#it's so frustrating that people ignore part of her character because they don't think it /fits/ with her nonconformity

[princess-of-the-corner]

Glad you liked the submission, as I have more on the Aware of Abuse AU!

I think it would be really interesting to reflect on how this situation would be kind of a drawn out grapple for Marinette. This is in no way salt and I think if it was written she'd both warrant having hear grievances hear, but also could definitely come off as a bit antagonistic, or at least wary.

(Exactly how hostile she defaulted to with Chloe tended to oscillate episode to episode so ya know how it be)

Marinette would have the easiest time getting close with Kagami. She has no history like with Chloe & no baggage, IE friendship with Chloe, like Adrien. Tomoe is not someone Marinette admires and its much easier to see abuse in the physicals side. While she'd struggle to see it more in the verbal or negligence side; or otherwise be able to rationalize the negative behaviors such as over protectiveness.

Meanwhile Adrien would be tied a lot closer to Chloe going into school as she'd be being less overtly antagonistic or vain. Plus, they'd have a much stronger "We need each other to keep from falling back into old patterns and to survive" mentality.

Plus Adrien would be a bit more overtly snarky and less respectful to authority or stuff like Gabriel's fashion shows. He still is very nice and super wants to be liked by everyone all the time, but it'd be a lot easier for her to see the negatives in his behavior.

Chloe meanwhile would probably rankle and outright frustrate her the most. Not just because she'd still be hard to get along with in general, or because she still is not against ignoring rules or disrespecting authority figures. But because...

No clue what your religious views may or may not be, but have you heard those talks of "Catholic guilt" and the idea of needing to suffer, do penance, ETC before one can be redeemed?

Marinette wouldn't strictly think or want that, but there would be a part of her that would sort of... Well resent that Chloe is seemingly just choosing to change and not even necessarily enough.

That is to say, Chloe might still rudely reject Sabrina's cookies out of hand but then instantly walk it back and have some.

But more in that she's suffered no defeat, she's not been taken from her previous luxurious circumstances, she hasn't seemingly lost anything and even more she'd not even be overtly contrite.

That is to say, Chloe wouldn't be doing stuff akin to the Lady Luck AU (Nothing against it, great fic!) where she'd frequently reflect on how much of a 'fuck up' she was. Or or say stuff like, "I know I was a bitch but I am trying to be better". Or feel guilt in the "I can't even be mad they assume the worst of me cos I probably would have done X."

She's just choosing to be different and on some level its deeply unsatisfying and even frustrating.

(Where is the arc, the climax, the catharsis!?)

Especially if some people roll with it or let her get away with it when she starts falling into old habits.

Marinette doesn't want Chloe to suffer or beg forgiveness or hate herself she doesn't. She just doesn't understand why now? Why at all? Why because of her friend? Why because of how she was treated and not how she treated others?

Why couldn't she care enough about hurting Marinette to change!?

That I think would be the lynch-pin and one that is, from Marinette's perspective, as well as others in and out of universe entirely sympathetic, she was hurt after all.

But in that same vain Chloe's an abused child lashing out due to trauma and taught such terrible lessons she sometimes couldn't process that she wasn't doing 'right'.

Marinette's been hurt, and that would need to be properly addressed. But it wouldn't need to happen in a self recriminating manner necessarily.

Not that I don't love those, self hating characters rife with issues are fun to explore. It is just that I think it'd be interesting to explore both, changing as a person, and a "Bad" victim getting help before they actually even start processing over much how others might warrant reoperations.

Does that make sense?

The story "restorative Justice" sort of dips into this from a different middle ground angle and most stuff by Generalluxun often have elements of it too.

Oh yeah no it's.

Marinette doesn't understand why Chloé is Like That™ in the first place, so she can't fathom her wanting to change.

From Mari's perspective, Chloé's life is pretty perfect. She's beautiful, she's rich. She can do whatever she wants whenever she wants and always gets her way through money or influence. She's always bragging about how she's so much better than everyone. Clearly her parents must adore her because they spoil her with gifts and never tell her 'no'. Any 'hardships' are just minor inconveniences that Chloé brought upon herself by being mean.

So why would Chloé choose to change? If it's not broke, don't fix it. Chloé's life is Perfect™, why would she do something to make it different?

It's not that she wants Chloé to suffer, or thinks that she /should/ suffer. She just doesn't understand why someone with a Perfect Life™ would change without going through some kind of suffering that forces introspection.

[fromtheseventhhell]

People erasing Asha's attraction to/relationships with men because she's a non-conforming woman is very weird (i.e. homophobic and misogynistic)

[snickerdoodlles]

one of my most formative fandom experiences was a comment i had gotten on a fic i wrote for a halloween themed fandom event.

this was for a manga/anime, so the fic was a general ghost story obviously set in Japan. the beginning of it involved a pizza delivery and while writing it, i had spent like 30 minutes just double checking tipping customs and the types of pizza they serve and even fell down a wikipedia rabbit hole looking up the history of pizza in Japan.

now, i just like the research part of writing, i do stuff like this because i have fun doing it. and while i was writing this particular fic, i had laughed at myself for my 30 minutes of googling that amounted to 2.5 offhand lines in a 3500 word fic. i didn't think anyone would care about or even notice those particular details except for me, especially since none of them were relevant to the ghost part of this ghost story.

except, when i had sent this fic to a Japanese friend, the first thing she said to me about it was "OH MY GOD YOU GOT THE PIZZA RIGHT"

and that was the moment when it had really clicked for me. what had just been 30 minutes of effort on my part had become a moment of relief for her. my friend was far more used to reading ethnocentric fic that ranged from unintentional ignorance to outright superiority against part of her culture (the original story's culture no less). and even with the "innocent" ignorance (heavy quotes on that) far outstripping any outright maliciousness, that's still so many people saying her culture was not worth learning about. the pizza in my story was a small detail, but i had cared enough to put in some effort to check it. and for her, coming from a fic experience where her norm was bracing for hundreds of inaccuracies born of ignorance, especially at that time after a flood of stories centered around "Halloween as a cultural holiday in the US" premises instead of the "Halloween is a commercial gimmick in Japan" reality, seeing someone put in some effort even for minor story details meant something to her.

this also throws me back to the discourse that arose in a french show fandom a few years ago because there were a lot of fic authors that wrote 'dollars' instead of 'euros'-- but when people brought this up as a prevalent issue across the fandom but an easy one to fic/watch out for, many of these writers instead pushed back to complain that they were posting stories for free and it wasn't that big of a deal. which really upset a lot of people, but then this upset was met with a new wave of indignation that people needed to 'get over it' because they're writing fic ~just as a hobby~. but, even if 'dollars' instead of 'euros' wasn't a big deal, by digging in their heels about the issue, they were saying "your culture isn't worth even five minutes of my time or effort."

I've been thinking about these things lately because the ethnocentrism in Thai drama fandoms is...staggering. just over the turn of the year, there were waves of Christmas fic for Buddhist characters. and just. Christmas in Thailand is a tourist thing at best. sometimes a pop culture gimmick for international audiences or maybe an offhand high school thing to blow off steam between midterms. it's not a cultural thing. and even if a character is a part of the Christian minority, a Christian Thai's holiday customs and culture are going to be vastly different than a Christian's customs in the Americas or Europe. and while the Christmas fic is at least finished for now, I'm already bracing myself for the Easter fic wave that also seems to pop up for Thai dramas. it's so frustrating to see this sort of cultural overwrite all the time, especially since most Thai drama holiday works aren't about Thai holidays.

but the thing that really got me bristling about all of this again was i saw a post the other day where op said that they weren't going to write [thai drama] fic because they don't know much about thailand.

what an absolutely appalling statement to make.

google is right there. wikipedia is free. you don't even have to leave tumblr or AO3 to learn more because there are Thai natives in fandom who write essays to explain common elements of their culture. hell, even just watching these Thai stories and considering the values and messages imparted by the narrative framework and story lens tells you something about that culture. the audacity to look at a culture different from your own and say "this is not worth my effort or time to learn anything more about," are you kidding me?!?

the messages and values of a story tell you about the writer's values, which are going to carry their cultural values, beliefs, and biases. Thai culture is going to be heavily relevant to any Thai story, even the ones that aren't explicitly about Thai culture/customs/etc. (hell, Thai bl/gl as a genre alone-- just the fact that queer Thai writers are making these stories in Thailand's current political climate is highly political, even the "fluffy" ones that don't seem to make outright political statements.) to approach any story like it was made in a vacuum is to remove the writer(s)' culture and values and to overwrite them with your own.

especially because this is fandom. these are the lowest stakes to learn! it sucks to see people say things like "but i'm scared i'll get something wrong" and hold up that fear as a shield to justify their ignorance. no one's expecting anyone to get every detail right, especially not for a culture that isn't theirs, just make an effort to learn something new about it. pick out something that caught your eye as different to learn more about and see where it leads you.

and for the record--making a mistake trying to broaden your horizons is a far, far better thing to do than to superimpose your culture on everyone else's because you're scared to confront your ignorance.

edit: check out this reblog thanks

[ao3commentoftheday]

been having a bit of a weird time in fandom recently, because i recently got into a new ship (call them A/B), in a pretty well-established fandom. A and B are both pretty new characters in this media, and a lot of people's initial impressions of B was that she's a bratty childish dramatic type, and that A (more on the serious side) was her "dad". but that bit of characterisation on B's part was revealed to be largely a facade. A also had a decently popular ship with another character C, and it's been a bit frustrating? because people who ship A/C will show up in completely unrelated A/B posts to like. intentionally ignore the explicit romantic implications of things like, A/B fanart of them dancing, and call it a father-daughter dance, or insinuate the artist is a pedophile for... *checks notes* ...daring to ship an unrelated adult woman and adult man with one another. and on the other hand (because A/B is a f/m ship and A/C is a m/m ship) there are people in the A/B community who are going out of their way to say weird homophobic bullshit about A/C. idk, i'm just. frustrated because it's been a struggle trying to find a community in this fandom that isn't either weird about A/B or weird about the,,, general existence of gay people. any recs on how to find that?

