#its this issue of characters who will not. even in their own headspace. actually allow themselves to think straightforward thoughts.

[divinekangaroo]

I hate writing the word 'grinning' but keep defauting to it for Jack Nelson

[snickeringdragon]

snick you need to tell me where ok ko wasted its potential and how you think it could be made better i havent seen anyone talk about this damn show in ages Yes im here because of skiddle's tags hi skiddle. hi snick

AHHAHAHAHAHAA. YOU HAVE NO IDEA. YOU HAVE NO IDEA

AHEM.

ok ko spoilers, obviously

...i should put this under a cut

opens up a powerpoint presentation. ok ko is in my opinion overall a very good show. its incredibly funny, charming, and...sometimes well written story wise. unfortunately it has a very very big failing in a very very big plot point

clicks to the next slide. my beautiful son tko.

tko himself is fine. i have no issues with his CHARACTER. i take issue with how his character is treated. tko is, by himself, a child with anger issues, he reacts very poorly to being agitated but like...

he has to be agitated first.

there is not a single example before season 3 where tko like, wrecks shit or whatever without being provoked, in his debut for example, hes just doing his job (albeit begrudgingly) before enid and rad provoke him, and he starts fighting them

however, the show always seems to act like tko is in the wrong, treats him like a villain despite his mostly heroic acts, is he PERFECT? no!! hes a fucking kid with anger issues!! he was locked inside a mind cage!! he doesnt know how to deal with things so he hits them!!! he just. happens to be able to hit things very very hard and with lightning bolts.

another example is the season 1 finale, youre in control. in yic tko. literally doesnt do anything wrong. like im not joking.

in yic tko gets let out to fight boxman jr and like...he does that. he throws boxman jr back to boxmore and then chases him over to boxmore. he does not attack a single hero in this episode. he does not do any damage to the plaza. the worst thing he does in this episode is put ko back in the cage. yet its STILL treated like hes doing something wrong???

another thing about tko. tko wants freedom. he says this outright. being locked inside a literal cage will do that to ya. i want to make sure real quick that we're on the same page here that locking a 6-11 year old boy inside a cage is bad no matter how badly he is at managing his anger issues right. right. okay. tko deserved to be uncaged. and he WAS. except...

when he gets out of the cage in youre in control. thats great and all but...his next appearance, tkos house, hes still upset. he still wants his freedom. its just that instead of being locked in a cage hes locked in a (pretty cool honestly) house. it doesnt matter how nice you make an enclosure, sometimes itll just never work for the animal. and thats what tko is like, he wants out, he wants control over the body, which like. is fucking fair?? im someone who REALLY understands the importance of going outside often, tko really deserves to be allowed outside their headspace. its good for you.

but tko DOESNT. GET THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he shows up. LITERALLY TWICE in season 2 (thats 40 episodes!) and NEITHER of his appearances (tkos house, dark plaza) does he even get to use the body on his own!! its always fused as pko!! he doesnt get a turn!!

and then when season three starts. uh. glances at tko rules. Yeah. The Subconscious. he gets trapped in a dark empty void for [checks notes] about two weeks. minimum.

what im getting at here. is that tko never really left that cage.

okay. im gonna touch on one more tko thing. the FUCKING finale. [furious]

quick recap, in the finale ko and tko have a plot twist moment where "oh hey! ko and tko are the same person actually! and now theyve accepted eachother as the same person and can be happy! hooray!" except like. mko (finale fusion) is just ko

like seriously hes JUST ko. his design? leaning towards kos features. his personality? LITERALLY just ko theres not a hint of tko there. its not the two of them "accepting eachother" or whatever its. its the writers killing off tko.

as well as like. a guy i know pointed this out and i cannot fucking get over it. if they were just going to ""fuse the two"" in the end then WHY. in GODS NAME. is tkos LITERAL FIRST LINE OF DIALOGUE.

"no, not ko."

hes so fucking INSISTENT on correcting people when they call him ko (which is ANOTHER gripe i have with this show. NOBODY calls him his name) and they just. oh yeah hes actually ko lol. LIKE DUDE. THIS ISNT HOW YOU WRITING.

i didnt even mention the issues regarding system stereotypes. i didnt even mention dark plaza since i was focusing on tko. i didnt even. theres so much. i need to stop. now. goodbye.

[comicaurora]

Got told by a friend who also reads the tumblr that my ramblings about Doctor Who are the same as you with ReBoot: "endlessly trying to get people to watch a show just so you can have someone to talk to about it" as they said. and I wanted to ask how you managed to get people into a show they are put off from due to being told about it a lot? also what are your thoughts on Doctor Who and it's 60 year history?

In my experience convincing someone to try a show is like 20% your actual pitch and 80% them. Your pitch can help them decide if they might like the show, but it's up to them to decide if and when they'll actually watch it. They need to be in the right headspace, have the right kind of schedule, nothing else eating their attention, etc. Some people just don't do bingewatching, or they only do bingewatching and need to block out a long weekend to power through. And since I know a lot of artists, sometimes they react to media in unpredictable ways - an episode will hit them just right and suddenly they're off on a tangent and can't even think about watching TV.

It can be a bit frustrating if you really want to talk to them about it right this minute, but honestly I've had some very nice discussions about media with people who haven't tried it, and I've been on the other side of that dynamic as well. I first got into Leverage because my dad used it as an offhand example when describing a frustration he had with longform media (that characters wouldn't be allowed to overcome their personal issues because they made good drama) and it intrigued me at exactly the right time to make me want to check it out. Hell, the entire point of the Detail Diatribe format is one of us rambling an explanation of what makes a piece of media so cool or so annoying to an audience surrogate who hasn't seen it.

I have had luck offering to watch shows with people before - I sat through the first three episodes of The Owl House with a friend recently and she really liked it, though last I checked she hadn't watched more since. I got another one into Transformers Prime by just showing the Starscream episodes which I knew would hit just right. The downside is sometimes I'll be told that they haven't watched more since because they like watching it with me specifically, which is both very sweet and mildly frustrating.

But when it comes to the actual pitch, in my experience it's good to zero in on the parts you personally really liked and the parts you think they specifically would really like. For Doctor Who, I loved the RTD portrayal of 9 and 10 as "lonely gods," and I really liked the angsty character drama, but to get someone into the show I'd probably show something like Blink, which stands on its own with a very simple yet scary monster premise, or Vincent and the Doctor, which highlights the historical angle, is incredibly emotionally impactful and also stands on its own without needing much overarching context or understanding of the show. Neither of these episodes show the parts of the overarching story that I liked, but they work well to communicate the general vibes without needing too much outside context, and they're about as good as the show gets.

As for Doctor Who specifically, I was watching New Who as soon as it started because my parents were so into it (which meant I had nightmares for months about that fucking gas mask zombie two-parter jesus christ) and I really liked the 9 and 10 runs, with a slight preference for 10 because he was a little less grumpy. I stuck through the whole 11 era even though I kinda stopped liking it after Amy and Rory left, and I finally tapped out with 12. The problem was I was watching Sherlock around the same time and was starting to notice Moffat's habit of rewriting all his heroes into deeply unlikable turbochad megageniuses and then turning directly to camera and saying "isn't he wonderful? if you don't agree you're shallow." Because it's a really good sign when you kick off your season by guilt-tripping your audience into watching!

Even that didn't fully wreck it for me, but I remember the exact episode that made me go "yep, think I'm good" - series 8, episode 5, "time heist." The Doctor and friends wake up in a weird room with some strangers and no memory of how they got there, a hooded figure on a screen tells them they all agreed to get their memories wiped to rob a bank and that they all have doohickeys that will instantly "shred them to atoms" that they're supposed to use to avoid capture by the telepathic minotaur thing that'll melt their brains if it catches them. Now, rule number one of character deaths is "if it doesn't leave a body, they're not actually dead," so I figured the doohickeys were teleporters, and the hooded "architect" pulling the strings from a TV screen was probably a recording of one of the memory-wiped characters pulling the strings - most likely The Doctor, what with him being the genius master planner type. These twists aren't particularly complicated. I cannot stress enough how simple "The Doctor orchestrated a mildly clever way to break into a secure vault without the telepathic minotaur thing finding out" is. The part where I tapped out is when The Doctor went off on a long-winded, very impressed monologue about how ingenious this whole scheme was, culminating in the big reveal that the brilliant architect who orchestrated this entire scenario was in fact……… The Doctor. Obviously.

My tolerance for authorial wanking is very low, and while a lengthy monologue by the hero about how smart the hero's plan was is tolerable when the hero is an egotistical genius about to be taken down a few pegs by the narrative, a lengthy monologue by the hero about how smart the writer was for writing the hero's plan is another animal entirely, and it circles around to being frankly insulting when the plan is that basic. "I put on a hood, recorded a video, wiped my own memory and then watched the video. Truly my genius is unparalleled on this or any other world."

So yea, that's about when I called it off, and why I wasn't particularly surprised when Sherlock season 4 turned into an unmitigated tire fire. I watched a few episodes after The Doctor regenerated into 13, but I kinda fell off the wagon after it started looking like none of the characters were getting arcs I was interested in following.

Historically, Doctor Who hasn't been good, it's been fun. I've watched some snippets of Old Who and found them difficult to stick with. It's had an astoundingly widespread cultural impact, but it's one of those things I don't really get, and because the show changes so much from season to season and Doctor to Doctor I think it makes sense that most fans are really only fans of very specific eras and doctors. If the whole show changes out from under you, it makes sense you might not be as invested afterwards - that's just the nature of the game when the franchise has been running since 1963.

[eirikrjs]

Forgive me if this has been asked before but I was hoping to get some elaboration to why you think Desu2 characters are flat. I understand some are, but I feel as though most have quality, or maybe I'm confusing likability with quality. I feel like most of my issues of the game come from lack of intersection with the fate links and main story rather than the characters themselves, but I'd appreciate to hear your thoughts

So, to answer this generally, when I was writing up the character section for the Fan Myths last year, I drew upon what I was taught in school about flat vs. round characters. But one source I found said something that really left me shook, in a way:

It says in its discussion of flat characters (those that are "superficial" and "predictable") versus round characters (those that are "complex" and more like actual people) that Luke Skywalker is a flat character. I weighed it for a bit, contrasting with how Luke makes choices and changes even in the first film, but in the end I couldn't disagree. Luke is styled after mythic heroes who, while they may suffer and grow over the course of their stories, are symbols of human ideals, not realistic human behavior. Luke is likable because we can vicariously live the adventure through him and his relatable and archetypal flaws and quirks, in spite of never being allowed too closely into his headspace and emotional spectrum.

Another Star Wars character that contrasts well with Luke is honestly one of my favorites of the Disney era or anytime before really, because he's so atypical for the franchise. He's not a hero, not worthy of admiration. In fact, he's pathetic and contemptible. And, as we learned last week, he's a creepo stalker guy. Of course, he's Syril Karn from Andor.

His story is far from over, but so far he's all flaws and I've found him fascinating. His might be the narrative developments I look forward to the most every week. And while there are no internal monologues in the show, Andor's effective writing gives Syril more complexity than you would expect for a (seemingly) tertiary Star Wars character. He gets his clothing specially tailored to stand out. He desperately seeks recognition and oversteps boundaries and his own ability to earn it (it so far has always backfired). He's committed to the fascist ideals of the Empire but can only land a faceless and monotonous data processing job and only through his uncle's connections. There are more angles to Syril than these, yet Luke has just one.

I won't say Syril is a round character yet, but he has that potential. Unlike Luke, he's layered and his future is unpredictable. His story may have some logical end points but he's not a hero or protagonist, so there's no guaranteed outcomes. It is odd to think that there may be more depth to Syril than Luke freakin' Skywalker, but Andor also has a far different approach an aims than the main Star Wars movies, so it may be apples and oranges.

But as the above article states, flat characters can still be likeable. I mean, I own maybe three dozen Luke Skywalker action figures so it's fair to say I like that character. The problem with flat characters from pop culture avenues like movies and games is that their superficialities often result in overuse of archetypes. I will say I don't care for a lot of characters in games like Devil Survivor, Persona, or even SMT because I've seen their archetypes before. There often is no attempt at additional complexity because it wouldn't fit the genre and expectations of an established game series or sequel. Hence, these characters become predictable and rote, which affects enjoyment of the work.

And speaking of action figures, pop culture characters reflect them in that they are manufactured to be appealing to their audiences. Even if they are flat and superficial, they still appeal because they are designed to be, from character design to familiar archetype. And that's okay! We might lose our minds if we rejected all but the most complex characters. So if you can buy merch of them, there's a real chance the character isn't all that deep.

[bullworthdrabbles]

Women in Bullworth: Zoe Taylor

TW: discussions of sexual abuse, trauma, CSA, Mr. Burton's ped* bullshit, self-harm, and other not-great stuff.

This one is super long and full of hard stuff to talk about don't read if you are not in the right headspace.

Oh boy, this one is going to be one of the hardest to write for me because I love Zoe and I know so many who love her as well. Then, there’s also a lot of triggering content in her story that needs to be discussed but hits me very close to my chest. This will likely be very long and particularly scathing due to just how frustrating Zoe’s story (or lack thereof) is to me. As a victim of CSA, this particular post is going to be very hard for me to discuss and will take me a long time to fully articulate. I’m sorry for how long it has taken me to write this, but I needed many breaks and to rant to several friends in order not to type all of this in all caps and through various curses.

Before I really discuss the tropes and stereotypes like I usually do I need to discuss the fact that as I write this series I’m seeing the unfortunate pattern arise of Rockstar sloppily using sexual violence against women in their stories without doing their research, taking the time to consider the consequence that happening would have in someone’s life, and just what message they are sending with how they tackle these kinds of stories. Sexual abuse and teachers using their power to take advantage of teens and minors is an unfortunate reality that does happen in high schools. I can understand the idea of wanting to discuss this issue when your game is set in high school where these things can happen, but this type of story is horrific and to do it justice requires a sensitivity Rockstar simply didn’t deliver.

The bully wiki and the game itself states that Zoe was expelled from the school for reporting Mr. Burton's sexual harassment and based on the previous missions involving this disgusting man we know Zoe isn’t the only victim. Does he ever get held accountable? Does he face any sort of punishment despite Jimmy quite literally being a witness and having evidence thumbtacked to his wall of Mr. Burton's disgusting behavior that he made Jimmy also take part in? No, not really, he only gets “fired” at the end of the game, and by “fired” I mean you still see him walking around the school like nothing happened, still saying the same shit and having access to underage girls. If it was just the lack of accountability I could interpret this as Rockstar taking a very bleak but realistic look at the situation. I could maybe think they were trying to show the disgusting truth that victims are almost never believed even with a mountain of evidence stacked against the perpetrator. They could be showing that it takes so much traumatizing bullshit just to try to get justice only for nothing to happen.

However, they messed up this story almost comically which makes me think it was just a cheap way to get her out of the school because they clearly didn't think about how abuse and a violation of someone’s bodily autonomy would impact an actual victim. I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t simply flip a portapotty onto the person who harassed and violated my bodily autonomy. I'm not a generally violent person, but I do think about harming my abuser in incredibly violent ways because of how much bullshit he has put me through. Rockstar never has her dealing with the side-effects and real mental toll this kind of abuse does to a person unless it’s time to make it a funny mission. Turning real horrific trauma into nothing more than a motive for a prank. Then there’s the dialogue of her talking about liking older guys, which I want desperately to believe is Rockstar trying to insinuate that Zoe is coping with her trauma via hypersexuality. Hypersexuality is a common unhealthy coping mechanism for survivors of sexual trauma, they purposely seek out sexual encounters as a way of reclaiming power and bodily autonomy sexually. It can also be seen as self-harm behavior if the survivor is having lots of purposely unprotected sex. But Rockstar clearly didn’t do enough research into sexual trauma responses, much less the basic realities of surviving sexual trauma, so I highly doubt that they even considered this when writing these lines.

Unfortunately, Rockstar was just trying to make her a “not like other girls” stereotype, I bet you thought I wasn’t going to bring it up but sadly I am. Zoe is one of the better-written female characters, but that isn’t really saying much when all the other girls are just cardboard cheap conflict and plot devices. We actually know a lot more about her background than we do the other girls, does it really change that she doesn’t serve much of a plot-significant role? Nope. Does this change the fact that Rockstar once again used sexual trauma as a cheap mission fodder? Nope? Is she allowed to be more than just a health pack, quest giver, and reward? If you think her being the “girl the protagonist gets with at the end” counts maybe, but to me, nope.

This was hard for me to say as it was a hard pill for me to swallow, but literally, all of her traits that separate her from the other girls are just so they could make her a “Tom-boy” and “not like other girls” stereotype. They don’t make her a fully formed unique person where her past, experiences, and traumas actually impact who she is as a person. No, they needed a final love interest for their protagonist so they just took his character traits and story and made some similar dialogue as the dialogue for Gary ( we can all admit there was something going on before the betrayal between those two) then slapped it onto another ginger, now with boobs. The funny thing is she doesn’t even seem that interested with Jimmy until the very end, their whole relationship seems forced and rushed so Rockstar fucked even that up. They clearly had a lot of ideas they wanted to touch on but because of their own unwillingness to take the time to flesh her out instead, we got...well everything I said before.

I’ve said it a thousand times and I will say it again, a lot of these problems could have been avoided. Rockstar could have taken their female characters seriously, could have written them well if that was one of their focuses, but it wasn’t. I love this game and I love a lot of these characters but I feel that even if this game provided me years' worth of comfort and entertainment, it should still be called out for its issues and how it mishandles very serious and sensitive issues. I hope this series and my thoughts on these characters made you think about your own writing and works you see making similar mistakes. I can tell that none of these errors came from a place of malice, but deep ignorance and works that perpetuate said ignorance can send harmful messages to people. I hope by shedding light on this I may make you re-examine the messages you see surrounding female characters in media and their stereotypes. Thank you for reading my incredibly long rants.

[bigskydreaming]

I’m still laughing my ass off over that one post that was going around a week ago with the fanon depictions of the Batboys vs more canon-accurate depictions, and the various ‘defenses’ people leaped to for why fanon is so much better, and its just like....yawn.

See, its not like fanon can’t be better, and isn’t better with some characters, its not that it can’t ADD nuance.

None of that’s the problem.

The problem is when people ONLY use it to DETRACT nuance and then are like ‘wow, whats the problem, whats the issue.’

Let’s take for instance the infamous matter of Dick’s alleged asshole behavior to Jason back when the latter was Robin, because of Dick’s issues with Bruce at the time.

Here’s the thing - even though that’s not what happened, it IS a fairly plausible examination of what could have happened, so its not like there’s no reasoning or justification whatsoever in exploring it. Its that....its not ever explored. Its just used to one-side a situation and render Dick unsympathetic while Jason’s propped up as having been victimized by him and Bruce is largely kept off-stage entirely.

But because quite frankly we just didn’t see much of their interactions back then, period, theoretically, adding more conflict in this vein still COULD have fleshed out that time period and added nuance every bit as much as my preferred additions of more positive interactions between them.

But people don’t add in these conflicts simply to add nuance, they add them in just to add BLAME.

The fanon isn’t the problem there. What you do with the fanon and why is the problem.

Its like my issues with the Jason-Kori-Roy friendship. It’d be one thing if Roy and Kori’s presence in Jason’s life was used to PUSH BACK against Jason’s belief that Dick hated him or didn’t mourn him or even just to provide more understanding or context about Dick’s position or side of things at the time to Jason when he gripes about him, so he’s a little more inclined to be understanding of what that was like for his brother thanks to the viewpoints of people whose POV he values and who in turn have always valued Dick’s POV and position in things. 

But instead everything about the years of sympathy and understanding and insight Roy and Kori have always had for and in regards to Dick are flushed down the drain in order to have them join in with Jason when it comes to bashing and griping about that asshole Dick Grayson. Once again....perfect opportunity to add more nuance and complexity to a situation and a character dynamic, with it almost universally being pounced on to provide the reverse...to TAKE AWAY even MORE nuance and complexity from a situation by erasing anything and everything Roy and Kori might actually feel about what’s being said or believed of this other person they have a history of valuing a great deal.

Or like I was just saying earlier today about how its almost completely forgotten or erased that Dick was shot in the head upon Bruce’s return from the timestream, and was in an eminently sympathetic/hurt position for Bruce and Tim and others to come together around and put aside their own invididual resentments at least for the time being, in order to support Dick throughout an extremely dangerous and debilitating wound and recovery period. The issue with erasing, ignoring or invalidating Dick’s many traumas isn’t that ‘oh we just don’t like all the characters angsting 24/7, sometimes its too much, we like fanon happy-go-lucky Dick because he’s different,’ its like.....lol no, because if you’re still capable of and looking to rip into that depiction of Dick for....get this....not being able to get/grasp/empathize with the kinds of and degrees of trauma you still uphold for all the others, you’re really just looking to make him look unsympathetic in comparison, and shift focus away from their LACK of support and understanding for him when he really justifiably needs it in order to keep that focus instead on their contempt or bitterness for him no matter what else SHOULD have been taking place for him at the same time.

For example....going back to the Dick and Jason’s early years scenario.....I talk all the time about the Brother Blood situation, but guess what else that situation has? A time frame that’s pretty directly applicable to this Dick and Jason enmity scenario so many of you posit, given that the first two times the Church of Blood had Dick captive and were literally said to have released him back into the world secretly under their control....he was still Robin! And the third time, when he finally broke free thanks to the others (and Jason) rescuing him, it was only then that he was Nightwing. Meaning all of that is PERFECTLY positioned to be a fantastic and compelling additional underlying cause of Dick’s alleged early issuers/grievances with Jason.....the same mental turmoil that led to him lashing out against the other Titans like Donna in that infamous fight, could just as easily be said to have contributed or even been entirely behind any shitty interactions with Jason you want to posit happening back in the day. 

