I'm super hyperfixated on the original managers, so I have 2 questions.

1. In Dialtown, Tango/Terrence says no one called him Tango before. Assuming that in the DSaF universe he also liked that nickname, did any of the other original managers call him Tango or not?

2. A headcanon I've seen in the DSaF fandom is that Abel hated everyone BUT the real Scott Cawthon, and that Scott was the only one that tolerated Abel (some ppl even ship them). Is that close to canon? Or the og Scott Cawthon also hated Abel? I really want to know what they thought about each other.

Btw, I really love your games, I've played the DSaF trilogy many times, and the Dialtown demo (I haven't played the full version of Dialtown yet, but I've seen gameplays and I'll buy it for my birthday), thank you for making 4 incredible games <3

I don't answer many DSaF questions these days, but this one's interesting so here goes:

1)Tango's nickname is a DT invention as far as I remember. If he preferred the name in DSaF's universe, Harry would've used it for sure, given how much he liked Terrence and since he's literally using a name he doesn't believe is really 'his' because it makes him feel better. He of all people would understand.

2)Yeah, that's a pretty good way of stating it, but there's a little more nuance to it that explains a little bit more about Abel/Joe's rift.

Basically, the original Scott Cawthon was a unifying figure. He got on with every single one of the original managers and they all thought the world of him. The Phone Guy process was started in an attempt to recreate him by Abel (and the other managers at first) and you gotta consider why they'd all want to do that. He was the glue that held the group together, the only manager liked by everyone else there without exception, someone who could defuse tension and resolve conflicts amicably.

It's true that he had the most patience for Abel and never badmouthed Abel to the other managers and even defended him earnestly, knowing Abel the best of the other managers and knowing some of Abel's early life and where he came from, while the others were more willing to honestly discuss Abel's short fuse and occasionally mean nature (even Terrence to some extent!) This led Abel to develop more of a bond with him than the other managers and somewhat distrust the others.

While Abel was essentially Scott's number 2, as time went on, Joe became more and more integral to the running of their budding company, since he was a skilled accountant and managed to balance the books despite Scott's somewhat reckless spending at times (he was overgenerous to the point where it sometimes led to financial trouble for the company, a stark contrast to what Freddy's became later.) Since Joe was so blunt (and Abel's biggest critic), Abel was incredibly jealous and insecure that if the trend continued, Joe would supplant him.

This also explains why Abel was so willing to toss his other managers into the 'machine' when each of them suffered accidents. Ultimately, it wasn't just sheer cowardice, it was him trying to recreate the past - to recreate the one person who seemingly saw him as anything other than a vampire. Someone who actually wanted him around. Of course, no two snowflakes are ever exactly the same. Abel was a poor replacement as the owner of the company, Joe was barely able to keep things afloat amidst a messy and chaotic expansion and Harry wound up presiding over the company's demise.

There's a pretty widespread narrative theme in DSaF of damaged people trying to recreate something they've lost - Dave trying to turn Jack into the new Henry, Jake and his family, Harry and his former identity, the Kennedy family reuniting.

“Can’t repeat the past? Why, of course you can!”

But, the fact is, you can't recreate the past. The only way forward is to pick up the pieces and build something new.

[leonardcohenofficial]

hello i would love to hear your general thoughts re: tenmartha if you feel like sharing them

okay so many thoughts about dr. martha jones and the doctor but one of the main ones is that despite popular (misogynoir-driven) belief, martha's character as written is much stronger than people give the series credit for. i think so much of her very strong character development and arc (based in her growing into her self-sufficiency, which was always there from the start and demonstrated in her constant analysis and questioning in the search for the most info to make the right decisions) is overshadowed by fandom racism, too much focus given to the unrequited crush storyline (which is also key to her arc, but is also something that she very distinctly and importantly gets over!), and general "she's not rose" sentiment. i think it's really interesting that unlike rose or donna whose narrative arcs need them to become super-human, martha essentially becomes the doctor's equal by the end of her run, if not surpassing him given the fact that as a human, she doesn't have those same otherworldly powers as him.

while i think the narrative of season three ultimately lets her come out on top, i think there is a big cost to that, for both martha the character and for the viewers. even separate from fandom racism there are so many moments of racism in the series that i don't think actually do anything to further the storytelling (literally fuck the whole human nature/the family of blood storyline) and that puts a damper on much of that whole year for me despite loving the characters. i also understand why the doctor (via the writers) is constantly comparing martha to rose, but the moments where martha calls him out on it—while they are certainly there—aren't always enough. i think that fact that martha also begins as fairly dependent on the doctor's validation (which like. makes total sense, she has no idea how all this works and is getting thrown into insane scenarios with no info from the jump) gets reduced to calling the character "needy" which just simply isn't true. this is also something that i think people focus on a bit too much rather than seeing how that particular character trait shifts throughout her season.

all this to say, when tenmartha is good, it's fantastic. freema agyeman and david tennant's chemistry is so on point, and that saves a lot of otherwise mediocre-to-bad writing. from the jump martha is shown to be so SO fucking smart, self-reliant, willing to take risk, and uninterested in the doctor's bullshit; when the doctor isn't just whining in the post-rose hangover or treating her like crap, he recognizes how powerful she is AND how much potential she has to continue to hone her skills, which is why he trusts her so inherently and ends up leaning on her so much during that season. the fact that he manipulates her emotionally to me is equal parts hard to watch and based writing-wise in a lot of the aforementioned -isms AND interesting character development from him because we haven't really seen that type of messy fucked up (human) behavior from the doctor. and then martha leaves on her own terms, which no other companion has gotten to do (clara's storyline feels different in that regard to me). she realizes she doesn't need him, arguably becomes his equal (or surpasses him) in terms of skill, and makes it out alive. imho that's a pretty big accomplishment.

