#jonerys stuff

[jon-sedai]

We don’t appreciate enough how GRRM made House Targaryen the poster children for his de/reconstruction of the fantasy chosen family trope, and we don’t appreciate how Jon and Dany are the main lens through which he does that. House Targaryen is fantasy on steroids—magic swords, magic look, magic lineage, perhaps the most magic pet one could have in the genre, and a magic destiny that’s specific to them and only them. There’s a foretold magical conflict and its main hero (as many would think), “the prince that was promised”, specifically has to be a Targaryen. This House’s history is so rich, but from a genre perspective, it is Aerys II’s reign and Robert’s Rebellion that’s the most interesting to analyze. Aerys isn’t special himself, but he is to sire the future savior of the world. Then Rhaegar is born and tragic as they are, all the signs point to him being the promised messiah. And Rhaegar becomes THE fantasy hero on steroids. He’s the perfect heir to House Targaryen’s legacy because not only is he to be the best of them, and many think he would have been had he lived, but he is the most perfect manifestation of House Targaryen as the personification of fantasy. There’s absolutely a point to him living and dying as the heir, the inheritor, the eternal symbol of what could have been of the Targaryen’s old glory.

Part of Rhaegar’s legacy extends to his son Aegon. Aegon had everything Rhaegar didn’t. A comet was seen at his conception—and this is an most important herald for the chosen one. So he is given a song, “the song of ice and fire”, and a king’s name to match his status as the new messiah. He didn’t live long but he inherited Rhaegar’s look in his youth too; the fantasy protagonist look. But Aegon died before he could be the hero.

You see Jon and Dany as chosen ones only works so well because of their House’s history, especially as (anti)parallels to Rhaegar and Aegon. They are the unexpected inheritors and challengers to their house’s legacy but in different ways.

Dany is the most immediate and obvious heir. There’s a beauty to her being the last of them and thus, the one bearing the entire house’s legacy. Dany is THE Targaryen. And in being that, she becomes THE hero. She’s got the hero’s look, the hero’s magic and destiny, and better yet, she got the hero’s sword and pet all in one. And, she’s legitimate! She is House Targaryen. But there’s a problem….shes a girl. And we all know House Targaryen’s history with girls.

Maester Aemon’s “no one ever looked for a girl” is quickly becoming my favorite Dany-related quote because it pretty much encapsulates her entire arc, especially as an inheritor to her house’s legacy. The hero they died knowing and expecting was the boy: first Rhaegar, then Aegon. But father and son are dead. Yet Daenerys lives. She inherits everything else they did and more! The Targaryens tried and failed to bring dragons back, but it was Dany who ultimately did it.

Now, Jon is Dany but flipped. From a meta point of view, he’s more fantasy protagonist than she is. He’s a boy, he’s got a big magic sword that he can swing about, and he’s perhaps fantasy’s most prolific trope in action—the magical hidden prince. But within this story, GRRM flips these two characters. Jon’s fantasy protag-ness doesn’t go away, it just morphs into something else. Unlike Dany, he may be a boy and he may have a sword, but he lacks literally everything else. He doesn’t have the look, his magic powers are from his other family, so is his magic pet, and his magic destiny has thus far developed outside his immediate association with House Targaryen. Dany is “what if Rhaegar was a girl?”, but we can’t even begin to ask these types of questions with Jon because there’s so much that precludes him from the fantasy hero role in story. He’s Rhaegar’s heir…but he doesn’t look like him…and he’s not even legitimate. So what do we do now?

GRRM destroyed his fantasy protag house and decided to build up again from the ground up, but did so by challenging the two most critical points—primogeniture and exceptionalism. With Dany, he makes a girl the Targaryen’s outward successor. This works really well because the Targaryens have a history of denying their female heirs. But now what’s left of them is a girl, and she is literally everything they could have hoped for. And she is a a reflection of her house, but her arc has at many times seen her be the antithesis of her ancestors. And I can’t help but think of the oncoming meta-textual showdown between her and Young Griff. On the surface Young Griff, a boy, is the preferred heir. But Dany is, in truth, the one.

Jon is interesting because, in my view, he challenges the Targaryen idea of exceptionalism. He’s easily the fantasy protagonist from the outside looking in. But he doesn’t have the Targaryen name, nor does he have the look. He has the blood, but what makes him special is that it is mixed with the other major fantasy protagonist house’s blood—he’s special in that he’s a hybrid. And this is interesting because if Aegon conquered the seven kingdoms because of a prophecy regarding him or one of his princely descendants, it’s quite the twist to have this messiah not even be a Targaryen prince (not in name anyway). That’s why all the hand wringing around “is Jon legitimate?” or “no one cares because he doesn’t look like Rhaegar” really isn’t the point. The point is for Jon to be the manifestation of the hero—the king—outside of that narrow framework. And if he succeeds, then GRRM would absolutely still be subverting prophecy and genre conventions.

There’s something to Jon and Dany being born as or after House Targaryen falls. House Targaryen has no crown, no throne, and their prophetic mandate has been usurped. But GRRM is so attached to them, and he certainly wants to rebuild them and hold fantasy to account. But to do so, everything we know about the Targaryens, everything the Targaryens knew about themselves, has to be challenged and put to the test by the personifications of all that a Targaryen hero couldn’t be: a girl, and a bastard.

[amidstsaltandsmoke]

I could tell you everything about her. Who she was, how we met... The color of her eyes, and the shape of her nose. I can see her, right in front of me.