And look at how tragically dysfunctional that makes all of that instead then....Jason resents Dick for something that ultimately, isn’t actually his fault since he was never lashing out while in sound mind but as an unknowing reaction to a mental battle against conditioning he didn’t even know was there at the time.....and this being a surprise revelation to Jason years later making him mentally reframe all their history, because Dick never said anything about this earlier because due to his guilt complex he felt it would have just been him making excuses or trying to let himself off the hook instead of a valid and understandable added layer of context. 

That’s SO much more compelling and interesting than just a one-sided ‘one brother is an ass to the other for no real reason whatsoever, at leat not one we’re willing to acknowledge as being anymore relevant than a random footnote’.....but the problem isn’t that people go off fanon vs canon, the problem is REGARDLESS of whether people are using fanon or canon, people just don’t WANT Dick’s position in any of these times to be sympathetic or understandable, they want him JUDGED for it, condemned. They’re not TRYING to craft interesting, compelling dynamics or situations, they’re trying to make him the bad guy, always the bad guy, and the other person just unilaterally his unfortunate victim.

Just like with Tim and Red Robin, for all that even when people are like ‘nobody was really at fault/its not like Dick had another option with Damian, etc’ in PRACTICE there’s literally no distinguishing between this take and ones where Dick is just wholly irredeemable for his unforgivable choice, because despite even lip service paid to the idea that Dick had his reasons for what he did, there’s no actual PAY-OUT ever given to the idea that he’s anything less than terrible a brother to Tim for it...like, fanon is never the issue here, its just straight up canon....being willfully picked apart and reframed to make the issue entirely one-sided. 

People pile on all the additional reasons Dick’s terrible for not taking into account Tim’s headspace at the time, like all the other people he’s lost in the last couple years comic book time, but again, at most there’s lip service about how Dick was going through a lot to, but its never added in to any degree that MATTERS or lessens the characters’ or readers’ vilification of him....while at the same time, there’s a willful disregard of and refusal to engage with all the other things and people Dick had lost in the same time frame, comic book time, like oh.....every single thing that happened in Bludhaven with Blockbuster, Tarantula and Deathstroke, given that the former was literally concurrent with Stephanie’s death and the latter right after Jack Drake’s death. 

There’s never allowed any resentment from Dick towards Tim for not giving a single shit about what he was going through at the time, or for assuming he had no idea how to relate to the depth of Tim’s grief as though Dick hadn’t literally gotten a front row seat to his entire city being nuked by Chemo in that exact same time frame, with it still being touted that Dick just didn’t have any understanding or empathy for Tim’s many losses of the time. There’s never any frustration allowed from Dick about how much Tim resents him for making him give up Robin when at the same time, it was Tim and mostly Tim alone who pushed Dick to give up being Nightwing and assume the Batman mantle when even Bruce’s will had expressed to Dick that this was not what he wanted for him. 

Again, never even time or focus given to Dick being shot in the head on Bruce’s return before using that to call in Bruce as reinforcements for Tim yelling ‘how could you do this to me,’ let alone any acknowledgment of the fact that Dr. Hurt, the very same villain that shot Dick in the head there, is the very same villain who had Dick locked up, straitjacketed, drugged up and on the verge of a lobotomy in Arkham for a week just BEFORE Bruce’s assumed death.....because lolol, it’d make people look pretty silly for taking Dick’s one comment about asking if Tim maybe needed to take a break and look after his mental health in Arkham to the extremes they did, if forced to acknowledge that at the time, Arkham was a TOTALLY different proposition due to how extensively Dick was invested in its rebuilding and overseeing its running thanks entirely TO that time, just before Arkham blew up and needed rebuilding from the ground up in Battle for the Cowl....because of the fact that Dick himself had just spent a week locked up and straitjacketed and drugged to the gills and on the verge of a lobotomy thanks to the oh so tender mercies of Dr. Hurt’s accomplices having the run of the place.

Because end of the day, the problem with this fandom and Dick Grayson is not fanon, and its not canon, its fandom. Its the willful DESIRE to not have any minimizing or mitigating context on display ever, so as to only keep the worst possible interpretation of Dick’s actions - either drawn from canon or fanon, whichever is most handy for a particular scenario - front and center. 

So yeah, the idea that fanon adds nuance or context to Dick’s dynamics with any of his family is hilarious, not because it CAN’T, but because too many people are just entirely too unwilling and uninterested in allowing it to, just as they’re uninterested in any interpretation of actual canon that provides Dick with a smidgen of empathy or understanding for his positions or choices.

Like, that’s the POINT of most of your fanon for him. To strip AWAY nuance. So how are you going to be out here acting like you’re really contributing something to his character that canon doesn’t provide, when really, its all the same to you across the board: Dick Grayson is never justified let alone sympathetic ever? 

[sandalaris]

For the writer asks: 5, 10, 17, 22, 23, 30, 45, & 54!! :D

Finally getting around to answering these XD

5. Books or authors that influenced your style the most.

I read so much I feel like I can’t narrow it down. My favorite author is Ilona Andrews but they write almost exclusively in first person and have their fair share of action in their novels that I don’t think they’re that much of an influence on me. I’m trying to think of who I read that did the whole “people usually feel a mix of emotions over just one” thing that I know I’ve adopted, but I can’t think of who it is. (I can think of an author, who I do love the books of, who did the opposite and I found myself always confused about a character was supposed to be feeling/thinking and they probably influenced me to not do that, but I do like their books and that seems too much like I’m trying to be negative about them.)

10. Pick a writer to co-write a book with and tell us what you’d write about.

If I got to pick anyone, it’d be Marissa Meyer who wrote the Lunar Chronicles. It would be for one novel/novella, because I feel like the Lunar Chronicles has one more sort of side story in it and would want so badly for it to fit what the author has already written. If you haven’t read the series, it’s basically a retelling of various fairy tales just set in the future, like Cinderella has a metal prosthetic foot that keeps falling off and Rapunzel is a hacker living in a satellite orbiting earth. Everything is set up to perfectly fit a Beauty and the Beast side-story. Genetically altered super soldiers who are big and hairy and given animal aggression and had all their teeth surgically replaced with fangs for failing to pass a test as a child? Check! Now all we need is to write a story about the bookish daughter of a geneticist who gets blackmailed into staying with the “beast” and slowly learns that there’s a man inside of the monster and ends up figuring out how to reverse some of the alterations (because we already got the “I love him just as he is, fangs and all” thing from Scarlet and Wolf so we can have a little “curse breaking” this time around.) It can be set post-series, when some of the wolf-soldiers ran off and disappeared into various countries.

I once co-write a novel with my best friend about an evil warlock who fell in insta-love with a ditzy elf and spent the rest of the novel trying to avoid her so he could dodge his fate of retiring from villainy like his father and grandfather before him. He was determined to be the one villain in his family who actually went through with his evil master plan, dammit! It was a comedy, and kind of a spoof since we were at that age where romance novels were the thing to make fun of, but it still ended with him deciding he could do evil masterminding later and running off with the elf. What can I say, we were like twelve.

17. On average, how much writing do you get done in a day?

Eek, the problem with averages is that any sort of outlier knocks everything else off, and I have a lot of outliers, lol. I go through writing spurts, sitting down and all but knocking out an entire chapter/one-shot in one sitting followed by days where I won’t even open a word document. And then there’s sort of my inbetween times where I’m usually typing away on something, but it’s more editing than actual writing, so maybe 100 or so new words might get written, but what I’ve previously written looks better by the end, lol. This has been the norm especially lately with school and work taking up the majority of my time. And then it hits me and I just need to let the story flow out of me? Between 2k-5k a sit down session.

22. How many drafts do you need until you’re satisfied and a project is ultimately done for you?

I don’t really do true drafts. I write, I edit, I post, and then I suddenly see all my typos. On the rare occasion editing doesn’t fix the issue, I might cut the scene into chunks and sort of look for the line(s) that don’t fit and start branching off from there (like maybe someone’s acting out of character *glares at current chapter* and I just needed to look at it in smaller incriments to see where they started to veer off). Only once have I ever just completely reworked the extremely extremely rough draft I had written, but that was an original work I did for Nano and so was more concern with getting words on a page than editing as I go.

I suppose editing could count as a second draft, so two? Maybe three? What is considered One Editing? If I leave off and come back, is it an all new edit/draft, or am I picking up where I left off?

23. Single or multi POV, and why?

Nine times out of ten I seem to veer towards single, although I’ve had some fun with multiple POVs before.

Not really sure why. Maybe I just find it easier to burrow into one person’s headspace and go from there? I know there are times when I want to jump to another character for one specific scene, but I always feel like I’m already committed to telling things from the one character’s POV. Or maybe I just like the limited narrator thing.

30. Favorite line you’ve ever written.

Err.. I don’t know that I have one. How about a line I rather like? This is from a kind of Amaru/Brasa fic (kinda sorta. He’s got that whole mix of love and hate and resentment and worship thing going on, and she has her own twisted attachment to him) set in those six months between seasons. These lines are from a moment where Kate surfaces and Brasa fantasizes about taking out some of his resentment of Amaru on Kate. (He never actually physically harms her, Amaru would never allow someone to mark her vessel simply because its hers, but he likes to imagine.)

He thinks about wide green eyes looking up at him with fear, filling with tears as she whimpers out a “Please.” Imagines pressing a hand to her shoulder, pressing down down down until she’s kneeling before him, trembling as he cups her jaw, forcing her head back. He wants to press his thumb to the plump swell of her bottom lip, dig his nail in until the blood, her soul, comes to the surface. Filling the flesh with color until it spill across her chin in a vibrant slash.

and to give you an idea of how Kate is handling Brasa’s attempts to take his issues out on her...

He can see the muscle at the hinge of her jaw tighten, hear the harsh edge of every exhale, as she turns to look up at him mere inches away.  

“My name,” she clips, “is Kate.” She bites off the last, harsh sound, almost snapping her teeth at him.

45. Worst piece of feedback you’ve ever gotten.

I’m trying to think of actual feedback and not just like angry comments/reviews from people who didn’t like my fics (which tbh I haven’t gotten that much of because people aren’t generally that big of a dick to leave flames on fics these days.)

Someone tried to tell me that a character dropping the f-bomb was unnecessary and jarring and I should remove it from one of my fics. And hey, to each their own, but I personally felt it fit both the character (who cursed in canon) and the story and so kept it in. People certainly can write great literature without every putting down a single curse word, but there’s also great stories that wouldn’t be the same without a bit of foul language. What bugged me most about it was their insistence I should remove it.

Besides that the only other bad feedback I’ve gotten (besides obvious flames and people not liking the direction I’m going/have gone with a story), was someone who said that my clearly labeled unhealthy relationship fic was romanticizing abuse and they didn’t appreciate the one character manipulating the other character like that. They were actually fairly nice about it (if a bit of an anti about the whole thing), I just remember being a little bugged at the time because I had already tagged it as unhealthy/manipulative.

54. Any writing advice you want to share?

Don’t be afraid to experiment! And in that same vein, try out writing rules and discard them just as quickly if they aren’t for you, because there’s no set in stone way to doing things. Break all the rules if you want, the point is just to write. XD

Thanks!!

[nutty1005]

Yan Bingyun – An analysis on Wang Juan's adaptation

This is a series of short articles by the same author which will be a 6 part analysis on Xiao Zhan’s various roles.

Part 1.1 – Wei Wuxian

Part 1.2 – Wei Wuxian

Part 1.3 – Wei Wuxian

Part 2.1 – Yan Bingyun

Part 3.1 – Period Dramas

Part 3.2 – Period Dramas

Original Article: https://www.weibo.com/ttarticle/p/show?id=2309404473770331996359 Original Author: 诗债累累

There were a lot of controversy over the character of Yan Bingyun, and part of the reason is because of Xiao Zhan, while another part comes from the script. For those who had read the original novel, they would feel that the character seems slightly different from what they expected.

Before we talk about the actor, let us first discuss my understanding of the character and the script. There is one point that we can make for certain – the changes made to the character, Yan Bingyun, was made to service the script and plot.

Joy of Life is a novel with almost 3.8 million Chinese characters. The content of this novel is rich and the pace is quick, the style of the novel full of intrigues and foreshadowing, as well as independent, yet interlocking, plot lines, linking complex politics and personal motivations. Under layers and layers of intrigue, the author appeared to be playing a puzzle game with his readers by placing in countless surprises – for example, did you know that the genre of this novel is actually science fiction?

Novels are a form of narrative art, and therefore it is able to contain large amounts of information within a chapter, which the readers can reference back and forth. However, if the script were to be written similarly, it might cause confusion among its viewers. Drama is form of action art – the core of action comes from incident, and in order to form incident, conflict and contradiction are the most important. As such, in terms of script formation, it is important it to focus on the main plot line, with clear direction on the lead character’s motivations.

In comparison against novels, the script needs to be as clear as possible, with highly comprehensible direction:

What are the issues to be resolved in these episodes?

Who are our friends? Who are our enemies?

What is this character’s personality?

What must the character do in order to move the plot forward?

With this, we are able to allow the audience to have a God’s view over the entire storyline, and create the effect that only the characters in the drama are caught unaware.

In the novel, Yan Bingyun is a highly complex character, as quoted from the novel:

Fan Xian thought highly of this Mr. Yan, who he had never met, and admired that he was willing to leave behind his riches and fortune, despite being a court official’s son, travel to a faraway foreign land in order to take on the difficult task of spying on the northern borders, and in addition, he did that exceedingly well. Just by the fact that he managed to successfully infiltrate the Northern Qi upper class, Fan Xian knew that Mr. Yan was more outstanding than he was in many ways.

This meant that Yan Bingyun was a high-flyer, being of a high status despite his age, but yet uninvolved in politics, nor indulge in vices; instead, he worked hard, and it showed in his successful management of the spy network. Most people would manage a spy network by secrecy and infiltration, but for him, he did it by openly participating in Northern Qi upper class. He lived extravagantly as a distinguished and admirable member of the society – people knew him as the great talent Mr. Yun; his main opponent’s younger sister fell in love with him. Even when Fan Xian first saw him, he was still handsome despite being under severe torture for half a year.

From the above descriptions, we can see that Yan Bingyun is another “Strong, Beautiful, Tragic” character, and since Xiao Zhan appeared to be a specialist in such, we could say that this was a suitable casting.

Some said that the script adaptation reduced the complexity of the character, but I felt that this was a purposeful change.

(1) To prevent duplication of character type and performance type

The entirety of Joy of Life is a science of contrast and juxtapose in the its portrayal and scenes – important scenes were paired with relaxed performances; climatic conflicts were paired with an everyday setting, for example, when Emperor Qing was having a group lunch with Fan Xian, the Crown Prince and the Second Prince, he openly asked Fan Xian if the Crown Prince or the Second Prince was a better choice.

By doing so, it added a layer of dark humor and intrigue in the character, creating complexity, and the actor had the freedom to include their imagination in the scene, for example, in the same lunch scene, the actors were given more space in their portrayal and were able to create their own reactions to that question.

This allowed the entirety of the cast to be also in contrast against Fan Xian. They were scheming, creating mystery and trying to be undecipherable. But Fan Xian quickly understood the rules of the game and attempted to change his fate from a chess piece to the chess player.

Based on the script adaptation, Fan Xian is a very outstanding character – he’s an antihero, not entirely righteous, and very relatable for viewers (who belong to the modern society). He had very strong protagonist halo, he is very practical and very self serving.

This also created a problem, in which the majority of the cast were self serving – Emperor Qing, the Crown Prince, the Second Prince, the Elder Princess, Fan Xian, Wang Qinian. This caused the drama to have a darker tone, more egocentric,and most of the conflicts were internalized, resulting in restrictions in the script. While the story appeared to be attacking human nature, it also seemed to comply with the weaknesses of human nature.

As such, the story needed a more direct character, and this character needed to be acute, direct and aware of the self serving society, but uses above board tactics and stratagems. The line “Everything is for the Great Qing” is a brilliant line, as it brought the conflict in this drama away from a self serving level, and showed that there was a higher level which many continued to fight for.

Yan Bingyun was a character who never knew love, but loved deeply (in this case, Qing). This is again in extreme contrast, as the viewers and the characters in the drama would view that Qing is actually a rather lousy country. From the current status, it appeared that his view was to create a revolution from within, spiraling upwards from the bottom to top.

Hence, the Yan Bingyun in the drama became more passionate, more acute; while others were plotting in the dark, he continued to use above board tactics – the only externalized character in the entire drama.

I have created this table for easy understanding:

(2) When grouping up characters, the need to determine character positioning and quadrant

Wang Juan stated in this in a Weibo post: “This character (referring to Yan Bingyun), will need to be part of the team with Fan Xian, Wang Qinian and Gao Da in the future. It would be amusing when these 4 interact, there is probably a need to have greater headspace for this.”

If there were no adjustments to Yan Bingyun’s character, he probably could have completed all the tasks of Fan Xian + Wang Qinian + Gao Da on his own. He knew more about Qing’s internal conflicts, he also understands Northern Qi. While Wang Qinian also had the same clarity, his court position was too low and he had too little influence. And Gao Da’s main task was the fighting force, and for sure, Yan Bingyun could fight as well.

As such, in order to become part of the “crew”, there is a need to weaken his perfect image – a classic example, in the novel, Yan Bingyun built the spy network from scratch, whereas in the drama he took over and managed an existing network.

Zhang Ruoyun said in an interview: “Yan Bingyun is strict, and I am super not-strict, our relationship is a bicker-tease relationship. This understanding is very accurate.”

And we can see this after the changes in his character, we can see the distribution of work in this team of 4:

For the Great Qing: Yan Bingyun > Gao Da > Wang Qinian > Fan Xian

Political strength: Yan Bingyun > Wang Qinian = Fan Xian > Gao Da

Fighting strength: Fan Xian > Gao Da > Yan Bingyun > Wang Qinian

Support required: Fan Xian = Yan Bingyun > Wang Qinian > Gao Da

Before the changes in the character, “For the Great Qing” was a blurry concept, and Yan Bingyun felt mechanical and one dimensional. After the changes, he had more flaws, and as such had greater room for growth. He needed support from this team, and the symbiotic relationship he had with Fan Xian would aid Fan Xian in quickly attaining his goal.

Wang Juan said that to see Yan Bingyun, is to see the emotions that he was unable to contain. We can predict that Yan Bingyun will be of a greater effect in the next arc, with more scenes and character growth. His place in the first arc was just setup for this, and as such, this Yan Bingyun needed not to be perfect.

[bloomandcoffee]

Is it possible that Dimitri and Edelgard could be foils in regards to their trust issues and the progression of their character in their respective routes? I remember there was a big post a while ago about Edelgards line in AM where she meets with Dimitri and ends up talking about how there is no way someone like Dimitri can understand the poor (a very out of left field line). Then it turns out that her actual japanese line translates to the following: (1/7)

“Someone who was fortunate enough like you to have those things, will never understand those of us who don’t have those things. ” I’ve seen people act like this entire line changes a lot about Edelgard and the scene in general, and while I agree that it makes more sense in context than the english line we got, I also dont think it puts Edelgard in a more favorable light. The problem is, Dimitri here is saying that he belives that even weak people are capable of supporting and (2/7)

lifting eachother up (in response to Edelgards ideals that people have to be strong on their own to survive), and that he has learned this from his friends and Byleth helping him when he was at his worst. So, the ‘things’ in Edelgards line can be replaced with 'the support and trust of ones friends and Byleth’, because that is what Dimitri has that Edelgard claims she herself doesn’t. The problem is pretty obvious at this point because this line doesn’t change wheter or not (3/7)

the players nabbed any Black Eagles from the Empire, so Edelgard says this even though its very possible she still has the support of her former classmates. It all just comes down to Edelgard going “Well, you were fortunate enough to have the professor to with you (that taught you those things), and you will never understand those of us that don’t have the professor (to teach us those things).” ('those things’ being trust in other people). Edelgard is basically stating that since she has (4/7)

no one she can trust, thats her motivation for going to the extremes she does, and compared to Dimitri she’s unfortunate (despite the fact that her war ruined his life) because he has Byleth by his side and she doesn’t. This sort of give a basis for a potential change in her if you play CF that actually doesn’t end up happening. Because compared to Dimitri, who does eventually try and reach out to his friends and rebuild their relationship despite him being a dirty murder hobo (5/7)

for over five years, in her route Edelgard never tries to reach out or justify herself to anyone that isn’t Byleth. She keeps everyone in the dark about her past, her motivations, and her connection with TWSITD. She still goes to the same extremes she does in any other route as confirmed by several NPC dialogues. Edelgard is a static character that never overcomes her lack of trust in others even with the help of the player (who is the sole exception to the no trust rule), (6/7)

while Dimitri overcoming his lack of trust and reaching out to others in AM (compared to Edelgards route constantly having others reach out to her instead) is arguably the biggest character development in the game. (7/7)

There are translation issues abound, not only in regards to our imperial lord, after all a key part of Dimitri’s and Dedue’s relationship in CF was cut off by the translation. Nevertheless, that is a wonderful point anon.

She’s never open to trust, nor does she try to reach someone else. Not even with Lysithia who is someone that suffered the same as her. Be it a product of bad writing, trauma, waifu MC-sexual bait, whatever you want to call it; fact remains that she doesn’t reach out, and in fact openly deceives even if Byleth is with her. 

The fact that she only does it with Byleth is more suspect than genuine. At least to me. For a route that advertised you reaching for her hand, there was an absurd lack of imperial Majesty genuine hand offering to those around her. 

