#im actually going to write this in the main post

[bibliophilea]

#i will preface with this issue has gotten better in the last year (used to be 80% of the main tag and now it's under 50% which I appreciate) #so thank you to everyone who's aware and have been responsive in keeping things contained off the main dp tag #but on the situation here are my thoughts: #i'd argue most ppl in the dpxdc fandom have never seen any actual danny phantom episodes #we joke in the dp phandom like 'fuck canon it's a dollhouse we do what we want' #but that's just a joke #even if it's not perfect the dp characters still have personalities stories and goals in the OG show #so i see things posted and im like ???? this is not these characters at all ???? #they share names and descriptions sure but they don't share anything else #i've also seen people in dpxdc on reddit and stuff saying things like they 'revived the dp phandom' and other disrespectful things #we were always here #we're a small phandom sure but we're very active with events every year #u did not 'revive' us #i have to say this every time but im NOT anti-crossover #i write crossovers myself #i've been interacting with OG dpxdc since way before it was a trend and it's what brought me into the dp phandom in the first place #and i know im far from alone in that #i love new people i always think it's wonderful #but just like know that dpxdc is NOT dp #and that's why people in dp get annoyed #well that and all these characters and this world that is very much a giant massive different fandom #so please leave the dpxdc off the main tumblr tag #we're too small and y'all overpower us here #i've made the mistake of accidentally flooding a small fandom before - we're all human and we all make mistakes #but i just quietly retagged my content and then didn't use their main tag moving forward #easy as pie (tags from @lexosaurus)

All of this. Like, DP does play fast and loose with canon, but it's still playing with canon. There's a basis that we all share that makes the characters recognizable, even when we throw them in AUs that explore how those characters would change due to the AU.

DPxDC of recent years, for the most part, does not share that basis. It takes the names and faces of characters in DP and characters in DC, and it builds its own fanon basis to fit the stories it wants to tell.

And there's nothing wrong with that! Fandom is a sandbox! Go play!

But don't go saying that you "revived" the Phandom sandbox just because DPxDC got popular. Danny Phantom on FanFiction.Net has been top 5 in the cartoons category since the early 2000's. It's only recently dropped to number 6. Phandom has a long history of events celebrating both canon and fanon. Heck, #dannypocalypse has gotten Danny Phantom trending every year on tumblr since its inception, to the point that Box Lunch has a Danno face enamel pin you can go out and buy. Claiming that DPxDC "revived" Phandom is disingenuous to Phandom history, and insulting to the pholks who have been here, building community and interacting with Phandom the whole time.

Phandom has always been in this sandbox, playing with our blorbos, building worlds that fill out our common basis in different ways. It kind of feels like we're getting steamrolled every time DPxDC folks suggest filtering the tags (a lot of us do) and blocking folks (a lot of us do) to not see DPxDC (we see it anyways because a lot of DPxDC folks still tag the main fandoms and don't tag the crossover). Folks who want to see DP and DC separately from DPxDC (which looks almost nothing like DP and almost nothing like DC for the most part) get hit the worst. They're forced to pick one fandom to block entirely - DP or DC - because of the lack of consistent tagging. It's really unfair.

A number of my good friends whom I met through Phandom have been driven out of Phandom because of DPxDC fandom behavior tied to the assumption that DPxDC has a common basis with Phandom (it doesn't, for the most part - mainly just common character names and appearances), the assumption that DPxDC "revived" Phandom (Phandom has been small but strong since before I stepped foot in Phandom), and the assumption from there that most of Phandom media is going to look like DPxDC media but without Batman or Constantine or Superman (a lot of it is very different from DPxDC character-wise and lore-wise and worldbuilding-wise). It's kind of disheartening, and it's antithetical to the idea of a "revival" of Phandom caused by DPxDC.

I guess, main thing I want to say is that DPxDC is its own sandbox doing its own thing. And that's wonderful! Have fun! Even I enjoy dabbling there sometimes! But Phandom and DC fandom are also their own sandboxes doing their own things. And sometimes - due to a lack of consistent tagging, but also due to assumptions made that are largely untrue - it feels like a number of DPxDC folks act like Phandom and DC fandom and DPxDC fandom are one and the same, when they're really not.

Again, there's nothing wrong with DPxDC having fun with fandom! But Phandom and DC fandom want to have fun, too! And it's a lot harder when the onus is placed on us to block tags and block people until our tag is clear of your fandom (which it never is). And even then, it gets complicated when a lot of Phandom folks would be fine interacting with DPxDC as its own thing, outside of the Danny Phantom tag; and it gets even more complicated when folks are in Phandom, and in DC fandom, and don't necessarily want everything about those fandoms to be overshadowed by a crossover that has taken on a life of its own.

finding out danny phantom fans are sick of dc/batman crossovers clogging THEIR tags is frying me idk why I never considered that. we are in the same damn boat omg

[sleepyvib-es]

do you have like a turning point beyond which rick's writing became unsalvageable to you? and if you do, what do you think should have happened instead of what happened canonically

hii! <3 this is such a good question omg, ty for sending it!