[buildoblivion]

i think Jon should get to be a bit romantic (as a treat)

[aeriondripflame]

i hate there is so much jonerys content yet no jonerys content. i am a jonerys liker in a twin flames book jondany way and seemingly exactly zero of jonerys people are like this. how do i say that jon would never do that… oh my god dany would never do that

[miss-celestia13]

Another day, another slightly bitchy note to myself. If anyone else told me that, I’d ignore them and do the opposite, but since it’s me, fuck it. It is raggedy, you’re absolutely right 🤭

[miss-celestia13]

It’s exactly like this 🤭

getting comments on ao3 makes me go so power hungry like. oh yeah you read the thing?? you read the WHOLE thing and even took time out of your day to give your WRITTEN INPUT on it???? make out with me.

[snowxstormworld]

Jonerys Summer lovin' 2025

Between the sea and the mountains 🔥🌊🏔️

We’re thrilled to bring you a week of steamy, windswept, and sun-drenched Jonerys content for Jonerys Summer Lovin '25— where passion runs as deep as the sea and burns as hot as the mountain sun.

From July 7th to July 11th, we’ll reblog your edits, gif sets, fanart, moodboards, and fanfiction and list them in our AO3 collection. We want it all!

The prompts are below, but we love creativity, so feel free to spice it up with your own interpretations!     

Day 1 (7/7) 🌊 Waves Weren’t the Only Thing Rocking the Boat: unexpected reunions / vacation flings / stormy seas / kisses in saltwater / boat rides / late nights on the pier/ “can you put sunscreen on my back?”

Day 2 (7/8) 🏔️ High Altitude, Higher Tension: cabin getaways / heated arguments → hotter makeups / hiking to hidden places / tension as thick as the heat / "I can't tell if it's the altitude or you"

Day 3 (7/9) 🏕️ Where the Pines Touch the Sky: camping under the stars / tent-sharing / too hot for clothes, not too hot for this / skinny dipping in lakes / rustic inns with creaky beds / “what if someone sees?”

Day 4 (7/10) 🌅 Sunsets & Surrender: golden hour trysts / sunset cruises / dancing barefoot on the dock / touches under beach towels / night time whispers, summer secrets / “I saw a shooting star—make a wish”

Day 5 (7/11) 🧭 Lost & Found Between the Lines: free choice / maps & mystery / soul-searching & soulmates / finding each other at the edge of the world / "we didn't mean to get lost... but we made the most of it"

To join us, post your content to your own Tumblr blog and/or to AO3, mention @snowxstormworld, tag #JonerysSummerLovin2025 and #SnowxStormWorld and we’ll reblog your work!

Rules:

The main pairing must be Jonerys (Jon Snow/Daenerys Targaryen). Also, please no explicit scenes of Jon or Dany with other characters.

Prompt mixing is fine - just let us know which prompt you’re featuring on the day you’re posting.

If life kicks you in the shins, go ahead and post on whatever day you can. As long as you mention and tag us, we’ll find and reblog your stuff!

ALL IN THE FANDOM ARE WELCOME. Our main goal is nurturing fandom content. As long as your work follows the above rules and you keep things positive, you are welcome!

Feel free to reach out with questions, we love hearing from you! Or DM us (@jupiterix @libradoodle1 @jellybeanficwriter)

[amaltheas-garden]

This snip from S7 script

"Jon has truly never seen a girl like this before. Her beauty, her strength, her grief and the pain in makes him feel... they all push him to the realization that he loves her

What do you think D&D were thinking when they were writing this? Did George give them the notes about jonerys falling in love or he told them Jon and Dany will have an affair and D&D took that to mean it's love? In the books, most are convinced there will be a marriage for love between them but we never got that in the show. Why would D&D not have them marry if it's such an important mileage in their relationship? All we got was the "parallel' with R and L but that's actually not a parallel because we were shown RL getting married.

I'll preface this by saying I haven't watched any season in full past 3, so most of what I know of the later seasons comes from yt clips and posts on here.

This is going to be in three sections:

Why did J/D not marry in the show?

Why J/D won't marry in the books

Why J/S could happen in the books despite not happening in the show

1: On the first point, idk what d&d were going for, and I absolutely have no clue what grrm told them regarding Jon and Dany's relationship.

The main point of contention seems to be in reconciling the J/D romance and Dany's death, with a large portion of the book fanbase expecting a J/D romance and marriage. I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I just don't think Jon and Dany will be the main love story of the next books. Regardless, the short answer to 'why did d&d not have J/D romance end in marriage if it's an important milestone in the books' is that they won't get married in the books either.

2: As far as using the show as an indicator for the books, I'd say focus on where characters end up, not how they get there. For instance, Sansa and Theon got completely butchered because d&d saw an easy way of cutting corners. They knew they needed a Theon pov to know what was going on w/ Ramsay and Winterfell, and knew Sansa had to go from pawn to player and meet Jon at the Wall for the eventual retaking of Winterfell. So, they thought instead of doing separate Theon-Sansa storylines with a few girl-in-grey red herrings and spending money on a tourney scene and boring Vale politics, lets just skip over the Vale stuff, have Sansa be Jeyne and kill two birds with one stone! With Arya, they sent her off to Braavos to become a badass, cut out the thematically important Stoneheart stuff, and then just shuffle her back to Winterfell. And Bran, the worst offender of the bunch, is practically cut from the show before being brought back to be king. That's all the evidence you need to know D&D only cared about taking the shortest, simplest route possible to (grrm's) predetermined endpoints. (I might have one-sided beef with brando sando, but d&d reallyyy could have benefited from hearing Journey BEFORE Destination!)