Oof. Fandom sure is a place, huh?

I think step one has got to be blocking all of the assholes. I'm extremely liberal with the block and unfollow buttons myself, and it makes my tumblr experience pretty great. You can mute people on AO3 too, for anyone who wasn't already aware, and block them from commenting on your works or replying to your comments elsewhere.

But that just removes the people you don't want to see. How do you find the ones you do want to see?

Start with one person. If you can find one person who also likes A/B but is normal about gay people existing, follow them and see who they follow so you can follow them too.

Post about A/B yourself. Talk about the ship, and when someone from A/C comes barging in being horrible, remove their replies, hide their reblogs, and block them. Don't feel the need to engage because that's just going to be a bad time for everyone concerned.

Be the kind of fan that you're looking for and you'll become a sort of beacon for the other ones who feel the same way.

What advice do the rest of you have? How did you find "your people" in the midst of a fandom that ... wasn't your cup of tea?

[xan-from-space]

Honestly if any Dungeon Meshi character deserved an expanded role in the series, it should have been Rin. She's the character to me who most feels like her story is incomplete and glossed over...probably the one instance where the manga actually frustrated me with its refusal to engage with her as a character in favor of Kabru.

I mean, the backstory Kui gives her in the extra content is, like all of them, really well thought out, but in the manga itself a lot of the time she kind of just exists as an accessory to Kabru? Like, she's the Girl who Likes Kabru to Establish that Girls Like Kabru...there's a couple moments in the manga where we see hints of a deeper character, but most of her story is relegated to the extra content...which sucks because I think her role in the story and especially her history with the elves is so incredibly important to understanding the wider world.

Because we mostly learn about the elves through the eyes of Kabru, and while Kabru didn't have a great experience with the elves for sure, he was doted on, a golden child. We do learn that Rin was treated terribly by the elves in the manga, but again, we learn it through Kabru's words and it's not really something that's focused on. I think Kabru has genuinely good intentions and cares a lot about humanity, but unconsciously he has a tendency to treat people like pawns in a similar way that the elves do; part of his character arc is learning to be actually genuine with people, but that only actually happens once he's separated from the rest of his party, with people he barely knows. It makes sense for him and the place he's at, but I can't imagine how frustrating that must have been for Rin, who doesn't really have anyone else. She's trapped in an unresolved character arc, left in this limbo space of chasing after someone who just doesn't have the same reliance on her that she has on him.

If I were writing the manga, I would have made her a character of equal importance to Kabru. Rin would balance out his role in the story...she's more pessimistic than him, for good reason, and despite or maybe because of the ease in which he traverses the social and political worlds, in many ways I think she understands the world better than him. I want to see the world from her perspective, to learn more about what her view of the dungeon is and why she's supporting Kabru in his quest to become the next dungeon lord, to see her grapple with her trauma, for her to have to learn to lead the party when Kabru isn't there, for her to come into her own as a character. I also feel like she just would fill out the main cast in a really satisfying way...she could easily be a narrative foil for so many characters, Kabru obviously, but also Marcille, Izutsumi (God, think about the potential interaction between Rin and Izutsumi), Thistle maybe, there's probably more if I spent more time thinking about it

Also kind of going on a tangent here but she's sooo ignored on the fandom side. Frankly I think that whatever Rin and Kabru have going on is just as interesting if not more so than the relationships between Kabru and Laios and between Kabru and Mithrun, but I don't think I've seen a single post or art piece on this website where she's present in his life at all (or even not present in an intentional way that would serve her character.) To be clear I'm not saying that I ship them or whatever (kind of hate that word tbh) or think they should end up in a romantic relationship (I really do not think they should end up in a romantic relationship). But like. Come on. They're so important to each other's characters and she can't just be written out of his story.

[kitkatopinions]

When people talk about how "rwde is mad that RWBY subverts expectations" I wonder how much of what's considered subverting expectations is actually ignoring set up, doing things out of nowhere, and actually doing a popular and very much so expected thing.

Like don't get me wrong, I do think sometimes people have ideas for what RWBY should've been and then think that it was more set up then it actually was. Like, people who took Blake saying she grew up outside the kingdoms and had to learn to fight to mean "I am an orphan and spent my whole life on the streets" that then got mad when Blake had pretty big house and parents. I might agree that RWBY perhaps shouldn't have given Blake the privileges they gave her specifically because of how they decided to use her to tell the other Faunus to stop being mean to their oppressors (though I'd sooner throw that part out than get rid of Blake being the daughter of a leader with a big house,) but I don't think it was pulling the rug out from under people the way some people do.

However, then you have things like Adam, where some people in RWDE are saying "he was set up as this interesting character who would be an ideological foil for Blake that cared about the cause and his people, and it felt like he'd be used as a way to talk about the injustice in the world of Remnant and then was reduced to nothing but a girl-obsessed hate sink two dimensional incel" and some anti-rwde people are hitting back with "you're just upset that the edgy bad-boy isn't getting redeemed, you just wanted Adam to be Zuko, but RWBY subverted your expectations by not redeeming him and instead giving Ilia the redemption arc, and giving Blake and Yang the sympathy."

And there's a lot to unpack, there. Including the fact that redemption arcs and sympathy aren't a zero-sum game in fiction and as someone who loves both redemption arcs and when characters get justified sympathy, it's frustrating when people act like there isn't enough redemption to go around as if it's a pie and Adam getting a piece of it means Ilia doesn't get any.

But more to the point, A. I at least have zero interest in Adam being a Zuko, because so much of Zuko's redemption arc hinged on Zuko confronting his and his people's role in oppression. Adam is oppressed. Zuko was scarred by an abusive father and banished from home, Adam was branded like cattle by a supremacist who he was working for as a child laborer. Although both are incredibly sympathetic, they're incredibly different. Whether or not the writers were trying to harken back to Zuko (which I believe they were,) they seemed to completely miss the differences between the two characters, and also deciding to 'subvert expectations' when the circumstances they themselves wrote were so different is a bad look at best. As if they couldn't have 'subverted expectations' with a different character like Cardin or Jacques or even Roman Torchwick, that wasn't a member of their in-universe oppressed minority group.

B. A member of an oppressed people group that's been hurt by the oppressors of the world and yet spends their time committing horrible cruel acts that force the heroes to stand against them is not some never before heard of thing. In fact, it's very common. A revolutionary supposedly fighting for equality that's actually hurting the people he's supposedly fighting for is a pretty regular every day thing. People have literally been criticizing how it's misused and usually racist propaganda (usually written by white people) since long before RWBY was even concepted. Adam isn't a proper subversion of anything, in my opinion, because you can't do the common thing and then say you subverted expectations by not doing the less common thing. Which in this case, the less common thing would actually be to make the oppressed person who had been branded and was shown fighting for the rights of his people to actually be a nuanced and complicated character who does deserve sympathy and could be redeemed.

C. It might just be me, but if you're going to 'subvert expectations' then the thing you write instead of the expectation had better be pretty freaking good. Because sometimes the expectation is there because it just works well. Like in a group of heroes, you expect them to develop a friendship. If people want to subvert expectations by instead having them hate each other, the story better be golden because the reason people tend to expect friendship is that it's usually much easier to connect to character dynamics when they actually like each other. If you're going to write a story where hope is a central theme, but you want to subvert expectations by making a sympathetic and cool character with a personal connection to the mains look like they're gonna get redeemed but then instead make them just the worst person imaginable, then you better do it super well and make him instead a great well-rounded nuanced and fun to hate villain. So not only do we have to pay attention to why the writers shouldn't have gone that route for Adam, we gotta look at the quality of what they did with it, and... Nope. It sucked. Adam was paper thin and horribly voice acted and honestly if he'd never attacked in V6 nothing would've really changed because it had no real consequences that couldn't have been better achieved in a different way, and introducing his branding scar in the same scene he got stabbed was purely for shock value, and nothing came of his character, and idk if Ruby ever even learned his name on screen or Weiss knew anything about him, and it was so badly done. If you're going to 'subvert expectations,' you gotta do it well, or people are always going to want the thing they expected in the beginning instead. Unfortunately, the RWBY writers didn't write Adam well at all. So I for one can't blame anyone for saying 'honestly, I wish they'd gone with the other thing.'

D. Back to 'sometimes when people say subverting expectations, they really mean ignored set up.' With Adam in particular, I do believe that he was always meant to be a bad guy who did bad cruel things from the very first trailer he appeared in, but that doesn't at all mean that set up wasn't ignored. From Blake talking about him as a mentor, to her crediting him with the Grimm masks, to the ideological differences, to Cinder literally having to threaten and coerce him into working with her on screen, the set up indicated that at the very least, this would be a complicated and nuanced 'villain with a point' and that point was going to matter and be addressed. The set up was that Cinder's coercion was going to be addressed and would matter. The set up was that Blake's complicated feelings about Adam and her desire to help her people and her later established care and compassion for Ilia (who may I remind people is at least just as bad as seasons 1-3 Adam in at least attempt if not execution,) would lead somewhere when it came to Adam. The set up was that seeing a child laborer literally branded on the face with the logo of WEISS'S COMPANY would lead to big discussions and some sort of recognition of just how bad the current system is and how bad the SDC itself as always been. And instead Weiss as far as we know never even heard about it and continued on being angry that she wasn't set to be CEO and calling her grandfather a hero and Blake was completely disinterested in attending a rally against Jacques Schnee and teased Weiss about her family owning half of Atlas. Like ???

E. Doing things out of nowhere is also not subverting expectations. In regards to Adam, this looks like randomly making him totally obsessed with Blake enough that he stalks her for weeks when he literally let her go repeatedly before that. Doing things out of nowhere is making Adam not care an ounce about his people in order to do whatever Salem says when we saw him reject Cinder outright and need to be coerced with threats to his people. Those aren't subverting expectations, that's just doing one thing and then retconning the character to do something out of character.