i had to really sit and think about this one. i don't think that i could really pinpoint one moment where i felt like "yeah this is it im done" because to me, there are a lot of those throughout the riordanverse lmao

but if i really had to pick one? at the risk of sounding basic, i would say blood of olympus. rick's treatment of his main characters and how he handled their arcs all throughout hoo but especially in boo just didn't work for me. i also strongly dislike how some established themes in pjo and the final conclusion to the og series feel so insignificant now.

before i go further though i will say that there are some things i enjoyed in boo, mainly having to do with nico's and reyna's povs. i don't like that 4 out of the 7 main cast were sidelined in the last book of the series (i think rick's excuse for sidelining annabeth and percy was total bs but i'm equally as angry that frank and hazel both received supporting cast member treatment) but i did enjoy their povs and think that rick's writing was strongest writing these two (until the last few pages of nico's chapter).

i genuinely despise how the narrative started blaming percy for things that were out of his control and how rick turned him into a fumbling incompetent idiot, something that has only gotten worse in his newer books (the way he wrote him in tsast, cotg, and wottg has been discussed in great lengths so i won't dive into it here but i'll link some posts if you're curious).

gonna apologize now for my long rant:

i didn't like the final speech he gave to the greek demigods before fighting, especially when you compare it to the speech he gave in TLO. like the difference between the two is just so... disrespectful lmao that is not my percy. and this was supposed to be the last we saw of percy bc rick said he was done writing for this universe when the book came out. like.. no. this is one of those moments that just shows how heavily he started to lean on the fanon interpretation of percy. a literal decade has passed and the fandom is still struggling with this interpretation of his character. i hate it.

i didn't like the "not my type" joke like imo you had to have written both nico and percy in an ooc way just to land that joke. the way rick wrapped up these two and their ~complicated~ relationship (that is only complicated because rick retconned nico's character and redid his arc from pjo, which would explain some inconsistencies like why he was looking to bring bianca back by using the doors of death when he had a mini arc of acceptance that bianca must stay where she is. which, yk, was the whole emotional conclusion to daedalus and his arc. nico will always grieve his dead sister ofc but he had said goodbye to her in pjo already.) it's one of my least favorite things about hoo.

and listen, out of all the things that i could choose to rewrite, this one scene isn't actually on the top of my list considering all of rick's writing offenses. but i just wish that relationship between both these characters and the conclusion to their arcs had been resolved in a much more meaningful way.

Edit: i think this is an excellent breakdown and analysis of one of my least favorite things regarding nico's writing in hoo. op offers suggestions on how the writing could have been improved and i wholeheartedly agree with everything. it's worth the read!

i think he had a lot of interesting concepts and he introduced a lovely cast of new characters that i love to this day but failed to execute his ideas in a way that would have made better sense narratively. there is a lot i wish had been done differently.

also, im aware that it's not only percy's characterization that has suffered. i'm very critical of the way he's been writing annabeth's character as the girlbossified, hyper-competent mom friend. the flanderization of both percy and annabeth's characters is just Not It for me. but there's also:

the way he fumbled leo's arc in hoo (leo's journey of self love and acceptance is something that can be so personal. i forever mourn the potential that could have been leo realizing that he fucking mattered to his friends. platonic friendships matter.)

sidelining hazel and frank (his mars transformation as part of his character development? terrible, awful implications)

questions left unanswered about frank and hazel's characters and their curse and how that was answered in toa, a series where they were not the main characters.

jason. where do i even begin with jason. i liked his arc in hoo and i like the tragedy of jason's character but i'm not a fan of how he was killed outside of his own series. this was poor writing to me.

i also really wish rick had committed to writing a seperate roman series before writing hoo so that new rome/camp jupiter and its cast were properly fleshed out. perhaps the quality of his writing in hoo would have been better if he had already established jason and reyna as characters instead of starting from scratch with 5 new main characters + reyna + octavian (wouldn't have been such a letdown of a villain)

the way he wrote nico and will in tsats. and also all the inconsistencies, the typos, the retcons, the way the plot literally doesn't make sense (why couldn't hades just let bob out? why is making his son relieve his experience in superhell with his bf seen as such a great parenting moment?). it made tartarus seem like Not A Big Deal. the cocomelons.

i love piper but god is it hard to ignore rick's unhidden biases about the way he feels about women. i also think she deserved better. i love that she has a girlfriend but i wish shel was a fleshed out character. and again i just wish we had all this from piper's pov.

the way he handled reyna's character after hoo. other people have discussed this in a much better way that i can on this post but his aroace rep and lesbophobia is very disappointing.

the way he retconned and handled calypso's character. i have never shipped caleo so i dont care if they break up. if it was up to me leo would have been single and gay never been on that island and they would have never gotten together. however, the way he wrote them in toa does not make me feel better about either of their character arcs. there are so many interesting things he could have done with calypso's character post pjo (where she was actually meaningful to the plot and themes of the series) and he took the "snarky love interest" route. it's boring. i also know she's not anyone's favorite but rick has done a huge disservice to her character that's kinda ... not really discussed b/c of how much people dislike her.

the cupid scene

i think that he attempted to rectify a lot of these issues in toa. but even where i find positive things to say about toa, there are still some things that i'm just not really happy about. this isn't me criticising the series, feel free to enjoy it if you do! i have moots that love it. the few complaints i have boil down to rick choosing to resolve character arcs outside of the series where they were the main characters. it just makes the writing in hoo look even worse.

back to why boo was the turning point for me: i remember being so angry that i couldn't bring myself to read the book much less finish it. i'm someone who doesn't like to drop things halfway once i've started (including shows and movies. like i literally force myself to finish a series even when i feel the writing quality has gone down. i have watched every ep of grey's anatomy up to it's current season and yes i know what that says about me lmao.)

sometimes i like media that is mid or trashy and im okay with that! but when it's to the point where i don't even want to finish it? that's how you know you lost me.