[poorlittleyaoyao]

An Exhaustive Explanation For Why Qin Su Took Her Life Of Her Own Volition

(Or: For God's Sake, Please Just Let Her Have This One Thing)

Okay, so let's leave aside the fact that Wei Wuxian is an unreliable narrator. At the point in the novel at which he insists that Jin Guangyao must have forced Qin Su to kill herself somehow, Wei Wuxian has also insisted that Lan Wangji would totally hate it if he knew they'd made out while drunk. Let's also leave aside that Wei Wuxian himself will reassess his opinion of Qin Su's death later on, and IIRC says nothing about it either way in the drama, because the people who insist that JGY Definitely Killed Made Her Do That sure do. A narrator being unreliable doesn't mean we can't trust anything they tell us, after all; it just means we need to compare their views to outside evidence, the way you would with a primary source document.

AND WHEN YOU DO THAT

IT STILL MAKES ZERO SENSE

Picture all this from Jin Guangyao's standpoint. Let's assume for funsies that you don't care about your wife who is also your half-sister, and have no compunctions about killing her to keep the incest secret. Wouldn't you just... do that? Wouldn't you kill her the second that little paperman flies away and you hear the alarm?

"He obviously couldn't do that! The paperman saw her alive so it'd be weird if she suddenly was gone!" Yeah, and everyone at the cultivation conference saw her alive when they came into the treasure-and-torture room, and it would be even weirder if she suddenly stabbed herself to death in front of them.

"Ah, but he needed to know who sent her the letter! He can't afford to kill her!" Wow, hey, that's right! You, Evil Jin Guangyao, have just spent the preceding scene wheedling and then threatening Qin Su so she'll tell you who send the letter, and she stood firm the whole time! So forcing her to kill herself in front of everyone when she still hasn't told you that important piece of information would be PRETTY DUMB, wouldn't it? (Almost as dumb as giving her the opportunity to interact with all the people you're trying to keep the secret from, but hey, maybe it took you longer to hide da-ge's head than anticipated.)

"Maybe he'd given up on getting her to tell him anything so her killing herself was to divert suspicion away from him!" Okay, first of all, how is "your wife (whom nobody but you has seen recently) kills herself with no warning" going to make things look LESS suspicious? Second of all, things were going JUST FINE. You hid da-ge's head. People were buying your "this cursed cabinet is where I keep my former boss's soul-stealing knife" story. You haven't even subtly brought up Suibian to change the subject. The narrative misogyny means that nobody has directly talked to Qin Su and "of course my wife also hangs out in our house, lol" is flying just fine as an explanation. You had almost put out this fire! Why would you throw gasoline on it by making Qin Su kill herself?

Honestly, the smartest thing for you to do in this situation would be to knock your wife unconscious and move her to her sleeping chambers or a couch or something in the main part of the palace. That gets her out of sight and renders her unable to talk in a way that won't raise suspicions, and gives you the option of going "omg guyyys my wife is sleeping :( this totally unwarranted search of our home is gonna wake her up :(" to make people leave!

But, okay. Let's shift our perspectives here. Jin Guangyao has a history of making deranged choices when he's in Panic Mode. Maybe his brain short-circuited and, somehow, he decided that MAKE QIN SU KILL HERSELF IN PUBLIC was the best course of action. Wei Wuxian himself tells us that she wasn't under the influence of talismans or anything, so somehow Jin Guangyao convinced her to do this with his words. Never mind that we just saw Jin Guangyao deploy an ungodly combination of feigned ignorance, gaslighting, actual sincerity, veiled threats, and manipulation with zero impact. Somehow, he used his words successfully.

What could he possibly say?

Picture all this, now, from Qin Su's standpoint. Your entire world has been shattered. Your husband who is also your half-brother has been lying to you for your entire marriage, has done nothing to reassure you that he didn't murder your son, and has sealed your meridians to prevent you from fleeing. He then brought you into a secret room in your home that you didn't know existed and which, you discover, houses his sworn brother's severed head. All you know is that you cannot tell Jin Guangyao who gave you the letter because you're certain that he will have her killed. Shit's real fucked and you have nobody to help you.

Now every sect leader in the jianghu--including your husband's remaining sworn brother, your young nephew, and your nephew's maternal uncle--has shown up to search your husband's home. His top priority in this moment is quashing their suspicions so they leave him alone enough to regroup.

One of three things must be true for you.

1.) Your top priority is survival. You don't want to die. If you care about your reputation, you know that you're as screwed as he is if word of this gets out, and unfortunately the only way to survive is to play along with your husband's weird shit, at least for now. In that case, the best way to assure him that you're on his team is to help him assure the other sect leaders that Everything Is Normal And Fine. If you don't want to die, then you're not going to be susceptible to any insistence that you kill yourself.

2.) You're so furious that you don't care what happens to you or your reputation as long as you take Jin Guangyao down with you. In that case, you'd tell him whatever he wanted to hear and then IMMEDIATELY scream to the other sect leaders where Nie Mingjue's head is currently located, or you'd drop the incest bomb yourself hoping that the paperman is somewhere in that room and can back you up, or you'd grab that dagger and stab your husband, or some combination of all three! You're not going to quietly kill yourself at his request, because you've suffered enough for his bullshit!

"Well, maybe he didn't threaten her. She's going to be worried about Bicao and her father. Maybe he threatened one of them!" Yeah, maybe, but that's a threat to get someone to cooperate. You can't make sure they're still alive if you're dead! And if you're convinced that this guy has lied to you constantly for the past 10+ years, you're not going to believe him when he says"kill yourself and I'll be niceys to them." There is nothing at all that he could say to make her harm herself if she hadn’t been so inclined.

And that leaves

3.) You're in such despair that you actively want to die. You can never trust your husband again. You can never trust anyone again, honestly, because he wasn't the only person you loved who kept this secret from you. You don't trust that the other sect leaders will do anything to help you, just as your mother didn't trust that anyone would do anything to help her all those years ago. (When they barge into the palace and walk straight past you as though you were a piece of furniture, your distrust is confirmed.) Maybe, despite everything, you still love your husband too much to kill him. Maybe you fear that, without evidence, he will be seen as an innocent victim and you will be seen as his mad, murderous wife. Maybe you don't care what happens to anyone else, but you know that you don't want to deal with this anymore, and you are the only one you trust to help yourself escape it.