This post turned out to be mostly about Adam, but there's tons of examples of this, like people saying RWDE are mad that the writers 'subverted expectations' by making Ironwood turn evil when we were sitting there like 'the fact that he wasn't evil was subverting expectations in the first place! And they had to throw V3 out the window to get where they were in V8! And it was super badly done!' People just throw around 'subverting expectations' when it comes to RWBY because it sounds a lot better than 'flying by the seats of their pants doing whatever pops into their heads with no care or consideration towards set-up or emotional pay off' but that's it, that's what the RWBY writers seem to do. When I expect something to happen in RWBY, it's because it's the natural thing that makes sense to happen, and in their supposed effort to 'subvert expectations,' the writers instead made a show with no consequences where you can't expect the writers to make anything that happens matter and you can't trust what's in the show because the writers might say sike and retcon it. It's endlessly frustrating to be like 'hey was any of what was in the show going to matter' and then have people say 'you're just mad because RWBY subverted your expectations.' RWBY subverted my expectation that the show would be good, how about that?

You know, if the show actually was interested in subverting expectations, Jaune wouldn't be in the show nearly as much and he'd be more gender-non-conforming and be a support healer role instead of the man now with like twenty years of experience on the mains who always has his trauma get plenty of focus and gets away with screaming in Ruby's face that she's responsible for all bad things while he mourns the three different women that were shoved in the fridge for the sake of his character development. They could've started with making the white straight cis able-bodied not-faunus man actually not be a basic underdog-protagonist turned Michael-Scarn-esque tragic hero that Weiss lusts after, but whoops. Like what am I supposed to think, that they're super interested in subverting expectations for the sake of women when Jaune is right there guzzling up screen time? Nah babes.

(Before someone comes in here talking about Adam-obsessed fan boys, I do not even like Adam, canon Adam is not only gross but far too two-dimensional for me to even enjoy, and my own ideas for rewrites involve me boiling Adam down to a concept and building him up again as if he was a different character as much 'Adam' as Ruby is Red Riding Hood. Nobody accuse me of being an Adam-obsessed dudebro or I will lose it. Because that's another thing that a lot of anti-RWDE people seem to do, is decide that the only reason anyone would ever talk about problems with Adam is because they're an obsessed incel man. And meanwhile I'm over here as a bi-women who dislikes Adam partially because he reminds me of my controlling 'my happiness is your responsibility' ex-boyfriend who we - long story - thought might've stabbed someone with a sword once. So yeah, not an Adam fanboy lol.)

[amnesique]

do i wanna know? — tyler galpin

part 1 part 2

pairing: tyler galpin x reader x xavier thorpe

summary: after tyler defended you in front of your ex-boyfriend, you helped him get rid of the anger, that was still running through his veins, in your special ways.

warnings: SMUT (18+, minors dni!), briefly violence (towards another character), car sex, angry sex, unprotected sex, quickie, switch!tyler galpin, switch!reader.

the sheriff kicked all three of you, —you, tyler and xavier—, out of the cafe to scold you. you were somewhere behind it, xavier sitting down on the couch, holding his head back to try to stop the bleeding, while you were sitting with your arms crossed over your chest, somewhere on the left side, away from him, but close to tyler.

"i can't believe you, tyler! you've stooped so low as to pick a fight with someone over a girl!" said his father, clearly very disappointed that all the customers had to witness such a thing. he didn't know how he was going to get back inside and meet the people there.

tyler rolled his eyes, while xavier had a satisfied grin on his face, pleased that even the sheriff was against his own son. "he humiliated her in front of everyone!" tyler continued to be on your side, losing his temper as he straightened his back against the wall he was leaning to, with his arms crossed over his chest.

despite everything, the fact that the galpin boy didn't back down even when he was scolded by his father and continued to be on your side, to take your defense made you feel an emptiness in your stomach. no one had done this before, not even xavier.

it was nice to have someone willing to fight for you.

xavier let a weak laugh roll across his lips and in a split second, tyler rushed to appear in front of him, grabbing him by the collar and slamming his head back so hard he slammed into the hard wall of the cafe, causing you to take a step back and look in shock, hand to your mouth.

"do you want me to help you get your blood flowing even harder and you don't know how to ask me?" he said to xavier, his jaw clenched.

his words made you feel more attracted to him.

but it didn't last long because the sheriff stepped in, pulling tyler, by the shirt, away from xavier, "that's enough!" he yelled and pushed his son behind him so as not to have access to the nevermore student in front of him, who was still holding his nose and was whimpering weakly.

"go home! and take y/n with you," the sheriff added, running his hand over his chin in frustration. "i'll stay here, trying to convince thorpe not to sue the hell out of you for all of this."

"i don't think so," muttered xavier, continuing to add fuel to the fire.

if the sheriff wasn't there, xavier would've been six feet under just because of the look tyler gave him at that moment.

he turned his back and he motioned for you to disappear as he yelled at his son, "what the hell are you waiting for, son?"

forced by the situation, tyler tore his apron off him and threw it on the floor, barely accepting that he needs to move. but he did. with you very close behind him.

but he didn't say a word, nor did he wait for you, until you two reached his car, which was parked also behind the cafe.

he got in first, slammed the door behind him and when he heard that you got in the passenger seat and also closed the door he took off, barely giving you any time to put on your seat belt.

"what's wrong with you, tyler?" you yelled at him as he continued to press the accelerator. "you act like it's all my fault!" you added, seeing that he was ignoring you, and you couldn't deny that even though it scared you to see how fast he was driving, it also turned you on to see how his fingertips clenched around the steering wheel.

upon hearing your last words, he exhaled the air he was holding in his lungs and took his foot off the accelerator, letting the car return to a normal speed, while his breathing was calming down in a slow rhythm.

“no way it's your fault,” he whispered, not looking at you, and you might not have heard him if you weren't already paying attention to him.

"so what's all this about?" you asked him, feeling yourself starting to get sensitive, gesturing between the two of you.

he ran his tongue over his lower lip, eyes still fixed on the road. "i don't know what you mean," he answered briefly and to the point, even if he was lying.

"you do know!" you said, and took off your belt, so you could turn to him. and when he felt your hand touching over his thigh, his whole body stiffened. "you didn't say a word to me in this whole situation and even though you say it's not my fault, you seem angry with me too." you added and continued to move your hand up and down, to get his attention, as you kept glaring at him. with pleading eyes.

no matter how hard he tried to stay rational, to ignore your touches and the gaze, that he could've feel even though he wasn't even looking in your direction, it seemed like his intimate part was making decisions at that moment, at the expense of his brain.

his jeans were getting tight and his thinking was clouded as his breathing was getting heavier.

“stop it,” he said, trying to take your hand off him, but you resisted, resting your hand over the top of his jeans, trying to take them off slowly.

taking advantage of the fact that he had stopped at a traffic light, being a red light, you turned his head with your free hand towards you and being so close to his lips, and with your hand unzipping his jeans, you said, "let me help you."

"no," he said softly, trying to lie to himself that he didn't want this, but making a faint sound as your hand finally unzipped him.

you moved closer to his ear, and moving your palm over the bulge in his boxers, you said, "i know you want this."

remembering that last time he was way too lost under your touch and not only wanting to get even, but also because he was driven by the anger he had because of your ex, he pushed you off of him, he pulled his pants back up on his hips and zipped them back up, then he started the car when the light turned green. and although his gesture should've hurt you, you clenched over nothing at his action and you pressed your lips together to prevent any sound from coming out as you pretended to look out the window.

after a few minutes, finding a place where he knew no one would pass by, he suddenly stopped the car and at the same time the air stopped in your throat.

"what's going on?” you asked tyler, looking up at him uncertainly and ignoring the uneasiness that had settled inside of you.

"get in the back," was all he said, looking in the rearview mirror.

"what—"

"y/n," he said your name in a tone that made you let him have full control of you, "i said 'get in the back'."

you gulped, the uneasiness leaving your body and giving space to impatience to install. and, biting your bottom lip in anticipation, you made room between the seats to slip into the backseat. you could already feel some moisture making its appearance between your legs.

letting you to wait, tyler exited though the driver's door and waited a few minutes with his hand on the back door opener. moments when you looked at him through the car window with the same pleading eyes from earlier, having the same effect on his jeans.

when he opened the door, you cautiously stepped back, leaning back with your head against the glass of the door opposite him, looking at him as if you were a deer caught by the hunter. you didn't even realize when your dominant part was over and his was just beginning.

he quickly closed the door, and then, with slow movements, he made room for himself by climbing over your body, with his lips close to yours. using the same teasing that you used on him. not just once, but twice.

you wanted so badly to kiss him, to taste his lips again, but when you tried to connect your lips with his, it took all the resistance in him to place a finger over your lips and to stop you, while leaning on you with his other hand, that he rested on your hip.

"please...", you said, although you didn't know what you were begging him to do.

a not-so-subtle smirk appeared on his lips, "what are you asking me to do, exactly?", using the same words against you that you had used when the roles were reversed.

and yet, what he wouldn't have expected was when you ran your tongue over his finger, sucking it. at that moment his dominance was slipping and he barely managed to be able to keep it on, as he withdrew his finger placing his hand over your neck instead, squeezing lightly. what he didn't know was that you were into it, but he found out quickly, when a squeal of pleasure left your lips.

to silence you, he kissed you, quickly, forcefully, as if he longed to do it again for a long time. and the hand on your hip made its way, between you two, under the dress that you wore, quickly finding its place over the material of your panties.

he felt the effect he had on you from the first contact with the material and he hurried to get it off of you, at the same time pulling down his pants and boxers in one movement. and yet, all this time your lips had not parted. besides, each of you were breathing harder, also existing a few moans here and there, from the both of you.

he hurried to line himself up at your entrance, suddenly pushing himself in and swallowing the moan you let out over his lips.

all the anger he felt towards xavier thorpe, your ex boyfriend, —and the fact that xavier had you before him and still he had the nerve to call you names, even though you were no longer his and you could do it with whoever you wanted—, was felt when in the first phase he withdrew a little and in continuation re-entering you as suddenly as the first time, with more force that time.

he continued to hit the place where you needed him the most, while the hand around your neck tightened his fingers around it from time to time, and the other hand made circles over your sensitive spot.