I always remember how in VW she gets this whole “I wanted to reach for your hand :C” after taking over Enbarr, and I only thought how self serving of someone who used her people as human shields and benefitted from crimes against humanity, to lament about not having support or trust. 

It also comes to mind that in CF Dimitri is in a far better headspace than he is in all the other routes, and that he has both the trust and support of his people. After all, Kingdom soldiers (aside from Dedue) go behind his back (taking Dedue’s lead!) to transform into crest beasts in order to both protect King and Country. 

Byleth isn’t with Dimitri, heck all the BLions may be recruited, but with Rhea’s help he pulled through and avoided Cornelia’s backstabbing. He still has issues, of course, but he’s in a much better headspace, and has earned the loyalty and love of his people. The fact that Kingdom Soldiers follow the plan made by a man from Duscur? It speaks quite a lot about the kind of cultural shift that ought to be in motion in Faerghus all those five years. 

Dimitri (and Dedue!) reaching out, establishing trust and support with other people can happen even if Byleth is not with them. It’s just a matter of circumstances. 

Byleth is in fact key essential for Dimitri’s and Dedue’s survival. Yes, throughout the route they help the lions bond more, but the social networks they create carry their own weight aside from Byleth.

I have to say however that, as beautiful and tempting as his CF state of mind is, Dimitri’s journey in AM is far more poignant. Not only because of his trauma, establishing connections, fall from grace, resolution and eventual clawing back –but how brutally honest it is with him and all those around him. It’s a feedback loop of connections and supports that go both ways, and how it can both harm and heal. Heck even recruited units react to him, and comment on him, his behavior, and what they expect of him regardless of possible supports or not. 

Trust and support is a two way street, and IS allowed Dimitri to interact with the world and the world to interact back. 

Also, as a funny trivia, when Dimitri talks about trust and not looking for deceit behind every word, he’s in fact the only lord who hasn’t done a betrayal of his fellow lords at that point.  

Edelgard had hired Kostas to assassinate her fellow lords and future leaders of foreign nations. Whereas Claude, though his betrayal is nowhere near Edelgard’s extreme, had tried to bail out and leave them for dead. 

[solaceinprose]

SING (Like No One’s Listening) - Vanessa Jones: Review

GoodReads Synopsis

A moving story of grief and healing - sure to be a pure joy for any musical theater aficionado. Nettie Delaney has just been accepted into a prestigious performing arts school--the very same school her superstar mother attended. With her mother's shadow hanging over her, Nettie has her work cut out for her--and everyone is watching. To make matters worse, Nettie hasn't been able to sing a single note since her mother died. Whenever she tries, she just clams up. But if Nettie's going to survive a demanding first year and keep her place in a highly coveted program, she'll have to work through her grief and deliver a showstopper or face expulsion. All may not be lost, however, when Nettie stumbles upon a mysterious piano player in an empty studio after class. Masked behind a curtain, can Nettie summon the courage to find her voice? Or will the pressure and anxiety of performing come crashing down? All about finding and raising your voice, and not throwing away your shot, Vanessa Jones's well-crafted journey of grief and healing will pull readers along with its strong narrative voice and satisfying sense of mystery.

I want to preface this review that there appears to be two different versions of this book by two different publishers. I was given an ARC of the 2020 edition that does not come out until Sept. 1, 2020 published by Peachtree Publishing. There’s an edition by Macmillan Children’s Books that came out April 2019. The review is for the Sept. 1, 2020 edition with this cover.

Vanessa Jones' novel, SING (Like No One's Listening) is a musical theater or musical person's wet dream. It's a mixture of FAME!, Center Stage (there's ballet), one of the many Cinderella Story movies that involves the really hot guy and the girl with the desire to be a singer and has a really great voice, and every other musical movie out there. It can be a bit smaltzy at times, but for the most part, I enjoyed it for what it was; a really cute and breezy YA novel about a singer and her first year at a performing arts college.

Nettie Delaney lost her singing voice after her mother suddenly dies from a long term illness. Her mother was a pretty well known ballerina in her hey day and was a student at Duke's College of Performing Arts or whatever its actual name was. Nettie botches her audition, but somehow made it, and thinks, after finding out that the director (whose family owns the school) were friends with her mother when they were much much younger. As she struggles to find her voice, she meets new friends, a new boy that captures her interest, as well as a few enemies. Because what book about a performing arts school doesn't have drama and cattiness.

The great thing about this book is that Vanessa Jones actually did go to a performing arts school and was in musical theater. It's obvious this woman knows her stuff, and it shines in the novel. The history of ghost singers that becomes a project between Nettie and her crush, Fletch (because why not?) was fascinating. I do wish, however, that there was more focus on that project than a lot of the unnecessary drama that felt shoehorned in for the sake of page count.

Speaking of the unnecessary drama, the two girls that become enemies with Nettie felt almost as if they were caricatures  of actual performing art students. Yes, it is highly competitive and yes, people are looking out for each other, but the drama wasn't about talent. It was over a boy, and that felt lazy and contrite. I would have believed Jade and Natasha finding Nettie competition regarding talent, but over some dude who has a pretty smile, plays the guitar, and can carry a tune? Oh, and he's white so now we have White Guy With Guitar happening, and it couldn't be more cliched if it tried.

WGWG, by the way, is Fletch. Shocking, I know.

The other issue I had with this book is the obvious hand holding that the teachers did with Nettie. Home girl went through almost her entire first term unable to sing a note. She's awful at ballet, can pass a dance class, but her whole point of being at this school is singing/musical theater. And it isn't until last maybe 100 pages, possibly less, does she actually belt a tune out and show exactly why she should be at that school in the first place. I did appreciate that Miss Duke basically told her that if she doesn't show up that her time at the college was through after the summer. But even still, she got far more allowances that actual students would have gotten. Tragic backstory aside.

The other highlight of the story are the secondary characters, Alec, Leon, and Kiki. They were all great, fleshed out, and weren't just side notes in Nettie's story. Alec was written almost stereotypical of a gay dancer, but his arrogance and confidence wasn't really all that out there. Jones probably ran into dancers like Alec all the time. Either way, I really did adore him and Leon and Kiki.

I wanted to give this 4 stars because I really did enjoy the hell out of it, but the lack of resolution about Nettie's mother's history really brought it down. There was so much the writer could have done with Nettie finding out who her mother was and why she gave up ballet and cut off ties to that world, but we never got it. Instead we had to have another scene where Nettie was all "bad headspace" over Fletch and that drama. There was so much potential there, and I saw it there, shimmering in the distance, but it never happened. I wanted less smaltz and more history. Because of that, this got stuck at a solid 3 stars for me.

GoodReads Rating: 3 Stars

[comicteaparty]

April 18th-April 24th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble  chat that occurred from April 18th, 2020 to April 24th, 2020.  The chat focused on the following question:

What are your personal rules of thumb for determining whether a certain page needs a maturity or trigger warning?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i have no rule of thumb and i'm really curious to read what other people think about this

Deo101 [Millennium]

I usually ask people if they think it needs one, and I only ask if it is significantly different than what I've been doing.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I guess it depends on the subject and the severity. There are the basic ones, like rape, excessive gore, suicide, graphic sex, common phobias, etc. Things that can very easily trigger a large group of people or are generally not allowed in PG-13 movies. But there are other times I don't know if putting a warning or labeling it as mature is necessary. For example, profanity, suggestive material, violence (that doesn't involve gore), and again typically things that can make it into a PG-13 movie. Once it starts to be graphic enough to move into the realm of rated R, that's when you should start putting warnings. My problem with warnings as a creator is that the warnings can kind of spoil the contents of the chapter, so I try not to use them unless what happens in the comic could potentially harm a large number of people by not warning them.

RebelVampire

As a reader I do want to chime in say I agree with that last part. Whenever I see warnings, they are very spoilery so there's no surprise when I get to the warning part of the chapter/episode/page. I expected it so it loses some of its emotional value for me. Or, on the flipside, is so minor it shouldn't have had a warning that its ultimately underwhelming and disappointing.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yeah, that's exactly why I'm wary about it

I am very sparing with my warnings, because I don't want the readers to lose any of that emotional impact.

carcarchu

my target audience for my webcomic is middle schoolers so the content i produce is never something i feel i need to put trigger warnings for. personally i think you don't really need to tag things unless the content is significantly different from what is expected from the comic. like if it starts out a lighthearted romp and then suddenly there's beserk levels of violence that probably ought to have some warning

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I would probably put a CW for blood, gore etc. Of any level just to be safe. Different people have different sensitivities, and as a sex-averse ace I know I often would like CW on sexual/sex-adjacent content that others might not think was enough to need one so. I just err on the side of caution

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I specifically never put warnings in anything I write. If something I write deeply upsets someone or makes them extremely uncomfortable, that's a good thing. It means I've done my job in expressing and conveying the emotional context I set out to accomplish in most circumstances.

My background is poetry and I've only ever read a single book that had any warnings attached, and that was at the beginning of the book, not for each poem. Even then, it was from an author who was particularly, er, well a bit off their rocker.

Like, if you open a collection of poetry and you're surprised to see heavy topics covered...that's your own fault at that point.

If I had opened one of my favourite collections, The Flame by Leonard Cohen, and saw content warnings, I would have probably said in my head "Why the fuck is this here?" and "Well, no shit that's in here, this is Leonard Cohen."(edited)

My job is to convey and express regardless of what the reader might think. It's never my job to guide or warn them, it's my job to present to them.

Fiction, outside of that catered to younger audiences, tends to contain a lot of stuff that can be deeply uncomfortable to the reader (yes, even comedy). I've read stuff that's really gotten to me emotionally, and that's OK, that's a good thing, the author presented what they intended to (G-d knows they did). If you don't want that, then really, you just have to be cognizant of the fiction you're reading and remember that stories about life often have all aspects of life in them.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I have read things (though mostly non-fiction) that have made me want to cry or so sick that I felt the need to vomit. The author didn't warn me of that. They presented what they had without pretext nor excuse. They did their job. Those are very much extremes, but the point is that I consensually opened those texts knowing that might happen. I mean, it's not hard to look at the subject matter or what the reviews say and think "Hm, OK, this book isn't all sugar and roses". Frankly, though, I just feel that the content warnings and all tarnish the authenticity of a text that stands on its own.

Sorry for the rambling, but admittedly, I do include a content warning for that in my username!

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I don‘t do content warnings, but I try to make sure to be upfront about the type of story people can expect.

Seen the results of someone springing a graphic, surprise character-gets-raped-to-death into until then fluffy childfriendly story for „trolololOLOL, I made you have a FEEL, I am an ARTISTE.“

It‘s disrespectful to the reader at best, after all they need to be able to make an informed decision if they opt in or not.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Alright, that's plain bad writing, but dramatic tone shifts can and are used effectively.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I thought about content warning because I have seen comics that was upsetting to me and readers, and there was no trigger warning. Just a side note in the first chapter that the author explain that 'their characters' weren't a representation of every trans experience. But still had backlash for it. So some content warning when it comes to sensitive stuff like trauma, gender disphoria should be stated somewhere? I wasn't Trans but effected, I assume it was worse for trans readers seeing uncomfortable scenes that remind them of bad experiences.(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

When I was younger, I used to be into a lot of animated stuff, and there was this one anime (don't judge, I was like fourteen) called Steins;Gate that, for the first half, is relatively comedic and lighthearted, before a very dramatic tone-shift in one episode where most of the main cast die on-screen and it becomes a conspiracy/time-travel thriller. It was actually very, very good, and it's an incredibly popular show because of it.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yeah. I think this is what content warnings are coming from: trying to enable the reader to make an informed decision of they wanna opt in to a story or not. It‘s a matter of consent.

They‘re not perfect, but better than nothing.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I agree with @chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa] here on the point that it's about being able to knowingly consent to a potentially unpleasant experience

Deo101 [Millennium]

Honestly I'd rather have a small spoiler at the end of the page before Something happens than potentially hurt someone

Again, only if it's really tonally dissonant

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

There's plenty of things I don't mind if I'm aware of it beforehand so I can make sure I'm in a good headspace, but the same things could totally put me off a story/creator and give me issues for months if I wasn't expecting them

Source: personal experience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Webcomics are probably very different, but I'd find it would put me off a lot in poetry (and it's also something you don't see in it; it's just not a part of the industry culture). But people having negative emotions from reading is very commonplace and par for the course.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

But I also feel that content warning do give away bit of spoiler. I was taught the good way to protray an incoming dark topic is to give hints along the chapters, rather than 'spring it out of the blue'. I haven't written anything super dark/angst before though. It's uncomfortable for me and I haven't cross that threshold of feeling yet(edited)

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

Personally I feel like if your story or scene or whatever relies so heavily on the shock of specific content that it would be ruined by the "spoiler" potential of a content warning, it's bad writing

Deo101 [Millennium]

I feel like stories in general are not ruined by spoilers, though some people don't like them. But if we're in a scene and we're gonna see someone get cut in half and you say "hey this battle has extreme violence" that's hardly a spoiler

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Not always. Shock, if it's not in bad taste, can be used as a device to help set the emotional context for the rest of the passage. It's bad writing to use it bombastically and haphazardly, but in light touches, like a ghost pepper, it can help. On its own, though, yeah it's usually bad writing.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Since comics are visual there is more need for this kind of a thing because it can be more intense for readers

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Ah, yeah, that's true. My field doesn't have visuals.

I can imagine it may be different in that case.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Also, think like. Movies also have this, that's what the rating system is

A movie rated r for extreme violence isn't a spoiler

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Especially if it has Tom Cruise in it.

RebelVampire

Yes but imagine if the movie paused right before the worst parts to say "Hey this is gonna be a mature scene"

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Age ratings ARE content warnings.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Tv shows do it at the beginning of an episode

And, with comics you have natural pauses

Putting a small banner at the bottom of an update doesn't interrupt the flow the same way putting it at the top of one would, and it can prep people to know not to even open the next update kind of thing

I haven't done content warnings my content is only pg13 but I've thought a lot about it for future, more intense ideas

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

In Germany‘s there are no tv show content warnings, but certain stuff can only be aired after 20:30 or on dedicated channels.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I agree with @RebelVampire . In my favourite movie of all time by far which you 100% have to watch (IT'S REALLY GOOD!!!) On the Waterfront, there's one scene which really gut-punched me when I first watched it because it's, well, fairly disturbing, but if the movie stopped before it and some dude came up and said "B'ys, cover your children's eyes", that'd be ridiculous. Age warnings pre-screening are fine because it's an audiovisual form, but considering that text doesn't have that visual or audio component, I just don't see the need. I can understand why you would do it as a comic artist, though.

Deo101 [Millennium]

There are also, for movies and TV, sites like "does the dog die?" Which provide this kind of information for people with triggers. Comics don't have this kind of a site though so it's on the creator

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

That reminds me, I need to put Nyx+Nyssa‘s age rating note up. g

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

People with triggers are the sticking point for me. Even if most people would be okay, there's people who won't be and I don't want to act like they don't matter when I'm putting warnings on my content. I feel like it's my responsibility if I'm making that content.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yup. I know someone with cPTSD who cannot engage with media without content warnings; because disassociation is NOT fun and dangerous. „Does the dog die“ and similiar things mean she can engage with media without having to rope in others as betas.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yes, same here. Obviously you can't warn for everything, many people have obscure and specific triggers, but there are common ones that are generally sensitive subjects that I don't think it's bad to warn a bit about

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't think it is your responsibility, but rather those with triggers to be careful. I'm a trauma victim and I do have triggers, but you know, I can't expect everyone to know that (especially with how hilariously specific they are). If you're worried, do your research

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

There‘s a huge difference between being responsible of for someone and being mindful for someone.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

As someone who has triggers as well - I'd prefer to be able to see at a glance. It's awful having to be on guard constantly and worried about what if you didn't do your research quite well enough

Deo101 [Millennium]

I personally only read comics on reccomendation because of mine

They're not common ones but I've never been annoyed by trigger warnings that aren't for me

It usually looks much different from the comic so you can just quick look and scroll past

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I really understand that and I can understand it in the context of your industry because it has that visual component, but in the context of mine it's not done because content warnings wouldn't really make much sense for my industry. What will annoy me is when trigger warnings are uploaded for every part of the webcomic. Like, that's a little extreme.

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I understand it's very different context for poetry - but I'm talking about comics

Deo101 [Millennium]

I would agree that uploading for every page would be extreme, but I would think I'm that case it would be at the start of the comic or in the description

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

About pages! They exist for a reason.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

At the beginning of the entire comic, if you want to, that's fine. I think it does change the mindset of the reader and can be detrimental to the story in some cases, but if you know it's not, then that's fine! Of course, that problem can be solved just like @chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa] just suggested: put it on the About page.

Yeah, no, I could get behind that.

For webcomics, I think that would be a good solution.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Some sites don't offer about pages, though, and if it's not a major theme and only in a small part it's nice to put it in the comic itself too

Like my comic is generally very light-hearted but coming up I do have a scene that's significantly more violent than the rest of the comic has been, and I debated whether or not to warn my readers about it

I don't want to put a violence warning in my description though because it would draw the wrong audience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, it really depends. If it's suddenly looks like the notes of a medical student, then put a warning, but some light violence is probably fine.

Others could probably give a better opinion on that though.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Yup. I liked how dumbing of age handled it‘s suicide warning - it was specific to that particular page because it dealt with specific details as opposed the more general discussion. So that page got a small note on top. Didn‘t remove the emotional impact, but allowed people to brace themselves or opt out.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Page the Poet refuses content warnings and enjoys their readers' suffering (/s).

All jokes aside, what do you mean about some sites not offering About pages? I'm not well-versed on hosting web-comics.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Well, for instance with webtoons you have a 500 (?) Character description, and that's it

Maybe it's 1500 or something idk it's been a while since I wrote mine. But it's not a seperate page like how I would have on my own site

On your own site it's awesome cause people can just, if they have triggers they can go there to see jf they're fine to read

But with webtoons, tapas, and other hosts you get one page and it's just your comic and description

So putting "violence warning" there is much different than on a seperate page

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I thought most web-comics had their own site?

Deo101 [Millennium]

I mean I do, but many don't

And most readers these days are on hosts I think

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh. Yeah, alright, I see the issue.

Deo101 [Millennium]

My description says pg13, LGBT, and slowburn and that's all it gets from me. I would be more descriptive in my about page which I do still need to code

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I'm curious, why specify the LGBT part?

Deo101 [Millennium]

But yeah so it's a very case by case basis depending on where you are and all that

Oh because I want lgbt people to know my comic has an LGBT cast and is catered to them

It's so my comic more likely finds my target audience

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

OH.

carcarchu

i think about stuff like school live and bokurano and consider that i'd be really upset if the sudden dramatic shift in tone was overtly warned beforehand because the shock factor was so important for those series in particular so i don't know how to handle warnings for stuff like that

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

That makes sense.

Please excuse my idiocy haha.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Not idiocy, it's a lot of potential to learn ;)

Carcarchu, it's really a personal choice of the author and what they want. If you don't wanna do it cause you think your story would suffer, that's totally fine. But personally and a lot of other creators agree, id rather potentially risk a slight decrease of my impact to protect some people.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You see, in poetry, it works like this: you find a journal that suits your poetry, you submit it, you don't get published, and you cry yourself to sleep. Repeat twenty odd times until you get accepted somewhere. Then, you get published there and you tend not to worry about target audiences and stuff yourself. 'Tis a foreign world to me!

RebelVampire

Yeah I agree that I think at the end its a personal choice cause you'll never please everyone whether you do or don't use warnings

carcarchu

i'm thinking about my experience reading those two series and being blown away by the sudden tone shift and really liking one of those series because of it. but then i think about my experience with madoka where i actually started watching it BECAUSE i saw a spoiler about the twist and it piqued my interest. i still enjoyed madoka but i wonder how my experience with it would have been different if i went in blind

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

@carcarchu , I'm with you. It really depends on what you can do, I think. If it's available to those who need it without expressly being there for those who don't want spoilers (An optional CW of sorts), that could work.

carcarchu

i like the idea of optional cw

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't know if it's an idea that could work, though, as I'm not experienced with web-comics. @Deo101 [Millennium] , your thoughts?

Deo101 [Millennium]

On a personally coded site you could probably with a lot of effort make something like that work, but that's not really so much an option on hosts

Tapas has a mature toggle where that specific page says "this contains mature content" or something, but everyone sees it

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

If it's personally coded, it should be fairly easy with a small bit of javascript, right?

Deo101 [Millennium]

And for other sites it's not an option at all other than for the entire series as a before you enter sort of deal

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I personally would put warnings Because some chapters deal with traumatic subject matter and I’ve had friends see them and warn me about those However I wouldn’t just do content warnings for something like swearing

Deo101 [Millennium]

I don't think you could code it easily, at least not with the systems I'm using.

Again the best solution I've come up with is at the end of the previous update, so people can skip over it easier and it doesn't interrupt flow the same way

carcarchu

the easiest way to do it on smth like webtoons would just to put some text on ur page that says something like "optional content warning for the next page in description, read at your own risk" but again that would spoil a potential twist

Deo101 [Millennium]

Honestly like Doesn't the twist just happen at the warning then instead of at the panel

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think the real solution is to just not write anything.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like it's not spoiling it it's just moving it a few lines up

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Don't even write the webcomic. Best solution.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And content warnings don't say who or how

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Perfection.

carcarchu

i might be miffed if i read TWIST INCOMING and then had to wait a week to actually see it

Deo101 [Millennium]

Just a general, vague, "what"

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Say there's triggering content, but don't say where or what. Put it on the last page too.

carcarchu

but it could potentially drum up interest like WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT WEEK

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah that's what I mean

carcarchu

idk could go either way

Deo101 [Millennium]

Not like there's a twist!

