#or that marinette is to blame for everything and needs to be punished

[purrincess-chat]

People in this fandom really be like "Oh no we're not salting on Adrienette/Marinette, we're coming up with worst-case scenarios just for fun and then expecting them to happen in canon. The fact that we're the same people who used to whine about canon "killing off ladynoir" for months and that the funny break-up/cheating scenarios are always about Adrienette is just a coincidence, it's totally unrelated, no no you don't understand, it's different. We don't want Adrienette to break up for real, nobody wants it, but a breakup would be beneficial for them, so we'll be holding our breath.". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

As someone who was both around for the great Chameleon salt wars as well as a participant in them, at least the salters back then could admit that we were salty and owned up to it. We called shit writing way back then and people were like "no, the writing is great you guys are just so picky and don't understand the show" and now that canon has done something they don't like they're doing the same shit but insisting they're different and better 😂 like nah, babes, yall are salty. Say it with your chest.

And like I'm not immensely pleased with the ending of s5, but Adrinette is not what went wrong last season. Adrinette was one of the only good parts of the latter half of s5. I still hold that their development in s5 was good, and I appreciate how they handled their relationship with going slow and building trust and understanding. Everything that happened with Gabriel that whole season is what was wrong with s5. But we don't see anyone talking about that shit. Everything is Adrinettes fault, or more specifically, Marinette's fault, and she needs to be punished and get dumped by the boy of her dreams so she can run into his arms again in a cat suit for comfort. That's not likely to fuck either of them up when a reveal happens. How could it? 🤡

Point blank, if yall are actively rooting for an Adrinette breakup solely bc you want LN to get together or want Marinette to be punished for keeping secrets, yall are salty. Own it.

[ilikekidsshows]

Sorry for putting this in your ask box, I just need to vent before I reply to that person's post and get into an useless argument.

I simply can't understand how someone can genuinely convince themselves into believing that Marinette is the one who's shortcomings or "joke problematic behaviour" in the love square are treated harsher and more seriously than Adrien's.

That Cat Noir harassing Ladybug was less punished and covered by the story than Marinette's stalking

???

What the fuck kind of show are they watching, it sure as hell isn't Miraculous.

Adrien was wrecked over the coals in season 4 and 5 and blamed for EVERYTHING in Ladynoir! Everything was blamed on his love for her and on how he's owed nothing in any way possible, he's just entitled, everything she does is actually right and just and he just needs to learn his lesson and understand that and stop MAKING HER treat him badly. He's made responsible for EVERYTHING she does to him and he's forced to swallow it as the truth and improve so she never ever has to.

This show went above and beyond to punish Adrien for his "joke problematic behaviour", meanwhile Marinette was called out twice for her sralking in little scenes in Emotion and Pretention and in both she pouted like a child that she has to even acknowledge any fault of her own.

Marinette was NEVER called out by adrien for her shit. Especially not in the way Maribug gets to punish Cat Noir for how he loves or doesn't love her (let's not forget how she was willing to turn into his enemy in Elation for being told no, and then afterwards immediately wanted to leave in Kwamis Choice before Plagg even got there because of how much Elation "broke" her. Something ADRIEN WAS THEN BLAMED FOR).

What a fucking JOKE that people think Adrichat's side of the love square is getting blames less. Buddy, ADRIEN AND CAT NOIR is the one who was made to entirely change to develop the love square.

CAT NOIR stopped loving Ladybug and accepted that he was wrong all along in everything

And ADRIEN was made to feel like he was wrong for not having noticed Marinette from the get go, they even made him do all the work in s5 Adrinette to "make it up for her suffering he inflicted upon her as oblivious Adrien and AWFUL Cat Noir who denied her in Elation".

The reason why Marinette's shortcomings (or the stalking "joke") are still being put front centre is because THE SHOW NEVER ACTUALLY ASKED HER TO GROW PAST THAT! She wasn't punished more for it cause if she had been she were the one now who's narrative punishment/ development changed the entire love square! But she didn't!

Adrien/ Cat Noir doesn't display his flaws anymore because the show blamed and punished that boy to hell and back so Marinette can stay validated and static.

Adrien/ Cat Noir doesn't display his flaws anymore because the show took it serious enough to make him fucking STOP.

Marinette's flaws still being front and center doesn't mean she's punished more by the narrative, it's means that MAYBE it's should be HER for once and not Adrien who's being punished and forced to stop and change!

---

Yeah, like, in every single episode we get to know exactly how Marinette feels about anything going on, her perspective is valued even in other people's problems. God forbid, if she's upset over that other person’s problem because then her being upset is everybody else's problem too. Meanwhile, anything that's directly influenced Adrien gets swept under the rug without as much as a comment from him, or we get a general “he’s sad but he’ll just take care of himself”.

Adrien has been made to apologize for and walk back everything his salters whine about, meanwhile, all Marinette is made to give us is excuses for why she was totally justified, actually, before she keeps doing the thing she supposedly was called out on. Could you imagine if Sublime had lashed out at Marinette for doing the thing she's been told she shouldn't do in ‘Sublimation’? Sublime would have been treated as the villain both by the writers and fandom. Meanwhile Cat Noir getting thrown into a trash can by Ladybug is treated as justified.

Now that she knows you can easily resist an Akuma, that means she was going to let Gabriel Akumatize her because Cat Noir wouldn't kiss her until he kissed her under duress, and no one as much as mentions that. But, sure, it's her who is always punished and Cat Noir who always gets catered to. Some people just don’t pay attention to what actually happens in the shows they watch. Plot summary Youtube videos are good for people who can't experience a story in its original format for some reason, but these are the people who think those videos are an "analysis": people who can’t even follow basic sequences of events.

[jasmine-the-fox]

Was just a mask

Okay guys! another fic request from A29Z10 here for you guessed it VALENTINE'S DAY!! I hope you all enjoy it!!

Adrien Agreste was many things… but perfect was the main thing people believed about him… not knowing that it was all an act… a mask to be exact. Adrien was actually a psychopath… just like his father Gabriel. This was something that Emilie greatly feared and when Adrien began to be like his father…

She quickly used the peacock miraculous to purposefully harm herself to escape Gabriel and Adrien. This resulted in Gabriel determined in a psychotic way to get her back, as a result he became Hawkmoth and created akuma’s to help him get the ladybug and black cat miraculous for him so he can use the wish to bring back his wife.

Growing up, Adrien had caused a lot of problems by manipulating others and hurting some… but he was never punished as he got it all pinned on his first friend Chloe Bourgeois. At some point she thought about leaving Adrien… but due to her belief that he was her only friend she didn’t and stayed with him which caused her to blamed for everything he did.

Gabriel wanted to help Adrien work on a way to hide the truth better so he made him into a model so he could learn, as a result he was able to hide the truth from many… except from his aunt Amélie and his cousin Felix who knew the truth thanks to Emilie. Sadly, Felix wasn’t able to prove who Adrien really was since every time he would confront Adrien… it ended with Felix claimed as the bad guy.

Now years have gone by, Marinette is Ladybug the hero of Paris who is trying with the help of her partner Cat Noir… defeat Hawkmoth and stop him from akumatizing people. Sadly, things weren’t easy for her, both as Marinette and Ladybug… she was alone all because of Lila, Adrien and Cat Noir who worked hard to tear her away from her loved ones and now with-it being Valentine’s Day… she was alone.

She didn’t even understand why this was all happening to her “Marinette Dupain-Cheng?” she looked up to find Felix who held his phone in hand “You need to see this” he said before handing her his phone with a video open for her to watch… it greatly confused her but… she didn’t have anything else to do and from the look of it… he wanted her to know something important.

So… Marinette played the video… and uncovered Adrien’s true colors…

She was horrified as she watched Adrien harm people and then pin all of the blame onto Chloe to make him look innocent “And he’s been doing this for years?” she asked making Felix nod “It’s why my aunt vanished… Adrien got this from uncle and she couldn’t take it” he said making her eyes widen.

He then swiped on the screen and played her another video… one where she discovers that Adrien has been helping Lila to keep Mari alone… so he could be with her… if Ladybug rejects him again “Adrien is Cat Noir?” Mari asked making Felix nod “Turns out he told Lila and she agreed to keep his secret if he helped her with you… but he turned it around and made it he would help her keep you alone in exchange of him not revealing her as a liar” he explained making her nod before she slowly began to make her way back home to be in her bed and think over everything that she was now told.

As she walks into her room, she is surprised to find Chloe and Luka there “She was trying to gain the courage to come in and I helped her do so” Luka explained making her nod and look at Chloe. She looked nervous but at the same time determined to say something to Marinette “I wanted to say that I’m sorry for what I did to you” she explained this of course surprised Marinette considering who Chloe really… but then she remembers the video Felix showed her of when Adrien was younger.

It made her as a result not keep her guard up towards Chloe “Chloe and I spoke and have decided to work together to stop Adrien and Lila” Luka explained which surprised Mari “But how? Adrien is rich and Lila is a liar who can manipulate anyone she wants” she explained making Chloe grin “I’m rich too though” she said before she and Luka left the room to head out.

For the next couple of days, Chloe and Luka work together to collect evidence against Lila and Adrien. It took them a while but soon they had enough to take them down once for all… and to show that Lila is really a liar while Adrien isn’t the guy they thought he was from the start.

They slowly worked on a plan to reveal them and decided to make it happen at a fake Valentine’s Day ball where everyone can watch as they are revealed for who they really are in the end. Marinette designed the invites for the ball while Luka spread them around leaving Chloe and Felix to make sure everything was ready for the ball and their plan to destroy the Agreste’s and Lila once and for all “I just hope they leave me alone after this… I can’t take anymore of it” Marinette said as she worked on her dress for the ball.

Chloe had sent her all the materials she would need to design her own dress and promised her anything else she could need if needed… but that didn’t make her not worry that the plan backfires on them “Don’t worry Marinette! I’m sure everything will be fine in the end” Tikki said while eating her cookies.

Her words helped soothed some of Mari’s nerves… but not all of them but still enough that she was able to finish her dress for the ball “Now all there is left to do is wait for the big day” she said simply and moved away to relax and do something else to keep herself busy for now. Felix would sometimes come and visit to see how she was doing and that was what happened that day… however, Mari fell asleep so Tikki watched as Felix came in and spotted the dress.

He walked around it, examined it, touched it, checked the materials used to make it, added a few touches in her notes for her to look at when she wakes up, prepared the materials in case she wanted to add his ideas… and placed a box down by her sketchbook before walking over to Marinette, moving her hair away from her face, tucked her under a blanket and then left her room.

When she woke up confused Tikki quickly explained what happened so she moved to see the notes Felix wrote for her “These are amazing” she whispered and quickly moved to add what he wrote with a smile on her face while Tikki watched over her holder with a giggle… it was clear that Felix had fallen for her hard and he was determined to keep her close to him in anyway he could have her. Once Mari was done, she picked up the box and found a lovely choker with a heart shaped ruby… it was small of course but gorgeous to her.

It was going to look gorgeous with the dress when she puts them on together…

Soon… the night of the ball came. Mari was nervous but Felix was by her side as he was her date to the ball “Chloe and Luka are waiting by the entrance of the ball” he said making her nod in understanding… but she was still nervous about the whole thing.

Anything could happen and cause them to be seen as the bad guys in the whole thing and the last thing she wanted was for that to ruin her life and make her need to leave Paris forever in the end because someone wanted to hide who they really were. Mari took a deep breath as the car stopped, Felix let her do so and after a while moved to open the door and help her out to get inside for the ball “Everything will be fine… I promise” he whispers and Mari smiles in relief to his words… and then her eyes land on the new ring he was wearing.

Not knowing that it was the black cat miraculous… that he took from Adrien the first chance he had…

He hated that his cousin was Ladybug’s partner… and he didn’t want her to have him for much longer. As a result, he went to see his cousin one day as he was rushing around to get ready for a photo shoot. It hadn’t been hard at all to slip of the miraculous from Adrien and slip him a fake… Adrien clearly hasn’t noticed and thinks Plagg gave him the silent treatment or something “He probably won’t notice until the next akuma comes and a new black cat appears” Plagg told him once he slipped on the miraculous.

