#messiah figure

[exiaax]

dni if you don't like these angels

look in tags for me going crazy about these three hahahahahahahaha

[ludinusdaleth]

with the obligatory precursor statement of "the gods are not based on any earthen pantheon and thus cannot be drawn directly to any of our dieties, but downfall is heavily intentionally pulling from religious imagery": it is insane (in the best way) of nick marini to show up to critical role for his very first time and play pelor as the messiah shepherd giving food & shelter to poor refugees. whilst boarding a ship of regufees. to nuke the city that harbors them

[ducotte-real]

Hey lol so like. So like space players and they're red saviors huh

[transbeamrooikat]

thinking about how its implied that Paul WILL eventually ecologically destroy dune. how in his quest to bring them "paradise" he will destroy their way of living. the way my heart sunk whenever it was mentioned. the way we see how badly water effects the worms

[shiveringsoldier]

Lawrence of Arabia (1962) dir. David Lean

[arlathvhenan]

So anyway if it turns out Solas was in fact Shartan do you think he ever got wild with Andraste?

[confusion-est]

The future shines bright It doesn't mean anything good

[15-lizards]

Thinking about how that for all their religiosity, you never see anyone in Dune worship any sort of god. Technically, belief of higher powers exists in the canon, but I’m nearly done with the first book and I can’t find any mention of someone actually praying to a god. No preaching about any sort of afterlife. What does this mean for Paul and the Fremen I wonder. Are they following this boy in the absence of a god??? Or is this a symbol of the deteriorating of their culture once they begin to follow him???

[dustorange]

omg pls share more about your sub stack project??

okay so SABBATEANISM.

the over-under: in the 17th century, in the muslim world, there was a man named shabbetai sevi, and he was making enormous, global waves because he was believed to be the messiah. i’m talking seriously, deeply, truly believed to be the messiah by people from all over the world. enormous amounts of gold donated. etchings carved. sincere true belief. kabbalist mystic etc. He was born in smyrna—he travels all over—the grand vizier has him imprisoned. It is a problem, of course, if this man is claiming to be the jewish messiah and people are believing him. Zevi is transferred between prisons before he ends up in one in Adrianople. The sultan, MEHMED THE HUNTER, hears about him and summons him to his court. Mehmet asks Zevi to explain himself. Who is he—really?

Here’s a good-enough retelling of sevi’s response, poetically true if not 100% word-for-word—although historicity matters loads:

“Shabbathai Zevi answered, with a trembling heart, and said, ‘My lord, the Sultan, I am a Jewish Rabbi. I fear the great God, the God of Abraham, from my youth till now. As to what men are saying concerning me, that I am the Messiah, when it shall come to pass at the time accepted by the great God, the question will be settled, whether it shall be accomplished by my hands or by those of another man. This is known to our God.’”

When the Sultan heard his words, he was wroth, and said, ‘If it be true, according to thy words, that thou fearest God, I will prove thee, as thy father Abraham was proved.’

What choice was Zevi asked to make to prove himself? An oft-repeated claim is that Zevi was given three choices: impalement; a trial by ordeal with arrows, which would, if Zevi’s claims to messiahdom were true, be deflected by heaven; or conversion to Islam. This is fascinating because it sets up three dimensions through which we can view a person’s belief:

Impalement—to die for your beliefs without, presumably, truly believing those beliefs. This is a hardnose kind of surrender. It lets you escape interpersonal shame—you won’t live to see the shame in your supporters’ faces, but you will also be giving up the game, implicitly, ante-mortem; you are saying that you are a fake. After all, if you were real, why not take the chance and face the arrows?

Trial by ordeal—to keep up the charade to the very end. This option, one hopes, would be preferable. And if the arrows are not deflected, hasn’t the Sultan just made the messiah into a martyr? Of course, seeing the so-called messiah’s claims refuted, and seeing the messiah bleeding and dead…it may show definitively that you were false.

Apostasy—to save your skin but bear the judgment of your disciples.

BEFORE WE SAY WHAT ZEVI CHOSE, we should toward the historiography surrounding Sabbateanism. Also, just internet history in general. Above you may have noticed the red-flag term: “oft-repeated claim.” It was said in relation to Zevi’s three-choices-ism. If you Google or Microsoft Edge (Bing?) the phrase “Zevi” or “Sevi” or “false messiah” alongside “three choices,” you will see that there are many websites describing the tripartite choice Zevi faced. 