Just hey things get intense

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I don't know, it could still be triggering. I think we should just write no webcomic at all.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmmm I never thought of that

But what if people forget about the trigger and just jump right in

carcarchu

if they forget the trigger isn't that their fault and not the creator?

Deo101 [Millennium]

People who have the trigger will remember

carcarchu

they were given ample warning

Deo101 [Millennium]

And if they do not then I did what I could

Sorry but I have a specific trigger of people watching someone sleep, I've had two people warn me their comics include it, and I remember. And that was like a year ago

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

My stupid sense of humour aside, I do agree with Deo and Carcarchu. If you forget the trigger, that's your own fault. The author making that information available is one thing, but they aren't there to hold your hand.

carcarchu

oh man that's a super common trope deo that must be rough

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah but it's cool

Like I know it's a common trope and it's not really one you can see coming or anything :/ so it's cool

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I think warnings are helpful tho if u be general like it contains a thing but u dont kno what it is till u read it

Like doe me it was doki doki lit club i didn't took seriously till it hit me and im like O

carcarchu

with dokidoki i knew about there WAS a twist but i didn't know exactly what it is so i was still shocked by it when it happened

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah like "Graphic violence" isn't a spoiler especially if you're already like 3 pages into a fight scene

carcarchu

but again they warned about it pretty vigilantly in the beginning before u play dokidoki? i'm not really sure how you could miss it?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yeah.

In all seriousness, I like the About page option / optional CW, but I realize that might be impossible in a lot of scenarios.

Maybe put in the description of the first page "OPTIONAL CW BELOW" for example for those who want it?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, or the page before. Only concern is people not reading it, but then again that kind of falls under the "their responsibility" section

kayotics

I’ve put one warning in before, but I kept it to promo images (so like social media update images) and in the comic description a few pages before. My reasoning was: it was tonally different & darker from the rest of the comic, but I didn’t put the warning in the pages because of the reader is paying attention, the fact that its coming is pretty obvious. Who knows if I did the right thing it handled it correctly, but I really struggled with figuring out what to do

Deo101 [Millennium]

Another concern is that some comics will run for years, decades even, and so its sometimes impossible to know at the beginning what might need to be warned for.

I think that's good Kay.

It's unobtrusive and gives the people who need it what they need

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Optional warning on the page before, then?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah that's what I said earlier I was kinda planning on doing if it ever became necessary

kayotics

That’s essentially what it was. I think I wrote a caveat that the warning was a spoiler

Deo101 [Millennium]

That makes sense

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm if you’re doing it on the page before How specific should the warning be

kayotics

I know a lot of people don’t read page descriptions, especially when binging, so I’m banking on the context of the chapter being the biggest warning

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Like do you just say optional warning?

kayotics

What I did is I said something about the the content of the next page without getting into too much detail

Deo101 [Millennium]

I see things like "warning: graphic violence, sexual content, substance abuse," etc. Stuff like that

kayotics

Yeah. Mine was graphic violence or gore or something

Deo101 [Millennium]

Where it doesn't say who or how or anything, just a vague what

Which usually, the context of the scene is around that kind of a theme anyways where we can tell it's coming

So a content warning is more like "this does get turned up to an 8 here"

Though it can be a surprise where Something like what Kay did is really good

Like okay so spoilers but be warned

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

B'y, turn it up to at least eleven. Go big or go home.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'm on a 1-8 scale

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

But what about the saying? Heresy!

kayotics

I think in the context of my comic it felt like, to me, that I was turning it up to 8 from a 1 or 2. It’s not the MOST GRAPHIC thing I’ve ever seen, but with the entirety of the rest of the work it’s tonally different, which is why I needed the warning

My comic, at its worst, usually just sees some curses and cartoon violence.

This was, like, full on blood and gore

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I jumped straight into 12 at one point for mine whoops

kayotics

So I think context of the work is important with a warning as well

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah, I'm usually around a 1-2 too. I've got pg-13 in my description and if I'm ever toeing the edge of it, I'm gonna warn about it

kayotics

If you have a violent or heavy comic already, warnings for each page is ridiculous. It’s when you turn it up that you should mention something

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah exactly

DanitheCarutor

Aaah you know, I don't put warnings on my pages, because practically half the comic would have CWs due to the focus on upsetting themes. There was one instance where I did put one up for a page containing a lot of queerphobic language presented in a way that was jarring, and potentially triggering for people who've experienced something like that. Although I've somewhat regretted singling out that one page since the comic from that point only gets worse, in hindsight that one instance isn't bad enough to warrant a warning. I'll probably take it down once I stop being lazy. In general I feel a page-by-page warning is best for comics that don't normally have heavy stuff, it makes sense to warning for violence if that's not a normal thing in your comic, it might shock readers too much otherwise. As far as content, everyone has different sensitivity levels (someone put a CW up once for a character being yelled at by his dad), personally I would only use CWs for excessive violence/abuse, blood, mental illness, suicide, rape, gore, slurs and/or substance abuse. I've gotten a lot of mixed reception on warnings, there are people who want them up, in detail, on every page with potentially upsetting content. People who want them chapter by chapter, some like detail, some want a general warning. Then there are people who don't want any warnings either due to them being too spoilery, or they feel it ruins the immersion. I went for a warning in a pop-up on my main site and leaving a list in my description on other sites, mostly for the non-spoiler crowd and because of what I said before about practically half my comic being potentially triggering.

There are two chapters coming up where I'll be putting up a general warning banner at the start of the chapter, with a hidden list of triggers in the author's notes and an option to read a safer summarized version at the end of each chapter, rather than forcing everyone to read the whole thing. Just because the content will be really difficult for some in presentation and/or subject matter, and I don't want to outright distress anyone... at least without them understanding what they're getting into.

Like, even compared to how my comic already is the next chapters will be really upsetting... for some people.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It's not bad if people are upset or distressed. Like, full on disassociation from PTSD, obviously not, but I think these CWs are for them, not Alice Smith the average woman. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, I feel like, because of that, the general approach is best. Adding a CW for someone getting yelled at by their father is too spoiler-y/specific in my mind.

carcarchu

i really like dani's approach with the summary at the end for people who want to know what happened but can't stomach actually seeing the nitty gritty

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Here’s the problem tho...my series literally deals with trauma healing

So there’s going to be mentions of...going to therapy, friends talking about it

Not the actual trauma itself

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yeah, I wouldn't bother with CWs there.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

But I’m really worried that if I have to put up trigger warnings every time...a lot of pages will have that warning

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

People know what they're getting in for.

If you're going to read a comic about healing from trauma...don't be surprised at content that's not very fun.(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, my warnings are specifically for the mentally ill, people who've been in abusive situations and such. I don't want to end up bring back certain experiences, at least without them knowing what they're getting into.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm in that case I might have to put it in the summary itself then

That there’s trauma healing Of course it’s also about humor and slice of life, but I’ll add it in just in case

Would it help to get sensitivity readers to take a gander look?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, in my mind, a general synopsis of the basic plot is a good idea for a lot of stories so long as you aren't spoiling anything.

DanitheCarutor

Me? Nah, I mean, I should but it wouldn't change my decisions since my story is really tight and changing stuff would end up changing everything.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In this case, trauma-healing seems to be a part of that plot.

So, you know, if it's mentioned, I think that's blaringly obvious at that point to people that "B'ys, there may be some triggering shit here", y' know?

DanitheCarutor

Oh, I totally misread the convo. Lol I mean, you could get a sensitivity reader if you want to be on the safe side, but if you're writing from experience and you've done research I don't see a problem with not having one.

carcarchu

having read the first few chapters of shadow's comic trauma healing was not an aspect that i picked up from it(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Sensitivity reader?

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree, I get more light heart tone with Shadow's story, but I know stuff ahead of time(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh nooo

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

maybe the aspects will come up as the comic progresses shadow

:0

DanitheCarutor

My comic is also about trauma and healing, and while I haven't experienced all the things my characters have, I did do a ton of research and talked to people. Although my comic is a vent comic so most of it is based off my experiences.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I've just put general content warnings in the about page and appropriately rated my comic for its content. There will be things that are written thar i have no idea that could be triggering to people that exsist in a lot of media, it almost becomes impossible to sort through. And with the amount of content to sift through that would/wouldn't be sensitive to certain topics or just generally unaware, its tricky. If there is a reader with a potentially sensitive trigger, i would hope they could get a friend to do a read through if possible, but rarely have i seen comics go right into topics that would need such a hand to do so. Stories have descriptions and ratings for that reason, you're not going to find insane violence in Pokemon type stories, so the author has that responsibility of rating it correctly is what im getting at

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Sorry, what's a sensitivity reader?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A sensitivity reader is like, a beta reader who specifically checks whether your work is offensive/ insensitive (e.g. when you're wondering "is my portrayal of this ethnic group offensive/ignorant?")

carcarchu

i think a sensitivity reader is for when ur writing a story that includes a particular cultural or ethnic group that ur NOT part of and u want to avoid making your story culturally insensitive

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Ooh Dani, is it Guide to Unhealthy Relationship? Your comic often stand out to me. I knew what I was getting into when I read it

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I was a sensitvity reader for someone who was writing a viet american and keii pretty much sums it up

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

That's a thing? Who does that? Ethnic Studies professors?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And it's not just for ethnic groups

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I gave suggestions to add and avoid if ya writing a character from a certain ethnic group or marginalized group

like LGBT+, persons with disabilities etc

carcarchu

ethnic groups is the first thing i thought of but yes

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No, not ethnic studies professors.

Members of the marginalized group.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

So if you're writing a trans character, you probably want a sensitivity reader who is trans

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep!

carcarchu

example the mangaka of golden kamuy has an ainu consultant who is ainu but i'm not sure if having a consultant is quite the same thing?(edited)

DanitheCarutor

@Joichi [Hybrid Dolls] Yeah, it is. I'm glad you were able to know! I try to make it obvious since CWs are pretty much the main themes of my comic. xD

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

i think so

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

A consultant can apply to sensitivity readers, yes, but goes beyond that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like the mangaka saught to reprsent ainus too

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I know an MMA comic with an MMA consultant, for example

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

But couldn't two members of that group, say, Jews, say completely different things? How can you guess the information to be reliable based on their simply being a part of that group? Surely, there are things people look for when hiring these people?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I have artist friends who are my sensitively reader and one friend who has had experience with abuse So they help me with what’s good and what’s not to write about

I have artist friends who are my sensitively reader and one friend who has had experience with abuse So they help me with what’s good and what’s not to write about

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It's still gonna be WAY better than not getting any, Page.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I mean yeah but in that instance hearing from another perspective at least one person helps

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

At least you can be aware of possible....differences

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And people who have experience as sensitivity readers know some common issues to look for, as well.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Or cross reference

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yep

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It could be worse if the information is unreliable. What sort of qualifications does one look for?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like for me, reping viet folks and telling that to those saught viet rep in their comics

I told them "don't you freaking dare add tropes about the vietnam war I'm gonna come over to your house"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Friend of mine was a trauma survivor that I witnessed first hand

I suppose that qualifies!

But I think it helps to ask around

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

This stems from writers writing what they think an experience/ person group is without doing research and just being ignorant and offensive and a call for ppl to do better

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah like those stories should be left to the group experienced it instead

imo

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

TBH even when you do a ton of research on your own, a sensitivity reader can help you catch things that you never even thought of researching because you were unaware It Was A Thing

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like I still read some stories then they throw like the nam joke

and i'm like "I'm droppin this"

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Yea I don't get cis ppl writing about the trans experience. Its not ur story

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed ya

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm a lot of artists write from experience

Perhaps if you need a sensitivity reader for say...being bi for example

Maybe find an artist who themselves is bi(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like don't write how they got there, but write the experience they gonna deal with in the comic

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Because you get double: you get someone who’s bi and also someone who knows how to work the medium

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like i doubt cis persons have the nuance for trans folk, same goes for non-poc thinking is okay to do weird nuance things with poc

like lmao idk that's a pet peeve of mine if someone is writing an asian character and really just

"yea he's asian, idk what nationality but its there."

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Im not into someone who isn't a minority writing about a minority experience as a personal preference, but the sensitivity readers aren't exclusive to that. There was an example in story help in this server where someone asked about writing for a certain group of ppl and wanted feedback

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I...remember that krispy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah

carcarchu

i get what you're saying Tuyetnhi but i don't want authors to NOT include any representation just because they're scared of doing it wrong

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Several people warned him Including me

DanitheCarutor

A good example of sensitivity readers is Moana. The directors were old white guys, but they got Hawaiians to look over the script to make sure it wasn't disrespectful to the culture, or totally out of left field, since the tribe in the movie is based on Hawaiian tribes. Even though I didn't have sensitivity readers I still sought out people who experienced certain mental illnesses, medical professionals and mental health professionals willing the share their experiences and knowledge on the subjects I'm tackling before starting the comic.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye and I get that, I mean like if they trying to do extreme nuance takes

leave that for folks who experienced that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Asscreed games used to do the same too

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I ain't againist that kind of rep, but I have a paricular idea how to go about it that's all lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Tho i don't know if they were successful

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's wrong with someone writing a character who is transgender if they're not transgender? There's a lot of good research done on transgender issues both medical and societal as well as a lot of written record. I also don't see the issue with writing an ethnic minority as a non-minority. "Far Beyond the Stars" was written by white men and it speaks about racial issues brilliantly. Consultants on the intricacies of culture, I 100% understand, though, for your narratives; that does make sense. Professors are hired by filmmakers and writers for just that IIRC.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Sensitivity readers would not be a thing if people were not allowed to write characters outside of their own identity. Nobody's advocating that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ya

carcarchu

white people can write on poc's issues fine. but i have a problem when they act like they know more than the people who have experienced it first-hand

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Yep that's what I mean cara

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

As long as you’re respectful about it

And open to changing ideas

RebelVampire

Ok Im gonna step in here now and say we need to take a step back perhaps cause I feel this convo might be becoming too heated.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Heated?

I think you're misreading. I don't believe anybody here is heated over anything. I didn't know there was an argument, honestly. Is there? Am I losing my mind here?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Also these are instances that have been brought to light bc ppl want better rep from authours too. My last point on that!!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't think anyone's angry, but this is an extremely sensitive/ heavy topic so we're all treading carefully!

carcarchu

i'm with page i thought it was all very civil

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Remarkably so, frankly.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

agreed

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Usually these things spawn a lot of arguments. It's refreshing to see people, well, not do that.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye lol

RebelVampire

It is but this is the sort of topic where it can quickly hit the boiling point in a single message. And I've been seeing some warning signs in this convo. By all means if everyone can keep it civil, please continue. Consider this more a warning that right now, if you're getting angry, please step away from the convo cause I don't want to have to mute or ban anyway.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

aight

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Warning signs? I really am losing my mind.

DanitheCarutor

Let me know if I've said or will say something that might be insensitive. I try to be respectful, but I'm overly comfortable with uncomfortable topics and can be like a bull in a china shop sometimes.(edited)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Its just a sensitive topic, page

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

same with me, but i'm also speaking from experience as sensitivity reader too.

so yea lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh yeah, on most servers, when this comes up, you have those who take the opportunity to say white people should die, then the ones who say the same about people of colour. It all devolves.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what the

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh, b'ys, Discord is a wild place.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree with Keii, these are sensitive topics, I'm reading each one carefully without jumping into a fight

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I mean yeah, I been on discord since 2015 lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Gosh, I've been on it for years too! Seems so long ago I first came here!

Time flies, eh?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

still like, I find it kinda ridiculous someone is willing to jump like that

but yeah er, the topic at hand lol

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It doesn't need to go to that ridiculous extent to offend people, so I agree with Rebel on that we need to continue to be careful

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

(going to step out now but good convo y'all)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Offer people a bit of the word "race" and soon it turns into Nuremberg.

Good talking to you, mate!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Goodnight Eilidh!

Also I’m actually new on discord

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I think that its a good practice that writers today are more sensitive to the readers. Not in a hand holding way, but in a responsible way where their work is properly tagged and rated and the consistency of such content is a warning as well (like danis comic) It's important to want to improve the reading experience for many and keeping in mind that some topics need to be handled with some more care

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye agreed!

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In my field, I think it's a contest on how much emotion you can get out in one breath with gleeful abandon to how the reader feels.

carcarchu

but a problem with that is sometimes it feels like writers are held up to impossibly high standards and that they can't have ANY inkling whatsoever of any content that might possibly be construed as "problematique" by the purity police. the degree to which some authors are scrutinized is unreasonable and i think it often stems from having to be seen as a "pure" representation of whatever it is they are representing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Sometimes it's not even that the standards are "too high"

DanitheCarutor

@FeatherNotes(Krispy) Lol if the word limit allows it, every self-promo of my comic is plastered with age and content warnings, dang it!

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There will ALWAYS be those standards, they were always there. Ppl just didn't have that voice. I would not be worried about writing however, as i def see a problem with the purity thingie going around.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think carcarchu is talking about something very specific, Feather?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

there will be some rep be messy and rip that's part of being human and making mistakes

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There was an article talking about the direction of art and the consumers of such that covered this topic about the purity thing that i wanna findd

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like everyone can't be a saint

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

like when an ownvoices writer gets pitchforks and torches because their portrayal wasn't wholesome enough, and you are only allowed to write happy and wholesome stories about that group(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

like

keii omg

yeah i'll die in the torches that's ok

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Wait what

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah it's a thing

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Thats a thing

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What...????

carcarchu

yes that's what i'm talking about keii

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

What

carcarchu

i also have a video about it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

They're more upset at the story direction then

Not a purity thing

carcarchu

no it's a purity thing

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I agree with Carcarchu on this one. I feel like some people would be up in arms if I wrote a story where a white guy is the protagonist and a black guy is the antagonist. Some people just see race.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I know several LGBTQ peeps who are afraid to post their dark LGBTQ fiction because it might draw the attention of "only wholesome content allowed!!!" people

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WhgtttattTTT

nooo

DanitheCarutor

Oooh yeah, the puritans/sanitizers out there, they're a scary bunch. I've had a run in with a few people who've said my comic shouldn't be allowed to exist due to the content... and I've been called queerphobic... and that my comic is queerphobic torture porn... and other fun stuff. It happens.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WHHHHHHAAAAAAAT

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You'd be surprised how common this is.

RebelVampire

Yeah I have to say I've seen it a lot too

carcarchu

where have u been krispy that you haven't seen this?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I have been in my silent cave apparently

I also haven't been in fandoms for years if that helps lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You living like Patrick the Starfish?

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, we're kind of starting to get back into the olden days of demand for sanitizing art, people who work on darker content or horror get a lot of crap.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

This is patrick

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

All kidding aside, TL;DR: shit's kind of fucked in some ways.

carcarchu

i've even had run-ins with such people irl... hasnt been the most pleasant. i was once friends (note once) who tried to convince me that i should turn my het romance story into a lesbian one? for no reason other than she preferred to read that kind of content?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Ohhbsee thats where im confused

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Imagine if the sexuality were flipped. It would be outrageous.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

rip I had a comment a year ago that the main love interest is "too gay to be straight"

and i'm like "excuse u?"

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"Yeah, make it straight. I don't like gay stuff."

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

How is the relationship dynamic purity in that case?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's not purity police talk anymore, I think

carcarchu

not purity in that specific example feather but it's the same kind of person

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I’ve also had people come up to me and ask why I don’t write a more lighthearted story

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It's... a different issue

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

OB

MY GOSHHH

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Or “shadow, your shit is too dark why are you writing about this”

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

So ppl be telling u how to write ur chars now?

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"Life can only be happy and stuff :(( art can literally only be happyyy"

carcarchu

yeah this same person was also PISSED that there was a gem in steven universe who was "black-coded" and portrayed as a villain even though there were black coded gems who were not portrayed as villains as well

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Sorry Krispy Life be like that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Wthhhh

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Black coded?....what series have they been watching carcarchu lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ah dang

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

These ppl have 2 much time on their hands RIP They wanna rip apart media, go after something that deserves it (likethebig2incomicscough)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

They’re gate keeping(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Ah not too long ago I stumbled across an artist who drew more problematic stuff as a way to cope with trauma, which I guess was something their therapist suggested. Their stuff is pretty messed up, but someone started one of those "call out" videos on them, leading to thousands of people flooding their work with some of the most awful comments along with people trying to shut down their Patreon and social media accounts.

carcarchu

i later found out this person was also a terf so i ended the friendship right there when i found out

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Dani that’s...what the fuck

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Oh nasty

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

searches up terf Oh...

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I remember reading one person talking about how presenting "bad ideals" and whatnot in fiction had to be demonstrated to be bad ideals and not work and stuff and so on so forth.

carcarchu

i've seen that too dani

sadly more times than i can count

we all remember what happened to cucumber quest right?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It is terrible out there

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

What’s cucumber quest

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

What is cucumber

Quest oop

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

"What is cucumber?": An essay in being Socrates.

carcarchu

long story short cucumber quest was a children's webcomic that was pretty popular but the author got bullied off tumblr for being "problematic"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh no

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Tumblr has a lot of crazies.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I like her work

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh noooooooooo

I still go on tumblr but I carefully choose my blogs

Because I don’t want this shit

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

(All this being said, I wanna reiterate that just because those terrible pitchforks and torches people exist, doesn't mean all "I find this offensive" voices are invalid. Some things could genuinely be improved!)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Also def wanna say that even tho there will be these wolves waiting to tear 'non perfect' media apart, please dont feel like u have to stop writing, ever. Dont be afraid bc of these stories, yall have good heads on ur shoulders and obvs want to share ur experiences and that is something ur allowed to do

carcarchu

fyi she didnt stop making her comic because of the bullying thing, it was a separate, unrelated issue much later(edited)

i hear you keii

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I find it hilarious of the idea That there are people out there who tell someone not to write stuff like abuse even tho they’ve never experienced it

And the writers themselves have

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Oh, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

There was someone who tried to boycott assassins creed 2 bc the main char reminder her of her ex bf

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omfg

DanitheCarutor

It's really sad and a little terrifying if your work doesn't fit the sanitization standards... Sometimes I think of that "what if" chance just the right person finding my comic and launching a take down campaign on it. Which is why I'm totally fine with staying as a smalltime person in the shadows. Also people don't usually want to even read through my comic, so that's a plus.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

why lmaoo

oh dang dani that's one fear

but i'm also like "I wonder how folks react to me dealing with that like I ignore them"

would that be a power move or I'd be burning harder?

