#only for a sw show/movie just to retcon it

[finns-poe]

You know mentioning the jealousy my gut tells me they were going for the romance angle in this movie but Disney made them cut it out. Which is why Oscar was so vocal abt it, why he was jealous the the entire time, why they probably introduced Zorri so jealous5 goes both ways and Poe was only flirting to get a rise out of Finn, and why the entirety of Resistance Reborn esp when they said Rose and Rey were just friends with Finn nothing more, and the hands scene and the alternative hug and….need i go on?

FACTS!📠 Still mad that they threw in Zorri for the sole reason to shut down finnpoe smh. Anyway Resistance Reborn is MY third sequel movie yep yep.

[dreams-are-paper-thin]

There's a great disturbance in the fandom about whether Sabine is Force-sensitive or not. So let's take a look from the beginning.

In A New Hope, Obi-Wan explains the Force as:

It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us; it binds the galaxy together.

And according to George Lucas himself:

In Rebels, Kanan uses Obi-Wan's explanation for the Force more than once. There's an important conversation in Trials of the Darksaber, which is related to this and to Sabine.

Hera: Or maybe because she doesn't have the Force, you don't believe she can do this?

Kanan: No. The Force resides in all living things. But you have to be open to it. Sabine is blocked. Her mind is conflicted. She's so expressive and yet so tightly wound. She's so...

Hera: Mandalorian.

Kanan: Very.

Kanan never says Sabine doesn't have the Force. On the contrary, Hera says she doesn't have it and Kanan says no. What Kanan says implies that Sabine does have it, she's just not open enough to wield it.

Keep those quotes in mind for later.

Now, we have to address the Bantha in the room: the midichrolians. We're introduced to this concept in the prequels trilogy, I believe. It serves as a more technical explanation of the Force. The SW fandom wiki offers this definition:

Again, the midichrolians are in all living organisms because the Force resides in all living things.

As far as the movies go, we don't know how high the M-count has to be for someone to be able to wield the Force. We just know Anakin has a count of over 20.000 and that it's a very high number, so he's very strong in the Force.

We can assume that the higher the midichrolians, the more aptitude the user has in the Force.

I'm guessing Sabine has a low M-count, thus limited abilities in the Force because of this line in episode 2 of Ahsoka:

Huyang: I have know many padawns over the centuries, and I can safely say your aptitude in the Force would fall short of them all.

Some people interpreted this line as "Sabine isn't Force-sensitive at all." What I understand from that line is that Sabine sucks at using the Force.

Either way, midichrolians haven't even been mentioned in the show, but I've seen people talk about it regardless. I find most discussion of this kinda pointless because there's not much to go on, so we can only speculate.

Moving on. In episode 3, Ahsoka trains Sabine blindly so she has to rely on the Force to see. I think a lot of people missed that Sabine did, in fact, use the Force in that scene. Watch carefully.

2:16. After Sabine has grown impatient for not succeeding, she finally manages to sense Ahsoka's presence (she still couldn't see and Ahsoka didn't touch Sabine) and fight a little, until Ahsoka stomps on her foot and Sabine falls to the floor.

Ahsoka: Anger and frustration are quick to give power. But they also unbalance you.

Why would Ahsoka say that in the first place if Sabine hadn't used the dark side of the Force? She probably struggles with the light side because it's so different from what she's used to as a mandalorian. It's more aligned to her nature.

Later in the same episode, this conversation takes place:

Sabine: I can't use the Force. I don't feel it. Not like you do.

Ahsoka: The Force resides in all living things. Even you.

Sabine: If that's true, then why doesn't everyone use it?

Ahsoka: Talent is a factor. But training and focus are what truly define someone's success. Not everyone can handle the type of discipline it takes to master the ways of the Force.

This fits perfectly with Obi-Wan's quote and what George Lucas said in the interview. This is consistent within the Star Wars universe and Dave Filoni's previous work.

It does not break the canon, it does not retcon anything. We simply hadn't seen before someone training to use the Force and struggle so much with it.

And to me, that is far more interesting than having every single main character being just overly and naturally competent with the Force. You don't have to be the Chosen One to use the Force, you just have to have enough determination to put in the work.

Back to Ahsoka. In episode 4 (the latest episode that's come out since I'm writing this) Sabine manages to do a very slight Force push during her duel with Shin. I know many people will disagree with me, but just watch the scene again.

1:22. Shin disarms Sabine and knocks her to the ground. Sabine extends her hand and Shin is slightly pushed back. Her arm falls down, her head turns to the side.

I've seen multiple people say Shin did this in anticipation (when has anyone everyone done that?) and that Sabine didn't Force push her. But the thing is, there's a Force push sound effect. Listen closely. It's faint and short, but it's definetely there.

I think Shin's line also confused a lot of people.

Shin: You have no power.

This is not "Sabine tried to use the Force and failed and Shin reiterates it." Again, there's a Force sound effect. That should be proof enough that she's somewhat connecting to the Force. They wouldn't put it there if she wasn't using the Force.

I think Shin and Baylan, as sith/dark jedi or whatever they are, see the Force only as a means to power. That's what Baylan is seeking with all this anyway: power.

Someone with low Force-sensitivity like Sabine would seem totally powerless to them. Everyone has been telling Sabine she's not good enough for it (Huyang, Shin, even Sabine herself.)

So, you can totally disagree with me on this, but I personally interpreted that line as Shin telling Sabine to quit while she's ahead. If she'll never be as powerful as the rest of them, why even bother to try? But Sabine, as the stubborn mandalorian she is, still continues to try.

I think Dave Filoni is painting a very clear picture: Sabine can indeed use the Force, but she's not naturally skilled at it. I think she might still have some sort of block from it, like Kanan said. The show seems to be slowly building up to her wielding the Force more succesfully, though. Starting small, one step at a time.

With Sabine's decision (she didn't have much choice, if you ask me) near the end of episode 4, I do wonder if Sabine will be a dark side user. Shin and Baylan use the dark side but they don't seem to be consumed by it. We'll just have to wait and see.

I understand that people think that Sabine being Force-sensitive diminishes her character, but so far I don't think that's the case. She still uses her blasters and some mandalorian tricks up her sleeve. This just adds another layer to her character. Natasha Liu Bordizzo said in an interview somewhere that Sabine changes fighting styles frequently, and I think we'll see more of that soon.

As long as Sabine stays true to her mandalorian ways, I'm fine with it. How cool would it be to have a mandalorian-jedi in the mandoverse? Sabine has been kind of disconnected to her mandalorian heritage for a long time now, and I'm sure she won't be a regular Jedi, if a Jedi at all. She's a special breed, one of a kind. Who knows, maybe she'll help to bring balance to the Force after all.

If Bo-Katan can walk both worlds, then so can Sabine.

[padme-amitabha]

I just saw a post calling ahoska and obi wan anakins truest loves and uh what? It brought up the mortis arc of tcw and essentially minimizing the anidala love for one another as some form of escapism and how its poison ( even tho vader literally gets saved bc of luke - padmes son🙄) Its so strange how ahsoka fans want to make her a more prominent character than she really is. Also a recurring opinion that gets brought up is ahsoka knowing/understanding anakin better than padme and obi wan when she didn’t even know things about him (like he was a slave) and we consistently see anakin confide in padme its just so odd how alot of star wars fans diminish her

That doesn't surprise me at all since Star Wars is Ahsoka Wars at this point. And even if it wasn't, you have to give the Skywalkers at least some rest uk? The constant retconning and addition of new stuff most people didn't even ask for is tiresome. Ahsoka from the start felt very OC-ish to me because she was constantly hyped and favored in a way not even Anakin was. She felt like a self-insert jedi character so her place is canon is just weird. And forcing her to be important in places where she's not needed just shows Filoni's favoritism. At least GL wasn't ever really biased towards Anakin and Luke. Anakin mainly suffered through so much and had enough flaws and complexies which Ahsoka never had. She's constantly in a plot armor and just overpowered imo. But ofc she's a badass Jedi so she is more popular than Padme. I cant even.. I just hate the way TCW and Filoni wrote her. I don't see Anakin as being a big brother to anyone. Or being a teacher. The only other natural interaction he has except Padme and his mother is with Obi-Wan and even that took time. They didn't get along well in the first two movies and although he does joke around with Obi Wan in ROTS, he has his own slightly awkward and shy way of doing it. And I imagine he's semi reserved and shy with other Jedi. Or when we see him interacting with Padme's family. But to make him a responsible master is strange because even in ROTS he was too young and not mature enough to be level-headed and responsible all the time. And I like that because he has flaws but he was trying to learn and wanted to be a good father. And I do believe he really gained that maturity (which was stunted due to obvious trauma) and fatherly affection for Luke after ESB and not before. I think he would have had trouble connecting with Leia as well post ROTJ because he wasn't prepared to and had no experience being a role model for anyone. Meanwhile, 22 year old TCW Anakin with Ahsoka acts like a 30 year old man with anger issues...

It's also frustrating to see Padme being reduced to a love interest when she was a main character and part of the trio. She, like Han, didn't need to be a Jedi to be one of the main characters and it's boring to see a trio of Jedi only. I don't really blame Ahsoka fans - only Filoni for constantly dragging her into everything and I'm glad it's backfiring because I see fans who previously liked her are beginning to get tired of her being shoehorned into every single SW thing and acting all Mary Sue. Also, see the amount of concept arts and storylines they wrote for Padme during the prequels. She had more arts than Anakin and Obi-Wan. GL clearly wanted her to be important even more than Leia in ANH because we see much more of Padme and the first movie directly involves her and her planet with Anakin's discovery being a sideplot. It's disrespectful to reduce her to a love interest.

This video puts it really well (although he isn't a fan of the prequels as far as I can remember): "Dave Filoni's biggest problem as a writer apart from his complete inability to write interesting dialogue or craft stories that are more than just fetch quest for Magical McGuffin or create people who actually make smart decisions or his borderline fetish for the boring mediocre character he's trying so hard to insert as the driving force behind the entire Star Wars narrative is his constant [ __ ] around and reconning of past events and World building to suit the needs of his own narrow story. It's like he's staying in a hotel room for a couple of days and decided that he now has the right to completely remodel the place because he feels like it. This isn't your job Dave you're supposed to work within the rules of the world that George created not write a whole bunch of new ones just to suit yourself that now affect everyone else."

Lol applause for saying that out loud

[tremendouskoalachild]

Ngl it wasn't until your post that I realized that...yeah they really haven't done any tie ins to the show have they? No additional stories, nothing. Which perplexes me on so many levels and also additionally annoys me because my biggest riff about those shows is that now that's ALL you can find for disney era sw in stores. like with all due respect I want stuff for the characters I grew up with (the st gang), y'know? So now I'm like. [stares] if you're not. making tie ins for that show and just merchandise only then why have you stopped making tie ins for the sequels (which critically panned or not wERE successful and each made more money than the other films did at the box office. and. clearly they don't have that issue with the prequels.) anyway not to step into your inbox all soapboxy but you just blew my mind over my morning tea 😅

oh yeah! definitely seconding more sequel-related media, i neeeed it

but hey maybe i'm being uncharitable and it's a wider higher-up decision. maybe they saw fans mad at retcons, again, and just decided to hold off. maybe those things weren't selling that well. maybe they have no idea what they're doing with the rey movie in the case of sequels stuff and just wanna wait. maybe all their publishing people are busy with the high republic?

[bedlamsbard]

I totally understand your rage quitting now, although it's exactly the opposite for me! I was *very* into the Asgardian storyline in MCU and I hated Ragnarok with a passion - and the fandom sure made certain I knew everybody who didn't like the movie was an Idiot. Then IW and EG happened and killed all my joy for the MCU. I kinda sorta look at it without flinching nowadays, but it took somewhere around 5 years...