[apple-os]

i am not posting this on my artblog sorry

i amso soeeby these were drawn from memorie

alt text has translations of my terrible writing [i am on phone] plus an awful and disorganised description of what's going on [screen reader users im sorry i have zero clue how to format this]

also...ragatha is dead i apologise i think i killed her a bit

[sidethatyoudontknow]

In the middle of all this 457 chaos there's me that lowkey ships junho and the salesman/ the recruiter/ddakji guy or whatever you're calling him

I mean have you look at them, imagine the banter we could've got

Like there's junho, a detective who's been trying to find his brother only to be led up to a brutal kids game competition in some sketchy island and also finds out the person who controls the said game is his very own brother that he's been searching for a long time that is also a previous winner in the game

And then there's the salesman (some people call him ddakji or dak ho) who's been trained to kill, to see people that played the games is lower than him like a trash since he was a teenager probably, who doesn't even know the purpose of life anymore, a literal mess, a maniac. That's also probably the one that recruit junho's brother into playing the games(a theory not sure if that would makes sense)

Just imagine that, I could write a few headcanons if anyone interested

And yes yes I know they didn't even interacted once for SHIT(and the only time they ever see one another was when one of them already died and the one died never also see him or does he?)

[cmentarek]

A collage I made for one of the characters from my newest story. His name is Kundel by the way hes an absolute manfail and a menace

[emero0]

In relation to my “how dare project sekai have shows within a game that i wish were real” post i have decided to do the same thing lmaoo

And by that i mean ive had this cinematic universe in my head for a fic i need to write and part if it involves leo/need writing songs for the musical movie (think like how mary poppins has songs in it—old disney movies to reference something more popular)

Which has led me to wanting to write a song for the movie in my fic—

This is what my multifaceted brain gets me—multi media projects woooo

[caligvlasaqvarivm]

To elaborate more on the Pesterquest stuff -

Alternia is a hell world. It's shitty to live in, even if you're a highblood, unless you fit a very specific mold of person AND are lucky enough to be born of a high caste. Every troll character we care about is, in some way, fucked over by their relationship to their society; Eridan and Vriska get it the worst, having been forced to participate in the murdering side of things since they were young, but every lowblood is screwed and every highblood is made worse even just by their passive participation. Kanaya becomes less sympathetic because she seems completely at peace with the society she grew up in, and Feferi wants to enforce casteism, even if it's of a different flavor. Gamzee and Equius both hold genuinely casteist beliefs and attitudes, which slip out and alienate them from the people they care about.

Putting a friendship simulator into the middle of all this is... a choice, I guess. I'm not going to begrudge anyone for wanting that or liking that, but it's going to be inherently at odds with what Alternia is and is meant to represent, and thus, fundamentally at odds with many of the characters' arcs and even basic personality traits, so heavily are they influenced by the shit society they grew up in.

For a non-Eridan example, Karkat loathes himself in massive part because his society loathes him. He's kill-on-sight and lives in daily terror of death. He wears a symbol at all because not having one marks him as even more of a freak, even though he knows that that symbol is connected to the empire's biggest rebel, whose footsteps he is expected to follow. The reason he's so obsessed with being leader-y and earning his teammates' reapect, or the respect of anybody, is because he's so deeply insecure about whether or not he even deserves to exist.

If you soften Alternia to the point you can write a lighthearted friendship simulator in it, then that characterization... goes away. Karkat is no longer motivated by deep, overwhelming insecurities, which drive him to idolize the society that deems him unworthy, mistakenly believing that if he can find validation in that society, he'll feel less bad about himself. Instead, Karkat is just kind of an asshole!

It's the same way with Eridan. He and Karkat are equal and opposite in this way - while Karkat is marked for death by his society, Eridan belongs to the extremely privileged caste of sea dweller royalty - even moreso than Feferi, as Feferi is slated to be murdered by the Condesce as soon as she comes of age (and her ridiculous optimism is likely something she cultivated in outright defiance of this fate). But it turns out that being a sea dweller sucks shit, too, if you aren't the extremely niche type of person that society deems "correct."

Eridan is not actually casteist and genuinely likes his land dweller friends - and this is unacceptible. Not only that, but smaller "unacceptible" offenses are wrapped up in big ones - despite not liking murder and feeling guilty about it, murder is objectively the correct thing for Eridan to be doing, constantly, to the point of it being "all [he's] ever done practically," because if he doesn't fulfil the duty of his bloodline to be murdering lusii (and by extension, their charges, who are culled when their lusii die), EVERYBODY dies. The constant push-pull of trauma, societal expectations and obligations, the fate of the species, and the fact that he is inherently not the "right" kind of person for his society, are pretty much his entire character. He's basically a walking ball of anxiety and emotional turmoil.

