#p5 discourse

[somethingpersonarelated]

On simplifying Akechi

My brain was ridden with these ideas people have about Akechi that piss me off a little. Mostly ones that say he is "just crazy" or "just hates Joker." There's countless metaposts countering these arguments (and they are absolutely wonderful) but I often wonder WHY simplifying Akechi down is so appealing, even to people who are fans of his character. I can't say I've never been immune to simplifications of his character either, and I feel like that's important to admit. I don't even think it's necessarily a bad thing, but I was wondering about that why question.

TW: Discussions of mental health and child abuse

Source: A high schooler's holiday from the P5 Comic Anthology (read it here!)

I do think it's hard for all of the little things Akechi's character builds upon to be conveyed through a single playthrough. If you go in blind or don't finish his confidant, you may only get that surface level exploration of his character. Base Akechi is flashy and still gets the point across that it needs to: he's a foil to Joker and the PTs. However, by missing out on his social links and special events, you miss cultural, relationship, and personal context.

Many words have been said about the translation, particularly in the engine room, being faulty in areas. But some people still don't understand that Akechi's plan isn't to kill Shido, even when the text makes that clear. There's also this scene with Shido, which reads more as an exposition dump in a long section of the game most players will either tune out or skip. Not everything you see will always stick in your head, and Persona is a LONG game. I feel like it's easy to forget people just... forget canon sometimes. It's easier to put these details aside and say Akechi isn't affected by the system he's raised in. But the reality is, you miss what Lavenza says about Akechi's role, you miss that one exposition scene, and you miss the confidant: you believe Akechi had much more autonomy than was actually true. In conversations I've had with people IRL about Persona, 2/3 either skipped or did not finish Akechi's confidant. It isn't improbable, playtimes can range from 100-300 hours, most playthroughs take weeks. People will forget things. It isn't a maybe, it WILL happen.

When the game feeds you so much information, it's also easier to take what the characters say at face value. Doing this with Akechi will bite your ass. Those words in Rank 8 are directly expanded upon in No More What Ifs, the engine room, and 2/2. Maruki and Morgana confirm Akechi doesn't hate Joker, but you never hear Akechi say it himself. To me the game beats you over the head with this information (as the game has a tendency to do for certain situations), but I've also been in the rabbit hole for over a year now.

There's also this idea that recognizing that Akechi was set up by Yaldabaoth, his upbringing, and Shido means that all the venom is taken away from his actions. That isn't true, and Akechi holds to that in third semester. He doesn't give himself any grace for the situation he landed in, wanting to take accountability for it when it is undone without his consent. Akechi is by no means a perfect victim, and he doesn't believe that either. Recognizing that he had no choice, it was either homelessness and neglect or the plan he conjured himself only brings to light the tragedy of his situation, not whether his actions were morally incorrect. He wanted his father to be in his life, and he wanted his father to suffer. He wanted to have someone like Ren in his life, and he couldn't have someone like Ren because his plan would be jeopardized. It's a series of choices, some of which are forced upon him, some of which he chooses himself. That is an important distinction to make.

There's also this idea that Akechi is 'just crazy,' or never suffered from abuse or events that affected him long term. That he doesn't suffer from unspecified mental health conditions or trauma, and chose everything with a clear mind. When someone brings up this argument, it's usually in response to people talking about his life experiences. That somehow, the existence of trauma or a condition is an excuse for whatever he did. There's a double standard here: Akechi is someone who suffers from a condition that makes him 'plain crazy', simplifying his entire motivation and role in the story, while also removing him from the context of his mother, Shido, and his experience with the foster system. Actually interacting with these facets of his character brings to light the challenging things the story asks you to think about when it comes to Akechi: Is he a victim? Is he like the Phantom Thieves? What about his situation informed his choices? Interacting with this requires effort and an actual acknowledgement about what it means to be someone that suffers from trauma. Calling him 'plain crazy' not only is in disservice of textual analysis, but more importantly incorrect (and frankly, it falls straight into ableist tropes about mental health).