I think I know more people who went MCU --> Star Wars than the other way around! Weird couple of years for both fandoms. I'm a little bit of a weird outlier because I got back into Marvel well after Endgame, but a lot of what people criticize about the MCU is what I find interesting (the puzzle piece aspect). I am well aware that if I'd been consistently in Marvel since 2014 (which is when I drifted off) I'd probably have had the same rage reaction as like...everyone else I know.

I guess it's been a minute and my SW history isn't common knowledge to people who weren't around here between 2013-2021, so the lingering fury is probably confusing to people who only know me from the MCU. I was big into Star Wars from 2013-2021, from 2013-2015 on the PT/TCW side, then from 2014-2021 on the Rebels side (there's crossover), though I was also familiar with...everything. I have forgotten more about Star Wars than your average SW fan has ever known. (I was also in and out from 2007-2013, which is when some of my earlier fic like Oxygen and Rust dates from, but this is a period of time when my big fandom was actually Narnia) I'm quote-unquote "known" for Wake the Storm and Queen's Gambit in the PT/TCW, which have very consistently garnered negative responses since Wake started in 2013, and On the Edge of the Devil's Backbone in Rebels; I also used to do liveblogs of TCW and Rebels and the comics, for a while, so some of those posts are still floating around. I had a very, very bad breakup with a close fandom friend in 2016. I bounced off the ST, had an extremely negative reaction to Rebels S4 (to this day I have refused to do a full reaction post because I hated it so much I can't think about it coherently, and there were years where I couldn't think about it without spiraling), was okay with Resistance, R1, and Solo, hated Mando, hated TCW S7, hated the comics, hated the High Republic, and was still grimly hanging onto the fandom in utter misery in 2021 when the combination of hating TBB's sheer mediocrity (and the way they retconned Rebels) and the first episode of Loki hitting all of my favorite tropes like a fucking train finally knocked me out of Star Wars, to the extreme relief of everyone who knew me.

to this day I have fannish friends (who I met through Star Wars!) ready to stage an intervention if I ever seem even vaguely interested in getting back into Star Wars. I am the only person I know who looked at the Marvel fandom post-Endgame (and the Loki subfandom at any point in time, but especially while the show was airing) and went "this seems like a nice soothing place to immigrate to!" and honestly it is, people aren't as crazy anymore as they were around CW and Endgame. (Except in the Loki subfandom, which has made even me go "hmm. that's a bit much," but then I remember the egg genocide and you guys are fine, actually.)

very amusingly I actually speed-ran the Rebels experience with the Loki show -- really liked the first half, really disliked the second half -- but by that point I'd already gotten back into the rest of the MCU. I hadn't had a dramatic MCU breakup at all; I'd kept up with the films from 2008-2014 (CATWS was the last one I saw in order), but I just hadn't gotten around to seeing more than three odd ones out between 2014 and 2021 (Ragnarok, Captain Marvel, Ant-Man and the Wasp, and then I saw WandaVision early in 2021). I fandom osmosed some weird stuff that turned out not to be true.

anyway for those that don't know, that's the short version of my sordid Star Wars history! also sorry, you didn't actually, uh, ask for this.

[gch1995]

Look at this this way: did anything in the OT that Anakin became a Jedi when he was nine and a slave? No, he was supposed to be a young man that already served as a pilot in the army. How does Leia remember Padmé when she was 5 minutes old when she saw her for the first and last time? The Force knows how. Where the fuck is Qui-Gon's ghost in the OT? He literally doesn't exist. Getting worked up about retcons in SW is useless. This show is doing the very same that every SW movie has ever done.

There were a few head scratchers and retcons here and there from the OT and PT verse, but the two universes are generally pretty consistent.

For instance, while clearly not in the right morally, it is very clear that Darth Vader was an abuse and oppression victim of Palpatine with learned helplessness and Stockholm Syndrome in regards to that toxic authority in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. He tells Luke “I must obey my master,” “It’s too late for me, son,” and “You don’t know the power of the dark side.” He feels so chained to Palpatine that he feels obligated to hand over said son for him to kill when he refuses to join the dark side or just leave before it’s too late, and almost lets him do it, even though he clearly didn’t want to.

He allows for Palpatine to encourage Luke to fight him to goad him to join the dark side in Return of the Jedi, and even feels obligated to continue obeying him after he mocks him as Luke starts beating him up. Vader asks Luke to join him to help him kill the Emperor, so they can rule the galaxy together, but if Vader is really supposed to be this entirely fearsome and unstoppable killing machine that he first appeared to be in A New Hope, then it should be no problem for him to kill Palpatine by himself, except he can’t because he’s been physically weakened and he’s been groomed to serve Palpatine as a murder slave for so many years. His background as a slave in the PT movies, explains why Anakin would feel obligated to obey corrupt authority figures in the OT movies, even when he knows they are wrong, and even when they treat him and/or his loved ones like shit. It doesn’t excuse him for it.

It doesn’t surprise me that the man who became Darth Vader was an abuse and oppression victim of corrupt authority figures his whole life. He clearly wanted to reach out to Luke for healthier emotional support and help for freedom the from the only other family he realized he had left outside of Palpatine, in spite of being terrible at showing it until the end. Anakin clearly wanted to escape Palpatine since he knew he sucked, but he still felt obligated to hand over his son to him and almost allowed him to be killed by that abusive and oppressive master, even though he didn’t want to.

I also don’t remember Obi-Wan or Yoda specifically saying that Anakin joined the Jedi as a young man. His origins were largely a mystery in the OT movies. Yoda dropped a line to Luke about him being “too old” to train as a Jedi at 18-19 years old, even though that’s generally the minimum legal age for people to enlist or be recruited as soldiers. They spent almost all three of the OT movies deliberately deceiving and manipulating Luke to groom him to be a weapon to kill off the monster of a man they claimed to have inadvertently helped Vader become, even before it was revealed that he was his father Anakin Skywalker.

Therefore, doesn’t surprise me that Obi-Wan and Yoda were unreliable narrators when they said that Anakin was simply “ seduced by the dark side,” and the old Republic and Jedi Order were these “keepers of peace and democracy” who they believe everyone else loved.

Obi-Wan and Yoda were willing to leave Luke in danger alone in the galaxy to punish him for taking a break to go save his friends in Empire Strikes Back, even though he said he’d be right back because “attachments are dangerous.”

The PT movies may have been a little implausible in some places, such as the place where Leia said she remembered her mother a little bit. She wouldn’t be able to as an infant. However, for the most part, Anakin’s, Obi-Wan’s, Yoda’s, and the old Jedi Order’s characterizations and arcs in the prequels pretty consistently and plausibly expand upon what we learned about them in the OT movies.

With Disney, it’s all just about rehashing and retconning stories that Lucas already told in the OT and PT movies for money. Lucas wasn’t always a great writer, but he was brilliantly creative.

Nonny, I really think you’re just bitter that Obi-Wan, Yoda, and the overall Jedi Order weren’t the blameless victims and perfect heroes all along, and the man who became Vader turned out to be just as much of a victim as he became a villain.

@tragicfantasy-girl

@mynameisanakin

@the-chosen-anakin

@kit-kat-of-midgard

@leias-left-hair-bun-again

@padawanlost

@ohgodmyeyes

[birb-tangleblog]

Rise of Flynn Rider - THOUGHTS

THE PROMISED LONGER POST ON THE RISE OF FLYNN RIDER- spoiler warning!

Ok so first off, a very brief summary: the book centers on Eugene and Arnie (Lance), childhood best friends. The orphanage they've grown up in is financially struggling, under threat by a crooked tax collector, and they're both aging out of the system; the only clue Eugene has to his parents is a letter from the woman who left him there, which is signed with a ~mysterious symbol~. When a traveling circus run by the Baron (yes, that Baron) passes through town and Eugene learns of a possible lead on his past, the two boys reinvent themselves, join up, and eventually end up entangled in a scheme to steal from the King and Queen of Corona. 

I won't lie, I enjoyed this one a lot- it was a fun read, very cozy to curl up with, and even with some contradictions, it felt like a novel that was derivative of the series and set in that world. There are a lot of cameos and references, enough that I think most TTS fans will find something they like to nibble on.

Like I said in my earlier post abt the prologue and first few chapters, I'm so happy that Lance got a role alongside Eugene- he's definitely a secondary character to Eugene’s main, and he does get sidelined somewhat, but it's charming to see his friendship with Eugene and his growing passion for cooking. 

'I didn't expect anything, so I'm more delighted and pleasantly surprised than genuinely unhappy with the execution' is a running theme with this book for me and basically the tl;dr of this write-up.

There are soo many cameos and little treats- I get the impression Calonita didn't have the most complete knowledge of the series, but her chats with Chris and interest in the series’ writing definitely show. King Edmund, the Stabbingtons, all of the pub thugs, Weasel, Stalyan, and the Baron all make appearances, and we get cameos from Cap, Maximus, Pascal's mother, and even Cass gets a name drop. Several series-exclusive locations are also mentioned by name- Vardaros, the Spire, and the Forest of No Return.

I'm not immune to the fannish hit of 'hey! I understand that reference!' and I really enjoyed hunting for easter eggs, so even if the presence of the pub thugs in the Baron's crew, or the boys stumbling on Rapunzel's tower in one scene and making nothing of it (yea that happened) is a lil questionable, it made me smile and I can't be mad.

I would just describe this book as 'comfy'.

(That said, I'm a little unsure who all those references are for- I feel like if you hadn't seen the series, you'd lack context and some details would be meaningless, but if you had, I think you might long for more depth and exploration...)

Structure & Progression

Here's the part where I start criticizing the book aimed at middle and elementary schoolers lmao

It's a v short book, but the plot progression still feels a little scattered- it didn’t feel quite like a heist OR a mystery. The subplot that takes up a lot of focus is actually interpersonal conflict between Lance and Eugene- and they reconcile, but not after spending much of the book in a standoff due to a misunderstanding/'liar revealed' trope.

One of Eugene's motivations for joining the circus is spotting a man with a mark on his arm that matches the one from his letter working there, and believing he'll be able to learn more abt his parents from him. He doesn't disclose this to Lance right away, and when it comes out later on, he's upset that Eugene didn't tell him- he feels tricked, and like Eugene's prioritizing his biological family over their bond. I had a hard time with this, b/c I honestly think Eugene could've literally said to Lance, 'hey, joining this circus is a great opportunity to travel, make money, send some back to the orphanage, AND I found something about my parents, will you come with me?' and Lance still would've jumped on it. Later on, there's also another similar miscommunication that deepens the rift. 

It feels like manufactured drama, and I would've loved a book of the two of them just being buds, bouncing off each other, and trying to unravel the mysteries of the DK symbol and the Baron's ulterior motives together. Lance's fears of being left behind by his friend absolutely could've surfaced without the misunderstandings, especially the closer they got to the truth. (And I don't think that'd have been dissimilar to the unused 'Trial' episode concept and flashback.)

The pacing itself... meanders. After the boys complete an initiation mission to get a hold of a special key for the Baron, time passes (two weeks in-story) and there's some slice of life as they learn the ropes, get inducted into a lifestyle of thieving (it’s revealed the circus is a front for a crime ring), and get to know the Baron's crew.

I liked these parts and would've kept them in a longer book! But maybe there could've been some fine-tuning here so big events (Eugene stealing for the first time, the heist, the meeting with the mysterious Man with the Mark) weren’t so one-and-done. There are several points where nothing's really happening because the characters can't quite connect with each other, or they're waiting around for an opportunity passively, and that makes for a frustrating exp for me as a reader.

There were also lot of elements I thought were getting set up to come into play later, but not a lot of follow through? The folk hero Lance Archer is mentioned several times and has wanted posters, but we never meet him in the flesh. The Man with the Mark is revealed to be a former member of the Brotherhood(!) named Vedis(!!), but he isn't seen again after Eugene speaks with him... once. (More on this later this post is getting so long omg) 

The Baron’s plan is revealed to be stealing a reward offered for the lost princess when it’s on display to the public during a festival. Eugene and Lance balk b/c stealing doesn’t sit well with them, especially when it’s from what are ultimately a family trying to find their lost child- they decide to do the right thing by foiling the scheme/stealing it back and returning it to the royals. It goes a bit pear-shaped and they’re caught, but are forgiven and face no consequences after explaining, other than being ousted from the circus/crime ring and making enemies of the Baron. Eugene hasn’t given up on finding the DK, but he realizes he already has a family in Lance, and that’s the most important thing; the two resolve to travel the world and have adventures together.