I'd also point out that book-show personalities are different: Sansa is still a young girl desperately trying to still cling to hope and belief in goodness and kindness like the heroes in her stories, Arya is a traumatized child who just wants to go back home while also trying to balance her desire to protect innocents and take revenge against those who wronged her family, Bran had all his dreams taken by one man's actions and now has to find his place in the world, and Jon was intended to be the subversion of the classic fantasy-hero archetype. But in the show, Sansa is an ice queen, Arya is badass sword girl, Bran is there, and Jon is a dumb stereotypical hero. Show Jon just doesn't behave in a way book!Jon would, so I'd expect a lot more complexity in book!J/D's relationship than straightforward romance. Point being, D&D are fine having characters end up where grrm told them to put them, they just don't care for the getting there part (also known as a story). If J/D was supposed to be a romance ending in marriage, they would have done that. Jon lives, Dany dies, Sansa rules the North, Bran becomes king, Arya continues her adventures are the points we should take away from the final seasons. The journey of how we get there is something we'll only find out when grrm publishes the books 🤡.

3: And because this is a filthy Jonsa blog, and I must connect everything back to it:

Some (most) of this is going to contradict what I just said, but bear with me. Dany's death was clearly meant to be the big shock twist of the show. The main criticism of her arc was that it came out of nowhere and was underdeveloped. D&D had to accomplish three things: J/D meet, Dany dies, and the audience doesn't see it coming. Easiest way to do that is have J/D romance, tease a possible marriage to unite the North with Dany, then have a half assed rug pull where she goes coo coo for cocoa puffs and her former lover stabs her. Regardless of the sincerity of the feelings, a romance subplot was the easiest way to insert melodrama, Stark infighting, and make the audience believe there could be a happy ending between the two. Was it done well? no. But could I see what they were trying to do? yeah.

So how would book Jonsa come into play and why would D&D ignore that element? Simply put, if Jonsa happens, it would have started developing in S6, and if Jon knows he feels for Sansa in *that* way, it makes the idea of Jon going team Dany less likely, and in turn makes the audience more suspicious of Jon's true motives. This will be even worse in the books, seeing as Jon will have (hopefully) developed a closer relationship w/ Sansa, got his beloved baby sister back, and the last of his half-brothers. The close sibling bonds keeping him allied with House Stark means Dany's main in with Jon so to speak would be through a romantic relationship, and if that place is already occupied by yet another Stark, it becomes pretty obvious that Jon will never fully be on her side. This is a problem, because we pretty much know the Starks are supposed to come out on top, so being in conflict with them isn't a good sign for Dany's endgame. Making Jon and Sansa's relationship platonic/familial instead of romantic makes a happy J/D endgame feel more likely to the audience/ makes her villain turn & death less obvious.

Grrm is a self-proclaimed romantic at heart, and I find it very hard to believe we won't get a sincere romance involving his favorite Byronic hero. This is pure speculation on my part, but I tend to think Jon will entertain a marriage with Dany as a way of securing the Starks' safety/ making peace between Dany and the North in a very obvious act of Duty over Love. Having those good ol' forbidden feelings develop between Jon and Sansa in Winds, being separated by Jon's decision to enter a politically advantageous relationship w/ Dany only to discover they're cousins and could have been together adds a nice dimension to the Starks v. Dany conflict. And Dany dying in the end means Jon has the choice to choose a love marriage over duty. But if we assume (and I'm aware it's a BIG assumption), that Jonsa is a book possibility, then the romantic aspect was played down in the show to make Jon's betrayal of Dany less obvious and preserve the shock value of her death. And at that point, they couldn't really end the show with a Jonsa marriage because there was no basis for it (not that that stopped them from doing King Bran I guess but whatever... a girl can dream). If I were to make a snide comment on the ending, GoT did like doing surface level girlboss moments, so Sansa ending up as a solo queen instead of a sappy Aragorn-Arwen love story was consistent with their other character decisions. (I honestly do love Sansa's coronation scene and there are some good metas on Sansa-Elizabeth I, so I don't want to dismiss that possibility entirely, I just think D&D's track record of throwing Arya/Sansa/Dany into the same stoic/badass stock character blender might've influenced their choice to downplay Sansa's possible romantic storyline despite it being a central theme in the books).

Just to summarize, Jon and Dany didn't get married in the show because they won't get married in the books, the book relationship will be much more complicated than the show version, and D&D's character writing in terms of their internal journey doesn't matter that much since they overtly changed character personalities from the books, and only care about characters getting where they need to go regardless of how it comes about. Assuming book Jonsa happens, this subplot was abandoned to prioritize shock value and keep audiences guessing who would win till the literal last episode. And because of the scrapping of a romantic relationship between the two, their respective endings were modified.

[amidstsaltandsmoke]

Misguided Ghosts | A lovers-to-exes-to-lovers again Jonery fic

_______________________

“Dany? Are you with us?”

Her long distant, pale eyes snapped upward along the conference table, a flush of heat coating her cheeks that undoubtedly reflected by the way of a bright rouge which darkened when she noticed the multiple sets of eyes on her. With a put-on smile, she cleared her throat and nodded at the figure at the head of the table – the most important member in the room who had just caught her daydreaming – and folded her hands on top of the table, moreso so they would stop fidgeting in her lap. “Of course; I’m sorry. I was just sifting through the strategies you proposed,” she lied through her teeth, resuming the conversation from where she vaguely remembered it leaving off regarding social media marketing.

She had been thinking of anything but numbers, solutions, or any business matters, despite that being the only reason she was in New York in the first place. No, her thoughts had solely been on the folded letter in her jacket pocket that she had held on to (clung to, if she was so willing to be honestly raw with herself, but she shoved those thoughts away immediately), the very one that had seen better days with all of its creases from opening and reopening and thinking and rethinking, on the man that had sent it to her three years ago, on the address she knew to be a mere five blocks – walking distance – away from her hotel.