It was really obvious how blind Adrien was to his personal desires at the moment… Felix really hoped this plan works because he really was just done with all of this. He guided Mari inside where Luka and Chloe waited “The trio is inside too… ready when you are” Luka said while looking at Felix.

He looked at Chloe and nodded making her pull out her phone “Play it now” she said and seconds later the video of little Adrien began to play and reveal who he really is, people were shocked at it and became disgusted when they uncovered that he was like this because of Gabriel… but they all became horrified when Lila was revealed… and the fact Adrien is Cat Noir.

She tried to play it off… to spin another lie but everyone was done with her and Adrien and demanded answers. All of a sudden, Adrien and Lila were akumatized into Lovers who had the power to make anyone love and follow them. Mari quickly ducked out and transformed into Ladybug while Felix hid to transform into… Shadow. He quickly went to help Ladybug… resulting in Adrien and Lila getting quickly defeated… and Hawkmoth getting captured as he was at the ball too.

He detransformed and was revealed to being Gabriel. Ladybug took his miraculous before he with Lila and Adrien were taken away. The ball then ended making everyone leave “You three can come stay in my hotel room… I mean were at the hotel” Chloe said making the three agree and went up with Chloe to her room where they relaxed and slept.

The next day, Ladybug and Shadow went to the Agreste manor and grabbed the grimoire and peacock miraculous that Gabriel had just been able to repair. They used it to heal Nathalie and bring back Emilie who not only reported Gabriel and Adrien… but confessed to everything she knew about the miraculous… and how she used a damaged miraculous on purpose to escape her psychotic husband and son at long last.

As a result… Gabriel was in jail and Adrien was sent to a psych ward while Lila was deported back to Italy for good. Paris was now safe but Ladybug and Shadow continued to patrol Paris to help where they can together. Marinette now being freed from Lila’s lies… sued the school and her classmates for everything they had put her through because of Lila.

Chloe helped by paying for the lawyer and she showed no mercy… Damocles and Caline were charged for their crimes against Marinette and her classmates all suffered for their actions… they all tried to pin it on Lila but the judge only said one thing “She never told you to do any of those things! You decided to do it on your own! She may have given you the match… but you chose to light it” he said to them explaining that Lila never made them do anything… they decided to do it.

This as a result… cost them their dreams. Reporter, director, actress, famous artist, Olympic swimmer, professional rollerblader, singer, model and many more dreams were shattered all because of their choices. Alya thought… had it worst. She was known as Lila’s best friend and so she suffered even more than the rest of the class… she couldn’t even attend college because of her actions in the end.

So, when three years passed and she watches on the news that Felix proposed to Marinette while Luka proposed to Chloe on Valentine’s Day… Alya Cesaire then understood that she had directed her anger on the wrong person… it was never Marinette who was to blame for her fate or Lila’s…

It had always been her fault… it was the classes fault from the start… like the judge said… Lila gave them the match… but they all lighted it themselves…

[familyagrestefanblog]

I truly don't want to start an argument so I'll put everything beyond the start underneath "read more" so it can be ignored by everyone who wants to do so, cause I honestly can't agree at all with that approach of "Marinette is punished for trusting people" because the way you're describing it the problem is "Marinette did something in the story, why isn't she immediately rewarded with every solution handed to her and why don't people stop being individuals when Marinette isn't benefitting from that?"

Every single point of yours comes back to the same core 'issue': the person Marinette entrusted and their life dared to not immediately entirely revolve around Marinette so she can get the most out of their involvement. That people have their own lives, priorities, and feelings that don't revolve around Marinette..."but how can that be? Why is she being punished by her not being the only person this world is about?"

Chat Blanc and Ephemeral are awful examples to use to make the claim that Marinette gets punished for trusting Adrien, because the reason why it backfired was that Adrien's own life became his doom. Marinette ain't the biggest victim here at all and it's outright concerning to pretend like she is. The insane lack of help Adrien gets is the problem and Adrien is the one being punished and victim blamed for it at every turn way more than Marinette ever could be.

Especially in Ephemeral where Marinette threw every safety measure straight outta the window the moment she found out that Chat Noir is Adrien (not to mention how respectless and inconsiderate her plan was to take advantage of Chat's trust in her in the worst way possible because she didn't wanna have an uncomfortable and truthful conversation for 10 whole seconds. It wouldn't even have long-term solved the problem of Su-Han forcing Chat to leave at any given mistake. Marinette just gave him all the power to find Chat and take his ring behind her back and made Chat more vulnerable to Su-Han coming for him and him being the one to now decide the standards he has to unknowingly uphold. If she had gone through with that plan as she wanted, it would have resulted in Chat possibly having been replaced by Su-Han basically every single day because Su-Han wouldn't be asking for her damn permission thanks to her own actions. What an awful and beyond inconsidered plan that at least ended in an appropriate disaster)

She remembered Chat Blanc, uses it as an excuse for how many other things, and forces Chat Noir to uphold the highest secrecy standard she isn't even attempting to apply to herself anymore but demands of him so she can feel better about her treatment of him, but all of that "safety" was forgotten the moment it was Adrien. But not even for good reasons. Cause that wasn't trust. That was Marinette looking into the eyes of the love of her life and supposed 'trusted' partner and deciding risking his and the world's safety is worth it to try and get the chance to be with him.

Ephemeral had nothing to do with trust, it was Marinette at one of her most inconsidered and self-centered and that's exactly how it ended. Easy as that.

The problem is not "poor Marinette, Adrien's life and abuse resulting in his isolated doom isn't beneficial enough to her :(", it's "any time the show had Marinette give Adrichat any level of real trust, Marinette proceeded to still only prioritize her personal needs and wants while hardly considering his which then results in disaster"

It's exactly the same as every example with Alya. Honestly, the fact that Alya having told Nino is being depicted here as a BETRAYAL that resulted in Marinette being awfully punished is just... that is an outright selfish mindset. Sorry, but I honestly can't believe it. It's for Alya's sake I even make this reply.

Not only did Alya tell Nino because Marinette for all of season 4 just proceeds to give Alya every secret, promotion, and resource available without even just once thinking about how much she's throwing at Alya unprepared and what sacrifices she's demanding of her on a whim, the fact that Alya told Nino straight up saved Alya's LIFE in the finale.

That was one of the worst things for me when I re-watched the season 4 finale. Realizing that Marinette thinks about Alya's safety almost just as little as Chat Noir's. Hence why I have the reading of Marinette in the french version that she's considering Alya having given up the Fox miraculous as a betrayal and having abandoned her:

Because it fits the rest of the narrative (and Fu's sacrifice REALLY can't be called him abandoning her, that's even worse than saying that about Alya), particularly in the finale, which still continues strong (if not even stronger) in "Revelation" for example.

Carapace and Rena in the season 4 finale seriously had to stand there in shame and apologize to an upset Ladybug for having considered Alya's life to be of enough value to SAVE. It is insane that Marinette is written to not having felt relief that her best friend was saved from being KILLED because instead she's upset at not having been obeyed and Alya KNOWS that not having obeyed is the more important thing for Marinette in that moment because it means Rena can't be of service anymore. That's fucked up.

By the nature of the situation, Marinette is an awful leader and friend for the fact that Carapace and Rena correctly think that they should apologize in shame because they thought their private personhoods, lives and feelings have any worth when it gets in the way of Ladybug's will.

Not to mention that it is honestly extremely self-centered, borderlining selfish, of Marinette to never once think of ASKING Alya first if she even WANTS to gets dragged into absolutely every secret and position of privilege by Marinette only to be told in hindsight what sacrifices and obligations come with that.

For people who excuse all of Marinette's shortcomings with the amount of things that just get put on her (especially now regarding the season 5 finale), it's interesting that no one ever takes any issue with Marinette doing exactly the same to Alya and then say that ALYA is a bad friend and traitor.

Alya does not owe Marinette to put her happiness, health, and relationship on the line just because Marinette decided in her head that she gets to do that. Marinette at some point just walking up to her like "you owe me to make that and that and THAT sacrifice because I say so since I told and gave you this and this and this" is not rational and justified. It's demanding and self-centered.

Marinette just...demands others to make sacrifices for her comfort while she personally does whatever adjustment and secret revealing she personally wants to have at that moment. But apparently everyone else is an awful person and traitor when they think their lives have enough value to not always act on Maribug's benefit and comfort first and foremost. How is that fair? How is demanding of people to stop being individuals fair?

Marinette was wrong for just demanding of her best friend to risk her happiness and relationship, especially when Marinette herself wasn't even doing the same sacrifice since she was single at that point. So good that Marinette at least "had it in her" to forgive Alya.

Alya did NOT betray Marinette for having considered her life, happiness, love, and loved ones to be of value, just because Marinette never thinks beyond her personal involvement in things. Which is absolutely what she's doing because this is the SECOND PARTNER she's doing this with.

It is absolutely insane to demand that Alya OWES Marinette pain, loneliness, and even DEATH and it really shows how unhealthy and bad the leadership messages are that the show sends through Marinette, but especially Ladynoir.

The Fox didn't end up in Monarque's hands because of a betrayal, it ended up there because an unfortunate but realistic incident revealed Rena's presence on the battle field to Monarque and then Alya dared to think that her life, safety, and loved ones should have enough value in Marinette’s eyes and leadership that they don't need to be put at the risk of constantly being target number 1 AGAIN - because Hawkmoth knows who she is and has attacked her and her family already - just so Ladybug can continue benefiting as much as possible.

Marinette can't demand that of someone, that's honestly tyrannical, and it says ALOT in my opinion that Marinette felt hurt and betrayed at the end of "Strike back" by Alya giving back the Fox "despite Marinette kindly having forgiven her". At least it didn't show too much in season 5, but it's absolutely still there. Again, Revelation.

The forgiveness was of beyond secondary importance in that moment. Alya was 100% in the right for having renounced and Marinette continues to be 100% selfish for still forbidding Chat Noir to exist as a civilian in her leadership just because she doesn't ever wanna face that or take anything into consideration that isn't about her own needs first. And then she turns around and complains when that doesn't lead to every benefit and reward she still wants to have. Meaning: season 5 Ladynoir.

Ladybug made it more than clear that Chat Noir's own life and needs are on the base line terms irrelevant in this professional job and that she 'unfortunately' can't be asked to give proper support, help, resources ect because she pretends towards him that she's this whole time been just as isolated as him and therefore ALWAYS needs to be given these things herself and can't share for "safety reasons" because she's that alone and important. That's how he behaves like now, but as price she had to continue barring the burden of being the only one that matters and being the one who then needs to finish the job. Those were HER terms. SHE demanded it and continued reinforcing it in season 5.

She doesn't get to now turn around and cry why Chat isn't doing her job too - as she loved seeing him do in Passion - while simultaneously he's still not getting any real support or resources from her that she gets to have because she doesn't wanna be uncomfortable. She wanted to have her cake and eat it too. That's why she didn't benefit more from her actions and that's why Adrien didn't even consider asking for Ladybug's help in London and she ended up alone. Her terms. She doesn't get to have her cake and eat it to. That's not punishment, that's normal.

Alya's life, safety and loved ones are more important than Maribug's convenience and it's an offense that she lied so much and teached Chat Noir that he doesn't even get to ask for this basic level of human dignity and consideration on the baseline terms of Ladynoir to the point where the Black Cat had been so disregarded in the leadership and guardianship Alya learned from Marinette in 2 WHOLE SEASONS, that Alya in the end was too scared and unprepared to handle the burden of wearing the Black Cat because it was just treated as basically of no real relevance by Marinette as leader, until Alya suddenly had to realize that, no, it's actually important and messed up and she never learned how to handle it so she couldn't wear it now in the season 5 finale because of her nightmare condition.

