#lilliana temult

[stickandthorn]

I was thinking about that post about redemption I just reblogged, and I think it’s worth pointing out just how difficult and time consuming it would to de-radicalize or “redeem” Lilliana. And I think Essek’s redemption in campaign 2 is actually a really good example of what I’m talking about.

First of all, what the Nein did to redeem Essek was not slowly and politely talk him through why what he did was wrong. They didn’t even know he did anything wrong. What they did was continually reach out to him and give him a support system of friends he did not have before. Notably, friends who he could be comfortable sharing his worldview around: he was an atheist* in a theocratic society who had to hide his worldview in order to have any social, academic, or governmental standing. The mighty nein were probably the first people he could be himself around, and creating a change in his personal life is what led to a change in his ideology. Notably, he did most of the actual deconstructing of his ideology on his own, some before the big betrayal reveal and a lot after. The Nein helped with that directly a little, but the main thing they did was offer him a personal connection he had stakes in, and a people in his life with different world views he hadn’t seen up close before.

This is pretty true to life, in the real world, most people who leave radical or bigoted groups leave at least partially because of a change in their personal life. Even if they do leave because of someone directly challenging their worldview, it’s usually someone they care about who challenges them in a non-aggressive way. It’s still personal.

Secondly, this took a lot of time. I can’t remember exactly how long they spent in the Dynasty, but they befriended Essek over a really long period of in game and out of game time. The cast spent actual real world hours talking pretty much one on one with Essek, and the party spent weeks, maybe even months slowly getting to know him and bringing this support structure into his life. Essek spent even longer actually thinking through and deconstructing on his own. The change in his worldview between the ship and the outpost really shows this, he did a lot of the thinking that led him to change by himself over a lot of time we weren’t there for. They could not have gotten him to actually change his mindset, fully realize what he did was wrong of his own free will, in anything approaching a short amount of time. This was a time consuming process.

All this to say: this is the kind of effort it would take to legitimately de-radicalize Lilliana. She has been in the Vanguard for ~25 years, she most likely joined when she was in her early to mid 20s, and she gave up all personal connections, even her daughter and her husband to join. Not only has her entire ideology been built around this being the right thing to do, her entire personal life is contained within the Vanguard. It’s most likely where she gets any housing or money or really anything from. It is her whole life, and she believes wholeheartedly in it. The level of time and effort it took to get Essek to organically change his mind is most likely the level it would take to get Lilliana to change hers, if not more.

And they don’t have that time. Lilliana is actively doing harm now, she is helping the Vanguard release Predathos right now, they simply do not have the time to redeem her. It sucks, but pragmatically speaking, it is simply not worth the time and effort. Essek gave away the beacons in the past, but also, the Nein did not know he did that for their early friendship. If the Nein had known, they probably would not have put in all the work it took to get him to change. They probably couldn’t have. Lilliana might be able to be redeemed in theory, but so can a lot of people who do very bad things. Focusing on that redemption process is prioritizing Imogen’s complicated feelings over the harsh reality that this is a war, and Lilliana is a key figure in that war doing a great deal of harm. It sucks, but I do think it’s time to move on, and I think Imogen is now leaning that way.

*atheist is a loose term here, it’s hard to be an atheist in a world where gods are proven to exist, but it gets the point across

[cassafrasscr]

Lilliana: Predathos is just using Ludinus as a means to its own ends. 🙂

Me: *screaming* THEN HOW IS PREDATHOS ANY DIFFERENT FROM THE GODS YOU CLAIM ARE MANIPULATIVE TYRANTS?!?!

[unhookedchalk48]

"Cold comfort for my family in the ground"

FUCKING COOK HER ASS ORYM HELL YEAH

[least-favorite-th0t]

I think it’s so interesting and cool that we got to see two different groups reactions to Imogen and her similarities/relationship to Lilliana. Like on one hand the imperium being star struck. I even think if Imogen introduced herself as Lillianas kid she would still get that same kind of reverence, then on the other hand we had all the volition people treating her like just her being Lillianas daughter was their worst nightmare like they were ready to ice her on the spot. It really shows how feared and powerful Lilliana is, like girl what have you been doing on the moon to have everyone kind of scared of you. Seeing how Imogen kept that facade or toughness and kind of arrogance was also way interesting! Like girl what’s going on with you! Temult women the ways y’all’s brains work is so fascinating!!!

[xxwillowpotatox]

Imogen Temult

[topaz-mutiny]

Tell me you're under 30 without telling me you're under 30:

Thinking when 50-ish year old Lilliana Temult says "children" she means literal pre-teens and not anyone her daughter's age (28) or younger.