[arabian-bloodstream]

Explain to me again why I'm writing a massive fix-it sequel to GOT that incorporates book stuff, works to redeem as many characters from the shitshow of s8 as possible, write beautiful love stories for Gendrya, Jonerys, Sanrion, bring Daemrya into it, loving on them too, along with detailed character work, making sense of stuff, weaving this tale together, etc.....

And I have like 2 to 6 commenters sometimes. And 2 of them are my friends.

ETA: I honestly didn't think anyone would care, so I didn't put up a link, but people in comments asked. I gave them the link, and am putting it here too: https://archiveofourown.org/works/46365739

[atopvisenyashill]

why do you think jonsa is happening tho? jonerys is different bc they are going to be enemies, but i don’t see what jonsa does for the story

so let me first lay out roughly what i think is going to happen should jonsa become canon. I personally love going down meta and graphic spirals, so I'm including links to other people’s theories/explanations/graphics of events too - also I would like to shout out @istumpysk because half these metas and gifsets were stuff I found on their blog initially, and also was the one who really convinced me that jonsa is less of a crackship and more of a contender for an actual canon theory, and from there i really found my niche in this fandom. specifically this meta about jon being the mummer's dragon is what pulled me out of my "we're never getting twow and if we do it's just gonna be that stupid dany has jon's magical baby while tyrion watches, then they all die theory" slump and lit my brain on fire again. let's goooo:

The Ashford Tourney Theory - Something Shady goes down at the tourney Petyr has planned that requires Sansa to make a quick getaway, and likely causes her to run into Brienne while fleeing. This theory for me is about hinting at Sansa's romantic future, allies, and how she's getting the hell out of the Vale: both the dark haired, Not Targ Looking Targ Prince that is the son of A Great Prince That Never Was being her romantic endgame but also it's about Brienne (/Dunk) getting her the hell out of there and becoming Sansa's number one ally and protector (with Sansa's number two being Bronze Yohn!! But he's not fleeing with her - if he helps her get out of the Vale, it'll be to cause a distraction or a fight so Sansa can slip away unnoticed. Bronze Yohn is coming with the knights of the Vale later to help defend his girl!).

The Girl In Grey - Out of options on where to go, Sansa & Brienne makes a long, fast, and dangerous trek to the only family she knows is still alive: Jon Snow at the Wall. No, I don't think Alys Karstark is the girl in grey on a dying horse; I think she's a red herring, the same as the scene where Sweetrobin destroys the snow castle, and that the real girl in grey (who slays the savage giant) is Sansa. Melisandre says that she sees "Jon's sister" but doesn't specify more than that, or how she knows it's Jon's sister, even - why would she assume Alys is Jon's sister and not some random Northern girl? Why was she so sure that it was his sister? It's because Alys isn't the girl in grey, it's Sansa, her horse dying because she's traveled halfway across the continent with Brienne and Pod, desperately trying to keep ahead of the dozens of people hunting her down.

The Blood of Winterfell - Sansa and Jon will reclaim winterfell together. This one is similar to above; just like Alys was a red herring, the scene where Sansa rebuilds the castle has a lot of foreshadowing (imo) but that isn't the moment in the prophecy Arya hears. The Savage Giant is Littlefinger, the castle of snow is Winterfell, and Sansa is going to liberate her home alongside Jon and what's left of the Northern lords.

Stone and Snow Remains - THIS is where Sansa and Jon will fall in love while fighting for the North. This is also the part where you lose a lot of people, because they think the evidence is real weak sauce but like, I also think the Jonerys "evidence" is weak af too (and no wonder, we have at minimum 2k pages left to get through!!). There's several believed foreshadowing points to this one, bare with me for this weird ass formatting because I can't do sub bullet points on tumblr:

1. Sansa's linking of snow with love and affection - "drifting snowflakes brushed her face as light as lover’s kisses, and melted on her cheeks...She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams." along with her snow maiden and snow knight.

2. Bael the Bard and the Rose of Winterfell - the chapter where Sansa gets her period for the first time, Cersei refers to it as “flowering” a dozen times, linking being a maiden (a young girl, not quite of age or just barely of age) to flowers and several people refer to sex as ~plucking. Also notice the one who stole her from KL is Lord BAELish.

3. Aemon the Dragonknight & Queen Naerys - Sansa compares herself to Naerys, Joffrey to Aegon, and wishes for an Aemon, among the many similarities between her life and Naerys'. Jon not only calls himself Aemon, he has a deep connection with a different Aemon Targaryen. And if you’re thinking “Sansa isn’t Naerys, X is Naerys” I would remind you that Sansa as a character existed first, George purposefully had her compare herself to Naerys, and parallels don't belong to just one character.

4. Jenny of Oldstones and The Prince of Dragonflies - there's honestly a lot of parallels between them but like the Aemon/Naerys parallel, the Jenny/Duncan one stands out to me.

5. Janos Slynt - I mean. Iconic. This was the scene that made me first think about what their relationship could be in the future and there’s a reason Jonsas fixate on it. It’s about Sansa being desperate for a hero and the hero she dreamed about being Jon the whole time. 6. Societal Alienation - There's the bastard parallels here, the "it would be so sweet to see him again", the "Winterfell belongs to my sister, Sansa." It's about how Jon, through circumstances of his birth, finds himself alienated from the rest of society and reconnects with his prim and proper sister Sansa, who finds herself alienated from the rest of society as well but for vastly different reasons.