"i'm close—", you said between moans, but he was quick to come back hungrily on your lips, increasing the speed with which his hand moved.

continuing to move his hips into you with the same intensity, feeling you tighten around him, he pulled away from the kiss only to speak, with his forehead against yours, "i know, love, you can let go."

hearing his words, you allowed yourself to forget about everything and feel how you came down from the high place where he had brought you within a few minutes, while you let out unholy sounds, which also sent him, right after you, over the edge.

he got out of you, but he didn't rush to get off of you, letting his head fall into the crook of your neck and inhaling your perfume as you felt yourself full of him.

“i'm starting to think this is becoming some kind of a habit for us,” you said with a weak giggle that made him shiver. "i don't dislike it," then you quickly added to not give him the wrong idea.

he lifted his head to look at you.

"me neither," he said, rushing to kiss you again.

[shiro-luvs-victor]

This is just my impression so far on the MCs of Ikemen Series. I have seen posts about Ikemen MC not having enough spite, dumb, damsel and distress etc etc....and to some point I do agree with it. Even I made a post about MCs being overly positive. But at the same time I feel like this is done on purpose from the writers' part.

Let's just say it, the MCs are not really that relatable even though they try to make it look like that. MCs in these games are very kind-hearted for no reason, overly positive and lack basic common sense. For example, take this scene from Harry's story event:

Harry did mention to her before this that he can detect if a person is lying or not when he makes eye-contact. In the scene mentioned above, a person with common sense can easily tell that Harry lost on purpose. But for some reason Kate thought he lost because she was able deceived him. It is only later that Harry told her and Kate looked genuinely surprised. I don't think Kate is dumb. But I feel like the writers think we players are not that smart enough to distinguish between Harry's lies and truth. It makes me laugh some times.

I just honestly feel like MCs are portrayed this way so that we players could understand the game and its characters better. Like Paimon from genshin, who repeats everything in baby terms so that we could understand what we have to do (even if her screechy noise is annoying). MCs here are played by us, so when male characters has a plan that they don't reveal, MCs try to find out what their plan is so that we could understand. That's it. MCs are here just simplify the story to make us understand the character's better. They'll only ask the male characters what's needed to know right now and not anything extra. If it where a realistic MCs, she would ask more logical questions like:

Is Victor also cursed?

If Crown consists of only 'cursed' people and Victor went around to search these people, are there any 'cursed' people out there who rejected his request?

More questions on their abilities like: Can Harry still detect lies if someone closes their eye? Can Elbert trigger sad memories if a person doesn't have a sad memory? etc etc...

But we don't see Kate asking these questions.

I feel like the reason why we feel sometimes frustrated when MCs act in a certain way is because these MCs are not at all realistic. I'll never believe that someone with common sense did not try to run away after watching a murder happen. I'll never believe that someone with common sense falling into easy traps. Like this one scene from Silvio's story where, Silvio's daddy visits Rhodolite because his lost son is found and he also wants to know if Rhodolite King is dead blah blah blah...you guys know that story (I assume). Emma has to choose the next King without Silvio's dad knowing and they wait for Sariel's call. A servant comes to Emma's room to call both her and Rio. This servant itself is sus because Emma clearly states that she hasn't seen that servant before. When I read this, I immediately knew it was red flag. But even so, Emma and Rio ignores the red flag and goes with the servant and what do you know? They get kidnapped. The scene was very predictable. But it's so frustrating because, realistically speaking I think normal people would feel a little bit suspicious about the person given the situation. Maybe even question the servant. That's why I'm saying...I do feel MCs are not realistic enough. I don't think anyone is overly-kindhearted to the point that they would accept insults from the male leads and be like "I'm going to prove myself to you!". Normal people would just be like "fuck off!" and won't listen to their insults. No one is so dumb it fall into easy traps and no normal person is like "I will work hard to get to know them better." Majority of the people are way smarter and way selfish (not in a bad way though!). Many people have attitude, not everyone are kind to strangers. That's why MCs are not realistic, so there is no use in comparing MC to your personality or your intelligence. They are just tools for explaining the story in a simplified way and moving the plot forward. Because like I said, if Emma and Rio didn't go with the servant and get kidnapped, Silvio's story wouldn't move forward.

That's all. This no hate, this is just how I felt after reading quite amount of stories both in-game and on tumblr. MC's don't have much background because the writers don't really put too much thought about their personality. MCs are basically last on their lists. They just make sure that she's an adult, working woman (doing some odd jobs like a flowershop lady or something, because I've never seen a CEO MC), and they are very kind for some reason. They don't have family (except for Emma), they don't have a story, they don't have anything that impacts their personality. At least it would have been nice to see why a MC is so kind-hearted would be nice. But otome games' main selling points are the male leads. The male leads falls for MC's purity in their dark world.

[the-eeveekins]

Prospera: my more serious thoughts on her and her character.

Like Suletta, I fully support Prospera's actions. You can't show me the Prologue where her whole life is violently taken from her and NOT expect me to root for her. She's just as much a victim of Delling’s actions and the systemic oppression of Earthians as many of the other characters in the show. I feel like a lot of people who don't empathize or sympathize with her either haven't seen the Prologue or haven't watched it since it was released nearly a year ago.

Yes, she did terrible things along the way, especially to Suletta, Eri and Miorine; but Suletta affirmed her choice of trying to help Eri over revenge (and arguably, affirmed her very existence in the process), Eri agreed with Suletta's choice, and even Miorine was willing to accept her as family if it was the decision of her fiancée. Fixing those mistakes will take time, years even, and who knows if Miorine especially will ever forgive her, but she has that time and she has that chance. I love that the show gave her a second chance at the life she was robbed of and a chance to make amends and fix her mistakes. Most shows would have killed her outright or gone with the Redemption Equals Death trope. Characters like her, especially female characters, almost never get that chance.

And, personally speaking, the scene where Suletta pulls her into the data storm is one of my favorites in the show. She gets to speak with the memories of her colleagues and Nadim, and express her guilt for deciding to focus on Eri's future at the expense of avenging them, only for Suletta and Eri to affirm her choice and tell her it's time to move forward. The mask breaks, Prospera "dies" and Elnora finally gets to hold Eri again and apologize to both of her daughters. It's one of the most cathartic moments in the show, a perfect conclusion to the Mercury family story and it brings me to tears every time.

I know not everyone is thrilled by Suletta's acceptance of her mom after everything she did to her, but I think it's highly appropriate: she loves people unconditionally more than anyone, understands Elnora did what she did from a place of love and selfishly wants to be with her whole family, mistakes and all. And again: Elnora is as much a victim in this show as anyone else. And even if Suletta accepted her mother, it's not like G-Witch forgave every awful parent of their sins: as I mentioned here, Delling may have surived, but his power to oppress is gone, he's under investigation for his crimes and by all accounts he's no longer a part of Miorine's life. We never see her forgive her father for what he did, and to be honest, I don't think she ever does. It's a hand she only extenda to Prospera because of her selfless love for Suletta.

And that brings us to one of my major issues surrounding Prospera: the difference in how certain parts of the fandom treat Prospera and Delling. The greatest trick Delling ever played was being a little nicer to his daughter before falling into a coma for half the show. Suddenly so many people forgot all he'd done and were willing to forgive his past actions and offer him up for redemption, all while condemning Prospera to death for her actions and claiming she was unredeemable.

It just reeks of the usual fandom sexism with it's double standards towards male and female characters. I just found the idea that Delling was redeemable but Prospera wasn't to be wrong, and find it especially frustrating the way people still tend to focus on Prospera's wrongs while ignoring Delling's.

Still, I think she's an amazing character, one of my favorites of all time. I'm so glad the show stuck the landing on her ending, not only giving her a chance to attone for her mistakes, but also giving her back the peaceful family life cruelly taken from her in the past. Mending her relationship with Suletta, Eri and Miorine will not be easy, it will take time and care and effort, but I believe someday those bonds will be repaired and they will truly become a family with mutual love for each other.

[utilitycaster]

i think it's telling that so many of the responses to imogen's convos with liliana and laudna were 'this is kinda fucked up and i am fascinated by it and am enjoying it' and but the response to THAT was like 'STOP trying to make everything toxic, ugh fandom never should've learned therapy speak'. like. ignoring that's NOT what that is, people are pretty clearly interacting POSITIVELY with these moments but because what they're enjoying is the parts that are messy, that's somehow bad too???

YUP! There are definitely people who use therapy speak inappropriately, including about Imogen and Laudna, and honestly I pretty specifically avoided using the word "toxic" (or "codependent") about their most recent interaction, but like...there is nothing wrong with enjoying the relationship for being messy! A good deal of the people who are calling it toxic or messy are people who support it and enjoy it! A good deal of people who don't particularly like the relationship for being flat and bland and the conflict constantly fizzling out into nothing, myself included, perked up at yesterday's conversation! It was fascinating: Laudna went to comfort Imogen and told her she loved her, and Imogen's response was to say "oh, you love me? well then why did you go running off to Delilah the second we were apart? why did you lie to me a second time [Laudna did not lie to her the first time, which by now Imogen knows]?"

I don't actually think Imogen's opinions re: Delilah are inconsistent - I think she very specifically started becoming uncomfortable after encountering Delilah in the middle of the night in Whitestone (and I think Laura said as much on a 4SD too), and so her previous assertions about digging into their power sources are not hypocritical. However, yeah, I think we should talk about how both of the two big kisses between these characters are specifically Imogen trying to cut off an emotional speech from Laudna - I don't think it is intended as manipulation, but rather coming from a place of profound fear, but that's still something you need to deal with because this is now three pretty significant cases of kicking the can of conflict down the road and it's only snowballing. I think we should talk about how actually maybe it's valid that Imogen, who has had to make a lot of difficult decisions regarding her engagement with Predathos's power and could be risking losing her powers through her actions, is frustrated that Laudna hasn't done the same with Delilah, but neither of them are working it out. Imogen is letting an assassination of her mother go forward - and I agree with her choice - and Laudna hasn't done anything to extricate herself from Delilah in 30 years despite expressing interest early in the campaign. Imogen is about to lose her mother because her mother declared her reliance on a potentially evil power as an inevitability and wouldn't listen to her, and Laudna's now doing the exact same thing.