So, again, if you soften Alternia to the point where you can write a story about Eridan wanting to see Shrek in a public theater (something he would not actually be able to peacefully do in canon Alternia - at least not without taking off his cape, hiding his fins, and going anonblood - as sea dwellers are considered ridiculously hostile to the point even Gamzee's nervous about being on the beach for too long), Eridan ends up being just kind of an asshole!

Pesterquest!Eridan is, and I cannot stress this enough, fundamentally not the same guy as canon Eridan. They have practically nothing in common, from the fact that PQ!Eridan is willing to do something for leisure, to the fact that he isn't widely feared and the movie theater doesn't empty out in a panic when he turns up, even down to the fact that he likes femme fashion (canon Eridan goes to Lengths to lean into masc fashion) and Shrek (canon Eridan is a hipster). Hell, even the fact that PQ!Eridan SMILES is a massive deviation from canon!Eridan, who has never once been depicted smiling, and probably hasn't for many sweeps.

Also that he has that much beef with Sollux when, canonically, the two had a lukewarm mutual dislike and didn't even bother interacting until Feferi was added to the mix and Eridan became mad that Sollux was dating her. He wasn't even casteist about him until then, and after, even Sollux and Feferi don't think he's casteist, they just think he's ashenflirting so he can get into a quad with Feferi. Like come on, if you're going to feature another troll in Eridan's route, 1) make it be Karkat, and 2) have Eridan cheat on you the whole time with Karkat like he does to Feferi.

Eridan is just overall a wild choice in a friendship sim - I can't even blame them for just writing an OC and putting an Eridan skin on top - because societally, Eridan isn't even supposed to have non-sea dweller friends. The sea dweller/land dweller race war is something the Condesce deliberately put into place in order to keep land dwelling nobility in line, and Equius cites it as one of the reasons he never got along with Eridan. Like, the very fact that Eridan talks to two land dwellers on friendly terms (Kanaya and Karkat) is a MASSIVE deviation from what he's "supposed" to be like, and a huge hint that he's not as casteist as he'd like to appear. You are genuinely hundreds, if not thousands, of times likelier to end an encounter with Eridan either orphaned or dead than as his friend. He's an unstable maniac, and there's a reason so many members of his team don't like him even though he's legitimately not casteist and they mostly seem aware of it (nobody really complains about or even notices Eridan's casteism by the time they're on the meteor - his contradictions are really obvious, and it's likely that they've more or less realized that he's full of shit).

Again, I don't begrudge anybody for wanting or liking PQ. Who cares, really. I'm just saying that as a canon discussion blog, there's not really any place for PQ because it's so far removed from canon that, like, there's not really anything meaningful to discuss about it. The setting and characters in PQ are fundamentally divested from canon, and not even in an AU way. And it's totally fine if that's what you like, but, yeah, like.

Was Eridan written well (where "well" = accurate to canon): no. Maybe he's fine as an OC with an Eridan Minecraft skin slapped on, but that's not my beautiful son, that's not my baby boy.

What did they get wrong about Eridan (where "wrong" = inaccurate to canon): all.

What route would I have written for Eridan: he shoots you with a gun and you die. And then maybe cheats on you with Karkat

[velvetwyrme]

me while in the middle of writing like 4 other things: what if. soundwave/reader/jazz fic. what then.

[mistninja]

Summary: Fitz is the illegitimate son of Chivalry Farseer, the heir of the rich and influential Farseer family, born from a one-night stand during Chivalry's college years. These are a collection of journal entries throughout Fitz's life, from his first year at the Buckkeep Boarding School to his late 40s.

I’m doing the thing 🫠 Let me know your thoughts... or don’t....

[rowyndodendron]

IPHIGENEIA'S SACRIFCE, AKA: "THAT'S NOT WHAT FUCKING HAPPENED"

Every time someone describes/reduces Agamemnon’s choice to sacrifice Iphigenia as "he killed his daughter to go to war" or "he killed his daughter for favourable winds to get to Troy faster" I lose 10 years off my life. Which means by this point I died approximately 9,000 years ago.

Because y'all...y'all do understand that was NOT the choice, right? Like. It was not "Iphigenia lives, no war" vs "Iphigenia dies, yes war!" That was NOT the choice. That was NEVER the choice. It was NEVER that simple. It was NEVER that easy. IT WAS NEVER ACTUALLY THAT CHOICE AT ALL. The choice is not Iphigenia or war. The choice is not even whether Iphigenia lives or dies. The only actual choice Agamemnon gets to make, realistically speaking, is HOW Iphigenia dies.

ARTEMIS IS A GOD!!!

First of all: Artemis is a GOD. Artemis, the god, DEMANDED Agamemnon sacrifice his daughter to appease her/because she was pissed at him. Do you REALLY think, ignoring the gathered army for a moment (I'll get there), but just thinking purely from an Agamemnon-Artemis standpoint for a moment she would have let him just say no?

Hypothetically, if Agamemnon had said, "eh, nah, don't really fancy killing my own kid, actually, I'll just go home and forget about this war business" do you HONESTLY believe that Artemis would've been like "yeah, cool bro, it's all good, I'm no longer mad about the Special Deer you killed, we're even-stevens, have a lovely trip home, tell the wife I said hello." NO!!!! This is a PUNISHMEMT. This is Artemis taking revenge for Agamemnon’s mistake/in some instances his hubris and boasting. Any circumstance here that does not end with a dead Iphigenia therefore ends with a dissatisfied Artemis. And that ain't happening*.