The tragedy of Qin Su is that she is never permitted to make a fully informed decision about her life. At least let her final action be something she knowingly chooses.

[crossdressingdeath]

DAI does that with a lot of things. Morrigan gets to claim to be a Elven expert, even though you know that is far from the truth if you've played Origins where she didn't know shit. Cullen gets final say in his dialogue options despite you knowing that he's lying. Grey Wardens gets shit on and the Inquisitor can wildly overstep.

DAI has this weird mix of a) expecting you to have read all the books/comics so that they don't have to explain anything and b) assuming that you haven't played the previous games so they can try to rewrite what happened.

Yeah, the required reading for DAI was ridiculous. WEaWH is always the big one because most of the others you can get by without it (even Cole's backstory isn't necessary to appreciate and understand the character, and enough of it comes up in-game to get by), but knowing what Celene and Gaspard did is kind of fucking important, Bioware. And then even when Celene purging the alienage comes up it's used as a mark against Briala for being in a relationship with her at the time even though if I'm understanding the excerpts I've seen of TME Briala breaks it off as a direct result of the purge and (as Dorian rightly points out) that'd be more Celene's scandal than Briala's anyway. Like, they try to make Celene purging the alienage into Briala's crime because she was sleeping with the empress at the time and that's just... ugh. But it's like, I would argue that it would be fair and honestly best practice to assume that people playing the third game in a series have played the first two games? DA has an overarching narrative even if the connections aren't particularly close, if someone wants to start partway through they can but the writing should expect people to be familiar with the games' stories. Maybe have some codex entries summarizing the previous games or a little intro cutscene, but... I don't know, I'm worried about the fact that apparently DAV doesn't need you to have played the first three games when literally all the setup for it is in DAI. Expecting people to have played all the games in a narrative-driven RPG series and not to have jumped in partway through is fair! Expecting people to have read five supplementary novels and two coffee table lore books to understand the plot is ridiculous. At least Tevinter Nights and The Missing so far seem to only be relevant to DAV in that they show some glimpses of what's been going on between games and give us a point of reference for some of the new characters...

The thing that gets me with DAI is that the game really wants you to side with the Templars whether it makes sense or not. Like... let's take the choice between mages and Templars as an example. The game wants you to side with the Templars. It really does, it tries its best to dissuade the player from siding with the mages if you go that route (Cullen's little "Oh... it's so dangerous... we shouldn't do it..." routine is notable when compared to Leliana and Josie, both of whom favour the mages, being very professional about you picking the Templars), it does its utmost to claim that the rebellion was unwarranted when it absolutely was not, the rebels are constantly framed as weak or mean or evil or stupid while the Templars were just misled (by... a guy who told them he'd let them murder all the mages and left out the "in service to Corypheus" bit, they still joined his little walkout to murder people, but the game doesn't get into that), it even lets you switch quests well past what should've been the point of no return if you're on the mage route (WHY CAN YOU SWITCH AFTER LEARNING THERE'S A FUCKING MAGISTER IN FERELDEN TRYING TO ENSLAVE A BUNCH OF MAGES, BIOWARE, WHY THE FUCK IS THAT AN OPTION) whereas with the Templars you can't even learn what your advisors' plan for getting you in alive is until you're locked in. And I'm not going to lie, CotJ is legitimately the better quest. I did it once to see and god damn it is quality, I don't dislike IHW but... yeah CotJ is definitely stronger.

But then you actually look at the story and... why the fuck would you side with the Templars? They left the Chantry because the Divine told them not to murder people. That's explicit, people tell you that repeatedly. They're making excuses for it, but there's always an acknowledgement that... yep, that's why the Templars left, they wanted to kill people and were mad about being told no. Leliana (the most familiar face among the advisors and given Cassandra's previous appearance was threatening Varric and Cullen's was playing yes man to Meredith for nine years and only changing sides once she became a threat to him/because not doing so would mean fighting Hawke Leliana's the one people are most likely to want to side with) is pro-mage and dismisses Cullen's claims that the Templars could help close the Breach as speculation. Which... it is. This situation is completely unprecedented, no one knows what's going to happen. But given mages are incredibly powerful and Templars are repeatedly portrayed as mostly useless in any sort of real danger that doesn't involve children or indoctrinated Circle mages (it is not a coincidence that the only people locked in the tower in Broken Circle who survive with their minds and bodies intact without the demons actively choosing to let them live for funsies are mages; the only Templar who's alive and unpossessed is Cullen, and the demons very obviously could've killed him at any time and just chose not to because they were having fun toying with him) I'm gonna say the mages are a safer bet. Also because... they invited Quiz. That could be a trap, but you know what's definitely a trap? Walking into a fortress full of heavily-armed mage killers who openly want you dead. Meeting with the Templars is really, really stupid (especially if you're a mage) and you don't even learn the plan for getting you inside unharmed until you actually select the quest. Also that plan is basically just "if there are witnesses with societal power the Templars can't murder you unprovoked" because reminder: the Templars are the absolute worst. Why would you ever want these people around. And then if you meet with the mages first like "Well I'll figure it out once I've heard what they have to say, I don't have to commit if I do things this way so I might as well" you learn that there's a Tevinter magister serving an evil Tevinter cult just chilling in Redcliffe and why the fuck would you go to the Templars at that point this needs to be dealt with. The game wants you to side with the Templars but it gives you no reason to do so, I really wonder sometimes if the writers weren't talking to each other at all.

[nova-streyart]

The Thing about Belos Nobody Mentions

There's an aspect of Belos I haven't seen anyone talk about yet: him potentially being on the schizophrenia spectrum, or schizospec for short, and everything that means. Before you say anything, I am a schizoaffective person. This is my interpretation. This is based off my own experiences with this disorder, and my own research.