And on the other hand, again, Laudna hasn't lied to Imogen. Imogen cut off Laudna's angry, hurt, and extremely valid rant about being betrayed by Bor'Dor by asking to kiss her and so Laudna, trying to make Imogen happy, never worked out these feelings and they've just been building up. Laudna can't express her fears to Imogen because Imogen will demonstrably cut her off. If Imogen is disgusted by Delilah, and that's not going away, what does that mean? Like, is the love enough? I don't know? Could be, but not without actually having a means of resolving all of these extremely valid hurt feelings, and they don't have that. And maybe some of us would like to have some resolution, and are getting real tired of the particularly dim children going "uwu let me have my cottagecore stardew valley dream you all are such MEANIES let people like things" which. Again, if the fact that other people want different things from this relationship is genuinely preventing you from liking things, that's entirely your problem, because I like all kinds of things other people dislike. If you cannot stomach any dissent from your personal interpretation and perceive it as an attack, that says a lot of things about you and none of them bode well.

There is a deeply frustrating tendency that is not limited to this fandom, nor to discussion of Imogen and Laudna, to deny that traumatized characters can hurt other people. You see it with some of the dumber discussions of Ludinus that presume he is specifically a survivor of Aeor (valid as a theory, but unconfirmed); his (hypothetical) trauma does not negate how many other people's lives he's ruined. Percy is deeply traumatized but he did still introduce the gun to the world. Fjord is traumatized but had he willingly completed Uk'otoa's unsealing that would have caused untold damage. Astrid is traumatized but she's still done terrible things as a Volstrucker. FCG and Yasha are both traumatized and both were not even in control of their actions when they caused their worst harm, and they both feel terrible about what they've done. I mean, touching on this episode, it is not actually a contradiction to say both "Liliana is traumatized and has been indoctrinated by a cult and is a victim of said cult and genuinely believes she is doing this for Imogen's benefit" and also "Liliana is a fucking shitty mom." These are both true. This is what cycles of abuse and generational trauma look like. This is what that "blorbo-centered morality" is; suddenly when it's your favorite character they can do no wrong and every explanation becomes, instead, an excuse.

I've been talking a lot about the harassment in this fandom and it really is like...look, I don't know if this harassment is coming, from some of those partaking in it, from a personal trauma. I do not want to ascribe shitty behavior to mental illness, because some people are just assholes. But if it is - it doesn't make it okay! If you are lashing out and sending hate because you project a lot of your own trauma onto Imogen or your own relationships to that of Imogen and Laudna and you perceive every bit of criticism as an attack on you, guess what! You're being a fucking asshole by trying to hurt other people and it does not ultimately matter that it might come from a place of your own hurt and you need to stop.

I've been going off about this and related topics all morning and so I do want to step back and say that I believe this is a relatively small group of people with an outsized toxic impact. I do think that many people are enjoying the relationship for its complexity and unhealthy, messy aspects, that most people would love to read more Imogen meta that covers her as a whole, complex person and not as a tee hee just a silly guy girlfailure. But yeah, I think everyone is getting increasingly done with the group of people who throw a tantrum and retreat into the most idiotic See Spot Run-levels of conflict fantasies whenever there's actual grit and friction and mess in the relationship.

[the-sweet-hibiscus]

On the Topic of Christina Strain & SaB

So while browsing the hellscape that is Twitter today, the first thing you see in the Shadow & Bone Fandom, is this exchange between Christina Strain (a producer/writer on the show) and a fan.

And I didn't think this would be necessary to say, but this is EXTREMELY unprofessional on the part of Christina.

But I do want to take the time to look and explain WHY from the perspective of someone who is a professional creative by job description. Christina, openly, speaks about her time as a writer on Shadow and Bone. Which is well within her right, as a creative, many times the appeal of following is for behind the scenes takes, more insight into writing decisions, and generally furthering the interest in a show / property after it has concluded. Especially if the conclusion was incomplete and/or canceled before the full story was told.

So here we have a situation.

The Question:

So the question Merel (the fan) asked was about the obvious sidelining of Alina Starkov, our main character. It's not an opinion that Alina was sidelined, it's been observed numerous times, most recently in this collider article talking about / reviewing the blatant reduction of character for Alina.

Merel's question, originally was about S3. Specifically, where was Alina, was there ever a plan for her? Originally, Christina just said, there was nothing written for Alina, and she had a vague idea of a separate storyline.

To which, Merel responded with the wide-spread rumor that Six of Crows, had been rejected by Netflix three times. For reasons not relevant — that rumor isn't true. But she also expressed frustration, as since the announcement of the show's cancelation, Christina specifically has given an overwhelming amount of attention and care to Six of Crows, while not seeming to have any real passion for the Shadow and Bone property or it's characters. Christina's response starts out professional. She clarifies, Six of Crows was not rejected (aka the rumor wasn't true) and that she didn't have control over that decision, which is true.

Where Christina stops being professional, is the other half of her response.

The Response

Here is where so many people take offense, and find issue. Christina, openly shames the Darklina ship. Which isn't inherently bad, no one is forced to like a ship, however. It had NOTHING to do with the question at hand. Just because a fan likes a certain dynamic, of a ship that at one point was canon, and likes to explore that, doesn't mean that they don't know what they're talking about when they're just asking about the future of a character. Merel didn't ask "Oh, how are you going to make this darklina?" She didn't even mention the ship. The only reason Christina even knew about Merel's shipping preference is because she either went on Merel's page or looked at the "Relevant People" column on Twitter for Desktop.

And now we venture into a much worse territory.

Bullying

Let's take a look at the power dynamic in this exchange.

Christina has 9.58K Followers on Twitter. Merel has 114.

Christina is a producer/writer on the show. Merel is a fan.

Christina has a self-appointed responsibility to promote the petition to bring her show back. Merel is a part of the larger community who supported the show. Christina is 42 years old. Merel is 19.

Instead of, ignoring the second response. Or even just clarifying the rumor and moving on, Christina decides that it'd be best to expose this account to harassment from her much larger base. Who responded in kind.

What was the reason? Truly?

Fans are supposed to only engage with a show if it matches how you specifically view it? They can't have questions, or criticisms, or thoughts? Because what was so mean about Merel's statement? What was insulting that Christina had to bring in shit that had nothing to do with the conversation? The rumor accusation? Is that worth getting attacked over? Is that worth attacking over?

The Correct Response

Move on.

No one would have an issue if the conversation ended a tweet earlier. Christina has over 9K followers, anyone could reasonably assume she was simply inundated with responses and couldn't/wouldn't respond further. Her first statement, was fine. To book fans, it may be frustrating, especially if they believed the rumor, but it was still a calm-ish response.

Merel could've been frustrated and that would've been the end of it. Instead, Christina decided her best course of action was to attack a fan, just because she enjoyed the same ship dynamic as people who were rude to her before. Decided to belittle that fan's interest in her show, bc she didn't like the way that fan interacted with them.

It's childish. It's gross. It's lashing out at someone b/c they want to know why the main character wasn't paid attention to in their show.

Anyway, it's clear Christina has a definitive disdain for the darklina fans of Shadow and Bone. It's clear she doesn't respect the people who support her show — unless they just unconditionally praise it. So that's it then. A disappointing end to Shadow and Bone, and an even more disappointing showing of character from the producers/writers.

[mi-rae07]

Kim Hongjoong : You and Her (Part 1/2)

Pairing : Kim Hong-Joong (Ateez) and named character (Lee Hana)

___________________

Synopsis : Hongjoong and Hana are new parents, which come with a lot of new challenges with the new baby. And in between facing all of that, Hongjoong forgets about the person who gave him his daughter in the first place, his attention shifts to Hannie when his wife needed him most. And now she’s reached her breaking point. What will happen? Especially when hongjoong has his own problems.

___________________

A/n : does anyone want a part 2☝️

____________________

Hongjoong entered their house after a long day at work, having left at 8 and the time now being 2am. Except as soon as hongjoong closed the door behind him the sounds of a baby wailing and crying hit his ears, causing hongjoong to quickly throw his bag away as he rushed towards his newborn baby's nursery. But just as he was about to climb the steps he paused in front of the living room, realizing his wife was sitting on the sofa, blank eyed as if she wasn't hearing anything.

If she was here, who was taking care of their daughter?

Hongjoong : hana?

Hana flinched at the sound, looking at hongjoong as a tired smile fell on her face. A smile, did she not hear her daughter crying?

Hana : you're back. The dinner-

Hongjoong : hana, she's crying.

Hana looked back straight, her expression once again blank as she said

Hana : she's always crying.

Hongjoong : why are you here then? You should be with her, trying to get her to sleep-

Hana : well you're home now anyway, you go do it.

Hongjoong frowned at her words, astonished. She had never been like this.

Hongjoong : what? Look, it's not as if I have a problem with looking after my own daughter but you just…you seem so unbothered, hana.

Hana : I am unbothered, she's crying for the most useless of things. One time it's for her toy, the next it's because of the light, and then it's because her dress is slightly folded.

Hongjoong scoffed, walking closer to hana as he tried ignoring his daughter's cries for a few minutes. Because this was more important, because what was hana saying?

Hongjoong : hana, she is not even a year old, what do you expect from her?

Hana : to stay quiet for at least an hour? So that I can rest? Sleep? Eat?

Now he was angry, she was treating their daughter like a dog.