I want to make another post on it, but at the least it feels like a foregone conclusion given we know ‘Flynn Rider’ goes on to become a renown thief who steals the crown of the lost princess- that’s literally the plot of the movie, and being a dashing rogue is Flynn’s defining trait- so even aside from questionable ideas about wealth, class, and morality, the novel’s ending doesn’t fit what’s firmly established about his character, and I think big fans of Eugene might have an even harder time with that then me. 

(I’m very suspicious that there might’ve been some executive meddling in an attempt to soften young Eugene’s character, and send a more palatable/upstanding message to children- it feels like Disney editing the old SW films to show Han didn’t shoot first.)

It’s def one of those novels where you can take some elements you like and leave others, but overall I’d still rly rec it for series fans! I’ve been buzzing and what-iffing about it for a few days, and I got some tasty tidbits on the characters and nods to the series, which is exactly what I wanted out of it.

And maybe it’s a funky take, but honestly I want to think of this book as the beginning of an alternate timeline where Lance and Eugene got out of crime earlier, Eugene got a clue abt his heritage by chance, and it changed his course. I think embracing the retcons and contradictions to canon makes for an interesting angle, and you’ll enjoy it more if you don’t take it too seriously. 

[helbertinelli]

As someone who likes a lot of the newer Star Wars content that’s been put out in the past decade, I’m wondering why a lot of people are constantly claiming that “Disney” Anakin and Padme are OOC.

I get it, Anidala is my comfort ship too and I only ever want the best for them, but the circumstances of their marriage were super unhealthy for both of them and it seems pretty obvious that it would manifest in other ways instead of just at the end of ROTS. They’re both incredibly strong willed people who believe they know what’s right, and they never really got to be together or effectively communicate with each other, and that’s super tragic.

Anakin and Padme are flawed characters, that’s something that people stress a lot, I’m just wondering why when any creator other than George tries to explore those flaws through their relationship, they’re seen as portraying them OOC. Obviously George has a lot of insight into their characters, relationship, and flaws and has revealed a lot about them through interviews, extras, etc., but I don’t think he was necessarily as good at showing it through the films (Padme especially gets a lot of her important scenes/plotlines cut and her characterization kind of suffers from that).

Idk, it might just be that I have a different perspective (I got into the fandom at around 2013 when a lot of new content was coming out) but I don’t struggle with reconciling a lot of the newer works as expanded characterizations, I don’t think that they necessarily contradict what’s present in the films most of the time.

Ultimately, it probably just comes down to how you interpret Star Wars as George Lucas’ creation, the man was very adamant that it was *his* story before he sold it, but I think multiple authorial viewpoints can exist in this massive franchise.

(Obviously people can have their own interpretations and there is no definitive “right” way to look at things, just wondering what the thought process is here)

Thanks for your ask. I’m going to break it down into the points you’ve sent just so I can keep my answer organized and not all over the place. 1. As someone who likes a lot of the newer Star Wars content that’s been put out in the past decade, I’m wondering why a lot of people are constantly claiming that “Disney” Anakin and Padme are OOC.

Because they made Anakin think that Padme would cheat on him and then they made Padme afraid of Anakin and made her tell him they need a break. And because they retconned their story in order to stuff in Clovis in Padme’s story. And it doesn’t fit in the timeline of events that have already been established for Padme and it doesn’t fit with her character at all. In AOTC, in the novel, it says specifically that Padme never made time for herself and she only cared about being a Senator. They mention it in the movie too, but in the book, they go more in depth. There’s no way she made time to have a relationship with Clovis.

Again, for Padme, they (TCW) also make her more focused on her job and they treat Anakin like he’s just some side character in her life. This is completely out of character for Padme. We saw in AOTC that Padme developed from this person who only put her job first, to a person who finally allowed herself to have feelings for someone else and who would put that person before anything else.

If this was not true, then Padme would not have ignored Mace Windu’s request to stay on Tatooine until the Jedi go and rescue Obi-Wan, she would not have married Anakin at the end of AOTC, she would not have gotten pregnant with him, she would not have lived with him on Coruscant, she would not have made plans (and been happy about those plans) to leave her job and move to Naboo and raise their child(ren) there, she would not have went after Anakin after he turned to the dark side and asked him to go away with her.

TCW ignored that Padme got significant development in AOTC and that because of that development her character from TPM and the beginning of AOTC was now changed. They ignored that and decided to portray Padme as we see her at the beginning of AOTC. Spending time with Anakin is a chore, it doesn’t matter what Anakin says even if his concerns are right, only the Republic and her job matter.

There are moments in TCW where their relationship is good, but there are really bad and out of character moments that overshadow the good stuff.

2. I get it, Anidala is my comfort ship too and I only ever want the best for them, but the circumstances of their marriage were super unhealthy for both of them and it seems pretty obvious that it would manifest in other ways instead of just at the end of ROTS. They’re both incredibly strong willed people who believe they know what’s right, and they never really got to be together or effectively communicate with each other, and that’s super tragic.

I don’t think their marriage or the circumstances of their marriage were unhealthy. Their relationship is one of the best ones in Star Wars since it’s very mutual and it’s based on respect and understanding. Padme and Anakin know each other very well and they understand the other like no one else. They’re also nothing but respectful and loving of one another. I don’t see how that is unhealthy.

Them having to hide their marriage and not being able to spend time with one another too because of the war does have an effect on Anakin and Padme, but not on their relationship. Neither of them would think that it would be better not to have a relationship than to have a secret one. I know that Padme said this in AOTC, but she changes her mind about that fairly quick. Again, going to the AOTC book, we actually see Padme doubting her words in that very scene and she’s thinking they’d end up be destroyed worse by not allowing themselves to be together.

3. Anakin and Padme are flawed characters, that’s something that people stress a lot, I’m just wondering why when any creator other than George tries to explore those flaws through their relationship, they’re seen as portraying them OOC. Obviously George has a lot of insight into their characters, relationship, and flaws and has revealed a lot about them through interviews, extras, etc., but I don’t think he was necessarily as good at showing it through the films (Padme especially gets a lot of her important scenes/plotlines cut and her characterization kind of suffers from that). 

George Lucas did not have a lot of time to show Anakin and Padme’s relationship in the movies. And yes, Padme did get a lot of her scenes cut out. I don’t think her characterization suffered from it, because we, as the audience, could still understand what Padme stood for and what was important for her. Sure more detail would have been nice, but I don’t think that her characterization was lacking in any way. Like in AOTC it would have been nice to see more scenes of her that showed her being in love with Anakin, but there were still other scenes left in the movie that showed this very well.

I don’t think that only George Lucas is able to explore the flaws in their relationship and their characters. I think I’ve seen some fragments from some SW books on here that have Anidala scenes and Anakin and Padme do have some conflict, but they resolve it. Like there was one where Padme had to go on a mission that Anakin didn’t approve with and they basically talked it out and reached kind of a compromise I think. And there was another book where Anakin and Padme wanted to make out and have sex, but Bail and Obi-Wan were close by and despite how much they both wanted each other and how much it hurt them not to be together, they agreed it was better this way.

The problem is when people create conflict in their relationship that would not make sense in the first place, and then try to say that because of that conflict they just created, Anakin and Padme’s relationship is bad. Like as I discussed above with TCW and making Anakin think that his wife would cheat on him. That would never happen. I think it was in the ROTS book where Palpatine is trying to convince Anakin that Padme is having an affair with Obi-Wan and Anakin is like “Nope, I know Padme.“

It makes no sense to change Anakin’s character to now believe that his wife is cheating just to create drama in their relationship. The TCW writers tried to push a weird love triangle on a happily married couple and then they tried to make Anakin seem like the bad guy for not liking Clovis forcing himself on Padme and for trying to get her killed before that. They created a conflict that would never happen in their relationship normally and then they were like “Oh look Anidala is toxic!“

4. Idk, it might just be that I have a different perspective (I got into the fandom at around 2013 when a lot of new content was coming out) but I don’t struggle with reconciling a lot of the newer works as expanded characterizations, I don’t think that they necessarily contradict what’s present in the films most of the time.

Ultimately, it probably just comes down to how you interpret Star Wars as George Lucas’ creation, the man was very adamant that it was *his* story before he sold it, but I think multiple authorial viewpoints can exist in this massive franchise.

(Obviously people can have their own interpretations and there is no definitive “right” way to look at things, just wondering what the thought process is here)

I can’t speak for your perspective, but it’s fairly easy to see that TCW is not really expanded characterization in the case of Padme and Anidala, specifically, but it actually contradicts things that were already established in canon. In order to achieve TCW!Padme they had to go back on Padme’s characterization in AOTC and completely ignore her character from ROTS. I know TCW takes place between AOTC and ROTS, but in the timeline, Padme would already have been married to Anakin for some time, so a lot of her characterization from ROTS would have to be incorporated in TCW!Padme. But they didn’t. TCW!Padme is basically TPM + beginning of AOTC Padme but done badly. TCW!Anidala is very contradictory with Anidala in the movies. Not only do Anakin and Padme mistrust one another and doubt each other, but the timeline has been modified to squeeze in Clovis.

We see a bit of conflict in the movies, when Padme tells Anakin that maybe the Republic is wrong and yes, it never goes anywhere, but at least it is realistic conflict. It’s not “Hey here’s my secret boyfriend that I never told you about even though we are married and I’m gonna spend time with him even though he got me poisoned one time and then my handmaiden got killed by his stupid plot and I almost endangered the Republic by helping him out and if you don’t like that he’s forcing himself onto me, then I guess our marriage is broken and we can’t be together for a while.“ That is completely against their relationship based on both of them being loving and honest and respectful to each other.

The movies made it clear that despite everything that was going on in both of their lives, Anakin and Padme found comfort in one another. They were open and honest and loving to each other (up until the point of Anakin turning to the dark side). TCW ignored all of that and pushed their own interpretation onto Anidala. Anidala was meant to be a fairytale romance that was basically the two of them against all odds and they brought the best in each other. Their characters were extremely connected that it was weird to have Padme without Anakin or Anakin without Padme. They were both extremely committed to each other, they were both ride or die for one another. And we saw it in the movies very well. Anakin destroys everything to be with Padme and Padme is willing to leave everything behind to be with him despite all the horrible things he has done. She dies still believing there’s good in him. And then TCW comes in and tries to make Anidala in some cheap TV sitcom romance where all they do is bicker and get jealous and Padme acts like it’s such a chore being Anakin’s wife. They westernize their relationship in the worst kind of way.

There’s no way to not find it contradictory that Padme in the movies who, dies from a broken heart and her last words are that there’s still good in Anakin, despite everything he did to the galaxy and to her personally, would be the same as TCW!Padme, who gets angry and scared of her husband beating up the guy who tried to sexually assualt her and then tells her husband that their marriage isn’t a marriage and that they need to take a break. It makes no sense at all.

I’m all for conflict between Padme and Anakin, but it needs to be realistic conflict. It can’t be what TCW tried to push on them or the silly theories of Padme hating Anakin for turning to the darkside (when she tried to get him to run away with her and even before in AOTC she consoled him after attacking the Tusken) or her trying to kill him at any point (when she dies believing there’s still good in him). That’s like saying that Luke would try to kill his nephew and then run away and hide on a remote planet, abandoning his family. It contradicts what has already been established about him.