*I also do NOT believe/credit any 'Artemis was trying to stop the war/emphasise the cost of war/use Iphigenia to show Agamemnon how the innocents suffer in war' takes. Because no. This is the same goddess who, alongside Apollo, murdered 12 of one of Agamemnon’s ancestors children because she boasted about having better pussy game than Artemis' mum. Artemis also shows up to stick her bow in a couple of times in the Iliad for the lolz. And it's clearly stated this war is happening/continuing/not being allowed to end BECAUSE of the gods in the Iliad.

The idea Artemis actually was trying to stop things/believed the war would stop if Agamemnon ~understood the cost~ is bullshit. (Not least because Agamemnon 1) is one of the few Greek Kings present who has firsthand war experience. 2) if you don't know already just…just go google the house of atreus then come back and try telling me fucking AGAMEMNON doesnt understand the suffering of innocents lmfao

This is a standard: mortal pisses off god, god demands they pay the price. The price is Iphigenia being killed. The only real choice Agamemnon has is how that happens. And, beyond the whole “pissed off god” thing (as if that wasn't enough) there are other factors here too:

ITCHY ARMIES

It's been discussed before that Agamemnon is not really alone in making this decision. Because there are: 1,000 ships (give or take) with him, each with, let's say, around 100 soldiers. That equals: a lot of people - around 100,000 soldiers. That's: a lot of fucking people. It's also: a lot of fucking people squished in a not very large space.

Source

See that lil red blob? That's Aulis. See the skinny channel between Aulis and the above chunk of land (which is Eubeoa). Yeh that’s where A Lot of ships are squished. Aulis was an ASSEMBLY point, it was meant to be the place everyone gathered, quick headcount, then yeet. They're not supposed to stay there.

Lots of Regular Ass People, nevermind soldiers, smooshed in one place causes lots of things to happen. None of them are good. Building boredom, and building tension, and building frustration is going to lead to: an increase in fights, scuffles, discontent and discipline issues. Especially amidst a group of soldiers who are newly assembled, newly brought together to mingle with other armies (and there WILL be factions who have previous beefs and are disposed to having enmity with each other). Add into that the fact most of the commanders/kings don't really have any proper experience in war/have just wrangled up their troops that's…a bad set-up and is asking for the army to eat itself alive if left long enough.

Pressures adding onto that, one of which is: disease/sickness. Even without divine help (thanks Apollo!) of plague spreading, lots of people smooshed in small spaces, especially with fighting/injuries, that's going to cause illness and infection. That's: bad.

Also…

“BECALMED!” “I AM CALMED!!!!!”

Something I see talked about LESS but which definitely feels like A Big Problem to me from my EXTENSIVE knowledge of it (thanks Black Sails!) is the ships being what we call ‘becalmed’. This sounds pleasant! It is: not. (Obligatory disclaimer i am Not, in general, A Boat Expert (i actually get seasick looool) BUT, some quick googleage confirms that, as I guessed, this would be: Bad.)

Being becalmed essentially means: the wind goes away, your sailing ship with its lovely big sails is great, a marvel of ancient world exploration! It can't do shit if there's: no wind. It gets stuck. Drifting vaguely and sadly waiting for the winds to pls come back so it can: go somewhere.

This USUALLY happens out on open sea and is very obviously: not desirable. However it can ALSO happen even while ships are at port under ‘certain circumstances’ in this case those circumstances are: pissed off gods. No wind means no movement. No movement means: no war and no Troy. No movement ALSO means: no going home.

“But but but ROWYN! What about the ROWERS!!!The Greek ships, according to Homer (and history) generally had oars!” I hear u boat people shriek. And yes they did! Oar-driven ships can also become becalmed in situations of rowers being: sleepy, the oars being broken or damaged, or currents/winds that are too strong to row against. (Or, mayhaps...an angry god!)

At a certain point the logic of boats etc has to be tempered by, well, temper. Specifically: Artemis’. In theory if we were just dealing with normal old ‘mother nature is being a bitch and has said ‘no winds for now!’’ that's one thing. And under those circumstances the fleet could've likely just oared its way out of port and off to Troy. We also have the element of: a pissed off god to consider.

UNDER PRESSURE (not the fun Queen kind)

The lack of winds is a means of applying pressure. Because, let's be real, no at least semi-reasonable human being (which Agamemnon, largely, WAS) is going to look at a daughter he loves (which Agamemnon evidently DID) and go “alright sweetie, unfortunately papa has to murder you now” without exhausting: ALL OTHER OPTIONS.

That means Artemis had to prevent any other options from working. So that there is an UNAVOIDABLE/INSURMOUNTABLE pressure/some sort of force pushing Agamemnon irresistibly towards: child sacrifice. That means Artemis is not going to let them just casually row their way out of port. Nor is she going to let them go home to abandon the attempt/try again later. She wants Agamemnon to be appropriately punished. Appropriately punished, as Artemis has decided, is Agamemnon killing Iphigenia. That means they are, supernaturally, becalmed. That is: very bad.