THIS is why Marinette wasn't benefitting more from her actions and why she didn't even get to have Alya by her side in the end. Chat Noir and the Black Cat were so disregarded by her in her leadership that it even fatally affected ALYA in the end, so Marinette was alone. Marinette giving out trust is irrelevant under these circumstances because her trusted people don't get everything important to work with and don't have their own needs met either since both partnerships are primarily and inherently one-sided in Marinette’s favor, because Marinette made Alya and Chat Noir into the two halves of ONE partner for season 5.

Chat Noir's 'You and me against the world' lost more and more of its meaning ever since Marinette brought Alya into the equation and then her prioritizing always being right about the team constellation escalated to the point where she basically demanded that he should have been ashamed of himself for ever having thought that he deserves (not even as much) as consideration from her as an one-off side hero. And Marinette was never written to care enough about preventing or properly undoing any of the consequences Chat Noir had to pay for it cause the important thing was that it wasn't HER. SHE was the one who fundamentally made that phrase be untrue and that can't just be ignored just because acknowledging that ain't nice for the main character feelings.

She doesn't get to turn around and complain now about not benefiting enough when THESE are the circumstances she herself created and then proceeded to waste all of season 5 and reinforce it because that's what's easiest. By the beginning of season 5 it was obvious that Alya being given all these privileges, resources, and information over Chat Noir was rendered a full on waste and wrong priority, so that's how it played out in tbe end when Marinette refused to face that and just kept on keeping it that way. Can't benefit from something that reinforces entirely wrong priorities. That ain't punishment, that's normal.

Same as Luka not being of more benefit to her before leaving. Yeah, that sucks for her but that's it. He still did alot more for her than he ever did for Adrien, so why is Marinette the one being punished? Luka didn't do more because that's how the show characterizes him because he's a parallel to Marinette in their inaction when it comes to owing up to actually important secrets towards the people who actually deserve to hear it (Marinette with Adrichat and Luca with Adrinette but especially Marinette)

She didn't benefit more because Luka is a whole human being. Marinette is not being punished by the people in her world being REAL individuals and not just herself. Adrien's treatment to validate Marinette's every little problem and emotion really led to awful messages being teached and yet the results actually check out consistently and very realistically. She doesn't get to have her cake and eat it too. She gets the downside of what she demands or is just being given. That's normal.

If Marinette wasn't rewarded for her priorities the way one expected then that's because season 4 had her focus on almost every wrong priorities on especially Adrichat's and PLAGG'S (you know, the other most important Kwami Marinette never did anything for to HELP and keep safe as guardian despite her excuse being "she's the busy guardian now") expense and then season 5 didn't do shit to have her face that to undo the harm being further done so it obviously ended the way it did. On top of her also never even trying anything to get one step ahead to find Monarque and end this war, to the point where Félix had to do all the work and spoon-feed Maribug his identity at literally 11:59pm.

A main character living in a world that doesn't revolve entirely around them is normal. The additional miraculous having been stolen for season 5 isn't punishment, it's a normal development for a hero story. Marinette lost nothing of actual value. Only the unnecessary team that wasn't her job to assemble in the first place, the partner she replaced Chat Noir with on his expense and entirely behind his back, and all the Miraculous and Kwamis non of this was ever about either.

The only two things by her side that actually MATTERED all along where Chat Noir and the Black Cat miraculous which season 5 proved by how little of a problem it ever was that the miraculous were stolen and Alya wasn't Rena anymore.

Marinette giving out trust isn't the problem. It's that Marinette then proceeds to only truly think and care about her own side of everything even to the extreme of Marinette never once caring about finding the man behind Hawkmoth’s mask besides that one time she initially thought it was ADRIEN, or what this whole war she's fighting was even about beyond how it affects her side of it.

You know what would make the Lucky Charm more balanced? Make it so that there are times where other characters figure it out, not just Ladybug. That way, it doesn't make Ladybug hypercompent and makes it possible for other people to save the day.

I don't mind Ladybug being the one best suited to Lucky Charm. I don't think it makes her hyper competent because you don't need a Lucky Charm to save the day. It's just the way that she saves the day. The other characters should have their own unique talents that let them win fights. Generally speaking, that's how strong teams work.

For a random example, let's talk about the teenage mutant ninja turtles simply because I think most people know something about that franchise. The character Donatello (aka Donnie) is the team's tech guy. He makes all kinds of inventions that help them save the day. The show would not be improved if all four of the turtles were able to take on this inventor role. I'd argue that it would actually be lessened because the characters would become interchangeable. This is something that the franchise seems to agree with as each version of the show gives each turtle unique skills and personality traits that makes each of them indispensable in their own way, which is what I think Miraculous should have done with the temp heroes.

That being said, I do think that there's a way to make your idea work. I'd just go a slightly different, more lore balancing route since Lucky Charm is technically bad lore and you all know how I feel about bad lore. So let's talk about giving it a minor tweak and how I think that would actually improve things.

Tikki is supposed to be Creation, not Luck, so the Lucky Charm shouldn't have anything to do with Luck. It should just be pure Creation where the holder comes up with a thing they want and that thing then pops up. It could also have a give and take element where the holder gets what they asked for if they want something specific, but they could also just call the power as a hail Mary and Tikki would come up with something on the fly, leading to the occasional puzzle.

This leads me to my proposed changed.

I personally think it would be hilarious and honestly more fun for Marinette's character if she could summon anything she wanted, but the Lucky Charms stay exactly the same because that's just how her mind works. Even when Tikki is helping, it's still all wacky items because Tikki knows how Marinette is and just goes with it.

For example, in Copy Cat, Ladybug turns a spoon into a hook for a cobbled together fishing pole. Wouldn't it be even funnier if Marinette summoned a spoon on purpose because she was thinking of the makeshift thing she cobbled together in order to fish up something she dropped from her balcony? Then, post fight, Chat Noir praises her like always, only to then ask, "So why a spoon and not a fishing hook?" And Ladybug just stares at him because oh, right, those are things they make. She could have done that. Ooops.

And in Malediktator where she summons a sniper rifle to get a laser pointer? Well, she was thinking about this silly comic about a cat assassin! She totally spaced on the fact that you could just get a laser pointer by itself.

Eventually, her team learns to just go with it and not ask questions. Meanwhile, the general public thinks that the Lucky Charm is some random item that Ladybug has to figure out and no one bothers to correct this misunderstanding. You can even have a running gag of new team members learning the truth and going through the acceptance process of, "Hey, you try thinking up how to set a trap while a 5 meter tall lollipop is trying to crush you! Your mind goes to what it knows, not to the ideal solution, okay???"

If we go with this setup, then other people can wield the Ladybug and use Lucky Charm effectively, they'll just use it in a very different way from the way Marinette uses it. There will also be people who are just not suited to the Ladybug since that was initially how the powers were supposed to work and it made perfect sense. Kwamis should have ideal holders along with okay backups and terrible backups. I personally think Alya would be an okay backup since she's creative, but not creative in the same way Marinette is, leading her to be a lesser Ladybug. Adrien, on the other hand, should generally suck at the Ladybug as he simply doesn't have that style of creative thinking. Which is fine. Better than fine, even! You don't want your characters to be interchangeable! They should all have strengths and weaknesses!

This is one of the show's big flaws. Since everything is on Marinette's shoulders, the other characters rarely get a chance to shine and so they feel interchangeable. For example, if gift always shows the target what THEY want, then why does Rose need to be the one to wield it? Juleka could wield it just as easily. And if Ladybug is generally the one telling Marc and Nathaniel what to summon with their powers, then their creativity is not needed. Anyone could wield the rooster and the goat! The show has completely failed to understand what makes teams memorable and so we have a bloated, boring team whose presence I'm dreading because they had five seasons to set these guys up and yet here we are.

[sturchling]

I have a request. How about Lila’s mom comes to school because Lila forgot something. And she comes to class only to see them screaming at marinette to stop being “jealous” and stop “bullying” because of another lie Lila told. Lila’s mom also sees mrs. Bustier not doing anything to stop it. So she steps in and Lila pales at the sight of her mom. Then she sets things straight and goes off on Lila for lying again. In the end Lila and the class get punished. And lila gets held back a year.

Mrs. Rossi was already in an annoyed mood. She had already been running late this morning, and needed to get to work. But right as she went to leave, she saw that Lila had left her homework binder on the counter.

She was irritated with her daughter for being so irresponsible. Part of her considered just leaving it there and letting Lila face the consequences. She left it, she can take the bad grade. But then Mrs Rossi remembered that this assignment was worth a lot and if Lila got a bad grade, it would really affect her overall grade.

Mrs Rossi decided to just take it to the school, and she would deal with her daughter later. Little did Mrs Rossi know, Lila would wish her mother had left it alone. She had left the binder on purpose. Lila had planned to blame Marinette for the missing assignment, saying that the girl had wanted Lila to fail so she stole the assignment from her on the way to school.

Mrs Rossi strode into the school and up the stairs to her daughters class, texting on her phone to try and explain to her boss why she is late. Her focus was glued to her phone, that is until she heard the yelling. When she looked up, Mrs Rossi saw the entirety of her daughter’s class, standing and yelling at one girl in the back of the class. They were yelling at her for “bullying Lila” and “stealing her homework” so this girl would have a better than Lila.

But none of this made sense. Lila’s homework wasn’t stolen, Mrs Rossi had it in her hand. Why did the class think this girl stole it? And why wasn’t her daughter correcting them? Surely she knew about her homework, so this girl couldn’t have stolen it. Mrs Rossi felt her stomach twist. She had seen her daughter finally, and she was smiling maliciously.

Then Mrs Rossi understood. Her daughter was lying again. She had done this at every school in Italy. She always lied to everyone, about everything. Fake conditions, fake achievements, anything she could think of. And she had also previously used those lies to target specific students and make them miserable. She had been expelled from several schools for this behavior, but Lila had seemed better since moving to Paris. Reticently, Mrs Rossi realized that Lila had seemed better, because Mrs Rossi had been willfully ignoring it. Now the lack of the communication from the school, and several “school closures” seemed way more troubling.

She glanced at the teacher, Bustier, but Bustier wasn’t doing anything. She was just watching the chaos, like it was some twisted show. Mrs Rossi couldn’t believe what she was seeing. Well, if she wasn’t going to stop this, Mrs Rossi absolutely would. Her daughter wasn’t going to ruin another girl’s life.

Mrs Rossi stormed into the classroom, yelling, “LILA ROSSI”. The entire class whipped around at the sudden intrusion and stared at her. Most looked confused, but Lila didn’t. She looked terrified, and paled almost instantly upon seeing her mother.

“Mom… what are you doing here?” Lila glanced around the room, completely panicked. Especially when she spotted a certain binder in her mother’s arms.

“It doesn’t matter why I’m here. What matters is you are lying again! You told your class that this girl stole your homework? You know good and well that you left it at the house. It’s right here! I thought you had gotten over this lying phase of yours, but clearly not!” Mrs Rossi threw down the binder on the sad excuse of a teacher’s desk, angry beyond measure.

Lila was stuttering, trying to think of someway out of this, as she felt the stares of her class on her. This was very bad, Lila had intended for this lie to fully turn the class against Marinette. She hadn’t expected her mother to see the binder and bring it to the school. “Mom it’s not what you think, Marinette, she… she threatened me. Told me not to bring my homework or I’d be sorr-”

Lila couldn’t even finish her lie, her mother’s anger growing with every word until she exploded. “ENOUGH! You did this in every school you went to in Italy, and I thought I got the lesson through your head this time! Clearly not! I didn’t warn this school because you seemed to understand it this time, I guess that was my own naivety. Get up, you are coming with me to the principals office! I’m willing to bet he has some interesting stories to tell me of what you’ve been up to! I wonder if you have that lying disease again, or the one about saving some random celebrity pet. It’s the same nonsense every time and I’m sick of it!”

Lila tried to stammer out protests, she really did not want her mom to talk to Damocles. But deep down, she knew it was pointless, her mom was furious and wouldn’t take no for an answer. She felt the betrayed looks from the class on her back, as they realized Marinette had been telling the truth. Lila was a habitual liar, and her own mother was confirming it right in front of them, even referencing specific stories Lila had told them.

Lila reluctantly left the classroom with her mother, dreading this conversation and the after effects to come.