Sometimes internet debates/discourse lead to simplification, even just random headcanons may lead to simplification. That isn't always bad. There are many ways to say what I said here in fewer words. I, unfortunately, am not skilled enough to do that. But some of these simplifications lead to entirely incorrect judgements about a character, or even about mental health issues. When that happens, I wish people would learn to reflect about what that means when they interact with a piece of media. Or even with other people.

tldr: people should learn to say they just don't like things instead of coming up with excuses that make no sense. basically

[adam-sadmon]

So it's weirdly nice when you see a take so dogshit on this site that it actually makes you sit down and think critically about a piece of media you love just to prove those little bastards wrong.

[themsmeep]

Fandom pet peeve: It's a running joke that Akechi misquoted Hegel, but it's not true. He specifically said he was paraphrasing Hegel.

Quote = repeat someone's words.

Paraphrase = restate someone's idea in different words.

There are so many legitimate reasons to make fun of Akechi. We can do better than this. 😆

[naarlar]

I don’t get akeshu / shuake at all.

Like I get it from a typical “fandom loves the enemies to lovers trope” perspective but in all honesty I don’t get the insane brainrot the persona 5 fandom has for this ship.

Like do I think Joker cares for Akechi? Yes.

Do I think he was genuinely conflicted/tempted by Maruki’s ultimatum? Yes.

Do I think they have a genuine relationship and see a lot of themselves in each other and actually somewhat understand each other? Yes.

That being said, I really don’t see how anyone can look past the fact that Akechi tried to kill Joker. And okie fine enemies to lovers, fandom’s favorite ship aside, I don’t see how Joker can actually want a full on relationship (like romantic) with this dude when Futaba, Sojiro, and Haru are like right there?

This may just be me but I reallllllllly wouldn’t be friends with someone who is friends (hell forget even in a romantic relationship) with someone who horribly hurt me.

And I don’t think Joker loves Akechi more than Futaba, Sojiro, or Haru. Especially Sojiro and Futaba. Those two are like his family, and Akechi is responsible for their suffering.

Like… it’s kind of one or the other. Joker can’t be friends/dating Akechi without horribly betraying Futaba, Sojiro, and Haru. That’s just how I see it (but I’m open to hearing other perspectives!)

[fuubee]

another drawing meme but violet has BEEF

[kaurwreck]

I'm sincere when I say I don't know how y'all have the energy to scrutinize Mori treating his successors like they're competent when the Port Mafia's skill users have been culled thrice over within seven years by men who can't act right (Rimbaud, Verlaine, Shibusawa, Gides, Fyodor), and the longevity of the tripartite framework relies on Mori not patronizing who's left.

Especially considering, like, there are foreign military police in modern Japan, British Somaliland appears to still exist, and Ango has seemingly kept Taneda in a medically induced coma for an irreversible amount of time so that he can unilaterally leverage Taneda's fictional authority within a very-historically-real cabinet in the Japanese government that hasn't existed irl since the Meiji constitution.

Like, I'm not asking anyone to engage with media in any other way than the way they enjoy most. It's just. Has anyone else noticed bsd!Russia appears to have annexed bsd!Abkhazia and bsd!South Ossetia.

All of this to say: you don't really have to beat the same dead horses if you don't want to. If you do, then by all means, lay into Equus with your whole chest. But, also. There's a lot in bsd the fandom scarcely, if at all, touches, and the incongruity between the work's layers and worldbuilding and even niche fandom engagement with the material is stark.

[we-ezer]

i remember in high school when my “friend” tried to convince me against liking akechi and spoiled that he shoots joker and i was like “so??? i forgive him lol (and that makes it even better)” i knew my tastes even then

[megaderping]

Saw a rather mean post last night, and genuinely, I do not understand how people can play Persona 5 (particularly Royal), and come out thinking Akechi genuinely hates Joker when Morgana outright states for the audience, "You don't really hate Joker, do you?" Akechi laments how they didn't meet a few years earlier and how they could've been "great rivals, perhaps even friends." o_O Like... is this a vanilla thing? I genuinely don't get it. The interrogation room wasn't even his idea (SIU director mentions as much). It's not even about the ship- the game spells out that their bond is more complex, and it just so happens that a lot of people like to explore it as one. Even as platonic, tho, there's a shit ton of depth. Idk, any time I see discourse (especially people making fun of Shuake fans and stuff), I just question how many people actually paid attention to the dialogue. Even the "I hate you speech" reads as him being extremely emotionally constipated and conflicted. Plus, y'know...