Robb’s Will - Howland is going to show up in the North, along with Maege and Galbert, with some WILD news about why Jon can’t rule Winterfell. There’s a lot of contention around this. Bran probably shows up around this time too, and Arya gets to the Riverlands to discover Lady Stoneheart and give her the gift of mercy. This is where all the inheritance stuff is going to happen and I have no idea how it's going to go down besides it's going to be messy as all fuck.

The Pact Of Ice And Fire - Jon & Sansa get secret married bc they’re in love, not siblings, & jon is the only man she trusts not to steal her claim. This isn't the only possible foreshadowing instance of a marriage either - some believe the Sandor/Sansa scene during the Battle of the Blackwater is foreshadowing as well (personally I feel that's a bit of a stretch but I wanted to include it anyway).

Jon As An Envoy - I talked about this in my "what's Jon's ending" a little but I believe Jon will act as an envoy for either Sansa or Bran to Aegon VI, essentially playing out a similar story that he does in the show with Daenerys. By which I mean, Jon is not the King because the ruler themselves do not go as an envoy, that’s stupid and dangerous, but he goes as an ambassador for Sansa or Bran, to treat with a new claimant to the Iron Throne that is gaining support - Aegon VI & Jon Connington. They will probably clash, Jon will probably have yet another identity crisis, there had BETTER be gay incest subtext, then Aegon dies, and Jon has his sixth quarter life crisis in a row.

“King” of the Gift - again, something I touched on in my Jon meta is that I think he’s going to have a hand in resettling the Gift. Personally, I think it's likely that Jon leaves to protect the claims of his siblings (see: Duncan and Jenny) and goes to the Gift to help resettle it to keep out of the way. This ending is typically referred to as the "bael the bard" ending but i like to think of it as the "brandon's gift" ending instead - though he is not physically with his family, Jon feels fulfilled having confirmed his family loves him through reclaiming Winterfell and marrying Sansa, being reunited with Arya, and being given the Gift by Bran. Sansa claims her children were fathered by a wolf.

So…what does all this do for the story?

Well, in my opinion, several things.

I think the main barrier here is that most people in the greater fandom describe Sansa's story as ~growing past childish wants~ and Jon's as ~rejecting love~ and I do not agree with either of those takes even a little bit. This is where (imo) the dividing line between Jonsas and the rest of the fandom is. I don’t think the answer to Sansa’s question “will anyone ever marry me for love” is going to be “nah" - that's not just a sad story to me (wanting to be married isn't childish! craving intimacy and understanding isn't childish! it's also not wrong for a child to be childish!), I think the idea that Sansa (or Jon) will not find another love just doesn't line up with how George approaches his story. Who Sansa's husband will be has been such a big question, and her story is so heavy into the more romantic tropes like courtly love and chivalry and the line between politics and love and identity, that the question of Sansa's hand in marriage will be plot relevant. I also think it's kinda naive of people to pretend like George isn't very interested in the sexual dynamics of the characters he writes about (yeah, sure, no woman needs a man but "needing a man" is not what this is about. look at everything this man wrote in F&B and tell me he is going to write a female character that longs for sex and desire and doesn't get it!).

After AGOT, nearly every time Sansa thinks about marriage involves her longing for love but believing she will never get it because a man will only ever love her for her claim. Giving her a man - like Jon - who not only will not steal her claim and in fact has defended it twice over already, who will love her for who she is and not what she can give him, is a really important aspect of her story in my opinion.

As for Jon, I am even more firmly against the opinion that his story is about rejecting love; Jon’s story is about wanting to be a good man, to measure up to his father ~despite~ his bastard blood. When Aemon asks if Ned would choose honor over love and Jon stubbornly says yes, Jon is wrong and it’s important to not forget that. Ned has never once in his entire life chosen honor over love; he chooses his daughter’s life over his honor, he chooses his sister & her son’s life over honor, he chooses Arya & Nymeria over honor, and on and on!!! Ned chooses love at almost turn but none of his children know that just yet - look at Robb choosing Jeyne’s honor over his own and how upset he is at the idea that Ned would be disappointed despite the fact that Ned would have understand Robb’s decision! Jon's whole arc is tied up in realizing that it is not wrong or dirty to feel and choose love, passion, and desire and if he never has another romantic arc again, I think you lose the second part of that lesson which is "you are responsible for how you act when you feel love but that doesn't mean that simply choosing love makes you a bad person."

There's also the fact that George has talked a lot about "who lives, who dies, who gets married" and yet we have not one marriage at the end of the show AND there's not a lot of guesses at what "who gets married" means besides Jon/erys (and even if Jonsa doesn't happen, I simply do not see Jon/erys happening. they are not similar enough, they will not be in the same space for long enough, and they are on wildlly different trajectories for their story, they are not getting married let alone having sex). I think Jonsa fits that bill very well.

These various theories - from Sansa being queen, Jon living in exile, The Ashford Tourney Theory, the secret marriage, every one of them - are ideas and themes that I have really been thinking about for about 12 years now. I think Jon and Sansa's relationship could fit with the themes in their stories, the overarching themes in the books, and my own personal opinions. I think it gives George a great opportunity to delve into the courtly love aspects he enjoys so much, as well as delve into inheritance, legacy, legitimacy, honor, incest (yes, that too), and above all, what George himself has said the whole series is about - love. The human heart in conflict with itself is what I think Jon and Sansa as a romantic couple does for the series.

[unserenedreaming]

Can Jonsas stop stealing shit??

I just saw a post that used the quote Melisandre told to Jon Snow about the grey girl on a dying horse, and do you know who the post was about?