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Shit I never thought of a takedown campaign

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

It's a genuine fear for the creating community for sure, but ur voice is necessary. Ur story will resonate with ppl, and those who choose to use their time to tear it down obviously have nothing else better to do

DanitheCarutor

@keii’ii (Heart of Keol) Oh yeah, totally! People's feelings are super valid, and someone writing sensitive content should be open to listening to other people. I'm just talking about the extremists who think anything remotely uncomfortable shouldn't exist. Like, no.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Man, nowadays, people just throw shit and false accusations and all the rest at people because they don't like them and their stuff. They're truly pathetic.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I used to be so scared of a certain chapter in my comic bc its so violent at one point. It kept me up at night bc of these take down campaigns were a such a thing. But then i remember the content i enjoyed that inspired my own and im like Aint no one cancelling FMA for the niina part!

I mean unless its a topic that's super insensitive to a group or people/topic, which i know you're handling with sensitivity and grace, i wouldn't stop

carcarchu

this is a little bit sensitive so i'm going to put it in a spoiler there was another incident where an author received constant messages to kill themselves for writing gls when they did not at that time identify as a woman but then the author later did a whole comic about how how complicated her relationship with her own gender and sexuality was and that she de-transitioned and now once again considered herself to be both cis and lesbian and all those comments about her needing to kill herself for writing gl were so narrow-minded because you can never really know an author's situation if you aren't in their shoes

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's "gl"?

DanitheCarutor

Lol yeah, I do get worried a lot, especially about the upcoming chapters. Although that's not going to stop me from pushing forward, and telling the story how I want to tell it. If my online presence is murdered in the process, at least it will die for a good cause... at least good for me because I'll be venting everything out.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Whhhh!!! People just gettin into ppls business damn. That's horrible

carcarchu

girl's love

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

GIrl's love?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I def see ur story as a personal one with healing and building that will resonate with others Dani. And i think that's very important

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

What's that?

carcarchu

stories about girls loving girls

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's a genre that focuses on romantic relationships between girls ye

carcarchu

i really got chills reading that author's comic about her identity especially having seen those comments numerous times on her other comics

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

There was a similar incident except it was with an artist by the name of Zamii for supposedly drawing Steven Universe characters too thin (Yes, she did attempt suicide in the end, though she didn't succeed in her attempt).

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Is...is she okay now?

oh my god Page

I remembered that

The SU writers had to step in

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh rip sadly I remember that as well

carcarchu

i think she's doing ok! i'm not sure if that particular comic is still up but i can dm u it if u want shadow

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Yep! Not just the writers, even an executive producer.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Yes please carcarchu

And I think Rebecca sugar stepped in too? Not sure about that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Hopefully this serves as a reminder for all of us to have each others backs in such situations wow

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Another incident was in the Undertale fandom I think. One person gave a cookie to an artist at a convention they didn't like because of the ships they were doing. They author was suspicious, so, they cracked open the cookie. It was filled with needles.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

WHHHHHHYYYYYYY

carcarchu

oh my god i remember that page, what a horror story

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

........what the FUCK

carcarchu

always be careful about accepting food from events like that

DanitheCarutor

Geez, the thing about the GL author is sad... yet not surprising, and it's sad that I'm not surprised. @FeatherNotes(Krispy) Thank you so much! I went into my comic expecting absolutely no one would like it, so if it resonates with even one person that would be the best surprise. TvT

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yee haw I love solidarity

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, never accept food/drinks from strangers, including "fans"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

As someone who bakes and deals with food....that is horrifying

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

yeah rip that's horrifying

carcarchu

if it's packaged food like candy it should be safe, but still be careful if u have reason to be suspicious at all

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Remember, if you're suspicious, make them eat it too >:)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

omgllol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

And lace it with cyanide.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Gosh authours need content warning from readers it seems yikes

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Better safe than sorry.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Still not safe to have them eat it too lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I mean, hey, better second degree murder than dead.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I can think of some.... ways around that

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

"I'm alergic to needles"

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Give it to their friend

>:)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Give it to their spouse.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

And if it’s poison they’ll go down knowing they did it

Make a marvel villain

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

They're called "Widower".

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Page you and I have like minds

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Indeed we do.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm not comfortable with that -- like, what if their friend or spouse is being abused by them and is seeking to get out of that relationship

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

...This conversation is freaking amazing And I’ve never done individual page warnings for my comic - never felt it necessary. Maybe someday someone will yell at me about it, but... meh. The comic never goes into the really deep dark potentially-controversial stuff. So maybe it won’t be an issue. Back to catching up on all of this, WOW.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh god it would be a complicated meSS(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Oh god okay NO DONT GIVE IT TO THEIR SPOUSE

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

It doesn't matter. They must die for our agenda.

Morality? Pft.

If they're dead, they're no longer in the relationship.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I mean @LadyLazuli (Phantomarine) your story is really riveting But I’m not sure if you need warnings? I mean your story deals with...death

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

You see? Widower solves everything.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) I’m not sure! Someone tagged it with ‘limb loss’ elsewhere, which is debatable, haha. It’s something I would almost want others to tag. Sometimes I can’t stretch my mind far enough to imagine a page needing a trigger warning.(edited)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Wow...the more you learn, huh.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Yes- those specific type tags are always going to be elusive to keep track of- ur general rating is just what ur story needs

Def wanna point out too that TV ratings and warnings are what i go by and the most helpful to me as a reader and creator. Also video game warnings too are good to look at if people ever need examples of how to rate comics!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yep, ratings are all I need too. In my ‘about’ page I described my comic as “no darker than the darkest stuff in Harry Potter,” but I’m sure someone would still find something extremely dark in that, so... SHRUG

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Does anyone know of any of the big name comics that put trigger warnings or whatnot in their work? I dont read marvel/dc/etc so ive never seen if they took to rating their comics with any type of warnings?

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I do have kids reading so I want the parents to feel comfortable

DanitheCarutor

Is it weird that I rated my comic based on the level of nudity and lack of sex? Like, "Okay, these people are really naked but not in a sexy way, what is the rating for that?"

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'm thinking about snot girl rn and idk if their creators do that tbh other than marketed towards adults

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I read a couple of more-intense things from Image Comics and I’ve never seen any trigger warnings there either

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmm I’m not sure I remember reading Hellboy and not seeing any trigger warnings

carcarchu

krispy, the only time i can recall it is when i read Bradherley's Coach and that was actually put there by the translation team and not the author himself but i will say that the warning was extremely warranted with that one because i consider myself pretty desensitized to traumatic content but even this one really got me with each chapter being traumatic in it's own unique way

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Do they have ratings on the backs of the books like some manga?

Oh wow ty translation team

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Probably! I’m not sure if DarkHorse comics does it but they do have things like nudity and...portrayals of graphic death

carcarchu

if u read it on a website there is some degree of tagging for the content but i don't think that alone could have accurately prepared someone for what the comic explored

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I think its clear that by these examples we're all already doing better at being responsible for the content we share and produce.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I hope so I wonder if those big name comics received flak about not having trigger warnings

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I wonder about that too tbh

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Im sure to a degree? But no where near an indie creator would

Which is a whole other topic

carcarchu

i for one would love more tagging options for webcomics

makes it easier to find whatever niche content you're into!

genres alone just dont do it

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

That could work But there’s also a price to pay; less chance to get readers too

carcarchu

why is it less of a chance to get readers?

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I myself am looking at my Punisher comics, and there's no warnings anywhere, but i feel with an antihero like the Punisher, you go in expecting the gore and violence

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Hmmmmm....I guess my fear is that it’s a double edged sword carcarchu On one hand you can attract the readers you want But on the other hand you can also...possibly drive away readers who are mildly curious Some people need time to get invested in a story

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I guess some people will just avoid some tags no-questions-asked. Hopefully it’s the small minority that the trigger warning will actually help (in terms of anxiety) and not someone who’s writing off the trigger as problematic and will go on a tirade warning other readers about it. I know it goes both ways

carcarchu

oh i wasn't talking about trigger content tagging specifically

i was talking about stuff like being able to tag for example "witches" or "animals" or "music" whatever is a theme in your comic(edited)

guess it wasnt a logical throughline made sense in my head

eli [a winged tale]

I was looking for a universal way to show trigger warnings and came across this article. https://medium.com/@UntoNuggan/trigger-warnings-101-a-beginners-guide-e9fc90c6ba0a I guess for mine I’m thinking to add body horror and violence the more we go through the story... I do like the part about putting the informed consent power back to the reader’s hands

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I put both Fantasy Violence and Alcohol Use as general warnings for my comic. Alcohol is treated in a complex manner in CoR, both in a humorous light and as a way to cope, but I know there are a lot of folks that are triggered by the presence of alcohol.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I will be putting trigger warning in my comic but Ive wanted to write about mental health allegories for a long time as a personal self reflection.

I started to feel braver after seeing other creators boldly write about mental health topics in their comics.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Whispers the webcomic library is an excellent source and tool to find/avoid tags in comics

Luma does an excellent job with archiving the stories there and i hope yall have applied to have ur comics there too!

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Yes I watch Webcomic library on Twitter, Luma does such a good job curating comics(edited)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same! Highly recommended

carcarchu

i think i follow it on twitter but i don't keep up with it

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

They did these tags for my comic(edited)

carcarchu

maybe i should change that

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Super dedicated and a very great resource for webcomics!!

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I got these! I originally only put down 'limb loss - leg' but 'limb loss - arm' popped up too, and I'm like "You know... that's kinda true." It's a really good resource!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

OOoh I should check it out

Webcomic library, right?

carcarchu

what's the difference between independent! and independent

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

...that's a good question and I don't know the answer, haha

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

“Eventual LGBTQ” yes

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I AGREE!! I'm on Webcomic Library too. Mine is tagged as Mobility Aids since Nocturne uses a cane to walk

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

hmmm how do you add your webcomic onto there?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I went thru the process like

you send an email to luma/webcomic libary with a submission form

and she'll add it for u with the tags that are relelated to your comic

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Luma always puts up submission posts too Check out their tumblr/twitter!

DanitheCarutor

I can't imagine how much time it takes Luma to go through all those webcomics! These are the tags they put for mine:(edited)

They've kept it up pretty well in spite of it not being their cup of tea. The only thing I was ever iffy on was the 'sexual nudity' tag since I didn't intend for that but for the nudity to be uncomfortable/awkward, and I don't like the idea of people going into my comic for sexual arousal, but on well. To each their own, also it may be a presentation mistake on my part.

It's funny because I didn't think about one of my MCs being disabled until seeing this, I had to think for a moment before realizing "Oh yeah, I guess ocular albinism is considered a disability."

Kind of an embarrassing realization on my part.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ooo that's a lot of tags

this from my comic

DanitheCarutor

@shadowhood (SunnyxRain) Here is the submission template if you're interested. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1q48tZquhmNoGY_lcsE8FkByF614EISk_Pf3YoQKXYWA/edit?usp=sharing

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

probably not much is tagged since lmao it's 2 chapters in

DanitheCarutor

Haaaah yeah, my comic has a lot of... stuff. It'll probably get even bigger once the next two chapters are finished, if Luma is willing to go through them.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

ahhh thank you Time to submit

honestly I don't think there'll be a lot for my webcomic, since I just started lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

All a good resource regardless! And a good place to find comics to read!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

fair enough! Also...uhh....

what's nsfw text?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

oh

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

like, not safe for work things being talked about in the text of the comic typically sex stuff i imagine

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

or swearing lmao

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

oh god

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

get ready for a rideeeee

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

since someone saying "violence and gore" in the text wouldn't really count as NSFW lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

on my sailor ship lolol

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, NSFW text is swearing, slurs, discussion of NSFW subjects, sexual language I'm guessing. In my case it's the former three, at least I assume as much.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

..........ohhhh boy

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

mine is just my characters speaking without filter

lol

at least for the begining lolol

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

but yeah to me the limit for "what to warn people about" is generally dependent on the platform

those are my tags on archive binge

those are my tags on webcomic library (admittedly a bit out of date)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

lord almighty(edited)

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

on comic fury the only tag I have is high violence (with no nudity, sexual content, or swearing)

on tapas it's a page-by-page thing so I basically add the tag whenever there's blood on-screen

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Nsfw is not swearing like bitch, shit fuck Its more slurs i do believe

Also forgive me for swearing on main lol

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lol

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

OH DANI SAID IT ALREADY

So yes, what dani said

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yeah I was wondering how deep into curse/slur territory it’d have to go

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Gjs has swearing in it but its sailor mouth stuff, not slurs

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I’ve got fantasy slurs and I drop those RARELY because they still make me feel weird, haha

Dunno if I could ever commit to IRL ones in anything I do

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, I imagine if swears did count it would be how they're used, like if they were said in a derogatory statement and/or bullying.

But yeah, slurs, definitely. Haaaah

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

I don't think I could ever write about racial slurs either. The only touchy topics I will ever write are those I have experienced. Never experienced true racism so if I wrote about it I would feel like I'm faking knowledge of a huge and personal issue for other people

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Same. I leave that to people who can write about it better. Any discrimination I have in my stories is manufactured by the fantasy world and its own unique circumstances. I have some influence from real-world discrimination, but it's its own thing.

DanitheCarutor

Ah but slurs aren't just race, there are also slurs for gender and sexuality. (The -cough- 'T' and 'F' word.)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

yeah... racial slurs make me uncomfortable, but depends with the fantasy slurs, that could be creative if it's done to show the social issues of that world?(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel like even if you're only using fantasy slurs (speaking as someone whose comic has a use of a fantasy slur...), you need good understanding of what it's like to be on the receiving end of a slur IRL. This isn't to say "you need [this qualification] to be Allowed to use slurs in your fictional work!" but more like, how to make it resonate with the readers in the right ways, how to make it not gratuitous, etc.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ye

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I'm still learning myself. Like, I do have some experience dealing with racism toward me, but 1) it's nothing compared to the truly horrific stuff out there, and 2) even on comparable "levels" my experience could be very, very different from someone else's. All we can do is keep trying, keep learning.

Keep listening.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

I'd had a fair deal of racism and microagression being a native in the US for so long

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

exactly, like I experienced childhood racism about my cultural upbringing. But it's different for other people.(edited)

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

it's something that lmao won't go away but ye we have some different perspectives on how we can go about handling it

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

When I read a work or watch a film, I can tell if the creator has researched well, if it's racism similar to my experiences. It doesn't matter their background. But it'd be a nicer bonus if this came from a POC creator.(edited)

DanitheCarutor

Yeah, based on that I'm probably not the best person to have characters using slurs. While the slur present is gender based, I have a complicated relationship with... everything that isn't white/cis/het. I'm a mixed race (mom's side(very white passing): German Jewish, black Irish, Scottish, Native American. Dad's side: Native American, Spanish, Mexican.), my mom was raised in a church in a tiny town that was totally against non-white people and race mixing, according to her when I was born people would come to the hospital to gawk at me. I've never been called a slur maliciously, but casually and I never noticed it until I was older after everyone naturally stopped. Every experience and memory I have of slurs has been of the "yikes!", "Woah, you really said that." variety, so I kind of project that energy a little bit in my comic. But in the form of a very yikes casually transphobic character.

For clarity on the cis/het thing, my family was also extremely bigoted but would hide it under casual language, so it never sounded queerphobic until you process what they said.

Not related to me, but I understand needing to experience racism to write it, although I think it can still be accomplished well if the person is empathetic and does a ton of research. Kinda like anything else sensitive, you just need to be really educated on the subject.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I agree with you Dani. Sadly some creators just don't have that empathy and want to write a fantasy token character. I had awkward story conversations before on race. "what do you think about this ambiguous Asian character? I'm thinking of a Japanese name, sounds Asian enough?" I always cringe inside(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I usually bring in other people to write about those things I haven't experienced. Friends, generous volunteers, etc.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think it's 100% OK to write about things you haven't experienced. I don't think J.K. Rowling experienced being an adolescent male chosen one in a magical college, but she still wrote about it...and made a Hell of a lot of money.

DanitheCarutor

Lol that's why I added in doing research, which I think brainstorming with experienced people counts, you're still educating yourself. I agree with everyone on experience being preferred, although I am on the anti-censorship side with art and storytelling, no matter how cringe it is.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ofc i think it's okay, but I personally don't feel comfortable doing it

i even feel a little weird writing male characters

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

If we can only write ourselves and our experiences, we're plain not good writers.

That's my view on the matter.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Again, I don't think any of us is advocating Necessary Qualifications To Even Attempt. This is a much more nuanced topic

I've never been a tall beefy dude, but that's what my MC is.

Never been a parent, but I write parents.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yeah, "make the effort to write this well" is very different from "don't write this"

And there's plenty of people criticizing JKR for how she handles specific topics...

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

yeeeeah....

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Including me.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

JKR is probably not a good example to bring up as a positive example for this topic, simply because of the issues that can REALLY distract from why she's being used as an example.

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

I like writing male character more often since I'm less stressed about writing the opposite gender, I know it's my comfort zone. I based some of the boys on my guy friends and have fun with the story. Though I'm making a difference by insisting on adding women more and pushing for strength and vulnerability.(edited)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

J.K. turned out to be lacking a few brain-cells, but my point is that you can very easily write foreign experiences; every good writer does that all the time (as you all do yourselves!) and I think that extends to writing characters no matter the colour of their skin, sexuality, or gender identity.

DanitheCarutor

True, I haven't seen gatekeeping here, I'm just giving my thoughts on it. A while back on another server I read a conversation where some people were dissing the person who made Magical Boy on Tapas because they're not trans, even though they did a lot of research beforehand. I was kind of reflecting that, but I also empathize with people who feel uncomfortable with people who've never experienced a certain form of oppression writing about it.

Pff I've never been a janitor, but dang it! You can't stop me from having a janitor character!

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Janitors are the coolest guys, I'm telling ye.

Most chill people in the land.

B'ys, they can get along with anyone, I swear.

DanitheCarutor

They're like real life superheroes.

Deo101 [Millennium]

We're not saying not to write other skin tones, gender, etc. Just to be sensitive about it and aware that you can't extrapolate someone else's life experiences from your own, you have to ask

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

there's a difference between writing a janitor and writing a touchy topic like racism. Anyways, even if I was writing a janitor I'd do a ton of research on the job

Deo101 [Millennium]

Sorry I use a cane and I can tell when people didn't ask someone who uses a cane what it's like. It goes the same for a lot of things

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I'm not saying you are saying that! Simply addressing something I've encountered before.

I've used a cane before, though temporarily. It was...a pain in the ass, honestly.

Well, more like a pain in my leg. And my arm.

DanitheCarutor

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) Sorry, I was joking since Keii was talking about writing muscular guys and parents. It would be sad if I didn't know the difference between racism and an occupation. Lol

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

In any case, I don't think that writing somebody of an ethnic minority necessitates much on its own. Delving into racial issues, sure, yeah that requires a lot, but I wouldn't say that of writing the character itself.

I'd say the same of sexuality and gender identity if you're not delving into the respective issues thereof. If you know what you're doing, i don't think there's too much to it.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Page, Rambler Extraordinaire! Yeah, I think that's what a lot of us are saying. There is a difference between writing a character who's [this identity] vs writing a story that's all about exploring that identity.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

The latter requires a lot more research, agreed.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

oh i know @DanitheCarutor , you write a lot of lgbt characters after all. just adding my thoughts, not diagreeing

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

"If you know what you're doing" is the tricky part though

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Well, that's not that difficult in most cases. There is a sea of available literature.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

There's.... the problem of marginalized folks pointing out concerns in a work, and non-marginalized people dismissing their concerns because they don't see the issue.

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's also really easy to ask a person for their real life experience

People are usually, in my experience, more than willing to take some time and answer a few questions.

DanitheCarutor

On the Magical Boy thing, like I said, it wasn't you all, it was people on a different server and I wanted to bring it up since it's related to the topic. To do a more serious comparison, I've never had psychosis or schizophrenia but I'm writing a character like that. I did a lot of research beforehand though, like, A LOT.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Like for disabilities it's very easily to find all kinds of Medical information, but almost no first hand experience is available. So what happens is people are very accurate medically, but then extrapolate what living like that is like and still end up with a disengenuous story

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Surely, there's available literature on the subject? I'm sure that I could find some.

Deo101 [Millennium]

And Dani, same with me and schizophrenia. It's for a future comic, but I've been researching it and interviewing people for years now to be sure I get a story that would at the very least not hurt them

I mean I would think a better resource would be YouTubers with those things, actually.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

For a lot of topics, it's easier to find a firsthand experiencer willing to talk to you than to find some existing literature on the exact thing you didn't know you needed

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah like My condition is very rare and the best you could find on it for firsthand experience is like. A forum that's super old and inactive

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I still remember one review where the person said "I have a certain disability, and I'm sure this author doesn't have it -- but they know someone who does -- because they're describing the visible symptoms with uncanny accuracy, but are guessing all wrong about how it feels/how it affects your life in invisible ways."