Also, when you write something like TCW where you’re basically adding stuff to the middle of something, you’re basically required to know the source material of what came before and what came after the thing you are writing and you need to make your story fit and respect what came before and what came after. Otherwise, you just end up writing TCW!Padme and TCW!Anidala where it contradicts already established canon. If I never watched SW and I would just now start watching it for the first time and I’d watch: TPM, AOTC, TCW, ROTS, SWR, RO, ANH, ESB, and ROTJ, it would make no sense to me how Padme who told Anakin that their marriage isn’t a marriage, would distrust Obi-Wan when he told her of the attack and it would make no sense that she would go to talk to Anakin when TCW showed us how easy it is for her to just dump him.

This goes for TCW and for fan theories where Padme hates Anakin or she tries to kill him, I can’t reconcile those with the actual canon because then that character isn’t Padme anymore, and the ship isn’t Anidala anymore. It goes against the core of the ship, of what makes Anidala Anidala. They’re together because they’re so in love with each other and both of them will die being in love with each other. If you have them break up or end up hating each other, then you’re no longer writing about Anidala, that’s a different pairing entirely. With AUs and headcanons and fics and even other canon material, you have to be careful how you alter something so that the essence of a character or a pairing does not get lost. If it does, then you end up writing about different characters and different relationships. I’ll again use Luke as an example. Luke was willing to die for his family, to get his father, whom he didn’t even know beforehand, back, he even left his training because his family needed him. If you write Luke as being the person who wanted to kill a member of his family at the first sign of darkness, who then abandoned his family, and ignored all calls for him to come back, then you just lost the essence of Luke who was all about unconditional love and family, and you now have a different character altogether.

[padawanlost]

Hey love your content.

Just wanted to ask you something. There's a claim I've seen coming up in fandom a few times now that Obi Wan knew Luke would bring his father back to the light and redeem him. That he even planned as much and this is supposedly evidenced by his not killing Vader in A New Hope and telling Luke to face Vader but not kill him in Return of the Jedi

I'm not convinced, but can you offer a more conclusive answer rebuttal or whatever.

I’ll be honest with you, this is the first time I’ve ever heard such theory so I’ve no idea where it came from or what arguments are being used to support it. All I can show you is the OT itself. The movies make pretty clear that Obi-wan and Yoda were preparing Luke to kill Darth Vader, and that Anakin’s return was something considered impossible until that point.

Because I don’t keep track of DisneySW, all the evidence I provided is strictly based on the original canon, as developed by George Lucas. So if Disney retconned something, I won’t be able to help :)

That being said, that theory doesn’t make much sense to me, sorry. For Anakin’s redemption to be part of some Obi-wan’s master plan, the character would have to have an impossible foresight into everyone’s involved past and future. For Obi-wan to be able to manipulate people and events to push Anakin’s into going back to light, he would first have to understand why Anakin fell in the first place. And if there’s one thing Episode III makes painfully obvious is that Obi-wan was nowhere near Coruscant when Anakin made his fatal decision, nor was he aware of the circumstances that led him to it. Everyone who knew what truly went down were either dead or his new worst enemies.

With that in mind, let’s take a look at Obi-wan’s (alleged) ‘master plan’:

In Episode IV, we have Obi-wan openly lying to Luke about where he came from and dueling Vader (literary to the death). Not exactly the actions of a man who wants the son to save the father’s life.

In Episode V Obi-wan tells Luke not even Yoda had the power or skill required to see into the future of Han and Leia. Considering they were captured by one of the most even being in the galaxy, it wouldn’t be that hard to guess their future did not look pretty.

Luke: But, Han and Leia will die if I don't. Obi-Wan: You don't know that. Even Yoda cannot see their fate.

The idea here is tied to an important concept in SW: free will. The characters are fundamentally free to make their own choices. Anakin, despite being manipulated by Palpatine, ultimately made his own bed. This is true to all of them. Palpatine’s ‘master plan’ wasn’t about controlling people into doing what he wanted, it was using their own nature against them. He nudged them into the making poor decisions, he never stripped them of their agency.

Obi-Wan: It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. That is why your friends are made to suffer. Luke: That's why I have to go. Obi-Wan: Luke. I don't want to lose you to the Emperor, the way I lost Vader. Luke: You won't. Yoda: Stopped, they must be. On this, all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil. Obi-Wan: Patience. [...] Obi-Wan: If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot interfere.

Unless you see Obi-wan as a manipulative, cruel person who wants an untrained Luke to face two of the most powerful beings in the galaxy alone for his own personal, secret plan, I’d say the movie is pretty clear in showing us that neither Yoda nor Obi-wan want Luke to face Vader at that point. If the plan was to get Luke to going, wouldn’t have been easier to just let him go instead of creating an huge argument about it? Hell, they are willing throw Han and Leia under the bus to keep Luke from leaving. If that wasn’t shady enough now we are supposed to believe that was part of an even worst scheme involving pretty much everyone?

Yoda: Told you I did. Reckless, is he. Now... matters are worse. Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope. Yoda: No. There is another.

Yeah, it doesn’t sound like using Luke to redeem Vader was their ultimate goal here.

There are some pretty big holes in that theory in terms of character development and narrative structure. I know everyone loves the idea of Vader and Obi-wan having some badass duel in ANH but the truth is Vader had spent the last 20 years training and killing pretty much all kinds of enemies imagine while Obi-wan mediated on Tatooine as grew shockingly old for his age.

As proven on Mustafar, raw power only takes you so far. Anakin has always been much, much more powerful than Obi-wan but in the end Obi-wan won because of skill, training and discipline. Unfortunately, for Obi-wan, he didn’t get much training in his isolation. He couldn’t have because he was in hiding! If that wasn’t enough, the EU confirms that Obi-wan sacrificed himself to allow Luke to scape. There was no secret plan.

Obi-Wan risked a glance through the hangar’s open doorway and saw four stormtroopers guarding the Falcon. He also sensed that Luke was nearby. Hoping to cause a distraction that would allow Luke to board the Falcon, he attacked Vader more vigorously. The noise of clashing lightsabers echoed into the hangar, attracting the stormtroopers’ attention. With his peripheral vision, Obi-Wan saw the stormtroopers leave their stations beside the Falcon and run toward him and Vader. He continued his attack on Vader, and several exchanges later, he sensed Luke’s movement and knew his plan had worked. He risked another glance into the hangar to see several figures racing for the Falcon’s landing ramp: the droids, Chewbacca, Han Solo, Luke, and — Leia! Obi-Wan hadn’t known that Princess Leia was on the battle station, but he recognized the girl in the white dress from the hologram that R2-D2 had displayed. Obi-Wan did not believe in luck or coincidences, and seeing Luke unwittingly reunited with his twin sister, he knew that it was not a tractor beam that had brought him to the battle station, but the will of the Force. His fleeting glance also registered that Luke had paused behind his friends. Luke stood a short distance from the landing ramp and was staring straight at him, gaping. Obi-Wan realized there was only one way Luke, Leia, and the others would escape the battle station alive. He smiled as he looked away from Luke, then closed his eyes and raised his lightsaber up before him. Darth Vader did not hesitate to strike. [Ryder Windham. The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Imo, this theory ruins the character of Obi-wan by making him pretty much omniscient and way more powerful and manipulative than he was in canon. Obi-wan wasn’t perfect, but he wasn’t palpatine level of manipulative either. He had no ‘grand plan’ beyond using Luke to kill vader and save the galaxy in a desperate attempt to save the galaxy.

On top of that, let’s remember that Obi-wan had no hope left for Anakin. He did not believe Anakin could be redeemed after Mustafar. If you do not believe md, believe George Lucas.

After the first complete take, Lucas and McGregor discuss when he should say each line: “As you watch Anakin slide down, how about if you take one step forward,” Lucas Suggests. “For a moment, you think about it. Your first impulse is to save him – but then you realize you can’t”. As the takes multiply and the actors find their rhythm and emotions, the scene becomes more and more powerful. Christensen yells “I hate you!”. McGregor says, “I love you. But I will not help you”. Lucas explains that what Obi-wan’s really saying to Anakin is: “Your were our only hope and you blew it. Now we don’t have any hope”. Take. After Anakin implores Obi-wan to save him, George asks Ewan to say “I will not…” softer, almost to himself. Take. “After he burst into flames,” Lucas directs, “it’s as if you’re talking to a dead person. To a piece of toast”. He suggests, to drive home this point, that McGregor change the words in the script to the past tense, “I loved you.” The actor acquiesces, but points out that his subsequent line would have to change to “But I could not help you.” Lucas agrees, and Tenggren alters the script accordingly.[ The Making of ROTS]

Another thing that George is very clear about is that Luke is the one who redeems Anakin.

It really has to do with learning. Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can’t be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he’s caused. He doesn’t right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person [Luke], regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I’ve grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I’m doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I’ve done. I broke his mother’s heart, but he still cares about me, and I can’t let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: the prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son. [ GEORGE LUCAS - THE MAKING OF REVENGE OF THE SITH; PAGE 221.]

This brings us back about what I said earlier about narrative structure. This is Luke’s story. Obi-wan is the mentor, that’s it. It’s Luke’s actions, Luke’s choices. To suddenly reveal that everything happened was the result of Obi-wan’s plan would be narrative equivalent of a slap in the face. We watched Luke’s hero journey only to find out his journey was a lie and his choices weren’t really his own. How disappointing!

Not only that but redemption comes from within. Even if Obi-wan had planned for everything, Anakin would need to WANT to change. and knowing it was Luke’s selfless actions that drove Anakin into killing Palpatine, suddenly finding out an ulterior motive behind Luke’s actions (beyond the character’s own goodness) would diminish the weight of Anakin own choices.

But, again, Obi-wan couldn’t have planned for Anakin to return to the light because he didn’t even believe one could be redeemed after such evils.

Obi-Wan’s spirit was invisible but present when Luke arrived in the Endor system, where the Empire had constructed a new Death Star battle station. When Luke surrendered to Darth Vader on the Endor forest moon, he listened as Luke maintained his belief that a remnant of Anakin Skywalker remained within Vader and had not been entirely consumed by evil. Luke urged his father to let go of his hate. Vader said, “It is too late for me, son.” Then he signaled to two stormtroopers to escort Luke to a waiting shuttle that would carry them to the Death Star. As the stormtroopers moved up behind Luke, Vader added, “The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your Master now.” Luke stared at Vader for a moment before he said, “Then my father is truly dead.” Obi-Wan’s spirit wished he had convinced Luke of this fact earlier. [Ryder Windham. The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Even as they fought, Obi-wan didn’t believe Luke could save Anakin. It was only after witnessing Palpatine’s demise he started to realize what it meant.

Obi-Wan knew that Vader would never help, and he felt almost overwhelmed by a sense of dread. Luke would soon be dead, and Vader would remain the Emperor’s puppet. In fact, Obi-Wan was so convinced of Vader’s nature that he was stunned by what happened next. Vader grabbed the Emperor and lifted him off his feet.  [Ryder Windham. The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Had Obi-Wan’s spirit not witnessed Vader’s action, he never would have believed it. Vader, the same monster that Obi-Wan had left to die on Mustafar, had sacrificed himself to save his son. And suddenly Obi-Wan realized where he had failed. For unlike Luke, Obi-Wan had not only believed that Anakin was completely consumed by the dark side, but had actually refused to believe that any goodness could have remained within Vader.  [Ryder Windham. The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Btw, in ROTJ, Obi-wan doesn’t try to talk Luke out of killing Vader. In fact, the oppositve of that happens:

Luke Skywalker: There is still good in him. Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. Twisted and evil. Luke Skywalker: I can't do it, Ben. Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again. Luke Skywalker: I can't kill my own father. Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

Star Wars, at its core, has a very simple message about love and the power it has over people. in the end, the good guys won because they were good, not because they were being guided there by some powerful guy. In the end, it was love that won the war and saved the day. Everyone’s love. Luke’s love for Anakin, Anakin’s love for Luke, Han’s love for Leia, etc. Selfless love makes better people and good people do good things. It’s not about manipulating actions, people or even knowing everything. In fact, I’d say it’s the appositive.