Even this Fine Judaica antiques seller, Kestenbaum & Company, typed the “three choices” story in their digital history-of-the-piece description. 

And our nail-in-the-coffin, this-is-the-absolute-definitive-truth proof: Wikipedia says it. 

Quoth that foul beast Wikipedia (okay, maybe I’m giving away where this is going): 

The kaymakam informed Sultan Mehmed IV and Sabbatai was removed from Abydos and taken to Adrianople,[9] where the vizier gave him three choices; subject himself to a trial of his divinity in the form of a volley of arrows (should the archers miss, his divinity would be proven); be impaled; or convert to Islam.[16]

That’s that rumor we described earlier! Except is it really true? Let’s check out an interesting citational character from that Wikipedia excerpt—that [16]. That [16] should tell us something about the kind of historiography we’re working with here. The footnote source labeled [16] in the paragraph above that belongs to the Wikipedia article for Shabbetai Sevi is a 2011 book titled God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. This book is by Christopher Hitchens. And indeed, on page 171, Mr. Hitchens lays out the three-part system we are familiar with by now. 

And yet no other historical source that I have found has been able to back up this three-choice idea. Instead, they relay something very different. Something much more dualistic. Something that sounds much simpler 2 our two ears. Zevi was offered two choices. Go searching on your own for old sources of this event. I’ll give one here, but you don’t have to just take my word for it. 

Giacomo Saban, in “Sabbatai Sevi as Seen by a Contemporary Traveler,” relays:

When the Sultan saw him, he asked him if it was true that he was the Messiah of the Jews, as was being said everywhere. The Jew gave the Gran Signor the same answer he had given the Vizir, namely, that this was not true, although the Jews were making it known as such. "Perhaps," he said, "they have recognized in me certain talents and particular knowledge that God has granted me, and for this reason they prefer me to any other. I declare," he added, "in the presence of Your Majesty not to be the Messiah; in fact, I renounce entirely such a dignity."

"So be it," the Sultan answered, "but in order to remove the scandal that you have brought on the People of this Empire and in order to free your Nation from this lie, it is necessary that you become a Muslim or that you now resolve to die." He was given no more than a moment to decide. Without thinking too much about it, he readily declared that he wanted to live and die a good turk.

In the end, Shabbetai Zevi says that he is not the messiah—and not even, any longer, a Jew. He becomes a Muslim, a turban wearer (a very meaningful signifier of renunciation of what he was and acceptance of something else in this place-and-time), and, to put it charitably, pretty much a door holder for the Turks. (More, too, but for brevity, we’ll leave it there.)

All of this! What does all of this matter? It’s some microhistory in the Jewish Ottoman story. So what that Wikipedia got it wrong, said THREE instead of TWO? So what that Wikipedia getting it wrong influenced the narrative for pop culture pop history articles about Sevi?

IT MATTERS BECAUSE TWO OPTIONS VERSUS THREE OPTIONS IS VERY DIFFERENT. It matters because it shows a vulnerability in our information production line in the internet era. And it matters because if he was wrong about the basic, most fundamental details of Shabbetai Zevi’s story, what else might the author of God Is Not Great be wrong about?

Anyway! The substack is going to be called Three Choices From Adrianople. It’s going to go deep into the players in the Zevi story—Zevi, Mehmet, Nathan of Gaza, the vizier—in historical profile kind of way, but other articles are going to cover other false messiahs in the Ottoman world. I’m also hoping to tackle some theological elements, plus some MORE big historiographical issues.

[tallwife]

2024 rankings so far

[opens-up-4-nobody]

I just need to know if people love or hate him and if they think he's good at being so bad. I want to know what the people think of him as a character. Pls. Pls. Tell me what u think of him in ur tags.

[theeflowerofcarnage]

Just finished Jaws of Hakkon dlc in DAI so I got to learn all about the first inquisitior Ameridan how nobody remember the sacrifices he was forced to make as inquisitor, how everyone refused to believe he loved an Elven Mage (bc fantasy racisms and fear of magic blah blah blah) and the new age of heroes he created with the invention of The Templars and Seekers (before it turned to shit) and you know fucking what? This explains a lot about why I love the emperor romance from bg3! That man was NWAT a hedge fund manager in his past life he literally feels like a protagonist from a prequel game coming back for a final time. He was just a random ass dude w no money then he became pirate king then he became a city founder then his legend got SO big people invoke his name in game ljke he’s Jesus Christ. He’s older than Bhaal God of Murder. Yeah he “came back wrong” (not to me tho) but he still falls for you and sees himself in you!. And ima b real if i got to play as Balduran I’d make all the same mistakes. Yeah I would get a little egomaniacal abt the unique seat I occupy as “God Emperor” of a wealthy port city hmmm yeah I’d totally build an underground trial named after ME to test future hero’s abilities and of fucking course I’d put my dragon husband in charge of the place when I inevitably realize this is too much for me n go back to doing what I love which was treasure hunting and adventuring then boom accidentally made Ilithid :/ womp womp