Not Alys Karstark, the girl who showed up to the wall on a dying horse

Not Arya Stark, the person Jon loves most in the world, the person he thinks of in his dying moments.

No, it was Sansa. The post was just tagged with Sansa's name, which is likely how it got in my recommended since I have all Jonsa stuff blocked already. But I think we all know it's a Jonsa post.

For the love of GRRM himself, please stop taking shit that is already established as being about characters and making it about Jonsa. I get it, you have no real textual context that your ship will end up together. And you know what? That's ok! I have so may crack ships! But you know what I don't do? I don't steal shit that is about other people to try and prove my crack ship is true! I accept that it won't happen but I can have fun with it anyways because I like the characters and their potential, even if that potential will never come to be. But it is a specfically Jonsa trait to steal metas about other, far more likely to occur couples (Jonrya & Jonerys especially) and make it about their crackship.

It's so tiring at this point.

[libradoodle1]

In honor of this arctic blast we're having in many parts of the US, I'm reblogging the fic I wrote inspired by another winter snowstorm that kept me housebound for days. Is there a better trope than Jonerys being stuck together in the cold and having to resort to cuddling for 'warmth'? Maybe also sharing a bed? Melting the snow with their combined hotness? Don't think so.

Underneath it All | Chapter 1

Summary: A surprise snowstorm shuts down all of King’s Landing, catching new resident Daenerys Targaryen unprepared. With no power, water or food, she has no choice but to accept the offer from her hotter than the seven hells neighbor Jon Snow to stay with him.

The only problem? They hate each other.

But it’s said that love and hate are opposites of the same coin…

Read it here on AO3

[chic-beyond-the-wall-oc-acct]

Targaryen ship names make good Targaryen names in general.

I was thinking about this the other day when i was making Abigail's last child and i was going to name her Daensa, i thought it was pretty and i couldn't remember where i had seen it, low and behold it's the Daenerys x Sansa ship name! And it got me thinking about how other ship names are good for character. Think about it, Rhaegon, Daemyra, Jonerys, Rhaenicent, like??? If those were the names of actual Targaryens i wouldn't blink an eye. I know that the reason they make good Targaryen names is because of course are made with Targaryen names but the urge to make characters with those names is through the roof!!

Side bar, my friend was telling me about this one artist called Rosehaerys, which i also think is an excellent Targaryen name, and their art is IMMACULATE, they have nsfw stuff as well which gave me whiplash when my friend showed me lol.

[witchlingcirce]

I think we as a society should rename Jon and Daenerys ship from Jonerys to snowstorm

IK snowstorm gets used but it’s sooo much cooler than Jonerys and there’s like nooo Jon & Daenerys stuff under the taggg 😭😭 we need to rally behind it

[esther-dot]

I was reading your comments about Jon's chivalry and protecting the vulnerable. This all brought to mind Jon's TV ending of stabbing Dany in the heart while kissing her. While we don't know whether or not this version of Dany's end is close to what will be the written version, it seems as though it's possible in part because of the Nissa Nissa legend. Jon doing that in the books (or something like it) would align with the Azor Ahai story, but in a warped sort of way, leaving events open to interpretation (as is usual with the prophecies and legends). But in any case, Jon killing a woman will be an act that is antithetical to so many of his values that it seems like it would come close to destroying him even if justified within Jon's universe. I wonder if Martin really plans to bring Jon this low, but also how it will be received. The optics of portraying such an ending for Dany given today's sensibilities could be viewed even more dimly than it would have been when Martin started writing the series?

(about this ask)

I'm so sorry that it's taken me this long to respond! I have finally reread some pertinent chapters to situate my thoughts.

First, I just want to acknowledge how upsetting this spec is to some, and remind everyone, no one wants this ending. We all think it's gross, we're just discussing the possibility, not merely because of the show, because it's an old theory. I looked around and saw posts about this starting in 2013 by Dany fans. So, the presence of this myth is substantial enough, even BNFs/Jonerys shippers felt like it had a strong chance of manifesting (although they believe Dany would willingly sacrifice herself) well before D&D committed their fuckery. I suppose all that answers your question. Man killing his lover is a gross trope, being forced to kill a loved one to save the world is overused, so now, I can't imagine anyone reading it and being happy about it.

In trying to look at the context in-canon Martin has created, he's taken it out of the strict man kills lover idea of the AA/NN myth, and is discussing the idea of sacrificing an innocent child to a god which fans have already compared to myth, Stannis & Shireen = Agamemnon & Iphigeneia. This sacrifice hasn't happened yet, but it's been confirmed as a Martin plot point. Stannis is already burning people alive, justifying kid killing, and Davos has already planted the Stannis=AA, kid=NN idea:

Davos was remembering a tale Salladhor Saan had told him, of how Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer by thrusting it through the heart of the wife he loved. He slew his wife to fight the dark. If Stannis is Azor Ahai come again, does that mean Edric Storm must play the part of Nissa Nissa? (ASOS, Davos V)

Although, rather than this being a justified death, the fans will be horrified as we're meant to be. Davos' thoughts call into question the idea of killing another for your "magic sword":

A true sword of fire, now, that would be a wonder to behold. Yet at such a cost . . . When he thought of Nissa Nissa, it was his own Marya he pictured, a good-natured plump woman with sagging breasts and a kindly smile, the best woman in the world. He tried to picture himself driving a sword through her, and shuddered. I am not made of the stuff of heroes, he decided. If that was the price of a magic sword, it was more than he cared to pay. (ACOK, Davos I)

and Martin impresses upon us the value of each life:

"Your Grace," said Davos, "the cost . . ." "I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning . . . burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?" The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King's Landing. "If Joffrey should die . . . what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?" "Everything," said Davos, softly. (ASOS, Davos V)

The talk of greater good/killing kids reminds me of AGOT in which Ned's story is inundated with the topic of child murder/protecting kids. We have Mycah, his memories of Aegon and Rhaenys, his promise to protect Jon, his guilt over his lies and treason bubbling up repeatedly, his fight against the assassination of Dany, his attempt to save Cersei's children from Robert...we all know, kid killing is wrong according to Martin, so we've already been told that this wannabe AA's actions are contemptible. The myth in which the sacrifice is happy to die, that sacrificing someone is heroic, it's being contradicted by what we're being shown in the Stannis storyline.