Luke didn’t know he could save Vader, but he tried anyway and that’s what makes him a hero. It’s the not knowing but having faith in someone out of love, faith they can be better than they are. That’s what saves the world. It’s not knowing everything and still acting out love and compassion.

Anyway, I honestly don’t know where this idea of Obi-wan knowing Anakin’s future and planning for it came from. But I do know it’s not supported by the movies, the EU or George himself.  

[lizzibennet]

Honestly, I *DO* like episodes 7, 8, and 9. BUT I would have LOVED if they did everything they did AS PLANNED, and then added the alternatives film (the versions we got) as a bonus. Honestly I hate ROS because Rey is related to HIM. Lbh, NOBODY would have sex with p*alpatine

the problem with episodes 7-9 is that each is a standalone film. that is not a problem in itself since every other star wars trilogy movies could technically be watched as a standalone and with a little context you’d be fine, since they tell an overarching story with three more or less independent characters. episodes 7-9 do not tell an overarching story, they are each chapters to a different telling of rey’s story. ep 7 tells the story of rey nobody, who is both the narrative foil and the in-world counterpart of one of the strongest force users alive, and that’s honestly already a really good premise, buuuuut if we’re going to have a trilogy then that main conflict should be resolved either in the second movie or at the very least in the first half or so of the third because things! need! to! happen! for! a reason! except that they don’t because at the climax of the second film kylo tells rey she’s a nobody, and apparently that changes nothing within her resolve which..... fine, let’s push it and say she’s going to deal with that in the third movie, whatever, but we get to it and actually she’s palpatine’s granddaughter so actually she’s all the jedi which. UGH. the point I’m trying to make is that she is a completely linear character being thrown in three different takes of her story, and I hate to say this because I LOVE her, but after the second movie I totally got it when people said she was a mary sue because her faith in the force and the jedi and her kindness and blahblah NEVER really waivers (except when she gets angry at luke which. saves everyone! how fuckin convenient!) and you could come out and say “lori, if we think like that luke skywalker is also a mary sue”, which, again, don’t get me wrong because he is literally my son but he IS. and in the 80’s that is FINE cause it’s the story we needed - a story about this starry (heh) eyed guy whose unwaivering faith in people and The Magic Around Him™️ may seem a little misguided at first but ends up saving everyone, but that was 40 years ago. and maybe it was silly of me to expect a nuanced take on The Human Specificity Of Empathy from a star wars movie but you know what, I don’t think it was since gareth edwards paved the way with rogue one that is the epitome of analysis of what it really means to be good or bad and I’m not going to rant about how rogue one is the best star wars movie today BUT it set the tone for a less us-vs-them view of the world which was VERY exciting and in line with what I think the 2010-20’s really wants from its heroes in general. so if we want to follow the narrative beats of the first trilogy or at least the first movie (no way of knowing where jj abrams would’ve gone in ep 8) I think that’s fine so as long as you make it your own, and imo jj abrams was, and then rian johnson was like nope lol, and jj abrams tried to fix the narrative 180 rian johnson tried to do, and like. episode 8 is a very fun movie to watch as a star wars fan but narratively it does not make any fuckin sense. I thought so then and now with ep 9 out I think so even more. rian johnson is a very creative guy, he had some REALLY interesting ideas, but WHY give him the creative liberty to do so in the MIDDLEEEEE of the trilogy??? WHY!?!?!? give him a star wars story film! he would KILL it! or you know wait a couple years so the director of the first movie who actually knows what the fuck he’s doing can direct the second, but noooooo the damned fucking mouse wants to wipe his ass with $100 bills so we cannot possibly wait. cohesive storytelling? we don’t give a shit about that in the house of le mouse.

that all to say, there is nothing Fundamentally wrong narratively with either of the three movies. they’re fun to watch. even ep 8, possibly my least fav of the bunch, was a fun experience in cinemas. it’s star wars and disney - they know how to make a blockbuster. the thing is that as a trilogy they simply do not make any sense. if you analyze each movie individually all three seem to have different core themes: ep 7’s is “nobodies are people too actually”, 8 is “maybe space fascists aren’t so bad, actually (also luke is here hey luke)”, and 9 is “I take that back, nobodies aren’t a people actually”. it’s satisfying to watch as a casual spectator who goes to the movies, seems some space gays with one braincell between the three of them and is like coolio and then goes home, but it’s not satisfying to watch as someone even the littlest bit invested in the story because there is no cohesive roundup of everything. the original trilogy was like is luke an idiot for being nice? is vader actually redeemable? is han deserving of trust despite being a space nerf herder? and sometimes u were like what’s happenin!!!! but in the end all your questions are answered quite satisfactorily. luke was right, han is sexy, vader was redeemable. in the prequels: how does anakin skywalker become darth vader? how do he and obi juan become the enemies we see in the death star? what happens to padme? and while the sequels are a beautiful mess that I love they do answer the questions they put out when episode 1 begins, so you know, imagine liking the sequels and hating the prequels when the PREQUELS make more sense, the PREQUELSSSS. anywhomst, point is: the sequels are like here is finn. finn is the first stormtrooper we see the face of! he defects! also the first stormtrooper we se defect. the other defector we know is bodhi from r1, who is very sympathetic despite being imperial, and clearly we’re supposed to feel empathy for finn. finn survives! finn finds rey! go finn I love u! and then. WHAT happens to finn? what furthers his character development into a full fledged person when he starts out with not even a name? where’s his anger? where’s his OBVIOUS narrative direction that should be “ex stormtrooper who shows imperials that fascism is bad actually”? nope, goes almost unmentioned from then on. and again, I love finn, he is literally baby, but he also froze after ep 7 because rian johnson decided to fuck shit up and also because disney is racist. poe? the do-good soldier who is supposed to be the Believer™️? actually he is the only one who was any semblance of a coherent role in ep 8... which is promptly retconned when jj abrams makes him a fucking spice runner in ep 9 lol. who is rey? and they’re like she’s a nobody and that’s why she’s spesh, wait no she is a nobody but she’s spesh because space fascist has the hots for her, oh, no, wait, she’s spesh because PALPATINE. what was the theme of this trilogy? what was the thesis? what questions did they set out to answer and did they answer them at all, never mind well? and it’s unclear, obviously, because three movies with three clearly different views behind them won’t magically make narrative sense just because you are trying to piece them together. they’re not pieces at all, they are three independent takes on the stars and the wars. enjoyable as little snacky treats, not as a three meal course. (also I’m not even going to TOUCH on how what was already a narrative mess was made worse by disney’s NONSTOP fanservice. sw sequels and game of thrones last season are the cautionary tales of why fanservice sucks and while a good, intelligent if cliche or predictable story is always better than a Shocking™️ one that doesn’t make any sense. but if I start on that I will LITERALLY not shut up SO AHEM CONTINUE @LIZZIBENNET)

ALL that to say: I agree w/ u and I LOVE your idea of each movie being an alternative version of the story. honestly, that would make more sense than what we have right now off the bat lol. can you imagine ep 7 being the rose colored version of the story via the heroes’ lenses, and then ep 8 being the “actually space fascism is good if ur kylo ren” version of the story, and then, ep 9 is what actually happened... told by rey nobody, who dances the line between the good and bad until there’s not a line anymore. CHEF’S FUCKIN KISS obviously much more risqué than disney would ever go for, but genius! much better than trying to make us care about these conflicts that they make up in the first 15 mins of each movie. ur mad because episode 7 follows the beats of 4? here’s three movies on why you were wrong when you judged it all true and therefore Bad. HUHU I love that

also the galaxy is a vast place... I am sure there are emperor fuckers out there

[emeraldspiral]

HOW JEDI LEIA FAILS ON EVERY CONCEIVABLE LEVEL AND OMITTING BEN FROM THE FINAL SCENE NOT ONLY HAD THE OPPOSITE EFFECT JJERRIO WERE GOING FOR BUT THE ENTIRE CONCEPT OF TRYING TO MAKE THE FINAL SCENE ABOUT LEIA’S “ASCENSION” TO THE JEDI PANTHEON WAS NEVER GOING TO WORK ANYWAY.

First of all; Leia reaches out to Ben as if he's at his worst and she's pulling him back from the brink when it's actually Rey who's going nuts and Ben just defending himself, never taking a single offensive swing at her, even already lowering his blade before she acts. This results in him getting stabbed, confusing the audience as to whether that was her intent or not. Leia then dies and it's unclear even how or why. This could've been explained, using pre-established rules set-up in TLJ, as Leia using the fatal Force projection technique to bring Ben a vision of Han, or introducing the ability of Force Sensitives to recall non-Force Sensitive spirits from the afterlife, which would've been perfectly believable as a fatal technique, even if it wasn't set-up beforehand. But instead, Terrio the Terrible claims Han was entirely a figment of Ben's imagination and Leia had nothing to do with it. So what should’ve been Leia’s greatest moment of heroism ends up being confusing, achieving way less than anyone thought, and kinda making her look bad, actually.

Second; Leia gives up her Jedi training because she had a vision that her son would die at the end of her path. Then Luke gives Rey Leia's saber and tells her she'd want her to finish her journey. None of that makes any goddamned sense.

What is a Jedi's path? Is it the trial they take to graduate from Padawan to full Jedi, or Jedi to Master Jedi? Is it a life mission, or just whatever current mission they're on? I mean, arguably Leia's whole life was dedicated to destroying the Empire, so even if she never met Palps or knew anything about how he'd personally victimized her family you could say defeating him was finishing what she started. But Leia was fighting the Empire long before she started her training, before she ever knew she had the Force, and she didn’t stop fighting after she quit training. She didn’t need to be a Jedi or a Skywalker to fight Palpatine and the Empire anymore than any other non-Force Sensitive in the Republic/Resistance. Her life would’ve been pretty much the same if she never found out about her lineage or abilities. The concept of a "Jedi path" is just words in a sequence that means nothing to the audience, so how was anybody supposed to get that Rey using her saber to defeat Palpatine would complete it so she could “ascend”?

Not to mention that the very idea that you can complete someone else's journey that way goes against any natural train of logic that anybody would have. Like, it'd be one thing if Leia died like the characters in R1, who give their lives so others can complete another leg of the journey, or to pass along something crucial to achieving victory. But she doesn’t save Rey when she dies, because she��s not in danger, and she certainly didn’t need to die to pass along her saber to Rey, even if you want to argue that her saber was crucial to Palpatine’s defeat.

Leia's death had no correlation to Rey's victory and that's not even how Terrio explains it. He frames it like using Leia's saber fulfilled her Jedi path, rather than Leia’s Jedi path being fulfilled by her making a sacrifice that allowed Rey to finish what she started by defeating Palpatine. This, coupled with the “burying symbolic infants” thing indicates that JJerrio are trying to deify lightsabers as if they’re extensions of a Jedi’s spirit, rather than tools, despite canon indicating otherwise. Anakin broke at least two sabers before he got the one that was passed on to Luke and he and Obi-Wan wielded random spares in the climax of AotC. Luke loses the legacy saber and just builds a new one, then tosses it aside when he commits to not killing in anger. Lightsabers are cool and sentimental because they’re handmade and personalized, but at the end of the day, they’re still just tools that can get lost or broken or even thrown away and it’s not that big a deal. It’s not even like in Harry Potter where you only get one wand that bonds to you and you’ll never be able to perform your best magic with any other so you’d better not break it.

Third; After Ben dies, Leia's body disappears and Maz smiles and nobody understands why. It sounds like Terrio's intent was that Leia could only "ascend to the Jedi pantheon" when her path was complete, (which goes against the canon explanation about who gets to become a ghost and how) and the conditions for completing her path were apparently 1) Palpatine had to be defeated by someone using her lightsaber and 2) her son had to die. But because the Jedi path thing made no sense and directly contradicts canon on multiple points, nobody gets it. So everyone grasps at straws trying to come up with reasonable explanations like, "She was waiting to meet her son" or "She was supposed to use the last of her life force to save Ben and subvert the prophecy before the ending was changed.”