And man the after effects were more brutal than Lila expected. She wasn’t expelled exactly, but she almost wishes she was. But her mother had advocated against expulsion, but not for the sake of her daughter. She did it so her daughter couldn’t pull this again at another school.

Instead, Lila was suspended for the rest of the year and as a result would be held back a year and need to repeat it. When she was allowed back, she would be closely monitored by teachers, to make sure she couldn’t get away with anything or trying to bully any students. And a note was placed in her permanent record, so that if she ever did have to transfer for some reason, her next school would be warned.

As for the rest of the class and Bustier, they didn’t escape unscathed either. Most of the class was suspended as well, just for shorter periods of time. The school was a bit more lenient with them, since their actions were based on manipulation and lies, so they wouldn’t be suspended long enough that they would need to repeat the year, but they would be suspended for a few weeks and when they got back, they would have detention for the remainder of the year.

Finally, Bustier was also given an unpaid suspension. To come back to work, she had to complete several hours of retraining on class management, anti bullying tactics, and a wide range of other subjects. Her class got a long term sub in the meantime.

Mrs Rossi may have been annoyed about bringing that binder, but she is glad she did. It opened her eyes to her daughters continuing lies. She was able to put a stop to it this time, and she would make sure her daughter would never be able to pull this nonsense again. 

[immaturityofthomasastruc]

Unpopular opinion: The narrative favors MARINETTE over everyone else, so get over yourselves if you think Adrien is being coddled or everyone else is not punished enough.

If it seems like she's being blamed for shit she didn't do, that's the narrative forcing the plot to center around her instead of someone else. If she does something that actually warrants punishment like stalking Adrien or leading Luka on, it gets brushed to the side. If she goes out of her way to snoop somewhere she doesn't belong like say, the Agreste Mansion, that's the narrative shoehorning her in instead of giving screentime to characters who needed it more like everyone who was already at the exclusive party (not just Adrien, but Kagami and Chloe too. Them along with Felix were in the same room and it's a waste the narrative didn't do shit with it). Marinette always "learns" the lesson of the day because she's the PROTAGONIST. If someone else were to learn their lesson, that's taking away from Marinette and the show doesn't allow that. If people like Chat Noir or Alya or Fu seem incompetent, it's because they needed to nerf everyone else to make Marinette shine because this is supposed to be her show and Marinette needs to be the most powerful piece in the board. If it seems like Adrien is doing nothing, it's because the show doesn't know what to do with him outside of being Marinette's trophy. He has to be "perfect" if he's gonna be a good prize, so the narrative pretends he is and ignores his less than pleasant sides. His actions ultimately don't matter. He can save the world from a giant pastry and it's just gonna be a footnote in the episode. He can "get away" with shit cause the spotlight refuses to hang around him long enough for it to bite him in the ass. He has no real power within the narrative. Everyone else has even less than him. They matter less than him. It's why the narrative doesnt say shit about your saint Luka for lying to Marinette's face about him knowing her secret identity.

It's always Marinette who has development and agency and power and can make a difference. She's not the martyr you like to paint her as. She has everything, the good, the bad and the ugly.

(The post this anon is referring to)

Okay, I will once again admit that I really phrased my response to that ask in a terrible way, and once again, I apologize for that bad take saying he was worse than Chloe and Lila combined, but I still stand by my claim that the show doesn’t call Adrien out for the things that he does compared to Marinette getting punished or blamed for every little thing she does.

Are you really going to ignore every single terrible thing Adrien has done while acting like Marinette is the real bad guy here? If not, here’s a recap of the things Adrien did in Season 4 alone...

He actively slacked off on his duties and got excited at the idea of someone almost getting akumatized, in addition to disregarding the responsibilities Ladybug now has as Guardian (Lies)

He repeatedly disobeyed orders for petty and selfish reasons (Lies, Sentibubbler, Wishmaker, Strikeback)

He refused to understand the boundaries Ladybug placed regarding their relationship (Glaciator 2)

He almost harmed innocent people, intentionally and unintentionally (Hack-San, Rocketear)

He got himself captured or brainwashed by an Akuma (Mr. Pigeon 72, Mega Lech, Guiltrip, Ephemeral, Penalteam)

He literally gave up being a superhero and left Ladybug to deal with the fallout (Kuro Neko)

He talked shit about her behind her back because he was left out of certain discussions and plans like the identities of the temp heroes, but as soon as she had no other allies, he acted like he always cared about Ladybug’s best interests. Oh yeah, and before that, he even whined about Ladybug not always trusting him WHILE SHE WAS HAVING A FUCKING PANIC ATTACK, FULLY AWARE SHE DIDN’T KNOW HE WAS CAT NOIR. (Strikeback)

And here’s all the stuff Marinette has had to go through in Season 4...

She wasn’t able to enjoy her relationship with Luka thanks to the growing amount of responsibilities in her superhero life (Truth)

She was yelled at by another Guardian who did nothing to actually help her (Furious Fu, Ephemeral)

She was shamed by Mylene for not doing enough to help the environment because I guess saving lives as Ladybug didn’t count (Mega Leech)

She had to deal with nightmares about losing to Shadowmoth (Sentibubbler)

She blamed herself for her mother getting arrested by a bunch of aggressive cops (Qilin)

She was influenced by her Kwami’s severe case of the munchies that she couldn’t control at all (Dearest Family)

She worked herself ragged trying to find a replacement for Cat Noir after being left high and dry by him (Kuro Neko)

And after learning her best friend went behind her back to not lose her boyfriend (Rocketear) she lost all of the Miraculous, and by extension, all of her other allies after being stabbed in the back by someone she thought she could trust while simultaneously being shamed for not trusting people, and need I mention the panic attack again? (Strikeback)

That’s not even getting into the routine stress of always needing to save the day while Cat Noir either slacks off in battle or sacrifices himself on a whim because he thinks her angry face is cute (Lies), or the fact that once she retires as Guardian, she’ll lose all of her memories relating to the Miraculous and her life as Ladybug (Miracle Queen).

After all that, you think Adrien has it harder? Adrien, the person who routinely screws around while lives are at risk, never takes responsibility for his actions, and will threaten to quit if he doesn’t get exactly what he wants, if he isn’t throwing hissy fits first? You think he has it harder than Marinette?

I get I said something stupid about how bad I think Adrien is, but you can’t act like he’s entirely blameless in this situation.

[sweetcloverheart]

Any idea why The Show keeps undoing/ending GabrIel victories yet in the Season 5 Finale, GabrIel wins?

Well, according to the grapevine, since the MLB airs in Brazil via Gloob and a lot of kids there whom are part of the intended target audience have parents who are currently in prison and/or have served sentences, the latter likely "requested" the former to make it so his ending was more "digestible" for them/not remind them of their current circumstances - or so I've heard.

(Edit: I've been informed that the whole "Gloob suggested Gabriel not be jailed" rumor is a result of this twitter thread from TA answering a question about Gabriel's fate, where he mentioned Gloob informing him of the above mentioned about Brazillian kids (https://twitter.com/Thomas_Astruc/status/1479946079634399236). According to Brazilian fans, however, this is not the case at all and seems to be the MLB crew "passing the buck" as it were as an attempt at damage control regarding the leaks/reactions over Gabriel's finale fate and are upset they're being blamed for the writing decisions made. While I won't/can't say if TA lied/is being partially truthful on the thread, it's clear the situation's a huge mess and neither Gloob nor the Brazillian MLB fandom are the main perpetrators for whatever choices were made for S5, so do approach the rumors with caution)

Finale + other Leak spoilers under the cut

But frankly, it was likely mostly because Gabriel is the main villain and they needed to keep him in the driver seat to help ramp up the "will they ever catch him" drama until it was time to hand the wheel over to whoever they picked as successor (i.e Lila in Season 6), especially if we take the claim of everything totally being planned from the get go as is. I think they also just wanted to move on from Gabemoth without having to address all the more uncomfortable "complicated" issues his existence as the main villain have created (what with being Adrien's dad and the magical slavery and what not) - hence they gave him a, quote unquote, "Pyrrhic Victory" that allowed him "punishment" (Not living to see the results of his Wish) while still rewarding him for his crimes "sacrifice" (Getting Emilie back and his image remaining unsullied in both her and Adrien's (and all of Paris's) eyes) and also making it the load-bearing weight of the new utopian Paris so that undoing it or telling Adrien anything about the truth regarding it is out of the question.

After all - only a complete and utter monster would want to undo the paradise Gabriel gave up his life to create for Marinette and everyone, *hint hint*

[sweetcloverheart]

While I don't disagree with your criticism, I feel it isn't taking into account that Marinette's anger toward Paris in the story is portrayed as "understandable but bad" since this fic is a deconstruction/playing Saltinette for horror, as the point is that Marinette blaming the citizens is meant to show that she (or at least the version of her pre-giving up guardianship) has gone off the deep end. Like her letters had her blaming people for getting Akumatized over the smallest things, even when the reasons were understandable/not their full fault (like Kagami and her parents). While the fic is sympathetic to what pushed her to this point, it also makes itself pretty clear that she's obvious not being rational in her anger nor should be considered such.

(Got a little rambling after this point)

And even then, the story also explains that the issue wasn't that the citizens (understandably) relied on her; it's that she felt they took her presence as Ladybug and her powers for granted, and as such refused to make actionable changes that would have eased the burden because, well - why would they need to? So long as Maribug has the Miracle Cure, anything bad that happens (either because of Hawkmoth or their own impulses) gets undone, so why do anything about their own issues or find ways to avoid Hawkmoth's influence? Andre can continue indulging Chloe's tantrums and do nothing to help prevent the birth of more Akumas, citizens can continue giving into their anger over the exact same problems and making magical contracts with the man responsible for half their issues, and everyone can keep expecting Marinette to clean up whatever messes they caused, whether she was in or out of the mask. Sure, not all of them likely believed this or felt/acted that way, and pre-amnesia Maribug could very well be exaggerating circumstances to keep her work from being undone (she did lie about the Princess Justice incident), but she clearly felt there were just too few to justify enduring any longer, especially if it took two full years for her to have a complete mental breakdown. The situation seems more a commentary about how the status quo repeats issues for the sake of placing the burden of maintaining itself on Marinette (since the ladybug miraculous is required to solve anything and everything in the show) and makes it come off like no one is learning anything from their akumatizations than the citizens "deserving" punishment for daring to need a hero because some billionaire decided being a magical terrorist and using their emotions to make villains was a better use of his time than therapy or helping his grieving son - or at least that's how I interpreted it.

Plus the Marinette in this fic is uncritically supposed to be the bad guy here (sympathetic due to her mental state and events, yes, but the bad guy all the same); Her giving Lila the Ladybug earrings is bad. Her abandoning the citizens to the new Hawkmoth and Lilabug's selfish whims is bad. The fact that they're in a timeline barrelling towards Lila becoming mayor and creating a loyal cult is bad. Her lacking sympathy in their plight is bad. Her blaming folks for being taken advantage of during moments of emotional vulnerability is bad. Her tricking Luka into getting her the Black Cat ring and having a plan in place to unreality him and remake him into her "perfect loyal boyfriend" if her does ultimately betray her is bad. Nearly everything happening in the fic is meant to be seen as bad, because this version of Marinette is so broken/damaged from her time a Ladybug (as the issues just kept repeating themselves, like a endlessly spinning wheel) that she is determined to have her "happy ending" one way or another, even if it means building on the backs of the people she once swore to protect and helping her enemy harm more people. This is a villain origin story, a tale of petty revenge gone wrong. This version is what Saltinette actually is when you strip away all the justification bias and self-righteous catharsis - a damaged but ultimately selfish girl who's willing to do whatever it takes to get hers and achieve "justice" for all the "wrongs" done upon her, consequences be damned, and we're all here to see the inevitable 12 car pile up it causes (or at least I am).

(That being said, I do think someone made a much kinder/fairer version of this story where Marinette gives the earrings to someone more responsible and things get better for everyone that's also pretty good.)

(If it isn't too much trouble) Tell me the juicy details on why you hate TwoLetters!Saltinette!