Analysis and rant under the cut:

=ANALYSIS=

So this all started when I learned that one of the color design pieces had Caleb and the grimwalkers labelled "Golden Guard Illusion". Artists credited in the image itself.

It's weird to me that they're labeled as illusions and not hallucinations, because the latter is what the ghosts actually are. Illusions are images your brain distorts based off something that's there, while hallucinations are images your brain creates from nothing. The fact that these ghosts are actually hallucinations of Belos and not real ghosts doesn't say a whole lot about Belos on its own, because anyone can hallucinate if they experience intense enough negative emotions. But you'll see why I think there's something more to this.

Following this lead, I rewatched the scene where Papa Titan talks to Luz in the In-Between realm in the series finale. After Luz asks him whether her motivation to save her friends and family makes her just as bad as Belos, she tells her:

"Well, you assume Belos' goal comes from a genuine place. But that man doesn't care about anything but his need to be the hero in his own delusion."

Let me give you a short lesson about delusions in the context of schizospec disorders: Delusions are firmly held beliefs that the person experiencing can't be convinced aren't true. This can be extremely serious and life-threatening, such as as believing all your food's been poisoned. But it can also be harmless; it really depends on the delusion. The type of delusion referenced here would be a delusion of grandeur, which is a real thing in schizospec disorders. Such delusions can be serious, like believing you're the second coming of god, or more harmless, like believing you're better than others.

Taking both the hallucinations and the delusion into mind, it's very possible that Belos has some kind of schizospec disorder.

=RANT=

Let's talk about that scene where Belos goes to the grimwalker cave. Notice how the hallucinations are played for laughs? That's problematic. Hallucinations are not something you can just tell to "shut up" and they'll go away. Hallucinations are not things you can interact with. There's already other media with this problem, such as A Beautiful Mind, but the fact that it's in a show that's supposed to be celebrating neurodivergence is hypocritical.

Let's briefly go back to that Papa Titan quote. See how he used the word "delusion" to describe Belos' motivation?Yeah, that's really problematic in the schizospec community. As mentioned before, delusions can be life threatening, so tossing that word around like it's nothing is really frustrating and insulting. The show should have used a word like "fantasy" to get its point across more effectively if it was implying that Belos has a hero complex.

Continuing this train of thought, it gets worse when you consider how Papa Titan- and in essence the narrative- is essentially ridiculing Belos for experiencing a very intense delusion. Delusions are not something a schizospec person can control. I've already seen the fandom mocking Belos for this quality. It was one of those awful memes with the caption "schizophrenia," and had audio of markiplier doing a bit where he was bantering with an "inner voice". Such memes are awful because they're not real experiences schizospec people go through. They're assumptions about our experiences non-schizospec people make about us.

That would be the worst of it, but no, it gets far worse when you consider a few things:

Belos is the main antagonist. That would be annoying enough, considering the plethora of mentally ill villains in media, but nope. The narrative also treats him as this purely evil being who is incapable of any good whatsoever. Which, OK. It's possible for a schizospec person to be a monster. But the fact that the only schizospec representation we have is either of us as helpless victims, or as irredeemable monsters, is infuriating.

Belos is clearly meant to be a foil to Luz. Which, congrats to the show for having a neurodivergent lead, but let me tell you about some of the hardships schizospec people face: In real life, schizospec people are cast out of mental health advocacy groups. Schizospec people are treated as subhuman by doctors and psychiatrists. Schizospec people are demonized and vilified by society. Schizospec people are denied jobs and housing. With all this in mind the fact the narrative chooses to glorify a character with the "right," the "acceptable," kind of neurodivergence while berating a character with the "scary," the "monstrous," kind of neurodivergence is absolutely disgusting.

=CONCLUSION=

I feel like it has to be said that I am not condoning Belos' actions, or trying to woobify him. Belos, as a person, was terrible. No amount of mental illness tacked onto him will excuse any of his actions.

I'm also not trying to imply that schizospec characters can't be evil. I'm just saying that it's extremely tiresome that the only representation we get is either us as victims or as villains.

To conclude all of this, please, do your research before adding something like this into your story.

[gauntletqueen]

the italian boxer isn't a cop, isn't 100% white, and was crying because of her dead dad. she's come out in support of the other boxer people are using her as a weapon against to be racist. the way the olympics and the media is treating both boxers is really fucked up, i do not think the italian woman did anything wrong, she's just a useful tool of oppression people are utilizing against her will

Okay you're part right, part wrong. I've done some more looking into it and I'm glad I did cause it's Nuanced~ Not here to prove you wrong, just gonna list it all out clearly so we can all understand the situation better.

I haven't personally seen any racism coming into the controversy so I don't understand why you're bringing that up, or that Angela Carini isn't fully white. The most I can see is a few mentions of Italian politicians using the situation to try and earn some brownie points by standing behind Angela Carini, but even then they're also latching onto the narrative that Imane Khelif had an unfair advantage, due to her being transgender. She isn't, btw. She's a cis woman,another case of transphobes jumping at any opportunity to try to push their bullshit, even when the target isn't trans, and nobody had even accused them of being trans before that point.

While I can't find definitive proof that Angela herself is a cop, she was raised by cops and is a member of the boxing division of one of Italy's police forces. I can't figure out if that means that she is also an actual cop but that's probably where the assumption comes from.

"she was crying because of her dead dad" is true, but oversimplifying it. Specifically, she's said that her brother and late father were boxers before her, and taught her the sport. She wanted to honor them in the olympics, but the tension, stress and expectations got too much for her in the match against Imane, who it seems fought much harder than Angela was used to. This caused her to have an emotional breakdown. That's all extremely reasonable honestly I can't imagine having to handle to pressure of representing your country At The Olympics, especially not when there are also such big personal stakes. Supposedly she was cited as shouting "it's not fair!" as she left the ring. This is what got transphobes like JK Rowling and Musk to co-opt the story into their bigotted narrative that Imane must be transgender, as transphobic women in the past have blamed their losses on the fact that a transgender woman Was Involved.