[rearranging-deck-chairs]

if graham thought the used to be a man thing was just joking and like 5 minutes earlier she said she used to live in the outback for 123 years, he also definitely doesnt have ANY idea how old she is does he

[revelisms]

He's not a religious man. 

Superstitious, perhaps; spiritual, hardly—but Fate has her ways: claw-tipped fingers blue and demure, weaving chance like a seamstress bobbins thread.

And maybe Vander, the Hound, Zaun, this child—maybe all of it exists as the needle; he, the tear in need of stitching.

A loose thread; a future yet to be sewn.

A patchwork parable: smoke and schemes.

They spoke of his mother like a sickly omen, and his father like a begone spirit, vanished.

They spoke of him like something intangible: a concept, a slip of a butchered tongue, a wash of light from a galaxy gated in smog. Yet his steps hold sound: heavy-footed heels, heel-to-steel-tipped-toe, a graceless carryover of the mines; his clothes hold scents: of the Lanes' sweet-soured stench, of tobacco and juniper leaf, of cedar oil and citrus and clove. 

In the churches, he splits the silence with every stride, and sinks into an empty pew, in an empty hall, incense pluming fragrant off glittering tile and gilded glass and a child's scribble tucked in his pocket, paper pinched half-minded beneath his thumb—and he does not pray.

No, he is not a religious man. 

To be anything near it would be to deny the blood-soaked earth on which he stood: the blood his roots have drank from, his branches have beared fruit from, that his people have devoured: stripped the leaves for their bedding, splintered the branches for their kindling, consumed with the careless abandon of a youth's first harvest—one who has forgotten to sew the next.

(Needle, or thread?)

Most days, he wills himself not to care.

Superstition begs differently.

He will wash his hands thrice, on the mornings the sun shines too cleanly, simmers through jade-paneled glass and sits like a pyre on his cave-chilled scales; he will turn the lamps down low, on the days the storms wash the streets clean; he will keep a gun at his back and a knife at his waist, on the days he feels safe enough, and a dozen more, on the ones he doesn't; he will eat alone, standing, hunched at the open draft of a night burned with neon, before he ever thinks to sit at the kitchen table.

Strange habits. Stranger beliefs.

They say the Sun's a devil of disease, don't you know? That the storms of Jan'ahrem's sleeves are the oldest gods of all. That one ought to wear a bullet for every Sump-layer they cross. That those buried within their bowls may just as soon be buried beneath the rubble.

A canary, they called him. An irony.

Sooner to squawk than to sing; a wingless creature slimed from the Pilt.

A manifest.

Needles and thread.

He sung only at an ivory cast of 88 keys, a girl at his knee and a set of knobby fingertips skipping beneath his own, as the words little girl blue slipped too quietly off the tongue.

He prayed only at the altar of Vander's knees.

In the churches, he leaves his tithes, and slithers off in a prowl of loping boots. Heel-to-toe thud-thudding, hands pocketed, wool sweeping. 

The streets greet their Unholy, their Deliverance, their Own with blind chaos, devouring. Countless lives lived; countless threads, stitched and unraveling.

From his breast pocket, he snaps open a gilded cigarette case, and walks on.

Tobacco weaves through the fibers of his coat.

silco / on prayers

[formulanni]

Charles Leclerc is so Joan of Arc coded I can’t explain it

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

Thinking about Jon, Jaime, and Theon all journeying to the underworld and being surrounded by death/dead people. I’ve always believed that the important connector here is Jon (because I believe he functions as a sort of God of the Dead figure - though that’s a story for another day), but like…it’s so interesting that all of them have this experience, and that Theon’s and Jaime’s dreams are connected mostly to Jon (and I guess to each other if you buy into weirwood.net). It’s hard not to read into the religious symbolism here because GRRM is no C.S Lewis so it’s hard to tell what Christian parallels are intended by the author. But like…one messiah, two “criminals”, all go through “death”? But who will reach salvation and who won’t? 🤔