Hongjoong : hana! What is wrong with you? This is literally the only thing you have to do, take care of the baby. Why can't you do even that without complaining like this?

Hana looked at hongjoong with angry eyes, standing up as she said

Hana : you think it's that easy? To look after a baby 24/7?

Hongjoong : no one told you any of this would be easy, hana. But I go to work everyday, working my ass off to provide for the both of you. And then I come back home and take care of the baby and the housework. If I can do all of that, why can't you just stop the baby from crying instead of lazing around like this?

Hana : this is exactly what I expected you to do, disvalue all that I do once we have that baby.

Hongjoong : all that you do? What exactly is it that you're doing, huh? You quit work, you don't talk to me anymore, you're always shut off and depressed, not a single smile to be seen in your face ever, you won’t talk to you friends either and now you won't even look after our daughter?

Hana was getting frustrated even more now, did he not get it? Did he not fucking understand?

Hana : you think I'm doing all this because I want to? I want to talk to my friends as well, hongjoong! I want to go out with them as well! I want to be happy as well, I want to wear the dresses I like as well but I fucking can't! why? WHY? BECAUSE I JUST HAD A FUCKING BABY, OKAY?

Hongjoong looked away, his hands on his hips as he said

Hongjoong : everyone has babies, hana-

Hana : WELL I DON'T CARE ABOUT EVERYONE ELSE HONGJOONG, I'M TALKING ABOUT ME NOW, AREN'T I? SO STOP DRAGGING OTHER PEOPLE IN HERE! STOP DISVALUING MY WORK AND CALLING ME FUCKING LAZY WHEN YOU WANTED THIS CHILD IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Hana had never screamed at him like this before, he could see the tears in her eyes. She was really hurt.

Hongjoong : hana-

Hana : I QUIT MY JOB BECAUSE I HAD TO TAKE CARE OF OUR CHILD! I'm not talking to you because I'm tired from having to take care of the baby all the time! I'm not going out with my friends because I have to keep feeding our daughter! And I can't even wear whatever I want because my body looks like a fucking joke!

Hongjoong paused, staring at hana as a tear rolled down her eyes. It broke him apart. Hana smiled as she said brokenly

Hana : good job being the best husband and father ever, hongjoong. Good job going to work everyday and then coming back home and doing even more work. But I'm sorry I can't do the same, I'm sorry I have failed you, our daughter and our family.

Hana walked away, climbing up the stairs as she headed towards her daughter's nursery. Hongjoong bit his lip, plopping down on the sofa as his head fell against his hands.

If his wife had had to say all of this to him, crying and screaming, then he had failed as a husband too.

______________________________

Hana : shh shh, mama's here.

Hana let out a breath as she picked her daughter up, cradling her closer to herself as she let hannie have her milk. Hana's breasts had already been sore from all the feeding she had done throughout this day and the day before. But it wasn't like she had a choice, was it? She loved her daughter, and these were sacrifices she had to make.

Hana looked at the mirror in front of her, her once bright brown eyes now having dark eyebags underneath them. They had lost all it's glow, and so had her skin. It was now filled with small acne and scars from her daughter's fusses, the skin all dry and dull. She had gained weight, and that was the worst of them all. She no longer fit in her favourite dresses and she hated it. But even then, when she'd see the small smiles on her daughter's faces here and there, she felt like maybe it was all worth it.

Hana leaned back against the bed with a tired sigh, closing her eyes as she held her daughter closer to her protectively before whispering

Hana : mama loves you hannie, mama loves you a lot. Please forgive her.

___________________________

Hongjoong had just finished making breakfast when he heard hana walk down the stairs with hannie, her small gurgles reaching hongjoong's ears as he rushed to where hana was now standing, staring blankly at him.

Hongjoong : give her to me.

Hana looked at the pancakes that were kept on the table as she said

Hana : it's only 7.

Hongjoong : and you're already awake, aren't you?

Hana : because she is.

Hongjoong sighed, taking hannie from hana's hold as he said to her

Hongjoong : come eat the pancakes, I've made it just the way you like it.

Before hana could say anything more hongjoong led her to the dining table, making her sit on the chair as he cut a piece of the pancake before holding it in front of hana's mouth

Hongjoong : say ah.

Hana looked at hannie who seemed to be busy playing with hongjoong's hair as she opened her mouth. The pancakes tasted amazing, especially when hannie wasn't ripping hair out of her scalp.

Hana : hongjoong, what are you trying to do?

Hongjoong : feed you, of course.

Hana : why?

Hongjoong : can't a husband feed his wife?

Hana : well you haven't been a husband to me for so long, only a father to hannie. Why do you suddenly change?

Hongjoong stared at hana with hurt eyes, her taking hannie away from hongjoong before seating her on hana's lap as she said nonchalantly

Hana : go and get ready for work, hongjoong. You'll be late.

_____________________

Hongjoong came back early from work that day with flowers in one hand and a toy in the other, to see hana watching tv with hannie lying fast asleep in her arms. Hana did not even turn to look as hongjoong walked up to them with a tired smile, holding the boquet out for hana as he said

Hongjoong : I bought them for you, since you like roses.

Hana : put them in the vase, thank you.

She had never sounded so cold, or was it that hongjoong hadn't noticed?

Hongjoong : hana are you…are you not going to even look at it?

Hana could hear the hurt in hongjoong's voice, so she turned to look at the flowers for a second before turning back to face the tv as she said

Hana : happy now?

Hongjoong : happy? Do you really think I could be happy when the one person I love ignores me and pretends as if I don't even exist to her? My happiness is you, hana, and you I do not seem to have anymore.

Hana scoffed as she said

Hana : so it's my fault again now.

Hongjoong : what, that's not what I meant-

Hana : I did not have you when I needed you either, hongjoong. Sure, you were with hannie all the time, you would put her to sleep, feed her, change her diapers, yes. What about me then? Did you care whether I slept? Whether I ate? Did you even ask me how I was, how I felt? I needed you too, hongjoong, and I didn't have you.

Hana stood up as she realized hannie had started crying by now, snatching the roses from a teary eyed hongjoong as she said, looking straight into his eyes

Hana : these stupid flowers will not make that all okay, it will not give me what I lost, the husband I lost.

Hana walked away from hongjoong, throwing the flowers onto an empty vase nonchalantly before climbing up the stairs to the nursery. Hongjoong let out a shaky breath as tears rolled down his cheek, his hands that held the toy trembling in his fist.

He really had failed as a husband.

_______________________

Hana stepped out of the nursery hours later after having finally put hannie to sleep, her eyes tired and her body sore. Hana paused on her tracks as she saw hongjoong sitting with his back against the wall on the floor, his eyes closed. Was he sitting outside on the floor for this long? He hadn't even changed out of his work clothes.

Hana leaned down as she patted hongjoong's arm in order to wake him up as he jumped awake, almost scaring hana as well.

Hana : what are you doing on the floor?

Hongjoong blinked at hana in part confusion as he slowly said

Hongjoong : I was…waiting for you?

Hana sighed, standing up as she said

Hana : don't do it again, it's unnecessary.

Hana started walking towards their bedroom as hongjoong quickly stood up too, following her as he said

Hongjoong : I'm sorry, sorry for not noticing you. I was just too stuck up on our daughter, I wanted to make sure hannie was fine-

Hana : so you forgot about me, yes?

Hongjoong : hana please, you know I love you.

Hana : knowing isn't enough when your husband doesn't even talk to you anymore about matters other than your daughter, hongjoong.

Hana opened the door to their room as she stepped inside, getting on the bed as hongjoong said

Hongjoong : I know I've been a bad husband but you haven't…you could never lose me, hana. I still love you, I always will. And I'm trying to be better, I'm trying to be what I once was.

Hana : great.

Hana laid back on the bed, pulling the blankets over her as hongjoong let out a breath, looking at the floor before saying

Hongjoong : it's just been so hard for me too, hana. Of course, not as much as it could've been for you. But I-I just didn't know how to manage time with hannie and work, and you. It got messed up, but I won't let it happen again. I promise.

Hongjoong paused for a minute, realizing he wasn't going to get any response. He sighed, turning around and was about to leave when a voice interrupted him

Hana : are you going to run away again, like a coward?

Hongjoong paused, realizing what she meant by that. It was the same thing hana had said when hongjoong had first asked her out back in college, when hongjoong was about to leave since hana had given him no response. Just a look.

And now she was giving him the same look, making hongjoong immediately cry as sobs filled the room.

Hana : oh, joong.

Hana quickly got up from the bed, rushing towards hongjoong as she hugged him tight. Hongjoong buried his head on her shoulders as he weeped like a baby, his arms around hana's waist tight, as if he was scared of letting go.

Hana : I won't leave you, hongjoong.

Hongjoong : I thought…I thought you were going to.

Hana chuckled as she ran her hand along his hair before whispering

Hana : how could I ever, you're the father of my daughter.

Hongjoong : I love you, I love you so much I swear I've never not loved you my entire life.

Hongjoong paused as he heard nothing in return, opening his eyes as he asked

Hongjoong : hana? You…you love me too, right?

There was no response. Hongjoong pulled back, realizing that hana was crumbling into dust in front of his own eyes. Hongjoong's eyes widened as he said in panic and fear

Hongjoong : hana! Hana no, no you can't leave me. HANA!

??? : HONGJOONG WAKE UP!

Hongjoong gasped as he opened his eyes, immediately holding onto whatever was in front of him as he panted heavily.

Hana : it was just a nightmare, shh.

Hongjoong let out a whimper as he looked at hana who was kneeling in front of him, her face part worried. Hongjoong felt relief rush all over him as he realized he was still outside hannie's nursery, the time 3am now.

Hongjoong : you're…you're here.

Hana : where else would I be?

Hongjoong stared at hana, his eyes blurry from the tears

Hongjoong : hana are you-are you going to leave me?