Fourth; Ben's body disappearing ends up muddying the waters further because we don't know what the conditions are for someone to become a ghost either at the moment of their death or after a delayed period of time. Why do Luke, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Ben's bodies disappear instantly but Leia, Anakin, Qui-Gon, and all the other Jedi killed during Order 66 don't? It's only ever briefly mentioned to be a technique that you have to learn at the end of ROTS so in most people's minds becoming a ghost, whether it's instantly or not, is kinda considered the default for Jedi and not just reserved for the elite few.

Because of this, Ben disappearing reads as significant to the audience because it means he died a hero like Anakin and went to space heaven. But you expect that of Leia, because she was always a good guy, and had Jedi training, so even if you remembered that tidbit from ROTS about it being a skill you have to learn, there’s no reason to think she wouldn’t have learned it when she trained with Luke. Nobody thinks of it as "Oh, I'm so proud of Leia! What a big moment for her! She did it! She learned the super secret technique and now she’s in the Cool Kids Club" because it doesn’t click for anybody that there should’ve ever been any doubt that she could.

Fifth; Finally, we get to the end of the movie and JJerrio decided to only feature Luke and Leia as ghosts, reasoning that Ben or Anakin or anyone else's presence would distract from Leia's moment. But as outlined in the previous points, the entire premise behind that never would've worked in the first place. The fanservice was already had just from seeing Leia wielding a lightsaber and being told she had trained with Luke and knew all the badass stuff he knew and therefore was an equal to him because god forbid anyone in SW have value if they don't have a laser sword. Leia appearing as a ghost was something we already expected even before that retcon, ever since we first learned she was Luke's sister.

Her merely appearing as a ghost doesn't get across to anyone that "NOW she's a REAL Jedi and not just a mere Force Sensitive who went through all the Jedi training and learned all the cool tricks but never got her diploma from Jedi school so it didn't count before.”

By contrast, if Luke and Leia were surrounded by other Jedi, that would've made it much clearer that the moment was about how she was a fully initiated member of the Cool Kids Club. But because it's just the two of them, the audience reads it as a family thing that excludes half the family, who were both Jedi anyway, so they should've been there regardless of whether you actually wanted it to be read as a Jedi thing or a family thing.

So in JJerrio's alleged efforts to prevent Anakin and Ben from stealing Leia's thunder, their glaring omission ended up overshadowing everything about her "big moment" when no one was even going to think it was a big deal that she was a ghost in the first place even if they hadn’t fucked up the execution so hard.

Meanwhile, if they HAD included Ben, audiences might've just felt the slightest twinge of comfort and closure seeing that at least he and his mother were reunited in death. And for as nonsensically as it was executed, people at least still understood that Leia’s death was supposed to have saved Ben somehow, so having him there would’ve been a much greater statement about her heroism than simply showing up as a ghost because someone else used your sword. It’s like if you signed up to sponsor a needy child in Africa and instead of putting up pictures of the kid with new clothes and textbooks that your money helped pay for on the fridge, you put up a printout of your bank statement with the line showing your monthly withdrawl circled. Like, it’s not the cost to yourself that makes you a hero, it’s the good your sacrifice accomplished.

But what would've made an actual memorable and satisfying end to both Leia's story and the saga as a whole would've been if she'd done as the conspiracy theorists suggested and held out on exiting the mortal plane in order to transfer her life force to her son. Then she would've done at least one actually heroic thing, instead of something that just made no sense and kinda looked like the opposite of what it was intended to be and then whatever it was supposed to have accomplished was undone an hour later anyway but that's fine because she's gonna get credit for something someone else did because they used something of hers to do it.

[gffa]

I read your faves and least faves and realized you're a lot less sequel positive than I thought you were and also a big mood. The alien thing bugs me so much. Not only are there almost NO previously established races, but they're all either orange, grey, pink, or Caucasian flesh tone. And then they retcon Snoke from being chalk white to human white. Star Wars Resistance is FULL of aliens we've seen before but as soon as you step off the Colossus you get one-mouthed Ithorian knockoffs.

I never really know where to put myself re: the sequels, because there’s a lot I feel could have been so much better in easy to fix ways, but then I have to wonder how much of that is my own bias because one could say the same about the prequels, except could they, because I never really see a lot of, “if they had just tweaked this one thing here, then this one thing over here, the prequels could have been great!”, that a lot of the criticisms against the prequels are that they didn’t like what they did, but don’t really have ideas for what they would have liked, while the sequels I see a lot more, “I liked the basic set-up, but here’s what needed to be addressed”.Which is assuming it’s even fair to pit the prequels and the sequels (or the originals) against each other, because they each stand on their own, they can be taken on their own merits, BUT I keep navel gazing about why I’m so easy on the prequels when I’m harsher on the sequels.I think a lot of it, for all that TROS is actually my favorite of the sequel movies, that the prequel trilogy absolutely nailed its ending for me, that Revenge of the Sith is my all-time favorite Star Wars movie, and I thought that it really showed that George Lucas had a strong sense of who these characters were and where they were going and why they did what they did.The sequels have a ton of charm and I really do love the set-up, there’s been some really excellent worldbuilding (especially re: the political situation) in the supplementary material and they’ve worked to put more aliens back in the galaxy, and I’m softer on the sequels in that regard because I live in the supplementary materials much more than I do in just the movies (setting aside the whole aspect of how I do consider the movies to be the “foundation” of SW, at the very least for I through VI) and I’m willing to give them time to integrate TROS into things, just as I was willing to give them time to integrate TFA and then TLJ into the bigger tapestry of SW.It’s hard because I don’t want to be negative about the sequels so much, but I’ve been slipping into that mindset a lot because I see all these things that could have made the story stronger, could have used the pieces that were there better, could have widened up the scope of these movies so they don’t feel like they have such a narrow focus, how they could have better incorporated the worldbuilding (planets and aliens alike) to actually make this feel like the GFFA, but the more I focus on that, the more I get ensnared in that mindset.  The more I vent, the more frustration I feel.I think, too, part of the problem is that I’m not terribly enamored with the creators of these movies and it’s very hard to get enthused about interviews or insights when I’m so annoyed by both sides of the JJ/Terrio vs Rian Johnson thing and want both sides of this entire thing to just chill out already.  Not that it’s up to me, people do what they want on their own twitters, but sometimes I do feel like every tweet made about it saps a little more good will from me re: the sequels.  Also, you know, my fault for being on twitter to rubberneck the wank, fair enough! XDWhich means I keep trying to get back to a more positive place about the sequels, but it’s hard when it doesn’t feel like I’m finding the right corners of fandom who are just chilling out and enjoying the movies and characters and stories.  It feels like I’m constantly seeing everything pitted against each other and it wears my enthusiasm thin, especially when I have a lot of problems with the movies, but I want to be charitable towards them yet not ignore them.Nobody really seems to be having fun with the sequels and it’s hard for me to generate my own when it’s not the era of my heart, so I wind up being kind of more negative than usual, despite that I ACTUALLY REALLY LIKE THE SEQUELS ERA AND THE CHARACTERS.  *wistful*  I miss that time when the Phasma novel or Cobalt Squadron came out and I was just BURSTING WITH FEELINGS about the sequels and their amazing characters.Because I think another book like Spark of the Resistance would do a lot to jump start my positive feelings on the movies again.  Or a novel that better explains Ben Solo and his relationships with his family to me, to actually show us what’s going on in his head, to help me connect to the movie version better.I AM READY TO LOVE, STAR WARS, PLEASE GIVE ME MORE TO READ OR WATCH WITH THEM, I WILL YELL HAPPILY ABOUT IT IF YOU DO, I’M PRETTY SURE.

[benperorsolo]

In relation to TLJ, I think we're all seeing it as an anomaly because it was the ambiguous middle chapter, not because it was intentionally different. It's just that Rian was better at presenting DLF's crappy ideas than JJ, Trevorrow, and Terrio. At the end of the day, Rey's parentage and Reylo weren't 100% confirmed on screen by Rian. He had the villain reveal Rey's parentage instead of showing an actual undeniable flashback, and he never made Reylo explicitly romantic.

"My parents were nothing" isn't confirmation to you? TLJ is not nearly as ambiguous as you give it credit for. It's not a mystery box movie like JJ makes. It is clear and simple. Rian just doesn't hold your hand and announce with flashing letters on screen that he wants you to understand because his structure and directorial choices are telling this story for him.

ESB is also an "ambiguous middle chapter" and ROTJ doesn't go around contradicting it. We don't find out that Vader was lying about being Luke's father. A lot of people at the time thought he had to be lying because he was the villain (just like people did with Ben). But he was telling the truth, because in SW the villains represent the subconscious of the hero. It is nonsensical and against the point for the villain to lie, and he didn't. We don't find out that after the HanLeia kiss, Leia decides to go with some other random guy. She goes with Han. We don't find out that some random new villain had been pulling the strings all along; Palpatine was shown in ESB as the man behind Vader and he proceeds to be in ROTJ.

Leia being Luke's sister is the most egregious thing GL made up for ROTJ and the fact that it was an asspull continues to overshadow Leia's relationship with the Skywalker clan. In the end one could say the unwillingness of LF to fully address the in universe implications of Leia "Skywalker" is what got her character totally retconned in TROS into someone she has never been for any stage of her development, and got her son turned to the DS and killed.

Rian confirmed Rey Nobody and Reylo. It was part of the structure of the plot. Someone doesn't need to look directly into the camera and spell out plot points for something to be confirmed. Rey Nobody and the Reylo relationship are the two prime movers of the TLJ plot, full stop. Without those two things the plot doesn't function and that is as "confirmed" as it gets for a director that trusts the audience doesn't need to be handheld through every plot point. TROS could choose only how it dealt with those two things and it chose to deal with them in a way that produced nonsense and a shallow, disjointed mess of a plot structure for the overall trilogy.

[hamliet]

Hello! Have you seen TROS yet? [Spoiler alert] I was really devastated by the ending - coming out the theater feeling upset and disappointed. Do you have any thoughts on it? Or maybe any plan to write fix-it fic? Thank you!

I am seeing it tomorrow. That said, I’ve read the plot summary, and no good execution can save that. So I was planning on posting this after I watched it with amendments made as I hope to enjoy it, but I’ll just post it now and amend this as necessary based on the film as I see it. (I still believe I will enjoy the film, even if I don’t think it’s a good film. I do think that. I really do... I hope.)

BASED ON THE PLOT SUMMARIES ALONE (grains of salt everywhere!): 

I think it’s technically… messy writing at best and downright bad writing in other parts.* 10/10 it’s a blockuster-y, JJ Abrams-esque, (hopefully) fun, messy narrative movie that will be forgotten in 0.3 seconds.

Disclaimer before everyone comes after me: if you like it, AWESOME. If you think it’s good writing, great! Good writing and bad writing are inherently subjective; that said, there are general consensuses among literary studies about what constitutes bad and good writing. Hence, I’m relying on those consensuses when I call it messily written.

Before we get into specifics, I’ll compare it to two other major pop culture endings: Game of Thrones and Avengers: Endgame.

TROS is similar to the GoT final season in that it attempts to incorporate every aspect of fan speculation ever. However, it’s more like Endgame in that it is still somewhat true to the themes and characters—but unfortunately also like Endgame, it is not transformative or particularly interesting as a story on its own. In fact, it’s rather boring and honestly… bad storytelling. It tries to rehash Return of the Jedi but it doesn’t succeed in any way because the world and the overall story has grown since the early 1980s, and so the same story doesn’t work anymore.

Showing a cyclical story remaining cyclical with no sign of that breaking–instead, the cycles are even reinforced–does not give optimism nor does it give hope.

Redemption=death needs to die already. If we really want to reach people and tell them that the message is that you can always make a better choice (as Daisy Ridley and JJ Abrams have said about Kylo’s arc), maybe don’t send the message in each and every story that you have to die to redeem yourself. Look outside of cultural secular Calvinism, for the love of God and the betterment of the world and stories as a whole.

Now let’s talk Rey’s parentage.