Well, after daring to read The Karma of Lies, I learned my lesson and opted to stay away from salt as much as possible, especially since the stories were from the same author. So I only read the last chapter of Two Letters, just once. But just that last chapter, and the bits and pieces I’ve heard and read from other sites, has painted a clear enough picture that I still have a good idea what it is I hate about her.

Aside from the usual behaviors she exhibits in fanfic (her hypocrisy in complaining about getting akumatized because of Lila while not doing anything substanial to fix the situation herself, ruining lives of her former friends over what’s really no more than petty high school drama, etc.), this girl, out of some warped mindset, decides to give her earrings and her heroine position over to a girl who she KNOWS is a lying, self-absorbed sociopath who will most definitely abuse the powers for her own selfish gain at the expense of others… to punish the public? I mean, at least on some level, I can understand why she wants to see her friends punished, but the whole fvckjng city?! She’s going to leave them at the mercy of someone she knows will not protect them and instead hurt them badly, and for what? Because she’s resentful of them depending on her? Well, of course they’re dependent on her, they’re living in a time when they’re in danger of literally being turned into monsters just for having emotions! I get hating that they seem to pressure her, but they have a perfectly valid reason to be pressuring her to help them when she is literally the only thing saving the, from a magical madman. I’m pretty sure common curtesy takes a backseat to rational fears.

[familyagrestefanblog]

I'm gonna be real and say that I really have a huge problem with how people are saying that the Ladynoir conflict in season 4 was great and needed for them "because Chat learned to voice his problems with Ladybug", because 1) Chat Noir already did that without a problem in the past its just that in season 3 Ladybug started to legit go on his throat and punish him for things she didn't like and that behavior/ habit came to an extreme in season 4.

Chat Noir not voicing his concerns towards Ladybug and instead swallowing down everything was learned behavior caused by Marinette/Ladybug learning the habit that she is entitled to teach Chat Noir lessons with direct physical and verbal punishments to make him behave the way she thinks he should instead of talking to him normally about it to solve the problem or in s3 get Fu to help, because in their normal dynamic there has legit never been a single person who stopped Ladybug from basically ANYTHING no matter how many lines she crossed. Marinettes approach of "solving Chats behavior issues" has already started to go increasingly downhill in s3 and it straight up needed her to outright loose him from her perspective in s4 "Kuro Neko" for it to start dawning on her that going on his throat for everything isn't the way to go. I mean the Kuro Neko ending scene still has her ignore his existence until he takes the full blame and her responding to "Chat Noir left because he didn't like being degraded into voiceless temporary hero status while I'm also being awful about it" still was "so I'm making his degradation official now but I'll be much kinder about it from now on!" which is still the same punishment technique which she also keeps til the end of "Strike back" the whole time through, but process is definitely there. I was legit surprised that Ladybug kept her hands/fists to herself in "Strike Back" because before "Kuro Neko" she would have not restrained herself while being angry with Chat Noir which brings me to

2) this is an abysmally low standard for the Ladynoir dynamic yall are praising into the heavens and I really need you to stop. Chat Noir finally not being afraid anymore to voice something Ladybug doesn't like hearing and her not immediately punishing him for it physically and or verbally but "forgiving him because she's so nice" is really NOT the golden, fluffy standard you make it out to be. The Ladynoir we saw in "Strike Back" should have always been the regular standard.

I said what I said

[mystic-myrtille]

The miraculous fandom still doesn't make sense in terms of the main ship. It's the same people under and out of a mask, I'm not even in the fandom but the salt sometimes is either funny to me or just kinda sad. Especially when it comes to the main male lead's role in the story and how the main girl's treatment in it.

You mean the discourse about which side of the square is the best one and how is was Mari//chat because that the side with their "true selves"? That discourse is so annoying, especially claims about how La//drien (which I actually liked back in the day) was the "most toxic one", as if the toxicity of a ship correlates with the presence or absense of a cat costume. I get that it's four different dynamics and based on that people have their prefered side, but at the end of the day, they're the same people and any discourse about which side is the best is pointless.

About Adrien's and Marinette's treatment, people constantly fight which one gets treated worse. In my and other Adrien salters opinion, from a narrative standpoint, Marinette is 99% of the time the butt of the joke, the one responsible for when something goes wrong and the one who needs to learn a lesson at the end of the day. Showrunner Astruc himself described it that way. Meanwhile, Adrien is literally perfect because he has never done anything wrong and the world around him is just rotten and bad. Also Astruc's word. Marinette gets punished for everything and Adrien either gets away scot free or, if he actually admits to fault, does so two seasons later whe it's already too late (in s5 he says sorry for telling Marinette not to do anything against Lila). This is very apparent in the Ladynoir dynamic, where it's fine for Chat noir to constanly make moves on Ladybug after she rejected him a million times before, but when Ladybug does nothing more but rely on some other people for hero stuff, which Chat noir isn't okay with but doesn't say a word about, she's the worst person. Idk but there are a lot of misogynistic undertones, which is quite ironic for a "girl power show"

On the other hand, some fans are bothered by the fact that Adrien has less screentime and most of the time, nothing interesting is done with him. He's apparently always busy with a tight schedule, yet somehow we often see him chilling in his room watching the news, doing literally nothing. He's also generally not very involved in any miraculous related stuff at all (but also hardly shows any interest in that so yeah). He's basically a cardboard cutout from himself when he could actually be an interesting character. Meanwhile, Marinette is directly involved in the main plot of the episode (even if she logically shouldn't) and her salters blame her on the cut on Adrien's screentime and lack of character developement. The say she gets to do things Adrien should be doing (which, to be fair, is true in some cases, esecially the Agreste family drama). Truth is, the more Adrien gets to do, the bigger the potential for him to fuck up and then Astruc can't pretend any longer that Adrien is the personification of perfection, so instead he stands around looking pretty and making a sad face so people will give him attention. That's not Marinette's fault.

So yeah, the show fails to meet anyone's expectations and in the end, everyone is equally miserable.

[ilikekidsshows]

People always say that if anyone in Adrinette is gonna break up with the other one in season 6 it's gonna be Marinette because she cant handle lying to him anymore (and that apparently means Adrien must be further punished for Marinette having the emotional intelligence and resilience of a toddler. How wonderful)

But let's be real, if Adrien were to dare to break up with her (he could even be begging on his knees that they stay close friends, he just can't be in a relationship with her) Marinette would pretty much turn into a villain. Her entire emotional stability is reliant on Adrien taking care of her and asking hardly anything in return, and facing no real consequences for her actions that Adrien just wanting to be close and dear friends with her would break that girl.

After all, Marinette spends the majority of the show whining about how unbearable it is to be friendzoned and that being friends with a crush is close to being a torturous impossibility she had to somehow manage to live through (sure, but Adrien is the incel 😒)

Not to mention how much the writing has already anchored Marinette's entire character now in the excuse that "but she MEANT well", so breaking up with her, even in the most gentle way imaginable, would be framed as the highest betrayal of Marinette's pure sacrifices and selfless efforts. I don't wanna imagine in detail how badly Marinette would fly of the handle if Adrien even just said "Marinette, I literally would love to be your children's godfather and spend the rest of my life with you as one of my closest and best friends. I just don't wanna marry you"

Like, omfg, she would straight up turn into a sociopath out of pure and uncontrolled self pitty. Her next move would probably be trying to force Cat Noir into being her boyfriend bc she cant handle not being taken care of and now she decided that having been broken up with entitles her to have Cat Noir again.

Like, no way would this girl in her morally beyond questionable writing be handling this well. Her entire character development is fundamentally rooted in forcing her way on others while barely compromising and being absolved of her blame by everyone else who also HAVE to give Marinette everything she wants no matter what's the price the others pay for it or else Marinette can't function.

What is keeping her calm ever since season 4 is getting her way and being spoiled. That's literally it. There is barely any development on her own she could fall back on. Not letting her have her way or not spoiling her has since the retooling almost always resulted in Marinette loosing her shit and needing to have the world centered around her to get better.

Have Adrien break up with that girl and she has NOTHING to fall back onto. No way she won't immediately fall back onto her rebound crush on Cat Noir the way she did in s5, where we also saw in Elation how she would take being told no by him: straight up NOT accepting it and wanting to turn into his enemy to undo whatever reasoning he just gave her for not getting to have her way.

Casual reminder that the only reason she didn't went through with that in Elation is because Cat Noir saw himself forced to disregard the only boundaries he ever got to set with her and let her have her kiss anyway, no matter how uncomfortable and bad it made him feel. And her at the end of their evening still asking for nothing but validation while HE is the one talking about being responsible. But hey, she stopped being an aggressive hypocrite about it! Yay!

Cause Marinette isn't written to care about what he wants. It's all about HER and what she feels entitled to and how much of a poor underdog she is for not always immediately getting whatever she wants the second she says so.

Good faith feels unrealistic at this point. If Adrien breaks up with Marinette, the only thing saving Cat Noir is the pg rating, not Marinette own written.

---

Yeah, like, Marinette can have the support of her parents, all her friends and even her ex-boyfriend and it wouldn't be enough. She didn't even love Luka according to the love trauma established in ‘Derision’, and she tried to pressure Juleka into keeping Luka out of his own birthday party because she couldn't handle seeing him after their breakup. She said it was because she couldn't bear how being in love with her while unable to be with her would hurt Luka, but, once again, she didn't know that was how Luka saw things, it's how she decided he saw things.

If that was her reaction to a boy she didn't even love breaking up with her. Her reaction to Adrien breaking up with her would be downright nuclear. As you said, Marinette already throws a hissy fit when Adrien dares to call her a good friend. In addition, there’s her “fake heartbreak” from ‘Weredad’, which, while comedic in its overthetop-ness, gets taken completely seriously by the other characters, and they’re never corrected on this. Marinette’s own dad fully thinks she’d have a loud breakdown over being romantically rejected and, when we take into account her other reactions in the show, it is highly likely he’s right.

Also, just like Tom was enraged at Cat Noir for breaking his daughter’s fragile heart, the entire friend group in the show are way too invested in Marinette’s romantic life, basically being Adrinette shippers by season 5. Outside of Nino, they’re also very obviously more Marinette’s friends than Adrien’s. Basically, every person Adrien’s met since he first got his Miraculous, wants him to date Marinette, for Marinette’s sake. If Adrien were to break up with Marinette, and Marinette took it badly, all his “friends” would take Marinette’s side over his, asking him why he couldn’t just be with Marinette. She’s such a nice girl and she really likes him, after all.

Like, how nightmarish is this situation to Adrien? He has to date Marinette or he’ll be at the very least “good-intentionally” badgered into doing it by almost every single person in his life. Considering how Marinette has been consuming Adrien’s meager support network to add to her own, very soon every single non-villainous character would be pushing Adrien to stay with Marinette if he ever wanted to break up with his first ever middle school girlfriend. And that's in addition to whatever Marinette would do to him in response, all the while crying about how hard she has it and no one ever loves her and we'd be expected to agree with her.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

It makes the anti-Chloe bias so obvious with Chloe being the only one getting kicked out and replaced with a prop.

It's so hypocritical to have Chloe solely blamed for Derision when Sabrina and Kim are the ones physically doing the crimes there. Chloe is just the one with the ideas. Yet Chloe is 100% blamed and punished for Queen Mayor even though Lila and Gabriel were the ones in Chloe's Derision-equivalent role (plus she was an akuma and since when have we blamed akumas?) So, if you want to be fair, then either Chloe is totally innocent of everything she doesn't directly plan or Sabrina and Kim need to be held accountable for their actions. Pick one.

As I've said before, I'm not a Chloe-stan. I don't think she needs to be redeemed or even feature in any given story. The only reason I talk about her so much is because, after season 3's ending, the show just went full hog into making her the star witness for the show's uncomfortable and consistent hypocrisy.

It's so unsettling to see Sabrina gets a permanent miraculous without ever so much as apologizing for her role in Marinette's "trauma" and Chloe's wide-spread bullying of the whole class while Chloe is sent off with her abusive mother.