There are 100,000+ soldiers PLUS (as the Iliad notes) OTHER crew like rowers and clerks in ADDITION to the soldiers. They do not have supplies prepared to sustain them on an extended stop at what was supposed to just be a meeting place. They are NOT in a place designed to hold/support that many people. The land around them is filled with their OWN people CANNOT feed/water that extra months smooshed in here. And the whole “angry god says no ship movement” means they can't raid further afield/NOT their own people.

Artemis has essentially arranged it so that even if, by some (not-happening) MIRACLE, the kings manage to keep control of their increasingly unruly armies and they avoid in-fighting/mutiny/disease: these people are all going to start dying from dehydration and starvation. And quickly. People who are: in the process of dying from starvation and dehydration are not typically known for their rational minds and good choices. This is going to increase the tension and pressures and fighting/injury. It's going to increase the death toll.

THE ACTUAL CHOICE

So now Agamemnon’s ACTUAL choice, as enforced by, again, THE LITERAL GOD is: how many of your men are you going to let die before you give in and kill your daughter. With an extra bonus concern of: is your daughter going to get a quick, relatively merciful death or is she going to be torn apart (likely along with Agamemnon, his brother, and inner circle/closest men) by a starving, angry, disease-riddled mob?

This is also, incidentally, why Odysseus gets involved/helps this process. Because much as (apparently) he gets viewed as a ruthless, “ends justify ANY means” borderline sociopathic arsehole: he is not, in actual fact, comfortable with willy-nilly child murder! (What a high bar our blorbos have to clear, y'all…/s). What Odysseus IS capable of/where he excels is logic. And logic (as demonstrated by this feral shrieking which is, believe or fucking not, rooted in logic) says, clearly: Iphigenia is effectively already dead. And was as soon as Artemis made her demand. The only question now is how messy this is going to be/how much Iphigenia is going to suffer for this. Odysseus steps in to try and MINIMISE both (not for the sheer glee of logic-sanctioned child murder, actually)

I WOULD LIKE TO UNINSTALL 'GIVING A FUCK', PLS - Agamemnon

But okay back to Agamemnon and the bonus problem if the starving, angry, disease-riddled mob. Because THOSE PEOPLE are actually also an extra pressure on Agamemnon because he, repeatedly, indisputably and canonically CARES about the lives of the men who have pledged to follow him, and feels guilt/concern which IS STRONGER THAN his stubbornness and pride and just about everything else.

Imma throw some quotations at you now so you can't say this post is JUST me shrieking bc look! Iliad words! (All Iliad references below are from the Richmond Lattimore translation).

'Still I am willing to give her (Chryseis) back, if such is the best way.

I myself desire that my people be safe, not perish. (Iliad, Book 1, Line 116)

HE LITERALLY SAYS IT. LIKE HE SAYS IT RIGHT THERE!!! He tells the army Chryseis is dearer to him than his wife (which is a whole other kettle of fish, i aint getting into that rn) - but the POINT is he loves this woman, and he refused to ransom her back for A Lot Of Money. And he's not HAPPY about it, but as soon as he's told doing so will stop his people dying by plague (thanks Apollo!) he agrees. BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT HIS PEOPLE TO DIE.

"'Still, Zeus, bring to pass at least this thing that I pray for.

Let our men at least get clear and escape, and let not the Achaians be thus beaten down at the hands of the Trojans.’

[Agamemnon] spoke thus, and as he wept the father took pity upon him and bent his head, that the people should stay alive, and not perish.

(Iliad, Book 8, Line 242)

This is LITERALLY what he prays for.

Now keep in mind that in book 2 Zeus sent ‘Evil Dream’ down to Agamemnon and basically ordered him to go attack Troy because Zeus would let him capture the city and be victorious at last. And Zeus straight-up LIED to him. And has done nothing of the sort.

Agamemnon would be well within his rights to be like ‘yo, mate, the FUCK!? Where's my goddamn glory? Where's my victory you yourself promised me like 2 days ago!? Bruh!?!?!?’ (and he does kind of ask WHY, MAN!? WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS!? in the earlier part of this prayer, to be entirely transparent)

But what he ACTUALLY, ACTIVELY PRAYS FOR, is not for victory, or for strength, or personal glory, (which, those who've read the Iliad knows how dang important glory is to everyone/as a central theme), or even the ability to get revenge/payback and kill a bunch of Trojans in return.

Agamemnon asks nothing for himself, or even for vengeance for the dead; he asks for the living. He begs Zeus to please let his men escape and stop them from being slaughtered. And Zeus is so moved by his genuine grief and pain at this that he actually listens, and actually does let the people stay alive, because of Agamemnon’s prayer (and note how the wording echoes Agamemnon’s assertion in book 1- what he desires is his people ‘not perish’, and what Zeus grants in response to his book 8 prayer is that ‘the people…not perish’, further reinforcing that was NOT just talk on Agamemnon’s part).