We know Rey Palpatine wasn’t planned from the beginning (Trevorrow, the original write/director of IX, who was thankfully fired, said that he never planned for Palpatine to return), which means Rey’s parentage was most likely retconned from TLJ and there was no real plan for the sequel trilogy’s overall character arcs (save for Kylo’s, according to the actors and writers).

Listen to me. You don’t have to have everything planned when you start a three-film saga, but you gotta know the major beats.

This is like a sad game of movie telephone. 

Yes, I know the OT Star Wars didn’t have a plan either and it’s like one of the only examples I can think of where no plan worked out–albeit not without hiccups (Leia kissing Luke, anyone?) If you expect lightning to strike twice in the same place, I’m sorry, but you are hopelessly naive.

Having Rey decide she wants to carry on the name Skywalker at the end is lame as shit. It’s a way to appease fans while being like nah she still isn’t related. Trying to please every fan is a sure way to guarantee that you will please no one. It might make for a perfectly pleasant film experience (I really hope it does), but not good, lasting storytelling (though not like, horrific either). It’s meh. It’s like… giving someone who is starving oatmeal. It will get the job done but will it satisfy and enthrall people? Not quite.

And let’s switch gears for a minute to Finn and Rose, my first and third favorite characters in this trilogy (Kylo is second, Rey is fourth). The sidelining of Rose is nothing short of a terrible attempt to please the white-supremacist-aligned Fandom Menace. Let’s not pretend it’s anything else. JJ’s lipservice about how wonderful it was that Kelly was cast at SW Celebration is, in hindsight, absolutely nauseating.

Shame on JJ. Shame on Disney.

But the main problem I have with this film is this:

Why did it need to exist?

The answer is money. Obviously. I know, I know stories exist to make money. That doesn’t mean I can’t criticize the fact that the story was sacrificed on the unholy altar of capitalism and Disney’s desire to own our souls. (Disney–the reason I like your movies is that a lot of them are good stories. I’m not interested in pandering soooooo.)

The Rise of Skywalker does not enhance the Star Wars narrative. Nothing about this film satisfies the Skywalker Saga nor the sequel trilogy, and it kind of all comes down to Kylo Ren’s death being the nail that sunk the entire world of Star Wars.

Keep in mind Kylo is not my favorite character when I’m saying this. Finn is. But I never spoke about Finn as much because the story didn’t utilize him properly. I never had concerns about Finn getting a happy ending while I was worried for Rey and Kylo’s arcs. (Finn’s arc, however, did have a ton more potential than was capitalized on; in particular, he would have been better if he was more conflicted over say, shooting other stormtroopers. His whole character humanized the usual red shirts, which when paired with Rose’s everywoman character, had so much potential I could shriek about it all day. That he didn’t lead other brainwashed stormtroopers into rebellion and freedom saddens me. Also, his ending again seems to bring about a good victim/bad victim dichotomy when it is compared with Kylo’s. The reason these two are my faves is that they were brainwashed as kids which, well, I can kinda sorta heavily relate to.)

Kylo Ren and Rey’s relationship doesn’t really get much better than it did in The Last Jedi. It actually rehashes that arc significantly. We already knew Kylo would fight for Rey and the galaxy, so… how was this different? Now, if he had lived, it would have been different, because it was the after the fight that proved that Kylo wasn’t ready to redeem himself in The Last Jedi. It was Kylo’s choice to stay at the expense of Rey and the Resistance that was literally the set up for conflict in the next film. This… turned it into nothing? Their conflict is rehashed and then whoo-hoo! Easy way out! Kill him so that they don’t have to deal with the “after” this time! They never have to deal with the conflict literally set up in The Last Jedi.

That’s bad writing, fam.

Life is infinitely more interesting. Leaving the story open with a living Skywalker instead of killing literally everyone involved with the Skywalkers except Rey who now adopts that name is… so unsatisfying I can’t even. Even if later material shows him showing up as a Force Ghost, like: cool saw that with Vader so this… adds nothing to the existing films. It doesn’t really reconcile anything.

It also… does not help the Rey=Mary Sue argument. She is NOT a Mary Sue, and that is a sexist term itself, but in no way is it a satisfying ending to her arc, because it isn’t a well-written ending which means it isn’t a well-written arc. The problem with Rey’s ending is a mirror of my problem with Kylo’s ending: it’s the very much a combination of her ending in The Last Jedi and her life before The Force Awakens.

She and Kylo are now separated (permanently this time).

She’s has her Resistance friends.

She’s alone on a desert planet.

But wait! Now she’s now happy!

Uh, why? The only reason I can think of is that the narrative demands it. Because honestly, what changes? The family she chose–the Skywalkers–are just as dead as her Palpatine birth family, soooooo. I suppose she reconciled with her heritage and come to peace with it and so that’s why she’s happy now, but… I can’t lie. It’s not hopeful. It’s not optimistic. It’s not Star Wars and it isn’t consistent for the message (especially if this is supposed to be the ending to the saga!) to be both:

life sucks for the Skywalkers and then they die–seriously, look at Shmi, Anakin, Padmé, Leia, Luke, Han, Kylo–it is LITERALLY ALL OF THEM; and

deciding to be a Skywalker means you’re at peace.

I can only assume Rey’s life will suck and then she’ll die, tbh, unless of course she is better off because of her blood… which negates the point of her being a Skywalker and is a really gross idea.

YOU CAN’T HAVE BOTH IN YOUR ENDING. PICK ONE.

Rejecting the Skywalkers would be anti-Star Wars, for sure, but marrying into them as a way of bridging the unfinished pain between Anakin and Padmé and Leia and her father? Much better. Or just leave it open. Honestly, leave it open for Kylo and Rey to both be alive and see each other again.

But you’re just upset your ship didn’t get a happy ending!

No, I’m upset about the storytelling, of which shipping is a part. A canonical part just as much as the lightsaber fights are. Anakin and Padmé. Leia and Han. Finn and Rose. Poe and Zorii. Rey and Ben.

The Force created Anakin, remember? All films–even the spin-offs–encourage our heroes to trust the force. “May the force be with us.” But the Force created an ENTIRE FAMILY THAT LIVED LIVES THAT SUCKED AND MADE LIFE SUCK FOR EVERYONE AROUND THEM AND THEN THEY DIED.

May the Force stay far the f*ck away from me, amen.

But seriously I can’t trust the world of a galaxy far far away or its narrative anymore. It’s a contradiction that causes all nine films to unravel. Why?

Again, let’s return to my earlier GoT comparison, because there is one thing TROS does that is more similar to GoT than to Endgame: Endgame drew together a bunch of unique distinctly separate stories into a crossover. TROS, just like GoT, relied on cliffhanger, incomplete endings to its films and therefore the ending matters a hell of a lot more than a stand-alone story.

I’m not dying to rewatch it like I am with stories where I realize I might learn more the second time. And by “rewatch it” I mean the entire nine-film saga. Knowing that canonically Leia, Luke, Han–they all die and their last descendent dies, the last descendent of Padmé and Anakin–for me, it’s personally gonna be hard to watch again. It’s gonna be hard to watch TROS going into it the first time.

And so the saga of bad endings continues.

Game of Thrones remains the worst at a -100 out of 10. It’s followed by Tokyo Ghoul:re which is still 2/10, and Star Wars is, on paper (meaning after I see it I am hoping it rises a few notches) now… 4/10. Endgame is a solid 6.5/10.

Banana Fish, sweetie, I’m sorry you were ranked down there. Your ending is a 7/10 but the rest of your story is like, 10/10 so you are sprung from this list.

Help me, Shingeki no Kyojin. You’re my only hope.

[supremeprince-bensolo]

The Rise of Skywalker thoughts/review

I’ve now had two weeks to process my thoughts on the movie. Immediately after, I was actually feeling quite okay (but mostly sad due to the fate of my favourite character). But I didn’t hate the movie, I actually loved most of it after the first initial viewing. I went with my family who are casual fans. My dad said it’s his favourite SW movie, my mum loved it too, and my brother thought it was a satisfying ending to the saga. My feelings were a lot more complicated. There were things I loved, but also things I absolutely hated and thought should have been done differently.

First off, I had a bit of a memorable experience at the cinema. The projector stopped working twice (only in Australia will the temperature cause the projectors to malfunction!). But it meant they rewound the film a little so I got to see the scene where Rey shoots lightning to take the transport ship down (and Kylo strutting up looking like a prince) and Dark Rey/Kylo showing up on the Death Star twice. So, thankfully they stopped during Reylo scenes so I got to see them again (but if only it had stopped right after the kiss and they couldn’t get the projector working again…).

I was actually looking forward to Palpatine being back. He is the ultimate evil and the person who seduced Anakin to the Dark Side which started this whole saga. I could buy that he was behind everything. And as much as I’d hoped to find out how he survived, it didn’t bother me too much that they didn’t tell us. The Sith use the Force in very unnatural ways so it doesn’t surprise me that he somehow managed to cheat death.

“I have been every voice (Palpatine), you have ever heard (Snoke), inside your head (Vader).” The entire time it was Palpatine. It was him pulling the strings, wanting revenge on Vader by ruining the Skywalker legacy and grooming Ben into becoming a stronger and more loyal Vader. He made Snoke, literally (the jar full of Snoke clones was creepy). Kylo believed he was talking to his grandfather when he talked to the Vader mask, but it was really Palpatine feeding him lies and manipulating him. This entire sequence was unsettling and really worked for me.

‘The dead speak!’ In theory, Palpatine’s return could have worked very well. But it’s between movies that it all happens. There is a lot of exposition in the opening crawl, perhaps a bit too much. It was overwhelming. There was no build up, he’s just back and no one questions it and we’re straight into the action.

And also Kylo finding out that it was Palpatine who had been this voice in his head, that should have had huge ramifications. He should have had an identity crisis and started questioning everything. But there wasn’t time, there was too much plot to get through, no time to sit with a huge reveal like this I guess.

I was actually very surprised how well all the Leia scenes fit in. I can only imagine how limiting it must have been with only old footage from TFA, but considering the circumstances I think they did a good job. Having her training Rey and the reveal that Luke had actually trained her to become a Jedi, and she even made her own lightsaber. I did enjoy that. And it was very impactful to have her final word be ‘Ben’.

I hate that Rose was completely sidelined. She had one minute of screen time and had absolutely nothing to do. She was a important character in TLJ and this movie completely ignored her. She literally saved Finn’s life in the last movie and he didn’t even acknowledge her.

I enjoyed the trio adventure! It was just a lot of fun! Great to see Rey and Finn together again. And I loved how Rey and Poe were constantly at odds with each other couldn’t stop arguing. I love how they disagreed on everything. It made for a fun ride. Fun, but ultimately devoid of any real depth.

I didn’t like the whole thing of Finn constantly wanting to tell Rey something. He loves her? He’s Force sensitive? Who knows because we never find out. Poe was looking jealous (because he thought he loved Rey?). And Finn completely ignored Rose (which was awful). And Jannah being yet another love interest for him? I wasn’t a fan of any of that at all.

I actually like the idea of Rey being Palpatine’s granddaughter. I would much prefer her to be a nobody, but I do like the concept of her being a Palpatine. In theory, it is the basis for a great story. Vader’s grandson and Palpatine’s granddaughter falling in love and bringing balance to the Force. It could have been great. All the set up was there for it to be a compelling story that tied everything together. But the way the movie dealt with it was a letdown.

So I guess they didn’t completely retcon Rey’s parents reveal from TLJ. Her parents were nobodies, but by choice. To protect her. So… they sold her for drinking money to protect her? They apparently cared about her yet they left her with Unkar Plutt?

What didn’t work about Rey being a Palpatine is that it was essentially to explain that she’s only this powerful because of her bloodline. But what that does is undermine her. Why can’t she just be powerful on her own? I guess it also gave her a reason to want revenge on Palpatine, but that should have been Ben. You know, the actual descendant of the bloodline that he tried to corrupt.