Chloe hated getting her hands dirty. Almost every evil act she gets the credit for was willingly and happily carried out by Sabrina, but Sabrina doesn't get a redemption arc anymore than Felix, Nathalie, Kim, or Gabriel. She's just suddenly "worthy" because the narrative says so even though Socqueline has actually proven herself to be a hero. (Yes, Sabrina turns in Lila, but she never apologizes for her actions or shows that she's changed outside of that one act. If stopping a single bad act is what counts as a redemption in this show, then Chloe was "redeemed" every time she was Queen Bee outside of her first disastrous attempt.)

Just, what was the point of Socqueline beyond Chloe bashing and further undermining Alya and Chat Noir's narrative importance?

This will never not make me laugh

In case you don't know what this is, this is all the sightings of Socqueline Wang in Season 5. Aside from her debut, she only had like two cameos before her big moment in Derision's flashback where she turned out to be this super important figure in Marinette's life...and then she just disappears from the season altogether after the flashback is over. Right after we find out how she got suspended, she just stops showing up for the rest of the season. She doesn't even appear in the present of the same episode or even cameo in the background in episodes afterwards. She's just gone. It's like after they showed her getting suspended and this epic farewell scene between her and Marinette where she rips off the Majesta speech from Alya (Because why not steal one more thing from Alya?), they just treat it as though she isn't in Paris anymore even though we saw her two episodes ago still helping her friends. All this does is serve to prove that Socqueline's entire character is just to provide tragedy for Marinette's backstory and nothing else. I can't even say this is salt for Socqueline because this feels like the writers throwing her out as soon as she apparently fulfilled her purpose in showing Marinette having a big sad because of mean old Chloe. She doesn't even appear in the background of Revolution in protest of Chloe, which you think she would considering how much she hated Chloe. It's an instance of them just creating a disposable character purely just to prove a point and instead of keeping her in the cast, they just throw her into the bin because she doesn't serve a purpose anymore. More people hate Chloe now and that's all that matters to the writers. Screw actually developing this character who's supposedly a great figure in one of our main character's lives. As far as the writers are concerned, she already fulfilled her purpose in the narrative and that's infuriating to me because of how utterly manipulative it all comes across as.

Is this irrational? Am I too upset at the treatment of what's basically a minor character in this show? You be the judge.

[thesaltyoceanwaves]

By this point, I think it’s safe to say that Miraculous Ladybug is not about ‘girl power’.  Not in the way that’s traditionally meant.  Rather than empowering girls, it’s about disempowering them – presenting the idea of girls having any kind of power as problematic.

The series twists itself into knots blaming Marinette for everything that goes wrong, following the most inane lines of ‘logic’ imaginable.  It is far more invested in convincing its audience that she IS to blame for things far out of her control, that she is responsible for everything bad that happens.  Her, and perhaps a few other characters as well… namely Chloe, Alya, Lila…

Oh, Adrien?  Why, Adrien hasn’t done anything wrong.  How could you even suggest such a thing?  No, no, Adrien is perfect just the way he is, hasn’t made a single misstep anywhere.  There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

And what makes this all so much more disturbing is how it’s working.  How much of the fanbase mindlessly parrots the party line, cheering on her suffering and insisting that she ’deserves it’, that her misery is well warranted.  This is not and has never been a show about uplifting and supporting young girls; it is about tearing them down and punishing them for not catering to spoiled brats like Adrien.  Teaching them that this is the way things are meant to be.

What is this going to teach impressionable young girls? If you have a crush on a popular guy that other girls like, they’re are immediately your enemies. It’s natural for girls to be pinned against eachother for the stupidest reasons. Teaching girls to turn against each other and mistreat each other like the common stereotype. That their only good people if they bend over backwards for the person they like even though their crush doesn’t do the same.

It’s disgusting.

Well anon, you've essentially summed up the reason why I quit watching this show.

Like the whole ending of the season being that Marinette loses all of the other miraculouses but still has AdriChat is devastating. Like:

A. AdriChat being solely depended on is not a healthy thing. He's not going to have all the answers MariBug needs, and his perspective is limited.

B. MariBug wasn't going to other holders because she couldn't trust AdriChat - it was because the scale and intensity of their fights was getting to be too much for the two of them to handle on their own.

C. AdriChat has proven that he's not entirely trustworthy anyway - like he was pulling shit all the way back in s1, but his actions in s3 and s4 are the most telling. And unlike MariBug, who always has to learn a lesson, even when it doesn't make sense, or makes up for her mistakes, Adrien's "mistakes" don't even count as mistakes because hE cOuLd NeVeR!

Like most magical girl anime, even the ones that really lean into power of love, aren't like this. They encourage friendship and teamwork and relying on each other, not just your love interest. How ML manages to be MG-inspired but miss that entirely is beyond me.

[arty-chase]

Graveyard Siblings (5)

[Masterlink] (PART 1) (PART 4)

-----

Mari and Cass sometimes switch their suits as they have the same body type. Cass would sometimes go out in full Hellbat gear and give the appearance that Hellbat is out more often than she actually is.

So Orphan/Black Bat also sometimes uses guns.

This also helps with concealing secret identities. Maria was rescued by Hellbat from Joker’s Henchmen. (Vicki Vale was getting sus of the new Wayne and Hellbat.)

Unfortunately since Hellbat rarely comes out and she had already made all of her appearance for the month and it wasn’t a busy weekend, the public had come to the conclusion that Hellbat has a crush on the newest Wayne.

Basically everyone thought that Mari has a crush on herself. Which led to some teasing and escalated to Mari announcing that Jason had a crush on Red Hood on live TV.

It didn’t help that a video of Red Hood and Jason re-enacting Romeo and Juliet with Jason on his apartment balcony and Red Hood on the roof was posted on the internet a few days later. (Thank you, Trixx and Tim’s awesome video editing skills)

Sadly, it was taken down 24 hours later. (Tim and the others have multiple copies of it, on the cloud or hardware, hidden around in the manor and their respective safehouses in the US.)

Some people kidnapped Jason to hopefully gain leverage over the Red Hood and to their dismay and nightmares for years to come, Hellbat came instead.

One lucky and incredibly brave reporter asked why she was there instead of her brother.

Mari being a little shit, “Red Hood may be a tough and scary guy but when it comes to his feelings, my brother is a chicken.”

Pictures of Jason tackling Hellbat somehow never made it into any papers.

The criminal underworld hasn’t taken a hint and Jason has been kidnapped a few more times.

Other times Jason was kidnapped:

Robin: Red Hood made a fool of himself in front of Todd recently and he doesn’t dare to show his face.

Spoiler: He was taking too damn long checking his hair even though I told him that no one was going to see it under his helmet and he was so offended that he is currently sulking in the bathroom.

Red Robin: Red Hood can’t think straight when he is around Jason. I mean have you seen the dude.

Arsenal*during a rare visit to Gotham*: Red Hood owes me one now.

Dick finally ends it by going out as Red Hood and rescuing Jason. Gotham is happy that Redson (Red Hood x Jason) ship has finally sailed.

-------

Kate, Babs, Cass, Steph and Mari were out on Mari’s first girls’ night since her move to the manor.

This is set a little after she came back from Paris with Jason.

They watched rom-com movies, did hair and nails, gossip about the superhero community and bitch and vent to each other.

Marinette off-handedly mentioned the crazy shits she had done during her stint as Ladybug. It started with asking about the T-rex in the Batcave and she mentions jumping into the mouth of a live one before.

Everyone in the room was shocked and after a few more questions, it was obvious that she was very reckless and self-sacrificing. Yep, she was going to fit into this crazy family just fine.

And Holy Shit. There is so much trauma packed into this kid. She needs lots of therapy.

Babs finally decided that they all needed to get out and have some fun. All in their respective suits and they went out.

Joined by Harley, Ivy and Selina.

Plagg came along because I want Plagg to meet Selina.

It was a chaotic night and it was a miracle that Bruce didn’t find out about what the girls did.

-------

Batman and Red Hood were on patrol together when Selina jumped in front of them.

“Hello, Boys”

“What do you want, Catwoman?”

“I want to meet my new prodigy, Kitty Noire.”

Cue Marinette jumping down from her hiding spot, transformed with the Black Cat Miraculous. “Hiya.”

Red Hood carries her like a potato sack and points his gun at the other two.

“Nope, she’s my sister and I called dibs. I adopted her. She’s off limits.”

“Legally, she’s mine.” Batman coughed out.

“I did it first. Emotionally. She’s my emotional support sister. You have plenty kids already, B and Selina, get your own.”

“Hey, I am still here and can hear you.”- Maria

-------

Alya was worried for Lila. She had been acting weirdly for the past month.

She looked very out of sorts. Her clothes weren’t in order and her hair was in disarray. She had bags under her eyes and her eyes looked wild. Lila didn’t look like herself at all.

She jumped at any sound and flinched at really sudden movements.

Alya tried to find out what was wrong with Lila and received vague answers.

One time Lila said that Marinette is to blame.

Alya reaches the somewhat right conclusion that Marinette was haunting Lila and hurting her because Lila used to come to school with bruises and claims that Marinette did it.

Alya goes to Marinette’s grave to desecrate it. (Yeah, go anger the ghost that is haunting someone.)

Unfortunately, the moment she tries to do something, the sky turns dark, clouds appear and the wind begins whipping. A Lightning strike near her and there was a cloaked figure beside her with a scythe.

All Alya saw from the figure was the blood-red lips in a very sharp grin and glowing blue eyes, raising the scythe high before she ran away. The scythe swiped the air where her head once was.

Alya didn’t get far before she tripped and blacked out.

When she woke up, she found herself in the hospital with no idea how she got there.

She was told that somebody found her with a concussion in the park and took her to the hospital.

------

The next one on Mari’s hit list was Natalie.

She wasn’t as involved in the whole thing like Lila, Adrien or Gabriel but she still did it anyways.

Her punishment is a little mild compared to the others and was more of a warning to Gabriel.

Natalie woke up in the middle of the night to see a not-so-dead Ladybug sitting on her vanity chair with the moonlight from the windows illuminating her body and her neck. Her suit was torn exactly like the day of that battle with blood dripping down her arms and from her open wounds. The shadows kept her face hidden but glowing blue eyes stared at her.

Natalie was scared at first. But she regained her normal cool composure.

“I assume you are here to extract your revenge for aiding in your unfortunate demise. But before you kill me, I regret my part in my entire thing and I apologize for everything I have done against you even though I knew it was wrong.”

“At least you show remorse over what you have done. Visiting my grave when even my parents didn’t and leaving flowers. I love those purple hyacinths by the way. Did you know that they mean sorry in the language of the flowers?”

“Why are you stalling my death? Just kill me already.”

“Madam Sancouer. You just played a minor role in my downfall compared to what Adrien and Lila Rossi did to me. And you showed more guilt over your actions than they ever did and Adrien claimed to have loved me. And like I have told the Bats, Death is too swift of a punishment.”

“Who are the bats?”

“None of your concern. You should be more concerned about yourself.”

“Lila sees the ghosts of her past and they haunt her. Adrien is in a living nightmare and has no control over his actions and is despised by everyone. What are you going to do to me?”

“Well, since you show some guilt over your actions, let me tell you a little secret. I am not dead. Not really. I mean I did die. But there was a spell in the grimoire that revived me. It took a few days to work.”

Marinette changed to her normal form. It was a little jarring to see an older Marinette Dupain-Cheng sitting on her vanity chair like it was a throne. The Ladybug suit and the wounds were gone. She looked a little familiar.

“Why are you telling me this? What was the point?” Natalie faltered as she wondered why the girl looked familiar. Marinette moved closer and her face was fully illuminated by the moonlight.

“I intend to take everything by which I mean everything from Gabriel Agreste for what he did.”

“M. Agreste just wanted his wife back. You just gave him your Miraculous, you would still have everything.”