Hana frowned, confusion filling her eyes as she asked

Hana : what are you-

Hongjoong : hana please don't leave me. I have…I have no one but you and hannie. You know my parents left me because I was a bad son, right? Are you-are you going to leave me because I'm a bad husband too now? And when hannie realizes I'm a bad…bad father she's going to leave me as well and I'll be all alone again. Oh, I-I-

Hana : hongjoong no.

Hana looked at hongjoong as she realized he was breathing even faster now, sweat forming on his forehead. He was going to that headspace again, and it hadn't happened for years now. For hongjoong to have brought up his parents who had died in an accident when hongjoong was just 9, this was terrible.

Hongjoong : I'm so sorry, I'm so so sorry please don't go away from me. I know I'm a bad-

Hongjoong cut himself off as hana brought his head towards her chest, wrapping an arm around his shoulder as hongjoong broke into loud sobs in her arms, his body still quivering and sweaty against hers.

Hana : you're not a bad anything, joong. Shush.

Hongjoong clutched hana's shirt in his hands as he said

Hongjoong : you told me you didn't love me, you disappeared when I told you you loved me. I couldn't…I couldn't save you this is all my fault.

Hana frowned, she had never said that. He was talking about the nightmare he had just had, it was probably triggered by the fact that he lived with the guilt of not having saved his parents, something he couldn't have possibly done at that young age.

Hana : hongjoong-ah, I never did all that. It was just a nightmare, I told you. I'm right here, I'm not leaving you-

Hongjoong : you said that before too! But you still left!

Hana pressed her lips together as hongjoong cried harder against her chest, her own eyes filling with tears at how broken he sounded. He was having one of his episodes.

Hana : hongjoong, that wasn't me okay? Look, look at me.

Hongjoong shook his head, holding hana tighter as he said

Hongjoong : no no you're going to leave me again. No. no I can't-

Hana forcefully pulled hongjoong away from her as she held his wet cheeks, wiping his tears before saying

Hana : see? I'm right here, I'm not going anywhere. I won't leave you I promise, hongjoong. And neither will hannie, okay? She's our daughter, your daughter. She will always love you.

Hongjoong stared at hana with tears flowing down still, his lips trembling as he asked in a low voice

Hongjoong : you-you won't?

Hana : never, I promised didn't I? On our wedding day?

Hongjoong closed his eyes as hana kissed his cheek, slowly rubbing his back to calm him down as she whispered

Hana : you're my entire world, I couldn't leave you even if I wanted to.

____________________________

[mswyrr]

I love the comparisons and contrasts between Everlark and Snowbaird (edit: I wrote a meta here discussing some of what I see there and Rachel has drawn the comparison too) because there is no "safe" purely "wholesome" love. It doesn't exist.

I genuinely hate that fandom thinks there's such a thing as a pure ship. Or that we can or should take art and cut it into neat little pieces, use stories to "teach girls" (where girls are presumed to be the most ignorant and worthless of creatures, incapable of the full experience of what it means to be human, but also the only ones responsible for anything bad that happens, creatures so responsible that all tragedies that befall them are their own fault, their deepest shame) how to make love safe. It's a lie. Loving is about people, and people are never pure. Everything good we give each other is hard won with courage in the face of fear.

It is inherently dangerous because humans are. And if you're lucky, you give yourself to someone who meets that trust and courage with their own. And if you're not lucky, it hurts. And there's no way to control it. There's no way to be smart enough or pure enough or notice the right "red flags" (irl abusers are good at hiding and perfectly lovely people can become ill or addicted or just *change* on you). You can be lucky for a time and someone can still change.

Because you cannot control someone else, just love them.

And--here is the great part--it was that very lack of control that drove Coriolanus to throw love away! He was so afraid of what an inherently terrifying thing it is, how it is giving yourself away without guarantees, that he brought that fear down on them. He became the traitor he was so terrified that Lucy Gray might be. He destroyed something infinitely precious because he couldn't live with what a sublime wonder and terror it is to give yourself away with open hands. Love is never pure. It is so much better than that. It is...

I write all kinds of ships and like all kinds of love stories and see no contradiction because even the happiest ones are that too. I am endlessly frustrated by the way Gothic romance and tragic romance and other romances that explore the terror and darker side of that are pathologized because it makes the more joyful, happy endings dishonest. Love is risk, touching the sublime, allowing yourself to be remade.

Every joy we find in life--every single one, not just in romance, but anywhere--is like making love in the lap of death. In the midst of life we are in death; in the midst of death we are in life. The only thing worse than the fear of giving yourself away (in all the ways we can seek intimacy, not only romance) is the truest death, the death of never opening yourself up to begin with, never letting yourself be changed and moved and remade by another. And if we need an object lesson in that, here we've got Coriolanus Snow!

He's not an object lesson in "bad boyfriends." Lucy Gray made good choices from her pov! (I'm writing a separate meta on this). Nothing that happened was her fault! She is not an object lesson, she's a brave, loving girl who experienced a tragedy. She was betrayed. She's a character of the kind of folk ballads Collins was drawing on, which are actually more honest about people and more compassionate toward women who experience tragedy and loss than a rigidly US-centric, individualist, inherently victim blaming, just world fallacy view of control and "teaching girls good lessons." You can drain all the pleasure and joy out of life in the effort to control things and keep someone from being able to hurt you and still not really be safe, just be dead inside - like Coriolanus did.

The only way to truly possess someone is to destroy them and then you don't actually possess them at all! They're gone. The person you wanted to keep you've driven away. And the only way to truly be safe and in control is to kill your own heart. So what are you even protecting?

There is no shame in being Lucy Gray. The shame is in letting fear and the need for control own us like Coriolanus.

As someone who feels torn often in fandom because I ship both love stories that get categorized as "wholesome" and "problematic," the fact that Collins wrote both one of my favorite ships ever that gets categorized (and, I think, often massively simplified) into "wholesome" AND another "problematic" one that IMO is a gorgeous object lesson in why the whole idea of this binary is bullshit--and why love stories can and should explore the terror of being alive and living as well as the joy and genres like Gothic and tragedy are a beautiful part of the tapestry of narratives exploring love and living as a human in fiction--and we should very much NOT be Coriolanus?

I love her. I want to kiss her hand.

[itsclydebitches]

CLYDE. I was thinking about the RWBY vs Ace Ops fight again because it's one my least favourite moments in the entire show and I realised that Qrow/Clover/Robyn weren't part of the conversation prior, nor were they ever acknowledged. Nothing of the effect that "Hey, maybe we should wait for Qrow/Robyn/Clover's opinion on this plan before moving onwards, considering their experience and leadership skills?" before being shut down that time is of the essence and they can't wait for them. It just feels illogical to have the Ace Ops leader, Mantle's primary representative and the leader of the Happy Huntresses and one of James' closest allies be completely absence from one the most impactful turning points of the Volume. It feels they were either purposely left out arbitrarily for the sake of two poorly conceived fights or the writers just forgot...which wouldn't be the first time. This show is very...frustrating to say the least.

YEAH. The other day I was thinking about RWBY and ludonarrative dissonance in video games. Specifically, the number of action/adventure games I've played that have a, "OMG COMPLETE THIS MISSION IMMEDIATELY TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE SOMEONE IS GONNA DIE!!" narrative paired with a "Look at all these fun side quests populating the map, you should totally spend a month of in-game time leisurely exploring them" gameplay. RWBY feels similar to me (minus the interactive elements, obviously). The narrative continually pushes the urgency of the situation, but what the characters do don't align with that. Waiting in the mansion is the classic, go-to example of this, but it's also seen in questions like, "If the group is so concerned with the safety of the Relic why don't they.... put it in the vault?" and "If Qrow needs to speak to Ironwood so badly, why doesn't he just... go to Ironwood in handcuffs rather than starting a fight that, unforeseen airship crash or not, is gonna SUPER delay him getting there." Importantly, these moments go beyond the characters simply making impulsive, fallible, human decisions. It always feels like the writers haven't thought through the situation, or are so focused on one (badly chosen) outcome that they'll ignore all logic to get there.

So, same idea with this fight. I completely understand Ironwood's position because there is a clear line of logic here. Salem is about to attack, the group has consistently lied/undermined him, ergo he is removing a potential threat by locking them up until this battle/escape is complete. No one has to agree with him, but I think the reasoning makes sense both in general and for his specific character. (Which is also one of the reasons why I think some fans are willing to hear consider his side: his writing, however messy in other places, is leagues beyond the group's, particularly in the first half of the Atlas arc.) The girls though? They're all over the place. They don't want secrets but they're going to keep them from Ironwood. But they're also going to spill them all to Robyn, someone they don't know and shouldn't trust. They want to save everyone but have no idea how and can't/won't troubleshoot an answer. They're determined to unite the people but are simultaneously determined to solve their problems with a fight. They start said fight and then Ruby immediately tries to talk her way out of it again. And, as you say, they ignore that unity/experience/help available to them by not looping the others in because, supposedly, there's just no time... but then we have long scenes where they just sit around the mansion, tearfully bemoaning the fact that they don't know what to do and getting angry that no one has magically shown up to help.

I can EASILY picture a better-if-not-perfect scenario where the girls' decisions in that fight actually follow their proclaimed intentions AND the not-actually-very-critical timeline they have (because remember, even after all this Salem just sits there for an extended time.) What if Ruby ordered the team to let themselves get arrested and then we got a cool break out of jail scene? (I mean... Ruby blasts through Ironwood's steel doors that are meant to keep people in + they sneak into Atlas HQ. Clearly this would not have been difficult for them.) What if they ran into Qrow and Robyn while in their cells? Or what if they escaped, realized they needed their uncle, and started a help Mantle/find Qrow dual mission? What if instead of broadcasting a horrifying and near incomprehensible message to the whole world, they spoke to all their allies in Atlas about the plan they'd come up with, calling them together? Maybe coded so Cinder wouldn't understand. Maybe bluntly honest like a gauntlet throw-down: we know you're here, but we're ready for you this time.

Instead Ruby forgets she exists...