The MacGuffins. The cave where they encounter an injured snake which Rey heals by passing on some of her life force to it, showing off her healing abilities which come into play later. Conveniently finding the Sith relics and an abandoned ship where Rey’s parents were killed. The dagger, which is map to the Wayfinder on the wreckage of the second Death Star. And it’s also the dagger that was used to kill her parents. The Wayfinder which leads them directly to Exegol. All these things that are necessary to get from point A to point B in order to further the plot. But there were just so many of them.

And all the fake out deaths. We thought Chewie died, but he didn’t. C-3PO’s memory was wiped, but R2-D2 restored it. Zorii Bliss may have been on Kimiji when it was destroyed, but she wasn’t. Either kill them or don’t. It just felt like there were no stakes because they weren’t bold enough to actually kill anyone.

All the Force Bond scenes were great! Kylo sensing where Rey is and SNATCHING THE NECKLACE!! First time they’ve connected in this movie, and possibly the first time in months?? There was a lot of tension between them. It showed how much stronger their bond has gotten. This is a long way from touching hands. The lightsaber battle through the bond in Kylo’s chambers causing damage to each others surroundings. Loved that!

Basically all the Rey/Kylo scenes were great! But the one thing I couldn’t believe that these two idiots were still so at arms with each other. I know they felt rejected from everything that went down in TLJ, but really Rey? She didn’t seem like herself. I guess this was to show us her dark side and the extent of her power. I LOVED Kylo strutting over to her on Pasaana like the prince he is. She was obviously a little impressed (and relieved!) that he managed to survive her little backflip/slice trick. The tug of war over the transport ship, neither could overpower the other because they are equals. And then Rey shoots FORCE LIGHTING OUT OF HER HANDS and he just looks on in awe at her. She can’t believe what she just did, and damn, just imagine how amazing would it have been if she’d accidentally killed her parents by bringing their ship crashing down. She looked absolutely traumatised by what she did to that transport ship. Missed opportunity.

Kylo repairing his mask did mostly work for me. I love the symbolism of it. He destroyed it in the last movie so he couldn’t hide anymore, but now he decided he did want to hide again. The obvious red cracks in the repaired mask representing how torn he is inside, and if there are cracks it means the light can still get in. I did like that. But I do feel like they just repaired it cause it looked cool and not for the symbolism but I’ll take what I can get.

Crushing the Wayfinder in his massive hand was something. The power he has. The lightsaber duel on the Death Star wreckage was EPIC! With the waves plummeting around them. Very visually stunning. And as always, Rey is the one who is angry. Kylo blocks her attacks and defends himself, but he never makes the first move. He wants Rey to join him. He wants them to team up and defeat Palpatine together. He wants her to take his hand and and he knows she will one day.

The death of Kylo Ren. His mothers voice distracts him, Leia uses the remainder of her life force in the hopes of bringing him back. All she wanted was for him to come home. That’s all she ever wanted.

“I did want to take your hand. Ben’s hand.” After Rey stabs him, symbolically killing the Kylo Ren persona, she heals him. This moment was so sweet, and emotional. After everything, I’m sure he doesn’t feel that he deserves to be healed. He looks on at her in awe, the only person who has ever showed him this kind of care and compassion. She looks so sad and regretful of what she did. And his scar is also healed.

That moment is important because that is when he realises he wants to come back. He does want to become Ben again. After trying so hard to kill that identity, the realisation that the woman he loves wants to be with Ben, not Kylo, is the motivation he needs. It’s love that brings him back. Love from from his mother and the love he has for Rey. Kylo Ren is dead. Ben Solo is reborn. I LOVED that moment.

I also loved when Han shows up to Ben. He shows up as a memory (I assume it was only a memory although it’s not entirely clear). Han tells him to come home, but Ben says he can’t. Leia is gone, but Han points out that her cause isn’t. He can go to the Resistance. He can still choose to do the right thing.

“I know what I have to do but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it.” He has the chance to replay this moment in his mind, and this time, he does what he wishes he had done back then. Instead of killing his father, he throws his lightsaber away, completely shunning the identity of Kylo Ren and chooses to be Ben Solo. He calls him ‘Dad’, and the way he said it is so fragile and so broken. And then his father puts his hand on his cheek, where his scar used to be. I loved that scene. It hit all the right emotional beats and was a huge turning point for Ben.

Hux being the spy was hilarious! I couldn’t help but laugh. We all suspected he’d try to overthrow Kylo, but this was just ridiculous. His character turned into a joke and then he was killed and the new officer took over just like that. What a waste.

Force Ghost Luke appearing to Rey. And only to her. After TLJ I thought he’d be haunting Ben, his nephew, and try to knock some sense into him. But he only appeared to Rey to give her Leia’s lightsaber and his old X-Wing. Oh, and he and Leia knew that she was Palpatine’s granddaughter and yet they helped her anyway. I’m sorry, they helped this evil’s offspring and completely neglected their own blood?? And Leia gave up becoming a Jedi after foreseeing Ben’s death at the end of her training. If she was scared of him dying she should have actually tried to help him, instead of neglecting him and sending him away. They all failed Ben and it just hurts.

“It’s not a navy, sir. It’s just people.” When everything seemed hopeless all these ships suddenly appear at lightspeed. But these aren’t armies, it’s the people. They were never alone in the fight. They never were. Good people of the galaxy came to help them fight. I loved that moment!

THE RETURN OF BEN SOLO!! He was wearing this crew neck sweater (which even has a hole in it! Adorable!). That little ‘ow’ when he lands on the structure (his final word, sob). The moment when Rey senses him close and their bond opens up. They relief on her face at seeing that someone came back for her. The look in her eyes and the blue illuminating her face. That was amazing!! And then passing the legacy lightsaber behind her and BEN TAKES IT and does this Han Solo shrug and obliterates the Knights of Ren!! The power of their bond. That moment was INCREDIBLE!!

Palpatine wants Rey to kill him so his spirit can be transferred into her and she can ascend as Empress. So lets get this straight, he wanted to kill her as a child, and he wanted Kylo to kill her, but now he wants her alive and wants her to kill him so she can take his power? What was his plan? I don’t even know. I was very unclear by what he was trying to do.

“The life force of your bond…a dyad in the Force. A power like life itself. Unseen for generations.” As Rey and Ben stand together with the lightsabers ignited, Palpatine senses their bond. They are a ‘Dyad in the Force’. Essentially, they are two halves of one soul. They explicitly give an explanation as to why they are so deeply connected to each other.

When Palpatine throws Ben down the pit, not gonna lie I was worried. The last Skywalker, gone. Rey hearing all the voices of the fallen Jedi was a powerful moment. Anakin, Luke, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Mace Windu among others. With their help, she single handedly defeats Palpatine. But after they blatantly told us that Ben and Rey’s power combined is a power like life itself, they should have defeated him together. She shouldn’t have been able to defeat him alone. And after everything that Palpatine has done to the Skywalker’s, Ben should have been a part of his downfall.

And do not even get me started on the fact that the voices only came to Rey. They completely forgot about Ben who was down in the pit. He had to pull himself out and he manages to crawl over to Rey and cradles her in his arms. And he looks around for help, for anyone to help, but he’s all alone.

He uses his life force to revive her, because he can’t bear the thought of her dying. When she takes his hand, I swear my heart almost stopped. She takes Ben’s hand. She’s stunned, like she’s waking up from a nightmare, and then her face softens into a smile when she sees him. When she sees Ben. This was who she wanted all along. And the kiss WAS EVERYTHING!! She kisses him, and he kisses her back so desperately. And BEN’S SMILE!!! That lit up my entire world. He felt loved. He’d found his belonging. For a fleeting moment he was happy…

And then he falls and dies. But this whole scene was incredibly moving. He gave his life for her. He succeeded where Anakin failed and saved the woman he loved. He made the ultimate sacrifice. But it was cruel to have him finally find peace, to finally be on the path to a better life, and then take it all away. Ben never had the chance to really live. And now he never will. He chose to come back. He did the right thing, and he should have had the chance to keep making good choices. But instead they took the easy way out and killed him.

After all the fake out deaths I was waiting for him to show up at the end very much alive. But there was nothing. Rey didn’t mourn him. She didn’t tell anyone what he did. He didn’t come back as a Force Ghost. He was just forgotten. He was neglected, as he had been his entire life.

Rey’s new lightsaber. The hilt looks to be made of her staff and the blade is yellow. Neither light nor dark. It signifies that she’s found balance. I liked that.

Rey Skywalker. I get the whole sentiment of rejecting your bloodline and choosing your own family, but in a saga that has been about this one family to kill them all off and then have someone else take over their name? It’s insulting. The Skywalker family were all defeated. How is this a satisfying end to their story? And if anything, she should be a Solo, not a Skywalker. Or better yet, just Rey. Why does she even need a last name? Why can’t she just be Rey?

And she ended up alone on a desert planet, which is exactly where she began. She ended up in the same place she started. Except now she’s been on this adventure and she did find her belonging. But it was all taken away and now half her soul is dead.

So, I certainly have a lot of issues with this film but I didn’t hate it completely. There was a lot I loved. But it seems that they cared more about the spectacle and nostalgia rather than writing a cohesive conclusion to the saga. The seeds were all planted for them to nail the ending, but they didn’t. This movie was one big action packed mess with no clear vision.

This was supposed to be a fairytale but it ended in tragedy. How the hell is this satisfying? I do not understand. The last Skywalker died. Rey ended up alone with half her soul dead. This was not a happy and hopeful ending. This is not the ending the Skywalker Saga deserved.

[gch1995]

Hi, yesterdays anon here. I wrote to you because I hate people being wrong on the internet about SW (-; . Anyway, I don't see why Obi-Wan being bound to Tatooine 24/7 is so terribly important to you. His leaving Tatooine under Disney certainly makes more sense than Maul surviving being cut in half because Lucas wished to use him again. Just sayin'. Anyway, this conversation is my fault for reading your bad takes willingly, but for the love of god, do not posit your assumptions as facts.

Geez, nonny. Well, maybe I have a problem with Obi-Wan leaving Tatooine because it undermines the significance of Luke’s role in Vader’s arc and as the ideal Jedi to save the day in the OT. Look, no one was responsible for saving Anakin if he didn’t go out of his way to be saved, but the fact that Luke was able to do one of the significant things with his father that Obi-Wan never could do for Anakin by just being empathetic enough to treat him as a person who’s feelings and voice actually mattered, rather than telling him to dismiss everything he believed to be right versus wrong to subserviently serve “the greater good” of the Jedi Order, acts as a contrast between Luke and the old Jedi Order.

He was empathetic enough to consider individual personal beliefs, feelings, and opinions as valid, while Obi-Wan and many of the old Jedi Order members often completely dismissed, invalidated, and shut down individual personal beliefs, feelings, opinions, and ideals that didn’t conform to their way of life, detachment, and the “greater good” of the Jedi Order and Republic. He drew boundaries and pointed out that he knew his father knew he was doing wrong, but Luke also didn’t force Anakin to be anyone he didn’t want to be, victim blame him for being manipulated by Sidious, or attempt to lure him into a trap to kill him upon Yoda’s orders.

I know Disney has retconned it to make Luke Skywalker a failure like his predecessors because they are a greedy and lazy corporation, but he was supposed to be the balance to the Order.

Obi-Wan and his father were meant to be his foils, not these perfect heroes. Never is Anakin portrayed as more than an antihero at best. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, Disney is now trying to make out to be this Jedi who was right all along, and that’s just not the character he was in the OT or PT movies.

Also, I don’t know why you’re so butthurt, nonny. Just because I don’t like Obi-Wan Kenobi because he’s nothing more than a one-dimensional and badly written side character, who the fandom only started liking when he got played by Ewan McGregor, anyway, that doesn’t mean I’m a “bad” fan. Moreover, I’m constantly tagging my posts “obi wan critical,” “anti Kenobists,” and “anti Obi-Wan show” to try to stay out of your lane. It’s not my fault if you decide to read my posts.