Very hateful. Sure. :p Idk, maybe certain playthroughs of the game remove all those moments where the game spells out that they have a special bond (Maruki even states it isn't based on hatred, but that's only if you get his third awakening). Just wish people would get off their high horses, if anything. Sometimes I see people get really condescending about liking Akechi or liking Shuake, and like... just block the tags if you don't like these things instead of posting untagged ship/character bashing and making fun of fans? At least have the decency to tag it as something that Shuake fans can filter because some of those posts are really mean-spirited. :/ You think we haven't heard it all before? I may be new to the fandom, but I have heard that this BS has been going on for years.

I don't think it really matters if there are "healthier" ship options because some of us prefer the messiness, the depth, and complexity. It's not for everyone, and I respect favoring more straightforwardly sweet and wholesome dynamics or wishing your favorite pair got more spotlight. I'm a Riku and Kairi shipper in Kingdom Hearts, for crying out loud. :P I get it, but you're not gonna win anyone over to your side by telling them that [insert ship here] is better. In my case, it makes me more averse because of how deeply their relationship in the confidant, engine room, and third sem touched me and seeing people go "yeah, but you are wrong for feeling that way, THIS is better" is just... yeah. :/ (Also, people gotta learn the difference between hitmen and serial killers. Akechi is the former, which I've ranted about before, but yeah.)

So many fandom problems could be solved if people didn't take the piss out of others for shipping something they don't personally like. x_x; By all means, feel the way you feel, it's okay to not like things.

[mayadoesfandomstuff]

I don't care much for the persona protag name discourse because it's really just a matter of preference on which you like better but one of the funniest arguments I saw against using the name Akira Kurusu was that there was now a character named Akira Konoe after Strikers released so you shouldn't give the protagonist the name Akira anymore, and like it's so obvious that this person has not played Strikers at all.

I mean first of all, people can share names like have you not met multiple Johns or Marks or whatever the most common name is in your country? Akira is a pretty common name in Japan believe it or not so it's like arguing that you can't name another person Steve because that name's taken.

Second, having Joker share the name with one of the main villains of Strikers is so thematically good like he has to fight a guy who has the ability to change hearts and tries to run around and play hero because he believes that society is corrupt and he could be the only one to save it and they share the same name too???? Like???? The drama???????

Imagine that you're saving people by playing a cocky hero in the collective unconscious and then one of the big bads you've been trying to bring to justice for the entire month also share your name and the moment you step in the jail you hear applause for the hero name Akira, but they're not talking about you, they're talking about that bastard that framed you for murder, kidnap a young girl, and tried to kill your friends, while parading around that he's controlled the entire country.

He's also not doing this as just a personal power trip (although that's part of it quite a bit), but he truly believes that this is the best for society. He believes that to bring about justice, he has to change hearts just like you do, but unlike you, he's choosing to take away people's free will instead of giving them that freedom like you and your friends have been trying to do.

Almost as if he's some darker reflection on what you could've ended up as if you traveled your path to justice alone. Overtaking the free will of society in order to deliver them "justice" just as that false god had tempted you just eight months before all this. All the while you share the same first name to remind you of all this.

You walk through his false manifestation of justice as the crowd screams for "the great hero Akira" while calling for the extermination of your friends. It's almost a mockery.

This all, of course, aligns really well with the theme of Strikers where each monarch representing a somewhat parallel to the thieves and what they could have ended up with if they gave in to despair and isolation.

Konoe is a parallel to Joker. Them sharing their first name actually adds rather than detracts to the narrative. It reminds Joker of what he could become if he lets his ideals surpass his humanity.

Again, I don't really care about the name discourse and I'm not against the name Ren Amamiya (I actually quite like it too at times) but like, Akira Konoe existing is one of the weakest arguments against using Akira Kurusu as Joker's name in my opinion.

[akechi-if-he-slayed]

morgana hate makes me so mad THAT IS LITTLE BROTHER !!!!