It's likely that they might also have used Imane's disqualification from participating in the 2023 IBA Women's World Boxing championship. The organization had declared her testosterone levels to be too high, which supposedly "proved they had XY chromosomes". Since then, the International Olympic Committee has removed the IBA as the organizers of boxing at the olympics due to "continuing irregularity issues in the areas of finance, governance, ethics, refereeing, and judging" So. Perhaps they are a bad judge of chromosomes. Because again, Imane is a cis woman.

Anyway. Angela has stated (translation taken from Wikipedia, the original italian article is behind a paywall) "I want to apologize to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke. I don't have anything against Khelif. If I were to meet her again, I would embrace her"

So yeah, she's done nothing wrong, she just cracked under immense pressure, and might be a cop or cop-sympathetic, but that doesn't seem to really have anything to do with the situation. The important thing is that rightwing bigots jumped at the chance to make her a martyr against her will, as you said.

[ravi-is-my-beloved]

i get where you’re coming from but they’re very much all problematic characters. there’s not a single character on that show that hasn’t done something problematic. like half of them have cheated, bobby (unintentionally) caused the deaths of over 100 people and lied to his employer, chimney has been misogynistic (in s1) and continuously lied to his girlfriend, maddie and athena have both abused their power as first responders. this isn’t me trying to get you to like tommy or anything, that’s your business, just saying that they all have sucked as people at one point or another.

You're right, the main cast of characters have been problematic. I will never say they're not problematic, that would just be a complete lie. And it wasn't my intention to say they're not problematic.

The point isn't just that Tommy is problematic, they didn't give him a proper redemption arc where most fans would acknowledge that he indeed did change. I know that part was in the last few paragraphs of my post, but in another post, I say that I would've at least tolerated Tommy if they had given him a better redemption arc.

But they didn't. And that's probably because he was a recurring character, since all of the main characters you mentioned have grown and we've seen that growth.

The main characters have never had their problematic actions brushed underneath the rug because they uttered half-hearted apologies.

Chimney had been seen being talked into telling his girlfriend in season one about his lies. Hen, Buck, and Eddie have had valid pushback for cheating. Maddie and Athena have had pushback for abusing her power as first responders. Nobody ever lets Bobby forget that he unintentionally killed over 100 people.

The writers have narratively barely talked about Tommy's problematic actions and again, that's probably because he's a recurring character, but that's part of the reason people don't believe he's changed.

This is again why I keep talking about Tommy's problematic actions, because the writers haven't given him the proper change needed for most of the fans who hate him to think he's changed. They've had multiple times to make him seem genuinely remorseful for his actions and they've never taken that opportunity.

And there are people in this fandom who don't understand that this is why some (I say some because I know there's different reasons others don't like Tommy) don't like him and don't like the fact that the writers brought him back. But some of the fans who do like Tommy keep trying to act like all of us who don't like him are homophobic. (And some haters are homophobic, won't deny that.)

That's all I have to say, because I'm tired of repeating the same thing over and over again.

[about-faces]

I'm still loving Gotham Nocturne and I wish it was getting the love/respect/attention is deserves. I've spoken several people who haven't been reading the current Detective Comics run because they're Batmanned Out (good lord, do I get it) and they see it as just another attempt at some kind of "ultimate Batman story with Batman fighting the ultimate evil," which I strongly disagree with.

THAT SAID... as time has gone on, and the story seems to be reaching its finale, there are a few things that stand out of me as problems with this epic storyline.

1.) It's one of the most egregious examples of "writing for the trade paperback." This simply isn't a story that's meant to be read month-to-month. It's too slow, with too little "happening," at least on the superficial level. Paradoxically, it's NOT a story that should be binged! The best comparison that comes to mind is Better Call Saul, since that's the only other example of serialized media that's meticulously slow-paced yet INCREDIBLY RICH for those willing to engage with it on its level rather than expecting it to be Breaking Bad (or in Nocturne's case, a typical Batman story.) Ram V is capable of writing super-engaging monthly issues, as the fantastic Rare Flavours proves, but that brings us to...

2.) The story is sprawling. Maybe even TOO sprawling. When it comes to people who are sick of Batman, I try to sell them on the fact that this story is about GOTHAM AS A WHOLE, right down to the villains who call it home, and how everyone there is as intrinsically a part of Gotham as Batman is. But ensemble stories like that are tricky, and it makes the focus feel all over the place at times, with alternately too much and too little attention being paid to the main players, Batman included. It's a balance that was handled beautifully with Batman: The Audio Adventures, but it seems a bit more awkward here. Again, it's hard to pull off!

Like, we have characters pop up and then vanishing without explanation. We got Azrael back in the AzBats armor for the first time in decades, like, holy shit! That should be a HUGE development! And then, poof, he vanished! There's simply no time to explore Jean-Paul's character because there's so many other things the narrative needs to explore.

This feels like it would have really benefited from a companion series, something to focus on the characters the way the backup stories have done, but just more so. I think about how Peter Tomasi would write companion books to the main big storylines written by Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, and Scott Snyder, and how he'd focus on character, which always enriched the greater "big important storyline." Which, in turn, also brings me to...

3.) The backup stories have really lost a lot of their punch since they stopped being written by Si Spurrier and were taken over by Dan Watters. Watters is incredibly capable, make no mistake, and his Cheshire/Lian Harper story is one of my favorite parts of this entire saga. But by and large, his tales focus more on the spooky and weird sides of what's happening with Nocturne, whereas Spurrier's stories were more focused on characters navigating the weirdness of the events. As a result, Spurrier gave us what I consider to be some of the very best stories about Jim Gordon, Harvey Dent, and Victor Fries ever written. I really miss those, and how they enriched Ram V's (possibly overly-ambitious) narrative.