[automatictrashwolf]

That was so intense!

"I'll see you in your dreams"

[flowersosa]

The worst part of having a mother in a cult, who is so terrified of leaving it, is having a daughter who aims to destroy it.

Imogen, darling, your mother is compromised. Do. Not. Trust. Her.

[skyeisproductive]

Lilliana really needs to actually be useful for once

[quinn-of-aebradore]

I keep thinking about the vision Lilliana showed Imogen last night and just…

What if that is what Predathos showed and promised Ludinus? But just not in the way any of them have seemed to consider? Burdens gone, a feeling of freedom, nothing remaining to worry about. Sounds an awful lot like the moment of release as you die, to me. What if Predathos showed Ludinus the truth, that it’s release will consume and kill Exandria and Ludinus, through willful ignorance or wild misinterpretation, simply held to a different understanding of that vision? And of course, he is who he is, that understanding must be true. So he passes it along to his followers like that.

[bellowsthebard]

Gonna be thinking about imogen's nat one for the rest of time.

[wavebiders]

noooooo I wanted her to come back with them

[cassafrasscr]

Not only is Lilliana full of shit... I think (at least subconsciously) she knows she's full of shit.

Here's thing #1. She claimed in the most recent episode (C3 E92) that she didn't become aware of the heinous crimes committed by the Ruby Vanguard until recently.

If she only just learned that Ludinus' plans involve doing some seriously evil shit... then why would she insist that she's the only one capable of curbing his worst impulses?

Really, Lilliana? If you know Ludinus is doing bad things, and he would do worse things if you weren't around to reign him in, you can't claim ignorance as an excuse for your involvement in his plans.

#2. If you don’t think Predathos is dangerous to mortals, why would you have spent the last 10 years in Imogen's dreams telling her to run away? Why would you be so afraid for Imogen the first time you noticed her attempting to commune with Predathos directly?

I guess it could be argued that communing with Predathos could draw Imogen further into what Ludinus is doing. But even then... if Predathos is really the one in charge, and is just manipulating Ludinus, why not just ask Predathos directly not to involve Imogen in its plans? Does Predathos not care about harming its Ruidusborn children? Do you think Predathos would lie to you, even though you claim to know exactly what it does and doesn't want?

Lilliana KNOWS that the Ruby Vanguard are committing enormous harm to normal people. She KNOWS that Predathos is dangerous to mortals.

As Lilliana herself has said... she's in too deep to back out now. Or at least, that's what she believes. She's spent AT LEAST 10 years (probably longer) following Ludinus and fighting for his cause. She gave up her life with her husband and daughter to pursue this. If she leaves now, all that time and work and pain will have been wasted.

Not only that, but the idea that this mission she's given up her whole life to pursue might be a lie? Lilliana has made this cause her entire life and identity. Imogen and her friends aren't just challenging the plan. They're challenging everything that makes Lilliana who she is as a person. If her cause is a lie, Lilliana herself is a lie.

Plus, the thought that the plan she's been fighting for has already done immense, irreparable harm to thousands of people across Exandria AND Ruidus... and threatens to do even more damage still? It's unbearable. She thought the cause she's devoted her life to and sacrificed so much for was just and beneficial. Now that she's being challenged by someone she loves (her daughter) with undeniable evidence to disprove that idea, she's trying to double down. She can't process the thought that not only is she the villain in someone else's story... they would actually be right to think of her that way.

All this is to say: I think a big part of why Lilliana is such a frustrating, infuriating character... is that she's actually a pretty realistic depiction of a member of an extremist cult. The problem is that deprogramming from those patterns of thought and behavior takes a long, long time. Time that Bell’s Hells may not be able to give her.

(All the negative feelings about Lilliana are, of course, valid. She also makes me Big Mad, lol, especially after the latest episode. That said, she's also a very interesting and compelling character... based on all the meta I've seen written about her since last night, anyway. Good job, Matt Mercer! 😂)

[hollowblossom]

personally, if my mother chose some old ass elf dude over me, i’d be pretty upset about it

[onewolfaday]

032. imogen temult but werewolf au

[stickandthorn]

So clearly the average guy on Ruidius knows who Lilliana Temult is, and can recognize her based off of description/name very easily. And it can’t just be from exposure to her given that level of infamy there has to be some propaganda building all that reputation up. So I like to imagine there’s like psychic versions of propagandist badass fan edits of her and Otohan floating around the hive mind. Like military recruitment psyop thirst trap tiktoks yknow.