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That's a huge pitfall, I feel. There can be a big sensitive thing that you aren't even aware is a thing; therefore, you don't think to do any research on that facet.

Deo101 [Millennium]

It's really easy to make a post on social media like "hey can I interview people with ___ for a writing project?"

DanitheCarutor

Openness depends on the topic. It's really hard getting people's experiences with certain mental illnesses, also the small number of people suffering from it. I had a really hard time finding people willing to talk about certain things, especially professionals since they usually don't want to talk to you without paying money for it.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

^ That's also a good point.

Deo101 [Millennium]

That's true

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I think we're going back to the purity thing. You can't expect someone to truly represent the "invisible ways" it affects you very well considering they're...invisible.

Deo101 [Millennium]

You can ask

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

But I would definitely recommend trying to reach out to people with firsthand experience, and seeing if that's an option.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

I've been able to shoot emails off to professors before for questions. They're usually happy to answer a question or two.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

This is not at all like the purity thing IMO.

DanitheCarutor

A decent resource I found was a mental health forum, you have to get accepted to join, but it's basically everyone talking about their experiences with being mentally ill or being a volunteer for mental health care centers. Unfortunately there aren't any psychologists on the forum... Just nurses and caregivers on the non-ill side.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Again, there's a spectrum here...there's all kinds of possibilities between "how dare your extensive research have a single imperfection" and "wow, you didn't even try".

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, and it's not even a single lane spectrum! It's very complex and multifaceted/multilayered

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And we're talking about this for marginalized people, but it can apply to any group/culture/situation you're not part of -- just look at any story where a European writer has an American character drive across the US in a couple hours

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

Lmaoooo

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Or americans write Germans getting lost in their woods.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Alright, multilayered? How so? It's a spectrum from "B'y, you're writing about a black man in the 1700s being exalted in America" to "Why am I reading this ethnic studies textbook?"

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Naw mate, pick a direction and you‘ll find a street or at least marked trail in half an hour.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Okay, I can't answer that without draining my energy reserve for the next 20 weeks

DanitheCarutor

Lmao! As dumb as it sounds, something like that can also apply to animals. Like the thing Disney did with lemmings, and how Jaws portrayed sharks which caused this spike in shark hunting because everyone thought they were these monsters.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

Would it be possible to summarize?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

We've talked about a bunch of different aspects already -- like, how well did you research the medical symptoms vs. how well did you represent the day-to-day experience

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

No (at least for me), precisely because it's so complex and multilayered.

RebelVampire

This is a good convo and I am happy everyone has remained civil. That being said, I kind of feel it's gone a bit off-topic for an extended time regarding this week's question

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it's hard to know what's worth a mature tag or not when even the websites themselves are vague. I started off with a character having the trait of cursing a lot, but then dropped that as i became paranoid of wts content guidelines

but i've gotten a decent audience since then and wts hasn't deleted my pages or anything so(edited)

i have no idea what the line is

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Webtoons is extra mysterious

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I host my own stuff, so I just put warnings up when a specific storyline is going to be more intense than the comic's average

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

because their comment system will auto censor words like "vague" (it becomes "***ue" or something like that) so you'd think they really don't want ANY cursing?

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

yes! that has happened to me

Deo101 [Millennium]

Su***ious

Is one I see a lot

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

someone commented "sperm" on my pages once so i know wt doesn't censor that at least

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...is that why the kids these days are just saying "sus" now

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

******in's Creed

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i don't understand what is the swear in suspicious?

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

lmao

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

It's a racial slur in some regions

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

ohhhh

i know what you mean

yeah rip

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

An auto-censor like that just makes a normal discussion forum seem 100x more scandalous/insulting than it actually is...

Deo101 [Millennium]

I got used to talking around then from mmo games ahahaha

Those chats that squelch you if you say one curse or something close to it by accident

But! On topic, I think asking whether something is too mature is a good idea, having a kind of beta audience or sensitivity reader kind of thing.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I think it's fine to make your own judgment calls as long as you're consistent, so readers know the same things will be reliably warned for

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

a beta reader wouldn't neccessarily know more about wt than me though

when it comes to blurry content guidelines that is

might help with mature or triggering content

because your tolerance might be different from other people's

Deo101 [Millennium]

Oh I mean like "hmmm I think this is a bit much. Do you think this is a bit much?"

And they go "na this seems like pg 13 to me." Or "hmmm I think it could probably freak someone out you might wanna lightly warn."

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

it's a blurry line because sometimes an arm getting ripped off stylishly is less triggering than a realistic depiction of like, a fingernail being ripped off

just gotta go by feeling, i suppose

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yep

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I agree that this is a case where there's no reason to think a beta reader has better judgment than you have yourself

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

yeah my friends are all like me

DanitheCarutor

WTs is weird. I used to have my comic up there totally uncensored, they featured it on the front page for about a month, but when someone flagged the nudity they wouldn't put the pages back up. Like... you think they would have known already? The nude scene is within the first 20 pages.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

and don't think much of gore and swearing and such

fuck dani don't say that you're making me paranoid again

RebelVampire

Classic it only takes one person to ruin something for everyone else

DanitheCarutor

@Eightfish (Puppeteer) From what I've seen of your nude scenes, I don't think anyone will really notice. I didn't even notice until you brought it up one time on here... or maybe it was in the Webcomic Updates server.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

i hope so but as rebel said only takes one staff member

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Can i just chime in to say that the auto censoring with what y'all have said about WT really turns me off from that platform. Not into a site having that power, regardless of who uses it. It's like we said here, be responsible with your work with tags, but that extra hand in the pot makes me think of tumblr style censors and im not a fan.

Does tapas do that too?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Webtoon doesn't really have tags, it just has a toggle for a series being mature

They both do

So they don't get removed from app stores

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Ye i guessed as much

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Tapas has this feature that lets creators tag individual episodes as mature. BUT there is an additional layer -- if your comic is too mature even with the mature tag, they're forced to hide it from their iOS app, due to Fruit Company regulations.

DanitheCarutor

WT is trash, and the reader base is made up of children, don't go there! Tapas is pretty alright, they're fine with my comic being uncensored there, and they don't censor comments.

Yeah, there's what Keii said about the Apple app too.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

And it's up to Fruit Company to determine whether it's too mature or not. (Mine is too mature because of body hair, and I was told they'd put it back on the app if I erased the body hair in a specific episode)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Still not a fan of that kind of censorship. And i agree with dani

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

ohh yeah i remember that body hair thing kei

DanitheCarutor

Oh crap, were we not supposed to name drop the app?

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Excuse me body hair

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Webtoons on the other hand will straight up remove any too mature episodes across all of their platform...s (site, iOS, android) if Google says "this is too mature"

Deo101 [Millennium]

I don't think it's censorship, it's more not allowing certain things on your platform

They're not saying you can't make it just that you can't post it there

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

It is censorship U cant post ur piece in its intended form

Like....body hair Wtf

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think that depends on how you define censorship

In any case, it's definitely not ideal.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That is so .... Like Way to show what standards they want

DanitheCarutor

Gah the body hair thing. Thinking about it, I never got contacted by Tapas about my comic's mature content, but they probably knew trying to censor it would be a lost cause. Lol They probably just threw straight off the app.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

That's horrible Dani

DanitheCarutor

Naah, I don't mind. It's still allowed on the desktop site, and that's the only version I use so it's like nothing ever happened.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Still a gross move on their part. Not enthused with the passion to appease app stores with removing content that isn't 'suitable', but that is a diff convo.

DanitheCarutor

As one last derailing bit, if you're ever looking for a hosting site, Comicfury is the best for mature and adult work. They don't censor ANYTHING! Except hate-speech.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Oh i keep seeing more and more talk about that! Can i ask u more about it in shop talk?

DanitheCarutor

Sure, go ahead! I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Wow

Just caught up

Back to the warnings thing...(edited)

In my experience, there are certain reasonable leaps in seriousness in comics, and other times when it appears jarring and out of nowhere, but in that case, I think it's simply bad writing, unless of course, it's a genre like horror.

But I think an author deciding to put content warnings should be up to the author on a case by case basis.

There are simply too many variables to come up with specific ground rules

As an example, I have a scene later on in my comic where a child dies. I don't show how it happens, but I was planning on showing the body afterwards. Nothing too gruesome, but definitely some broken bones. And I have been told completely opposite things, that it should be okay because I'm not showing the actual death, and on the other side, that showing the body at all is terrible, and I shouldn't do it. My concern is... If I don't show the body, how will the readers know that the child is dead? And how will I show the reactions of the other characters? It's just too complicated and specific of an issue to rely on general guidelines.

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

B'ys, the real answer is to stop writing webcomics altogether! I'm telling ye! no webcomic, no problem!

I mean, sure, we'll be bereft of artistic output and dreams will be crushed...but hey, less stuff to do. Silver lining.

Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!)

what you mean most of us has made somewhat a living doing comics lol(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Lol, I want to make comics so uhhhhh???

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Aw...That sounds sad but depends how the body is presented? I mean I've seen mystery games with afew dead characters? Not a child yet.(edited)

Sometimes I've seen Anime do a light censorship by showing a bloodied child's shoe or gloves, or an arm but it can be disturbing(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It's just that... dead children is a sensitive topic

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, a limp arm is what I often see

DanitheCarutor

I think it's because showing dead children is considered taboo? Like some games where you can kill other characters won't give you the ability to kill children, as well as movies that show character deaths won't show a child's death. It might be too insensitive for some people because children are innocent, and many people have had/are having kids, so showing them might be extra upsetting? At least that's what I assume is the reason behind someone saying not to show the child's death.

Ah, didn't notice Cronaj already said it in much fewer words.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

Ah yes, that reminds me that there are places where I put up different warnings than what the comic has - my side stories. Since my side stories are often ways for me to explore different styles of storytelling than the comic proper, they can often have different themes. Off the top of my head - one side story I wrote had a warning for cussing, one had a warning for descriptions of violence against a child, and one had a warning for getting in a bit deep into a character's PTSD. (oddly enough, both of those latter warnings were in reference to the same character, just with a time gap of a few years. though the PTSD in the one story involved a completely different event than the violence depicted in the other story. pejiba's had it rough)

Page, Rambler Extraordinaire!

@Tuyetnhi (Only In Your Dreams!) , @Cronaj (Whispers of the Past) , I was making a joke. :p

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

I think the worst thing I'm going to show visually is a dead body and the whole story is about there being a dead body so I don't feel the need for any additional internal content warnings. I think my rule of thumb is just not to show anything that would be more shocking or upsetting than the premise of the comic would have you expect, and to have all warnings at the outset.

I agree with snuffysam's approach to separating darker and scarier content into side stories with their own content warnings or at least I would take a similar approach myself. It's okay to make stories that depict difficult topics but I think it's better not to disrupt the flow of a more lighthearted story if it can be avoided. Exploring difficult topics outside of the main story is a good solution to that

sagaholmgaard

I put a content warning the first time there was some violence and blood in my comic, since the previous pages had been mostly cute so I figured it was warranted. I'm coming up to the second time something potentially triggering happens- a guy gets killed 'on screen', but I don't think it's rendered in a worse way than the first time so I'm considering whether it's good to warn every time a scene like this comes up or if the first warning is enough to readers to have opted out if they dont want that sort of content

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I had a read-up on age ratings and found out Nyx+Nyssa would fall under PEGI-16 due to realistic violence towards human characters, and will simply stick a 16+ sign into the corner of my page, which links to a conscience explanation why.

Desnik

So recently I've joined a writer's group and they ask people to stick warnings upfront so that readers can opt out of reading something that will upset them. I've found that it's helpful to warn for things that cause certain phobias, religious criticism, and minority experiences depicted w/o a sensitivity reader's guidance. I would also warn for drugs/alcohol usage since reading about that kind of experience can be a trigger for addictions.

I don't tend to write about anything super visceral but when reading I know I appreciate warnings about certain types of gore or violence

I think it's beneficial to be extremely specific with tags because for some reason YA-rated stuff can be very violent (so that makes age-based ratings completely nonsensical). Also not every story is going to treat serious issues with the same gravity so I think it's helpful to mention if some aspect is being treated in a melodramatic/unrealistic manner on purpose.(edited)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

Like a standard comic might take say... 10 pages or more. Webtoon tends to shorten this roughly by half. Or by the 3rd or 4th episode, that major plot point happens.(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I feel "have a natural flow" is easier said than done, and also can mean very different things for different stories, and even different readers responding to one story.

(Maybe we should move this to shop talk as it's not relevant to this week's topic?)

Joichi [Hybrid Dolls]

oh this is in shop talk? ok, I thought creator babble was relevant to this.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Nah, creator babble, if I understand it correctly, is specifically for weekly questions. This week's question is about content warnings

AntiBunny

My story is heavily inspired by film noir, so I think the occasional burst of violence should be expected.

[whateverisbeautiful]

Reveling in Richonne

119: The Commitment (8x13)

From the jump, I’ve been saying that Rick and Michonne are magnets cuz of the way they are always so drawn to each other and close to each other figuratively and literally. 

So, of course, seeing a moment where these magnets feels like there’s some space between them hurts cuz it’s just not the way they’re meant to be.

But what I love about Richonne is that they are never on the rocks even during rocky times. 😌

And this scene in 8x13, while tough, still provides some underlying hope and proof of the connection and commitment they always have with each other. 💯

So the episode starts with the group executing their defense against the Saviors. My favorite part of this whole fight is “part two” of it, cuz the whole time I was like where is Rick but then he came out and went Savage Rick on errybody. 👏🏽 Including almost Siddiq, which I’m glad he caught himself lol. 🙈

As they chase the Saviors away, Rick and Maggie talk and Maggie shares how she wanted all of them dead and Negan most of all, cuz Negan isn’t just some dictator to her, he’s literally her husband’s murderer. So it makes sense that she’s this hungry for his demise especially considering that her husband had the most graphic and brutal death on the show. 

(Side note: I miss Glenn so much. 😢 They really gave the character with the best heart the most brutal death.)

The next day there’s yet another scene of Daryl and Tara switching off on their feelings towards Dwight again. That whole arc between them really had me like...

So at this point we’re a few minutes into the episode and I was starting to be like alright where is Rick and Michonne cuz, at this point with TWD, when R&M aren’t featured that’s usually when I start asking myself...

 And fortunately they do get a personal moment between them this episode, even though it’s a tough one to witness. And not cuz it isn’t well acted (their scenes are always excellently acted), but it’s just cuz R&M feeling even remotely distant just feels so wrong cuz again, it’s so not the way it’s meant to be.

These two are magnets so when they feel separate it feels off and makes my heart break. 💔Like fr, at first seeing that TWD wanted me to watch them in this state had me like...

But because this is Richonne and they are legitimately soul mates, even this moment provides evidence to why they actually are going to be just fine and how they still very much love each other. ☺️

So Rick is in the kids room taking down the wood panels that cover the window. So far every time we’ve seen Rick since losing Carl he’s doing something to keep himself busy and active and I was like; Rick please for my sake I need you to take a break lol.

And then the wider shot shows that Michonne is standing in the doorway (and no lie, now that it’s been a few months, seeing the crib in this shot is low key restoring some of my Richonne baby fever).

Even from a distance you can tell that Michonne is concerned about Rick and is here cuz she knows that he needs some steadying.

So then she slowly walks in, which I didn’t interpret as being nervous to talk to her man or walking on egg shells, but more so like she just knows to be sensitive with him while he’s in this headspace. 👌🏽

Immediately this moment feels familiar because of how many scenes we’ve seen of Michonne walking in to be there for Rick when he’s feeling lost. This moment, however, has a difference because it’s the most difficult loss this time.

As she walks in, Rick does turn and look at her and lingers for a moment but then he turns away to continue distracting himself with the wood panels. 

And I’m definitely sympathetic to the whirl wind of emotion and pain Rick is feeling right now but I admit at first when I saw him seeming to push her away I was looking at Rick like...

Just a little lol. Cuz I understand what’s going on, I just so badly wanted Rick and Michonne to be there for each other right now, not just on one person’s end.

So then very gently Michonne says, “Saved you this turnip” which is adorable. ☺️ She’s legit his wife, y’all. 🙌🏾

Like part of why it was upsetting to see Rick not be there for Michonne is cuz she so clearly is always thinking of him. 

Like I just picture the fact that everyone was probably getting their food and having to ration it out and Michonne knows Rick isn’t there to get his so she makes it her responsibility to get him something, cuz she knows he needs sustenance and he’s not going to get it on his own while he’s being preoccupied with everything else.

Rick says, “Yeah. I’m okay.” and I’m glad he doesn’t say it in a rude dismissive way but more a deflective way, cuz if he had said it in some ungrateful way we woulda had problems lol. But Rick could never disrespect Michonne cuz he’s a real one. 💯😌

But this is how you know Rick is in a bad space tho, cuz you can see he’s trying to keep her at an emotional distance right now, which usually when they’re in the same vicinity they are so locked into each other and magnetically connected. And it looks like it takes some legit effort for him to go against that and sort of shut her out.

Again I was like; Rick the one thing you cannot do is shut her out. Of everyone, she’s the one that he needs to let in both for him and for her, who is in pain too because she opened her heart to Carl so much that he became her son and best friend so she’s in the same boat.

Michonne knows this is Rick moving to move away from it. And what’s sweet is that while Rick can’t look at her here, Michonne’s eyes stay on her man.

I think one of the reasons Rick can’t look at her seems to be because she reminds him of not just the hard times they went through together in losing Carl, but so much of the good times with Carl too. Michonne represents so much good and Rick is shutting out anything good cuz he’s pretty convinced he doesn’t deserve it.

Like I really think that’s what it boils down to; he knows he needs her, he knows he can let himself grieve and process with her and that she will love him through this, but he doesn’t think he deserves it so he’s pushing it away. 

There could even be a sense of guilt too, cuz he knows she’s in pain and yet he’s not being the shoulder for her to cry on the way he knows he needs to be. 

They are also both aware of how interconnected they are, so Rick knows if he looks at her and lets her in the way he should then that’s going to be the thing that breaks the shell he’s trying to stay in.

He knows she sees him on the deepest level and if he looks over and let’s himself really see her too then he won’t be able to help feeling his honest feelings, and he’s running from those right now.

But Michonne can look at him cuz I think she’s come to know that letting that shell or wall that we put up collapse will be scary but will be more healing and freeing than hiding behind it. 

And when he looks away she walks closer to him which I love. I’m telling you a lot of the significant stuff in this scene is found in the movement.👌🏽 Cuz he’s forcing himself to be caught up in the work but she’s focused on him and moving closer to him rather than accepting the distance.

She says his name, and the way she says it you can tell she wants to take down this wall and just really talk to him and let Rick just be real about where he’s at right now instead of this whole pretending to be fine. He’s not okay and they both know they know it.

And it becomes even more clear that Rick knows she knows, cuz he hears her say his name and then immediately starts talking about how Maggie turned off the generator and “the kids are gonna need air in this heat.” 

There’s a lot of weight to this line cuz it’s Rick trying to protect kids as he feels he wasn’t able to do that for his son. Its an attempt to communicate with her too but It’s also trying to change the subject cuz he doesn’t feel ready to discuss the deeper issue, and just in hearing the way she says his name he knows that’s where it could go.

Michonne watches him and then puts down the turnip and steps even closer to him. Cuz y’all magnets don’t never quit. 💯😋

I love that Rick has a woman who is this adamant to not give up on him ever. She told Rick she’s still with him in season 5 and every season she proves how true that statement is. 🙌🏾That’s one of the million reasons why she’s a character to look up to.

You can literally sense how much she wants to reach for him or connect with him but she also knows that he’s going to need his time. Like I said, the real Rick is buried under this jaded Rick and it’s going to be a process of getting real Rick back out.

Then more tentatively she asks “Can I take a look at that cut? I have some stuff to clean it.” And y’all, again, she is such a good wife. 👏🏽👏🏽

I feel like it’s totally fair to imply she specifically went and got stuff to clean it for him. The way she so longs to tend to him is so precious cuz it really is like she wants to help mend him and his broken heart all while having a broken heart of her own. 😭

I really wish we would have seen Michonne and Rick’s first interaction when he returned from his Negan exchange in 8x12, but it’s nice that we at least get insight to how clearly the main thing she cares about is that he got back safe and that he get healed up from the wound. 

Seeing her concerned for him and wanting to help also made me hope that this would help Rick see that leaving and wildin out like he did in 8x12 doesn’t just affect him, it affects her too.

The tone that she speaks to him is so loving here and I do hear a bit more hesitancy in this line because she’s seeing that he’s pushing away which usually never happens, but I love that she initiates anyway because nothing is going to make her stop fighting for her man on any level.

Rick says “Let me get this done first.” and the main thing I hear in this line is fear. He’s nervous to allow himself to be around the person who can help him be vulnerable. 

But notice he doesn’t say no or just completely shut down the offer. To me that shows that it’s still in him to give her and what she wants a chance.

So Michonne steps away deciding to let the subject go for now and I appreciate that she never over-pushes. She gets that right now Rick’s not ready to face everything and he’s set on finishing this task for the kids since he sees it as a way to be useful as a father. 

Michonne continues to look at him as she steps away, definitely sad that he’s right in front of her and yet he’s so far away. 

And even as she walks back she looks at him one more time sort of accepting that he’s not going to be able to fully connect with her right now and I hate seeing them like this, y’all. 😢 Like this really had me like...

But what I do love about this moment is that she’s not stepping back to walk out of the room or just to drop this moment completely. No Sis is going over to the other window to help her man with the goal he’s set on right now, which is taking off these panels for the kids. 👏🏽👏🏽

I love it for a lot of reasons and one of them is cuz one of the many things R&M have in common is always wanting to be useful. 