There are other (many other) instances that prove Agamemnon Cares - but i think we Get It for the purposes of this meta (and I'm going to deep-dive the other examples later anyway), but like you see it, right??? You HAVE to see how much this man GENUINELY cares. He refuses vast amounts of wealth and treasures to ransom back Chryseis - but he's NOT willing to sacrifice any of his soldier's lives and IMMEDIATELY returns her (with additional gifts/his own wealth to make sure things are smoothed over properly). He's so obviously desperate and distraught when he prays, not for glory or victory, that Zeus (who has at this point forbidden his own wife and daughter from interfering to stop the Trojans killing the Greeks) feels pity for him and is moved to help him.

And EVEN IF you wanted to argue that this is an Agamemnon 10 years later and maybe he wasn't like that when the armies first gathered at Aulis…You CANNOT tell me, if THAT is how he responds to random soldiers, many of whom he's likely never even met/doesn't know the names of, yet feels responsibility over because they're HIS people and he is their leader, that he didn't care a thousand times more for his ACTUAL FLESH-AND-BLOOD, HOME GROWN AND RAISED DAUGHTER.

DEATH vs SACRIFICE

I will stand for no more casual “yeah Agamemnon killed his kid for better winds” takes. NO MORE! I WILL HAVE NONE OF IT.

I will permit no further “Agamemnon CHOSE to sacrifice his daughter for the war to go ahead” because did he FUCK. Agamemnon did not CHOOSE to kill Iphigenia. Agamemnon's only CHOICE was how and when she died and how many soldiers went with her.

There was NO way for Agamemnon to save Iphigenia. NONE. Because if there had been ANY alternative AT ALL: he damn well would've fucking taken it. “But but but he could've-” No. He couldn't.

Because Iphigenia's DEATH was not Agamemnon’s punishment and Artemis’ revenge. If it had been Artemis would've just killed her herself, as she did to Niobe's daughters. Iphigeneia's SACRIFICE was Agamemnon’s punishment and Artemis’ revenge.

She wanted HIM to do it. She wanted HIM to kill his child (either by holding the knife, or giving the order, either way). HE had to do that. HE had to actually kill his own child and live with the grief and guilt and consequences of that for the rest of his life. THAT was what she wanted.

He killed her Special Deer and wasn't upset about it, so she wanted him to Feel It. She wanted him to kill something and be tormented by that grief and guilt for the rest of his life, as she felt he should have been over the Special Deer.

Artemis didn't want Iphigenia to die necessarily, she wanted Agamemnon to kill her. (And that's why the last minute switcharoo with the deer on the altar instead works/is sometimes allowed by Artemis- because even if Iphigenia lives, Agamemnon STILL gets to suffer in the knowledge and the guilt that he WOULD have killed her).

WHO LIVES, WHO DIES, WHO TELLS YOU-TO KILL YOUR OWN CHILD? WHAT THE FUCK, ARTEMIS!?

Agamemnon never got to choose if Iphigenia lived or died. The ONLY one who had that power of THAT choice was Artemis herself. (Which is seen, as I mentioned, when sometimes she last minute swaps Iphigenia for a deer (Artemis dropping in another Special Deer for Agamemnon to kill in Aulis like: YOU'LL CARE ABOUT KILLING THIS ONE, MOTHERFUCKER.) and takes Iphigenia as an acolyte instead.

Because (in a rather nice parallel to her father Zeus also being moved by Agamemnon’s pleas to protect his soldiers in the Iliad) Artemis acknowledges that, yeah, this is pretty fucked up actually lol. And she does not necessarily help/forgive Agamemnon - but does protect/spare Iphigenia/his soldiers. And, again as discussed: Agamemnon STILL gets to suffer/live with the consequences of Special Deer Killing Crime with The Guilt…(and also the axe to the face courtesy of Clytemnestra. But I think that was just an added bonus punishment rather than the actual goal tbh)) it's a win-win for Artemis. And a constant soul-crushing loss for Agamemnon.

QUESTION: IMPOSSIBLE CHOICE. ANSWER: GUARANTEED SUFFERING

He could NEVER have saved her. He could NEVER have prevented her death. He could ONLY minimise casualties and suffering. He was in an impossible situation and it could only ever end with the death of his child (or 100,000 random soldiers instead, IF you actually think they'd have all just sat around and died for this, Iphigenia being brought by Agamemnon/Odysseus/Santa Claus or otherwise)That is: FUCKED UP.

It was not about winds. It was not about war. It was not about life or death. It was about saving who and what he could. (Actually it was about: SUFFERING regardless. But in terms of 'what Agamemnon could ACTUALLY influence/change - that's where the minimising agony part comes in.)

ONLY Artemis could stop Iphigenia dying. Agamemnon could only lose. That's why it was a punishment! That's why the story is a tragedy!!! Because there is no way to win.

Try to row to Troy, fuck your lack of wind/impossible demand: god says no.

Try to row home, fuck your lack of wind/impossible demand: god says no.

Refuse to sacrifice Iphigenia:

-Scenario A: Your army of 100,000 men starve/dehydrate/fight/disease their way to death because they CANNOT LEAVE THIS PLACE* (god says no) or raid/resupply (god says no)

*except to go obtain your child. So she can be killed. Bc that's the only thing the god WOULD allow. (Logic, people).

-Scenario B: they decide to help you out and murder your child for you. (and probably you and all your family/closest allies as well). Which is NOT gonna be pleasant.