Now, while Stannis is being declared Azor Ahai, we're constantly being told he isn't. Jon calls the act a mummer's farce and comments on his cold sword and that is right before a Dany chapter, so the idea is, Dany is actually AA. @trinuviel is the first person I saw lay out the argument for that and contend that being AA is a bad thing (meta parts 1, 2, 3). People have said that Drogo kinda becomes her Nissa Nissa in that scenario. She burns him to get the dragons, and what are the dragons called?

"When I went to the Hall of a Thousand Thrones to beg the Pureborn for your life, I said that you were no more than a child," Xaro went on, "but Egon Emeros the Exquisite rose and said, 'She is a foolish child, mad and heedless and too dangerous to live.' When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world." He wiped away the tears. "I should have slain you in Qarth." (ADWD, Daenerys III)

That kinda makes us think, oh, the myth already has a canon counterpart, don't need to worry about it anymore. Only, we've also said Rhaegar impregnating a young Lyanna could be read as a play on Nissa Nissa, with him risking her life to get the prophecy baby, otherwise known as the third head of the dragon. And Jon is not only a kind of dragon, he repeatedly intones that fun little phrase about being a sword, and sometimes, that happens within an interesting context (for speculation purposes):

"I will." Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. "Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?" the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would. Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realm of men, Jon reminded himself, and in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor. (ADWD, Jon VIII)

So, although there is one character that seems to be Azor Ahai (Dany), I am definitely open to the myth manifesting, or rather, being examined from multiple angles. IMO, that's what Martin is doing and we can use each variation to reassess what he's saying with it. We have Dany and Drogo (the official one/successful one), Rhaegar and Lyanna (not AA, but Jon is born), Stannis and Edric (denied), Stannis and Shireen (he will kill Shireen, but we don't know if he'll get what he wants and we do know he isn't AA)... lots of pics of a similar idea. To emphasize Stannis not being the dude and Dany being the "real" AA, we have that Jon passage and chapter transition:

Even though we have lots of contenders and commentary about this myth with the canon characters, none of it romanticizes human sacrifice, and all works towards the twist that what is said to be a hero/the weapon that will save people brings destruction. If we look back at it critically, Dany has a habit of accepting, or even causing, the suffering of others for her greater good, including sacrificing Mirri to get her dragons. We might even argue that Mirri is a Nissa Nissa for her, as Dany had taken Mirri under her protection before killing her to get dragons.

That being said, even though we're getting told this shit is bad in canon, the indictment of killing innocents and people who depend on you to protect them, it wouldn’t apply if someone were to kill Stannis or Dany. It isn’t on the same moral level as killing a child, or a spouse who loves and trusts you. It isn't the same as invading and then killing people who won't worship your god or accept you as a leader. It isn't the same as killing a slave, simply because, when their times come, Dany and Stannis will be guilty. After their actions, it would be justice for them to die. I think why other parts of the fandom entertain the idea of Dany as NN while also condemning us for entertaining it, is that Dany's vision does have her being grasped at by hands of her "children" and fans have this idea that she is sacrificing herself/her happiness for the greater good already, and in the AA/Nissa Nissa story, it does sound like she offers herself willingly for the tempering of the sword. So to them, it’s part of Dany’s heroism. Dany's death is inevitable to some, at the hands of Jon is ok, but her not dying a hero, that's unacceptable.

But thinking about how it's been discussed thus far, I can't imagine we're gonna get a romanticized version of the AA/NN myth in canon when so far, it's pretty dark/condemned. None of that precludes Jon killing Dany in what you described as a:

warped sort of way, leaving events open to interpretation (as is usual with the prophecies and legends).

which really sticks out to me as the important part of all this.

The idea that Jon might do it and characters recognize it as a tragic love story a la the myth, that fascinates me because of how Martin has written wild rumors into the story (rumors about Dany, Robb, and Sansa spring to mind), and some of us have written reality and what the public thinks into fic as two distinct things because it feels like a potential way the story might go. What is widely known to be true, like say, Jon being Ned's bastard, may not be the truth that we the readers come to know. There's no guarantee that Westeros will know what the readers know about past or future events. We may get a take on AA/NN, the characters in-world may not understand it the same way.

Jon is undeniably a hero, in a world where institutional corruption is rampant and ideals abandoned, he’s a standout in his values. We would expect, and we find, contrasts between him and these other characters (Dany, Rhaegar, Stannis), primarily, his practical actions that are about saving life/protecting life, even from Stannis, so the idea that he would abandon certain values, it's a tough one. The difference is, while Stannis, Rhaegar, and Dany were acting on these prophecies or visions or dreams, things we're repeatedly warned against trusting in the text, Jon would be taking action based on the fact that Dany is a mass-murderer, a threat to all of Westeros. It isn't a sacrifice to an unknown god for some promised mystical good, it's justice. The religious fanaticism wouldn't be a factor, the killing of an innocent wouldn't be a factor, killing a child wouldn't be a factor, killing to achieve a self-serving end wouldn't be a factor. All the things that have been criticized thus far aren't at play.