But I especially love it cuz this act of hers says; I’m not leaving you. I’m staying by your side and meeting you where you’re at. Like you don’t want to talk and that’s fine, but I’m going to help you one way or another.

This moment reminds me of 7x04, when Michonne decides to return to the room and talk things out with Rick rather than walk away. She never just walks out on him and it just illustrates how much Michonne loves this man.

And it’s even a nice little symbolic visual the fact that Michonne is able to remove the panels just with her hands where as Rick is taking the more aggressive approach with the axe. I feel like it speaks to the contrasting ways they’ve been dealing with everything.

And this moment also confirms what I said earlier which is that all versions of Rick love Michonne. Because even this Rick, that’s at his most distant from her, knows he needs to be real with her. 

Like I think seeing the way she compassionately meets him where he’s at really convicts him and reminds him that he’s got a special woman who genuinely cares about him and he knows he has to make some effort to connect with her.

So he finally stops working on the panels and he closes his eyes for a moment almost like trying to let real Rick have the reins again to open up with his woman the way it should be. 

And we see Michonne look over cuz she notices that he stopped and she stops too cuz I think she’s so ready to catch him if he’s breaking down. So even just in a silent moment she senses that there’s something happening with him right now. And I think what’s happening is Rick remembering who he’s with and why he has to let her in cuz anything else would go against who they are.

So then a bit more open this time he says “I saw him at the back of the convoy. That’s why I did it.” And, just like in the van in 8x10, Michonne faces him completely because Sis wants to be present with him so much.    

Rick takes a breath and says “I had to try. I had to.” Y’all, that’s real Rick trying to communicate with her. Like his inner world is chaotic and pulling him every direction right now, and yet there’s still a sense of him wanting to fight to be present with her, cuz he can’t not fight for her.

I appreciate that Rick gives more of an explanation to his actions, cuz he knows if anyone deserves to know why he’s doing this it’s Michonne. 

Like Michonne is his wife so her love and support is on a whole other level and so his openness with her is on an elevated level too. 👌🏽

Even if right now it’s just a baby step, this exchange between them is still so significant. Cuz they could’ve just let this be a moment that created a wedge. Michonne could’ve walked out of the room and Rick could’ve just let them work in silence when she decided to stay. But in both of them doing the opposite, it’s them making an effort to stay connected.

And when he says this, the scene ends with Michonne continuing to watch him and I’d say she knows this is him trying to extend some sense of connection.  

I know in real time this scene was unsettling cuz we’ve been blessed to see R&M be so united for so long. But that unity isn’t gone even in this moment, cuz their relationship and their love goes too deep to ever truly be broken.

Like what’s so powerful about Richonne is that things aren’t always perfect for sure and they have to carry the weight of the world sometimes, but they always choose each other. 🙌🏾

So I never felt like this moment was a breaking point for Richonne. And I especially rebuked the notion of them potentially splitting up after this scene. The mere thought of that had me legit like…

It’s of course super hard to see them this way, but in Michonne staying and helping and in Rick opening up despite his instinct to shut down, it reveals how Richonne is going to make it. 

Cuz even in the toughest of times they still don’t give up on each other or shut each other out completely.

Besides, staying apart too long is practically impossible cuz magnets. 😋

And y’all…this next episode makes that wonderfully, wonderfully, wonderfully clear. (lol if I said I was extra before…8x14 gon’ be a whole other level 😂) 

But before I get too ahead of myself lol, there’s still a bit more 8x13 to talk about in this post. Like how there’s later a scene where Rick is sitting alone outside of Hilltop and there’s this sad moment where he can hear Henry and Carol talking about how Henry would’ve died if he had went out there.

It’s painful seeing Rick be in this almost comatose state and also taking in this conversation cuz you know that probably everything around him makes him think about Carl. 

And then Siddiq approaches and he also offers to look at the cut and Rick somewhat reluctantly lets him. Which, y’all, I was a little salty that he was about to let Siddiq help with the cut when just earlier Michonne offered to do the same thing, but I think this just further proves how Rick knew spending time with Michonne would bring him out of this shut down state that he’s pretty convinced he has to stay in, so he’d rather let Siddiq do it. 

As Siddiq sits with him he tries to make a deeper connection with Rick and I was like Siddiq that’s sweet boo but there’s no way Rick is going to take this in at this point and time and sure enough, Homeboy gets up cuz he’s not trying to have any heart to hearts right now.

And then the next time R&M are together in 8x13 is the final scene where they stand over the graves after the whole walker debacle. 

And I love seeing them together even tho it’s also sad to seem them in so much grief and to know they have to be around so much loss during this time. 

The part that I wasn’t feeling tho is seeing Rick walk away. Cuz seeing him leave Michonne just is never the way. 

And I get he’s still at a point where he’s running from dealing, but I was still like...

Cuz if he can just stay with Michonne he’d get so much better. 💯

But sometimes it takes a longer process to fully embrace the healing, and in this next episode we finally get to see that embrace. Won’t He Do It! 🙌🏾😋

gif sources: michonnegrimes carlschandler alloutwar thewalkingdeadgifs

[nightmareonfilmstreet]

The King vs. The Kubrick: 38 Years of THE SHINING

I have sat down in front of my computer a dozen times over the past week, trying to come up with a new angle to write about 1980’s The Shining. It is impossible. This film has been written about, analyzed and over-analyzed (see the documentary Room 237, and you will agree) to the point that everything that has needed to be said about the film has already been said. There are 6,000 articles about The Shining from writers much more talented than myself that can be accessed on the internet at any given time.

Everyone is aware of the shooting details of the film, how Kubrick emotionally terrorized Shelley Duvall yet coddled the psyche of little Danny Lloyd. We have heard about the set dressing, the outfits, the extra takes and the apologies for faking the Apollo 11 moon landing. We’ve been told these stories over and over since 1980, and, frankly, it’s boring at this point. So, what I would like to do, instead of running through the film and commenting on its merits or faults, is take a look at why the story’s creator despises the film so much and determine whether or not his points are valid.

We all know that Stephen King famously hates Kubrick’s adaptation of the story and that he has gone on record dozens of times since 1980 to let us know exactly why. His latest book, The Outsider, even has a small dig at the film, introducing a character who is watching Paths of Glory because it is “better than The Shining“.

I think we can all agree that The Shining is the most technically proficient, beautiful and frightening adaptation of a Stephen King work of fiction, so why has he held on to these disgruntled feelings for so long? Let’s take a look at three of his biggest issues with the film adaptation of his story and try to see if King’s version, or Kubrick’s, resulted in the better story.

    #1- “Jack was crazy from the first scene.”

In an interview with Rolling Stone from 2014, King went on a short rant about why he disliked the film version of The Shining. In it, he states:

In the book, there’s an actual arc where you see this guy, Jack Torrance, trying to be good, and little by little he moves over to this place where he’s crazy. And as far as I was concerned, when I saw the movie, Jack was crazy from the first scene. I had to keep my mouth shut at the time. It was a screening, and Nicholson was there. But I’m thinking to myself the minute he’s on the screen, ‘Oh, I know this guy. I’ve seen him in five motorcycle movies, where Jack Nicholson played the same part.’

  It has been noted several times that the character of John Daniel Torrance (Jack in the film) is King’s most autobiographical creation. He is a schoolteacher (check), a writer (double-check) who has a drinking problem (triple-check) and is genuinely afraid that his vices will cause him to harm his family (quadruple-check). I can understand the anger King has about the change in motivation for the character. The book follows this man’s decent into madness at the hands of the Overlook Hotel, it’s demons and ghosts worming their way into his mind and forcing him to try to hurt his family. The film, on the other hand, does not explicitly state that the ghosts of the Overlook are having any effect on Jack at all. Instead, it seems like Jack began his mental disintegration long before accepting the caretaker position.

You can see from the short conversation between Jack, Wendy and Danny in their tiny yellow Volkswagon that he is not necessarily fond of his family situation. He resents them for dragging him down and stifling his creative process. Writer’s block rules the world around him, and it is their fault that he has it. He hurt little Danny once, in a drunken rage. Instead of showing any true remorse for having hurt his son, in the film, Jack blames it all on the boy for throwing his papers around the room. He doesn’t blame himself or take any responsibility for it, instead claiming that it was a “Momentary loss of muscular coordination” (which, I admit, will probably be the title of my memoir). To please Wendy and to keep the family together, he vows that he will never take another drink, forcing him onto a wagon that he never wanted to be on and into this state of mental block. This planted a seed of hatred for the two of them deep within his mind that the isolation and continued sobriety of the Overlook fed until it bloomed into the hallucinations and rage we see at the end of the film.

      King wanted his character to be the victim of an evil force so that we could all see ourselves in his shoes. He wanted Torrance to be a good man, trying to be good and do good for his family that is swayed by the spirits that want his son’s psychic energies and powers. In the book, John has a moment of clarity during his rampage through the halls of the lodge, telling Danny that he loves him and to run. This obviously did not translate to the film version. There is no moment of humanity peeking through the curtain of red madness. Jack has transitioned into a grunting maniac, and there is no coming back from it.

So, which has the greater effect? I believe that Kubrick’s version is a much more impactful iteration of the John/Jack character. The moment of clarity John has in the novel suggests more of a “possession” rather than a true break in psyche. This does not make me see myself in his shoes, like King wanted. As time goes on, I see Jack as a more realistic character, a man who loses his mind and tries to kill his family. Possession takes the blame away from John in the novel. It’s not his fault, it’s the hotel that is doing it. Also, there is more finality to Kubrick’s version of the character. A possession can be beaten, it can be avoided, but madness cannot. You cannot stop the train of psychosis once it has left the track when you are 25 miles deep in the snow-blocked mountains. So, when it comes to the difference in central motivations for John/Jack, I have to side with Kubrick. The film’s version of the character is more believable, understandable, and downright terrifying.

  #2- Wendy’s Role

In his novel, Stephen King describes Wendy Torrance as beautiful, blonde and smart-as-a-whip. In Kubrick’s version, Wendy is reduced to a lank-haired mother-only in Shelley Duvall (Side note- I dare someone to besmirch Shelley Duvall’s name in my presence. She is a unique, beautiful woman that has had her world ripped apart by mental illness. He was very good in this movie, and to call her “ugly” or “dumb” is a sure-fire way to make sure you receive these hands.) In the same interview with Rolling Stone from 2014, King tells Andy Greene that Kubrick’s film:

…it’s so misogynistic. I mean, Wendy Torrance is just presented as this sort of screaming dishrag. But that’s just me, that’s the way I am.

  This is the most valid of King’s criticisms of the film. Wendy does nothing to save her family, instead, she stands there and takes Jack’s verbal abuse about interrupting his work and nods as if she is a dog cowering in the corner.  She fails to act when Danny is attacked in Room 237, instead she smokes and paces her bedroom, swearing to get them out of there. Then she, um, goes to bed. This gives Jack enough time to sabotage the SnowCat (their only means of escape), destroy the radio (their only connection to the outside world) and descend further into his psychosis thanks to the spirit of Mr. Grady.

Towards the end of the film, she does stand up for herself and tries her best to stop Jack from hurting them. He hits him in the head with a bat (although with terrible form… come on, Wendy), slashes his hand with a knife and screams an awful lot. This all comes way too late, and a smart woman who truly cared for her family would have gotten out of there at the first signs of paranormal interference or murderous rage. In other words, she is “presented as this sort of screaming dishrag”.

    I agree with King that Kubrick devolved Wendy into a prop for Jack to rage against, but I don’t agree with many people’s assumption that she is a wasted character in the film. She takes Jack’s verbal assaults, deflects his anger, tries to keep Danny from making his father mad, allows him his privacy and continues to hope that he will not hurt them.  In other words, Wendy is in a abusive relationship and cannot break out of the cycle. It is impossible for me to truly get into the headspace of someone who continues to be with a man who abuses them or their children, but this film is a glimpse into that world. She stays by his side through the drinking, the fighting, the screaming and the hitting, and she holds onto this tiny sliver of hope that she will someday see the Jack that she fell in love with come back.

So, while I agree with King about how Wendy is portrayed in the film, I still feel as if it is a good representation of the emotional terrorism that Jack has subjected her to over the years. She doesn’t know how to react because Jack has taken away her free will and she is completely dependent on the man who is now chasing her with an axe. In other words, she is not a “dishrag”, she is an abused woman trying her best to protect her son from the monster she married.

  #3- The Overlook

In the novel, the Overlook Hotel is the evil tearing the family apart. It has haunted hedge animals and possessed fire hoses that attack and try to claim Danny’s powers for it’s own vile vortices to contain. In the film, the hotel is just that: a hotel. Sure, it is probably haunted by overly-bloodied elevators, disintegrating bathing women and fellating bear-men, but it does not have the powers over the physical world described in the book. So which is more effective?

I believe that Kubrick’s version of the hotel is, by far, the most horrific version of the secluded setting. This harkens back to the argument about Jack/John’s motivations, in that the Overlook is seen as a possessive force in the novel. Possessions, I say again, can be beaten. They can be thwarted by good men with good intentions. The hedge animals were terrifying in the book and they gave 10-year-old me nightmares, but they are an example of how the hotel manipulates physical things for its own gain. It is a sentient character in the novel, but only a setting in the film.

  “[The Overlook] is simply a conduit for the chaos created by Jack and his insanity.”

  The true evil of the film comes from Jack Torrance and not a scrapbook in the boiler room. There is a sentience there, I admit, because it tends to attract men with hate in their heart to it’s caretaker’s quarters, but it isn’t the cause of these actions. In the film, the hotel itself has no grand scheme. It doesn’t want Danny’s psychic powers or anything else from the Torrance family. It is is simply a conduit for the chaos created by Jack and his insanity. There are spirits there, sure, but there are spirits in many hotels across the country. What the Overlook does in the film is simply push and prod Jack toward his rampage. It takes a damaged man and allows him to follow his own path to murder.

    As we all know, Wendy and Danny escape in the novel because the hotel explodes. In the film, they escape because Jack freezes to death ion the maze. As a horror fiends, which version is more terrifying for you? In one scenario, the evil is defeated. It forgets about its own faulty boiler and is destroyed. In the film, the hotel still stands. It’s spirits still walk the halls and bathe in Room 237. They will still be there the next time a family wants to spend the winter roaming its halls. This permanence is why I tend to side with Kubrick’s version of the Overlook. In the novel, a haunted hotel is blown up and the threat is over. In the film, however, the hotel stands, its ghost haunt, and the axes are still in the shed for the next caretaker who accepts the position.

King describes the main difference between his work and Kubrick’s film like this: “The book is hot, and the movie is cold; the book ends in fire, and the movie in ice”. This may sound like a straightforward statement, seeing as the book ends with the Overlook being destroyed by a boiler explosion and the film ends with Danny luring Jack into the hedge-maze to freeze to death, but it is much more than that. He is describing the difference between Kubrick and himself. King is the warmth, the humanity in the story, while Kubrick is the cold artist who distances himself and the characters from true emotion and feeling. This is a fair metaphor for the different artistic styles of these two men, but in my mind it is not a condemnation of the film. For me, fire burns out. Smoke settles and flames turn to embers. The sun may come up and winter may turn its pages into spring, but cold will always return. Cold always comes back to continue its feast, therefore making it the more permanent adversary.

  “In the film [..] the hotel stands, its ghost haunt, and the axes are still in the shed for the next caretaker who accepts the position.”

  Let me get this out in the open, I love Stephen King. He has gifted me with the characters and villains that I love most in the fictional world. He is the source of my passion for the horror genre and is, undoubtedly, the finest horror author that has ever lived. That being said, I think it is foolish to dismiss Kubrick’s adaptation of The Shining simply because King hates it with such a fervor. I have seen arguments online coming from people in all walks of life saying that The Shining is not a horror film, that it isn’t a true King adaptation or that 1997’s miniseries is the superior version because it sticks more closely to the novel. That, I’m sorry to say, is nonsense.

The Shining is one of the finest horror films ever made and it belongs on the upper-tier of King adaptations. On the film’s 38th anniversary, let’s let bygones be bygones and allow ourselves to disagree with The King for once. We can love both the novel and the film for what they are, and rejoice in the fact that we have two different, yet related stories about the Overlook Hotel that we get to enjoy.

  Are you as big of a fan of The Shining as we are, or do you think the novel is the better version of the story? Either way, we want to hear from you! Join our Facebook group Horror Fiends of Nightmare on Film Street and join in on the conversation! While you’re at it, bookmark our homepage at Nightmare on Film Street to stay up to date with all the hottest horror news, reviews and retrospectives the internet has to offer.

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[shark-myths]

2017 Writing Reflection

*All answers should be about works published in 2017.

@horsegirlharry tagged me in this! I have been in a brief writing hiatus while I study for my licensing exam (read: I am all the way dead inside) and I miss it so, so much! Looking back over this year made me HYPE to return to the Peterick motherland in 2018.

1. List of works published this year:

Processions

V Day

Be Careful Making Wishes

Small Things

Love’s A Universe

If It Helps You Control Yourself

Fall Out Boy: Live In Tokyo

Like A Chapel In A Hospital

Yes Or No, But No Maybes

Romance Is Dead

Joe Troh Band Ho

Leaves a Mark

The Mad Key

In Every Universe

Saint Anthony

The Difference Between Real Love and the Love On TV

Smash The Mirror, Break The Palm Reader’s Hand

Girl Out Boy

The Opposite of Amnesia

2. Work you are most proud of (and why):

This can’t possibly be a surprise to anyone because it’s all I can talk about, but GIRL OUT BOY. I found so much of myself in that story, far more than I ever expected to. I have never written anything more important or more impactful. Every single person who read it and told me it was important to them too, that they felt something, that it allowed them to understand their young selves differently or more kindly, made me cry. Literally every one of them. It’s the best thing I have ever done.

3. Work you are least proud of (and why):

I don’t know if I’ve ever published anything that I wasn’t proud of? I’m either arrogant or self-assured, idk. There’s stuff that turns cringey or embarrassing with age, of course, but I think everything I’ve put up this year is solid writing and good storytelling. The closest answer I have to this is that it’s really surreal that I posted two AFI fics this year, because it feels like it’s been a literal lifetime since I was in that headspace. I have an awkward-guilty relationship to my works in that fandom now, but I think that they are still good technically, and Small Things was an intensely personal and important piece about my ED experience, so I’m still glad I wrote it and proud of the work I put in.

4. A favorite excerpt of your writing:

My favorite single scene I wrote this year was the horseshoe crab scene in Girl Out Boy. It makes me laugh so hard. I almost copied and pasted the whole thing here before deciding on this:

What’s ‘boyfriend’ but another word for ‘someone who fucks other girls when you’re not looking’? No, Pete doesn’t belong to anybody anymore. Not even herself. Pete leaves grim, surly Andy at the bar, saying nonsensically, “Be our lighthouse. Guide us home” before she drags Pat out onto the cramped, sweaty dance floor.

Jo, of course, is already in the center of it, just as drunk as Pat and spinning like she personally was elected club disco ball. Pete grabs Jo by the hips and dances up on her, laughing when Jo realizes it’s her and starts grinding and booty popping with abandon. They dance til the club seems to spin of its own accord, three girls linked by heat and heartbeat and meant to be. Pete feels like the brightest thing in the room. She tips her head back, shows her throat to the ceiling ‘cause the sky’s all that she’ll submit to, laughs and laughs. If enough people see her having a good time, she must be. Happiness is brittle and splintery. It’s other people’s eyes that make things real.

Pete gets distracted for a little while by a Tall Dark and Random who hooks her by the belt loops and moves his body with a passion that moves her in return. She feels manageable under his big hands—like she can be broken down, bite-size, and swallowed. It is good to feel hands on her, like someone else is holding her together for once. His mouth is on her neck, stubble and teeth, and she thinks about how soft and vulnerable she is in all the places she gives away, how bitter and rough she is in those few hardscrabble places she keeps for herself. She’s just drunk enough to be strung between caring too much about everything and not caring about anything. His hands on her body either feel good or like nothing at all.

5. Share or describe a favorite comment you received:

Okay, like I said, literally every comment I got on Girl Out Boy is basically etched on my heart forever, so this is impossible. One person said “Your writing is always where fic and lyrics collide” though, and that was pretty amazing, because I spend a lot of time steeping in lyrics and then weaving them into fic, and I’m always delighted when people have a positive response to that. Another amazing comment was when someone proposed marriage to my tryst theory and then we planned the wedding together. (It’s next Halloween. You’re all invited.)

6. A time when writing was really, really hard:

I very nearly died while writing Smash The Mirror, Break The Palm Reader’s Hand. I was so absolutely stuck and running up against a deadline, and I felt like every word of it was garbage, and it sucked to have to fight and struggle so hard for each word when it seemed like I was producing crap. Luckily my amazing beta @immoral-crow came along and said kind, soft things, and I started to see value in the work and get excited. I’m really fond of the fic now, and I love how it came out all dreamy—I was trying to channel Sarah McCarry or Francesca Lia Block and I think I did okay at that. I’m a pretty lazy writer—when it’s not working or doesn’t feel good, I’ll usually stop and come back later when things are flowing. Which means that I have noooo self-discipline when I’m up against a wall, and I get very pitiful. I complaind more in the month I was writing that fic than I did in the rest of 2017 combined, probably. Me every 2 seconds: why is it sooooooooo hard, why is my life like this, cut off my hands I shall never write again

7. A scene or character you wrote that surprised you:

They surprise me constantly! I’m a discovery writer—it’s fun for me because I generally have no idea what’s going to happen next and I’m delighted when the characters show me. One surprise was when I was writing The Difference Between Real Love and the Love On TV, and I had to write a sex scene but it kept ending itself in a fade-out and then I’d have to go back and try again. That’s why the big sex scene in that fic plays like the end of Lord of the Rings. I couldn’t write it through without a million cut-aways.