Ultimately, Gotham Nocturne feels like the Batman equivalent to an arthouse film, which means it's going to be appreciated by a handful of nerds while leaving most other fans cold, and I can't really blame them. If anything makes me sad about all this, it's how all this incredible character work with Bruce, Harvey, Victor, Talia, and others is going to be ignored. Hell, it already is, given the complete lack of acknowledgement we've seen in other Bat-books for what's going on in Nocturne.

At this point, I just hope it sticks the landing in the finale, because I want to be able to have a complete, satisfying epic to recommend to people who want something a bit richer than the typical "guy in Bat costume punches clown" stories we usually get.

[magicwhiskers29]

This is. Something of a nonsense post, I think, but I wanted to ramble about who MK classifies as his "many, many dads" in s5e3's gag about the snakes. (I haven't seen further than this ep yet, so please no spoilers!)

Like, obviously there's Pigsy. We've known MK definitely sees him as a father since s2e1, where he calls him Dadsy. This is only affirmed again and again by later seasons, with stuff like s4 explicitly saying Pigsy raised him, and Pigsy calling him son (whilst he's asleep, so MK doesn't hear, but still) in s5e1. No one is arguing at this point that Pigsy counts.

Then... Well, I feel like the next obvious choice is Wukong, and that is already a lot more... Complicated. Obviously a lot of people (myself included) do see Wukong as something of a father figure for MK. He mentors (that should probably be in quotation marks because of how not good at it he is, but ah well) MK to help with his new powers (nominally) that his other family, like Pigsy, just can't really, because Wukong's the only one with similar abilities. He looks out for MK and often tries to shield him from even knowing that there is a greater danger -- his role in the story is that of a mentor, but when you break it down, it can sound fatherly.

But does MK see it this way? It's explicitly prompted in s4, when Mei and MK talk about the prospect of Wukong being his biological father. MK denies it outright, but only on the grounds that Wukong would have told him, if it were true. It's his trust in Wukong that makes him not believe it, not the fact that he personally thinks it wouldn't make sense, or that he doesn't see Wukong that way.

As a counter point, I've seen some people say the s5 scene where he acknowledges that they're all Wukong's friends (after they rebuild his house) is confirmation that MK sees him as a friend, or potential equal -- that they're buds, not father and son. And like, they are buds! They are friends! But I don't think the narrative wants us to view them as equals, or that close to that, because they are explicitly still mentor and student. Wukong is still the one giving MK advice through the next few episodes. MK loses the fight against Wukong at the beginning of s5e1 to show that, whilst they both hold back, Wulong still beats him, even if only just.

Wukong even calls him kid, just like Pigsy does! And I know that's part of his branding, but... It's not his name. Mei doesn't call him that, and she's his best friend. There are supposed to be parallels drawn between Pigsy and Wukong's behaviour, in regards to MK.

So especially with the season 4 conversation about Wukong as MK's dad still up in the air and not fully answered, on account of Wukong not having the answers, it seems, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume MK is including Wukong in his "many, many dads". He's also saying the line to Wukong, so...

And then... Tang? For one, Tang and Pigsy often act like they're married, with the way Tang hangs around the noodle shop (below literally where Pigsy and MK live) and has been, as such, telling MK stories since he was a child, being particularly relevant here, I think. Like, whether or not you think Pigsy and Tang are romantically involved, or just long-time friends, Tang has also been there for MK for a while.

MK does call him "Mr Tang" for a while, which isn't overly familiar, but... What else would he call him? The show isn't literally telling us that Pigsy and Tang are married, or anything close to such, so MK doesn't know him as well as Pigsy. It's polite. And MK tends to call most people by a title in the early seasons -- "Mr Tang", "Monkey King", most villains with a title... He usually calls people directly by the name for two reasons: he's very close and familiar with them (Like Pigsy or Mei), or he's belittling them because he's not at all close with them (Red Son in s1, or Macaque in s2, plus other villains that he uses no title for). He also tends to be more respectful towards people he looks up to or is intimidated by, so... DBK, who is just terrifying, in s3, Tang ,who taught him about JttW, in early seasons, and Wukong, who is his hero.

That's a lot of ramblings to say that I think including Tang isn't a stretch. This is a joke line, so I think we can assume MK is being loose with his classifications.

Is three "many, many"? I wouldn't exactly say so, but our other candidates are er.... Sandy? Macaque? To address both of those...

MK only meets Sandy in the pilot, and seems to view him as first a family, and then a personal, friend. The narrative frames Sandy as that kind of guy that gets called "Uncle or Aunt whatever" because they're a friend of your parents, in my opinion. He's an adult authority figure who looks out for MK, so if that's the definition then... Sure? Maybe MK is being extremely loose with who he counts, and since we've already seen the line between friend and family for him be extremely blurred, we could say for sake of argument that Sandy is one of his "many, many dads".

But Macaque? Oof, that's more complicated. If we just say that all of MK's male mentors are his father figures, then sure, go nuts. Macaque is one of his "many, many dads", but... The extent to which MK actually sees him as a legitimate mentor, and most certainly a father, could definitely be called into question.

In season 1, he does until the Macaque attacks Wukong. Then he sees himself as having been tricked, and the lesson he learns is related to Wukong. In other words, he largely discounts Macaque's work.

In season 2, he explicitly only calls Macaque his teacher to demean him. (Macaque: "A good kid with a really terrible teacher." MK: "I thought you were my teacher?") He is definitely bitter over the events of Macaque's two episodes up to this point, and make sure Macaque knows that. Macaque probably does legitimately see MK as his student of sorts, but son? Hm...

In season 3, Macaque spends most of it working for the main villain. So, uh. Not much father-son bonding happening there. He fights MK multiple times, and only teams up with him once he can get away with it. Macaque presents himself as very distant whilst they're all planning in the s3 specials, and his snarky mask is up in full force, but I do think he does really bond with MK in the final battle. Here, him calling MK kid or kiddo feels more along the lines the genuine affection that Wukong and Pigsy use it for, rather than demeaning.