There are just SO many things you can do with that fight/the aftermath that don't completely undermine the themes, the tension, the proclaimed desires, and the narrative expectations. If there has to be a battle of ally vs. ally when Salem is on her way and half our villains are roaming the streets (god I can't emphasize that enough), why is everyone with the wrong person? Why isn't Robyn fighting the Ace Ops, her political enemy long before the girls showed up? Why isn't Qrow fighting Ironwood, the guy he (stupidly) blames for Clover's death? Why isn't Clover with his team? Why isn't Ruby facing Salem? Why the hell would you have Qrow team up with Tyrian?

As a side note, I've seen a resurgence of discussion about Ruby's breakdown in Volume 9 and everything above re-emphasizes for me just how much she HAS demanded this power and responsibility. "Hey, maybe we should wait for Qrow/Robyn/Clover's opinion on this plan before moving onwards, considering their experience and leadership skills?" is one of MANY considerations when weighing the question of whether Ruby has truly been burdened with the unwanted expectations of others... because they've never been unwanted and she has never down a thing to lessen that burden. She doesn't wait. She doesn't ask. She doesn't lean on others' experience and leadership. And this goes all the way back to Ruby responding, "Yes, I want to attend Beacon and take on all the responsibilities of that despite not being old enough," but there is also a LOT in the Atlas arc - right before her Volume 9 breakdown, literal hours in-world - where Ruby stood her ground and said, "No, we're doing this my way and my team, whether they've disagreed with this decision, or suggested this course of action in the first place, will ultimately follow me because I am the leader." She told Qrow to stand down and let her continue fighting Cordovin. She made the decision to lie to Ironwood and talked the others out of coming clean. She made the call to attack the Ace Ops instead of submitting to arrest. Using the Relic and dropping Atlas was a group suggestion, but Ruby sanctioned it. Based on literally 8 Volumes of content, if anyone HAD said no to her Ruby would not have listened to them. That is an overt, consistent characterization of hers.

And then Volume 9 expects me to feel bad because she's going, "Everyone expects me to take the lead"??? Like sure, in a very general, "That's indeed stressful no matter who's at the helm" sense, but Ruby has spent years at this point loudly yelling, "I'M THE PERSON YOU SHOULD LOOK TO AND I'LL FIX IT. IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY PLAN I'LL FIGHT YOU :)" Not roping Qrow and the others in is a part of all that. Not overtly on screen - we don't have a scene where Ruby goes, "We don't need to talk to them" - but the story doesn't think their input is important. We get the closeup on her smiling face when she thinks of using the Relic and then the others just inform Winter of what is happening when she happens to call. Major decisions in RWBY have often been collaborative when it comes to suggestions, but the final call is always Ruby. Whether we're talking about "This is my fight too!" when Qrow warns her to stay back, or using the Lamp's question when Ozpin is begging her not to, or shrugging off Yang's concern that she lied to Ironwood, or telling the whole damn world about Salem when numerous people with more experience than her have said, "That's a terrible idea" for generations, Ruby forcibly takes the lead and will not back down no matter who is asking that of her, or how they're asking. In fact, I'd say that is the most OVERT and CONSISTENT way in which she displays agency in this show (which, ugh).

[pocketgalaxies]

what did you mean about laudna and ashton driving you nuts?

mmmmm. dangerous territory! for me, i mean. to indulge the side of me that don't give a fu about–

it's pretty interesting how this ep turned out to be a direct comparison between laudna and ashton and how they discover and come to terms with the idea that there is an option for them to ostensibly destroy themselves in the name of protecting/helping/saving the rest of the party

a few ppl have already discussed this with far more thought and nuance than i'm willing to put into words right now but something something both of them taking this as an opportunity to Be Useful and Contribute to the cause, blind or perhaps willingly ignorant to the fact that these people love them for who they are and that they don't need to Do Something in order to be loved - in fact, losing them is actually a far less acceptable outcome to the party than whatever reward they perceive to be gained from their self-sacrifice. which is all very sad and tragic and juicy and pulls at the heartstrings which i always love. but this is kind of where the similarities end?

laudna follows this with a conversation in which she tells imogen what she would want to happen in rather explicit terms. and when imogen responds by saying she'll do everything in her power to stop it from getting to that point, laudna says "i can accept that." the next morning, they tell the whole group what happened. on the other hand, ashton pulls fearne aside and has their own grave conversation but in more vague terms, at least in the sense that i don't think fearne picked up what they were putting down or at the very least wasn't given the opportunity to really process and respond to what was asked. and then ashton isolated the two of them from the rest of the group to undergo this transformation without their knowledge. all of which drives me nuts! to see the direct comparison in which one is so much more communicative than the other

and i don't think it's fair to say that this is a consequence of the party being poor communicators overall. it's somewhat reminiscent of vax's initial response to scanlan leaving in c1 - we don't know your mother's name because you never talked about it. aka there's a difference between ashton bringing up this desire or plan to hold both shards and everyone brushing it off/not sufficiently exploring it vs. ashton choosing not to ask for their opinions, ideas, or feelings about it because he thinks they won't let him do it. he unilaterally made the decision for everyone, which is the most frustrating part for me. they presume to know what is best for everyone, and they presume to know that this is the only option, despite being surrounded by not only some of the most powerful people on the planet but also the people who care for them the most. which he said himself: nobody will miss me when i die, given that we all die - implicitly saying that if i am the only one who dies, i know you all will miss me. so to me it feels disrespectful to them, because even having acknowledged that they care, he doesn't trust that they might have ideas for a better solution or that they might recognize what this means to him and try to help him survive it. or that they might not want to be "saved" if it means losing him. or that they might like to say goodbye.

i know many people are saying that this is in line for ashton's character, frustrating or not, which i think is true. but it feels stagnant to me. ashton has come a long way in terms of learning to care for these people but they have learned little about being cared for. and while laudna is trying to believe what others say to her (that they love her, that she's important, that she deserves life) with varying degrees of success, to me ashton feels like they have made minimal progress and/or aren't trying to make progress. they refuse to see bells hells for what they so loudly and clearly are - people who love and care for each other, ashton included. and unfortunately, 77 episodes in and coming up on a vastly important mission (the first in a while), this brand of hypocrisy (taliesin's words not mine!) and lack of awareness for the group's feelings in the name of High Risk High Reward is something i have a rather low tolerance for ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

and for the record i've been thinking about this a loooot because i know most of it is colored by my general apathy toward this character. and i understand that a lot of people who love this character are so so fascinated by and invested in what happened. but my apathy toward ashton is something that i've tried to circumvent or logic my way out of a LOT in the past few years and at this point it's kind of an immovable object. and doing mental gymnastics to try and enjoy someone that i simply don't makes everything so much worse! so i don't mean to rain on anyone's parade but these are my thoughts whether i like it or not

tl;dr the end of this ep didn't make me excited, it just kinda made me feel annoyed and crazy. sorry

[alicelufenia]

So yeah had the chance to sleep on it and gonna give my full thoughts on the (unannounced) new dialogue for Minthara when Durge makes the decision to reject [SPOILER]. Gonna keep it under the cut but also read @shoddynomenclature's flashfic about it, it echos a lot of my feelings on the subject.

I think this had the potential to be something that makes her character even more nuanced and interesting by showing an uglier side of herself. Yes she has been abandoned by gods before, and the pain of that can't be understated. So seeing Durge reject Bhaal, to walk away from an inheritance when she was taken from Lolth against her will? Must feel frustrating. Seeing a character work through those emotions and fucking it up could be really good. COULD be.

This one conversation, where she throws everything about her relationship with Durge aside and turns her back on them with just a single non-critical response and no follow up? This ain't it.

I hate to say it, but this addition has all but killed my interest in playing Durge, if this is what it does to her character.

I'd LIKE it if there will be future additions, conversations you can have back at camp after the stress of the day has passed, to ask her what's really going on here. Yeah it WOULD be nice if there were some follow up where we can talk to her about our reasons for rejecting Bhaal, with the option to reconcile. Which could even lead neatly into her post-Orin speech, y'know some of her best writing in the game where she realize that Bhaal is no different than Lolth, or the Absolute.

Or, the chance to refuse to get back together with her after that. The only other way to break up with Minthara currently is cheating, which sucks, whereas having a big ugly argument and deciding "We've both said our peace, and understand each other better now, but we can't be together. Not after all this." THAT'S Really Good.

But unlike others, I have no confidence that any such addition is coming.

Because (if I understand it right) this dialogue was datamined from release, but was always inaccessible until the recent hotfix. So it was easy to ignore, treat it as cut content like the pregnancy plot (which I still don't get and frankly at this point I don't wanna know).

By deciding to make it accessible, Larian has made it clear that they want this to be a part of her character. But unlike this dialogue, there isn't any follow up sitting in datamine waiting to be turned on.

As far as we know, this is it. It's useless to speculate on what they could add (why add to her writing so piecemeal like this anyway?) because they didn't wait until they HAD more, to make this a part of her writing. Hell, it wasn't even worth mentioning in the hotfix notes!

Loving her partner to the degree she's willing to put aside her thirst for power is such a key part of Minthara's character that this dialogue completely abandons. What Larian is saying here is that her love for Durge was just a ruse to entice someone she could control into acquiring power, even at their expense. And if that's Larian's vision for Minthara's character, then why stop with Durge?

Why does she break up with Durge for rejecting Bhaal, but not with Shadowheart for rejecting Shar?

Or Astarion if he remains a spawn?

Why shed all those real tears for Karlach if she'd rather die than return to Avernus?

Why continue to share Tav's bed if they refuse the Astral Tadpole? Why offer no real objection if they destroy the brain, though she's rooting for them to take control of it right up until the moment? Why can she find power enough in the two of them with the Absolute gone to continue their plans for conquest, but Durge refusing to become just like Orin, her tormentor she swore to kill, is a dealbreaker?

If she tells my Tav the bond they share is called alurlssrin, can I even believe her, when she said the same to Durge only to call them stupid for believing in love right after?

Do you see the problem here?

Do you see why people would rather this dialogue not exist, if this is what it does to her character?