[lacystar]

now I haven't finished her confidant but in my perfect world, Ann's story is about her regaining her sexual autonomy and embracing her seduction as a weapon rather than a weakness, becoming a black widow that makes her feel powerful in the way that kamoshida made her feel powerless. flipping what was used against her as her primary weapon of choice that gives her a unique edge against the enemy. however, given what ive seen and the whole Yusuke shit, im getting the sense that this will not be the case at all actually and that she will just continue being eye candy to the other male characters and weird game devs who are hypocritically turning her source of genuine trauma into the butt of jokes and sex appeal. she's sixteen

[maiamaiden]

the only thing i love doing more than gatekeeping persona is gatekeeping HATING persona. if ur criticisms of persona 5 are the most barebones "it's popular and cringe", if you haven't PLAYED it, nonono you are not allowed to be here

[freakcliff]

thinking about phantom thieves twitter. phantom thieves fans must have been like. the worst people on the internet (complimentary)

[apr1lias]

Anyways does anyone remember when C*rlos fans said that the standings don’t lie… yeah they definitely didn’t they were right on that one!

[tricksterlatte]

ngl this is just a silly post I made while goofing around, but finding out the two sides to this newfound issue are either "Akechi is a Norse mythology nerd and goes online to write essays on how badly Marvel messed everything up" or "Akechi actually kins MCU Loki due to his own relationship with Shido and his mother versus MCU Loki with Odin and Frigga" is actually hilarious.

If Persona 5 begins during 2016, this would mean Akechi previously awakened to Loki during the prime time of MCU Loki being a tumblr sexyman. Do whatever you’d like with that information

[wisteriagoesvroom]

https://www.tumblr.com/wisteriagoesvroom/765425050649231362/what-happened-between-carlos-and-oscar-in-the-gap

Can you list the clues we have? 🕵️‍♀️

I am not sure I know what all happened but I’m ready to put my RPF brain into it 

i don't have many clues, but here are some thoughts if we wish to put the capital F in rpF:

🇸🇬 singapore

iirc, oscar was the one who roared past carlos in quali and carlos somehow put it in the barrier during q3 in singapore (oscar was the "another car"):

from

so in singapore, oscar qualified p5, and carlos in p10.

oscar ends the race p3 / podium, and carlos in p7

cue 3 week break, then, cut to:

🇺🇸 austin

oscar has a lacklustre sprint quali (he qualified so bad i had to zoom so far out to get the screenshot, rip). carlos starts austin sprint in p5, oscar p16.

oscar ends up fighting his way in this sprint to p10, vs carlos's p2 finish.

oscar drives relatively hard in the austin sprint, incurring a 5 second penalty for pushing gasly off in the process, and manages to hold yuki behind him. i say relatively 'cus he's still pretty clean, but he was scrappy here.

THEN, carlos defended oscar, fully on the record, in the face of the FIA penalty. which he thought was "harsh" on oscar...

much to consider...

from

later. carlos starts p3. oscar is side by side on the starting grid in p5.

carlos finishes p2 there, oscar p5. fairly uneventful race for oscar. not the case for carlos, where iirc ferrari allowed the two red cars to fight.

results from

then...

🇲🇽 mexico city

and BOOM for some reason by mexico city practice they are beefing again. but wait! what's been happening in the background?

my rpf mind says oscar is grumpy because he was denied the additional mclaren upgrades, where the team has prioritised lando. add in: helmut marko dragging oscar's name into the media discourse to mess with zak (who is busy defending lando's position as Prized Top Boy because helmut decided to play mind games with all of them as part of the driver and constructors' championship fight. max haunts the narrative).

from

meanwhile!! carlos is coming to the end of his ferrari run, the end of one of his childhood dreams. (launching his own karting business this year was another one - side note, interesting shift in PR strategy.)

anyway, he didn't win austin like he probably wanted. but, he's kind of doing excellent in mexico. i am not as familiar with ferrari's overall dynamics tbh, but it seems like he and charles were also openly at odds with each other over strategy again at some point in austin (??):

screenshot. + austin writeup from.

so BACK TO MEXICO CITY! where we are now. i think oscar thought carlos was in the way in fp3? which resulted in this lil throwaway snipey comment from oscar:

from

maybe it's a one-sided beef from oscar @ carlos atp. but one thing about carlos is he will NAWT back down when someone bares his teeth at him.

therefore. carcar is like. so fully back y'all.

and as a footnote. or maybe not a footnote actually. it's just. kind of. very funny. when carlos has ended up on pole / p1 in mexico city quali. meanwhile oscar is p17 behind...a sauber.

like. i love that australian twink, but this is kinda hilarious ngl. piastri + americas = no bueno.

make what you will of these. my third eye is OPEN 👁️👄👁️