In s4, he goes out of his way to help MK in one of his darkest moments, and even confronts parts of his past with Wukong for MK. He also once again participates in the final battle. (To help them.) By this point, it's undeniable that Macaque really does care about MK, and if you wanted to read that as him seeing MK as some kind of son, then I would say power to you. I don't know if that's really how I see it, but there is something there.

The issue? It's not "does Macaque see MK as a son?", it's "does MK see Macaque as a father?". My opinion is that MK sees Macaque as, at best some kind of shady uncle, but I don't want to understate the fact that the two of them do still grow closer. Maybe for the sake of the joke, MK includes Macaque, because his behaviour's been similar to Wukong's recently. (Though it is worth noting that MK doesn't see stuff like the Macaque-Wukong conversation in s5e1) I think I'll just have to leave this one more open ended.

And now I've spent way too long analysing what is almost certainly just a gag line directs as a bit of a wink and a nudge at the audience. Oh well.

[stupendousfoxthing]

I want to share a post making the rounds that made a lot of great points, but op dismisses the idea of any romantic relationships existing between any two members of the group in the replies. I will never be down with the "no ships are real" crowd because I can't think of a single valid (non-homophobic) reason to think a romance between two men is impossible. A romantic relationship between two people who met when they were young, worked and lived together for the better part of a decade, and enjoyed each other's company so much that when given the opportunity to build lives separate from that work STILL chose each other makes more sense than a lot of other things people will accept as perfectly reasonable (if it's a man and a woman of course). But the homophobia is just one layer to their dismissal, and the post hit on several others. There are so many layers to the shitty way this fandom treats Taekook and Taekookers. The video I shared earlier from an anon tells it like it is. Taekookers are not delusional to believe it's possible there is something there. No matter what antis would like you to believe, they are not literally brothers. Saying they are brothers is literally delusional (believing something is true when there is evidence to the contrary). There is a pattern of suspicious behavior going back years and only intensifying during solo era. I've talked about this before, but during the frenzy over the Dream premiere last year I saw something I thought was funny. I saw two people on Twitter talking about it, talking about Taekook fondly, and saying they felt like it had been a million years since they had seen them together. I realized then that they had no idea about all of the things that had happened with Taekook in the months prior to that. I started to wonder if we get called delusional just because people really do only pay attention to what is laid out in front of them, mostly in official content. Like...yeah, we probably do look delusional if you don't know about 95% of the things that have happened. This would tie back into how the fandom sees Tae as well, and why he is treated like an outsider. If you've been in the fandom for a while, you know how people who go against the company narrative in any way are treated. Tae does go against that narrative. He has talked about the more negative aspects of their position openly more than any other member. Why was he allowed to hint that things aren't all rosy between him and the company in the recent documentary? Look at how the fandom treats those who go against the company, and you will know. Taekook as a ship has a unique ability to create a perfect storm of animosity in this particular fandom that literally has training materials and guidelines written up for "baby ARMY". Layers. Homophobia. Company loyalty over everything. The spoon-fed narratives. The "outsider" and the "privileged" one dating? But they're awkward brothers... Taekookers get treated like monsters, no other group even comes close and it isn't because we're "shippers". I see evidence of that everyday. Other ships/shippers within the group have a free pass to do whatever they want. The fandom loves Namkook, for instance. You can openly romanticize/sexualize them and the fandom eats it up. Tons of people showed their ass with Tae/IU as well. It's not shipping that bothers them. It's Taekook. Taekook challenges what they've been led to believe. Taekookers shine a light on it and celebrate it. That's what pisses people off, and I do believe that when they actually look at Taekook they see it too. We bring something that makes them uncomfortable to their attention, something they'd rather not see or acknowledge. When a Taekook "moment" happens and we haven't even said anything yet but people are already bitching about the fact they can't enjoy it because they know Taekookers will be happy and celebrating? It's not us. It's Taekook as a pair that bothers them.

[gayofthefae]

Mike and El aren't "100% secure never gonna break up" because I'm only pretty sure that Nancy and Jonathan are gonna stay together and in season 4, I was only pretty sure Lucas and Max would get back together but I acknowledged a possibility that they would remain just friends but very close and still be the main pairing for each other onscreen. Nothing is certain. Because you haven't seen the ending. And with that Lucas and Max example, I was unsure of Lucas and Max and MIKE was the one that couldn't tell El he loved her. I was unsure of even the one couple that didn't have any (relationship) threat. No one is 100% safe because we don't know what's gonna happen. The only couple I was sure of in season 4 was Joyce and Hopper because they had very clear and consistent romantic buildup and references and hadn't been together yet. My closest comparison to that is Byler.

Honestly, I'm also realizing as I type this that the main lack of knowing stemmed from me knowing that plots have to invoke change and an established couple breaking up is a change, and being a change trumps being illogical. Joyce and Hopper or Mike and Will not getting together would be a complete lack of change.

Joyce and Hopper changed to dating. Jonathan and Nancy are shifting into their future and away from Hawkins. Lucas and Max changed into maturity that they didn't have before. Mike and El didn't change before, in fact, they reused(/extended with a tone shift to more seriousness) a PREVIOUS CONFLICT. Mike and Will haven't changed and won't if they do anything but get together that ends on good platonic terms.

Couples have to change. Getting together is a change. Breaking up is a change. Maturing is a changer. Elmike was already treated pretty seriously and that's used as reason for them to not break up but it's actually the opposite because they have nowhere to go but to break up now, as it is a story and further events are required to get to an end point. Byler were already on good platonic terms and and learning something that doesn't change anything is inherently NOT a change.

Realizing, even Will coming out to Jonathan was important because it was a CHANGE! They had been distant for a while and that was included in order to set up that moment as something that had needed to happen, a vulnerable conversation they hadn't had in a while.

Honestly the only established couple I'm 100% sure of is Dustin and Suzie because they have no plots and therefore no reason for change. Sidelined couples are endgame couples. Shoutout Mr. and Mrs. Finch on Bridgerton you're the cutest thing I've ever seen I'm so happy you both love cheese.