Sacrifice Iphigenia: congrats you killed your own kid, you are now: sad forever and you STILL have to fight a 10 year long war.

This is what we call: The Ideal Tragedy. A Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose set-up. Just the way the gods like it.

IN CONCLUSION: THE YEET GRENADE OF FACTS AND TRUTH

Okay is that enough now? Can I please stop yapping about this?? Do we concede that “Agamemnon killed Iphigenia to go to war/for better winds to get to war faster/was just soooo horny for that good sweet bloodshed action that he casually executed his firstborn kid” is NOT WHAT FUCKING HAPPENED!?!?!?

NO CHOICE. NO SAVING. NO OPTIONS BUT SUFFERING: the greek god's FAVOURITE way to punish naughty mortals.

May I now please REST!?!?!? too bad, im gonna. But now i have this rant to yeet at peoples’ heads like a damn grenade of Facts And Truth if ppl start @-ing Agamemnon for this. (And u can yeet it too, feel free. This is not just My grenade now, it is Our grenade).

Agamemnon has lots of other Actual Flaws: can we talk about them instead!? Please!! Please god roast this man in a Factual Way, so i dont feel COMPELLED to defend him. That is literally SO doable. I genuinely beg u.

[kindaasrikal]

How tf did this fanfic actually reach 5k words already on chapter one and its not even half way completed.

The things i do for morro 😭

[valentineveils]

my watcher is my specialist guy ever cus he's so . hes just so . ough info-dump time ! sorry in advance

vicious is a human nature godlike , from the deadfire archipelago , and a former mercenary . he's been raised as a mercenary his whole life , by his father after being taken from his mother at birth [by his father] . yes he has issues about it . i dont think vicious will ever be able to meet her . especially considering she'd be expecting to meet a daughter , and not a son . his father mostly wanted him as a figurehead , a shining spot on his mercenary group due to him being a godlike ,. something to give it attention - more money , more status , more control . he reveres his son as a fragment of luck more than he loves him as his child . his dad did love him , twisted as he was - but it was never enough . even with all that , it does Not work . but vicious never gets to leave being a mercenary until he's 25 , right at the start of pillars of eternity . while also being hunted by another group he ended up crossing , due to a hit gone awry . he has no idea of that ,. until they take his eye and antler post-game . in hindsight its unfortunate and sad that he's been killing since he was 10 . he's a rogue because i really like rogues he fights very scrappy and ends up being downed in so many fights . he can't dodge to save his soul . he has many issues surrounding galawain and how silent his god is to him , even at 30 years old during deadfire . he sees berath more like his godlike parent than galawain . he's a trans man . he stole a baby orlan [vela] and ended up raising her as his own - which he has a lot of turmoil about ,. he's trying not to be his father . he likes bad jokes . he forgets his winks don't come across as winks anymore . so he just blinks . he tries to choose kindness , duty , and he tries to be rational , but can't help when his hands get covered in blood . he's more honest than deceptive . he's really bad at lying . he kisses aloth .

i think abt him so much ., he struggles sooo much with being a godlike , being galawain's son , being made to be a figurehead instead of having a childhood ., despite all that he's actually quite well-adjusted for someone with . All That going on .

[rosylix]

i love that yall scream with me abt felix and stuff lolllll. i feel weird sometimes like i shouldnt post if im not writing cus yall are pretty much here for my writing.. so if im not writing like no one cares abt me lol but idk its still fun and it makes me so happy that yall still think of me even when ive not been active like thats so sweet?? jdnsjfjjs IDKK i cant articulate my thoughts correctly rn but i just wanted to say ily guys! 🤍🤍

[allastoredeer]

Ya'll ever just

Why is housing so impossible???? Why are there so many hoops you have to jump through just to get a roof over your head???? Who thought it was a good idea to make it hard to live on just one income???? Why is it so hard to live off of two incomes for that matter???

I have a job, I pay taxes like everyone else, so why is it a constant back and forth struggle to pay bills and buy essentials. You know, little things like food. I just woke up, I'm hungry, and I'm craving a few billionaires right now. #EatTheRich

Capitalism continues to suck the life out of me and I am being a husk of my former self.

[ulteri0rm0tives]

WORST part of replaying this game. Is that i actually *have* to progress through (most of) it to see Kerry again... Like having to wade through little chocolate gold colds to get to the real shit that ACTUALLY matters.

It actually sucks you meet him so late in the game and only get so much time with him :( especially because I (personally) find his romance and plotline to be one of the more developed slash more enjoyable ones and I just :( wish they gave us more time with him ugh I jUST MISS HIM OKAY GUYS I MISS THIS OLD MAN!!!

[xxplastic-cubexx]

im not exaggerating when i say ive been staring at your newest twitter art for the past twenty minutes. i feel ill Why can i hear them

the thigh size difference, the codpiece, charles drooling and Shaking that man is Gone, mags' smug smile and uh. his uhm . Hes HUGE..... charles How do you take that thing and live to tell the tale... and mags' lil speech bubble, what filth could he be sayin..... much to think about, i think i hauve covid, THEY LOOK SO GOOD, apologies to your bro's sneakers but i for one am very happy with this outcome :3 as always thank you so much for your service 🫡🫡

thank you for the review on my doodles today!!!!! i looked deep into my soul and let it do the rest......