“What difference would it make? Sure I had friends and family before but they turned out to be disappointing. I might have become a famous designer like I dreamed of and can't achieve because I died. Besides, he never said about wanting his wife to come back in his tedious monologues. For all we knew back then, he wanted them for world domination. He showed that he would end the world for them. For kwamis’ sake, he nearly started World War III, just for a pair of earring and a ring. He was willing to kill me to have her back. No wait, he did that too. If he actually read the translated grimoire or asked the Guardian or at least someone with magic for help instead or maybe used his head and made some who can heal as his champion using the Butterfly, we wouldn’t even be in this mess. Face it, Mme Sancour, your boss is a power-hungry and very controlling maniac who is also thankfully an idiot.”

“But- he- he just-. You are just a child, what do you know? M. Agreste knew what he was doing.”

“A child who had a normal life up until he tried to ruin it with his idiotic schemes and hiring Lila to do it. A child who had to fight a war on her own.”

“I am sorry you had to go through that but I doubt you and your little revenge rampage is going to solve anything.”

Ghostly Chains wrapped around Natalie’s body, squeezing tight like it was squeezing the life out of her.

“I was all for sparing you, you know. If you had actually listened to my side of the story, you would have spared from my ‘little revenge rampage’. This is going to be a little painful. Sorry about that.” In a tone that was definitely not sorry.

Pain coursed through Natalie’s body. Her skin crawled and itched as pitch back feathers grew out of it. Her bones turned to dust and reformed.

Where Natalie Sancour once was, there was a raven.

An omen of death and destruction for one Gabriel Agreste.

Marinette leaned down towards the raven. Natalie tried to peck her eye out but Marinette held the beak in a firm grip.

“Ah. ah ah. Luckily for you this is temporary. Mostly. Every night, you will assume this shape and each night the longer you will stay in this form. Slowly counting down the days until Gabriel’s downfall. Since you love helping him so much, you are going to help him know how long he has to live. The night you are a raven from sunset to sunrise, that sunrise starts the day Gabriel Agreste will be utterly destroyed.”

She released the beak and headed towards the window.

"Send him my regards."

With that, she was gone.

(Part 6)

[theerurishipper]

You're the one who keeps missing my point. You can empathize with her circumstances all you want but that doesn't absolve her of blame. I made a post calling her out for her harmful actions and you came onto it to defend her. Good people can make mistakes and they deserve to be called out. You keep saying that you know what she's doing is wrong, but it's wrong for me to call her out?? You say you know it's not an excuse. So stop excusing her.

She doesn't "keep apologizing." She tells him she needs him, and then she continues to keep secrets from him and lie to him. Kinda defeats the purpose of apologizing huh? You say she wanted to correct her mistakes, but she did not do it. Ultimately, he ended up accepting that she's going to treat him poorly and she just never did anything to fix it. I mean lip service as in she says she considers him irreplaceable and then pretty much replaces him as her partner with Alya. That's lip service. And what do you mean "I can see she IS doing it unlike you." What am I supposed to do? Do you think I'm a character in the show? Do you think they are real people? Lmao.

Adrien says Ladybug makes him feel free in Lies, the second episode of Season 4, before Ladybug gets all controlling and secretive. But I guess you can only really make your point if you ignore everything that came after. Or if you are referring to the finale when he says it to Marinette, that is when he doesn't know she's covering for his abuser.

You keep saying "she doesn't know it will hurt him," and "she'll stop once she knows," and "she's just a kid and Gabriel manipulated her." That's all well and good, but those are all excuses. And I don't care for excuses. I will criticize her until she actually resolves it in the show. I don't think it's going to happen, and I am well within my rights to post about it. She is lying to a victim of abuse and denying him his agency and ability to make his own choices, and if you cannot see how fucked up that is, I cannot help you.

"Adrien will keep forgiving her" because deep down that's how he is towards her and you know it like stop self inserting onto him just because you want to punish marinette for lying again.

I don't want to punish Marinette. I want Adrien to be allowed to make his own decisions and express him emotions. I want him to put himself first. I want him to stop being forgiving of her over and over even though she never seems to correct her behavior. You seem to think him forgiving her over and over is some wonderful thing where she always expresses remorse and does better, and he forgives her because he trusts her but that's not how it is at all. He keeps forgiving her because he has been conditioned to believe his feelings don't matter! He's doing it because he's an abuse victim, not because Marinette apologized and fixed her mistake. He keeps forgiving her for the same mistake over and over again and she doesn't correct it, and he doesn't dare ask for more because he doesn't think his emotions are valid, and he thinks he has to downplay his emotions to make her happy! "because deep down that's how he is towards her" He shouldn't be that way towards her! It is not that hard to understand. Adrien is a compassionate and forgiving person, but it is being taken to an unhealthy extent because of the abuse he suffers, and that is why he is so unconditionally forgiving of Marinette without her even apologizing.

I don't self-insert into Adrien. I just recognize that the Love Square is toxic and that them staying together would be unhealthy for both of them. I agree that this isn't My Little Pony. Which is why simply "talking it out" is not going to be enough to fix this. They are both deeply traumatized and being around each other is only making it worse. They need to be apart to heal and then they can get back together. I don't understand how me saying that their relationship is toxic and that they need to work on themselves before giving their relationship another go is me "making this a problem."

Ok adrien would hold her accountable for lying and that will happen, are you happy now????

Yes. If it happens, I will be happy.

You told this 68798 times that "he puts her feelings first again and again and SO DOES marinette my brother in christ that's why she lied because she put his feelings first and not devastate him by giving the news at that time. Maybe the guilt would later eat her alive and she would tell him the truth who knows???

The thing about emotional support is that it is not supposed to hurt the other person. And what Marinette is doing isn't emotional support. She's just manipulating him and lying to him. She isn't putting his feelings first; she's putting her feelings about his feelings first. She's deciding things for him and denying him the ability to make his own choices. If that's her putting him first then I hope Marinette never tries to help anyone ever again. No matter what she thinks, what she's doing is wrong. Simple as that. You don't have to keep telling me her perspective because it does not matter.

I know we lost hope in writers but let's just act this is how it's gonna happen. Adrien's main goal should be to destroy gabriel's influence/legacy. His character agency shouldn't revolve around marinette alone. Also relationships can be hectic. They have a long journey of working things out. This isn't an end but you're treating like it's the end of the world. That's a you problem.

That's right. I did lose hope in the writers. Because they portrayed Marinette manipulating Adrien as a good thing, and I am pretty sure they won't address it again. They made the choice to have their main character follow in the footsteps of her love interest's abusive father. And they portrayed it as a good thing. And until I see that this issue has been adequately addressed and resolved, I will keep criticizing this narrative choice.

The problem with this is that Adrien's character does revolve around Marinette. Adrien's arc wasn't to destroy Gabriel's legacy, it was to free himself from Gabriel. It was for him to find his own identity and self-worth. It was for him to be able to break free from his abusive father. But Marinette did that for him. He spent the conclusion of his arc locked up while Marinette called out his father for him. Adrien only existed as a character so that Marinette could have a connection to the Agreste plot. Adrien only existed so that Marinette could save him from his father and claim him as a trophy for winning. Adrien's character is just being Marinette's Love Interest. His character agency is already revolving around Marinette. And I doubt the seasons with Lila, who is Marinette's antagonist, will have Adrien in the spotlight when the narrative couldn't be arsed to give him his moment in his own arc.

There is a difference between hectic relationships and ones that are outright toxic. Hectic relationships don't have one side behaving like their boyfriend's abuser. Hectic relationships don't have one side benefitting from the effects of their boyfriend's abuse at his father's hands. Hectic relationships aren't rife with codependency. And as long as the narrative portrays this as good, I will keep calling it out. It's not a me problem to point out the toxicity of the ship in canon that the writers don't want to acknowledge. It's a writing problem and I am allowed to take issue with it.

And yes. Fuck the context. Because the context doesn't matter when someone is being hurt by your actions. I do empathize with Marinette's situation, but I will not let her reasons excuse her actions. She's making a mistake and I want her to be called out for it. I don't want her to be instantly forgiven. I don't want this to be another instance of Adrien putting his feelings aside to forgive her and her never learning anything and doing the same things again. And yes, Gabriel carries the most blame for this. But Marinette carries the blame for her role and her actions. The others who are keeping the secret from Adrien are also to blame. It is not unfair or "hate" to call out the characters for their mistakes. I worry about this affecting Adrien and not Marinette because he is the victim here and Marinette is the one hurting him. And it's frankly not a good look for everyone to focus on the feelings of the one who is doing the hurting than the one who is being hurt and expecting that all should be forgiven instantly because Adrienette is canon and Marinette deserves her trophy-boyfriend.

Don't use "bad writing" card, you do not care about marinette just say that. Everyone knows this is messed up even the finale ending suggests it like THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT it is meant to evoke this feeling what is NOT CLICKING

I will use the bad writing card. Because the writing is bad. That is why I'm writing these posts. Because the writing portrayed Marinette behaving like Gabriel and everyone accepted it like it was nothing. The writing portrayed Marinette manipulating Adrien as a good thing. The narrative destroyed the agency of an abused child and said that he was too emotional to make his own choices. The narrative destroyed these two characters and that is why I am writing this post. I don't care for Marinette's actions in the finale. I do care for Marinette, and I do care that the writing screwed her over as well. What I don't care for is the way the fandom is jumping to defend this writing by regurgitating bullshit like "Adrien isn't emotionally mature enough to know the truth." I don't care for the writers straight up committing abuse apologism by writing a redemption for the abuser and portraying denying the abuse victim his independence and autonomy as good thing.

I am not writing these posts because I think Marinette should be punished or that she, if written correctly, would not feel guilt over this. I am writing this because people like you keep defending her and excusing her of blame. If you acknowledge that she's making a mistake, you'll let people call her out for it. I'm calling her out because so many people don't seem to find any issues with the fucked up thing she's doing to Adrien. I'm calling her out because the writers want to portray this as a good thing and a selfless thing. I am writing this post because I don't believe that the writers will resolve this. I don't think she will change her behavior because it is not portrayed as wrong in the first place. And I don't like how the fandom is accepting this flawed narrative for what it is and is not recognizing just how fucked up Marinette's actions are.

Lots of people are holding onto the excuse of a resolution in Season 6, but that's highly unlikely, and I don't think this is going to be brought up again. There is nothing to suggest that this is not supposed to be a happy finale and that they are setting up something for Season 6. The show was supposed to end this way before the new seasons were greenlit. And the set up for the next arc is something to do with Lila, and the Agreste arc is over for all intents and purposes. An excuse of a hypothetical Season 6 resolution that you don't know will happen does not invalidate my criticism. In fact, that's why I'm "making it a problem." Because the show won't acknowledge that it is a problem, and I don't like that. Because the show won't fix this mess, and I'm criticizing the bad writing. I am allowed to do that.

It's so funny because my entire post was about how the writers and people in the fandom always neglect Adrien's perspective about his own issues in favor of Marinette being sad about Adrien's issues. It was about how the writing and even the fandom downplays Adrien's feelings to prioritize Marinette's. It was about how Adrien's right to be angry at her is always sidestepped and the fact that he would forgive her is always emphasized because the only thing that matters about the entire situation is that Adrienette shouldn't break up, not the genuinely fucked up things that Marinette is doing to Adrien. It was about how the fandom always tries to justify and excuse Marinette for her actions because of her trauma. And you came onto my post about that to justify Marinette. You literally just proved my point. I don't know what else to say to you. It's obvious that I am not going to change your mind, and there is no reason for us to continue this discussion. Let's just agree to disagree. Have a good day.

This is just an unstructured, incoherent vent post, but I've seen a few posts recently about how Adrien would definitely forgive Marinette for keeping secrets from him because he loves her, or that he would blame himself for not noticing what was going on and not her. And those aren't wrong, per se, but this is what I mean by the show taking away Adrien's agency. Ultimately his choices are allowed only as far as they do not inconvenience Marinette or anyone else the narrative cares about, like Felix or Nathalie. Which is why Adrien is not allowed to grow, he is not allowed to prioritize his own feelings and emotional needs. Any wrong done to him is resolved by him putting aside his own feelings to forgive the people who wronged him. And yes, he has been taught that his feelings don't matter by Gabriel and that he should bend over to the whims of everybody around him. And that kind of makes it worse, how the effect of Gabriel's abuse is used to convenience everyone around him. I think it's gross.