Jopp3r and J@ncy have available changes while staying together in committing further as they are adults or becoming adults who are capable of independent decisions like going to college together, moving in together, marriage, etc. All child couples, aka everyone else, do not have that change as an option (although some people have tried reaching for it under the idea of a larger time jump, even legality does not equal narrative plausibility) so their only possibilities are to commit to fight to reunite: Lum@x(just realized! parallel to when Elmike was romantic!), or break up (M!leven). Other options for any two people not together or engaged with another in-relationship change include as follows: getting together. That's it.

All couples but Mike and El have other options of change to build up to achieving other than breaking up. If they didn't, breaking up would be their only option, but they have alternates. For Mike and El, that is not the case. Lucas and Max are only even safe because she's in a coma, or if they decide to extend their get-back-together arc. The kids' only options are have an existing possible change or breakup. Lucas and Max have an existing possible change.

[ellynightray]

Okay. So.

Since we're heading into the finale I decided to just put it out there. I haven't exactly been that much into the whole CX-2 discussion and I honestly don't know if they're going to address that or not but since everyone has been making predictions and we have so many theories... I really wish (if he's addressed at all in the finale) that CX-2 turns out to be Cody.

It simply just makes sense from a narrative standpoint and I had a whole discussion about it with my bestie and it just would make sense and bring just the right amount of drama and angst to the finale of The Bad Batch + it could be an amazing plot point of a future clone series if they decide to go with that.

Cody is not only a person known by the members of the bad batch but he also has a connection to Rampart (who's with them on Tantiss for the finale. I just can't imagine him being there for no reason, that would just be so random??) and Rex (if he somehow appears in the finale). There's a storyline there, spanning from the previous season with Crosshair asking about Cody and Rampart telling him that Cody's gone awol, there's Echo who would probably be deeply hurt and confused if it was Cody who was on the other side, actively targeting them and there's even the fact that Cody is pretty freaking tough to beat and so is CX-2 from what we've seen. If Rex somehow gets to Tantiss, then there's of course that as well, but even if he doesn't there's enough reasons. Cody knows them personally and they know him, some of them have a history with him (Crosshair, Echo) and I just can't get it out of my head that Rampart is there and he was the last one to know sth or say sth about Cody, like I'm sorry but it would simply make sense. Plus knowing what CX-2 did on Teth, it just adds more pain to this.

And him being CX-2 doesn't take away from any of the future projects because this here, now, this is the beginning of the fight with the empire. If they can save him (in a future series focused on Rex, Gregor, Wolffe and co. for example) then that leaves the door open for any of our aus and for the producers to do whatever they want with him in future projects (including the scrapped tatooine husbands). Him being CX-2 not only doesn't take away from anything but it also adds some beautiful drama, angst, pain, suffering, whatever you want to call it and it could make the reveal so much more interesting and compelling!!

Of course I know people want it to be Tech but... As much as I miss him and love him and I would want nothing more but for him to be there with them, I don't want him to be CX-2. It would be, for the lack of a better word, too obvious and too boring. Plus I don't want that for him. I also think it's just too late for him to be revealed as CX-2, that kind of thing should have been done earlier, not in the finale, especially when we have so many other loose ends we need to tie in. I just think, as much as I hate it, that his death was meaningful and brining him back to life would take away from the finale of the 2nd season and from the journey the others are on, ever since his sacrifice.

So yeah. Whatever happens in the finale, I enjoyed the ride and our little game of 'guess who' with CX-2~~

—————————————————————

Edit:

Well shit.

[mileven11forever]

I'm not a Byler shipper, as in I don't really care wether it happens or not, I mostly lurk in the tags to get news on the show's filming progression, but I do think Byler happening is a very real possibility. Why? Mainly for the simple reason mileven fans love to ignore: Will IS in love with Mike. That is a decision the writers in the show made consciously and deliverately. Will being gay is just a part of his story, him being in love with Mike is another part of it, but a very important one. If Will's story were only about him being accepted for being gay by his family and friends, then him being in love with Mike serves no purpose, and it would also fall flat as a resolution to his story, because we already know his family and friends are going to accept him no matter what. There'd be no surprise there. But if the case is that he's supposed to experience unrequited love, then they already showed us that for two seasons (3 and 4) and the writers dragging out this storyline toward season 5 makes no sense (the lie about the painting, as well as Will's feelings for Mike are yet to be revealed). If the resolution of this story were Will just being rejected by Mike, then again it falls flat, because Will already has no hope of Mike ever returning his feelings, so he doesn't need to be rejected. He already thinks his feelings aren't requited. So, if that's indeed the route the writers wanted to take, then they should've had Will confess his feelings for Mike at the end of season 3 and then have him get over Mike by having him meeting someone new in California during S4, they had the perfect oportunity to pull that off in a believable way, but they didn't use it. They literally reinforced the narrative that Will is deeply and hopelessly in love with Mike and he's not getting over him anytime soon. And also, I've seen Bylers point this out and it's the fact, FACT, that the Duffers themselves said they don't believe in the "Love at first sight" trope, and coincidentially, they chose that very same trope to describe the beginig of Mike and Eleven's love story. That alone should at least be a reason for Mileven fans to at least open up about the very real posibility that they won't stay together. And I'm not even getting into the very evident way in which the scenes show us (most times in tv shows you have to look at what the events in the scenes are showing you rather than what the characters are telling you) how Mike finds in Will someone who he has a lot in common with and who he shares many interests with, someone he can talk to about anything, someone who he can be vulnerable with and who knows him well and loves him for who he is, all things that the scenes in the show haven't really showed us Mike sharing with Eleven.

Now, could the writers just ignore all those seeds they've planted in the narrative and just stick with Mileven instead? Of course. But calling Byler fans delusional because they see one of the very possible outcomes the narrative can take is just being in denial.

Dang, alright. :/ You make some fair points.