The moral quandary presented to the audience in AGOT is killing someone who might be a threat, but is a child at the moment, and Martin presents the sneaky assassination / child killing as abhorrent:

Grand Maester Pycelle cleared his throat, a process that seemed to take some minutes. "My order serves the realm, not the ruler. Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now, so I bear this girl child of his no ill will. Yet I ask you this—should war come again, how many soldiers will die? How many towns will burn? How many children will be ripped from their mothers to perish on the end of a spear?" He stroked his luxuriant white beard, infinitely sad, infinitely weary. "Is it not wiser, even kinder, that Daenerys Targaryen should die now so that tens of thousands might live?" "Kinder," Varys said. "Oh, well and truly spoken, Grand Maester. It is so true. Should the gods in their caprice grant Daenerys Targaryen a son, the realm must bleed." Littlefinger was the last. As Ned looked to him, Lord Petyr stifled a yawn. "When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, the best thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it," he declared. "Waiting won't make the maid any prettier. Kiss her and be done with it." "Kiss her?" Ser Barristan repeated, aghast. "A steel kiss," said Littlefinger. (AGOT, Eddard VIII)

which is all interesting context for Dany later being assassinated, especially because the first lesson Martin gives us on justice is one that Jon is there for, and then is reiterated in relation to Dany:

Ned had heard enough. "You send hired knives to kill a fourteen-year-old girl and still quibble about honor?" He pushed back his chair and stood. "Do it yourself, Robert. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. Look her in the eyes before you kill her. See her tears, hear her last words. You owe her that much at least." (AGOT, Eddard VIII)

The convo about killing Dany with LF is about a bedding and before that it was presented in terms of a wedding gift, which makes me squint now knowing the AA/NN stuff:

Yes, it's awful, and I do understand, almost agree with you here:

But in any case, Jon killing a woman will be an act that is antithetical to so many of his values that it seems like it would come close to destroying him even if justified within Jon's universe.

but the way it might tie together the initial discussion of killing Dany and the eventual act weighs heavily with me when determining what Martin might do and why/why not.

The other suggestion is that Arya kills Dany. If having dragons is Chechov's gun for KL burning then Arya being a trained assassin feels like a Chechov's gun for killing Dany. But in that scenario, there is no conflict. No inner struggle. We spent so much of AGOT weighing the morals of killing Dany, it's hard for me to believe when the time comes, it's presented without any moral complexity. Arya is already able and willing to take a life, even when it isn't justified. It doesn't feel right to me that killing Dany would be a presented without an inner struggle, that it would be done easily, as easily as Arya now kills. TBH, it removes the drama if someone other than Jon does it because it will be so highly necessary and just when the time comes. Jon is really the only character who can make it squeamish because of the guy killing a woman thing and because it will be kinslaying.

There is a lot of talk about poison, so I think it's totally possible Arya tries to kill Dany with poison first, but I think Jon is more likely to be the one to successfully kill her, and in a way that calls to mind Ned's opinion on it, See her tears, hear her last words. That would allow Martin to make sure we see it as just/moral, bring home the Targ v Targ issue, and it shades Ned's decisions and values in a very interesting way.

After s8 fans said Ned was wrong to fight against killing Dany in s1, but Martin thinks he was right to object to killing children, so for the two Targ children he was protecting in AGOT (Dany and Jon) to come face to face and one kill the other prevents the conclusion that Ned was wrong. It was the same mercy, the same refusal to see the child of an enemy as an enemy, that saved the boy who will in turn save Westeros. IMO, it's a way to uphold the belief in mercy. I tend to think it’s also Martin’s way of addressing one his questions about his beloved LOTR (what about orc babies etc).

If another person ends Dany, we still get dead Dany, but it doesn't say anything interesting? Killing her wouldn't be a sacrifice on anyone else's part, she won’t be loved and she has to go. But, Jon, who so desperately wants to have honor, if he kills her, it's right as well as an egregious "sin." Ned dishonors himself to protect Sansa (and obvy was committing treason to protect Jon), it feels like coming full circle for Jon, who so wants to be worthy of being a son to Ned to follow his path there too. Also, one thing I expect we’ll keep tracking is kinslaying. Kinslaying comes up with the AA/Nissa Nissa issue in the Stannis storyline, so I do expect that to be addressed in Jon chapters:

We have the whole baby switch to assure us, Jon values human life a great deal. All the same, that involves a moment of cruelty on Jon's side, so Martin isn't interested in keeping him perfectly pure. He likes those moments where doing the right thing is very difficult, even compromising in some way. It's why, while we say Ned committing treason for Jon is a no brainer, Martin writes Ned tortured by it. He likes the inner turmoil over decisions, placing a societal good (honor) against another obligation or ideal and asking what is right.

I wonder if Martin really plans to bring Jon this low, but also how it will be received. The optics of portraying such an ending for Dany given today's sensibilities could be viewed even more dimly than it would have been when Martin started writing the series?

Despite all the ways I think it makes sense, yes, I def think this is one of those areas that if he had finished the series as quickly as he'd hoped, would have gone over better. Dany has dragons, therefore, she will be an overwhelming threat to Westeros, so it isn't like Jon will just randomly kill a woman, yet it's distasteful all the same. Martin is looking at things from the context of his story and the ideas he’s already introduced/talking about though which is why I can wince but kinda understand it. There are other issues where my sensibilities diverge from his, so didn’t like it on the show, I don’t like it for the books, still think it’s probably gonna happen. 🤷🏻‍♀️