Just look at the Ladynoir conflict from Season 4. Adrien brings up his grievances with Ladybug's treatment of him a few times, but ultimately, he ends up putting it aside to focus on her emotional needs when she is at her lowest. Kuro Neko gave us the message that it wasn't that Ladybug was treating Chat Noir unfairly, but that Chat Noir should stop expecting to be treated with respect and should stop having emotional needs. And at the end of Strikeback, nothing is resolved, Ladybug hasn't apologized to him or resolved to do better by him, but he still shows up to her side to comfort her. No, she didn't apologize to him. She admitted her mistakes but did little to correct them even after the fact. That whole arc ended with Chat Noir being treated poorly over and over, and yet coming back to Ladybug's side because he's such a good partner and he loves her so much.

And Adrien, a character who has been forced his whole life to bend to the whims of others to please them at his expense is doing the same thing to Ladybug. Adrien exhibiting this behavior is 100% a trauma response. Ladybug is supposed to be his escape from his abusive homelife. And yet, the show writes him falling back into his trauma responses with her (Kuro Neko) and does jack shit to portray it as a bad thing. And the Season 4 finale is once again Adrien putting aside his feelings and showing up to support her. Adrien's emotions are not validated, they are tossed aside. Ladybug admitted her mistakes as she did several times through Season 4, but she still did little to correct them. That admission in Strikeback doesn't do much, because we never see her do anything to fix her mistakes after that. What happened was that Chat Noir saw her in distress and decided his feelings were unimportant because she needed support.

This is not healthy. Adrien should not be invalidating his own feelings so that he can offer comfort to others. He shouldn't forget and forgive so quickly without the other person doing anything to correct their behavior towards him. Once again, this is how Gabriel has taught him to behave, to stop "being so emotional" and to conform to his expectations. And Adrien continuously downplays his own issues for others' sake. And obviously, we would understand that he can heal from this, that he can learn to take care of his own emotional needs first.

And quite frankly, all the posts about how we shouldn't want Adrien and Marinette to break up, or how we shouldn't be so hard on Marinette, or that she is just a child in tough situation, or that she is doing it out of love and that Adrien would forgive her kinda make my point. Because let's be real. What Marinette did is a serious breach of trust. I do not understand how anyone could forgive something like that quickly. And I understand why she did it. I don't think she is a bad person or anything like that. But it's still an awful thing to do. And frankly, I don't see how Adrien could just... instantaneously forgive her without invalidating and downplaying his own pain and hurt. If he did, I would seriously question his self-worth. And while I don't think Adrien would never forgive Marinette or that he would stop loving her, frankly, I would like to see more acknowledgement of his feelings and his emotional needs both from the fandom and the show. I would like to see that his feelings matter, that he is allowed to be angry and that he is allowed to hold people accountable and call them out. I would like for him to not forgive some people. I would like for him to require distance and space from them. That would be development for Adrien, to let himself be emotional and not feel the need to put his own needs aside for others.

But for Adrien to prioritize himself, it would mean acknowledging the harmful things characters like Marinette have done to him. And that can't happen, because all the purpose Adrien serves is as a plot device to connect Marinette to Gabriel, and actually having her be held accountable by the narrative for her choices is a big no no. Growth for Adrien would mean that he lets himself be angry at Marinette for how she kept secrets from him, never apologized for it, and ultimately ended up keeping the greatest secret of all from him about his father and the fact that he is a Sentimonster. But as the writing to this point shows, Marinette isn't a safe space for him where he is allowed to be himself. She is someone who also elicits his trauma responses from him. He doesn't let himself be angry with her, he always puts himself last when it comes to her.

I am not saying Marinette is in any way comparable to Gabriel. She is nowhere as bad as him, she does not come close to that in any way. Marinette is a good person. But what she did in the finale, is explicitly something that Gabriel wanted her to do. Gabriel wanted to continue to dictate his son's emotions and perceptions, and Marinette helped him do it. That's not a healthy relationship. And looking at all the Marinette-Gabriel parallels in Season 5... it's not a good look at all. The show portrays Adrien as someone who has been denied autonomy his whole life, and as someone who is expected to cater to the desires of the people around him and be perfect for them while neglecting his emotional needs, and made his arc one of finding independence and his own identity and learning that his feelings and desires matter. But also, they only matter as far as they don't inconvenience Marinette. Adrien shouldn't downplay his feelings, but if doing so would help Marinette, then he should do it actually. And it's hard for me not to see it as Ladybug benefitting from his trauma from his abusive home. It sounds harsh, but that's how it feels.

And all the talk of how Adrien would never hate Marinette and that he would forgive her is... disappointing to me. Because I don't necessarily disagree, but it still is about prioritizing Marinette's feelings over Adrien's. What is focused on is not how Adrien might feel betrayed, but how Marinette might feel sad about Adrien feeling betrayed by her, and reinforces that Adrien is so good because he would not hold it against her. Even though he should, even though it means he would be downplaying his pain massively if he didn't blame her for that. If Adrien's character should develop, he should be allowed to realize that he has the right to get angry and that he doesn't have to downplay his emotions or feel like it's all his fault. He should be allowed to do that without people jumping to Marinette's defense and excusing her of blame.

Throughout the series, Adrien has been the person to help Ladybug through her problems, and the narrative has never allowed her to do the same for him. And I want to see focus on Adrien for a change. I want to see someone other than Plagg reassuring him and supporting him, especially his partner. I want to see the narrative be less about "oh, Adrien would never hold anything against Marinette because he loves her and would understand her always," and be more "actually Adrien is allowed to prioritize his feelings and want distance from Marinette after she betrayed him in such a personal way." That would be development. That would be reclaiming his agency. That would be free will and autonomy. I would like to see focus on this in the show and the fandom.

Adrien is not obligated to forgive Marinette. He is not obligated to understand her reasonings for why she did what she did. He is allowed to be angry at her and express his hurt because of her actions. Seasons 4 and 5 have regrettably established Marinette as someone else who denies Adrien's agency and around whom he reverts back to his fawning trauma response, and quite frankly the best thing for him to do would be to break up with her and go find himself on his own terms. I want his character to develop and grow, and unfortunately, Seasons 4 and 5 proved to me that it would not be possible as long as he is around Marinette, both from a character and narrative standpoint.

I just wish people would acknowledge and validate Adrien's perspective and feelings more. Even if it means calling out Marinette. Gabe is Adrien's abuser but he isn't the only one who has hurt Adrien in the story. Marinette is an incredible and amazing person but as far as we've reached in the show, she is hurting Adrien. And she has done many things across these two seasons that violate Adrien's trust. It's not even that this is a mistake she could learn from, but that she has done several such things over and over. From keeping secrets about the Miraculous holders' identities even though Hawkmoth himself knew, to Rena Furtive, to trying to trick him into an identity reveal in Ephemeral, and now keeping the fact that he is a Sentimonster and that Gabe is Monarch from him. It's gone from secret keeping to outright lying to him. It is not healthy. And it is a sign of stagnation and regression in Adrien's growth if he continues to keep forgiving her over and over again despite her never fixing her behavior.

If Adrien's arc is about finding autonomy, then he cannot be with someone who is complicit in denying him the ability to make his own choices. If Marinette was supposed to be the knight in shining armor, they shouldn't have given her the key to the tower and have her hide it away. If she was supposed to save him, they shouldn't have had her condemn him further. If Marinette was supposed to be the one who helped Adrien regain his self worth, the person whom he could trust and rely on the most, they shouldn't have made her side with Gabe, deny Adrien his agency, and violate his trust so many times.

It didn't have to be written this way, but these were the decisions made by the writers. They chose to portray Marinette like this for no discernable reason and refused to acknowledge it or deal with it meaningfully. Adrienette is so profoundly unhealthy now that if Adrien's character is to grow, the only way for him to do that is to break up with Marinette. But the show has also made it very clear that Adrien is only a plot device and a trophy for Marinette at the end. So I have no doubt that all will be forgiven in a matter of minutes, and the narrative will praise Adrien for being traumatized and denying his own emotional needs to comfort Marinette as she feels bad for hurting him. And it's sad, but I guess it is what it is.

[iwasbored777]

I don't get the Marinette Antis or most of them.

They claim that Marinette's the worst person on the show... But also say "If Marinette gave Chloe another chance after EVERYTHING she put her through, Chloe could've had the greatest redemption arc EVER!"

So they want who they think believe is the worst person, to reward an actual bad person for doing the bare minimum with super powers AFTER almost killing a bunch of people with said powers?!

My brain hurts!

I didn't make this, this and this post for nothing...

To most people Marinette is only worthy in if she takes care of other characters and if any other makes a mistake too it counts as Marinette's mistake. It's not even the show that makes it like this, it's this crazy fandom. But also Chloé stans can be so ignorant sometimes that it's hard to take them seriously so I stopped taking them seriously. I honestly didn't even consider that Miracle Queen will earn Marinette salt when I watched it for the first time, because the girl suffered A LOT in that finale, but it still did.

Apparently rough childhood is a good reason to team up with a terrorist. The same way people keep defending Félix. What Chloé and Félix and also Lila do is their choice. Marinette didn't tell them to choose to destroy the world with a terrorist, they knew what they were doing. Sorry for mentioning these two but I wanted to compare her to them for Chloé's character:

Lila didn't just help Hawk Moth because she was angry with Marinette/Ladybug (which was also a dumb selfish reason), Lila also teamed up with Gabriel to keep an eye on Adrien. Marinette gave Lila chance too. Lila agreed on both terrorism and abuse of her "crush". This is not just a rival of Marinette, this a messed up girl on a whole new level.

Félix knows what Gabriel is capable of and he knows what he's doing to his son yet he still let him win. Have in mind that Félix wanted to betray them all along, it's not just sentimonsters being sent into the sun, he had this plan all along. If Ladybug didn't sent sentimonsters into the sun he would still do it. Maybe that's why I ship him and Lila so much, they are literally the same person.

Chloé mostly did it for her social status. She never stopped bullying her classmates while being Queen Bee, she thought wearing a costume is enough to make her a hero - it's not. If Chloé was this quick to turn to Hawk Moth that means that her loyalty to Ladybug has never existed in the first place. People salt on Adrien for giving up his miraculous but imagine if THIS is what Chloé did instead of imprisoning the guardian. This just a proof that she wanted to be in the focus somehow and when she got kicked out of one team she went to the other one. Now she wants to make sure Adrien doesn't end up with Marinette more than anything because she has nothing now. She can still change tho and I would support her if she does but she has a long way to go and she has to actually try more. Even if she doesn't change completely which is not always possible I would love to see her try and I would support her. Chloé doesn't need a reward nor punishment, she got punished for it by never being Queen Bee again and Adrien ending their friendship, what Chloé needs now is to realize she was wrong and try to become a better person. Being a good person means not asking for anything in return, which is opposite of what Chloé did. She wanted fame, she wanted a reward. She wanted people to know who she is under that mask and love her.

That's why for betrayal you only blame the person who betrayed you. If they didn't like you they should've just break up with you and move on with whoever they want. When someone cheats on you with this other person it's not about this third person at all, they would cheat on you with others too, believe me. Chloé could've just walk out but she chose the hard way. And she keeps talking about how Ladybug failed her while being mean to everyone, which only further proves that Chloé wanted power, not a real friendship. It's not even Hawk Moth's fault that she did this, she was given a choice. When Marinette fails or when someone let her down she either turns the other cheek or she change her strategy, she doesn't blame it on anyone else. Chloé had to deal with consequences unlike Lila and Félix but Chloé also didn't regret her decision like these two.

I love how Chloé's character is written, you know? After so much analysing I STILL find new details and I'm so amazed by how deep her character is and how it divided the fandom but I hate how most people don't understand her. Yes, I sympathise with her sometimes, yes, I understand why she did what she did, no, I wouldn't do the same and, no, I can't blame anyone because she is the only one to blame here for her actions.