8. How did you grow as a writer this year:

- I wrote about queer women and their interiority in a really intentional way, which challenged me and moved me and helped me know myself better.

- I did Bandom Big Bang, wrote a fic-by-request for a fundraiser, and participated in Bandom Bingo 2017. That’s a lot of writing for specific prompts and on specific timelines that was different for me—usually I just write what I feel when I feel it. I’ve definitely been learning better discipline as a result.

- I’ve always been a really personal writer, but somehow it took me this long to realize that instead of writing out my issues through band member proxies, I could literally make them queer women and figure out my shit directly. An unusually large bit of what you’ve read of my work this year is cribbed directly from my life or my experiences.

- I made more writer friends and deliberately read and commented on more fic and I started working with a beta for the first time in my life!

9. How do you hope to grow next year:

I want to do even more of the above! Especially reading other people’s fic. I read a ton of traditionally published books, but I learned how to write from fanfiction and I want to get back into the habit of reading more of it! Yeah, that’s an open invitation to send in your recs.

I’m also hoping to work with my new pal @conditionsofhappiness to learn how to do that neat writerly thing called ‘revision’ and get more disciplined. And I want to focus more on representation in my work, especially making room for POV characters of color, because that’s something we aren’t great at in fandom and I think we could do better. (That’s why I wrote Saint Anthony, and it’s the best short thing I’ve written in ages! I’m hoping to do more of that in 2018.)

10. Who was your greatest positive influence this year as a writer (could be another writer or beta or cheerleader or muse etc etc):

@immoral-crow, who is there for me for every problem whether it’s in-story or not. She betas my life as well as my work, and she always has something to say that I need to hear. She helps me celebrate women and rage at the heteropatriarchy, we read amazing books together, her kindness may well be bottomless, and sometimes, if I am very very good, she Facetimes me drunk and pink and silly. She’s my first beta after 15 years of writing rogue, and I have no idea how I ever lived without her.

@horsegirlharry, who journeyed out of the black pit of AFI fandom with me this year (we climbed a ladder of rainbows to escape) and has celebrated fandom community and girlhood and softness and vulnerability with me all year. She is the staunchest supporter of my commitment to the FOB fandom, to goodness and love, and to whatever project I’m excited about. I am so proud of both of us for how we’ve let ourselves grow!

And any of you who have read my work and told me how it impacted you. That shit literally keeps me going. This year and every year, I would not exist without you guys. 

 11. Anything from your real life show up in your writing this year:

Always. I am more obsessed with my relationship with myself and my own past than Pete Wentz, istg. The most egregiously stolen-from-my-life things this year are the entire fic Small Things and the Girlsploration of Pat Stump in Girl Out Boy, when she’s reviewing her history and realizing belatedly how incredibly gay it is. Every story about every girl Pat recalls in that bit literally actually happened to me. My life is so specifically embarrassing.

12. Any new wisdom you can share with other writers:

> Write! The most amazing thing about writing is that you can package up something deeply personal and true about you and just—send it out into the ether. That means people who are ideally suited to befriend and care for you are likely to find it, to find you. I make most of my friends by posting fanfiction on the internet and letting nice strangers bound up to me and start conversations. It doesn’t matter what you’re writing or if it’s ‘good enough.’ The way to get connected to your community and find your people, the way to get better and to learn, the way to get involved in something that will inspire and motivate you and possibly change your life, is just to write and put it out there. I didn’t expect a single person to read Girl Out Boy but I wanted to write it anyway, so I did, and it’s the best thing I did with my whole year. So seriously. Write.

> Some people are assholes and that’s okay. You’re writing for yourself and your friends. Anyone who doesn’t fall into those categories is humbly invited to choose any dick in the world and suck it. Seriously—if someone is hurting you, you don’t need to listen to them, and that doesn’t mean you’ll be a bad writer. Relatedly: if you aren’t enjoying your work, put it down. Write something else. This should feel good.

> Write 20 Minutes. This is how I bully myself when I’m procrastinating or having trouble getting into a flow. Make a commitment to spend 20 minutes really writing—no tumblr, no cell phone, no distractions. Turn off the wifi. Put your phone under a pillow in the other room. And just write, or try to, really honestly for 20 minutes. When the timer goes off, if it still feels sucky, stop! Writing isn’t working today so don’t worry about it! You made a serious attempt, and now you don’t have to feel guilty. Seriously, guilt will kill you. It will never help you produce more words. Try being kind to yourself instead. You’re doing great, even if you only got seven and a half words down in that whole 20 minutes.

> Take a notebook out in public and write! This is one of my favorite treats to myself, even though it’s hard to make myself actually leave my cozy house when the moment comes. In public, you will be so bored and avoidant of stranger small talk that you’ll be forced to focus on your work. It’s also really nice to get a change of scenery, and signal to your brain that it’s time to be intentional and engaged! Try coffee shops and libraries and parks and whatever the most beautiful places are in your town.

13. Any projects you’re looking forward to starting (or finishing) in the new year:

If you saw the length of the “Peterick Ideas” doc in my phone you would be horrified. Um, I want to write everything all the time! I’m already thinking about the next installment of Girl Out Boy (it has a playlist), I’m planning a StormPilot fic, and I’m open to suggestions.

14. Tag three writers/artists whose answers you’d like to read.

@leyley09, @immoral-crow, and @beckettsthoughts!

[bigskydreaming]

two writing questions. 1. do you have apl recommendation for phone writing? i get lightbulb moments right before i fall asleep my notes are for psych stuff not fics.

2. how do you choose between a cathartic conversation and a happy conversation? for example, i can choose to not make tim leave after bftc and stay as dick's partner no issue between them or i can choose to have my angst and confrontation and have them actually talk it out, let dick be angry and show it. and i feel bad if i choose the happy path for one character and angst for another, is there a justification? should i be justifying? aside from my own personal bias..

1) I do not have specific recs, no. I literally just use the Notes function on my phone and its less about having a separate app for writing about different things and more about just having a personal organization scheme to what folders I put everything in and how I title stuff so I know where to find notes on various things later. But I know well the curse of lightbulb moments after you’ve already lain down or taken out your contacts or whatetever....and for me getting around that has always been less about turning to specific tools and more about building certain routines to maximize the likelihood of me reaching for something like my phone to jot a quick, workable note for later rather than just deciding eh, is too much effort, I’ll just lay here and let it flop instead.

2) I’m going to take a roundabout approach to answering this, and tackle a couple different things here. And some of its probably like ‘uh didnt ask but thanks’ but eh, whatever. Consider it bonus extras or like, me warming up to the actual point for the part you did ask about, because its like......its in the vicinity, and its on my brain, and here’s an opportunity to say it, so I shall, and you can take what you want and leave the rest, its all good either way.

Which segues into the first part of my point: Because first off, any time the subject matter of writers questioning their writing choices on any level comes up, my go to is always gonna be to default back to “if you’re not sure about something, then why not Both! Both is good!” In all seriousness, like, when it comes to matters like this in fic there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever that you like, HAVE to pick....OR that just because you DID pick one thing over another, that this choice has to like.....necessarily mean more than you want it to. 

Writing isn’t a zero sum game, except in terms of like, spoons and time, etc, but these things tend to be situational and change at different times. If you can only afford to exert yourself on one form of the conversation and never ever go back to it or do a parallel in another fic, etc, then like, yeah you might have to figure out some way to choose for yourself which is the more ideal for your purposes and stick by it....but in most cases, the trick of it is.....you don’t HAVE to choose. Like I mean, you do, in that you need to pick one in order to write ANYTHING, but that choice doesn’t have to be definitive. It doesn’t have to lock you into anything. 

Choosing the catharctic conversation route for one character instead of the happy fun time choice doesn’t mean there’s anything standing in the way of you ever doing another fic that’s essentially the exact same set up except here you choose the happy convo route instead. Picking one route because you only have the spoons to write one version of that particular fic doesn’t mean that you can’t EVER return to it at some later date, or that you won’t ever find yourself again in the same headspace or emotional space that led you to want to write a fic about that particular time in the first place....and that you won’t feel more inclined to take the other route upon that future occasion.

Like, give yourself permission to break out of the expectation that any time you have a choice to make in writing, between two possible directions, that the choice you make has to be the RIGHT one, or that there even IS a right one. Just make the choice that’s MOST right for you right THEN, and try and internalize that this isn’t inherently picking this one direction OVER the other, its just simply picking it as a direction for right now. You’re not picking a winner with the other inherently the losing proposition....you’re simply picking a direction to go in for the moment, while you have the energy to go somewhere, so that at least you’re not standing still.

When on a writing journey, like, unless there’s a specific destination you’re trying to reach, my stance is don’t make it about destinations at all so much as just movement in general. Its so easy to get hung up on the idea that there’s a right way and a wrong way to approach various stories, and that can paralyze you and keep you from making any movements in any which way whatsoever, and the number one cause of not writing is....not writing. The biggest threat to a story’s completion is simply not adding to it. The choice that’s most often the story-ender isn’t making the wrong choice about which direction to go in a story, but rather the inability to make a choice at all.

So just pick one, I say, or having picked one, just be like....so that’s a thing I did, well done, me. Don’t worry as much about if its the right choice or the wrong one, if there was a better way to approach the story or if you optimized your options.....because the less you view individual stories or chapters as singular entitites unto themselves and the more you view them as just additions to your writing library as a whole, still hours logged writing, still forward momentum in refining your craft, still proof of production, practice thinking through things, still analyses of character motivation and experiments in word choice.....the easier it gets to just get out of your own way and just WRITE. Things have a way of becoming so much clearer in hindsight, so when you’re out the other side of a story’s creation, even if it turns out to not have accomplished everything or the specific things you wanted from it, even if you wince and are like yeeesh, wish I hadn’t done that, like.....all of that is still development and absolutely none of that is something you can’t still apply to future writing endeavors moving forward. 

For me, personally, its just about reminding myself that even if I don’t get it right this time, there can always be a next time.

NOW. As far as making certain choices in regards to one character and different choices in regards to the other, like....the only real question is what you’re after, personally, in regards to your stories and story choices, and is there a reason that’s served more by having the one character make the one kind of choice and the other character making the other? I don’t think its about justifying anything, either to yourself or readers, its more about just....interrogating yourself on your own personal choices or prioritizations, so you yourself at least know why you treat them differently or engage with them in different ways? And not because its about explaining yourself or showing your work but rather just because like....self-awareness is good, and we’re never hurting for having availed ourselves of the opportunity to examine our choices and what’s behind our making them. 

Because the flip side of this is fiction is a kind of dialogue in and of itself, its a form of conversation between the writer and the reader, and you can only ever control your side of the conversation. No matter what. The reader’s side of the conversation is always going to be how they receive what was said, perceive the story you wrote, and you can try and steer that reaction as much as possible with your story choices, but ultimately, there is no story choice that can GUARANTEE a specific reception from every reader.....SO the ultimate aim here, I think, should be to focus most on YOUR side of the conversation and what it is you’re trying to say with a story, or what you want to say, or why you wrote it in the first place, and just.....have a self-assessment of your choices, FOR YOURSELF. Because that way, no matter how readers engage in their side of the conversation, no matter how they perceive what you wrote and what you were trying to say....any dialogue you have about what you write, any interaction you have with readers beyond the writing of the fic itself....its only ever going to be as productive as your own understanding of your own work and choices allows for. 

And this isn’t about not listening to criticism or blocking yourself off from the opinions of the people who you’re essentially talking to with your work, which is basically just their side of the conversation and them saying “well this is what I heard, when you said what you said” but rather the complete opposite, opening yourself up to hearing criticism as a conversation rather than a condemnation. Because when its less about “omg are they saying I’m the worst person alive, y/n” and more about “this is what I feel you said here by making this particular choice, and this may or may not be what you were actually MEANING to say by making this particular choice, but its what came across”.....then suddenly you’re in a position to actually MAKE something from that conversation, apply it to future works. 

Because the more understanding you have of what you were trying to say with your work and the why you made certain choices with it, the better equipped you are to match that up to and against what readers said they heard via your work and the choices you made with it.....and then you’re in the driver’s seat in terms of “okay, was the disconnect on my end with what I said or on their end with what they heard, is it something I can do something about by changing my approach or choosing different things in the future and is it something I even WANT to change or am I still comfortable with what I said and why”.

So basically, I think its less about asking yourself is there a right choice or a wrong choice to choosing this for Dick and this for Tim and vice versa.....and more about just asking yourself, just FOR yourself, WHY are you inclined to choose differently for one character than the other, WHY those particular choices, is there a reason for that, and if so, upon examination.....are you comfortable with those choices and your reasons for making them? If so, great, there’s no problem. If not, also great, because now, with more awareness of your own choices and reasons for making them, there’s absolutely nothing stopping you from making different choices in the future, that are now more informed choices just by virtue of you having explored yourself in terms of how and why you make particular choices.

I’m a big proponent of the whole knowledge is power thing, and the thing about justifications, either to ourselves or others, is that they rarely have anything to do with actual knowledge and more to do with just whether or not something is perceived as right. So my take is like, do you want to be right with your story choices or do you want to be knowledgeable about your story choices, and of THOSE two options, which gives you the more power over what you create, y’know? Because that’s the difference between trying to sell yourself on what you pick with any given story choice and trying to INFORM yourself ABOUT your choices, and the trick of it is, the more control you feel you have over your own stories and choices and the more confident you feel about the choices you make and your reasons for making them......the less you’ll feel any need to justify yourself one way or another.

[angeltriestoblog]

The One With All The Books: My favorites + tips on how to get out of your reading slump!

Ever since I was a kid, I've been obsessed with books: while most children I knew then were preoccupied with Barbie dolls and battleships, I immersed myself in fictional worlds and found trusty companions in protagonists who embarked on adventures that transcended the limits of the physical universe. Back then, I would sleep with them under my pillow, read them in the backseat of our family car even on rather turbulent road trips, and turn to them during boring class discussions.

Over time, they ended up shaping my opinions and world views, fueling my hunger for knowledge, and inspiring me to put my own thoughts down on paper. It's safe to say I wouldn't be the person I am now, had it not been for my love for the written word. Which is why I find it odd that I haven't made any of the standard recommendation posts that would normally be found on the personal blog of someone like me. In an attempt to fix that, I'm sharing with you my eight favorites of all time, not only to give them a fitting tribute (that will still not be able to do their profound impact any justice), but also encourage you to pick up a good read! Who knows, maybe it'll change your life as much as it did to mine!

A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle

As a kid, I loved both science and fiction, but always saw them as two concepts completely opposite from each other. When I found out that they could marry and live in perfect harmony in a genre of their own, I was over the moon. It was exciting enough, getting to teleport across universes by folding the fabric of space and time, encounter terrifying creatures who somehow parallel actual people on Earth, and learn about obscure scientific concepts. But, the fact that it manages to tie in the triumph of good over evil, and the power of familial love was just the cherry on top for me. I brought this with me everywhere I went for a solid two months, obviously with good reason.

The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupery

My mom had recommended this to me in high school, and I put off buying it for so long because I originally thought I was "too old to be reading stuff like that". Much to my surprise, what was practically disguised as a children's book, with its simple prose and watercolor illustrations, served as both as a moral allegory and criticism of the way adults operate in today's world. Though its length can trick you into thinking it's a fast read, most passages demand to be looked at a second time, reflected on, and shared to the nearest person—if you're the type to protest against annotating, you might have to rethink your stance.

Inkheart by Cornelia Funke

When I was in grade school, my parents had this rule where I was only allowed to buy a new book during special occasions, to control the growing number we had piling up in our house. I remember seeing this in the NBS branch in Glorietta, and having to wait until the end of the quarter to ask my parents to get it for me. Oh, well: as the cheesy saying goes, "True love waits." Although if there is anyone who loves books more than I do, it's Meggie Folchart, as she has inherited her father's gift of bringing fictional characters to life. But, when disaster strikes, as it always does, she must learn how to harness this special power and save her family. The world-building and imagery is unbelievably rich, Funke doesn't just paint a picture in your head: she creates a whole ass movie. No wonder eight year-old me put her up on a pedestal.

To All the Boys I’ve Loved Before (the entire series, but maybe the third was my favorite) (ok it was, don't tell the two others) by Jenny Han

The blurb at the back of the book certainly doesn't do it justice: I remember finding this at a nearby Fully Booked and putting it down instantly, dismissing it as another cliche YA novel. Sure, Lara Jean Covey has to deal with all five of her unsent love letters to her crushes being mysteriously sent out, but she also grapples with important issues such as identity, family, and—in the third book—the future. I read Always and Forever, Lara Jean during the summer before I entered university, and every single line resonated with me so much I paused at the end of every chapter to take a crying selfie. Plus, Peter Kavinsky is my literary dream boy: if I ever expect my future significant other to take me on a cross-country road trip to go antique shopping, they'll only have him to blame.

Why We Broke Up by Daniel Handler

We're taught that we shouldn't judge books by their covers, but I'm glad my twelve year old self decided to brush that aside when she bought this. Although I didn't end up reading it until five years after, I devoured the thick hardbound in a day and a half, and was reduced to a ball on my couch shortly afterwards. I know the book has the most self-explanatory title, but it's just that it takes on the universal experience of first love and heartbreak so authentically. The stream of consciousness writing style and slow pacing may be an issue for some, but I reckon it adds to its charm, as it allows Min to take readers through all the motions of a relationship in a way so relatable, entering her headspace feels like slipping into a second skin.

The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Teens by Sean Covey

A friend of mine in high school had complained to me that her mother had made this required reading for her, and I suggested I'd take it off her hands for a bit. I ended up going through her copy thrice in a month. (Ah, what I would give to go back to the days when I could still afford to read on school days.) An issue a lot of books that claim to "change your life" have is that they elaborate on these supposedly groundbreaking ideas, yet fail to break them down into doable action steps. Fortunately, Covey shares his practical advice in a structured manner, complete with examples, illustrations, and the occasional dad joke, freeing it from any preachy or condescending undertones. I don't know how to say that this is the only self-help book you'll ever need without sounding like someone from the Home Shopping Network.

When Breath Becomes Air by Paul Kalanithi

This paperback intimidated me from the moment I first saw it on a shelf, because of the metaphorical title and steep price. But, good thing I got around to buying it eventually: this harrowing story is told by a promising doctor with his whole life ahead of him, who turns into a patient as soon as he is diagnosed with stage IV lung cancer. Reading this was difficult, because I knew that no matter how hard I tried to dissect and reflect on the questions of life and death being posed by the author, I could never come close to understanding how he felt. But, that didn't make the experience any less necessary.

Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert

Creativity is a rather difficult concept to talk about in depth, because it seems so abstract. This is why the author advises readers to treat it as a living entity: one that bestows the best of ideas to those who nurture it, complements the hustle and bustle of our daily lives, and demands our full participation despite the looming presence of fear. I finished this on a school bus ride home from school, and the minute I got home, I marathoned Gilbert's TED talks and keynote speeches on YouTube: there is a distinctly tender, somewhat spiritual quality in the way she speaks about her craft, that easily makes you hang on to and follow every word she says.

Now I know books aren't everyone's go-to when looking for a way to pass the time: I've heard people say that they can't find time for it, that there's nothing out there that piques their interest, or they simply don't have the patience, given that social media posts and Netflix shows practically hold our attention spans captive in this day and age. While all are valid points, they can clearly be worked around! I was in a funk during the start of my Christmas break, because I hadn't touched a non-academic book since the new school year had started. But, I managed to finish four in the span of a month, and am currently on my fifth, as of this writing. Here are some tips I have, just in case you want to kick your reading slump in the ass as well.

Start small. Like with any habit you want to build, introduce the behavior in small increments: five push-ups, five minutes of meditation, fifty pages of a novella. Then, once you're starting to get the hang of it again and you don't feel your two brain cells shrieking for help because they can't figure out if "lived" is an actual word in the English language, you can increase it depending on your progress. This happened to me when, thanks to a notably bad case of tsundoku, I had amassed 14 (!!!) unread books in a year. I decided to tackle as soon as my vacation started, so I kicked it off with a rather easy read: Matilda by Roald Dahl, 232 pages thin, with numerous drawings.

Read something you'd actually enjoy! It's gonna be hard to stay engaged in something that doesn't excite or entice you: reading is supposed to be a hobby, not a household chore. Find something written on an interest of yours, a field of study that you've always been curious about, a person that you've looked up to for forever: I truly believe that there is no topic that hasn't been written about at this point in time.

On a somewhat related note, don't be afraid to DNF books that don't satisfy you. A lot of us pick books up because everyone else loves it, and are afraid to put it down for the fear of being othered. But, if we've all come to believe that we should sever ties with people who no longer serve us, what makes it any different for books that just don't touch our lives? I remember reading The Bell Jar when I was 13 because it came highly recommended by someone on Instagram who I found really cool. It was far too heavy for me, but I couldn't find the heart to shelf it especially after how much it cost me.

Remember that physical copies are not the only way to go. Thanks to the presence of audio and e-books, one can now enjoy stories anywhere and any time, without the daunting feel of several pages, or the burden of lugging around heavy hardbounds. (Although you are missing out on one of the best parts of reading: new book smell. Your loss.) One might find it easier to process the information this way, or even appreciate whatever the author has to say.

Talk about it with a friend! They could help keep you accountable in following through your reading goals, give you solid (and sometimes even personalized) recommendations, or accompany you in mourning over the death of a major character. It's always been a dream of mine to start or join a book club for these exact reasons, but I'm afraid this post is possibly the closest I could get to that right now. Nevertheless, I'd love to hear your suggestions and give you more of my own! Drop me a message here (or here, here, and here!) if ever you're interested.

Love and light,

Angel